النص الكامل لحلقة Snake River Preview: Revamped Offense & Boise's Title Hopes with UpWest Sports and Nathan Carroll

standpoint. I think Greg Woods called it out beautifully, just throwing a little bit more. Obviously he's a little vanilla. He and I've told the gang this. I'm like, we're so used to an unscripted Mike Leech and now we have a very scripted coach more, so it's just it's you You're talking about two different styles. but I'm also seeing at the same time him to have a little bit more of excitement in a way he's talking, a little bit more, I mean, frustration was showed. And I like Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm. Chad Kebba: that. I mean, you can't get you can't fix something if you don't recognize it and get upset about something. Obviously, if it's outside your control, it's outside your control. But you as a head football coach, everything should remain within your control. And so show your players Lucas Ingham: Totally. Chad Kebba: some fire. I liked it. Lucas Ingham: Yeah. No, I thought that was good and I thought it was a a sign of maturity, which is kind of what what Greg mentioned. And I I've talked to some people, you know, in the building who say he's not that coach speak guy all the time. He he has a lot of emotion in fire that he's maybe not just trying to show to the public eye, which I can respect. But I think there's a a portion of it where the fans wanna see that emotion from you on the sideline in the postgame. But just last thing here on Pinnock before we move to the positive, Joel, you played this game at a higher level than any of us. When the quarterback's not playing well, not only for the rest of the offense, but for people on defense, how much does that take away from your fire, your energy, every snap? How hard is it to, you know, kind of bring that same next play mentality when you know something's not right with the other side of the? Joel Walton: Difficult. It's difficult. Although in the heat of the moment you try not to to mention it if especially if you're a captain. I know for for my guys when it's like, hey, like we can only do one foot forward and it has to be our own feet kind of mentality when defense is on the field. But I'll be honest, if I like hidden away in my corner like, gosh, get it together. Like please, Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Joel Walton: please, at least give us a breather. You Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Joel Walton: know, I had plenty of those. But yeah, it c it can it can be rough and it's it's one of those where like you as a defensive player I saw Katie Biddy at times back when when Pennick was in the mix, I saw times where he was like, with a smile on his face, you could sell it, you could tell he was yelling. He was like, Come on, let's go, guys, get it together. Like it was kind of with a smile on his face. but yeah, it can be rough. It can be rough. And I and I will say, if I if I had to answer a question myself of like why it took as long as it took, my guess, I mean, it could be because of the money, but I think that there was moments where It felt like, like if it's if he gets the right amount of of right plays in place, he will get into rhythm and he'll figure it out. And it was just because of the type of plays were being laid out, quote unquote, Lucas Ingham: For sure. Joel Walton: maybe if we get a move in, maybe we do that, they would see like little flashes of his athleticism Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Joel Walton: and like maybe we can mix that up and between what we have, you know, there's been other other injuries. So it could have been things that were s telling them, Hey, it's not him, all it's not all on him, it's the collective, false starts, things like that. And then eventually came to a head. Lucas Ingham: Totally. No, and I I'm with you. And I think it's so easy for fans to you know, myself included, hindsight twenty twenty. I mean, it looks so obvious now that Owen's the guy, and it's just it's only been one game. so you know, maybe we're putting the the cart in front of the horse a little bit, but when you look back at it, the only thing that I may be cause I think after the Arizona game, I think the collective kind of idea was, well, they played three really good football teams, let's see what it looks like against Fresno State. And then Fresno State doesn't go well, and then it's like, all right, well, let's see what it looks like when Kirby's calling plays. And so I think the right time to get Owen involved maybe would have been like clearly in the second half of Fresno State, like it was just in yeah, you guys were on the field. I mean, it was just gone. It just wasn't happening. So there's no shame in, you know, we're gonna play Boise State this weekend. We all remember what happened last time we played Boise State. Tyler Halinski comes in, Falk just he's injured, he doesn't have it. You gotta make a move. And then I think in the first half against Utah State, they looked Pretty good on offense. They had some nice drives. I think they were up 17 to 3. And so it'd be hard to justify saying, well, maybe you didn't have a great first half, but you know, we scored 17 points. So that would be a hard time to pull them. It's just, it it's so hard when when you bring in a guy and you believe in a guy and you're trying to build him up. It's like, it's like giving up on a closer. It's like as soon as you do it, you're kind of pulling the plug permanently. You know, it you're gonna kill the kid's confidence. And so obviously you want to avoid it for as long as you can, but I think they just have to chalk it up to a mistake, leave it in the past. I I don't know if we're gonna be seeing Caden on the field again as WCU. I I hope he can continue to improve because I think he's athletic. I think he has a lot to offer as a quarterback. And I just think for whatever reason he it wasn't happening, the execution wasn't happening for him this year. So just hope he hope he continues to progress and find his footing, whether it ends up being here or or somewhere else. But let's focus on what we saw last weekend, which I think we all came away. fairly excited

about what we were able to see on offense. I'll just I guess I'll just start with you, Chad. What do you think was the biggest difference, you know, in in Owen's game and what they were able to do on offense that, you know, made a difference on the field? Chad Kebba: Well, throwing the ball forty nine times was pretty sweet. I mean, the yardage was there too, but he did throw the ball a ton. just overall I was I was happy with what I wanted to see and it was really just making smart decisions and getting to that second third receiver within his progressions and I felt like he did it well. I felt like he was seeing the ball well and making quick decisions when he needed to, stepping up into the pocket, i okay with taking the big hit. And, you know, making the throw at the same time, right? So, you know, overall I was satisfied. Obviously you want to see a cougar win, but you saw some good offense in there and just it was just surprising how it's just like, well, I guess our defense isn't as good or maybe Oregon State's offense is literally that legit. Top three in the country offense we're Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Chad Kebba: talking. Lucas Ingham: No, they can't they can't be nails every week, especially it's like like they've done they've propped up this team so much. And for them to, you know, to hold up as long as they did, they this is the best offense they've played all year. I know. I think we thought UW was gonna be something that Chad Kebba: Totally. Lucas Ingham: they weren't. Kansas State, you know, started off hot, but then they've kind of fallen off Arizona's rank now. I don't know how I feel about that. I didn't really I didn't come away from that game thinking that they were that amazing, but You mentioned throwing the ball 49 times. They still got to get the running backs going. Joel, when you look at a a defensive strategy going into a week and you say, wow, 49-yard touchdown, Owen's kind of airing the ball out. Obviously that wasn't anything that defenses had to prepare for beforehand, but now Boise State coming into this weekend, do they have to respect the long ball a little bit? And is that going to help them get the running game going on Saturday? Joel Walton: Absolutely. It's night and day compared to what we were doing as an offense when Cadin at the helm. Yeah, defenses are gonna have to pay attention. I was saying it before in our in our in our pods. before if I was if I was defensive coach and I was trying to game plan against us, I would have said like keep on blitzing up the middle, you know, make it make them make decisions quick, don't let them get settled at all and make him, you know, spill out backwards or or leak slowly to the side because that's where we can sack him. I don't see that with Owens. The way that he stepped in the pocket, I expected him to play tall, but I didn't expect him to be, you know, running the rock the way he was, and standing up tall to to get that beast out down the field. He was even on the one that where he threw the interception, I mean he was he was rowing that joker. Gavin called Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Joel Walton: you need to go Lee Leroy Jenkins on it. And then like Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Gavin Hite: Yeah. Joel Walton: a play later, he just launched that joker. I was like, gosh dang it. Like so yeah, Gavin Hite: Ha ha Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Joel Walton: I was like, the defense is gonna have to respect us in that in that venue. Lucas Ingham: For sure. And it's nice to see, you know, I know he gets that pick at the end. It's like, but it's worth you have to take those shots. You have to, you know, stretch the defense at some point. And sometimes it's gonna end up being a pick. Sometimes you're gonna get a pass interference. We saw that a couple of times on Saturday. When you take the chances, those things can happen. And you know, whether it's the strength of your game or not, it's just something that you you have to make the defenses respect. And I wish they had done it earlier in the game because I think what they showed was that you know, some success moving the ball. You know, maybe not to the extent they had in the second half, but they were in positions where maybe they could have kept themselves in the game and and Gavin it felt like they made some decisions that I know a lot of fans weren't happy about, but were more on the conservative side. It felt like they were playing not to lose, trusting the defense, that kind of mentality. What what were just your takeaways? I know we talked a little bit before we started recording about that, but just your takeaway from those decision makings and go wherever you want with with Owen as well and what you thought of his game. Gavin Hite: Yeah, I and Joel Joel kind of hinted at it. I I call it Leroy Jenkins football. you need to play a little eff at football right now. You're especially it was twenty to three. This is the first time I saw this and I was like, what are we doing? It was fourth and one around the around the midfield line. and it was twenty to three. And like you're playing against the number one offense in the one of the best offenses that you're gonna face all s all season. Why would it the scores if you give the ball back to him, there's a good chance it's gonna be 27 to three. Why not take a chance and go for it? You have a quarterback in that's actually moving the ball around. Now, granted, he got off to not a slow start, but a slow worse start. It took him a little bit, and he's a red trip freshman. I expected that. As soon as he got settled in, man, was he dialed. He was able to hit BG Lucas Ingham: For sure. Gavin Hite: for for a handful of of of catches. and he was able to hit, you know, Daniel Blood. He was able to hit some of these other guys. I I there's really no reason we'd we don't play Leroy Jenkins style football and just go all in. Cause what do we have to lose? If we lose one more game, we don't get postseason. So at this point in time, go out, ball out, and

and and play play a little Mike Leach football. Go for it on fourth and one. Be crazy. Do something wild because the worst thing that'll happen is that you'll win. That's the that's like the or you'll lose trying. You know, I right now we play Lucas Ingham: Totally. Gavin Hite: I I in my opinion, just two. Much conservative this year. Go for it. Go take that. You have a quarterback now that can get the ball going. Now, granted, we still got things to work on on the run game. I I I think we have three really good running backs we haven't unlocked yet. And I think I I don't know if that's a scheme issue. I don't know if that's an offensive line issue. I I don't know. I wish I could tell you I I hate bringing a problem to the table and not having a solution. This is one that I just as an if I was an offensive coordinator, man, I'd be, I'd be trying to Rubik's Cube this one and find out why my Running backs aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing or or getting the yards that they're supposed to be getting, because they're good, they're very good running backs. So if we can get that gu running, and maybe it starts with the the passing game. If we open up the passing game, maybe work backwards and it roll opens up the run game. We'll see what happens this week as Boise State is absolutely preparing for a passing game. so Lucas Ingham: For sure. Gavin Hite: I yeah, I was frustrated in in some of those fourth and and whatevers. And and not going for it. At this point in time, you have absolutely nothing to lose other than to try and and and get as close to winning as possible. Go go and win. Go and win. And and to Kirby Moore, man, I got nothing but respect for you. But dude, go get your first FPS win. Go go get Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Gavin Hite: that one. Go get that one. I'm hungry for you, man. Go get that one. I'm rooting for him. Swing the sword. Joel Walton: Ways deserve it. The ways deserve it. Lucas Ingham: Yep. Swing your sword. Swing your sword. No, I I think you're totally right. And it's kind of what we've seen throughout the course of the season. And I and I think it's a young head coach who maybe doesn't necessarily understand exactly the situation environment that he's in. He's just spent the last three years at Missouri, SEC offensive lineman, running the ball up the middle. And we saw a lot of the same thing with Jimmy Rogers. And I think we talked about this earlier in the season, Gavin, where it's just like kind of round peg, square hole kind of thing where it's gonna we're trying to, you know, run between the tackles and Greg Woods has done an awesome job of pointing this out. I mean, these guys were recruited to play the air raid on offensive line. And so they're being asked to run block in a way that they're not prepared to do. They can, they can pass block great. You know, I think they've been, I think they're a pretty underrated unit as far as that goes. And then the the gaps are gonna open up when you're pass blocking, you're

throwing the ball down the field, and then, you know, there's less people at the line of scrimmage. And so Boise State's been pretty. Mediocre on defense this year. They miss a lot of tackles. They're not the stall worth of the defense that they used to be, or at least have been in recent years. So I think that's something that they can, they can maybe exploit. And we'll see. I I know we talked about this a little bit beforehand, so I wanted to touch on it. And anyone can jump in. The the whole the Brad Laurondo talk that went around this week, kind of about his importance to the program. Maybe there was some misses, and I don't know from my perspective. Missing an evaluation on one player and happened out to be the most important position doesn't make your whole roster a failure. I I think that's, you know, you made you made one miss and they had to put together a lot in a long time. But I I think the rest of the team has a lot of positive to offer. So Chad, you look like you're rearing to go. So if you want to hop in on on on on that. Chad Kebba: Yeah, I get pretty fired up about this. And I think it's just bad reporting by John Canzano, getting Lucas Ingham: I agree. Chad Kebba: information and it's cle i i he he told his boys that it was a booster that gave him the information. I'd have to go back the last fifteen years as a Koog fan. When was the last time a booster's interfered with football? Just that that's all I need to ask. Lucas Ingham: No kidding. I wish they would. Yeah. Chad Kebba: every time it's been a former president, it's been somebody in a director kind of role or athletics admin. It's been one of those three. And if it hasn't been, somebody correct me and tell me the story, I'd love to hear it. It's not a donor. Don't tell me false it's just hearsay stuff, and I get sick and tired of it. And somebody trying to find a scapegoat. I hope that individual in the athletic department that's talking to John, you sign an NDA most likely, talking about what players are getting paid. That's a no no. So don't do that again. Thank you. Go kooks. I have not Joel Walton: I'm gonna pull the ignorance Lucas Ingham: Gavin, Joel, anything you wanna add to that, Joel, anything you wanna Joel Walton: card. No, no, no, no, no. Lucas Ingham: add? Joel Walton: My only ad is a question. So it's really more of like I'm I'm probably taken away and you guys will put back it where I where I pull. What happened? So what what took place? The I heard you say that the Gavin Hite: So Twit Twitterless Lucas Ingham: John Canzano Gavin Hite: Twitterless Joel for context, Twitterless Joel does not see what's going on on Twitter. So we're we're filling him in right now. Joel Walton: Appreciate you. I'm gonna be honest. I'm out there Lucas Ingham: Gotcha. Joel Walton: in the woods just digging digging trenches. I Lucas Ingham: In good in Joel Walton: don't know what Lucas Ingham: in good context to add for the fans as well, John Canzano, who who I think in general

does a really, really good job reporting on Northwest football, Pac twelve, was on Jason Puckett's show and basically said that there maybe was some misappropriation of funds and that WCU spent more on their roster than Oregon State and there's players that they're paying that aren't playing and maybe Brad Laurondo, the general manager, is gonna be made Me bait a scapegoat at the end of this year, if you know things don't get corrected and all that stuff. And there might be some credence to the idea that they're paying some players that aren't playing. I think when you have a roster as big as they do, that's that's gonna happen. You can't hit on every single guy. and I think what they had to do, the the burden that they had to lift of replacing an entire defense, they hit a lot more than they missed. And and I think what if the offense, and in Chad, I'll let you jump in in a second, but I think the offense isn't like retaining their running backs is like still a really big deal and should be something that they are proud of. The collective is proud of. And I I I just think he's such a valuable asset to the school coming over from the SEC with an NIL background. and he doesn't do player evaluation. That's the coach's job. So I d I do not think he'll be made to be a scapegoat at end of the year. Yeah. Chad Kebba: You na you nailed it, Luke. I I I think the biggest thing to call out to is just John not understanding his role. And that's I think that's really where the issue started. It's common. It's like we Lucas Ingham: For sure. Chad Kebba: haven't had that before. It's mor normally been like a chief of staff type role. Like I remember that like Emmerich, when Leach first brought him in, that was like the first time I've seen something like that. And and then Antonio Huffman was the next guy up that did that kind of role. So those guys were more of organizing the The snacks, the food, the the Lucas Ingham: Heheheh. Chad Kebba: travels, the fill in the blank, helping out like almost like a flight attendant for the football team, but they've separated that role now with NIL and I mean it's just it's just completely different. They have somebody fo focus solely on like what's that budget and here's the money we have allowed to probably teams and it's kinda goes from there, right? to to position groups, I mean. That's kinda that's how he works it. Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Right. And and there's a difference now because I know I I was listening to Greg and Jamie in the in Jimmy's guy, j general manager, and Jake's general manager both were involved in player evaluation. So I think that's a lot of what happens around college football. And I I the comparison to Oregon State, I think he's involved in player evaluation. Although he was not responsible for signing Jesse Legree, which would be like the big thing they get touted for. So I don't know. I I just thought it was a rushed comparison, and it's like you have to find something that's going wrong with a team that's one and six. And I think when we look back at it, it might just be as simple as they they didn't start the right quarterback at the end of the day. Do you guys think there's something too? We I know we're talking about this a little bit before, and then we can move on to Boise State. We're kind of just seeing poor quarterback play around college football in general. There's a handful of guys Trinidad Chambliss, Drew Mestermaker. But our our guy John Matteer, you know, would be a great example of somebody who hasn't developed in the way in you know, I root for John every Saturday, but his career has not gone the way that he would have wanted. And I'll start with Joel and then we can kind of go around. But when you're a college football player and you're transferring from place to place to place, how much is that stunting their development? And especially at the quarterback position where the mental aspect of the game is almost as important as the physical? Joel Walton: It is it's it's definitely having an effect. I mean, I I hate to be the guy that does this public back in my day. Lucas Ingham: Ha ha. Gavin Hite: Mm-hmm. Joel Walton: it it just although players had a tr you know with transfer, it happened maybe once in their whole athletic career, college athletic career. you know, and myself coming from JUCO to where I landed at SCS, I knew I needed to have some type of continuity. You know, I followed a teammate. That I had played with the JUCO ball in Arizona Western to Charleston Southern. And it was purposeful. just because everyone thinks of the X's and O's, you know, your scheming, what have you, but it's also the level of confidence that you have in yourself and those that you're gonna play with you, those that you're gonna entrust to like if you b especially if you believe that you're gonna make it to the next level, because anything that chips away from that rock of confidence, it it's hard to replace. It's hard to get back into a state of like, we're What was I like when I was successful? And I think that's what's happening. Football is not just like, A, it's like, you know, plus one plus two equals three. It doesn't work out that way. There's times where you're doing really, really well. You could be doing really well a spring ball, you could be doing really well in in workouts, you could be doing really well in film, you could be pointing things out. but when the rubber hits the road, when it gets real in the eye in the s in the sky, you have a couple of slips and you start questioning yourself on the field, that's real. and and I I think What's people are starting to see now is why it seems so so big and massive. We're putting a magnifying glass on people that don't do not have confidence, not too much starting with themselves, but with those around them. Like how do you know people Lucas Ingham: For sure. Joel Walton: have been to war with them in terms of like workouts and scheming? So as soon as things start to fall,

everybody's looking for for the the the scapegoat. And sometimes as as a quarterback, you're the one. Everybody's gonna look at you first. So it it ch it Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Joel Walton: chops away from that confidence. Lucas Ingham: I think people overlook the mental aspect of sports so much. They want it to just be so the statistics, the cut and dry. It happens in baseball so much. Batting average or whatever. why isn't this guy succeeding? The Mariners this year, Rob Ref Snyder, why can't this guy succeed? You look at it the WCU this year, there's two examples. You see Caden Pinnick going one way, you see Jack Stevens go the other way. He's completely recovered mentally. And it's such an important part of sports. If if everybody was on the same plane mentally, we'd have a million capable NFL kickers every single weekend, but we don't because they they don't all have the same mental fortitude, the same mental discipline. And it's such a especially for college kids, such an overlooked aspect of the game. and so Chad, what what what are you seeing going on across The sport and maybe just all sports in general, right? Chad Kebba: Yeah, I mean it's just an interesting time with this NIL stuff and you're seeing this college football potential expansion, right? A twenty-four team tournament and so that means more teams in there and I obviously it's a little bit of and we're gonna learn a little bit more about that. We have a nice guest on come tomorrow for the PLUS Playbook, but it's just interesting how it's just more of one ESPN shedding some bad money in some contracts and two, it's almost helping out, you know, b you know, bigger conferences, those schools that are doing the 20 plus million dollar NIL pool, and they're trying to keep boosters happy of like how can I continue to support this if every single year we're winning seven, eight games and we're not in a CFP or not in a playoff conversation. So it's a little bit of scratching Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Kinda like Washington. Chad Kebba: of their bets. Gavin Hite: Yeah. Chad Kebba: Yeah. man, I I love seeing and I'm sorry to get off a tangent, but I love Jed Fish. I I think he's the Lucas Ingham: he's the best. Chad Kebba: second best thing since Tyrone Willingham. I love everything about him. Him and Pat Chunt. Lucas Ingham: Jimmy Lake was pretty good too, but he's up there, yeah. Chad Kebba: Well, Jimmy Lake owned owned Mike Leach. Literally Yeah. Lucas Ingham: Well, true. When he came the head coach though. When he became the head coach. Gavin Hite: Yeah. Chad Kebba: Well yeah. Anyways, but But it just it's really interesting right now with this college football playoff and ever how everything's changing and all these all these players like to win, right? And I think when you look at it too, it's just like shrinking this back from a ten thousand foot view just to like let's talk Pullman. It's like this is a great place like mentally to get right. So when I see guys that are can't

focus in, like, I don't know how you're gonna do it anywhere else. This Pullman's Lucas Ingham: Totally. Chad Kebba: the best place to take a step back and focus on you, brother. Like that's all I wanna say. So and it's it Lucas Ingham: Yeah. That's Joel Walton: literally stand on the mountain. I wanted to do that when we were out there. Chad Kebba: And you're probably Joel, you said Lucas Ingham: perfectly said. Chad Kebba: it too. It's like it's a trust issue, right? So you have to be able to trust and and get comfortable with the players that are around you. And I just look at like we couldn't make a quick decision on changing QBs because you just look at like pro football focused grades to to just watching film to like how we're progressing as an offense. There was nothing, not a single part of our offense that was working well. So it's Lucas Ingham: No, totally. Chad Kebba: kind of hard. Like I just look at kind of I'm answering an earlier question too at the same time, but I just kind of look at like we're here because nobody was doing their job well on offense. The offensive line was grading poorly. BG finally has a big game. Awesome, but I still see a lot of gaps in his game. And I just I don't know if he's a true number Lucas Ingham: Oof. No kidding. Chad Kebba: one receiver, continue to missing out on Tony Freeman. I think that was the biggest thing that hurt us to start this year. But yeah, QB one, not an easy position to play. I think it's the hardest position to play in football. Maybe you can talk about corner, especially at the NFL level, but yeah, I mean QB, you got that you got the microscope on ya, you everybody's watching ya. There's y everything you eat to everything you do on the field to off the field, like it's all discussed. So It's a big spotlight and I see Owen as somebody that's gonna really step in and play well these next couple of weeks and hopefully he continues to say that he loves the program, loves his engineering degree, loves Pullman, Lucas Ingham: Yep. Joel Walton: Ha ha ha. Gavin Hite: Yeah. Chad Kebba: and he does not wanna go back to Norman. So But either way, and I I'm gonna Joel Walton: Please. Lucas Ingham: Hopefully hopefully that is the case. Gavin Hite: Bring him back. Chad Kebba: r and I'll wrap this up too, and I think like Kook fans just need to hear this, and I've said this and people don't like it or they love it because they get it. It's Pullman's at that perfect intersection of FCS all Americans that want to take a step up and power four guys that want an opportunity. And the problem with that being at that crossroads, they're eventually going to cross through again. And it's Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm. Chad Kebba: one, we need to make sure we have the right staff in place to evaluate players. That's where and I get where all this tomfoolery came from, John Consano. Like I I get it because that's what you have to look at right now, because Pullman's the perfect place. for where we need to be as a program. We're not gonna if we go to power four, we're not gonna have the budget for power four unless we're getting some serious T V money. That's how I'm gonna leave it. So I'm comfortable with where we're at, but we gotta make sure our coaches are comfortable with where we're at too. Lucas Ingham: Totally. That's something Gavin, I remember when I had you on before the season, we talked a lot about that intersection between getting that top FCS talent and guys like DJ Warner and Take Hawkins who weren't getting the playing opportunity they were wanting at the power for it level and wanting to come here. And I think it offers us such a level to have success in a conference where, you know, we still I think the legacy part of it carries some weight. It it appears that we're, you know, in the upper echelon of the conference and NIL roster. I did want to touch on Chad's comments before I throw it over to you, Gavin, about the twenty-four team playoff. Obviously, ESPN, all these networks are chasing this fast money. I talked about it with Alex Brink. The money is going to stop. They are going to chase this money until it's gone. It's gonna take, I don't know how long it's gonna take, five years, ten years, but they're chasing this money and it's just one day it's all gonna be gone because they're gonna murder the product that they're paying all this money for, and then people aren't gonna wanna pay a lot of money for it. So They're just going down a rabbit hole and it's sad what they're doing. But 2014 playoff, a lot easier for Washington State, Oregon State, Boise State to get in from year to year, maybe even host a home game. So I guess you just have to try to look at the positive of it. But Gavin, as we wrap up before we move on to just, you know, previewing Boise State super quick. Anything you want to add on any of those topics? We haven't gotten to you in a minute here. Gavin Hite: Yeah. So the big one is, you know, I I've noticed since the transfer portal, and and granted, I was coaching college baseball back in in twenty twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen when the transfer portal first became a a a thing. And it was news to us at the division two level. I was like, okay, this is wild. I'm used to picking up the phone and and calling all these college coaches, hey, who you letting go at in December that we can pick up, you know, for the for the next year and everything. and then this transfer portal hits, and now we've got this thing, and it's evolved every year with the way that it's being utilized. And it still seems like they're still trying to enhance how it's being re they're trying still trying to regulate it in all in all honesty. Regulation of that, Lucas Ingham: Yes. Gavin Hite: regulation of NIL and it regulation of all of this. It seems like it's still kind of just this big you know what? I'll I'll I'll I'll stay Joel Walton: Demon. Gavin Hite: PG. I'll stay PG on this episode. but Chad Kebba: You can't enforce a thing, Gavin. Lucas

Ingham: Yeah. Gavin Hite: Can't triple stamp and double stamp. but what's what what's crazy is you got these kids that are moving from place to place. And at the quarterback level, it is so difficult to learn a playbook and know exactly what all your receivers are doing. And so to go from place to place to place, coach to coach to coach, players to players to players, and having to lose you know, learn this thing over and over and over again, you never really f get fully good at one, and you just kind of keep going. And you're seeing At the next level in the NFL draft, people are expecting Caleb Williams to be this absolute all-star at twenty-one years old. And and it's just like it's so difficult to not only grasp that that playbook and your players and the nuances of the NFL and be able Lucas Ingham: Cam Ward. Gavin Hite: to be Cam Ward. It's it's these these guys need a c a couple years of understanding this this Lucas Ingham: yeah. Gavin Hite: name name a first round draft pick in the last five years that's that's gone off and done Just incredible things. It's it's very minimal numbers when it comes to that. And so what how I kind of dial that back is look at what look what happened look at what's happening with Fernando Mendoza in in Las Vegas. He's taken a back seat, he was the first overall pick. He's Joel Walton: Smart. Gavin Hite: got a great mentor in Tom Brady and Kirko Bangs right in front of him. He's gonna be well groomed. Yeah, I still call him Kirko Bangs. That's that's a great name for him. Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Gavin Hite: but Joel Walton: I was gonna say Kirkho, I no Kirk. Gavin Hite: so that's I I really feel like that's how you evolve. And and I'm not saying that you can't go chase your dollar and get your get your money's worth. You gotta do what's best for you, and you gotta do what's best for your family hundred percent. I think it's gonna take at least another five, ten years because it's it is gonna be an adapter die situation. So five, ten years from now, this could be the norm, and this is what everybody's used to, and everybody can kind of evolve. To that. However, since 2018 to now, there's still a lot of regulation. There's still a lot of, okay, I don't know what to do. I'm still figuring this out. I just got to meet this coach. Now I'm already leaving. I got the head or I got the starting quarterback position in Caden Pinnock. Now I'm leaving again. I'm trying to figure this out. I'm trying to go here. There's a lot of still figuring stuff out. And I think as it smooths out, you'll start to see that come back. But the product at the next level from your first round draft picks and the expectation from that first round draft pick from the quarterback position, I'm only Singling out the quarterback position, you're seeing that it's it's it's diluted and you're seeing that quarterback take a little bit longer. Sam Darnold. Understandably he's not having the great year, greatest year this year, but look what he did last

year. The guy came back. it's taken guys a couple years to really surface at the NFL level, and that's not against them. I I think it's just what's ingrained in in NCAA football right now, and that's translating up. Lucas Ingham: Totally. You get better with competing against another person for a starting role, staying with the same coaches. I mean, all these things that we've heard, you know, all our lives about how you develop as a player. And those things are are, you know, aren't happening. Players are leaving because they want more playing time and and then that's not forcing them to get better. They're just playing at a different level. And so I hope the with everything that's going on and we can, you know, focus back in now on like the you know, the X's and O's of like this team, but like big picture wise, like everything that they're trying to do to regulate it. I hope I hope it works out because I think it's just in a very dangerous, volatile spot where these people who don't really care about the kids or the the health of the sport are just gonna keep chasing this money and and keep pushing this sport down a rabbit hole that it might not recover from if they keep going. But Gavin, I know you have some takes you want to get off about Boise State this weekend. We love Owen Eshelman's game. We hope he stays in Pullman on the topic of adapt or die. Join the Cougar collective, join the eighteen ninety club. Chad's wearing the hat. What are you expecting this weekend? Are the Couggs a live dog here? Twelve and a half point underdogs homecoming weekend. Gavin Hite: I think th again, I you know, we I didn't give my prediction before we we were talking about this Boise State game. I have maybe it may be a hot take. I don't know, you can call it whatever you want to call it. you gotta play Leroy Jenkins football. If if you're gonna go out there and play some eff at football, you got nothing to lose. And that's that's how you have to play. In all honesty, you don't have anything to lose. If you lose one more game, you don't get that extra game at the end of the year. You get nothing. You get nothing. Why not try and go spoil someone's season? Why not try and and and And and this is the team that you could potentially do that with when they still are are looking at one game of footage on on your quarterback who looks like he's gonna be primed on a defense that may not be as good as maybe this historically has been for Boise State. They're still I I still think they're not a terrible defense by by any standard, but but Lucas Ingham: No gosh, no, gosh, no. Gavin Hite: you know, it it's it's it's historically not as good as what what we've seen from Boise State and what they have produced in the past. You have an opportunity to go out and and and spoil someone's season. And as much as I want to see a Pac 12 representative Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Gavin Hite: in in the CFP, as much as I want that, I'm I'm all coug right now. You gotta go in and you gotta spoil someone's season and you gotta be hungry for it. You gotta go want it more than them. And and I I sound like a coach talking to my players on the sideline, but Lucas Ingham: Ha ha ha. Gavin Hite: you gotta you seriously gotta go want it more than them. You gotta say, you know what, eff it, we're gonna go for it. I'm fourth and two in our own territory because we're down twenty to three. Because we want to win. And if we don't, if we don't keep the ball, they're going to score anyways. Might as well try. Might as well take some more time. At the very worst, if you get one extra first down and you get, you know, blocked in the next four, or yeah, blocked in the next four, at least your defense got another, what, five minutes to breathe. Give your defense time. I've been saying this all year. Let your defense breathe just a little bit more. They've been working their asses off for you. Lucas Ingham: Yeah. And Joel Walton: Appreciate brother. Lucas Ingham: and hopefully hopefully it's gonna be a good homecoming crowd. We got a flyover before the game. Maybe that will give them a little extra juice. Probably a lot of Boise State fans. But Chad, how is WCU gonna win this football game? Chad Kebba: Well Gavin, I'm there with you on Leroy Jenkins football, whatever the heck that means. I like it. I need to l do a little bit more reading on it though. Gavin Hite: I'll send it to you. Chad Kebba: I my thought is my thought is Joel Walton: Yeah, you guys said it in the clip. War of the Warcraft. Chad Kebba: trick plays. Like cougs have been beat by trick plays year over year. Lucas Ingham: Ugh. Chad Kebba: And I don't remember the last time we've tried one. So I'm right there with you. Let's get a little creative. Lucas Ingham: Caden Pinnox flea flicker pick that it's not burned into your brain like it is mine. There you go. Chad Kebba: That is not gonna successful trick plays. We'll go with that. Gavin Hite: Ha ha. Joel Walton: Right. Chad Kebba: So I think offensive Joel Walton: Execution, execution. Chad Kebba: offensively that's how I want to look at it. We gotta be a little more risky in that. And I think with the passing game, Lucas, you said it earlier, like with our passing game, our running game should develop. but on you know the Boise State side of the ball, they have five good players that I've seen and and I watched that Fresno State Boise State game before they went on their bye last week, but a few different Players. I know their defensive end. I mean, he's gonna be a top three round Lucas Ingham: yeah. Chad Kebba: guy. I think it's Jaden Morgan is his last name. really good defensive end. obviously their running back Riley. He's I mean from an offensive perspective, they're averaging about 215 yards rushing a game, something ridiculous like that. So they their running game is strong, but that running back looks really good because I think that O-line is the best position group in the Pac-12 currently. you watched that Fresno State

game, they were getting to the second, third level on those running plays, passing plays. They were doing they were lights out, making Maddox Madsen look a lot better than I really think he is. I would remind Kook fans that even going into this last portal season, there was rumblings that Boise fans wanted to change at QB. So obviously Madsen is playing really well this year. He's I think he's a fifth year player too, so a senior coming into his own. So he he's a pretty solid passer overall. He's come a long way over the last few years. So their right guard, Roger Carrion, he's been like pro football focused, continuously seeing his name pop up from a guard perspective, grading very high, probably their best offensive lineman. and then linebacker Bowen Phelps. Phelps, I've seen him show up on film too a lot. The guy runs hard, big time hitter. You're gonna see in the middle of that defense causing some havoc. How are the coups gonna win this game? Slowing down that run game. We got to. Lucas Ingham: Yep. Chad Kebba: And I feel really good about it with our defensive tackle group. I'd like to see the defense ends play better, contain, move that, get the ball back inside. and don't get beat with the big plays. That's also how you see Boise State, they're big they continuously put up, you know, 30 plus yard runs or big time passes in a key pivotal moment in the game. So Gotta eliminate those big plays, gotta win on first down. Really. You gotta smack Lucas Ingham: Yep. Chad Kebba: in the mouth on first down. So I think it's gonna be a low scoring game. I didn't see the total points, but that twelve point line has me really thinking about the Kooks. Cougs covering for sure. Calling it a Washington State victory though. I'm w I've only gotten one of these right though, so don't don't bet. Gavin Hite: Yeah. Lucas Ingham: I have a hard time 'cause our buddy, our our good friend Jim Moore always laying down a hundred on the coux and he has not been a hot follow this year in terms of gambling. But I'm total Chad Kebba: Lucas, no he talked about cover though for Oregon State. I saw his tweet. He said that line keeps going up to twenty. I'd like I was like, Jim, I'm gonna follow. Lucas Ingham: Well, if he picks us to cover every weekend then it's like, how do you really guess like what's his win loss on that? Gavin Hite: Yeah. Chad Kebba: All I have to say is, Jim, you made me money. Thanks, buddy. Gavin Hite: Yeah. Lucas Ingham: no, I think you're totally right about their player personnel. I mean, Riley's awesome, but their other back gains is is a dog as well. I mean, they're gonna be a real, Chad Kebba: Good. Yeah. Yep. Lucas Ingham: real problem. And, you know, I talked to Nathan Carroll from Boise State before the season, and I'm gonna talk to him again, and it it will be, you know, at some point during this episode, just about Maddox Madison, and and that was really what was gonna stop them from, you know, reaching their ceiling as a team was whether

Madison was gonna be that guy or not. Thirteen touchdowns, no interceptions this year. That's all he has to do. He's got to make the passes to the tight ends. And Chad Kebba: Point guard. Lucas Ingham: he's got to hand the ball over to Riley and Gaines. And, you know, it's the same thing with Ashton Genty. I mean, he's a game manager, but I think this is Jamie Vinnick's words, so I don't wanna get copyrighted, but it it it he's a damn good game manager. I mean, he he's good at what he does. And they're gonna be formidable even if it's not as sexy as you know, an air raid a spread out offense. They're they're gonna be a a a big task to handle. So, Joel, when you're When you're looking at how you have to stop them, it it sounds simple to just say, you know, Caden BD's gotta get, you know, inside and be good run blocking and their tight ends are gonna be a big problem because I know the the linebacking coverage hasn't been, you know, maybe to the standard that WC would like to see, but Chad hit on some of the things, but what are just your keys when you're looking at of how how can we stop Boise State on Saturday? Joel Walton: We need to play a version of Leroy Jenkins on defense. So I I'm I'm looking at it, you know, the the other side of the corn is coin is true. I I started watching some games in preparation for this. and I'll be honest, Boise State makes me nervous on the ground on the ground. as you guys are talking about Pat Rally. he is tremendous. but he's tremendous with momentum. what we have been trying to do is give Cushion play one hand one man high, you know, manning on the outside, and and saying that you know, our defensive line can by themselves do the rush, we need to throw some of that out the window. I respect Coach Bray. You know, I get it. You know, it's like trying to to, you know, say, hey, we can lean on our our D Bs, we can lean on that core. but we've been pushing on them too much. Although D line has had moments against the rush, this is gonna be paramount for us. and I don't think that we should Doesn't sound bad because I'm a defensive lineman. I don't think we need to do any more stunt games from the outside. It needs to all be focused to the inside if we're gonna win this game for with the D-tackles. That's where our strength is. And looking at their offensive line, that's where we can get penetration because their tackles are obese. and we need to blitz like our hair is on fire and the ball is the water bucket. We need to we need to cool the down, we need to tackle the ball. We need to actually force some turnovers. We haven't been doing it. no more of these like single-digit sack games. As a unit, we need to terrify some people. And this could be the first Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Joel Walton: game to do it. Make people like, hey, I I don't know if I really want to catch over the middle. You know, they're they're coming like Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Joel Walton: there's something wrong with them. You know, so Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Joel Walton: that if that's what we need to be, this could be our note. Lucas Ingham: For sure. I I think y you know, honestly to just to touch on something with the defense, the the line the defensive line has I I think generally been a little disappointing from what we've heard coming out of Fall Camp. I I thought they were gonna be a lot more Joel Walton: And spent time. Lucas Ingham: game wreckers and make a big a big difference. And and they've been good. They they have not been bad. So it's not to say that, but I think when you talk when you look at this matchup stylistically compared to Oregon State, I think I can't remember if this was during the pot or beforehand, but Chad was talking about maybe y the matchup with the defensive backs who have been great, but maybe they're not the the fastest group. I think this matchup kind of favors WCU more than the one against Oregon State, where obviously Oregon State's running all over the yard, throwing the ball down the field, 12, you know, we all know what a problem he is. Boise State, I think, for WSU's personnel, maybe a slightly better matchup. Let's stuff it up the middle. Let's get Caden Beattie, Lilopatelle in there. You know, there's not gonna be as much dynamicism on the outsides for the DBs to deal with. I feel better about them and man coverage. And so not necessarily that I have like, my gosh, they're gonna they're gonna stop Boise State. They're gonna hold them under twenty or something like that. But I I feel like stylistically roster wise, maybe it's a better matchup than Oregon State was. Would you agree with that, Joel? Joel Walton: Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's why we need to blitz more. you know, we've we've been doing this this four man, but you know, I'm not saying we blitz off completely off the edge, but through the B gaps, we need to make them nervous. He he does not like to step up. He is he plays as every bit as the size that he is, Maddox, from what I can see. He is a little stout joker, like go ahead and get it. a little five foot tenner. Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm. Joel Walton: so make him, you know, where he feels comfortable and confident, it seems like it's when he's rolling out to the strong side. So, you know, strong side blitz. Through the b through the B gap as many times as we can. I think it'll make a difference is make him make him get nervous going backwards instead of like naturally rolling to the out to the side forward. We need him to like change up his pace. cause I think w most of the plays that he's doing, they're very quick releases, you know, short dumps, right? A lot of the big plays they have is all yak. Right. So force him to try and go up down the field. Like, hey, like, you think you can like let's see if you can bomb it. Let's see if you can if you can lean back and Leroy Jenkins that like Owens did. Let's see what you got in that in that cannon. Gavin Hite: Well, I want to add one more thing, one more flavor to that. We've talked about

how deep this defensive line is. If we're going balls to the wall, Leroy Jenkins style football on both sides, especially this defense, we are four lines deep, maybe three lines with maybe some injuries and some guys. I I I don't know exactly what's going on, with the the lower depth and everything. But we we have a really good, depthy defensive line. This is the perfect time to blitz and Blitz often, blitz ever blitz all the time, and keep rotating guys in to keep everybody healthy. That was just my thought on on that. Just to kind of, hey, you have the the depth to do it. Go get go get it done. Lucas Ingham: I agree. you Malachi's missed the last couple weeks. I think that's been a big deal for them because I think them rotating him in helped a lot. And yeah, Joel mentions the four person, you know, the four-man rush. I I think that's a big thing, you know, they try to do at the at the NFL level because you get to have more people in coverage. And it's like if you have the best four-man rush in the league, then it it really helps you create a better defense all around that. It can make up for a lot of mistakes around that. And like you said, they've been doing that for a lot of the season. It works against Fresno State in in Utah State, because they're they're not airing the ball down the field in the same way. But I think it's time to start committing some more bodies at the line and and maybe breaking away and saying Maddox Madsen can be turnover prone. We've seen him really struggle against higher competition. And so if you can force him into some tough spots like you're talking about, he absolutely can you can, you know, you can make him create some mistakes for him, which, like you said, they ha they haven't done this year. It's been the other way around. The turnover margin has been. absolutely killer for them, which it wasn't on Saturday, but they just got beat, but at you know, earlier in the season. Chad had a couple trick plays I wanted to get to you because I had a couple off the top of my head. The fake punt to Dion Henley in the Apple Cup. Do you remember that one? That was pretty good. Chad Kebba: Okay, I'll give you that. Lucas Ingham: Cam Ward, Joel Walton: You that Lucas Ingham: John Mateer lines up Cam Ward in the flat. That one. That was a little trickeration. Chad Kebba: I think that could count as a trick play. They were just running two different positions and he was pla one was playing receiver. Lucas Ingham: Okay, and they also had a fake punt in that game too that they picked up a first down on. So I got three from the Dickert era. I can't remember. I don't think Jimmy was running. Or the the first touchdown against Ole Miss. We have more than you think. You just gotta you just gotta start reaching back. Chad Kebba: Yeah. Yeah, and I think it's more having trust in the QB. Gavin Hite: The whole Chad Kebba: And no offense to Zevi last year. I just I just didn't have trust in in him to run those kind of that offense, taking the next step with that. I see that with Owen. I see little Jason Gesser two point and and I get excited every time. So I think Lucas Ingham: For sure. Chad Kebba: he has that kind of moxie. I'd say unleash him. Let's see it. That's just my thought. Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Gavin, you had something? Gavin Hite: I was just gonna say you were talking about John Mateer, Cam Ward. I I love that they got Julian Duggar in involved. And all I'm saying is it's in the tank. We know Julian Duggar is an extremely athletic human Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Joel Walton: Yeah. That could be that wrinkle. Yeah. Wildcat bit back. Chad Kebba: True. Look good. Gavin Hite: being, and he can still pass the ball five, 10 yards, maybe even 15, 20 really well. I don't know. I I'm just saying you have you have a another quarterback that could be back there that could that could also cause damage, and you have some plays that you can install to finish out and play some legal. Jenkins Down. Lucas Ingham: Totally. I I think you're totally right. And I thought it was awesome that they got him in on the goal line and it worked. And so now that the defenses have to prepare for that, they maybe, you know, the next time they get him in this weekend, it's gonna be a passing touchdown. I'd love to see that, you know, mix it up now that they seen the package out there. I I'm so glad you mentioned that. I had rid that that written down. But Gavin, I'll start with you. We'll go around. Anything you that guys wanna get on here, before we Gavin Hite: Yeah. Lucas Ingham: before we we get on out of here because we've got a little long. Gavin Hite: No, I and you know what? I I mentioned Julian Duggar's you five, ten, fifteen yards. I I don't mean to limit him. He might have a deeper ball than that. I I to be honest, I haven't seen we we weren't we aren't privy to see what happens in the spring at these practices and everything. I have no idea. Maybe he has a canon. We just haven't seen it. I don't want to just limit Julian Duggar on on that. I I apologize if it came across that way, but I do want to say Julian Duggar getting in the game is good is good for for Cougar football. And I think you have something to work with moving forward. Lucas Ingham: For sure. Chad, anything any last parting words? Chad Kebba: Well, I'll be down there with you in Pullman for Boise State. Looking forward to it again down there Friday night. If there's any Koog fans out there looking s for a good time, having some fun and I don't know, Valhalla Hit me up, man. Let's hang out. You'll find us. You'll find us. Lucas Ingham: Yeah, we'll we'll be at Valhalla again, I imagine. Yeah. Joel Joel Walton: I'm liking everything I'm hearing. I think you know, this could be a game where, you know, I don't wanna say we stay competitive, but I say we stay defensive. You know, if we if we show who we've been before, I think we can make some other teams nervous. And there's some folks that wanna get to the league, let's prove it.

Lucas Ingham: Yep. Boys, this has been awesome. We went way longer. Check them all out, guys. YouTube, the Up West, the Palouse Playbook is where you'll find them. what do we have dropping this week, Gavin? Gavin Hite: this week we're probably gonna be doing another probably a little Boise State rundown on our show as well at some point this week. If not, we'll just do our our lives as as normal. We'll do we'll do Saturday night after the game, usually when our our kiddos go down to bed. we usually jump on around eight, eight, eight or nine, depending on when what time the game gets over, all that good stuff. But that and then also if you're a fan of you know the Pac 12, you want to know what's going on around there. I usually throw out a video once a week just kind of circulating the pack. Pac 12, called the Pac Pulls. So check out those this week. And then Chad, you had something fun. I'm gonna toss it to you, buddy. Joel Walton: I wasn't sure if you want to tease it. Chad Kebba: Well, we we have we have two other guests too coming on this week. I'm actually kinda Lucas Ingham: Ooh. Chad Kebba: really excited about it. I know we have another one next week, not fully confirmed, but we have Hurley Media getting on to talk to us. What does this new CFP look like? Why is it happening? A lot to unra untangle right there. So that'll be a fun one. And then w there's a coup out there that wants to be butch. And we're doing a do a little job interview and see if we can get that onto Cantwell's desk. So That will be Thursday at nine PM we go on. We'll probably post it maybe the next morning. So probably Friday you'll see it. Lucas Ingham: Nice. Awesome tease. Perfect way to get out of here. Boys, I really appreciate it. Can't wait to see you on Friday, Chad. Go kooks. Gavin Hite: Go cooks, baby. Lucas Ingham: All right, hello everyone. Today we are joined by Nathan Carroll from Bronco Nation News. He's rejoining us. We talked before this season, thought it'd be the perfect time to have him back on, talk about where Boise State's at ahead of the Snake River rivalry, which I know is catching on around the Pac twelve circles. So Nathan, how you doing today? Nathan Carroll - BNN: Doing well Lucas. Excited to be back on and and talking cougs, talking Boise State and yeah, excited to get to sit down and and chat with you for a little bit here. Lucas Ingham: Yeah, it was a lot of fun last time. And I'm just excited to this, these one of those Pac-12 things. I mean, these programs have so many connections from the head coach, the offensive coordinator. some really fun matchups in recent years, obviously, 2024 and 2020 2017, which is remembered as the Holinski game the last time Boise State traveled all the way to Pullman. but just looking from a Broncos perspective here to start, as we're seven weeks into the season, or I guess eight, because they've had a bye, this is kind of where we we thought Boise State would be at this point of the year. What's kind of the

the vibe, the the buzz around the Boise State program? Is this just kind of business as usual as far as Broncos fans are concerned? Nathan Carroll - BNN: Yeah, mean, certainly this is when fans talk about expectations for the program. This is what they want it to look like, right? You know, you're competitive against your top five, top ten caliber opponents, which obviously Oregon's taken a couple losses since then, but I think the Dante Moore version of this team looked Lucas Ingham: For sure. Nathan Carroll - BNN: more like a top ten-ish caliber team. and then have really taken care of business for the most part outside of that game. You know, things got A little sketchy with South Dakota, a little sketchy against Fresno, but ultimately you're five and one. You control your own destiny. Like the this is what fans want to see out of this Boise State program. And right now they're they're living up to to expectations, living up to the hype. So certainly a lot of fans excited about the trajectory of this team and where they're going. And I think right now, you know, eyes are starting to certainly not within the building, but for the fan base looking towards okay, could this be another CFT CFP team? Lucas Ingham: For sure. And you look at the schedule, and there's no reason to believe outside of of maybe the Oregon State contest that that's not a feasibility, that they're that they're gonna go eleven and one. But before we get into the nitty-gritty of this team, we we talked a little bit before, and we talked on the when I had you on the podcast before, just about the general expectation of being in the conference and having these more exciting matchups. And kind of I was looking at the standing state before we got started, and it feels like it's just been kind of a down year for the conference in a way that a lot of people weren't hoping. I mean, the Colorado State Thing hasn't worked out. San Diego State's been really negative. I even think seeing Fresno State in person and Pullman, you I know they had a decent start, but I don't know if that's a quote unquote really quality opponent or a team that could really vie for the conference title. So outside of the Legree story, which has gotten weird this week at Oregon State and Boise, it it feels like it's really been two and then and then the rest of the six. Is there kind of just a general disappointment from coming from the Mountain West? And we had these high expectations for this Pac-12 conference and Is it just is it just feel like it's been a little bit of of a a downer from what our expectations were going into the season? Nathan Carroll - BNN: Yeah, I I don't know where general consensus with the fan base is. I mean, me personally, this is kind of what I expected the league to look like this year. Really, the only team that's been significantly worse than I anticipated was San Diego State. And even then, ton of injuries. They the mumps hits the program. Like, you know, Lucas Ingham: The mom's Nathan Carroll - BNN: it it's been a total anomaly. And last week they started to get healthy and they played really well against Fresno State, right? so Yeah, for me personally, it hasn't so much been a a downer or too much of a surprise. I think some fans might feel that way a little bit, but ultimately I think if there are any Bronco fans or you know, for that matter, Aztec, Bulldog, Aggie, whoever fans about you know how much better is this league than the Mountain West, look at what the bottom of the Mountain West is, and that's ultimately why the Pac-12 deal happened, right? NIU and UTEP are two of the worst teams in the entire country. Wyoming's horrible. San Jose and Hawaii aren't very good. It's like despite the bottom of this league not being very good, like as bad as Colorado State has looked, they'd be a bowl team in the Mountain West, right? 'Cause that's essentially what Wyoming's doing and you know, CSU kind of routed Wyoming. So, yeah, it I don't think much has changed in in that sense. and certainly with basketball season now around the corner, like I think that's where there's real excitement for this league because I just did my my Pac twelve preview for BNN and man, this is a deep league. Like it's gonna be a lot of fun on the basketball side. But I know this isn't a basketball pod, so we don't have to get sidetracked there. But Lucas Ingham: Hehehe Nathan Carroll - BNN: yeah, I I think general sentiment though is you know, at least for me, it's about what we expected. And then I think in the fan base in general, you know, there is still excitement about even if Washington State isn't having a great year, that's a l th there's gonna be a lot more people in the stands and that's a lot better brand than what you saw at a San Jose or a Wyoming or a Nevada, right? So I think in general fans are ex still excited about the move. Lucas Ingham: For sure. And it does feel like the general, like the production of the conference, like this is gonna be the only game on USA network on Saturday, WCU and Boise State. You know, there'll be a lot of Boise State fans in Pullman. It's homecoming. It should hopefully be a pretty solid crowd, like you mentioned. And so there is still some of that going on. But yeah, just to see, I guess from my perspective, to see Colorado State and Utah State and you know Washington State bottom out the way. I know I thought they would be Whatever we thought the floor was, I thought was a little bit higher than that for a lot of these teams, especially Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: a team like Colorado State who just hasn't been able to stop anybody if even if they wanted to. It's been a really unique experience watching them play football. So it it's just been weird. But like you said, the basketball part of it is gonna be super, super interesting. And I think from a TV market value, I mean those games, Utah State, Gonzaga, San Diego State, Boise State, I mean, those are gonna be premier

premiere games that people are gonna be excited to tune into. So conference is gonna have to toot their horn on that this year and and hope that, you know, some of these programs that are having down years compared to what they're used to, even maybe Fresno State taking a jump next year. There just has to be some growth on the football side of things still. But that was a little bit to be expected. But Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: as far as as Boise State and this team goes, we focused a lot on Maddox Madsen before the season and how much he really kind of controlled the destiny of this team. This the ceiling and the floor was Pretty much based off how he was gonna play. The running backs have panned out how we thought the defense maybe a little bit on a different level than we thought. But Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: as far as Maddox Madsen goes, what have you seen from his game? Cause even like you mentioned a top ten matchup with Oregon feels like he w that was one of his his better games against that level of competition. So what have you seen from his game that's really allowed him to kind of take I don't I don't know if it's the next step or, you know, Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: finalize that last part of his game that was missing? Nathan Carroll - BNN: Yeah, I think absolutely he's taken a a leap in his senior year, right? I mean you you said it, that Oregon game, I mean, that wasn't just kind of his best game against a power four competition. That was by far and away his best game against a p I mean y you know, we we talked about I think he had two touchdowns and nine turnovers in his career against power four comp and he throws three scores. Like there were some accuracy issues, but for the most part played really clean football. I think the big thing with Maddox this season, if you go back to the 2024 CFP team, total game manager that year. And the big thing was he wasn't really making plays, but it was just don't turn the ball over, right? And I think he threw six interceptions and had a couple fumbles by the end of the year. Last year, without being able to lean on Ashton Genty so much, the offensive line is a little worse, the receivers are much worse. Starts turning the ball over kind of like crazy, right? and right now through six games, PFF charts him with zero turnover worthy plays. So no dropped interceptions, no fumbles. The big thing with Maddox right now is he's just taking care of the football. And you know, I think Parker Fleming stats of war on Twitter tweeted out a graph about essentially how often do you force teams to go backwards on defense and how often are you going backwards in defense, or excuse me, how often are you going backwards on offense? The Broncos are right now are one of the best teams in the country if they just don't go backwards. Even if they're only getting two or three yards, it's very rarely taking sacks, very rarely taking tackles for losses, very rarely turning the ball over. And that ultimately comes down on the way Maddox is playing. And, you know, is it Kellen Moore throwing for three hundred and fifty yards a game? No. But it's hyper, hyper efficient, hyper s you know, small successful offense. And It it's been you know, his best season of his career so far by a mile, just in terms of what he's doing in terms of of efficiency. He's been more accurate this year, and you know, the PFF grades, which, you know, people have their feelings about PFF grades, but I always do feel like they're pretty directionally correct, right? It's got a ninety point five PFF grade right now. It's like top ten in the country, it's top three in the group of six right now, like Maddox Madsen has definitely ascended and reached a level that I didn't think that that he had in him. Very, very impressed with how he's playing this year. Lucas Ingham: Yeah, it it seems to be the biggest difference. I mean, they easily could have won that Oregon game for the second time Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: in three years, and then he's been taking care of the ball. Like you said, it I I don't know if you mentioned this. I I think it's thirteen touchdowns, no interceptions. I mean, Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: just a as about as well as you could play the game manager role. And I know he's maybe a step above that, but when you have two running backs like Sayer Gaines and Dylan Riley, all you have to do is not not turn the ball over in and then on the defensive side of the ball, they've been doing enough to win games. We've seen them You the Fresno State game you mentioned got got a little hairy. They they gave up some more points, and that's a team we saw come to Pullman and Washington State's defense was on the field for 35 minutes, and they still were only down 16 to 6 with about four minutes to go in the game. So I wouldn't say the most offensively explosive team that I've ever watched. What is, you know, maybe not helped Boise State reach their ceiling that they thought they were capable of on defense? Not not that they've been bad or a bad group, but Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: not Not the ceiling that maybe we thought was possible for this group. Nathan Carroll - BNN: Yeah, it's been a very polarizing defense, right? Just in terms of if you look at like a a spider chart of what they're at, it's not like everything's fortieth percentile. It's you know, they're one of the best defenses in the country of forcing havoc plays, creating tackles for loss in the running game. they are the number one late s late down success rate team in the country. Like teams don't convert third and fourth downs on this defense, but it's also one of the most explosive defenses. Right. Like teams hit explosives on them. the rush defense hasn't been great. In terms of yards per drop back, it hasn't been great. so it's really a boom or bust defensive philosophy. Their whole philosophy is if we can

create negative plays on early downs, right? If we can get a sack on first and ten, we're pretty confident teams aren't going to be able to move the chains on second and sixteen. The issue with that sort of philosophy is that you give up a lot of explosive plays to go with it. And that's what we've seen a lot of early in this season is a lot of times where they're playing cover one or th they run less cover zero this season, but still time to time you'll see a cover zero and you know, if if pressure doesn't get home, teams are hitting big explosives against them, right? and the Fresno game in particular was kind of the culmination of being able to hit a lot of those explosives all at once. whereas we've seen games like against Western Michigan, they don't give up any explosives and that game's a shutout for fifty eight minutes. So It's kind of a case of, you know, which which version of this defense do you get? Do they hit the negative plays consistently or do they not? Because if they do, it's it's a really tough defense and you're gonna be moving backwards a lot. If they don't hit those negatives, then you've got the opportunity to hit a bunch of explosive plays. And I I look back, I think kind of the funniest version of this that we saw was the Memphis game. Memphis scores twenty points the first Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Nathan Carroll - BNN: half, hits like nine explosive plays in the first half. gets shut out in the second half and has like eighty yards in the second half, right? It was just literally you saw it one half to the other, the worst version of this defense, the best version of this defense. So yeah, that's the the defense it it's I I like the way that you know defensive coordinator Eric Shenander puts it, right? Like eighty, ninety percent of the time this looks like a really, really good defense. And the issue right now is the once every nine or ten plays that they're giving up massive explosives that are crushing them. And they feel like if we can just clean up those big explosives so that instead of once every, you know, nine plays, it's once every twelve plays, once every fifteen plays, then this will be a C F P caliber defense. Lucas Ingham: That's super interesting, juxta you know, juxtapositioning against what Washington State has seen this year, because they, you know, obviously through six weeks, they were one of the least explosive offenses in the country. They just couldn't convert any third downs. They were getting no fifteen, twenty yard plays. I think they had I think Pinnock had the lowest yards per attempt, maybe bottom three in the country. And so as WCU makes the quarterback change and they have a little bit of rejuvenation on offense, maybe a little bit airing the ball. down the field, is that something where you're looking at it from a Boise State perspective and say we have to approach this differently than maybe we would have? And I think the line reflects this. I I I think thirteen and a half certainly reflects

I don't think that would be the c the case if the quarterback change hadn't happened. So is Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: there is that kind of one of those things where you're looking at it as like, may maybe they have some of the juice here to hit some of those explosive plays, whereas through the first six weeks they just hadn't shown the capability to do that. Nathan Carroll - BNN: Yeah, I I think Eshelman certainly what he showed was a lot better against Oregon State than than what Caden Pinnick had showed, right? it's got a little bit more juice in him and the ability to to air the ball out. I think the big thing for Boise State is they have had some issues in the past with scrambling quarterbacks, right? And when and when you are a team that runs more man heavy concepts, like that that is going to tend to be one of the weaknesses. So the big thing that I look at is it 'Cause i in terms of the but I guess before I go there, in terms of the passing explosives, like yeah, not not to be rude, but Wazoo's receivers don't necessarily Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Nathan Carroll - BNN: scare me as vertical threats now. Like, I'm not gonna try to Yeah Lucas Ingham: And they shouldn't. They shouldn't. No. Nathan Carroll - BNN: I'm not gonna try to pronounce his last name, but Brandon G Ganashimorthy, thank you. Lucas Ingham: Ganashimmorthy, you just call him BG. Yeah. Nathan Carroll - BNN: like really good you know, I think he's a good r solid receiver, but He's from what Lucas Ingham: For sure. Nathan Carroll - BNN: I've seen more of kind of a short and intermediate guy, not someone who's gonna push vertical a lot. I think the bigger thing for Wazoo in this one where they can cause issues for Boise De Boise State's defense is can Eshelman get going scrambling and creating, you know, because if you break that first tackle with some of the pressures that Boise State brings, it's gonna be a lot of opportunities to scramble and pick up yards. I think Utah State did a pretty good job of exploiting that in in Boise State in in that game earlier in the season. So that's the big thing with the quarterback change that I see as a you know, where could the Kooks give this Boise State defense issues is in Eshelman's ability to to run the football. 'Cause I I was pretty impressed with with him being able to scoot against Oregon State. And i I it's you know, it's obvious he had what, like a hundred and fifty yards rushing. Like Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Nathan Carroll - BNN: typically if a if a guy runs like that against Oregon State, you know, that's that he's a threat to do it going forwards too. Lucas Ingham: For sure. And I think that was one of the most surprising things because you think of what the ceiling of Caden Pinnock is as an athlete, and you're like, well, this is the reason he's starting, is because he's mobile. And then Eshelman comes in and he and he's, you know, rushing all over the yards. I will say to BG's credit, he did have a 50 yard touchdown last week, but you're totally right. They're totally missing that deep threat. Tony Freeman goes down twelve plays into the year with an ACL tear. And I think that really just set him off on the wrong foot because their most experienced receiver, their biggest deep threat. And I don't know if the offense ever really fully recovered from the way they they had him schemed into all their big plays. And so certainly as WCU goes into the offseason, that's something they need to work on. And if someone's gonna be open down the field, it's because of the it's because of the scheme. It's not because of someone just being a barn burner getting down the field. But on the other side of the ball, when you look at how Riley and Gaines have just, you know, torched defenses here. I think Boise State's averaging 200 yards on the ground per game. When what are opposing defenses trying to do to to try to bottle that up? Is it kind of just one of those things where it's like you just kinda have to w what can defenses surrender? Is it just we'll let Maddox Madsen beat us? Used to be the thing. Like w what are what are defenses looking at when they're trying to stop Boise State on offense? Nathan Carroll - BNN: Yeah, great question. and and I think it's been really hard. And I don't think we've seen a defense do a great job of it so far this year, just because I mean this this offense is rolling. They're playing at a really high level and I mean the best the best we've seen was Oregon's defense and what they did against Boise State. And really Oregon didn't have a ton of success defensively in that game until the back half of the game when Boise State kinda had to rely on some more traditional drop back stuff and Oregon was able to let their, you know, pass rushers pin their ears and and and get going, right? So we really haven't seen anybody set a super effective mold for how to slow down this offense. It's it they're playing at a really high level. And it starts with the offensive line. This is one of the best offensive line Boise State has had in some time. I mean, they were able to move Oregon for good chunks of that game, didn't create explosive runs in that game, but pretty consistently we're picking up, you know, two, three, four-yard chunks. and and that's just been the case all year. Like this is one of the most efficient offenses in in terms of success rate in the country. I thought I had maybe I don't. I thought I had the success rate numbers pulled up for them. But one of one of the most you know successful offenses in terms of just being able to consistently pick up four, five, six-yard chunks. and then they're able to complement that with an efficient pass game. And you know, Boise State's got a good group of receivers this year, Rashawn Jones who If it wasn't for that guy in Corvallis, would be the best true freshman receiver in the Pac-12. Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm. Nathan Carroll - BNN: you know, he's balling playing at a really high level. Matt

Wagner, Boise State tight end, is I mean, it I I mentioned it on Twitter about Dylan Riley, but I think it applies for Matt Wagner too. He might not be back in Boise next year, and I'm not talking transfer portal. Like he's a guy I think could have a real shot to get drafted this next spring. it's just it's a really talented, really diverse roster. Early on in the season their big issue was they weren't crazy creating explo explosive pass plays. Started to see some teams run a little bit more cover one to try to balance that. And then Boise started tearing them up with explosive pass plays, right? Particularly saw that against Utah State, where they started to hit some pass plays over the top. So it's a really good offense and I I think it's gonna be tough for most teams in the Mountain West or excuse me, in the Pac twelve to Lucas Ingham: Ha ha. Nathan Carroll - BNN: Force a habit on that one. I think it's gonna Lucas Ingham: Yeah, that's a classic. Nathan Carroll - BNN: be tough for most defenses in the pack twelve to be able to slow it down. But I think if if there's one thing, if there's one way to do it, is you have to be able to tackle. You can't let Dylan Riley and Cyre Gaines break tackles and create explosive runs. And you have to try to get this team into third and long somehow. Now, Maddox Madsen's been really efficient on, you know, third and six, third and seven this year, but you figure over the long run of the season at some point they're gonna stop converting those. So, But yeah, you know, not to come off as too much as a homer, but like this this this Boise State offense from a holistic standpoint is I mean, it's more efficient right now than the twenty twenty-four one that led the team to the C FP. It's it's playing at a really high level. Lucas Ingham: No, I don't think that's a homework at all. I that's what the numbers bear out. That's what the results have beared out. And it it's kinda interesting, you know, we talked before the season about how this defense is gonna carry them to to maybe pot ma maybe a potential CFP birth, Pac-Twelve Championship. And it seems like the offense has really taken a leap. And if that defense is gonna catch up like we talked about, giving up those explosive plays, I mean we'll see. I think that's part of, like you said, the design. Like, you know, you're kind of like you said, taking the Trying to get the negatives and that kind of leaves you exposed to the explosives. So I don't know if that's necessarily something that they're doing wrong. It's just kind of the style Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: that they've chosen to adapt and it it might be the best with the personnel they're facing. But you mentioned one of the receivers and it seems like they're having a better year than they did last year. So I kinda wanna transition to that topic because we Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: talked a little bit about before the season with Matt Miller coming over from Boise State

to be the offensive coordinator here. I know a lot of Boise State fans weren't necessarily thrilled with the performance last season from Whether it be the offense, the the receivers, and you know, he comes over and obviously a lot of things didn't go well. I don't think that's all on him. Obviously, there's limitations with the roster. We mentioned the receivers when your quarterback just loses confidence in his own play. There's only so much you can do as a play caller. and Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: so I don't think it's to all on him, but ultimately he he's in charge of the offensive operation and he, you know, let it go astray. But w w what kind of how did this happen? How how did What have you seen from Matt Miller at his career at Boise State? Like, is this something where Kirby Moore i you know is hiring his friend and and maybe that was a move that he shouldn't have made, or is this kind of just an anomaly we have to talk about with the roster? Nathan Carroll - BNN: Yeah, I I guess we'll start with the Matt Miller wide receiver coach at Boise State because you know when when he comes to Boise State, Khalil Shakir Shakir's in house and obviously develops into an NFL receiver and then you know Matt Miller does a nice a nice job with Eric McAllister, who ended up transferring, went to TCU. can't remember where he's at in the league now, but so there were a couple of hits there. But I mean no doubt about it, that the twenty twenty five Boise State wide receiver room has a case to be the worst since the program jumped up to FPS. I mean, they were top three in the nation in drops, they weren't creating consistent explosive plays. There was a lack of separation all season. Like it was really rough and a lot of fans wanted Matt Miller fired last year. He of course ends up getting a promotion instead, going to Wazoo. Now, you know, Kirby's obviously gonna have a lot better idea of who Matt Miller is as an offensive coach than we are, right? Especially just seeing him as a wide receiver's coach. So we've seen before guys maybe not succeed a ton in a specific role, but actually do better in a promoted role. I think you can make the argument that Spencer Danielson, who's a defensive coordinator, like and he says it all the time, he's not the best schematic X's and O's guy. He's kind of a leader of men. So I think for Wazoo fans, the optimistic approach was, okay, maybe this guy isn't the best like talent developer at wide receiver, but maybe he's a really good offensive mind who can help lead an offense and draw some stuff up. Doesn't seem like that's been the case. no, I'll I'll I'll give a little bit of grace in this sense. I think this was we probably maybe undersold it on the the preview pod that this was kind of a year zero, right? In the sense of Lucas Ingham: Yeah, totally. Nathan Carroll - BNN: you lose a head coach, ton of guys hit the portal, and they actually did a decent job of retaining talent with Jimmy Rogers leaving.

But when you hire a coordinator instead of a, you know, proven head coach, coordinators aren't bringing a ton of talent with them, right? Lucas Ingham: For sure. Nathan Carroll - BNN: Whereas if you look at, you know, like let's just look at one of Boise State's opponents earlier this year in Memphis, like Charles Huff gets that job. He was the head coach at Southern Miss. He brings thirty-five Southern Miss players with him. So maybe Matt Miller and Kirby Moore, you give him an off season, they can get some more of their guys in house, start to develop talent a little bit better. But yeah, it's been rough. in his tenure at Boise State, certainly by the end, fans weren't super stoked with his performance in that wide receiver room and I mean, I think the fact that the wide receiver room went from being one of the worst in the country last year to being a pretty solid group this year and doing well despite a ton of injuries as well, which, you know, unfortunately for the Couggs, looks like the Broncos are getting healthy right in time for the trip to Pullman at wide receiver. you know, I think it's certainly probably emblematic of of Matt Miller's performance here. Lucas Ingham: Yeah, I mean th it's so hard because, you know, they retained where they lost a lot of the people was was on defense, you know, and and Trent Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: Bray and that group has a lot of done a pretty good job of filling in the gaps there and putting together what was, you know, a defense that was having to make up for a lot of deficiencies on offense early in the season and still performing relatively well. Oregon State's kind of the first team that really, you know, really got them. But you look at an offensive line that mainly returned, three, you know, running backs that were pretty highly touted and sought after. And then it goes back to, you know, obviously Tony Freeman goes down. The receiver room is probably where it's lacking. And then the quarterback. So I don't know how involved he was in the quarterback evaluation. Obviously, that seems to be what's really hamstrung them. Because for me, when you return talent, we you know, we return an offensive line and you return a running back group. being a hundred in the hundred and twenties on offense, I think is pretty unacceptable for Washington State. And and I think Whatever the talent limitations are, you should be able to scheme them out of that. And I thought it was pretty telling that Kirby Moore felt the need to take over play calling, you know, this early into his tenure. And some of that is his evaluation and learning as a head coach about what his job was. You know, I was talking to Greg Woods at the Spokesman Review about it. He he was honestly kinda s he thought maybe there was a chance in the preseason or when Kirby Moore got the job that he wasn't even gonna hire an offensive coordinator because he's you he's kind of touted as this big offensive mind and You know, certainly

that's bared out in his career at Missouri and in Fresno State. He's had a lot of success. And I I think we've seen, even when Pinnock was still the quarterback against Utah State, the offense begin to progress. So I guess I'll just be interested to see what Matt Miller's role is, you know, on this team in the future. Because I think if he's if Kirby Moore's the head coach and he's calling plays, I don't know. I i it's just a really interesting situation. So I I think it's unique experience to hear the Boise States fans' perspective about what was happening there and what we saw happen with the receiver room. But by all accounts he seems like a great guy, but I it just doesn't know. I don't know if it's a evaluation thing or or or or what's going on. I wish I could pinpoint why it wasn't working out for him, but clearly it just hasn't to to this point. But as as far as Kirby as Kirby Moore goes, the start of his tenure, you're watching from afar. you know, we talked about it's kind of like a year zero. but but there's been some weird Coaching decisions. I don't know how much you got to see of the Oregon State game last week, you know, pretty conservative play calling, not going forward on Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: fourth downs at midfield. I don't know how much you, you know, got to cover him, see him at Boise State, or what your previous knowledge of him was before. But do you think this is just kind of one of those situations where it's it's a young first-time head coach who's just kind Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: of having to take the lumps of, you know, being a first-time head coach and learning, you know, the experiences firsthand? Nathan Carroll - BNN: Yeah, i I think you'd hit the nail on the head right there, right? I think it's a it's a first time head coach who there's a lot that goes into that, right? Not only just on game days of trying to make the right decisions, but you know, how do you do your team preps? How do you run practices and you know, he's been around enough, he's seen the way a lot of different coaches do it, that you can start to grab some of those ideas and for some guys, you know, they hit the ground running with it, some guys it takes some times and you know, sometimes it you know, guys don't do it at well at all. so we'll see how much of this the big thing is like do you have the humility to grow, right? And like I look at someone like Spencer Danielson who, you know, twenty twenty four, twenty twenty five, like really successful first two years, all things considered for a first time head coach, but He talked a lot about this offseason about he had to have a lot of humility. There was a lot of things he needed to grow in and he needed to change his processes, right? And I think a big part of why Boise State is showing improvement this year over last year is just the humility to make those changes. And we've seen head coaches around the country, but even here at Boise State, guys who are s firm in their way, and even when it's not going well, they just double down on their methods. I think for someone like Kirby Moore, it's like, okay, this offseason will be a big test, because do you do you have the humility to remedy some of your mistakes, right? You know, and it seems like already taking play calling duties from Matt Miller this early in the season, to me that's a sign that he's probably somebody who's willing to, you know, grow from some mistakes. Like, okay, hey, things aren't working with Matt Miller, let's let's try a new play caller. You know, things aren't working with Caden Pinick, let's try a new quarterback. Which I think those should be encouraging signs for Wazoo fans, but Lucas Ingham: For sure. Nathan Carroll - BNN: you know, all things considered, I think it is still just some some unknowns with him. you know, ha have gotten to see him as a coach quite a bit 'cause of his time at Fresno. And then obviously, you know, with Drink at Missouri, like that's a team that's always on Boise State fans' radar given Drink's history here at at Boise State as well. And like clearly his offenses has have had a lot of success in the past, right? So I think it's it should be a little bit encouraging that okay, it's the offense that's not working. Kirby does have a a history of success with with with the offensive side of the ball. And maybe this just is a year zero where the talent wasn't there, quarterback evaluation wasn't there, and they've gotten off season to to fix it. So I'd say long term, like there's still reasons to be optimistic about Kirby, especially if they can hold on to Trent Bray. 'cause I think I Lucas Ingham: For sure. Nathan Carroll - BNN: think that guy's a really good defensive coordinator. Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Nathan Carroll - BNN: and I think he's like I think that's what you'd want to see out of the offense where I don't Like there are some good players on Wazoo's defense, don't get me wrong. But I do think like the coaching is elevating the talent in that room. Lucas Ingham: a hundred percent. Yeah. Nathan Carroll - BNN: I think that's what you'd like to see out of the offense, but you know, hasn't hasn't been the case so far. So yeah, I don't know. I I'm hopeful for the Kooks, you know, especially we talked about it in the preview. Like I grew up in Washington, grew up go a Wazoo fan. Like, you know, that's a program that prides itself on its offenses and having quarterbacks Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm. Nathan Carroll - BNN: who can sling the ball, like That's a program that would rather win games forty-five-thirty-five than fourteen to ten. And so you certainly Lucas Ingham: For sure. Nathan Carroll - BNN: hope Kirby can get things figured out sooner than later. But good news is if there's a defense to sling it against, like you're getting it this this week, because Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Nathan Carroll - BNN: Boise State'll give you chances. They'll give you they'll Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Nathan Carroll -

BNN: give you open receivers and and we'll see if they can hit Lucas Ingham: It'll it'll be so fascinating the rest of the season to see how Owen Eshelman plays out and how much of it I mean, you might just have to look back and attribute it to the quarterback play and just say, like you said, we got this wrong. We had to move on, you know, we we allocated the NIL in the wrong way. And, you know, Owen Eshelman is our guy moving forward. And that necessarily doesn't translate to a win this weekend, but as the year goes on and they play the likes of Texas State and Colorado State, if you see the offense turn a corner in a meaningful way, I think there's a lot of reason to be optimistic about hey, like. We got this one wrong, and this isn't about a systematic issue or we're doing a bunch of things wrong. It's just we made this one mistake and it and it really hamstrung us. So this weekend will be an interesting measuring stick to just see where the rest of the the rest of the roster is at. Talent-wise, can WSU's defense hang. I think you you hit the nail on the head about Trent Bray. I he's been awesome. And I think he I mean, we saw it at Oregon State, and he's one of those guys that's just wasn't meant to be a head coach, but he's he's a damn good defensive coordinator. And they were playing their their their ass off it in horrible circumstances. I mean they just couldn't be put in worse circumstances and they they came up big time and time again. And so that's why I think we held on to optimism for so long as this season was going on. And not to say, I mean the season's not over, but for whatever Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: expectation of making a bowl game is, it's like after the three power four games early on, you you held some optimism that they were gonna wreak some havoc in in Pac-12 play. And against Fresno and Utah State, they did more than enough to win the game. You just needed a below average offense. So We'll see if they can get that the rest of the season. It it's gonna be a blast up in Pullman this weekend. before we get out of here, I wanted to talk to you about the twenty fourteen playoff 'cause it's obviously been the hot topic around college football. There there's you know, I think there's pros and cons to it, but w I guess we can just start with with your take on it and and and then I'll offer a rebuttal. Nathan Carroll - BNN: Yeah, I mean, i I guess first and foremost, I I think the the college football that we grew up with changed dramatically when the they went to the twelve team playoff, right? Even with the four team playoff it changed. You started to see teams with one loss more often compete for the the the national championship. But you I guess my my take, for those who haven't seen, you know what what I put on Twitter, because I assume every listener you have doesn't follow me, nor Lucas Ingham: Hehehe. Nathan Carroll - BNN: should they, but I I'm generally pro twenty-four. And my reason for that is in

a perfect world I would go back to four or even two, right? I think Lucas Ingham: Yes, yeah. Nathan Carroll - BNN: I think the world where teams get punished for a loss, like I think Alabama losing on the road at Tennessee and having two losses, I think that should eliminate them from national title contention. That would be my perfect world. But once they went to twelve, they were never putting the toothpaste back in the tube. And my take was just always I think twelve is the absolute wrong number. Because when we're deciding a playoff system, there's two things that you get to balance. There's the urgency of the regular season versus the access of the playoff. Back in the BCS era, there was no national championship access for group of six schools, right? Like Boise State in 29 2009, like statistically one of the top five best teams in the country by every conceivable metric. They were never gonna get a spot in the title game because they played in the whack. Just how it was. But There was maximum urgency in the regular season. Like you could not take a single loss and still compete for the national title, which made every weekend like edge of your seat stuff, because you you just can't take a loss. Like when you go to the twelve team playoff, you reduce that urgency significantly. Where now two lost teams get in regularly. And this season, I know we've we've only seen one three loss team get in with Alabama, who was ten and two and then lost the SEC championship. I'm telling you right now, with The SEC go into a nine game conference schedule, we will see at least Lucas Ingham: yeah. Nathan Carroll - BNN: one nine and three team in the playoff this year. So my take was like when you go to twelve, urgency has been thrown out the door already, but we haven't gotten access because now you're letting in one group of six team more often than not, and you're still leaving out like really good teams who could compete for the title. Like Notre Dame last season, I think on paper, good enough to compete for a title, they could do what Miami Lucas Ingham: Totally. Nathan Carroll - BNN: didn't go on a run. So I my my thing was like, is twenty-four the best number in the world? No. I'd rather go small. But at least if you go to twenty-four, like I the difference to me between a nine and three team and an eight and four team making the playoff is whatever. Who cares? Right? Like Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Nathan Carroll - BNN: one extra loss is not that big of a deal to me. But now you give real access to there's n no seven and five team is ever competing for a national title. So you're getting in every single team who really is good enough to compete for a title. Plus You're gonna start to see multiple group of six teams every year, which I think is a great thing. Like I think what we saw last year with JMU and Tulane, like we should see multiple G six conference championships in the playoff. Are they gonna win every single season? Probably not. But the year that it happens, it's going to be, you know, the year that you get your UMBC Virginia, like, my goodness, how did James Madison just be Alabama in Tuscaloosa? Like, it's gonna be one of the best moments in the sport. So That's my my rant, my take on the twenty fourteen playoff. I know you're not a fan, Lucas, so give me your rebuttal. Lucas Ingham: Yeah, I I mean I think I think so so I'm not like as like I think the reason that people have such a harsh reaction to it is like you mentioned like the college football we grew up with just doesn't like it when it went to twelve and even four like it just doesn't exist anymore. It's just not the same. Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: And so when you if if you can like take a step back and admit that that's the case, there's an argument to be had that twenty-four is right because you look at a school like WSU. Your odds of making the playoff are a lot, lot higher in a 2014 playoff. You look at a school like Boise, the odds of hosting a playoff game on campus pretty high, you know, in a in a 2014 playoff. And so I get the benefit of that from a group of six perspective. The one thing that I would be concerned about, well, there's a couple things, is one is we haven't seen the way the TV executives are running this to be in favor of the group of six pretty much ever. And so it it's a nice idea that we're gonna get all these group of six. you know, conference champions in, but is that so it's really gonna happen? Or are we gonna get 10 SEC teams and 10 Big Ten teams and still the same amount of access for the group of six? So that that would be one of the primary concerns I have. And then the other thing that I would be worried about is just with the 12 team, it feels like there's some still some scarcity to make the playoff. I mean it takes a pretty Special Boise State season. It takes undefeated JMU, it takes well, I guess they lost to Louisville, but you get the point. It still takes you to have to go pretty clean through the regular season. You can't have three losses. Like you said, the SEC will probably see it. But like if Notre Dame loses to Miami, they're not gonna get in. Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: so there's still an impetus on these games. Like Notre Dame has to win these games. And so if you go to twenty-four teams And say Notre Dame goes 10 and 2, they lose the BYU, they lose the Miami, and they still get in. Are you now ruining the urgency ruin ruining the urgency of the regular season and the playoff? Because if you're a team like WCU or Boise or Oregon State, whoever it is, and you get in, I haven't done the math on how many rounds it would be, but you're in the low 20s and you get in, that means you have four wins to get to the national title Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: game. And so does that ru is that really Does that devalue the pla the product of the college football playoff where it's not as much as like, my gosh, we're so close to the national

title. If we just win these one or two games, we're in it. It's like that seems reasonable. And then if you're looking at, my gosh, we have to win four games and we're gonna have to go to Alabama and play Miami on a neutral site, like it doesn't really feel feasible, even if it wasn't gonna happen anyway. At least there's some level of belief that something crazy TCU could happen and we could make it. I just think you might you're risking devaluing both. the regular season and the playoff, and then you're kind of stuck with just a watered down NFL would be be my concern. And I just I I've never trusted any of the and obviously scorned by everything that happened with the Pac-12, but just Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: I I just do not trust the TV executives to have the best interest of of the little guy when we it actually comes down to picking who's gonna participate in the playoff moving forward. Nathan Carroll - BNN: Yeah, those are s definitely fair concerns. I think with the T V execs and like the committee in general, I give them a little bit more credit than most G six fans because while they have made some massive mistakes in the past, they did put Cincinnati in the playoff twenty twenty one. And they they did give JMU the bid over eight and five Duke last season, right? Like to me that was real proof of concept of okay, they're not gonna go completely Lucas Ingham: That's fair. Nathan Carroll - BNN: out of their way to screw over the little guy. Even Go back to twenty twenty four, there was a big debate between SMU and Alabama getting a playoff spot that year. And they gave SMU the nod. Like so I I give them a little bit more credit than than some, you know, group of six fans do. And I'm not saying you're wrong for not giving them credit. I'm hey, when it comes to TV execs when it comes to the TV execs, be pessimistic, right? Like like they show Lucas Ingham: No that's a fair point. Yeah. Nathan Carroll - BNN: more often than not that they make the wrong decisions. in in ultimate in I I hear the argument with, you know, devaluing the regular season of going to twenty four. I I always just come back to this. College football that we grew up with died when Ohio State lost it as a twenty point favorite to Michigan on the last game of the season to drop to ten and two and then just cruise to a national title anyway. Like that loss should have been disqualifying. You're a massive favorite against your biggest rival and then you still get to host a playoff game and go win a national championship anyway. At home. Yeah. Lucas Ingham: Home too. At home. Yeah. Nathan Carroll - BNN: Like th when that loss happened, that to me was when Okay, the sports changed. And I see in a lot of, you know, takes from there's been a lot of, you know, national outlet people who are like, man, this Tennessee win was great, but the twenty four team playoff it means nothing. I'm like, well, Lucas Ingham: Yeah, I mean Nathan Carroll - BNN: what does it mean in the twelve team playoff? Alabama still is a you know, they're still favored to make the playoff by the sports books. Like Georgia losing to Auburn, they're still you know, probably gonna be a playoff team and probably still get a buy. Like, I just think a a lot of Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Yeah. Nathan Carroll - BNN: I think a lot of people don't understand already how much the regular season has gotten devalued. And look, man, I think the twenty four team playoff is gonna be a ton of fun, right? Like, you know, I talked about it. If you had that in twenty twenty four, you would get Colorado coming to Boise on the blue for a playoff game. Like, that's awesome. That's musty T V, right? Like, Lucas Ingham: Yeah, that would have been awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Nathan Carroll - BNN: you know, even I think it was last year, it's like, you know, Utah's hosting a playoff game against Who was it, Virginia maybe? Like even just like the little games like that. Like, are those national Lucas Ingham: Fun matchups for sure. Nathan Carroll - BNN: title contending teams? Probably not, but now instead of getting that at a bowl game where you've got 20,000 fans there, you get an on-campus game that everyone's stoked about and at least has some real value. Like, look, man, there's not many eight-nine seeds who play for a national championship in the NCAA tournament, but I still watch those Lucas Ingham: For sure. Nathan Carroll - BNN: games and you know enjoy it. So that that's Lucas Ingham: Super sure. Nathan Carroll - BNN: kind of my take on it. You know, I I probably played up a little too much on Twitter about like loving the twenty fourteen playoff, 'cause Lucas Ingham: Ha ha ha. Nathan Carroll - BNN: in reality, like, I'd love to go back to t to four or the BCS or abolish the system Lucas Ingham: Yeah. No, same. Nathan Carroll - BNN: and do something drastic, but I just think twelve is pretty much the worst possible number we could be at. And pretty much any change off of twelve would have been better, 'cause I just i I think you don't get great urgency and I think you also don't get a great playoff. Like like I don't think the playoff has been a great product the past couple of years, really. It's a lot of stinkers because college football, there's usually four or five elite teams. And with the current playoff setup, like the elite teams who should have get gotten left out, like Miami or Ohio State, they still get a chance to get in and they still get to blow out the teams who are, you know, the seventh best team in the country. so yeah, that's that's my take on it. I'm looking forward to it. And then obviously as a G six fan, like I think it should benefit the Pac twelve quite a bit. Lucas Ingham: Totally. No, and and I hope, you know, I hope that's the way it plays out because like you said, like I would be down for Utah and Virginia and that's probably in that setting, in a playoff setting, like it's gonna do better than a bowl game, which just seems like I

don't think it's just I think a lot of it is fan denial and I think it's part of my like it's just it's hard to accept that this is what college football is gonna become. I mean, I used to love bowl mania and all that stuff and it I think There is no saving the bowl system at this point. I think we just have to accept that the bowl system is is over. And if this replaces the bowls in a in a meaningful way and you get meaningful games, 'cause like you said, the pl the playoff product, in my opinion, has been pretty awful. Even going back to the four the four team playoff, like there's only Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: a handful of games I can remember really, like TCU Michigan, and then Ole Miss in Miami. Or no, Olmus in my gosh, who did they beat to move on last year? Georgia, I think maybe. Nathan Carroll - BNN: Yep, Ole Miss Georgia was a good one. Yeah. Lucas Ingham: Those are those are two of the ones that come to mind. But in the four team, there a lot of blowouts in the semifinals. Cause when it comes down to it, there's two, maybe three teams, I think, that are really national title. And and I don't know, maybe that's changing with the NIL. You look at the top ten, you see teams like BYU up there, which is I think maybe a little bit of an overreaction, but still they're there. Indiana, Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: Utah in the top ten. It it's UCLA having a great year. It's more unique than we've seen in recent years. So There might be something too that the NIL is creating more parity at the top of the sport than maybe Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: we're used to. And so maybe as we get through this playoff system, I think and w and this is just more of a big picture topic, but it it will be interesting to see with the legislature coming through if that works out that college football fans can be happy with, all right, we've gotten the the portal restrictions maybe a little more under control, the tampering that's going Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: on, some cap on these NIL things. Cause to me that's really the problem with everything that's going on is it's just there's no there's no regulation. It's unregulated free agency at the end of every single season, and that's just not sustainable for any program. You you know, even schools like Alabama, you can't get too attached to players because they might move on to Ohio State or or Michigan or something like that. So I think Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: that's really what's causing, you know, fans to be scorned about the the state of the sport. And if we can get that under control, I think there's maybe be some more welcoming of Hey, we got a lot more access to this 2014 playoff and schools like, you know, Oregon State, they wouldn't have to worry about losing to Boise State later on in the year and and they could still go on and and play in a meaningful playoff game. So I I think the reason that your tweets get so many interactions is because people just are are sad about what it's come to with the sport. You know, it's changed so quick in the last decade. It's the eight-year anniversary of College Game Day coming to Pullman was yesterday, and it's just It feels like a completely different sport from then. Almost Nathan Carroll - BNN: Yeah. Lucas Ingham: unrecognizable. So that was kind of rambling, but I don't know if you have anything you want to add to add to that. Nathan Carroll - BNN: Yeah, I mean it's yeah, I I think you're spot on. Like I I think a lot of the backlash against it is just I I think any change they had made there would have been backlash against it, right? Fans are sick of the lawsuits, they're sick of the eligibil eligibility stuff, they're sick of, you know, hey, we've got this awesome player and now he's just gone after one year especially, you know, two, three years ago when N N I L was first a thing and it like, Wait, so this guy's like sitting out our bowl game now? Like he's Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Nathan Carroll - BNN: entering the portal, like I mean Eric McAllister entered the portal after eight games at Boise State. Like he just left midseason, right? Like fans Lucas Ingham: Right. Nathan Carroll - BNN: fans were rightfully upset about a lot of that. You know, th this isn't me. I don't have this kind of money. But donors are sick of funding NIL for for guys, which, you know, part of this, you know, PCSA is upping the rev share that schools get access to. So instead of asking a donor to foot the bill for Jesse Legree it said, Hey, give us, you know, instead of giving it to Jesse Legree, give it to the program and we can distribute the NIL, which is gonna be a lot easier for a lot of fans to digest. Just having met people who paid for players who ended up sucking like they hate it. Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Look no farther than Washington State. I mean, th some some donors stepped up to pay Nathan Carroll - BNN: Yeah. Lucas Ingham: three hundred grand for a quarterback and it and they've got benched after six games. I'm sure they're not super thrilled with that situation right now. Nathan Carroll - BNN: Right. So it I do think in general the sport is a little bit in flux and I think we're starting to see the NCAA fight back a little bit in like, look, you know, y it's w isn't it the Ronald Reagan quotes like the worst thing you can hear is like I'm from the government and I'm here to help. Like Lucas Ingham: Yes, yeah. Nathan Carroll - BNN: that's the joke, but I do think if you know, Congress can step in like and help out with some of these things, Lucas Ingham: Needs to happen, yeah. Nathan Carroll - BNN: I I think it'll make the sport better long term. I do think the twenty fourteen playoff was just years of being upset about the small changes that had been made and this is the one where you can tee off on it when you Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm. Nathan Carroll - BNN: know, like I think in a vacuum it's like the peop the things that people

don't like about the twenty fourteen playoff, like you said, it's really stuffed that they probably don't like how the 12 team playoff has turned out. They don't like the NIL. They don't like the transfer portal. Get some of those things under control. And then, you know, I think when we do get a 2014 playoff and we get that first first round banger matchup. Like people are gonna see the vision a little bit more and like, you know, people talk a lot about the blowouts over the G six teams. You know, to frame it in the context of March Madness, like there's a lot of one through sixteen blowouts. And the reason people don't care in March Madness is because while that's going on, you've got an awesome five twelve C going on, right? I think people will care a lot less about the big blowouts. G six or not, which, you know, like you said, I think it's the eight biggest blowouts in C F B history are all P four teams that lost. it's not a G six exclusive issue, but I think people will care a lot less, like, there's a blowout going on right now. But over on, you know, ESPN two, there's an awesome matchup between Tennessee Lucas Ingham: For sure. Nathan Carroll - BNN: and, you know, Clemson or whoever it is. So, yeah, and I mean it's I get it. I mourn for the sport too. If we could go back to balanced conferences and a four team playoff, Lucas Ingham: Ugh. Nathan Carroll - BNN: like, you know, I'm all about it. Like that's the sport I grew up with, but I think my my praise ultimately for the twenty fourteen playoff, and I'll leave it at this, is just understanding that we're not going back there and Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Nathan Carroll - BNN: how can we just be better realistically from where we are now. So Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm. Nathan Carroll - BNN: but big game this weekend with playoff implications in the twelve team for certain with Boise State taking on Wazoo. So Lucas Ingham: Yeah. For sure. For sure. That's that's a good way to end it. No, I think you make a compelling argument and I I you've you know, I think I was more apt to be convinced. I I just you know, part of it's just so hard. It's it's hard for a lot of fans to accept. And you saw big ESPN talking heads come out and talk against it, which is kind of shocking given that it was Nathan Carroll - BNN: Mm-hmm. Lucas Ingham: negotiated by their network. I I think the the first article I saw was ESPN negotiates twenty fourteen playoff with the CFP or whatever it s sources say and it's like you're the source. I mean I was reading it on ESPN. I was like, what are you guys talking about? Just such a biz Yeah, Nathan Carroll - BNN: You guys have the deal, yeah. Lucas Ingham: no kidding. Such a such a bizarre time. But it should be a fun this week fun weekend this week. And honestly, like I'm at the point where I want Boise State to make the playoff for the Pac-12 sake. So I wouldn't take a little bit of remorse in a win, but obviously always want always want the Couggs to to do their best. Well Nathan, this has been awesome. Where where can people find your stuff? Nathan Carroll - BNN: Yeah, all my stuff is on Bronco Nation News dot com or Boise State's two four seven affiliate or twenty four seven affiliate I should say. and then you can follow me on Twitter at Nathan underscore Boise as well. Lucas Ingham: Yeah, make sure to follow him on Twitter. He's a fun follow. He talks boise, he talks MBA, he talks all sorts of different stuff. So he's definitely a fun follow. Nathan, appreciate the time and and we'll talk soon. Nathan Carroll - BNN: Thanks, Lucas. Appreciate it.