النص الكامل لحلقة Breaking Down the Evil Mind of Christa Pike

00:05:27.759 --> 00:05:35.680 It can harden you, it can make you feel completely incapable of forming a normal human connection to somebody, or you're too afraid to, or whatever. 00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:41.199 So that there can be this dissociated, detached way of dealing with connections to people. 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:58.160 And what I think is in that moment when I when everything just sort of exploded out of her, I certainly don't mean that as an excuse, there were things that happened that really showed how much rage uh mixed with fear of abandonment and loss, I think, was present in her. 00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:09.839 And what you see is, you know, a box cutter being used to cut the belly of the victim, the fake the throat being cut, the the boyfriend carving a pentagram in her. 00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:14.079 And then the most horrendous thing of all, retaining part of the skull. 00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:14.480 Sure. 00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:21.279 And then boasting, boasting that she was going to use it to eat her cereal, uh, you know, that kind of thing. 00:06:21.439 --> 00:06:29.040 So, but what I have always thought about her was that this was an attempt to convey, I'm not no one's gonna hurt me. 00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:31.120 I'm cold, you know, that kind of thing. 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:37.680 Now, let's say she was some kind of horrendous monster, you know, psychopath, serial killer, whatever. 00:06:37.839 --> 00:06:44.160 We would have expected to see behavior from age 18, when she did that on the whole entire way through her entire life. 00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:50.000 We would have seen prison life characterized by every manner of that kind of behavior. 00:06:50.160 --> 00:07:11.199 But instead, what it looks like is more consistent with a person who in youth does some angry, outrageous, over-the-top, hideous thing, but then like, you know, thirty-two years have gone on and it has eventually started to say, I don't know why I was able to do something like that. 00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:13.839 Growing up, she grew up a little bit. 00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:14.639 She grew up. 00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:15.680 She was 18 years old. 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:27.519 And and and and and right now, but let me be clear to your audience, absolutely clear, that I do not mean any of that as a way of saying there's a justification, an excuse, I don't because what she did was so horrendous. 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:32.639 But what I'm getting at is that you have to take things in a context of that there's always a why. 00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:33.279 Right. 00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:45.040 And and I and you and I'm saying to bring her to life is a fuller picture, because life is not the movies where the bad guys wear black and you know are always obvious. 00:07:45.519 --> 00:07:52.720 People can be human beings that do really horrible things, but they it's we don't say that the person is evil. 00:07:52.879 --> 00:07:55.279 We say that they did an evil thing, right? 00:07:55.519 --> 00:08:01.279 Because the it would be very difficult to find a person who day in and day out, from the minute they wake up, does evil things. 00:08:01.519 --> 00:08:05.680 I mean, I'm aware of serial killers that, you know, were good fathers. 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:06.160 Right. 00:08:06.399 --> 00:08:06.480 Right. 00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:08.240 All right. 00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:09.120 So let's do that. 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:10.879 So anyway, I want to be complicated. 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:17.199 I want to get into some of the specifics, and I have some of the instances of the conduct and the statements, and we'll go through it. 00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:22.879 I got a I've got a bunch of them, but I I yeah, I think it'll give everyone a better idea here of what we're talking about. 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:24.319 And you've mentioned some of this stuff. 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:32.320 We look at the premeditation that she carried weapons with her, including the box cutter, a rag, and a miniature meat cleaver. 00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:32.960 Yeah. 00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:37.840 She was out to to scare the crap out of her, hurt her, torture her, whatever. 00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:41.840 Uh she she this woman, in her eyes, was a threat. 00:08:43.279 --> 00:08:44.159 Absolutely. 00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:47.360 Now, we get to the motive, and you've you've talked about this as well. 00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:59.440 Pike claimed she was jealous of Slemmer, believing Slemmer was trying to steal her boyfriend to Daryl, and initially claimed she only wanted to fight Slemmer to tell her to leave me the bleep alone. 00:08:59.919 --> 00:09:02.159 Um That's what she says. 00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:03.360 That's what she says. 00:09:04.399 --> 00:09:11.679 If that's true, how does it go from that to this horrific, horrific event? 00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:18.000 Does something happen in your mind in the moment, if in fact this is a true statement from her? 00:09:19.120 --> 00:09:34.799 Because especially when people are overwhelmed with jealousy or rage, and especially if they're dysregulated and have you know executive issues or whatever, we don't know in her case, and uh they they can overblow what it is they originally tend to do. 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:50.000 It's like the person who wants to eliminate a family member with a with a knife, you know, and stage it to look like someone came in and killed the person, but then they stab them like 55 times because they're so angry at them that that they overblow it. 00:09:50.159 --> 00:09:53.200 You in the moment you know it starts to pour out of you. 00:09:53.360 --> 00:10:08.320 Now, in my writing and in Michael's writing, we make a distinction between jealousy murders that are more completely impulsive and ones that are more plotted out, where you bring weapons with you and you do more cruel kind of stuff. 00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:08.639 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:10.879 And she was allegedly lured

here, too, right? 00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:15.519 There they told her, hey, we're gonna go out and smoke some weed or something out in the woods. 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:16.240 Right. 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:22.080 This looks more like a a premeditated kind of thing where you know you're gonna do something very cruel. 00:10:22.159 --> 00:10:27.360 It's not like you're sitting in a bar, you get jealous, you know, you beat the crap out of person and they die. 00:10:27.519 --> 00:10:35.919 You know, this looks more like a plotted thing that does take some scheming and cruelty to kind of do. 00:10:36.399 --> 00:10:48.559 But but but you know, I think that it went probably farther than initially intended, but I think that there is no question that there was a premeditated element where something terrible was supposed to happen, right? 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:57.679 So, like the two cases that I always compare to teach this point about jealousy murders, and I'm gonna give you the encapsulated version, okay? 00:10:57.840 --> 00:10:58.240 Is that okay? 00:10:58.399 --> 00:10:58.720 Oh, yeah. 00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:00.559 If I give you a very quick snapshot, okay. 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:02.159 I think the audience will find it interesting. 00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:12.080 So one case, which is a very classic jealousy murder where it truly was impulsive, is a case that there was a man named Samuel Collins who was in Maine. 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:28.320 He had he had an incredible deep love of his significant other, had her sort of on a pedestal, and he went to visit her at the supermarket where she worked, surprised her with flowers, and caught her sort of making out with a coworker. 00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:47.440 So he like goes home silently, waits for her to come home not long thereafter, and stabs her to death and cuts his own wrists, immediately calls his mother, expresses remorse, can't live without her, whatever, you know, and in his incarceration and all that, it reforms himself, never does anything like that again in his life. 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:54.879 It was a totally impulsive, you know, like what they call in France, you know, the clim passionnel, a complete crime of passion. 00:11:55.440 --> 00:12:15.759 Now, this other case we compare it to is a different jealousy murder that involved a woman named Else Clautemann in Belgium, who was in a thrupple, essentially, with a diver, a skydiver and another woman in the skydiving troupe where they would take turns being with this same guy. 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:18.879 One day a week you're with him, next day I'm with him, whatever. 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:22.320 I never knew what the fuss was about, but they had this crazy thing with him. 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:22.720 Okay. 00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:33.919 So what happens is one day, Els Clodeman has to stay at the apartment with the other two while they're making love in the other room, and she hears it and is furious. 00:12:34.159 --> 00:12:37.279 They're gonna go in a skydive a week later. 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:45.840 So, in the cool light of reason, she severs the release cord on the parachute that the other woman's gonna use. 00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:55.519 And a week later, they go in the skydive, and Els Claudeman, with a camera attached to the helmet, films the woman dive out of the plane to her death. 00:12:56.080 --> 00:13:09.039 Both of these are jealousy murders, but the difference is that in the first, it was total impulse, where the person was completely overwhelmed emotionally, emotionally immature, just sort of had no coping skills, couldn't live without her, did his thing. 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:17.360 The other one is cruel, meticulous, and the way she died shows the extreme hatred and the rage. 00:13:17.679 --> 00:13:21.759 Now, this Krista Pike thing has always felt to me more like that. 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:24.159 Cruel in the cool light of reason. 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:32.159 You bring a box cutter, you bring the rag, you bring the boyfriends in on it, the two of them go there knowing damn well some horrible thing is going to happen. 00:13:32.399 --> 00:13:43.679 So there's no denying that it was passionate and jealousy-based, but there was time taken to plot so that there's an awfulness factor. 00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:56.320 And then there were all these extras that things that weren't necessary for the commission of the crime that showed this extreme hatred and that thing of keeping the part of the skull and the pentagram and all of that kind of stuff. 00:13:56.480 --> 00:14:02.399 So there is no question that it was a hideous act plotted out with malice aforethought and everything else. 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:09.279 I don't know if they intended to kill her, but certainly intended to do something horrendous, at least scare her, torture her, or whatever. 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:24.399 And then, you know, a lot of years go by and people are sitting in a jail cell and a prison cell and they contemplate and they think their emotions burn low over the years, you know, and then they think differently of things, right? 00:14:24.559 --> 00:14:27.120 So that's very different than a serial killer. 00:14:27.440 --> 00:14:27.840 Right? 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:31.519 So, so what else has she said that would be interesting to discuss? 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:35.840 Well, we've got the initial assault, and this is the way it's being described been described. 00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:42.879 Pike began arguing with Slemmer, hitting her, banging her head against her knee, throwing her to the ground and kicking her repeatedly. 00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:46.639 Pike and Ship then held Slemmer down while she struggled. 00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:51.600 And this is Slemmer trying to get away, and they will not let her get away. 00:14:51.679 --> 00:14:57.600 So this is a point where it's clear that it's no longer trying to scare her because Slemmer's trying to save herself. 00:14:57.759 --> 00:14:58.480

Colleen. 00:14:59.279 --> 00:14:59.679 Right. 00:14:59.919 --> 00:15:00.480 Exactly. 00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:10.879 But what I'm getting at is that in these situations, it's very hard to tell what was part of the nefarious plan and what was the nefarious plan going haywire, right? 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:15.519 It's a reminiscent, for example, of conversations we've had about Brian Koberger. 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:25.039 Did he go into that house wanting to commit a mass murder or go into the house intending to do something and then everything went haywire and worse happened, right? 00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:26.399 It's kind of like that. 00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:32.480 I think that's probably what happened here, that something was supposed to happen and then it went extra. 00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:38.399 It went totally extra because in because rage took over, hatred, jealousy, whatever. 00:15:38.559 --> 00:15:50.480 And I think also probably this sense of power, feeling that this person was standing by you, loved you, wanted you, whatever, for the first time in your life, probably. 00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:57.200 You're having this kind of experience of, you know, this is how much somebody cares about me. 00:15:57.360 --> 00:15:59.279 They're gonna tie their fate to me like this. 00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:01.440 We're gonna do this thing together, right? 00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:07.519 Like you're so you gotta understand the psychology of that in a person who was previously the victim. 00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:10.480 And now there's that feeling of I'm in the in-group. 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:11.679 I'm in control. 00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:13.759 I got somebody I'm in control. 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:14.559 Exactly. 00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:16.960 And and so it starts getting overboard. 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:17.519 Yeah. 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:19.600 And here's some of the things you've been mentioning. 00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:24.240 Pike used the box cutter to cut her stomach while Slemmer screamed. 00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:31.759 Pike watched her bleed, and when Slemmer attempted to stand and run, she cut a long ash across her back. 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:36.879 Again, this is another she's at the point where Slemmer is now trying to get away. 00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:46.240 So in my mind, as a prosecutor, the way I see that is, oh, if you were trying to scare her, if you were trying to do something, now she's a witness against you. 00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:48.960 If she gets away, I'm getting in trouble. 00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:50.799 Absolutely. 00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:51.840 Absolutely. 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:59.039 And and the the thing is, I don't know if we're supposed to think that she sat around and said, you know what I want to do? 00:16:59.120 --> 00:17:01.440 I want to specifically cut her across her abdomen. 00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:01.759 Right. 00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:03.039 And I want to cut her throat. 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:09.920 And I want, or if the idea was to say, I'm cold, I'd be willing to kill you with this box cutter. 00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:13.200 Like you keep your mouth shut, like stay away from my boyfriend, you know, that kind of thing. 00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:14.640 And then rage takes over. 00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:22.319 But it does seem to be characteristic of her to want to give the impression, at least in her youth, to give the impression of being ice cold. 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:23.839 Like, don't mess with me. 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:24.799 I have no attachments. 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:25.599 And one of the other things I'm saying. 00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:37.519 One of the other things I heard about this moment in time was that there was another killing that took place close by, and there was already this fear in the community. 00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:45.519 You've got these two schools that are close to one another, and there were a lot of rumors about like satanic rituals taking place. 00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:46.880 Right. 00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:56.799 Do you think the chatter of that impacted the behavior of to Daryl, the boyfriend, and Krista in what they did? 00:17:56.960 --> 00:17:59.440 Do you think they were impacted by that? 00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:05.920 Is it coincidental that there's another killer out there at the time that all this is happening? 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:07.680 It's a very interesting question. 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:19.680 I think that if a person is trying to convey, you know, don't mess with me, I'm as bad as it gets, and you're in the heart of what, you know, some people call the satanic panic of that period, right? 00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:28.720 There was that kind of idea that, I mean, remember, in that period, people from the 80s until about then, there was a concern about stuff like that. 00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:39.440 You know, uh kids are being picked up by people that are using them in rituals, you know, uh don't play Dungeons and Dragons, or you may, you know, wind up getting caught up in Satanism. 00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:44.640 You know, there was a feeling that that was a legitimate, frequent motive for crime. 00:18:45.119 --> 00:19:02.400 And um, you know, the the idea is I think, again, I see Krista Pike as a person who wanted desperately to convey fearlessness, strength, belonging, etc., because she was a victimized person herself originally. 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:10.720 And I think that what you wound up with is a person who was trying to look like the most terrifying monster, you know, on the face of the earth. 00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:16.880 Uh so the idea is that the satanic elements and the thing and all of that, it's all part of conveying that. 00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:19.519 And and, you know, now, was she? 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:20.240 I don't know. 00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:26.720 I mean, there are some people that are going to take a very black and white view that she did a monstrous thing, she's evil, that's the end of it. 00:19:26.880 -->

00:19:31.279 I think people are a little more complicated than that in general. 00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:36.960 And um, I I all I know is she did a thing that was horrendous, did a thing that was vile. 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:43.599 And it is plausible that part of the purpose of that was to give the impression of somebody else doing it for a different motive. 00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:49.599 It could have been that the purpose of it was to really look bad, you know, and and terrible and scary. 00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:51.039 It's it is possible. 00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:55.359 The most disturbing aspect of that crime is the retention of part of her skull. 00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:55.839 Yeah. 00:19:55.920 --> 00:19:57.119 We're gonna get there in just a second. 00:19:57.359 --> 00:20:00.319 We're gonna get I want to do the gagging first here. 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:07.599 Uh Pike removed a cloth rag from her own hair, tied it around Slemmer's mouth to prevent her screams from being heard. 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:09.920 Is that as simple as covering up a crime? 00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:12.400 Is there anything deeper to that? 00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:20.559 I mean, it could be, but I mean the problem is that because I'm making the point that I think there was definitely a goal to do some horrendous thing. 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:36.480 I don't know how much was premeditated, but the thing is bringing a rag to, you know, in a box gutter, a pretty good case could be made that you sat there and thought you were going to do this horrible thing where you wanted somebody not to be able to scream while you quietly killed them. 00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:43.279 So that, you know, let me be clear, I'm agnostic about what their intention was of this because instruments were brought there. 00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:53.920 Um just knowing what I know about these types of crimes and her and the advantage of her personality being glimpsed over all these years, I I wouldn't be surprised if it went worse than intended. 00:20:54.160 --> 00:21:02.960 Um I think what what it speaks to also is a desire to not only you know, because remember, everything has a practical function and a psychological one. 00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:06.079 From a practical perspective, you're keeping her from screaming. 00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:14.960 From a psychological perspective, you're also keeping her from being a human, talking, reasoning with you, uh, even being able to talk to your boyfriend. 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:28.720 So that there's also the symbolic thing of I don't want any words out of you, I just want you to be turned into an object, you know, into somebody that that isn't going to say anything that's gonna sway me, make me feel bad, give me any sympathy. 00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:34.720 You know, there are killers that can be very affected by you talking and becoming a human in their eyes. 00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:43.519 Even Ted Bundy, there's a famous story told that he had picked up a woman and and she started to tell him too much about her personality, and he dropped her off. 00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:44.240 Oh, wow. 00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:47.599 Because she couldn't be an object to him anymore. 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:56.000 Once she started talking about her interests and her life, it it the the the the she was a person, and out she went, right? 00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:59.759 So that there is something about not wanting the person to have an opportunity. 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:03.839 To plea their case and talk to you and be human, right? 00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:11.039 So there's a little bit of an element of that at on at least at unconscious level, it can be very dehumanizing and prevent you from talking. 00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:19.279 So let's let's talk about the carving of the pentagram, this five-pointed star inside a circle carved into her chest while she was being attacked. 00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:29.279 So I want to go back to what I I mentioned before, which this that there was a lot of chatter and a lot of fear in the community even before this took place. 00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:31.440 And I look at it two different ways. 00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:38.480 Either, you know, you're sort of mimicking what's going on, right? 00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:51.839 And and you're doing that to maybe throw off investigators from looking at this case in isolation and looking at, oh, there's some serial satanic cult that's out there. 00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:59.599 Um but then I look at him and I say, well, he's 17 years old, she's 18, are they that sophisticated in that moment? 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:01.359 And I'm not sure. 00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:02.319 I'm not sure. 00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:02.640 Right. 00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:10.000 And then the other part of it is like you do it because yeah, you you somehow maybe believe in something like this. 00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:21.519 And there is some level of this that you're you're studying, and there was talks about, you know, witches and others who sort of penetrated the the student body down there. 00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:34.000 Well, it's interesting when you think about offenders who embrace Satanism, we think of it as being a hallmark of how evil the individual is. 00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:38.880 For example, Richard Ramirez, the night stalker, was identified that way. 00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:42.480 But I always thought, now let's just use him as an example. 00:23:42.720 --> 00:24:11.599 I always thought that Ramirez, who had a father that was allegedly abusive and uh, you know, and really no sense of stable home life and was longing for a male parentified figure, used Satan as a kind of paternal figure who gave him a clear mode of operating and gave him a permission structure for being an outsider, for being angry, for wanting his needs met, for being isolated, for being weird, for everything else. 00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:20.319 And then, of course, he, you know, he also embraces a cousin of his who teaches

him all about murder and perversion and he gets fascinated by it, right? 00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:24.240 So he's somebody who I think needed a parental, a stable parental figure. 00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:47.039 Well, that's true of a lot of these people to embrace Satanism, is that it it has the same, in a perverse way, the same function you can see in a more traditional religious idea, is that it gives you a kind of a stable sense of belonging and having a parentified authority figure that kind of says, do this and don't do that, and you'll belong, right? 00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:55.519 And this boyfriend, who was the one I think who had carved the pentagram, and who incidentally I just read may also be released. 00:24:55.759 --> 00:25:01.759 Uh uh I I read a couple of weeks ago that he that there's a potential of the boyfriend being released. 00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:09.759 Um but but I but I think that you want to see it that he would have had a it let's say he was embracing Satanism. 00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:25.200 I don't know for sure, but let's say he was, and he was drawing a sense of belonging from that, then she, looking for stability and belonging and a parentified figure and authority and an anchor in her life, would have gone right along with whatever the heck he wanted, right? 00:25:25.759 --> 00:25:28.640 Now I'm not suggesting that she did this for him. 00:25:28.799 --> 00:25:30.240 Oh yeah, I don't mean that. 00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:39.200 I just mean that whatever his identity was, she would be pulled, she could be pulled into it because she wanted a stable belonging with somebody. 00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:45.039 And, you know, so who the heck knows, you know, what you he was talking to her about in private and all of that. 00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:52.880 And and but but I think that he was the one who was identified with that, is my understanding, and the one who carved the pentagram. 00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:55.359 Have you ever heard of her being a Satanist? 00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:56.319 No, no. 00:25:57.039 --> 00:26:04.000 What I've heard and what I've researched and and talking to people is that that that was something that was driving him and all this. 00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:10.559 Now, this is the part that I personally find the most um yes disturbing about all this. 00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:14.319 And there's another part of this description that I'll get into, but let me read this first. 00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:16.480 The Blood Force Trauma and the Final Blows. 00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:20.559 Pike and Ship threw rocks at Slemmer's head as she attempted to flee. 00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:25.279 When Slemmer fell, Pike repeatedly smashed her head with a large chunk of asphalt. 00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:34.880 Pike stated she could hear Slemmer breathing blood in and out and saw her body jerking, but kept hitting her and hitting her and hitting her. 00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:49.920 The other part of this that was described in the trial was that once she smashes the head, she waits and does not want to leave until she sees the brain ooze out. 00:26:52.720 --> 00:27:01.680 And when I heard that, my jaw dropped and um any sort of benefit of any doubt kind of left my mind. 00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:03.680 And I'm a former prosecutor, okay? 00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:05.200 That's the way I see the world. 00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:17.039 Explain to me what's going on here and why she is seemingly reveling in watching the final moments of this life of her romantic rival. 00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:22.720 Well, uh I think it was a convergence of multiple psychological forces. 00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:23.920 This is what it seems to me. 00:27:24.079 --> 00:27:26.480 The convergence of multiple psychological forces. 00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:38.720 First of all, you have a person who is disempowered by years of her own lack of belonging, stability and um assault, who is empowered by an event like this. 00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:52.079 Number two, she's feels a kind of a connection, a belonging, a stabilization from having a romantic partner, and she's now, in a way, almost proving to him her devotion, her belonging, and he's doing the same, right? 00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:57.920 It's like you're cementing, almost consummating the intense relationship that you have. 00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:01.759 You're not going anywhere, I'm not going anywhere, we're in this together, we're bound together. 00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:16.400 It's sort of the way that some people with an abuse history can find it, for example, strangely attractive or stabilizing to be in a toxic fighting dynamic in a relationship, because they'll say, in the fighting, it it proves he's not going anywhere. 00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:17.440 She's not going anywhere. 00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:18.240 He must love me. 00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:19.119 She must love me. 00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:19.920 We're together. 00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:21.039 This is passion. 00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:22.799 We're bound together, right? 00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:26.640 So that there's something perverse about that, but it it's a binding thing. 00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:30.319 Then you've got the idea that, you know, she's furious. 00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:36.960 She's threatened that this is somebody who might take away the only person that she's got in her life like that, right? 00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:40.960 So she's absolutely 100% enraged. 00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:52.319 And I think what you have is a situation where in that moment, in this mixture of exhilaration, which she described, by the way, as feeling kind of multiple feelings after it, right? 00:28:52.559 --> 00:29:06.720 She she's exhilarated, you know, can't believe, you know, that this has happened, the horror of it, the strange satisfaction, the all of it all happening at the same time, one big giant soup of emotion. 00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:17.680 And I think in that moment, you know, there's a sense of satisfaction that it finally feels like

she's leveled the playing field and and secured for herself a person that's not going anywhere. 00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:23.440 And it's like one big blow towards the forces that have tried to take things from her her whole life. 00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:26.240 Except that this woman was an innocent woman. 00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:26.799 Right. 00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:27.200 Right. 00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:29.519 But that's what's been projected onto her. 00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:33.359 And in that moment, it's like I watched it die. 00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:34.240 That's it. 00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:36.559 Smooth sailing, now on, right? 00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:40.079 Except what what was she going to do? 00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:41.519 She confessed a few weeks later. 00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:42.720 Well, very quickly. 00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:49.680 Well, let's talk about this the the trophy and body disposal before leaving with uh Slummer's face down in a pile of debris. 00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:50.079 Yeah. 00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:50.960 Horrendous. 00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:57.759 She crushed and severed a section of her skull and removed the piece of the skull bone, put it in a napkin as a souvenir. 00:29:58.079 --> 00:30:00.640 I believe when she was arrested, it was in her pocket. 00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:03.680 Like, what what what's going on here? 00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:17.440 This is the other part that has disturbed many folks and enraged folks in Tennessee, and it's why overwhelmingly the folks in that community um want to see the state of Tennessee uh attempt the execution a second time. 00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:19.680 Now, let me be clear. 00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:25.920 My heart entities go 100% to the family of the victim and the victim. 00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:26.319 Okay. 00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:36.640 Nothing that I'm saying is to be construed as an excuse or anything, as much as just creating a kind of psychological insight into what might be going on in an offender. 00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:36.960 Okay. 00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:40.480 And the only reason I care about that is to prevent more offenders. 00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:43.599 I have no interest in in you know in making excuse. 00:30:43.839 --> 00:30:51.519 And of course, in when I work on legal cases, uh I have to understand it because of fairness in in terms of the judicial process. 00:30:51.920 --> 00:30:54.240 But this is what I would say. 00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:57.920 You have to ask yourself, why do offenders keep trophies? 00:30:58.160 --> 00:30:59.759 Serial killers, for example. 00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:06.319 Some of them eat people, some of them bury them someplace they could visit, some of them keep a part of the body. 00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:07.599 Why do they do that? 00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:23.599 Well, I've always thought, and in my writing, in a recent writing, I'm starting to lay out a real theory about this for the first time, is that there's too much emphasis on those offenders doing those things as part of a psychosexual kind of thrill. 00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:33.680 I think that a lot of those things are done to create stable objects in your life when you had an unstable life for years. 00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:40.880 You had an alcoholic parent, you had someone who was abusing you, you had someone who was leaving you, you know, people bullied you, whatever. 00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:46.960 So to carve out a s a kind of predictable object, you do some of these things. 00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:51.599 When they asked Dahmer why he ate people, he said that it was because he was tired of people leaving him. 00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:53.200 Right? 00:31:53.359 --> 00:31:54.079 That was the point. 00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:57.119 They'll become part of me forever and then they'll never leave. 00:31:57.440 --> 00:31:59.039 Stabilization of objects. 00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:02.000 Stalking people can be about stabilization of objects. 00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:03.519 I always know where you are. 00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:05.119 Right? 00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:08.640 Burying a person and visiting their corpse, same thing. 00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:11.359 The killer will say, they belong to me. 00:32:11.599 --> 00:32:13.519 I go to them and they're mine. 00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:16.559 You know, I have control now over. 00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:20.079 And it's the same thing with keeping part of a body and all of that. 00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:31.279 It's this weird way of keeping a person with you permanently, or keeping the event with you permanently, or reminding yourself that you had the ability to do it in that moment, right? 00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:32.880 That you had the power to do it. 00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:45.279 And I think this is a person who, in some twisted way, wanted a reminder that she had become the arbiter this time, you know, of life and death and who hurts her and who, whatever. 00:32:45.440 --> 00:32:47.839 Because it's it's totally perverted and outrageous. 00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:50.559 But this is somebody who had herself been hurt. 00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:59.119 And so in this twisted way, it's like a memento of the day that you feel that you you stood up to the forces that had hurt you. 00:32:59.359 --> 00:33:02.000 You and I understand how perverted and outrageous that is. 00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:04.240 But you got to see it through that lens. 00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:15.200 And this is a souvenir in the way that a per a normal person, an average person, might keep a photo of a wedding day or a the day that they graduated, they you know, they keep their diploma. 00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:21.359 They can't this is like you see it as the day you became what it is that you wanted to be, right? 00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:23.039 And so it's a souvenir. 00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:28.000 And it's also a way of saying to the world, no one's, I'm not scared of you. 00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:30.079 I chose to do this. 00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:31.839 I have the power, right?

00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:36.160 I remember once I interviewed somebody who was covered head to toe in tattoos. 00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:38.880 And uh they had been horrendously abused. 00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:44.559 And I said, I'm just curious, you know, is there a psychological significance to why you're covered head to toe in tattoos? 00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:45.759 I'm just saying, I think it's interesting. 00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:46.480 I'm just curious. 00:33:46.720 --> 00:33:48.079 And they said, Yeah. 00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:52.400 It's my way of saying to the world, I chose all this pain. 00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:58.400 I you could tattoo me head to toe, put needles in every part of me. 00:33:58.640 --> 00:33:59.680 I chose it. 00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:00.960 It doesn't hurt me. 00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:02.720 I choose that it hurts me. 00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:08.000 So I think that there's a little bit of that that you got to understand in the mind of some of these people. 00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:16.800 And I think we also don't know how much he was kind of firing her up and pumping her up, and and we don't know how that dynamic was playing out. 00:34:17.039 --> 00:34:32.320 But the point is to have this thing that proves, like like a dissociative or lost soul, you know, might want, or a, or a person who wants to give a message to the world that they're a monster, they need a thing that says this was real, right? 00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:34.480 That this really happened. 00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:40.480 And um Haven't you ever had a souvenir that you kept to remind you of come to my house? 00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:41.519 I'm like a hoarder. 00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:45.199 I have souvenirs like from every little thing that happened in my life. 00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:46.480 I I have a ton of them. 00:34:46.639 --> 00:34:47.199 Let's do this. 00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:48.880 This is a perversion of that. 00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:51.199 Yeah, this is an extreme perversion of that. 00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:53.360 We've taken a look at a lot of the conduct. 00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:57.840 I want to take a look at some of her words now, some of the statements that she made. 00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:02.960 And I'll begin here, and this is the the alleged taunting or the actual taunting. 00:35:03.199 --> 00:35:12.639 While Slemmer was dying and groaning, Pike, Christopher Pike taunted her by asking, Colleen, do you know who's doing this to you? 00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:20.400 It's an interesting comment, right? 00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:26.800 From from somebody who on the one hand had a history of being the victim and now became the monster, right? 00:35:26.880 --> 00:35:31.199 It's the right that you almost want to say, Do you know who's doing it to me? 00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:34.000 Who are you? 00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:34.960 Right? 00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:36.880 So that is a it's an interesting thing. 00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:40.559 You know, they say toys with this whole idea of identity, right? 00:35:41.039 --> 00:35:49.840 That and so that it's like it's almost as if she's saying, Colleen, I want you to know who I am because I want to see who I am right now. 00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:53.280 I right now I'm something different than I've always been, right? 00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:55.760 And I want you to know it and I want the world to know it. 00:35:55.920 --> 00:35:58.079 That's why I'm gonna carry this bone around. 00:35:58.320 --> 00:36:02.400 It's to it's to manipulate the way you are seen. 00:36:03.360 --> 00:36:05.280 So no one messes with you, right? 00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:07.440 You're bad, you're a monster, you're strong. 00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:12.639 So so I think that that question is very, very telling of an uncertainty in herself. 00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:14.400 See? 00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:15.599 I got it. 00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:21.599 I I I mean, there's a definitely a theme that's very consistent throughout the conduct behind the statement. 00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:22.960 How about this part? 00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:25.280 Um no, that's the wrong one. 00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:26.480 Let me get the right one here. 00:36:26.559 --> 00:36:27.519 One second. 00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:31.679 Don't you love these deep dives we do, Vinny? 00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:35.920 Yeah, this is the way, this is how you actually get some insight into what's going on. 00:36:36.639 --> 00:36:37.280 That's great. 00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:42.239 Okay, this is part of the alleged boasting that's taken place, okay? 00:36:42.559 --> 00:36:52.480 So this is to the student Wilson, then when pointed out that there was red residue on her shoes, Pike stated, that ain't mud on my shoes, that's blood. 00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:59.280 She then unwrapped the napkin, showed the skull piece, and detailed how Slummer's blood and brains poured out. 00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:01.519 This is back at the school. 00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:04.639 Like they're all students and and and you know, going to school together. 00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:08.159 And she's not trying to hide what she did here. 00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:11.280 She's boasting about it to fellow students. 00:37:11.840 --> 00:37:14.559 Her judgment is clearly impaired, right? 00:37:14.719 --> 00:37:17.280 I mean, you know, that this is uh this is impulsive. 00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:22.400 It's uh it it's almost as if she wants to get in trouble. 00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:34.719 One might make the Freudian interpretation that if you really are looking for a parentified figure and discipline in your life and a sense of belonging and stability, you're almost begging to be tucked away in a jail cell. 00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:37.440 Well, you'll have somebody who watches you forever. 00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:50.400 And she did have a history of being in in in settings like that, where authority figures watched after her and all of that, because she was, you know, not being watched after for part of her life. 00:37:50.639 -->

00:37:57.679 So I think, you know, in a psychological way, it almost comes across like come at me, be afraid of me. 00:37:57.840 --> 00:37:58.719 I'm immune. 00:37:58.880 --> 00:38:02.960 But secretly, this is what I meant earlier about the practical and the psychological. 00:38:03.199 --> 00:38:08.719 Secretly, it feels like lock me up, stop me. 00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:16.960 Give me a stable setting in which, you know, I get three hots and a cot, you know, and I and I uh, you know, and I and I could be okay. 00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:22.880 And um, you know, that that's I think the the the complicated way you gotta look at this case. 00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:32.559 Now, after her arrest, she waives her rights, gives a full detailed statement, agreeing to walk police through a reenactment at the crime scene. 00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:38.079 This is not normal behavior uh by a uh a murder defendant. 00:38:38.559 --> 00:38:44.000 Um, but it to me now um like this now seems consistent with what you're just saying. 00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:44.719 That's right. 00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:49.280 So she's thrown in the towel, you got me, um, but now you gotta take care of me. 00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:51.199 Now you gotta give me a place to live. 00:38:51.760 --> 00:38:53.599 Got to give me a place to live, exactly. 00:38:53.760 --> 00:39:01.760 And and you know, it's um if that's true, you would expect the person to do very well in an incarceration situation. 00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:05.360 To not have problems in that setting very much. 00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:17.039 Now, there are stories uh about some of what went on there, but it does, but we're gonna see that there she does reflect and ultimately start to say different stuff as time goes on, whether you believe it or not. 00:39:17.199 --> 00:39:24.719 Right there there is this kind of growth in insight as time goes on, and and we'll and I'm sure we'll see those comments as time goes on. 00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:25.599 And how about those? 00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:26.960 But this is early on. 00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:27.760 Early on. 00:39:28.159 --> 00:39:29.360 This is all early on. 00:39:29.519 --> 00:39:31.360 You know, we're going back in time here on this. 00:39:31.519 --> 00:39:40.639 Now, again, the witnesses, the folks that she was talking to noted that she appeared calm, smiling, and laughing while describing the murder. 00:39:41.119 --> 00:39:48.159 And that and you know, we're talking about this case, and and how on earth does an 18-year-old woman end up on death row? 00:39:48.400 --> 00:39:51.679 A lot of it is because of this, this type of behavior. 00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:58.159 I mean, you're not going to endear yourself to a jury uh when all of this is being described to them. 00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:11.119 Well, it you know, because um there's multiple layers to why people do a thing, but people have a tendency to think that there's just one big black and white reason why you do it. 00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:16.400 A person laughing and acting callous can have multiple motivations. 00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:29.039 Um, you know, for example, if um I see two guys get into a fight and one is acting all tough and says, you know, you're not gonna, you're not gonna hurt me, I'll take you right now, whatever. 00:40:29.199 --> 00:40:37.599 You could look at it that that's really how he feels, or you could look at it that it's a compensation for feeling very small and insecure and and trying to posture. 00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:41.440 You there's all different reasons why people have an observable behavior. 00:40:41.599 --> 00:40:42.159 We don't know. 00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:53.039 Another thing that's got to be taken into consideration is that Christa herself, Pike herself, refers to herself as having been mentally ill when she was that age. 00:40:53.199 --> 00:40:57.199 There are quotes where she'll say, I was an 18-year-old and I was mentally ill. 00:40:57.440 --> 00:41:08.239 When she looks back on it, she sees that that was a reflection of disturbance, and she'll even say, I'm sure you have quotes like that, she'll even say, I don't know how I could have done that to somebody. 00:41:08.639 --> 00:41:13.119 That's very different than a than a psychopathic person, unless she wants something. 00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:15.119 Look, she thinks she's going to get something out of it. 00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:17.039 But what could she get out of it at this point? 00:41:17.360 --> 00:41:19.679 Well, I I think she does want to live. 00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:20.719 Yes. 00:41:21.039 --> 00:41:26.960 She absolutely wants to live because she was given she knew she had the problem with the veins. 00:41:27.199 --> 00:41:32.800 She she may or may not have dehydrated herself, which makes it more difficult to find the vein. 00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:34.480 That's that's being debated right now. 00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:53.679 Um but she chose, she had the option of the electric chair because of the time of her conviction, she was eligible for the electric chair if she wanted, but she said, no, I don't want that, and then chose a an alternative means that is not legal in Tennessee. 00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:56.559 So to me, that was really a false choice. 00:41:56.719 --> 00:42:00.079 Um whether it's her or her lawyers, I'm not sure. 00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:01.360 Uh, but it was a false choice. 00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:05.519 You say, yeah, uh, I'll, yeah, if you're gonna execute me, do it this way. 00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:07.840 Well, we can't, you know we can't do it that way. 00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:16.320 But they could have electrocuted her, but she chose not to do that and went the route that she went, and obviously uh the state of Tennessee botched it. 00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:18.639 Um, but I believe she wants to live now. 00:42:18.800 --> 00:42:22.079 Like she does not want to go to the chamber. 00:42:23.440 --> 00:42:27.920 She says, I've heard, you know, I know that there are quotes

where she says, I'm not afraid to die. 00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:38.400 But then she goes on to say that it has more to do with like how, how that she's upset about afraid of the process, but that she's accepted the idea that of death. 00:42:38.639 --> 00:42:38.880 Right. 00:42:39.280 --> 00:42:42.159 And, you know, and it it it's it's an interesting thing. 00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:44.480 I mean, you know, I that we could debate all night. 00:42:44.559 --> 00:42:58.559 I mean, you know, about it starts to almost get into a larger question about the utility of the death penalty and are there certain ways that are more moral than others to do it or more ethical to do it, or you know, how much of a public spectacle should it be when a person is executed? 00:42:58.719 --> 00:43:01.199 It's a fascinating thing to talk about. 00:43:01.519 --> 00:43:12.320 Um, but but I but I think that um I think that it's interesting that a person is saying, look, you know, I know I'm gonna die. 00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:13.920 I did this thing, it was wrong. 00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:15.760 Because she doesn't have to. 00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:22.960 She if she wanted, if she really was still the person she was when she was 18, she'd still be putting on the act of I'm stone cold. 00:43:23.119 --> 00:43:23.760 You know what I mean? 00:43:23.920 --> 00:43:27.760 She would just be like, screw it, I don't care, I would do it again today and be happy about it. 00:43:27.920 --> 00:43:29.119 You know, that kind of thing. 00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:30.239 She's not saying that. 00:43:30.400 --> 00:43:30.880 Right. 00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:33.119 And I mean, the woman is 50 years old now. 00:43:33.199 --> 00:43:33.360 Yeah. 00:43:33.519 --> 00:43:34.960 This is when she was 18. 00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:36.000 I want to go back. 00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:37.360 Can we go back to when she's 18? 00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:40.719 Because I I I don't want to leave this out, and I thought this was important. 00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:40.960 Yeah. 00:43:41.119 --> 00:43:46.239 And this was the letter that was intercepted that after her conviction, again, we're going back in time. 00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:54.079 She writes this letter to to Daryl, who is the boyfriend who she'll never be with because he was convicted as well, although he might get out. 00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:56.159 Um, and here's the letter. 00:43:56.400 --> 00:43:59.119 Hey, love, I just want you to know how much I love you. 00:43:59.199 --> 00:43:59.599 I have 10. 00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:04.079 Months left to live, not really, turned into several decades, right? 00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:05.039 Imagine that. 00:44:05.199 --> 00:44:08.159 I'd spend every moment with you if I could, baby. 00:44:08.320 --> 00:44:12.320 I want you to tell them you lied in your statement and go along with mine. 00:44:12.559 --> 00:44:13.840 Do you have a copy of mine? 00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:15.360 If not, I'll get you one. 00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:15.920 Okay? 00:44:16.159 --> 00:44:18.000 I love you, big bunches, baby. 00:44:18.159 --> 00:44:21.840 And no matter what they do to me, they can't change what's in my heart. 00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:23.039 Please write me. 00:44:23.119 --> 00:44:24.400 I miss you so much. 00:44:24.639 --> 00:44:27.119 You see what I get for trying to be nice to the bleep? 00:44:27.440 --> 00:44:34.880 I went ahead and bashed her brains out so she'd die quickly instead of letting her bleed to death and suffer more, and they fry me. 00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:37.039 Ain't that some bleep? 00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:39.519 Please write me and tell me what you're feeling. 00:44:39.679 --> 00:44:43.280 Baker said he'd give you some paper and bleep while you're out there. 00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:51.360 Also, tell your lawyer if he wants me to testify for you, I will love you for the rest of my life, little devil. 00:44:52.559 --> 00:45:07.280 So you see, calling herself little devil, the the the idea being that in order to have a sense of bonding with this person, she had to kind of convey herself that she was capable of being pure evil. 00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:09.199 Like she's got to play it on. 00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:10.960 Like that's part of their bond. 00:45:11.039 --> 00:45:12.880 That's their shtick with each other, right? 00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:14.079 I'm a monster. 00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:18.480 But the key of it is that she had a stable attachment with him in her mind. 00:45:18.719 --> 00:45:22.480 She would do absolutely anything she had to do to keep that attachment going. 00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:26.880 And um, you know, i I wonder if they ever had a breakup. 00:45:27.199 --> 00:45:30.400 I mean, do they does she still to this day think that she's involved with this guy? 00:45:30.639 --> 00:45:34.239 No, well, no, I was gonna tell you, ask you about this because in 2012. 00:45:35.519 --> 00:45:45.760 In 2012, when she tries the uh is planning and plotting the prison break with her pal boyfriend from New Jersey who keeps visiting her. 00:45:46.079 --> 00:45:46.719 I forgot about that. 00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:47.360 Yeah. 00:45:47.599 --> 00:45:50.320 Um What do you think was going on there? 00:45:50.480 --> 00:46:05.920 Do you think that she because I have a big problem with this as well, um for obvious reasons, um, as do a lot of people, but do you think she's using this guy or someone's paying attention to her? 00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:13.679 Does she see him as because this is a guy who not only was planning this, he also got pinched for um mortgage fraud. 00:46:13.760 --> 00:46:28.800 So he had like over$100,000 available to himself at the time that he was planning and plotting and conniving with the corrections officer to get a key, to get false IDs, to to I mean, this was a real plot. 00:46:29.039 --> 00:46:36.559 What do you think was going on from her perspective, what she was um potentially thinking about in the future? 00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:41.519 Was she going to run off with this guy,

or is this you you think it's just an opportunity? 00:46:41.679 --> 00:46:45.920 This is someone who reached out to me, so, hey, I can get him to do something for me. 00:46:46.559 --> 00:47:07.760 Well, I think what it shows is that, and this is just a hypothesis, but it suggests a person who gets caught up in impulsive, not very thought-out fantasies that involve a person who comes like a kind of weird, perverted white knight and is willing to do things that are absolutely outrageous, throw their own life away as a proof. 00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:11.039 So the so the attraction, I mean, my God, can you look at let me know? 00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:12.400 There's the happy couple. 00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:13.119 Right. 00:47:13.199 --> 00:47:15.280 I've seen better heads on boils, as they say. 00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:15.599 Right. 00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:24.880 So so it's this this whole idea that that um there's something thrilling about somebody wanting you that much, caring about that you that much, right? 00:47:25.199 --> 00:47:44.480 And in conjunction with the judgment problems and the impulse control problem and all this other stuff that is self-evident from the story, I just think it's getting caught up again in another one of these things where you have this need to have somebody who wants you so badly they would destroy their lives along with you in a kind of perverse bond, right? 00:47:44.639 --> 00:47:47.280 An outrageous bond you're gonna make with each other. 00:47:47.519 --> 00:47:51.599 And um, that's not uncommon in, for example, couples that kill. 00:47:51.840 --> 00:47:57.199 Is that that it becomes part of the cementing, right, of the of the relationship with each other. 00:47:57.440 --> 00:48:02.559 I mean, that letter that you showed me, doesn't it strike you as pathetic? 00:48:03.360 --> 00:48:06.719 This isn't that sad and pathetic in a way. 00:48:07.039 --> 00:48:20.880 I mean, you know, it it comes across that she doesn't even care at that time that she did what she did, because as far as she's concerned, it bonded her to somebody finally who would live and die for her. 00:48:21.519 --> 00:48:23.519 I mean, that that's really what it comes down to. 00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:25.199 Throw themselves into jail for her. 00:48:25.280 --> 00:48:30.480 That that is more important than having a physical sexual relationship in person with a person. 00:48:30.639 --> 00:48:47.920 It's like a person who because you gotta understand, when we go out and we have romantic relationships in a post-pubescent kind of way, hopefully we've resolved all the pre-puberty stuff of believing that somebody loves us just because we exist, you know, somebody would take care of us in the crib, you know? 00:48:48.159 --> 00:48:53.920 But if you don't resolve that, then sexual relationships are really about that. 00:48:54.559 --> 00:48:59.760 You're doing the sexual, but you really want is somebody who just cares about you like you're an infant, right? 00:48:59.920 --> 00:49:02.079 In fact, it's interesting she calls him baby. 00:49:02.320 --> 00:49:05.679 But you just want the person like it like basically just to be there. 00:49:05.840 --> 00:49:08.719 And in that kind of relationship, you don't even need physicality. 00:49:09.039 --> 00:49:11.280 You just want to know the person's there. 00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:12.480 That they exist. 00:49:12.800 --> 00:49:15.519 She thinks she wants to please write me, please write me. 00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:16.159 She wants that. 00:49:16.800 --> 00:49:18.239 Pay attention to me, take care of me. 00:49:18.320 --> 00:49:19.199 I always want to know where you are. 00:49:19.440 --> 00:49:24.880 That's why if you talk to people who've who have hyperstophilia where you fall in love with an offender, right? 00:49:24.960 --> 00:49:32.719 That that that paraphilic disorder where you're romantically attracted to somebody who's in jail for killing or whatever, who's murdered, who's committed crime. 00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:36.320 If you talk to them, some of them will say, I always know where he is. 00:49:36.559 --> 00:49:37.679 He's never going anywhere. 00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:38.880 He's not going to cheat on me. 00:49:38.960 --> 00:49:40.880 He there's no other woman to cheat with. 00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:41.840 I always know where he is. 00:49:41.920 --> 00:49:48.559 He's a he's in the and it also reminds me of a story of a person that uh there's a true story. 00:49:48.719 --> 00:50:00.159 I had a pr a person that I knew, well, I don't have to say who they were, not a patient, but somebody in the neighborhood had this weird thing where they inherited a bicycle from a family member that had died. 00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:03.039 This beautiful vintage bicycle. 00:50:03.440 --> 00:50:05.599 And they went and they threw it in the river. 00:50:06.480 --> 00:50:09.440 Threw it right over the side of the bridge into a river. 00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:11.760 And I said, Why would you do that? 00:50:11.920 --> 00:50:12.719 I'm just curious. 00:50:12.800 --> 00:50:20.480 I mean, this was given to you by this person that you missed that you and he said, I would I always know where it is now. 00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:25.599 It creates this twisted idea of permanence. 00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:26.239 See? 00:50:26.400 --> 00:50:30.719 So with him tucked in a jail cell and her tucked in a jail cell, you're not going anywhere. 00:50:31.360 --> 00:50:31.760 Done. 00:50:32.400 --> 00:50:32.639 See? 00:50:32.800 --> 00:50:33.440 We're bound together. 00:50:33.519 --> 00:50:37.440 Like, that's right. 00:50:37.840 --> 00:50:44.800 And and and so you wind up with this sort of Macbeck situation where the two of them have committed the deed together and that's it. 00:50:44.880 --> 00:50:45.760 They're in it together. 00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:47.599 They're bound forever, right? 00:50:48.159 --> 00:50:53.599 Well, I wonder how she feels about the idea that he may get out and she's gonna die.

00:50:53.840 --> 00:50:54.320 Yeah. 00:50:54.880 --> 00:50:58.320 That's that's the next chapter. 00:50:58.480 --> 00:51:00.239 We'll we'll get to that in our next chapter. 00:51:00.400 --> 00:51:01.840 I just want to finish with this last statement. 00:51:02.000 --> 00:51:04.079 We go back to 2002 again. 00:51:04.320 --> 00:51:08.000 Um during a hearing where she briefly attempted to waive her appeals. 00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:09.519 Pike stated, I killed someone. 00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:13.920 I sat in this very courtroom with a jury that found me guilty and sentenced me to death. 00:51:14.079 --> 00:51:26.159 Um, it's an acknowledgement of what she did, and she's trying to just waive her appeals, which I looked at this and I thought this was important because that's the exact opposite of where she is now. 00:51:26.719 --> 00:51:28.239 She's not waiving appeals. 00:51:28.400 --> 00:51:35.920 They are filing motion after motion after motion, looking for a way to escape the punishment for her crime. 00:51:36.719 --> 00:51:37.280 Mm-hmm. 00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:42.239 Well, look, I mean, I don't know if she really wants to be dead. 00:51:42.480 --> 00:51:46.559 I think the story for this woman was that she always just wanted a different life. 00:51:46.880 --> 00:51:50.800 It isn't that she wanted death, and she's never getting one. 00:51:50.960 --> 00:51:53.360 I mean, that the fate is sealed one way or another. 00:51:53.440 --> 00:51:54.559 I mean, that that's it. 00:51:54.719 --> 00:52:01.440 And, you know, and and then and in a way, I mean, I want to know if it's been a bad life for her in prison. 00:52:01.920 --> 00:52:08.159 It may be the first time in her life that she has a sense of belonging and order and in the middle of all the chaos of life. 00:52:08.320 --> 00:52:09.199 I don't know. 00:52:09.440 --> 00:52:16.719 But but I only know that those statements are suggestive of a person who realizes that what they did was horrendous. 00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:20.079 And I do think that she knows what she did was horrendous. 00:52:20.159 --> 00:52:20.880 I really do. 00:52:21.119 --> 00:52:25.199 I just don't know what would happen if she was out in the world again. 00:52:25.519 --> 00:52:38.559 But this looks like one of those cases where it depends on the context if she's in a c as long as the person isn't in some kind of attachment dynamic where they're they're horrified at the idea of abandonment or need to make a bond. 00:52:38.719 --> 00:52:52.239 Because I think that story about the guy that that she might escape with that whole story shows that once there's an emotional dynamic again with a man who gives her that feeling, it's you can start seeing that sort of unraveling. 00:52:52.320 --> 00:53:00.000 And I don't know if it unravels towards murder, but it certainly unravels towards being willing to do things that are a little outrageous. 00:53:00.320 --> 00:53:06.000 And I think that's the key of it, is is that is that that need gets her unraveled. 00:53:06.639 --> 00:53:08.639 And I think that's the center of this case. 00:53:08.719 --> 00:53:09.039 See? 00:53:09.280 --> 00:53:11.039 So I hope this has been interesting. 00:53:11.280 --> 00:53:14.800 Yeah, no, absolutely, and I appreciate all the time that you gave us. 00:53:14.880 --> 00:53:15.760 Uh Dr. 00:53:15.840 --> 00:53:19.280 Gary Brucado, folks, the name of the book is The New Evil. 00:53:19.519 --> 00:53:22.079 Um, you gotta get it. 00:53:22.159 --> 00:53:30.639 Uh he's talked to so many people and studied all the cases and gives me the perspective that I don't get anywhere else. 00:53:30.719 --> 00:53:38.480 And and by the way, the last time I had you on this show on this channel, I said you're, you know, the first guest that I've ever had. 00:53:38.719 --> 00:53:41.199 I still haven't had another guest since then. 00:53:41.440 --> 00:53:44.800 So it's usually just me talking. 00:53:44.960 --> 00:53:56.320 So um, but what we we needed your perspective, because I I think that's one perspective that we have not gotten in the intense coverage of this story and of this killer. 00:53:56.480 --> 00:53:59.760 We've never really taken the time to try to figure out, well, who is she? 00:53:59.920 --> 00:54:08.000 How did she end up like that, and what what's the significance of these decisions and that she made and the conduct that she engaged in. 00:54:08.159 --> 00:54:10.559 And I think we have a much better picture now. 00:54:11.360 --> 00:54:12.320 Yes, but but two things. 00:54:12.400 --> 00:54:22.559 One I'll say very quickly is remember, no matter what the reason is for what people did, always place your emphasis on the victims and their families of it, because I and and it our hearts have to go after them. 00:54:22.719 --> 00:54:26.239 This is horrible what happened to this to poor Colleen. 00:54:26.559 --> 00:54:40.079 And number two, always remember that line from the the the poet WH Alden that says I know what all school children learn, those to whom evil is done will do evil in return. 00:54:41.519 --> 00:54:43.599 That's the idea, right? 00:54:44.079 --> 00:54:46.320 So bear that in mind. 00:54:46.559 --> 00:55:07.840 The the the you know, this is why those of you who have children and are kind to your children and worry about them, you have to understand how you're altering the course of a person's life by loving them instead of abandoning them or loving them instead of abusing them, because you could set a person on a horrendous path. 00:55:08.159 --> 00:55:08.480 See? 00:55:09.119 --> 00:55:15.519 And um who knows what kind of a human being Krista Pike could have been if she had a different life path. 00:55:15.760 --> 00:55:16.719 We have no idea. 00:55:16.960 --> 00:55:23.039 She made her choices and she did a horrendous thing, but the start of her life had a cruelty. 00:55:23.519 --> 00:55:35.840 And um and I think we have to think about that, about this terrible web of evil where one person does a terrible thing to a person and that person does terrible things and it goes on and on and on, right? 00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:44.320 So it's like let the buck stop with you and and sort of see it, that the people that are in front of you, you can love them or treat them like crap. 00:55:44.719 --> 00:55:45.920 Try to love people. 00:55:46.159 --> 00:55:47.119 It makes a difference. 00:55:47.440 --> 00:55:49.440 What a great way to end this conversation, Dr. 00:55:49.599 --> 00:55:50.480 Yarek Cocotta. 00:55:50.719 --> 00:55:51.440 Thank you so much. 00:55:51.679 --> 00:55:55.519 I told you this was going to be a very special episode, and and it was. 00:55:55.599 --> 00:56:34.880 Uh I think what we covered here is something I haven't heard anywhere else, and gives us a little more perspective on the story, on the case, and on the killer that everyone is talking about now, as the state of Tennessee still must decide if they want to attempt to take her life one more time, uh, a second execution, and as all the legal battles ensue inside of a courtroom, um, at least now we I think have a better understanding of this woman who ended up on death row at age 18 and ended up now surviving lethal injection. 00:56:35.360 --> 00:56:36.719 Thank you so much for watching. 00:56:36.880 --> 00:56:43.360 Please like, please subscribe, and until next time, please don't forget to hug the kids.