النص الكامل لحلقة Relationship Centered Leadership with Lt. Col. Scott Mann

00:03:24,771 --> 00:03:26,940 Well, let's back up a moment and let's talk about your 87 00:03:26,940 --> 00:03:28,374 journey to becoming. 88 00:03:28,374 --> 00:03:30,510 Yeah a Green Beret. Yeah. 89 00:03:30,510 --> 00:03:34,847 You know it's one of those things where for me it was 90 00:03:36,115 --> 00:03:37,417 being, being a Green Beret 91 00:03:37,417 --> 00:03:39,385 was something I'd wanted to do since I was 14. 92 00:03:39,385 --> 00:03:41,354 I met a Green Beret 93 00:03:41,354 --> 00:03:45,024 when I was a kid in a little town called Mount on Arkansas. 94 00:03:45,058 --> 00:03:48,161 It was a town so small, we didn't even have a stoplight. 95 00:03:48,161 --> 00:03:49,629 We still don't. 96 00:03:49,629 --> 00:03:51,197 You probably can relate to that. 97 00:03:51,197 --> 00:03:56,402 Yes, I can, but anyway, I met this this guy named Mark. 98 00:03:56,402 --> 00:03:58,905 He was at home on leave from Special Forces 99 00:03:58,905 --> 00:04:01,140 and just immediately was enamored with him, 100 00:04:01,140 --> 00:04:02,308 not because of 101 00:04:02,308 --> 00:04:05,778 of of anything other than just how he carried himself. 102 00:04:05,778 --> 00:04:07,380 There was something so different about him 103 00:04:07,380 --> 00:04:09,015 as he walked into that soda shop. 104 00:04:09,015 --> 00:04:10,984 He different from all of us. 105 00:04:10,984 --> 00:04:12,352 There was a he didn't strut. 106 00:04:12,352 --> 00:04:13,886 It was more of a swagger. 107 00:04:13,886 --> 00:04:15,355 But I think probably more than anything. 108 00:04:15,355 --> 00:04:18,524 Catherine, he sat down with me and I was a runt of a kid. 109 00:04:18,558 --> 00:04:22,295 I mean, just scrawny, probably 105 pounds, soaking wet 110 00:04:22,295 --> 00:04:22,695 and, 111 00:04:23,863 --> 00:04:25,465 and really bullied a lot. 112 00:04:25,465 --> 00:04:28,434 Just, I had a tough time assimilating. 113 00:04:28,434 --> 00:04:29,869 We moved around a lot as a kid. 114 00:04:29,869 --> 00:04:32,705 And, this guy, you know, I went up to him, and I just. 115 00:04:32,705 --> 00:04:34,407 There was something about him, and I just 116 00:04:34,407 --> 00:04:35,742 started talking to him, and. 117 00:04:35,742 --> 00:04:39,112 And I think he really saw something in me. 118 00:04:39,112 --> 00:04:42,115 I don't know why, but he sat down with this 14 year old kid 119 00:04:42,482 --> 00:04:45,218 and really talk to me, like, for the first time, 120 00:04:45,218 --> 00:04:46,986 I felt like an adult other than my parents 121 00:04:46,986 --> 00:04:49,989 was actually talking to me and he was talking to me. 122 00:04:49,989 --> 00:04:52,825 It's hard to explain, but he was talking to me like 123 00:04:52,825 --> 00:04:54,060 I was a recruit. 124 00:04:54,060 --> 00:04:55,895 Like he was talking to me like, you know, 125 00:04:55,895 --> 00:04:57,597 this is what you're going to be doing. 126 00:04:57,597 --> 00:04:59,666 And and I was just I couldn't believe it. 127 00:04:59,666 --> 00:05:03,236 Like, you know, he clearly saw something in me. 128 00:05:03,736 --> 00:05:04,570 Or a connection. 129 00:05:04,570 --> 00:05:07,507 Or some kind of connection or a seriousness. Right. 130 00:05:07,507 --> 00:05:09,008 That, 131 00:05:09,008 --> 00:05:10,476 made him take the time to sit down, 132 00:05:10,476 --> 00:05:10,977 explain to me 133 00:05:10,977 --> 00:05:13,046 that Green Berets are different than Seals. 134 00:05:13,046 --> 00:05:15,281 Different than Rangers, different than Delta. 135 00:05:15,281 --> 00:05:15,948 You know that 136 00:05:15,948 --> 00:05:16,849 we work by, with 137 00:05:16,849 --> 00:05:18,718 and through indigenous people, and that we build 138 00:05:18,718 --> 00:05:22,989 relationships and help those those those, communities and 139 00:05:24,290 --> 00:05:26,359 third world countries stand up on their own 140 00:05:26,359 --> 00:05:27,393 against oppression. 141 00:05:27,393 --> 00:05:29,762 And that just to me was was everything. 142 00:05:29,762 --> 00:05:31,130 I fell in love with that idea. 143 00:05:31,130 --> 00:05:34,300 And, at 14, started obsessing, training, planning 144 00:05:34,334 --> 00:05:35,335 to become a Green Beret. 145 00:05:35,335 --> 00:05:36,536 And, 146 00:05:36,536 --> 00:05:38,671 it was probably ten years later that it finally happened 147 00:05:38,671 --> 00:05:40,773 after failing about every school in the army twice. 148 00:05:40,773 --> 00:05:42,942 But eventually did it. 149 00:05:42,942 --> 00:05:45,278 Well, that perseverance apparently paid off. 150 00:05:45,278 --> 00:05:48,648 You know, I learned more from failing Ranger school twice 151 00:05:48,948 --> 00:05:52,352 failing Special Forces, twice failing Air assault school. 152 00:05:52,985 --> 00:05:55,955 I think than I did going through the schools. 153 00:05:57,357 --> 00:05:59,559 And what, what I learned was that, you know, 154 00:05:59,559 --> 00:06:02,662 life is just going to absolutely just kick 155 00:06:02,662 --> 00:06:04,997 you square in the pants in a lot of times. 156 00:06:04,997 --> 00:06:05,965 Yeah. 157 00:06:05,965 --> 00:06:07,433 And it really, really hurts. 158 00:06:07,433 --> 00:06:08,901 And you really, really feel lost 159 00:06:08,901 --> 00:06:10,737 and you really, really feel like you, 160 00:06:10,737 --> 00:06:11,804 you're not good enough 161 00:06:11,804 --> 00:06:13,406 for what you're an imposter or whatever, 162 00:06:13,406 --> 00:06:17,110 but somehow you've got to pick yourself up and continue on. 163 00:06:17,643 --> 00:06:19,312 And that was what I felt like, 164 00:06:21,180 --> 00:06:23,449 getting recycled in these schools was like, for me, 165 00:06:23,449 --> 00:06:26,452 I had to work past the humiliation and the shame 166 00:06:26,886 --> 00:06:29,756 and get back in the game and and when I graduated, 167 00:06:29,756 --> 00:06:30,523 I look back on it. 168

00:06:30,523 --> 00:06:33,960 And when I went to combat, that feeling was very similar. 169 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:38,598 When you lose a soldier or when you, make a mistake, 170 00:06:38,631 --> 00:06:39,232 you know, 171 00:06:39,232 --> 00:06:40,833 I'm not equating to losing a soldier 172 00:06:40,833 --> 00:06:43,236 to like, failing a school, but I'm saying the 173 00:06:43,236 --> 00:06:45,605 the depth of the shame and just the, you know, 174 00:06:45,605 --> 00:06:47,840 you really doubt yourself, right or right. 175 00:06:47,840 --> 00:06:50,843 And at least I had, been through that before. 176 00:06:51,077 --> 00:06:52,645 So I had some tools. 177 00:06:52,645 --> 00:06:55,948 And I think that, just abject failure like that, 178 00:06:55,948 --> 00:06:56,816 as long as you get back 179 00:06:56,816 --> 00:07:00,052 up, is probably the best, best asset we have in service. 180 00:07:01,788 --> 00:07:02,054 Yeah. 181 00:07:02,054 --> 00:07:04,524 People do talk a lot of you know here 182 00:07:04,524 --> 00:07:05,658 not so much these days 183 00:07:05,658 --> 00:07:08,694 but like 4 or 5 years ago talking about failure. 184 00:07:09,028 --> 00:07:10,163 Learning from failure 185 00:07:10,163 --> 00:07:12,098 was like a big thing that a lot of people, 186 00:07:12,098 --> 00:07:13,266 at least in the business community. 187 00:07:13,266 --> 00:07:15,268 Yeah, yeah, I think it comes and goes as a, 188 00:07:15,268 --> 00:07:16,803 you know, kind of jargon and a fad. 189 00:07:16,803 --> 00:07:19,906 But I know for me it just had a timeless quality to it. 190 00:07:19,906 --> 00:07:21,707 You know, I look back at my life, 191 00:07:21,707 --> 00:07:24,710 my life is punctuated with these just 192 00:07:25,178 --> 00:07:27,947 abject failures of whether they’re businesses 193 00:07:27,947 --> 00:07:29,882 or trying to write a play or, 194 00:07:29,882 --> 00:07:31,951 you know, but they were they were just 195 00:07:31,951 --> 00:07:34,153 they were just milestone markers in the journey. 196 00:07:34,153 --> 00:07:37,089 As long as you stay with it and you don't quit 197 00:07:37,089 --> 00:07:39,692 and you stay persistent, the failure is just a 198 00:07:39,692 --> 00:07:41,727 it's literally just a time stamp. 199 00:07:41,727 --> 00:07:43,463 On the journey. 200 00:07:43,463 --> 00:07:44,263 I think there's some 201 00:07:44,263 --> 00:07:45,731 and definitely some environments 202 00:07:45,731 --> 00:07:47,767 in which you can exercise that. 203 00:07:47,767 --> 00:07:49,502 So what would you say. 204 00:07:49,502 --> 00:07:53,706 You know we're talking to a cadet audience primarily. 205 00:07:55,341 --> 00:07:58,511 What in you I would ask 206 00:07:59,812 --> 00:08:00,680 had to happen. 207 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:02,682 Did you, as a result of the failure. 208 00:08:02,682 --> 00:08:06,486 Did you say no, I've got this competitive mindset 209 00:08:06,486 --> 00:08:08,454 and now I've got a strategy. 210 00:08:08,454 --> 00:08:11,090 Did you learn, you know, what was it in you 211 00:08:11,090 --> 00:08:13,025 that said, no, I can go back and beat this. 212 00:08:13,025 --> 00:08:15,495 If it was my father, if I'm being honest. 213 00:08:15,495 --> 00:08:16,496 Like that was 214 00:08:16,496 --> 00:08:19,699 especially early in my life, including when I was a cadet. 215 00:08:20,466 --> 00:08:22,668 You know, my first failure as a cadet was 216 00:08:22,668 --> 00:08:23,703 when I went to Air Assault school. 217 00:08:23,703 --> 00:08:25,238 I failed, and, you know, 218 00:08:25,238 --> 00:08:27,340 that was a big thing because to fail 219 00:08:27,340 --> 00:08:28,508 as a cadet in an assault school, 220 00:08:28,508 --> 00:08:29,675 that meant you were going home. 221 00:08:29,675 --> 00:08:32,111 You weren't going to stay and recycle. 222 00:08:32,111 --> 00:08:36,682 So I had to go back home in the summer and then go 223 00:08:36,682 --> 00:08:40,086 back to ROTC the next year with my college university, 224 00:08:40,086 --> 00:08:43,322 knowing that I failed, Air Assault School. 225 00:08:43,990 --> 00:08:46,192 And, you know, that's embarrassing. Yeah. 226 00:08:46,192 --> 00:08:46,626 You know what I mean? 227 00:08:46,626 --> 00:08:48,561 And I was a pretty up and moving cadet, 228 00:08:48,561 --> 00:08:50,229 I think I was a sophomore. Junior. 229 00:08:51,264 --> 00:08:53,399 And then the next summer, 230 00:08:53,399 --> 00:08:54,400 I mean, I was obsessed with. 231 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:55,334 I was like, no, I want 232 00:08:55,334 --> 00:08:56,702 I want to make it through that school. 233 00:08:56,702 --> 00:08:57,670 And I found 234 00:08:57,670 --> 00:08:58,938 that there was another course 235 00:08:58,938 --> 00:09:01,240 at Fort Rucker when they had it there. 236 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:02,875 And I was staying at home with my parents. 237 00:09:02,875 --> 00:09:06,679 It was my junior year this time, and the school told 238 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:09,015 me, they said, you can go, but we're not going to pay. 239 00:09:09,015 --> 00:09:09,782 You're going to have to go. 240 00:09:09,782 --> 00:09:11,017 You're gonna have to pay for yourself. 241 00:09:11,017 --> 00:09:13,452 You got to pay for your gas to drive down there. 242 00:09:13,452 --> 00:09:14,420 You have to pay for everything. 243 00:09:14,420 --> 00:09:17,423 Right? And, 244 00:09:17,557 --> 00:09:19,292 I looked at my dad and he's like, 245 00:09:19,292 --> 00:09:20,393 how bad do you want it? 246 00:09:20,393 --> 00:09:20,726 Yeah. 247 00:09:20,726 --> 00:09:22,662 You know, and I said, well, I really want it bad. 248 00:09:22,662 --> 00:09:24,363 And he said, then, then 249 00:09:24,363 --> 00:09:27,266 if you go and you make it, then this first failure 250 00:09:27,266 --> 00:09:28,334 will not even 251 00:09:28,334 --> 00:09:29,835 what will not even be in your memory 252 00:09:29,835 --> 00:09:31,103

other than it taught you something. 253 00:09:32,071 --> 00:09:33,539 That was the kind of guy he was. 254 00:09:33,539 --> 00:09:36,242 And he instilled that in me at a very early age. 255 00:09:36,242 --> 00:09:38,210 And so to me, it just wasn't even an option. 256 00:09:38,210 --> 00:09:39,912 It was just okay, I failed. 257 00:09:39,912 --> 00:09:41,614 So now I get a chance to go do it again. 258 00:09:41,614 --> 00:09:42,715 Let's go do it again. 259 00:09:42,715 --> 00:09:44,150 And that just became my way of kind of 260 00:09:44,150 --> 00:09:47,153 being in the world was failure is just a time stamp. 261 00:09:47,653 --> 00:09:49,555 Was there a first experience? 262 00:09:49,555 --> 00:09:50,189 You know, 263 00:09:50,189 --> 00:09:52,458 sounds like you and your dad had that rapport 264 00:09:52,458 --> 00:09:54,594 and connection already by then. 265 00:09:54,594 --> 00:09:55,828 So you're that's college. 266 00:09:55,828 --> 00:09:58,898 So something had to have happened earlier. 267 00:09:59,065 --> 00:09:59,265 Yeah. 268 00:09:59,265 --> 00:10:00,967 I think being a runt, being a runt 269 00:10:00,967 --> 00:10:03,803 and being really scrawny and just, just, you know, 270 00:10:03,803 --> 00:10:05,304 I struggled physically. 271 00:10:05,304 --> 00:10:06,973 I just struggled physically with sports. 272 00:10:06,973 --> 00:10:07,940 I mean, I played sports 273 00:10:07,940 --> 00:10:10,576 and I loved sports, but I was so small, 274 00:10:10,576 --> 00:10:13,646 you know, and, and bullied a good bit. 275 00:10:13,646 --> 00:10:16,616 And so constantly in moving schools, I was constantly, 276 00:10:17,083 --> 00:10:18,684 fighting my way out of this 277 00:10:18,684 --> 00:10:20,019 and fighting my way out of that. 278 00:10:20,019 --> 00:10:23,789 And, you know, after a while, you know, so those moments 279 00:10:23,789 --> 00:10:25,558 very early in my life 280 00:10:25,558 --> 00:10:27,960 where you kind of on the outside looking in, 281 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:29,562 questioning your self-worth, questioned 282 00:10:29,562 --> 00:10:33,532 like a lot of kids go through, you know, 283 00:10:33,532 --> 00:10:36,335 and my dad was a runt, too, and he had 284 00:10:36,335 --> 00:10:38,971 he had become a successful wildland firefighter. 285 00:10:38,971 --> 00:10:41,741 And, you know, like, that was a hero in my eyes. 286 00:10:41,741 --> 00:10:44,744 And I thought, you know, well, if and so he would 287 00:10:44,744 --> 00:10:46,045 when those moments would happen, 288 00:10:46,045 --> 00:10:47,246 he would just help me 289 00:10:47,246 --> 00:10:50,049 think through him and help me see on the other side of it. 290 00:10:50,049 --> 00:10:52,018 And, like he had tread that ground. 291 00:10:52,018 --> 00:10:54,186 Yes. He'd walk that ground. Yeah. 292 00:10:54,186 --> 00:10:55,721 And, you know, I was blessed to 293 00:10:55,721 --> 00:10:57,857 have a father that because I know a lot of, 294 00:10:57,857 --> 00:11:01,193 young people don't, but I did, and, but, 295 00:11:01,193 --> 00:11:04,196 I think at the end of the day, what I, what he taught me 296 00:11:04,563 --> 00:11:05,164 was then what 297 00:11:05,164 --> 00:11:08,668 I had to walk on my own, which is life is absolutely 298 00:11:08,668 --> 00:11:09,702 going to knock you down like that. 299 00:11:09,702 --> 00:11:11,604 It is not a question of of 300 00:11:11,604 --> 00:11:14,240 if it is a question of win, it's. Not for, you. 301 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:15,741 Know, and it's and we can't a lot of times 302 00:11:15,741 --> 00:11:16,475 we can't control it. 303 00:11:16,475 --> 00:11:18,778 What we can control is whether we get back up or not. 304 00:11:18,778 --> 00:11:20,246 Yeah, absolutely. 305 00:11:20,246 --> 00:11:22,782 So now you're you're doing your second 306 00:11:22,782 --> 00:11:25,584 attempt at Air Assault school and you. 307 00:11:25,584 --> 00:11:27,453 Made it. In green Green Beret. 308 00:11:27,453 --> 00:11:29,488 And you know what was cool, Catherine, was like, 309 00:11:29,488 --> 00:11:31,791 you know, everybody else was there. 310 00:11:31,791 --> 00:11:34,760 And here's what it was subtly different for me. 311 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,763 Everybody that was there was paid to be there. 312 00:11:38,197 --> 00:11:41,767 Everybody that was there, was kind of complaining about it 313 00:11:41,767 --> 00:11:42,301 one way or the other. 314 00:11:42,301 --> 00:11:43,869 Not me, not me. 315 00:11:43,869 --> 00:11:45,337 I paid to be there. Right? 316 00:11:45,337 --> 00:11:49,442 I wrote the check as an 18 year old kid to drive my, 317 00:11:49,842 --> 00:11:50,443 you know, 318 00:11:51,410 --> 00:11:52,511 beat down 319 00:11:52,511 --> 00:11:55,514 Chevrolet Citation with a Chevette engine in it, 320 00:11:55,815 --> 00:12:00,219 you know, 400 miles, to to Fort Rucker to go do this. 321 00:12:00,219 --> 00:12:02,221 And so I was just glad to be there. 322 00:12:02,221 --> 00:12:03,889 And I know that sounds lame 323 00:12:03,889 --> 00:12:05,291 and corny, but that was the truth. 324 00:12:05,291 --> 00:12:06,926 And that became kind of an M.O. 325 00:12:06,926 --> 00:12:07,760 for me 326 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:08,694 because I would, 327 00:12:08,694 --> 00:12:11,397 you know, Ranger School, I did three times. 328 00:12:11,397 --> 00:12:13,766 Special forces, I did three times. 329 00:12:13,766 --> 00:12:15,768 And so 330 00:12:15,768 --> 00:12:18,037 by the time I get to the third time, like I'm still here, 331 00:12:18,037 --> 00:12:19,972 like I'm still here and I'm paying to be here. 332 00:12:19,972 --> 00:12:21,507 Well that's the victory itself. 333 00:12:21,507 --> 00:12:22,975 You're still staying is still willing. 334 00:12:22,975 --> 00:12:23,876 Yeah I'm still in it. 335 00:12:23,876 --> 00:12:26,145 Still willing to put yourself through. Yeah. 336 00:12:26,145 --> 00:12:27,780 And at some

point along that way 337 00:12:27,780 --> 00:12:30,082 I realized, oh, I'm actually going to make this 338 00:12:30,082 --> 00:12:31,851 like it's just taking me longer. 339 00:12:31,851 --> 00:12:33,285 It just taking me longer. 340 00:12:33,285 --> 00:12:35,788 And I'm going to be on and it just became like, 341 00:12:35,788 --> 00:12:37,556 and that kind of became an M.O. 342 00:12:37,556 --> 00:12:39,625 for my life because most of my stuff 343 00:12:39,625 --> 00:12:42,628 after the military has been punctuated with large 344 00:12:42,628 --> 00:12:44,463 periods of failure. But then 345 00:12:45,464 --> 00:12:45,865 all of a sudden, 346 00:12:45,865 --> 00:12:47,767 you look around in the air standing, you're surrounded 347 00:12:47,767 --> 00:12:49,735 by people you respect, and you're in this new thing. 348 00:12:49,735 --> 00:12:52,238 And I think that just became kind of for me, 349 00:12:52,238 --> 00:12:54,073 how I reinvent myself. 350 00:12:54,073 --> 00:12:56,242 And then you're not an overnight success. 351 00:12:56,242 --> 00:12:56,509 You're like. 352 00:12:56,509 --> 00:12:59,879 Oh my God, or you're so lucky, you are so 353 00:12:59,879 --> 00:13:01,380 And you're like, you got to be kidding me. 354 00:13:01,380 --> 00:13:02,982 No, I clawed and scratched my 355 00:13:02,982 --> 00:13:05,985 way! like, yeah, I'm anything but lucky, that's for sure. 356 00:13:06,352 --> 00:13:07,186 Yeah. 357 00:13:07,186 --> 00:13:10,055 So then, talk about the experience 358 00:13:10,055 --> 00:13:13,259 of being a Green Beret and then what brought you to, 359 00:13:13,259 --> 00:13:14,727 you know, your role? Well. 360 00:13:14,727 --> 00:13:17,329 Yeah. Because, you know, 361 00:13:17,329 --> 00:13:19,765 when I go back to the thing at 14, I'm not kidding. 362 00:13:19,765 --> 00:13:22,101 I obsessed and trained and planned and prepared. 363 00:13:22,101 --> 00:13:23,936 It was this idea of 364 00:13:23,936 --> 00:13:25,805 this little group of guys and girls 365 00:13:25,805 --> 00:13:27,373 are halfway around the world, 366 00:13:27,373 --> 00:13:30,309 working with indigenous partners 367 00:13:30,309 --> 00:13:31,343 and getting, 368 00:13:31,343 --> 00:13:34,747 you know, big stuff done with just a handful of teammates, 369 00:13:35,281 --> 00:13:36,048 you know, 370 00:13:36,048 --> 00:13:37,883 with a medic that can do an appendectomy 371 00:13:37,883 --> 00:13:39,585 on the battlefield and a weapon sergeant 372 00:13:39,585 --> 00:13:41,120 that can break down any weapon in the world 373 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,489 blindfolded, and an engineer sergeant that can, 374 00:13:43,489 --> 00:13:44,456 you know, do vertical 375 00:13:44,456 --> 00:13:46,525 and horizontal construction and blow it all up. 376 00:13:46,525 --> 00:13:48,894 And a communications guy that can send Morse code 377 00:13:48,894 --> 00:13:51,397 from the top of a cottonwood tree, like, 378 00:13:51,397 --> 00:13:53,299 you know, these guys are bigger than life. 379 00:13:53,299 --> 00:13:54,166 And I get to 380 00:13:54,166 --> 00:13:55,668 I get to be with them, you know, 381 00:13:55,668 --> 00:13:58,070 I get to be with them and do these missions with them. 382 00:13:58,070 --> 00:13:59,738 It didn't even seem real to me. 383 00:13:59,738 --> 00:14:00,506 And then as I started 384 00:14:00,506 --> 00:14:03,475 to meet them in the training, I was like, 385 00:14:03,709 --> 00:14:06,145 oh my God, like, these are the coolest dudes 386 00:14:06,145 --> 00:14:06,979 I've ever seen. 387 00:14:06,979 --> 00:14:08,247 These NCOs 388 00:14:08,247 --> 00:14:09,682 and I get to be I mean, I'm actually 389 00:14:09,682 --> 00:14:10,883 going to be a team commander. 390 00:14:10,883 --> 00:14:13,953 I mean, it was just I can't even put it to this day. 391 00:14:13,953 --> 00:14:14,987 I can't put it into words. 392 00:14:14,987 --> 00:14:20,326 You know, those those men were so epic and so humble and so 393 00:14:21,293 --> 00:14:22,928 incredible 394 00:14:22,928 --> 00:14:26,198 that to spend 18 years of my life with them in 395 00:14:26,198 --> 00:14:29,134 some of the hardest problems and places on the planet, 396 00:14:29,134 --> 00:14:32,538 and now to call them friends and teammates, like, man, 397 00:14:32,738 --> 00:14:34,673 it was no wonder, 398 00:14:34,673 --> 00:14:36,575 you know, Mark got that big grin on his face 399 00:14:36,575 --> 00:14:37,943 when I asked him about what he did. 400 00:14:37,943 --> 00:14:39,945 Like, I can see it now to this day, 401 00:14:39,945 --> 00:14:42,781 and that's why I still work with so many young people 402 00:14:42,781 --> 00:14:44,917 on their journey for special ops. 403 00:14:44,917 --> 00:14:47,386 Because regardless of what you pick, 404 00:14:47,386 --> 00:14:49,555 if you're that in love with it. 405 00:14:49,555 --> 00:14:51,357 Yeah. You never work a day in your life. 406 00:14:51,357 --> 00:14:53,292 The passion that you have. 407 00:14:53,292 --> 00:14:54,159 And I 408 00:14:54,159 --> 00:14:57,263 didn't realize the mission of working with indigenous a. 409 00:14:57,263 --> 00:14:59,865 Lot of people don't. Yeah. Yeah a lot of people don't. 410 00:14:59,865 --> 00:15:02,334 I say that a modern day Green Beret is a combination 411 00:15:02,334 --> 00:15:05,371 of John Wick, Lawrence of Arabia and the Verizon guy. 412 00:15:06,472 --> 00:15:07,473 You know, like they keep 413 00:15:07,473 --> 00:15:09,275 these relationship based connectors. 414 00:15:09,275 --> 00:15:10,276 They happen to be lethal. 415 00:15:10,276 --> 00:15:12,177 But that's that's only if it's necessary. 416 00:15:12,177 --> 00:15:12,912 Right. What? 417 00:15:12,912 --> 00:15:16,081 You know, think of what I call the Lawrencian skills. 418 00:15:16,081 --> 00:15:16,615 You know, T.E. 419 00:15:16,615 --> 00:15:17,650 Lawrence, 420 00:15:17,650 --> 00:15:21,053 a lot of people don't

know this, but in 1917, T.E. 421 00:15:21,053 --> 00:15:22,922 Lawrence, Lawrence of Arabia, he walked. 422 00:15:22,922 --> 00:15:23,756 He walked into 423 00:15:23,756 --> 00:15:26,125 what is modern day Syria during World War one. 424 00:15:26,125 --> 00:15:28,227 And he mobilized the Badoo tribe, 425 00:15:28,227 --> 00:15:28,894 a tribe 426 00:15:28,894 --> 00:15:30,963 that could not even sit in the same tent together 427 00:15:30,963 --> 00:15:32,765 without unsheathing their knives on each other. 428 00:15:32,765 --> 00:15:34,166 He mobilized them 429 00:15:34,166 --> 00:15:37,536 to take the crown jewel of the Ottoman Empire, Aqaba, 430 00:15:38,470 --> 00:15:39,772 from the desert, 431 00:15:39,772 --> 00:15:40,472 because he knew, 432 00:15:40,472 --> 00:15:42,174 as a former geologist and working there 433 00:15:42,174 --> 00:15:44,910 that all the guns pointed toward the sea. But he was. 434 00:15:44,910 --> 00:15:46,612 He understood local context. 435 00:15:46,612 --> 00:15:48,147 He understood the language. 436 00:15:48,147 --> 00:15:50,149 He understood the vulnerabilities, 437 00:15:50,149 --> 00:15:52,818 and he understood interpersonal skills 438 00:15:52,818 --> 00:15:54,753 and could mobilize people through storytelling 439 00:15:54,753 --> 00:15:57,589 and active listening to do feats they would never do. 440 00:15:57,589 --> 00:15:58,757 And to this day, 441 00:15:58,757 --> 00:16:00,559 he still regarded as one of the 442 00:16:00,559 --> 00:16:02,695 greatest influencers in modern history. 443 00:16:02,695 --> 00:16:04,897 And he was awarded for valor multiple times. 444 00:16:04,897 --> 00:16:07,466 But no one remembers T.E. Lawrence’s valor. 445 00:16:07,466 --> 00:16:07,866 They were. 446 00:16:07,866 --> 00:16:10,302 They remember him because he went in with one, 447 00:16:10,302 --> 00:16:12,171 and he came out with a thousand. 448 00:16:12,171 --> 00:16:15,274 And that was and is for me, the 449 00:16:15,341 --> 00:16:17,309 that is the mission of special forces. 450 00:16:17,309 --> 00:16:19,578 Is this this ability to work by, with 451 00:16:19,578 --> 00:16:22,181 and through and mobilize large groups of people 452 00:16:22,181 --> 00:16:23,582 to do things they otherwise wouldn't do. 453 00:16:23,582 --> 00:16:25,884 Well, it's the pinnacle of leadership. 454 00:16:25,884 --> 00:16:28,253 It's all influence, right? And it's authentic influence. 455 00:16:28,253 --> 00:16:29,922 And if you get it wrong, you're dead. 456 00:16:29,922 --> 00:16:32,358 You're not in that context. Right. 457 00:16:32,358 --> 00:16:33,492 That's very high stakes. 458 00:16:33,492 --> 00:16:36,495 And so it really parlayed nicely for me, 459 00:16:37,196 --> 00:16:39,498 because what I fell in love 460 00:16:39,498 --> 00:16:42,501 with was the art and science of human connection 461 00:16:42,735 --> 00:16:44,870 and the idea of of moving people 462 00:16:44,870 --> 00:16:46,839 to take action when they're scared 463 00:16:46,839 --> 00:16:49,508 and when they're reluctant or when they're angry. 464 00:16:49,508 --> 00:16:52,378 If you can do that without rank or authority, 465 00:16:52,378 --> 00:16:54,213 you know, the world is your oyster. 466 00:16:54,213 --> 00:16:56,215 Yeah, yeah. Very good. 467 00:16:56,215 --> 00:16:58,484 So what are some of the keys 468 00:16:58,484 --> 00:17:01,487 for that kind of leadership? 469 00:17:01,487 --> 00:17:02,755 You know what? 470 00:17:02,755 --> 00:17:06,425 What should cadets be investing in right now 471 00:17:06,425 --> 00:17:07,960 to develop those skills? 472 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,896 Or is it something that you kind of have and develop? 473 00:17:10,896 --> 00:17:12,798 Is it something that can be learned? 474 00:17:12,798 --> 00:17:13,899 Yeah, it's the whole chicken 475 00:17:13,899 --> 00:17:15,234 and egg thing on leadership, right. 476 00:17:15,234 --> 00:17:18,003 You know, but I, I focus on 477 00:17:19,405 --> 00:17:20,639 a definition that, 478 00:17:20,639 --> 00:17:22,508 Professor James Clawson, I shared it with you 479 00:17:22,508 --> 00:17:24,543 earlier, but humans are mostly energy, 480 00:17:24,543 --> 00:17:26,378 and leadership is the management of energy. 481 00:17:26,378 --> 00:17:27,579 Yours and those around you. 482 00:17:27,579 --> 00:17:28,414 So if you can 483 00:17:28,414 --> 00:17:31,417 if for starters, I think we have to as leaders, 484 00:17:31,884 --> 00:17:33,519 whether we're leading our, 485 00:17:33,519 --> 00:17:34,820 you know, at VMI 486 00:17:34,820 --> 00:17:35,988 or whether we're leading our community 487 00:17:35,988 --> 00:17:39,291 or whether we're leading a platoon of, you know, Rangers 488 00:17:39,925 --> 00:17:41,894 leadership is the management of energy. 489 00:17:41,894 --> 00:17:43,328 You have to manage your own energy, 490 00:17:43,328 --> 00:17:44,296 and then you have to manage 491 00:17:44,296 --> 00:17:45,497 the energy of those around you, 492 00:17:45,497 --> 00:17:47,733 which means you have to be able to influence people. 493 00:17:47,733 --> 00:17:48,834 Yeah. Right. 494 00:17:48,834 --> 00:17:50,669 To manage your own energy 495 00:17:50,669 --> 00:17:52,771 is much harder, I think, than leading. 496 00:17:52,771 --> 00:17:53,639 To yes. 497 00:17:53,639 --> 00:17:55,974 You know, you have to you have to find your purpose. 498 00:17:55,974 --> 00:17:59,178 You have to find your goals or goal oriented creatures. 499 00:17:59,411 --> 00:18:01,680 Our brains have a mandate to make sense of the world. 500 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,116 That's how we navigate. So what is your goal? 501 00:18:04,116 --> 00:18:05,517 What is your purpose? What are your vision? 502 00:18:05,517 --> 00:18:06,085 And you have to 503 00:18:06,085 --> 00:18:07,286 you have to really get clear on it, 504 00:18:07,286 --> 00:18:09,221 because if you're not clear, no one's going to follow you. 505

00:18:09,221 --> 00:18:10,422 Right? Yeah. Right. Yeah. 506 00:18:10,422 --> 00:18:13,225 You're leading them to this nebulous I don't know. 507 00:18:13,225 --> 00:18:15,127 Yeah. We all we've worked with that person haven't we. 508 00:18:15,127 --> 00:18:16,695 We've always worked around that like 509 00:18:16,695 --> 00:18:18,730 and you know we we just typically don't 510 00:18:18,730 --> 00:18:20,065 follow leaders who aren't clear. 511 00:18:20,065 --> 00:18:23,469 I wonder if they're not clear if they're just so 512 00:18:23,936 --> 00:18:25,337 they're just holding their cards 513 00:18:25,337 --> 00:18:27,806 so close to the chest that you're 514 00:18:27,806 --> 00:18:29,274 I don't know if it's a control thing 515 00:18:29,274 --> 00:18:31,076 or just a lack of communication. 516 00:18:31,076 --> 00:18:33,312 Well, either way it presents is unclear. 517 00:18:33,312 --> 00:18:34,346 Yeah it does. Right. 518 00:18:34,346 --> 00:18:37,883 And so for for those of us who are have to follow, 519 00:18:37,883 --> 00:18:40,252 we're not going to follow our anticipate needs. Yeah. 520 00:18:40,252 --> 00:18:40,552 Yeah. 521 00:18:40,552 --> 00:18:41,487 We're just not going to follow 522 00:18:41,487 --> 00:18:43,455 someone who doesn't present as clear. 523 00:18:43,455 --> 00:18:45,324 And then for leading others, 524 00:18:45,324 --> 00:18:48,527 I think, you know, what I tell people is the first thing is 525 00:18:48,660 --> 00:18:50,095 you have to understand 526 00:18:50,095 --> 00:18:51,797 what I call the human operating system. 527 00:18:51,797 --> 00:18:53,065 And I talk a lot about this 528 00:18:53,065 --> 00:18:54,533 in my book, Nobody's Coming to Save you. 529 00:18:54,533 --> 00:18:56,101 But it's basically 530 00:18:56,101 --> 00:18:59,004 if the human operating system is an iceberg. 531 00:18:59,004 --> 00:19:00,772 The tip of the iceberg is the modern world. 532 00:19:00,772 --> 00:19:03,542 It's what you have to do it. Class know VMI tour schedule. 533 00:19:03,542 --> 00:19:07,279 It's it's all of the you know the the 9 to 5 stuff. 534 00:19:07,279 --> 00:19:09,014 And for the folks here it's like 18 hours. 535 00:19:09,014 --> 00:19:11,884 But you know it's the it's the modern world stuff. Right. 536 00:19:11,884 --> 00:19:12,851 But but below the 537 00:19:12,851 --> 00:19:14,386 that's only 10% of who we are, 538 00:19:14,386 --> 00:19:17,389 20% below the waterline on that iceberg 539 00:19:17,489 --> 00:19:19,091 is 80% of our humanity. 540 00:19:19,091 --> 00:19:20,859 It's 250,000 years old. 541 00:19:20,859 --> 00:19:22,427 We are still this is the good news 542 00:19:22,427 --> 00:19:24,096 for every cadet listening to. This is 543 00:19:25,197 --> 00:19:25,831 what is 544 00:19:25,831 --> 00:19:29,168 innate within you in terms of your biological gifts. 545 00:19:29,168 --> 00:19:31,170 For example, humans are meaning seeking. 546 00:19:31,170 --> 00:19:32,504 We are emotional. 547 00:19:32,504 --> 00:19:33,839 We are social creatures. 548 00:19:33,839 --> 00:19:35,974 We're storytellers, and we go through struggle. 549 00:19:35,974 --> 00:19:37,376 We're a mess, right? 550 00:19:37,376 --> 00:19:39,311 If you understand, I know there's three S's. 551 00:19:39,311 --> 00:19:40,846 That's my Arkansas public education. 552 00:19:40,846 --> 00:19:41,446 They're coming out. 553 00:19:41,446 --> 00:19:43,749 But, if you understand those things 554 00:19:43,749 --> 00:19:45,484 meaning, emotion, social connection, 555 00:19:45,484 --> 00:19:46,919 storytelling and struggle, 556 00:19:46,919 --> 00:19:48,787 and you look at them as lenses 557 00:19:48,787 --> 00:19:51,490 to navigate the world in ways of connecting with people, 558 00:19:51,490 --> 00:19:52,824 you have a competitive advantage. 559 00:19:52,824 --> 00:19:54,626 Because most people today 560 00:19:54,626 --> 00:19:55,661 are so caught up in the tip 561 00:19:55,661 --> 00:19:57,996 of the iceberg transactional rat race, 562 00:19:57,996 --> 00:19:59,498 they don't think about meaning. 563 00:19:59,498 --> 00:20:01,099 They don't think about emotional temperature. 564 00:20:01,099 --> 00:20:03,302 They don't think about social portfolios. 565 00:20:03,302 --> 00:20:06,305 And relationships as real assets. 566 00:20:06,438 --> 00:20:07,806 They don't think about storytelling 567 00:20:07,806 --> 00:20:09,708 as a way to influence when everybody else 568 00:20:09,708 --> 00:20:11,677 is using PowerPoint and podiums. 569 00:20:11,677 --> 00:20:13,245 And they don't think about struggle 570 00:20:13,245 --> 00:20:14,446 like we talked about earlier, 571 00:20:14,446 --> 00:20:16,515 actually, as a biological necessity. 572 00:20:16,515 --> 00:20:18,417 Struggle is a gift. Yeah, right. 573 00:20:18,417 --> 00:20:20,586 Because only through struggle can we find resolution. 574 00:20:20,586 --> 00:20:22,821 So that would be my big message. 575 00:20:22,821 --> 00:20:24,089 I think here is 576 00:20:25,057 --> 00:20:25,924 understand that 577 00:20:25,924 --> 00:20:28,927 within you are these innate, 578 00:20:29,261 --> 00:20:32,231 ancient, timeless realities of meaning, 579 00:20:32,231 --> 00:20:35,467 emotions, social connection, storytelling and struggle. 580 00:20:35,968 --> 00:20:38,203 And if you can harness those, 581 00:20:38,203 --> 00:20:40,505 whether you serve in the military or not, 582 00:20:40,505 --> 00:20:41,073 you will have 583 00:20:41,073 --> 00:20:44,076 a competitive advantage in how you lead others. 584 00:20:44,109 --> 00:20:45,744 I like that you mentioned too, about 585 00:20:45,744 --> 00:20:48,914 how transactionally focused we are today. 586 00:20:49,248 --> 00:20:51,250 That's something, you know, as the Center 587 00:20:51,250 --> 00:20:53,118 for Leadership and Ethics. 588 00:20:53,118 --> 00:20:55,053 Not all of the curriculum 589 00:20:55,053 --> 00:20:58,824 that we offer is

mandatory or required. 590 00:20:59,124 --> 00:21:00,826 And so we have to 591 00:21:00,826 --> 00:21:04,396 do some storytelling as well in order to say, 592 00:21:04,630 --> 00:21:06,698 no, this is really going to benefit you. 593 00:21:06,698 --> 00:21:08,934 I know you're not getting the grade right. 594 00:21:08,934 --> 00:21:09,368 Some of 595 00:21:09,368 --> 00:21:13,105 you are getting some points for coming, but, really, 596 00:21:13,105 --> 00:21:15,274 we have curated the content 597 00:21:15,274 --> 00:21:18,443 we think is going to benefit your journey here at VMI. 598 00:21:18,477 --> 00:21:20,245 What do you think about the leadership at VMI? 599 00:21:20,245 --> 00:21:21,647 Look, when I first came to VMI, 600 00:21:21,647 --> 00:21:23,982 when I was a junior in college, I don't even, 601 00:21:23,982 --> 00:21:25,317 like tell you what year that was, 602 00:21:25,317 --> 00:21:27,085 but it was in another century. 603 00:21:27,085 --> 00:21:29,021 How about that? Yeah. There you go. 604 00:21:30,222 --> 00:21:32,491 The leadership 605 00:21:32,491 --> 00:21:33,825 and I didn't go to school here. 606 00:21:33,825 --> 00:21:34,159 Right. 607 00:21:34,159 --> 00:21:35,961 So I'm I the only reason I'm 608 00:21:35,961 --> 00:21:37,696 telling you this is because I believe it. 609 00:21:37,696 --> 00:21:40,599 The leadership here and that you are taught here. 610 00:21:40,599 --> 00:21:43,602 And I've worked in every academy in the country. 611 00:21:43,735 --> 00:21:46,705 There's nothing like what's taught here, period. 612 00:21:47,005 --> 00:21:48,940 And particularly foundationally 613 00:21:48,940 --> 00:21:51,043 in the realm of leadership. I've seen what you all teach. 614 00:21:51,043 --> 00:21:52,544 I've been the recipient 615 00:21:52,544 --> 00:21:54,012 in different ways of what you all teach. 616 00:21:54,012 --> 00:21:57,883 And I have led and been led by VMI graduates 617 00:21:57,883 --> 00:21:59,818 on the battlefield. Yeah. 618 00:21:59,818 --> 00:22:02,821 And I'm here to tell you, there is nothing 619 00:22:02,954 --> 00:22:05,357 like what you get in leadership at VMI... 620 00:22:05,357 --> 00:22:06,391 in the world. 621 00:22:06,391 --> 00:22:09,394 We like to say we're small but mighty 100%. 622 00:22:09,561 --> 00:22:13,165 So, I hope that resonates. 623 00:22:13,165 --> 00:22:15,701 And I hope that folks take me at my word on that, 624 00:22:15,701 --> 00:22:17,803 because you're not going to get it anywhere else. 625 00:22:17,803 --> 00:22:19,938 So, you know, absorb it. 626 00:22:19,938 --> 00:22:20,472 Yes, sir. 627 00:22:20,472 --> 00:22:23,608 Cadets have to engage in a lot of peer leadership. 628 00:22:23,608 --> 00:22:25,877 In fact, I feel like, 629 00:22:25,877 --> 00:22:29,748 quite frankly, one of our competitive advantages 630 00:22:29,748 --> 00:22:33,919 is the fact that you do get so much peer leadership, 631 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,255 as an undergraduate, in other words, like, 632 00:22:37,255 --> 00:22:39,124 I struggled paying for college. 633 00:22:39,124 --> 00:22:41,927 Yeah. And so I had to get a job 634 00:22:41,927 --> 00:22:43,195 where I could really earn money. 635 00:22:43,195 --> 00:22:45,497 I couldn't be somebody, you know, coffee slipper. 636 00:22:45,497 --> 00:22:47,299 I had to, like, work. Yeah. 637 00:22:47,299 --> 00:22:50,836 And for some kids, that's still their reality. 638 00:22:50,836 --> 00:22:53,271 And so the opportunity to. 639 00:22:53,271 --> 00:22:55,307 If I could have put that on my resume. 640 00:22:55,307 --> 00:22:56,241 Yeah. 641 00:22:56,241 --> 00:22:59,578 Without having to do it as a summer job, 642 00:23:00,045 --> 00:23:03,048 I think it's just it is a huge competitive advantage. 643 00:23:03,115 --> 00:23:05,751 Oh, can you talk a little bit about peer leadership. 644 00:23:05,751 --> 00:23:06,618 You know, you talked a lot 645 00:23:06,618 --> 00:23:09,020 about you know not having rank. Yes. 646 00:23:09,020 --> 00:23:12,724 And being able you know, to have that influence anyway. 647 00:23:13,024 --> 00:23:14,593 Well yes I think I can. 648 00:23:14,593 --> 00:23:18,230 And the, the the example I would give on this is this. 649 00:23:18,497 --> 00:23:20,665 So this is where I come from on peer leadership. 650 00:23:20,665 --> 00:23:23,502 This was my context, but it was not uncommon 651 00:23:23,502 --> 00:23:25,771 to get dropped into a place in rural Afghanistan 652 00:23:25,771 --> 00:23:29,174 where you go in and you can feel the hostility in the air. 653 00:23:29,608 --> 00:23:32,844 You know, you are probably 75 miles from the nearest 654 00:23:33,412 --> 00:23:35,013 quick reaction force or hospital. 655 00:23:35,013 --> 00:23:36,882 You've got nine guys with you. 656 00:23:36,882 --> 00:23:39,117 There's 300 people in this village, 657 00:23:39,117 --> 00:23:41,820 you know, and you're going into to meet with this elder. 658 00:23:41,820 --> 00:23:43,054 You've taken off all your kit. 659 00:23:43,054 --> 00:23:45,056 The only thing you have on is your sidearm. 660 00:23:45,056 --> 00:23:46,825 And there's a circle of old men 661 00:23:46,825 --> 00:23:50,695 looking at you with a scowl that, says it all right. 662 00:23:50,695 --> 00:23:54,399 And the lead elder is sitting right across from you, and 663 00:23:54,900 --> 00:23:56,034 this dude's got eyes 664 00:23:56,034 --> 00:23:57,969 that are cutting through you like lasers. 665 00:23:57,969 --> 00:24:00,338 And on his right is an AK 47. 666 00:24:00,338 --> 00:24:02,007 And on his left is a cup of green tea. 667 00:24:03,442 --> 00:24:05,577 And you're really hoping 668 00:24:05,577 --> 00:24:08,547 you can get him to reach for that tea. Yeah, yeah. 669 00:24:08,547 --> 00:24:10,215 And you have no authority over him. 670 00:24:10,215 --> 00:24:12,417 You have no influence over him. 671 00:24:12,417 --> 00:24:14,186 Like you can't

coerce him. You can. 672 00:24:14,186 --> 00:24:15,754 You can try and reach for your weapon, but 673 00:24:15,754 --> 00:24:18,223 like, you're going to be dead in seconds. 674 00:24:18,223 --> 00:24:21,593 And so you have to find a way to connect with him 675 00:24:21,793 --> 00:24:22,494 and, and, 676 00:24:22,494 --> 00:24:24,496 and just make a human connection 677 00:24:24,496 --> 00:24:27,032 and build some initial rapport. 678 00:24:27,032 --> 00:24:29,301 He takes us hippity hopefully he offers you some 679 00:24:29,301 --> 00:24:31,436 and you go incrementally from there. 680 00:24:31,436 --> 00:24:34,840 I believe that is what peer leadership is in many ways. 681 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:36,842 I mean, yes, in VMI you are 682 00:24:36,842 --> 00:24:39,845 put in these situations where you have to lead. 683 00:24:39,945 --> 00:24:42,848 Maybe you're given a title, maybe you're given temporary 684 00:24:42,848 --> 00:24:44,249 or episodic responsibility, 685 00:24:44,249 --> 00:24:47,052 or maybe you're given responsibility for the year. 686 00:24:47,052 --> 00:24:49,554 But that to me, peer leadership were true. 687 00:24:49,554 --> 00:24:51,056 Peer leadership is when you lead, 688 00:24:51,056 --> 00:24:52,324 when nobody's looking, 689 00:24:52,324 --> 00:24:55,327 when you lead, when it's not in the spotlight. 690 00:24:55,327 --> 00:24:57,429 Right is when you lead, when you can lead 691 00:24:57,429 --> 00:24:59,331 because it's the right thing to do. 692 00:24:59,331 --> 00:25:01,333 And a lot of that leadership 693 00:25:01,333 --> 00:25:02,934 is just making a human connection. 694 00:25:02,934 --> 00:25:05,837 It is being a good teammate. It is it is it is. 695 00:25:05,837 --> 00:25:08,840 It is checking in on your Ranger buddy 696 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:10,609 or your combat buddy 697 00:25:10,609 --> 00:25:11,877 to get out of your own head 698 00:25:11,877 --> 00:25:13,245 because you're doubting yourself. 699 00:25:13,245 --> 00:25:14,513 And so in that moment of doubt, 700 00:25:14,513 --> 00:25:17,883 you go and check on somebody else like that, you know? 701 00:25:18,416 --> 00:25:19,551 And I learned that in Ranger School. 702 00:25:19,551 --> 00:25:20,819 Was that the best way to stay 703 00:25:20,819 --> 00:25:22,254 and to stay awake 704 00:25:22,254 --> 00:25:23,755 and to stay in the game in Ranger 705 00:25:23,755 --> 00:25:25,757 school was to get out of your own head 706 00:25:25,757 --> 00:25:27,993 and go check on somebody else and just, you know, 707 00:25:27,993 --> 00:25:29,127 ask how their feet are doing 708 00:25:29,127 --> 00:25:30,395 or just, you know, check in on them. 709 00:25:32,097 --> 00:25:34,633 That I think that's to me, that's peer leadership. 710 00:25:34,633 --> 00:25:35,200 You know, peer 711 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,235 leadership is is really looking 712 00:25:37,235 --> 00:25:39,037 for opportunities to make a difference, 713 00:25:39,037 -->

00:25:40,972 to be value, to be value added. 714 00:25:40,972 --> 00:25:43,775 One of my dear friends is a coach at Dunn. 715 00:25:43,775 --> 00:25:45,176 He's a D1 baseball coach. 716 00:25:45,176 --> 00:25:48,146 And he says that the number one question he, 717 00:25:48,146 --> 00:25:52,417 he asked, he loves his, his teammates to say to him 718 00:25:52,784 --> 00:25:55,787 is, coach, what position can I play for you today? 719 00:25:55,820 --> 00:25:56,488 Oh, nice. 720 00:25:56,488 --> 00:25:57,055 You know what I mean? 721 00:25:57,055 --> 00:25:58,557 Like that's just a great question. 722 00:25:58,557 --> 00:26:01,226 And peer to peer leadership is that to me 723 00:26:01,226 --> 00:26:03,495 is what position can I play for you right now. 724 00:26:03,495 --> 00:26:06,431 You know, what do you need for me? 725 00:26:06,431 --> 00:26:09,234 You talked a little bit earlier when we were doing 726 00:26:09,234 --> 00:26:11,503 our own little icebreaker set apart 727 00:26:11,503 --> 00:26:13,505 about the temperature in the room. 728 00:26:13,505 --> 00:26:17,342 You know, sometimes, you know, based on what 729 00:26:17,342 --> 00:26:18,944 your background and experiences are. 730 00:26:18,944 --> 00:26:20,412 You know, our cadets, 731 00:26:20,412 --> 00:26:21,613 if you're in the leadership 732 00:26:21,613 --> 00:26:25,483 position, they might have to come into a tense situation 733 00:26:25,884 --> 00:26:30,055 or they might have, a roommate that's just having. 734 00:26:30,055 --> 00:26:30,422 Yeah, 735 00:26:30,422 --> 00:26:32,824 their family just imploded or their girlfriend 736 00:26:32,824 --> 00:26:34,426 or boyfriend just broke up with them. 737 00:26:34,426 --> 00:26:36,761 Anyway. Emotions are running high. Yeah. 738 00:26:36,761 --> 00:26:39,264 Can you talk a little bit about managing that? 739 00:26:39,264 --> 00:26:42,033 Because as you pointed out, people are messy. 740 00:26:42,033 --> 00:26:42,801 People are messy. 741 00:26:42,801 --> 00:26:44,636 So how do you manage that? 742 00:26:44,636 --> 00:26:46,404 That's a great question. 743 00:26:46,404 --> 00:26:48,807 Let's go back to the iceberg, the metaphor of the iceberg. 744 00:26:48,807 --> 00:26:50,508 Because our brain works in metaphor. Right. 745 00:26:50,508 --> 00:26:51,576 So let's let's let's go 746 00:26:51,576 --> 00:26:53,244 back to the let's go back to the iceberg. 747 00:26:53,244 --> 00:26:54,479 And we said the modern world 748 00:26:54,479 --> 00:26:55,947 is the tip of the iceberg, right. 749 00:26:55,947 --> 00:26:56,948 That's the all the, 750 00:26:56,948 --> 00:26:59,184 the transactional things, the meetings, all of the, 751 00:26:59,184 --> 00:27:00,285 all the things that are 752 00:27:00,285 --> 00:27:03,188 rules and codes at VMI are tip of the iceberg things. 753 00:27:03,188 --> 00:27:03,455 Right. 754 00:27:03,455 --> 00:27:05,457 Like they're modern world kind of things. 755 00:27:05,457 --> 00:27:07,092 Below the iceberg are the emotional 756 00:27:07,092 --> 00:27:09,294 realities of being human. 757 00:27:09,294 --> 00:27:11,096 Okay, so this is where meaning 758 00:27:11,096 --> 00:27:11,396 this is 759 00:27:11,396 --> 00:27:13,298 where emotional stuff lives. This is where 760 00:27:13,298 --> 00:27:16,301 social connections struggle, storytelling. 761 00:27:16,501 --> 00:27:19,304 The reality is we are the most emotional 762 00:27:19,304 --> 00:27:20,772 creatures on the planet. 763 00:27:20,772 --> 00:27:22,907 We navigate the world using emotions. 764 00:27:22,907 --> 00:27:25,276 Now all of us are conditioned to push our emotions down. 765 00:27:25,276 --> 00:27:26,978 And at VMI, we certainly have to do that. 766 00:27:26,978 --> 00:27:29,481 You have to have control over your emotions. 767 00:27:29,481 --> 00:27:32,250 But we also have to realize, and I've seen this with 768 00:27:32,250 --> 00:27:35,053 Green Berets and Navy Seals and Army Rangers, that, 769 00:27:35,053 --> 00:27:37,789 you know, we're losing so many of them to suicide. 770 00:27:37,789 --> 00:27:39,524 And I stood in a closet myself 771 00:27:39,524 --> 00:27:41,793 holding a pistol under my chin 772 00:27:41,793 --> 00:27:44,663 after coming home from three successful combat tours. 773 00:27:44,663 --> 00:27:47,599 You know, I was at the top of my game, but then I wasn't. 774 00:27:47,599 --> 00:27:49,934 And my my world fell apart. 775 00:27:49,934 --> 00:27:51,603 You know, everything fell apart for me. 776 00:27:51,603 --> 00:27:54,172 And and so my emotions took over. 777 00:27:54,172 --> 00:27:54,739 And, you know, 778 00:27:54,739 --> 00:27:56,608 the elephant took over for the rider, 779 00:27:56,608 --> 00:27:58,743 you know, and the elephant was taking the rider 780 00:27:58,743 --> 00:28:00,745 into the jungle at full speed. 781 00:28:00,745 --> 00:28:02,047 And, and that happens. 782 00:28:02,047 --> 00:28:03,615 This is going to happen. 783 00:28:03,615 --> 00:28:06,685 This is why leadership is the management of energy yours 784 00:28:07,252 --> 00:28:08,987 and then those around you. Right. 785 00:28:08,987 --> 00:28:09,688 We are we in. 786 00:28:09,688 --> 00:28:13,291 So our nervous system is designed to keep us alive. 787 00:28:13,825 --> 00:28:17,128 And if it's if it detects a threat, you know, the 788 00:28:17,162 --> 00:28:19,364 you know, the ancient brain doesn't really know 789 00:28:19,364 --> 00:28:19,998 the difference 790 00:28:19,998 --> 00:28:23,034 between a saber tooth tiger in the bushes and, 791 00:28:23,535 --> 00:28:24,669 you know, my girlfriend, 792 00:28:24,669 --> 00:28:26,604 her boyfriend just broke up with me. 793 00:28:26,604 --> 00:28:28,306 The biological response? 794 00:28:28,306 --> 00:28:29,708 We are ancient creatures. 795 00:28:29,708 --> 00:28:32,544 The biological response is we go into a sympathetic state 796 00:28:32,544 --> 00:28:34,012 of fight, flight

or freeze. 797 00:28:34,012 --> 00:28:35,847 The nervous system kicks into high gear, 798 00:28:35,847 --> 00:28:37,415 we become emotionally aroused 799 00:28:37,415 --> 00:28:40,418 and we become angry or are a fear based. 800 00:28:40,819 --> 00:28:42,020 And that's what you know. 801 00:28:42,020 --> 00:28:44,355 Doctor Ivan Toral says anger makes us stupid. 802 00:28:44,355 --> 00:28:44,723 Yeah. 803 00:28:44,723 --> 00:28:46,257 You know, not in a derogatory way, 804 00:28:46,257 --> 00:28:48,960 but our frontal cortex shuts down and so 805 00:28:49,961 --> 00:28:51,496 we lose our agency. 806 00:28:51,496 --> 00:28:52,797 We become, you know, 807 00:28:52,797 --> 00:28:56,201 so emotionally charged that we we can't think straight. 808 00:28:56,668 --> 00:29:00,805 This is where I think as peer leaders, we have to see that. 809 00:29:01,039 --> 00:29:03,074 And it doesn't excuse behavior. 810 00:29:03,074 --> 00:29:04,309 But what we have to realize 811 00:29:04,309 --> 00:29:05,410 is that when someone is in 812 00:29:05,410 --> 00:29:06,244 that highly aroused 813 00:29:06,244 --> 00:29:10,014 emotional state, whether it's a PTS, episode 814 00:29:10,014 --> 00:29:12,083 with a veteran or whether it's, again, 815 00:29:12,083 --> 00:29:12,751 a young cadet 816 00:29:12,751 --> 00:29:14,953 who has a family crisis or trauma, 817 00:29:14,953 --> 00:29:17,856 we have to bring the emotional temperature down, 818 00:29:17,856 --> 00:29:19,791 because if you don't, the other party 819 00:29:19,791 --> 00:29:21,459 is not ready to listen to what you have to say. 820 00:29:21,459 --> 00:29:22,327 They can't hear you. 821 00:29:22,327 --> 00:29:24,229 They physiologically can't hear you. 822 00:29:24,229 --> 00:29:28,099 So how as a peer, as a leader, can you get the other party 823 00:29:28,099 --> 00:29:29,067 ready to listen? 824 00:29:29,067 --> 00:29:31,269 How can you bring their emotional temperature down? 825 00:29:31,269 --> 00:29:33,905 A lot of that is just being grounded, 826 00:29:33,905 --> 00:29:35,273 feeling your feet on the floor, 827 00:29:35,273 --> 00:29:36,775 staying connected to your breath. 828 00:29:36,775 --> 00:29:38,376 Don't let yourself get clicked up. 829 00:29:38,376 --> 00:29:39,878 If you if you're getting agitated, 830 00:29:39,878 --> 00:29:41,212 say, let's take a break. 831 00:29:41,212 --> 00:29:42,247 Yeah, you know, 832 00:29:42,247 --> 00:29:44,616 there's all kinds of things that you can do. 833 00:29:44,616 --> 00:29:46,618 I talk about them in my school community. 834 00:29:46,618 --> 00:29:48,953 I have a free school community, 835 00:29:48,953 --> 00:29:50,455 called the School of Rooftop Leadership, 836 00:29:50,455 --> 00:29:52,123 where we talk about this stuff all the time 837 00:29:52,123 --> 00:29:53,792 because we all face it, 838 00:29:53,792 --> 00:29:55,727 you know, we all face it with our kids. 839 00:29:55,727 --> 00:29:58,496 But you've got to

manage emotional temperature first. 840 00:29:58,496 --> 00:30:00,231 Your own. It's just like putting your oxygen mask. 841 00:30:00,231 --> 00:30:01,299 On the floor. Yes. 842 00:30:01,299 --> 00:30:03,234 Bring your own emotional temperature down 843 00:30:03,234 --> 00:30:05,103 and then the the other party’s. 844 00:30:05,103 --> 00:30:07,372 And the best way to do that is breath. 845 00:30:07,372 --> 00:30:08,473 Yeah. 846 00:30:08,473 --> 00:30:08,907 That's good. 847 00:30:08,907 --> 00:30:11,876 Diaphragmatic breathing is a good exhale. 848 00:30:12,110 --> 00:30:13,645 Feel your feet on the floor. 849 00:30:13,645 --> 00:30:15,280 Notice three new things in the room. 850 00:30:16,481 --> 00:30:17,849 Another exhale 851 00:30:17,849 --> 00:30:18,283 feet on the 852 00:30:18,283 --> 00:30:19,684 floor three new things in the room 853 00:30:19,684 --> 00:30:22,954 I teach this to paramedics and and FBI. 854 00:30:22,954 --> 00:30:25,790 You know, after they go into a rough situation. 855 00:30:25,790 --> 00:30:26,958 That's how you bring your motion. 856 00:30:26,958 --> 00:30:29,427 You've got to get that back to a parasympathetic state. 857 00:30:29,427 --> 00:30:31,229 You've got to get back to a baseline. 858 00:30:31,229 --> 00:30:33,164 And no one teaches this. 859 00:30:33,164 --> 00:30:34,098 No, no. 860 00:30:34,098 --> 00:30:35,767 Well, you you think you learned it 861 00:30:35,767 --> 00:30:37,468 at home or somewhere else. 862 00:30:37,468 --> 00:30:38,903 And you would think conditions. 863 00:30:38,903 --> 00:30:41,539 But unless it's intentional 864 00:30:41,539 --> 00:30:41,906 you know, 865 00:30:41,906 --> 00:30:42,407 but you know, 866 00:30:42,407 --> 00:30:45,543 we don't spend hours and hours next to our parents 867 00:30:45,543 --> 00:30:48,213 side anymore the way people used to know. 868 00:30:48,213 --> 00:30:52,584 And so they aren't there to, to teach those lessons. 869 00:30:52,584 --> 00:30:55,019 So if if the school isn't teaching it 870 00:30:55,019 --> 00:30:56,187 and you're not around your parents 871 00:30:56,187 --> 00:30:57,889 for them to teach it, you're right. 872 00:30:57,889 --> 00:30:59,123 Where are you going to learn this? 873 00:30:59,123 --> 00:30:59,991 And for some of the kids 874 00:30:59,991 --> 00:31:01,593 listening to this, they're their kids. 875 00:31:01,593 --> 00:31:03,928 Their parents were the worst violators of it, right? 876 00:31:03,928 --> 00:31:05,730 Or they slapped them around, you know, like 877 00:31:05,730 --> 00:31:07,131 there was pre-service trauma. 878 00:31:07,131 --> 00:31:07,999 I mean, yes, 879 00:31:07,999 --> 00:31:09,634 the levels of pre-service trauma 880 00:31:09,634 --> 00:31:11,970 in special operations are above 85%. 881 00:31:11,970 --> 00:31:15,707 You know, like these operators came from trauma 882 00:31:15,707 --> 00:31:16,374 in their families. 883 00:31:16,374 --> 00:31:18,209 Well, we just had a bunch

of 884 00:31:18,209 --> 00:31:22,046 educational sessions with, our superintendent 885 00:31:22,213 --> 00:31:25,116 Lt. Gen. David Furness, just brought in a guy 886 00:31:25,116 --> 00:31:29,053 who taught to the Marine Corps about PTS winning, 887 00:31:29,621 --> 00:31:32,957 you know, and and how many people come into the service, 888 00:31:33,491 --> 00:31:35,660 with trauma already from 889 00:31:35,660 --> 00:31:38,296 Yes, from family situations, their background. Yeah. 890 00:31:38,296 --> 00:31:39,564 And I think you have a lot of that here 891 00:31:39,564 --> 00:31:42,033 because, like, a lot of... just assume 892 00:31:42,033 --> 00:31:44,035 someone has had it in their background. 100% 893 00:31:44,035 --> 00:31:47,605 And how do I get this person ready to listen right now, 894 00:31:47,839 --> 00:31:49,207 you know, how do I you know, 895 00:31:49,207 --> 00:31:51,409 the way Doctor Stuart Diamond says it and I love it. 896 00:31:51,409 --> 00:31:52,277 In his book “Getting More,” 897 00:31:52,277 --> 00:31:53,578 he says I need to see the pictures 898 00:31:53,578 --> 00:31:56,180 in the head of the other party if I can see the picture. 899 00:31:56,180 --> 00:31:56,547 And that's 900 00:31:56,547 --> 00:31:58,049 what I would teach and special forces, 901 00:31:58,049 --> 00:31:58,816 and this is what I would do 902 00:31:58,816 --> 00:32:00,351 when I'm sitting across from that elder, 903 00:32:00,351 --> 00:32:01,786 the only way I'm going to get him to reach for that 904 00:32:01,786 --> 00:32:03,955 tea versus that AK is that 905 00:32:03,955 --> 00:32:06,557 he's got to know that I see the pictures in his head. 906 00:32:06,557 --> 00:32:08,159 He's got to know 907 00:32:08,159 --> 00:32:11,496 that I am clear on what his goals and pain are 908 00:32:11,696 --> 00:32:13,398 because we are goal oriented creatures. 909 00:32:13,398 --> 00:32:14,666 I don't care who you are, right? 910 00:32:14,666 --> 00:32:17,435 And we're in pain trying to reach that goal, right? 911 00:32:17,435 --> 00:32:19,103 So if I can ascertain 912 00:32:19,103 --> 00:32:22,106 what your goals and pain are with pure curiosity, 913 00:32:22,106 --> 00:32:23,107 that is the goal. 914 00:32:23,107 --> 00:32:24,275 It's not so that I can do that 915 00:32:24,275 --> 00:32:26,544 so I can get my agenda across. 916 00:32:26,544 --> 00:32:29,614 I really want to know what are the pictures in your head? 917 00:32:29,614 --> 00:32:30,515 And I'm going to insist, 918 00:32:30,515 --> 00:32:31,382 and I'm not even going to talk 919 00:32:31,382 --> 00:32:35,253 about my transaction until I can see that and if I can. 920 00:32:35,253 --> 00:32:37,121 Chris Voss says this in “Never Split the Difference.” 921 00:32:38,256 --> 00:32:39,891 If I can say that back to you, like, okay, 922 00:32:39,891 --> 00:32:41,926 this is what I think I heard you say, Catherine. 923 00:32:41,926 --> 00:32:43,428 Uhhuh. And I lay it out for you. 924 00:32:43,428 --> 00:32:45,563 And in terms of what the goals are that I think you 925 00:32:45,563 --> 00:32:47,598 and I've asked questions that have allowed me to do 926 00:32:47,598 --> 00:32:48,166 that, 927 00:32:48,166 --> 00:32:50,201 your emotional temperature has come down in the process 928 00:32:50,201 --> 00:32:51,736 because you're responding in narrative, 929 00:32:51,736 --> 00:32:53,371 because we're story creatures. 930 00:32:53,371 --> 00:32:55,606 And I say, this is what I think I heard you say, 931 00:32:55,606 --> 00:32:58,176 and I reframe it, I recalibrate it back to you. 932 00:32:58,176 --> 00:33:00,545 Yeah. And, and and your goals and your pain. 933 00:33:00,545 --> 00:33:02,080 And you go, that's right. 934 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,849 Now you're probably ready to listen to me. 935 00:33:04,849 --> 00:33:06,818 Then something like, would it be okay 936 00:33:06,818 --> 00:33:08,186 if I share this with you? 937 00:33:08,186 --> 00:33:08,453 Right. 938 00:33:08,453 --> 00:33:09,354 You're still 939 00:33:09,354 --> 00:33:11,322 you're still achieving what you want, you know. 940 00:33:11,322 --> 00:33:14,859 But but the reality is, coercion is the worst 941 00:33:14,859 --> 00:33:17,862 possible tool in a peer to peer environment. 942 00:33:17,996 --> 00:33:18,629 Yeah. 943 00:33:18,629 --> 00:33:21,566 You know, it's it's a tool that we all have in our kitbag 944 00:33:21,566 --> 00:33:23,935 and certainly VMI. You know you apply it. 945 00:33:23,935 --> 00:33:26,371 You have to do it right. You have to do it. 946 00:33:26,371 --> 00:33:29,941 But I will tell you in the world of engagements, 947 00:33:30,408 --> 00:33:32,076 two thirds of your engagement, 948 00:33:32,076 --> 00:33:34,045 if you can see the pictures in the head of the other party, 949 00:33:34,045 --> 00:33:35,780 even if you're applying coercion. 950 00:33:35,780 --> 00:33:38,583 Chris Voss is a hostage negotiator, 951 00:33:38,583 --> 00:33:40,918 the first in the probably the best in the world. 952 00:33:40,918 --> 00:33:43,621 When he walks in, he asks thoughtful, open 953 00:33:43,621 --> 00:33:46,257 ended questions to see calibrated questions. 954 00:33:46,257 --> 00:33:47,392 He calls them to see the pictures 955 00:33:47,392 --> 00:33:48,459 in the head of the other party. 956 00:33:48,459 --> 00:33:50,194 That's because it's from there 957 00:33:50,194 --> 00:33:52,196 that he can actually influence them 958 00:33:52,196 --> 00:33:53,831 to put the gun down, to walk away, 959 00:33:53,831 --> 00:33:55,767 to bring them down and do a person sympathetic state. 960 00:33:55,767 --> 00:33:58,970 Question-ology in the in the moment of truth 961 00:33:59,337 --> 00:34:02,306 that lets you see the goals and pain of the other party. 962 00:34:02,407 --> 00:34:04,642 And the question should start with what and how. 963 00:34:06,277 --> 00:34:07,345 Yeah. 964 00:34:07,345 --> 00:34:08,446 How did

we get here. 965 00:34:08,446 --> 00:34:10,048 What's going on. 966 00:34:10,048 --> 00:34:12,417 What do you think we should do next. 967 00:34:12,417 --> 00:34:14,185 How do you feel about that. 968 00:34:14,185 --> 00:34:15,987 Avoid. Why. 969 00:34:15,987 --> 00:34:18,389 Yeah if you. Can. Yeah. 970 00:34:18,389 --> 00:34:21,159 So how did we even get into that part. 971 00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:24,162 I don't know but I love talking about it. 972 00:34:24,595 --> 00:34:26,798 Well it's this it's this leader journey. 973 00:34:26,798 --> 00:34:29,300 Yeah. You know, how do you how do you do peer leadership. 974 00:34:29,300 --> 00:34:31,669 And it is about these relationships. 975 00:34:31,669 --> 00:34:35,006 Talk a little bit about meaning and purpose. 976 00:34:35,606 --> 00:34:38,943 You know, that's a big that's a big part of your 977 00:34:39,243 --> 00:34:41,446 storytelling. It really is. And here's why. 978 00:34:41,446 --> 00:34:43,481 Because I always go back to the science of it. 979 00:34:43,481 --> 00:34:45,149 This is not I know, I know, it's easy to think, 980 00:34:45,149 --> 00:34:46,250 oh, this is woowoo stuff. 981 00:34:46,250 --> 00:34:47,552 But again, that's 982 00:34:47,552 --> 00:34:50,054 but just I invite you to go back to like, 983 00:34:50,054 --> 00:34:51,022 where this came from. 984 00:34:51,022 --> 00:34:53,524 Me was sitting across from that elder with an AK. 985 00:34:53,524 --> 00:34:55,393 Yeah, right. And a and a cup of tea for. 986 00:34:55,393 --> 00:34:56,127 The high stakes. 987 00:34:56,127 --> 00:34:56,828 So I'm not 988 00:34:56,828 --> 00:34:58,996 this isn't woowoo stuff like this is stuff 989 00:34:58,996 --> 00:35:01,699 that is rooted in the human elements of influence. 990 00:35:01,699 --> 00:35:04,936 It's, it's it's made, you know, the whole 991 00:35:04,936 --> 00:35:06,971 I hate this hard skill, soft skill thing. 992 00:35:06,971 --> 00:35:08,272 It's such a joke. 993 00:35:08,272 --> 00:35:11,275 You know, soft skills are actually the hard skills. 994 00:35:11,742 --> 00:35:12,243 Yeah. 995 00:35:12,243 --> 00:35:13,611 Challenging 996 00:35:13,611 --> 00:35:16,547 soft skills are actually how you get stuff done. 997 00:35:16,547 --> 00:35:18,616 The innate interpersonal skills. 998 00:35:18,616 --> 00:35:21,953 So many conversations about that and and how 999 00:35:22,553 --> 00:35:25,523 our communication skills, our empathy, 1000 00:35:25,523 --> 00:35:28,759 our emotional intelligence, how they really are, 1001 00:35:28,759 --> 00:35:30,962 what helps push the peanut forward. 1002 00:35:30,962 --> 00:35:31,696 If you will. 1003 00:35:31,696 --> 00:35:34,465 If the only tool in your kit bag is a hammer, 1004 00:35:34,465 --> 00:35:36,434 then every problem looks like a nail. 1005 00:35:36,434 --> 00:35:39,904 And I can promise you, while that seems relatively 1006 00:35:39,904 --> 00:35:42,440 easy, is just to apply coercion to everything, 1007 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:43,941 it does not work in combat. 1008 00:35:44,942 --> 00:35:47,345 Interestingly, it works to a degree 1009 00:35:47,345 --> 00:35:50,348 and you've got to make hard choices and put orders out. 1010 00:35:50,481 --> 00:35:51,782 But I'm telling you, 1011 00:35:51,782 --> 00:35:54,152 leadership comes from another place. 1012 00:35:54,152 --> 00:35:56,354 Leadership comes from the ability 1013 00:35:56,354 --> 00:35:57,889 to move and influence others 1014 00:35:57,889 --> 00:35:59,590 when they're scared and when they're angry. 1015 00:35:59,590 --> 00:35:59,857 Yeah. 1016 00:35:59,857 --> 00:36:03,361 And and so, let's get back to meaning and purpose, 1017 00:36:03,628 --> 00:36:07,398 you know, doctor Ivan Tirrell, 1018 00:36:07,465 --> 00:36:09,000 who wrote the book “The Human Givens.” 1019 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,536 He's a psychiatrist, an award winning psychiatrist. 1020 00:36:11,536 --> 00:36:12,503 He says that there are these 1021 00:36:12,503 --> 00:36:15,072 innate biological drivers that we all have. 1022 00:36:15,072 --> 00:36:17,375 Doesn't matter what our race is, where we come from, 1023 00:36:17,375 --> 00:36:20,211 when our language is below the waterline, 1024 00:36:20,211 --> 00:36:22,547 are these human givens that we all have. 1025 00:36:22,547 --> 00:36:25,449 And the top one is humans are meaning 1026 00:36:25,449 --> 00:36:28,452 seeking, meaning assigning creatures. 1027 00:36:28,786 --> 00:36:32,123 We seek and assign meaning in everything that we do. 1028 00:36:32,390 --> 00:36:33,691 The person across from you 1029 00:36:33,691 --> 00:36:35,726 is looking for meaning in what they do. 1030 00:36:35,726 --> 00:36:37,361 Your parents are looking for meaning. 1031 00:36:37,361 --> 00:36:40,364 You're here at VMI looking for meaning the brain. 1032 00:36:40,631 --> 00:36:43,634 Doctor, Kendal Haven says this one is “Storyproof.” 1033 00:36:43,734 --> 00:36:48,839 And he's done all kinds of, MRI and EEG research 1034 00:36:49,073 --> 00:36:52,076 and what he's found through neuroscience is that the brain 1035 00:36:52,376 --> 00:36:54,078 has a mandate to make sense of the world. 1036 00:36:54,078 --> 00:36:56,214 He calls it the make sense mandate. Right. 1037 00:36:56,214 --> 00:36:58,015 So our brains are all 1038 00:36:58,015 --> 00:36:59,217 we're the only mammals that do 1039 00:36:59,217 --> 00:37:01,085 that trying to make sense of things. 1040 00:37:01,085 --> 00:37:03,821 And if you can't make sense of it, 1041 00:37:03,821 --> 00:37:05,122 you're not going to take action. 1042 00:37:05,122 --> 00:37:06,224 If you can't assign 1043 00:37:06,224 --> 00:37:06,924 meaning to it, 1044 00:37:06,924 --> 00:37:09,894 you're only going to do it with a very small degree 1045 00:37:09,894 --> 00:37:11,629 of effort, because you're 1046 00:37:11,629 --> 00:37:12,730 you're not going to take that risk. 1047 00:37:12,730 --> 00:37:13,998 Your, you know,

your ancient brain 1048 00:37:13,998 --> 00:37:16,801 is going to scream at you don't. It's uncertain. 1049 00:37:16,801 --> 00:37:18,903 So I have to assign meaning to it. 1050 00:37:18,903 --> 00:37:20,838 Your peers have to assign meaning to it. 1051 00:37:20,838 --> 00:37:23,040 The people you lead need to have meaning. 1052 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:27,178 So, so meaning is essential if you can't clarify meaning 1053 00:37:27,178 --> 00:37:29,814 and purpose to yourself and those you serve, 1054 00:37:29,814 --> 00:37:31,415 they're not coming. 1055 00:37:31,415 --> 00:37:32,516 They're not going to follow you. 1056 00:37:32,516 --> 00:37:34,285 They're not going to follow you in a meaningful way. 1057 00:37:34,285 --> 00:37:38,489 So we almost have to obsess over meaning and purpose. 1058 00:37:38,489 --> 00:37:39,757 And I don't imply that to like, 1059 00:37:39,757 --> 00:37:42,627 sit on the side of a mountain and admire your navel, 1060 00:37:42,627 --> 00:37:44,228 like that kind of meaning. 1061 00:37:44,228 --> 00:37:44,528 Yeah. 1062 00:37:44,528 --> 00:37:46,063 I'm talking, you know, there's another thing 1063 00:37:46,063 --> 00:37:47,431 that I'll just say and I'll leave it at this. 1064 00:37:47,431 --> 00:37:50,034 This is why I think VMI so effective for for this 1065 00:37:51,302 --> 00:37:52,136 doctor Ivan Turtle 1066 00:37:52,136 --> 00:37:55,139 also says another human given is that 1067 00:37:55,906 --> 00:37:59,977 meaning movement and meaning are inextricably linked. 1068 00:38:00,978 --> 00:38:03,214 Mammals just movement. 1069 00:38:03,214 --> 00:38:05,883 If you move, that's where you find meaning. 1070 00:38:05,883 --> 00:38:08,352 Functional movement leads to meaning. 1071 00:38:08,352 --> 00:38:09,720 That's why a lot of times 1072 00:38:09,720 --> 00:38:11,822 when you're on a run or you're exercising, 1073 00:38:11,822 --> 00:38:14,191 something will come to you or you're in the shower. 1074 00:38:14,191 --> 00:38:15,293 Something will come to you. 1075 00:38:15,293 --> 00:38:16,827 Like really a moment of clarity. 1076 00:38:16,827 --> 00:38:17,762 Yeah, right. 1077 00:38:17,762 --> 00:38:20,197 So movement and meaning are linked. 1078 00:38:20,197 --> 00:38:23,501 So the more you can integrate functional movement 1079 00:38:23,501 --> 00:38:25,336 into your rhythm of your day. 1080 00:38:25,336 --> 00:38:27,471 That's why the Marines are out running at 5 a.m. 1081 00:38:27,471 --> 00:38:29,674 every morning, wherever they are. 1082 00:38:29,674 --> 00:38:32,677 Because it provides not just fitness but clarity. 1083 00:38:33,144 --> 00:38:34,645 You're clear right? 1084 00:38:34,645 --> 00:38:37,181 In all the chaos that's happening around you, 1085 00:38:37,181 --> 00:38:39,583 you can have the internal chaos tamed. 1086 00:38:39,583 --> 00:38:41,352 The only way we find meaning 1087 00:38:41,352 --> 00:38:43,054 and purpose is through movement. 1088 00:38:43,054 --> 00:38:45,289 So finding functional movement that works for you, 1089 00:38:45,289 --> 00:38:47,958 whether it's in the gym, whether it's, running, 1090 00:38:47,958 --> 00:38:49,927 whether it's, Pilates or 1091 00:38:49,927 --> 00:38:51,262 whatever, or some combination 1092 00:38:51,262 --> 00:38:53,898 thereof, movement and meaning are linked. 1093 00:38:53,898 --> 00:38:55,966 The more you move, the more you'll find meaning. 1094 00:38:55,966 --> 00:38:58,235 And when you're depressed 1095 00:38:58,235 --> 00:39:00,805 and when you're angry and when you're frustrated, 1096 00:39:01,839 --> 00:39:04,108 like, I'm going through some stuff as a parent right now. 1097 00:39:04,108 --> 00:39:07,878 I got up this morning 1098 00:39:07,878 --> 00:39:09,714 and it was really cold, and I didn't want to. 1099 00:39:09,714 --> 00:39:10,581 I mean, I'm not as good 1100 00:39:10,581 --> 00:39:10,915 a shape 1101 00:39:10,915 --> 00:39:12,316 as these young cadets around here, 1102 00:39:12,316 --> 00:39:14,352 but I got out and I did my functional movement, 1103 00:39:14,352 --> 00:39:16,120 and it was like eight degrees. Yeah. 1104 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,155 But as I did, I started to find clarity 1105 00:39:18,155 --> 00:39:21,158 and I started to find answers that were embodied, 1106 00:39:21,625 --> 00:39:22,626 that got out of my head. 1107 00:39:22,626 --> 00:39:25,196 And I got back into me, and I realized some things 1108 00:39:25,196 --> 00:39:27,531 that I can do as a dad, and that means a lot. 1109 00:39:27,531 --> 00:39:29,934 And I would not have done that if I laid in bed. 1110 00:39:31,035 --> 00:39:39,343 For the remainder of the podcast, Scott and I discuss why our struggles can become our most generous leadership tools. 1111 00:39:39,343 --> 00:39:41,245 So.... Keep Listening! 1112 00:39:41,245 --> 00:39:43,981 One [topic] that we hadn't gotten to yet 1113 00:39:43,981 --> 00:39:46,283 is being generous with your scars. 1114 00:39:46,283 --> 00:39:47,785 Can you talk about that a little? Yeah. 1115 00:39:47,785 --> 00:39:49,120 I've got a book coming out on that on 1116 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,390 May 12th of 2026 called “The Generosity of Scars,” 1117 00:39:53,190 --> 00:39:56,727 and it's my second book in my leadership trilogy. 1118 00:39:56,727 --> 00:39:58,529 The first one was Nobody's Coming to Save You, 1119 00:39:58,529 --> 00:39:59,997 and it's about rooftop leadership 1120 00:39:59,997 --> 00:40:01,565 and human connection and the iceberg 1121 00:40:01,565 --> 00:40:03,033 and the human operating system that we've talked 1122 00:40:03,033 --> 00:40:06,837 about this book drills into so much that I do. 1123 00:40:06,837 --> 00:40:08,139 It's on storytelling, 1124 00:40:08,139 --> 00:40:10,908 whether it's helping veterans cope with trauma. 1125 00:40:10,908 --> 00:40:12,943 The plays that I've written or, 1126 00:40:12,943 --> 00:40:13,210 you know, 1127 00:40:13,210 --> 00:40:16,514

congressional testimony or, teaching in corporate America, 1128 00:40:16,847 --> 00:40:18,549 it's all it's all storytelling. 1129 00:40:18,549 --> 00:40:19,984 And the reason is very simple. 1130 00:40:19,984 --> 00:40:23,788 Going back to the science, the brain, with its mandate 1131 00:40:23,788 --> 00:40:26,724 to make sense of the world, does so through storytelling. 1132 00:40:26,724 --> 00:40:29,760 The brain uses storytelling to make sense of things. 1133 00:40:30,127 --> 00:40:32,062 I've been doing it for a hundred thousand years. 1134 00:40:32,062 --> 00:40:34,832 The brain is, you know, it's a metaphorical pattern 1135 00:40:34,832 --> 00:40:35,533 matching organ. 1136 00:40:35,533 --> 00:40:38,202 It uses metaphor and pattern and story to make sense. 1137 00:40:38,202 --> 00:40:41,205 And so it tells itself a story. 1138 00:40:41,272 --> 00:40:42,873 And so we've lost 1139 00:40:42,873 --> 00:40:43,607 so much of 1140 00:40:43,607 --> 00:40:44,775 our storytelling acumen 1141 00:40:44,775 --> 00:40:47,778 in the tip of the iceberg transactional world. 1142 00:40:47,778 --> 00:40:48,979 It's become PowerPoint. 1143 00:40:48,979 --> 00:40:50,648 It's become slide decks. 1144 00:40:50,648 --> 00:40:52,183 It's become short form communications 1145 00:40:52,183 --> 00:40:53,751 with very little context. 1146 00:40:53,751 --> 00:40:54,018 Yeah. 1147 00:40:54,018 --> 00:40:57,021 And so stories 1148 00:40:57,188 --> 00:41:00,324 actually are what the brain uses to make sense of things. 1149 00:41:00,324 --> 00:41:02,460 And the cool thing is there's so much recent 1150 00:41:02,460 --> 00:41:06,397 neuroscience out on actually how story affects the brain. 1151 00:41:06,730 --> 00:41:08,165 What what are the elements 1152 00:41:08,165 --> 00:41:09,867 of a story, what what's the sequence? 1153 00:41:09,867 --> 00:41:12,069 If you understand that, man, 1154 00:41:12,069 --> 00:41:14,238 you can you can own just about any room 1155 00:41:14,238 --> 00:41:15,806 you go into just by using 1156 00:41:15,806 --> 00:41:16,974 narrative competence, 1157 00:41:16,974 --> 00:41:19,410 the use of purposeful storytelling in real time. 1158 00:41:19,410 --> 00:41:22,546 So the generosity of scars, if that, 1159 00:41:23,047 --> 00:41:25,349 if that impact of story is true. 1160 00:41:25,349 --> 00:41:28,219 The approach that I use, I did a Ted talk on it. 1161 00:41:28,219 --> 00:41:29,353 I'll send you the link to it too. 1162 00:41:29,353 --> 00:41:31,489 Yeah, but oh, I think I have it. 1163 00:41:31,489 --> 00:41:32,623 I did with your bio. 1164 00:41:32,623 --> 00:41:35,326 So the idea is that we all one of the things 1165 00:41:35,326 --> 00:41:36,760 that we go through in life is struggle. 1166 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,196 There's no getting around it. It's a biological necessity. 1167 00:41:39,196 --> 00:41:40,965 Well, the cool thing is 1168 00:41:40,965 --> 00:41:43,601 the way story works is any story 1169 00:41:43,601 --> 00:41:46,170 throughout history is a story of struggle. 1170 00:41:46,170 --> 00:41:50,307 Odysseus, Martin Luther King, you know, in our own lives, 1171 00:41:50,307 --> 00:41:51,575 because our brain uses story. 1172 00:41:51,575 --> 00:41:53,477 It's always starts with a pivotal moment 1173 00:41:53,477 --> 00:41:55,346 or an inciting incident that happens to us. 1174 00:41:55,346 --> 00:41:56,847 And then we go through struggle, 1175 00:41:56,847 --> 00:41:58,349 and then we overcome that struggle 1176 00:41:58,349 --> 00:41:59,650 and we find resolution. 1177 00:41:59,650 --> 00:42:03,153 We may not meet our goals, but we're still on this earth. 1178 00:42:03,153 --> 00:42:03,921 And we learn things like, 1179 00:42:03,921 --> 00:42:06,290 I didn't graduate Special Forces 1180 00:42:06,290 --> 00:42:08,859 the first two times I went through struggle. 1181 00:42:08,859 --> 00:42:12,496 But on the other side of that, you know, I learned things. 1182 00:42:12,496 --> 00:42:17,067 And that's called struggle to resolution if we as leaders. 1183 00:42:17,067 --> 00:42:18,202 Okay. So hold on a second. 1184 00:42:18,202 --> 00:42:20,738 So there was, I want to highlight this a little bit 1185 00:42:20,738 --> 00:42:21,939 because I think it's important 1186 00:42:23,407 --> 00:42:25,809 you can succeed. 1187 00:42:25,809 --> 00:42:26,944 In other words 1188 00:42:26,944 --> 00:42:28,679 because you're coming to a resolution, 1189 00:42:28,679 --> 00:42:31,115 even if you didn't get the prize. 1190 00:42:31,115 --> 00:42:32,316 That's kind of what I'm getting at. 1191 00:42:32,316 --> 00:42:34,818 So you didn't graduate from the school? 1192 00:42:34,818 --> 00:42:38,188 Yeah, but you came out and came away with some lessons. 1193 00:42:38,188 --> 00:42:39,823 So I think that 1194 00:42:39,823 --> 00:42:42,993 that would be a great lesson for some of our cadets 1195 00:42:42,993 --> 00:42:43,561 to learn, 1196 00:42:43,561 --> 00:42:48,132 because sometimes you didn't get the A in the class. 1197 00:42:48,299 --> 00:42:49,767 But what did you learn? 1198 00:42:49,767 --> 00:42:53,671 So yeah, learning to find those resolutions 1199 00:42:54,705 --> 00:42:58,409 I think can help you either go back to the same problem 1200 00:42:58,409 --> 00:43:02,279 and get that a or get that that certificate. 1201 00:43:03,380 --> 00:43:06,417 But now you coming at it from a position of 1202 00:43:06,417 --> 00:43:09,420 knowledge, experience and maybe power. Yes. 1203 00:43:09,620 --> 00:43:10,988 Here's you're exactly right. 1204 00:43:10,988 --> 00:43:13,023 I mean it's not only 1205 00:43:13,023 --> 00:43:13,991 if you got this, 1206 00:43:13,991 --> 00:43:16,193 if you had a struggle, you can still find it, 1207 00:43:16,193 --> 00:43:18,329 especially if you've had struggle. 1208 00:43:18,329 --> 00:43:20,631 The reality is we've all had struggle. 1209 00:43:20,631 --> 00:43:23,500

That's why nowadays it's in this transactional world. 1210 00:43:23,500 --> 00:43:25,636 You watch these leaders on YouTube 1211 00:43:25,636 --> 00:43:26,804 and you know, these 1212 00:43:26,804 --> 00:43:29,807 these different clips and it's all the same. 1213 00:43:30,074 --> 00:43:32,376 They're always, here's five ways to be great. 1214 00:43:32,376 --> 00:43:33,677 Like me. 1215 00:43:33,677 --> 00:43:35,879 And when you watch that, it's unwatchable 1216 00:43:35,879 --> 00:43:38,415 because what you think is, well, I could never do that. 1217 00:43:38,415 --> 00:43:40,985 Or you question the motive of that individual, 1218 00:43:40,985 --> 00:43:43,187 you're like, okay, what's really going on here? 1219 00:43:43,187 --> 00:43:44,154 Right? 1220 00:43:44,154 --> 00:43:46,423 But if you've ever listened to Lieutenant General 1221 00:43:46,423 --> 00:43:47,758 Furness talk, he and I went to the Air 1222 00:43:47,758 --> 00:43:48,626 Command staff culture. 1223 00:43:48,626 --> 00:43:51,028 I've known him for a lot of years. Yeah. 1224 00:43:51,028 --> 00:43:53,564 You listen that guy talk, you look at him and you think 1225 00:43:54,698 --> 00:43:57,167 that dude is just the epitome of success. 1226 00:43:57,167 --> 00:43:59,737 He's, you know, he's literally dressed to the nines. 1227 00:43:59,737 --> 00:44:01,138 He looks like the quintessential marine. 1228 00:44:01,138 --> 00:44:02,272 I could never be him. 1229 00:44:02,272 --> 00:44:03,807 But if you listen to him talk 1230 00:44:03,807 --> 00:44:05,109 and you listen to the struggles 1231 00:44:05,109 --> 00:44:07,511 he's been through and you're like, 1232 00:44:07,511 --> 00:44:10,047 Well, he too is generous with those. 1233 00:44:10,047 --> 00:44:12,116 He's generous with his scars. He is. Yes. 1234 00:44:12,116 --> 00:44:14,018 And so the generosity of scars. 1235 00:44:14,018 --> 00:44:15,386 It took me forever to answer your question. 1236 00:44:15,386 --> 00:44:16,487 I'm sorry. That's all right. 1237 00:44:16,487 --> 00:44:19,123 Repurposing our struggles in the service of others 1238 00:44:19,123 --> 00:44:20,491 through the stories that we tell. 1239 00:44:20,491 --> 00:44:21,158 Yeah, right. 1240 00:44:21,158 --> 00:44:22,760 That's what the generosity of scars means. 1241 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,229 And if you listen to a guy like General Furness 1242 00:44:25,229 --> 00:44:27,164 or another buddy of mine, Will Lyles, 1243 00:44:27,164 --> 00:44:30,100 who went here, you know, and he's a VMI graduate, 1244 00:44:30,100 --> 00:44:32,670 I served with him in Afghanistan. He lost both his legs. 1245 00:44:33,737 --> 00:44:34,138 And if I 1246 00:44:34,138 --> 00:44:37,341 have if I can find the link to his breakout session, I'll. 1247 00:44:37,341 --> 00:44:39,843 Put it okay. Please do. Yeah yeah watch that. 1248 00:44:39,843 --> 00:44:42,846 But but this is a guy who oh he starts with his struggle. 1249 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:44,581 Yes, but but look at what he's. 1250 00:44:44,581 --> 00:44:45,783 Look at what he's found. 1251 00:44:45,783 --> 00:44:47,718 Look at the resolution that he's found. 1252 00:44:47,718 --> 00:44:50,554 And so the good news for everybody listening to 1253 00:44:50,554 --> 00:44:52,856 this is the more scuffed up you are, 1254 00:44:52,856 --> 00:44:53,657 you know, the two best. 1255 00:44:53,657 --> 00:44:56,460 I call them scar stories. 1256 00:44:56,460 --> 00:44:58,062 The two best scar stories in the world. 1257 00:44:58,062 --> 00:44:59,129 The second best one is the one 1258 00:44:59,129 --> 00:45:00,030 you don't want to tell others. 1259 00:45:00,030 --> 00:45:01,265 And in the very best ones, 1260 00:45:01,265 --> 00:45:02,933 the one you don't want to tell yourself. 1261 00:45:02,933 --> 00:45:04,635 And it feels counterintuitive. 1262 00:45:04,635 --> 00:45:06,003 It feels like you're exposed. 1263 00:45:06,003 --> 00:45:07,371 It feels like you're vulnerable. 1264 00:45:07,371 --> 00:45:10,708 But the reality is that people locate themselves 1265 00:45:10,708 --> 00:45:12,943 when you talk about your struggles as a leader. 1266 00:45:14,978 --> 00:45:16,747 People locate themselves in your story. 1267 00:45:16,747 --> 00:45:18,248 It is a trust accelerant. 1268 00:45:18,248 --> 00:45:19,883 They realize that, oh, 1269 00:45:19,883 --> 00:45:22,252 she's been through what I've been through. Okay. 1270 00:45:22,252 --> 00:45:24,421 And now I actually identify with you. 1271 00:45:24,421 --> 00:45:26,423 You are relatable as a person. 1272 00:45:26,423 --> 00:45:27,658 And now the armor comes off. 1273 00:45:27,658 --> 00:45:29,893 Now I'm getting ready to listen, right? 1274 00:45:29,893 --> 00:45:30,327 And I 1275 00:45:30,327 --> 00:45:33,130 what it's called, it's called narrative transportation. 1276 00:45:33,130 --> 00:45:36,133 When I locate myself in your story, that looks good. 1277 00:45:36,266 --> 00:45:39,236 Right now, I'm actually in your story. 1278 00:45:39,603 --> 00:45:41,805 And now the coolest thing that can happen. 1279 00:45:41,805 --> 00:45:43,440 And this is where the generosity of scars 1280 00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:44,641 payload happens. 1281 00:45:44,641 --> 00:45:47,578 And I want people to maybe even write this down 1282 00:45:47,578 --> 00:45:50,647 is what happens next is called autobiographical listening. 1283 00:45:51,081 --> 00:45:51,315 Right. 1284 00:45:51,315 --> 00:45:52,616 So this is where like when I'm 1285 00:45:52,616 --> 00:45:55,352 talking about small town in North Carolina, 1286 00:45:55,352 --> 00:45:57,488 you think about apex, North Carolina, 1287 00:45:57,488 --> 00:46:00,491 when I'm talking about my dad's battle with cancer. 1288 00:46:00,624 --> 00:46:02,192 You're thinking about your experience. Me? 1289 00:46:02,192 --> 00:46:03,994 I'm talking about my son 1290 00:46:03,994 --> 00:46:06,063 and the parenting challenge I'm going

through. 1291 00:46:06,063 --> 00:46:06,830 What was the first thing you 1292 00:46:06,830 --> 00:46:09,066 you got a smile on your face and you're like, yep. Yeah. 1293 00:46:09,066 --> 00:46:11,068 That's called autobiographical listening. 1294 00:46:11,068 --> 00:46:12,369 When you locate yourself 1295 00:46:12,369 --> 00:46:14,872 in the safety of someone else's story, 1296 00:46:14,872 --> 00:46:16,006 and you can process 1297 00:46:16,006 --> 00:46:19,009 your own lived experience in the safety of their story, 1298 00:46:19,009 --> 00:46:20,944 it's the most generous thing a leader can do. 1299 00:46:20,944 --> 00:46:21,845 That's really good. 1300 00:46:21,845 --> 00:46:24,314 I like that that you can find the safety 1301 00:46:24,314 --> 00:46:25,382 because we talk a lot. 1302 00:46:25,382 --> 00:46:27,217 You know, nowadays we talk about safe 1303 00:46:27,217 --> 00:46:29,319 spaces, create safe spaces. Yep. 1304 00:46:29,319 --> 00:46:31,088 And how interesting is that, 1305 00:46:31,088 --> 00:46:33,357 that you can be completely vulnerable. 1306 00:46:33,357 --> 00:46:33,724 Yeah. 1307 00:46:33,724 --> 00:46:36,093 And exposed, if you will, 1308 00:46:36,093 --> 00:46:39,229 by and create a safe space for someone else. 1309 00:46:39,229 --> 00:46:39,563 Yeah. 1310 00:46:39,563 --> 00:46:41,632 And let me, let me add one other thing 1311 00:46:41,632 --> 00:46:44,168 on the vulnerability thing because this comes up a lot 1312 00:46:44,168 --> 00:46:44,568 and I 1313 00:46:44,568 --> 00:46:47,538 talk to a lot of Green Berets and special operators who, 1314 00:46:47,538 --> 00:46:49,439 for obvious reasons, have a problem 1315 00:46:49,439 --> 00:46:52,142 with the word vulnerability, because by definition, 1316 00:46:52,142 --> 00:46:54,645 if you're a door kicker, if you're a coward, you 1317 00:46:54,645 --> 00:46:56,547 if you're being vulnerable by by 1318 00:46:56,547 --> 00:46:58,248 design is a dangerous thing. 1319 00:46:58,248 --> 00:47:00,083 Like if I was vulnerable to that elder. 1320 00:47:00,083 --> 00:47:03,921 So let me offer a term, a phrase that I find works 1321 00:47:03,921 --> 00:47:04,922 very well. 1322 00:47:04,922 --> 00:47:08,125 And it's instead of making vulnerability 1323 00:47:08,458 --> 00:47:09,726 your endgame when you get up 1324 00:47:09,726 --> 00:47:11,028 in front of people or whatever. 1325 00:47:11,028 --> 00:47:15,465 Use relatability because humans are social creatures. 1326 00:47:15,465 --> 00:47:17,000 We are wired to be social. 1327 00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,236 We're wired to be relatable. 1328 00:47:19,236 --> 00:47:22,773 That's why when Will Lyles talks about his upbringing 1329 00:47:22,773 --> 00:47:25,242 and his struggles, you relate to him. 1330 00:47:25,242 --> 00:47:27,477 He's not being vulnerable, he's being relatable. 1331 00:47:27,477 --> 00:47:29,313 And here's the difference. 1332 00:47:29,313 --> 00:47:32,816 If your intention is

to relate to the other party 1333 00:47:32,816 --> 00:47:35,285 and then relate to you, vulnerability 1334 00:47:35,285 --> 00:47:37,020 will come alongside you in or not 1335 00:47:37,020 --> 00:47:39,022 in an appropriate way, right? 1336 00:47:39,022 --> 00:47:40,257 So in other words, you know, 1337 00:47:40,257 --> 00:47:41,992 oversharing or whatever you want to call it. 1338 00:47:41,992 --> 00:47:45,596 If I'm going to talk to a room of corporate bankers 1339 00:47:46,230 --> 00:47:49,466 about leadership, and I'm going to tell a story 1340 00:47:49,466 --> 00:47:52,469 about my mental health in leadership, 1341 00:47:52,736 --> 00:47:55,505 and, you know, standing in a closet with a pistol, 1342 00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:57,474 my level of 1343 00:47:57,474 --> 00:48:00,477 vulnerability with that room of corporate bankers 1344 00:48:00,477 --> 00:48:02,012 is likely going to be different 1345 00:48:02,012 --> 00:48:04,348 than if I'm sitting in a room full of combat 1346 00:48:04,348 --> 00:48:07,184 veterans who have endured severe trauma. 1347 00:48:07,184 --> 00:48:07,851 You see what I mean? 1348 00:48:07,851 --> 00:48:10,854 Yeah, it's contextually appropriate both times. 1349 00:48:10,888 --> 00:48:12,990 And if if I just say, well, I'm gonna be vulnerable, 1350 00:48:12,990 --> 00:48:14,157 you know, I might say something 1351 00:48:14,157 --> 00:48:15,859 in that room of corporate bankers 1352 00:48:15,859 --> 00:48:18,228 that could actually be harmful. 1353 00:48:18,228 --> 00:48:18,595 Right. 1354 00:48:18,595 --> 00:48:22,165 And so I've just found that relate ability as my intention 1355 00:48:22,532 --> 00:48:24,568 will always ensure that I'm vulnerable 1356 00:48:24,568 --> 00:48:26,703 as a byproduct of being relatable. Right. 1357 00:48:26,703 --> 00:48:27,304 That's the result. 1358 00:48:27,304 --> 00:48:29,673 And it's appropriate for the context that I'm in. 1359 00:48:29,673 --> 00:48:30,507 Yeah. Yeah. 1360 00:48:30,507 --> 00:48:33,010 Well context is everything I like 1361 00:48:33,010 --> 00:48:35,212 my saying is context is king. 1362 00:48:35,212 --> 00:48:36,079 If you don't know. 1363 00:48:36,079 --> 00:48:38,515 So true, so true. 1364 00:48:38,515 --> 00:48:39,716 Yeah, that's a good saying. 1365 00:48:39,716 --> 00:48:42,853 Yeah I, I've always operate not everybody appreciates it. 1366 00:48:42,853 --> 00:48:44,121 But I appreciate what you said 1367 00:48:44,121 --> 00:48:47,691 earlier was like when it was either you or Kim that said, 1368 00:48:48,358 --> 00:48:50,961 someone that doesn't appreciate context, 1369 00:48:50,961 --> 00:48:52,996 it's because it's going up against their narrative. 1370 00:48:52,996 --> 00:48:53,730 They will. 1371 00:48:53,730 --> 00:48:54,531 It's because they have 1372 00:48:54,531 --> 00:48:56,667 a preexisting, dogmatic, rigid narrative 1373 00:48:56,667 --> 00:48:58,001 that they don't want to abandon 1374 00:48:58,001 --> 00:49:00,437 anyone who is opposed to context. 1375 00:49:00,437 --> 00:49:01,705 Think about that. Yeah. 1376 00:49:01,705 --> 00:49:02,906 Anyone who is opposed to 1377 00:49:02,906 --> 00:49:04,207 I mean, I'll have this argument with anybody 1378 00:49:04,207 --> 00:49:05,609 who'd like to have it, but like, 1379 00:49:05,609 --> 00:49:07,811 show me how being opposed to context 1380 00:49:07,811 --> 00:49:09,646 is anything other than dogmatic. 1381 00:49:09,646 --> 00:49:11,648 Yeah. Or rigid. Right. Exactly. 1382 00:49:11,648 --> 00:49:13,016 Yeah. I don't want context. 1383 00:49:13,016 --> 00:49:15,218 And humans are actually not designed to be 1384 00:49:15,218 --> 00:49:17,120 rigid, were designed for context, 1385 00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:18,388 were designed for that. 1386 00:49:18,388 --> 00:49:20,824 That's what Doctor Ivan says is that's one of the problems 1387 00:49:20,824 --> 00:49:22,359 that we're experiencing today, is 1388 00:49:22,359 --> 00:49:24,962 we have abandoned the context. Yeah. 1389 00:49:24,962 --> 00:49:26,630 You know, our two dimensional world 1390 00:49:26,630 --> 00:49:27,931 that we live in with the dopamine 1391 00:49:27,931 --> 00:49:31,868 dispensers that we walk around with, have, have obliviated 1392 00:49:31,902 --> 00:49:33,503 context. Yeah. 1393 00:49:33,503 --> 00:49:36,506 Well, it's throughout our talk today, 1394 00:49:36,540 --> 00:49:38,075 you mentioned at least a handful. 1395 00:49:38,075 --> 00:49:40,711 I've been quickly scribbling. Look at all your notes. 1396 00:49:40,711 --> 00:49:42,679 I know I just take these notes, 1397 00:49:42,679 --> 00:49:43,380 because I want to put 1398 00:49:43,380 --> 00:49:46,383 the Will Lyle's link in our discussion. 1399 00:49:46,450 --> 00:49:48,986 Wanted to make sure we touched on peer leadership, 1400 00:49:48,986 --> 00:49:50,821 which we did, which was really good. Yeah. 1401 00:49:50,821 --> 00:49:52,055 So you mentioned some of the books. 1402 00:49:52,055 --> 00:49:54,191 I'll just reread them. “Getting Ahead” 1403 00:49:54,191 --> 00:49:56,159 “Never Split the Difference” 1404 00:49:56,159 --> 00:49:59,062 “Human Givens” 1405 00:49:59,062 --> 00:50:01,865 Givens. Givens. “Human Givens.” 1406 00:50:01,865 --> 00:50:03,567 “Storyproof” 1407 00:50:05,535 --> 00:50:06,636 I think that was. 1408 00:50:06,636 --> 00:50:07,471 And then your book, 1409 00:50:07,471 --> 00:50:09,306 “The Generosity of Scars,” that's coming. 1410 00:50:09,306 --> 00:50:11,141 Up and “Nobody's Coming to Save You” is already. 1411 00:50:11,141 --> 00:50:13,143 “Nobody's Coming to Save You” and then, 1412 00:50:13,143 --> 00:50:15,512 “Operation Pineapple Express” 1413 00:50:15,512 --> 00:50:16,780 I oh, by the way, the book is not getting ahead. 1414 00:50:16,780 --> 00:50:18,915 It's “Getting More,” by Stuart Barnett. Okay. 1415 00:50:20,217 --> 00:50:24,121 But this thing he calls the, Doctor Kindle 1416 00:50:24,121 -->

00:50:28,225 haven calls the MSM the make sense mandate. 1417 00:50:28,692 --> 00:50:30,060 So the brain think about that. 1418 00:50:30,060 --> 00:50:32,362 It has a mandate to make sense of things. 1419 00:50:32,362 --> 00:50:34,231 And that explains so much. 1420 00:50:34,231 --> 00:50:35,565 You know, like my friend perk, 1421 00:50:35,565 --> 00:50:37,034 she was blown up in Afghanistan. 1422 00:50:37,034 --> 00:50:38,101 She was blown out of her vehicle. 1423 00:50:38,101 --> 00:50:40,637 500ft, 500ft cut in half. 1424 00:50:40,637 --> 00:50:42,039 She could see her pelvis. 1425 00:50:42,039 --> 00:50:44,141 She was the only survivor in a truck. 1426 00:50:44,141 --> 00:50:46,376 And so for years 1427 00:50:46,376 --> 00:50:49,579 she would write in a journal that only she saw. 1428 00:50:49,713 --> 00:50:51,448 She survived. Oh my. God. Oh, yeah. 1429 00:50:51,448 --> 00:50:52,115 She's one of my. 1430 00:50:52,115 --> 00:50:53,283 I've thought one of the ones. 1431 00:50:53,283 --> 00:50:55,385 She's getting ready to do a TED talk soon. 1432 00:50:55,385 --> 00:50:57,587 She's not trained her in storytelling, 1433 00:50:57,587 --> 00:50:59,723 but the point here is that every day 1434 00:50:59,723 --> 00:51:01,391 she would write in that journal of hers, 1435 00:51:01,391 --> 00:51:02,459 and she wouldn't show it to anybody. 1436 00:51:02,459 --> 00:51:03,794 For ten years, she hid behind her 1437 00:51:03,794 --> 00:51:06,196 walls at home, self-isolated, 1438 00:51:06,196 --> 00:51:08,698 and she was trying to make sense of that day. 1439 00:51:08,698 --> 00:51:09,966 Over and over and over, 1440 00:51:09,966 --> 00:51:11,501 she would write the same story. 1441 00:51:11,501 --> 00:51:13,537 And it wasn't until she got out and she told the 1442 00:51:13,537 --> 00:51:14,504 story in the world 1443 00:51:15,505 --> 00:51:17,707 that other people who'd been in combat heard the story. 1444 00:51:17,707 --> 00:51:19,376 They're like, perk, 1445 00:51:19,376 --> 00:51:20,143 you know, think of, 1446 00:51:20,143 --> 00:51:21,111 have you thought about this 1447 00:51:21,111 --> 00:51:22,245 and have you thought about that? 1448 00:51:22,245 --> 00:51:23,346 And then, you know, 1449 00:51:23,346 --> 00:51:24,714 and then she would listen to other people's 1450 00:51:24,714 --> 00:51:27,717 stories of guilt and she's like, oh my God, 1451 00:51:27,784 --> 00:51:28,552 it's relatable. 1452 00:51:28,552 --> 00:51:30,053 It's totally relatable. 1453 00:51:30,053 --> 00:51:33,023 And so now she tells that story to high schools. 1454 00:51:33,023 --> 00:51:33,356 Yeah, 1455 00:51:33,356 --> 00:51:35,425 she tells that story to kids who are blaming themselves 1456 00:51:35,425 --> 00:51:36,960 for stuff that they went through. 1457 00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:39,563 The point here is that absolutely, 1458 00:51:39,563 --> 00:51:41,231 we're going to try to make sense of things 1459 00:51:41,231 --> 00:51:42,599

in ways that don't make sense. 1460 00:51:42,599 --> 00:51:44,468 We have a mandate to do so. 1461 00:51:44,468 --> 00:51:44,968 That's why 1462 00:51:44,968 --> 00:51:48,071 storytelling and human connection are so important. 1463 00:51:48,405 --> 00:51:51,374 And I think 1464 00:51:51,775 --> 00:51:53,877 it's not the stories that we tell in 1465 00:51:53,877 --> 00:51:55,178 these tough times that we live in. 1466 00:51:55,178 --> 00:51:57,314 It's the stories we ask to hear. 1467 00:51:57,314 --> 00:51:58,882 You know, it's when you can say to 1468 00:51:58,882 --> 00:52:00,484 someone will tell me more about that. 1469 00:52:01,985 --> 00:52:03,120 How how did that happen. 1470 00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:05,856 What what was the impact that you felt from that. 1471 00:52:05,856 --> 00:52:07,424 You know like and I'm not telling 1472 00:52:07,424 --> 00:52:11,595 to be trite or to be like, you know, manipulative open. 1473 00:52:11,828 --> 00:52:12,796 That's right. 1474 00:52:12,796 --> 00:52:15,465 And it lets the other party respond in narrative. 1475 00:52:15,465 --> 00:52:17,734 And guess what happens since making 1476 00:52:17,734 --> 00:52:20,036 in a way that that person's never done before. 1477 00:52:20,036 --> 00:52:20,203 Yeah. 1478 00:52:20,203 --> 00:52:23,173 Even just telling a story in the in it's of abuse 1479 00:52:23,306 --> 00:52:26,710 and I've seen it and I've been party to it or deep guilt. 1480 00:52:27,644 --> 00:52:28,111 That's right. 1481 00:52:28,111 --> 00:52:29,312 And but once you voice 1482 00:52:29,312 --> 00:52:31,915 that story into a control now you have to be careful. 1483 00:52:31,915 --> 00:52:33,817 Like obviously if there's deep trauma here 1484 00:52:33,817 --> 00:52:35,452 or something like that, 1485 00:52:35,452 --> 00:52:36,786 you want to make sure that there's 1486 00:52:36,786 --> 00:52:38,655 a clinician or someone present, 1487 00:52:38,655 --> 00:52:39,956 you know, it's good to listen 1488 00:52:39,956 --> 00:52:42,225 to someone's story, but if you hear like it's 1489 00:52:42,225 --> 00:52:44,861 if you're listening to someone's story 1490 00:52:44,861 --> 00:52:47,631 in the dorms or whatever, and it feels like it's white 1491 00:52:47,631 --> 00:52:51,067 hot with that person, like there's like it's like a stove 1492 00:52:51,501 --> 00:52:52,903 and they and they, there's a, there's 1493 00:52:52,903 --> 00:52:55,972 a visceral physical reaction that they, they're almost like 1494 00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:58,375 you can tell that they're, they're, 1495 00:52:58,375 --> 00:53:00,844 they're almost outside their body as they tell it. Yeah. 1496 00:53:00,844 --> 00:53:02,879 That that person needs to talk to somebody. 1497 00:53:02,879 --> 00:53:04,414 Yeah a professional professional. 1498 00:53:04,414 --> 00:53:04,814 That's right. 1499 00:53:04,814 --> 00:53:08,084 It's great to listen but always have an eye for that. 1500 00:53:08,084 --> 00:53:11,321 Like if it looks white hot as you listen to that story 1501 00:53:11,655 --> 00:53:13,356 and it's like an a loop, 1502 00:53:13,356 --> 00:53:14,191 then they need 1503 00:53:14,191 --> 00:53:16,026 to talk to somebody and try to get them there. 1504 00:53:16,126 --> 00:53:17,394 Well this has been 1505 00:53:17,394 --> 00:53:17,994 you know, 1506 00:53:17,994 --> 00:53:19,796 every time I have conversations 1507 00:53:19,796 --> 00:53:23,333 with professionals like yourself, just the whole 1508 00:53:23,667 --> 00:53:26,403 conversation is just packed full of great 1509 00:53:26,403 --> 00:53:30,207 words, of wisdom and insights and thank you and meaning. 1510 00:53:30,207 --> 00:53:32,943 So thank you so much for your time today. 1511 00:53:32,976 --> 00:53:35,412 My pleasure. Thank you. Appreciate it. All right.