النص الكامل لحلقة Clarity in Complexity: Leading When There Is No Playbook with Colleen Brown

find or to observe or figure where can I learn these things that were kind of basic in my other friends' households. ⁓ And so not having that kind of leadership in the household definitely impacted my ⁓ ability to read the room. My ability to do what needs to be done, it had to get done. ⁓ Later on, my stepmother, my dad remarried, ⁓ was quite absent because her daughter ⁓ got non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. And so she was at, you know, in the hospital extensively. Well, big family, there were 10 kids. And so I was the oldest in the middle, but I was the oldest girl. So ⁓ somebody needed to go shopping for groceries. So. that somebody became me and that was before I could even drive. So it was navigating all of that because my dad traveled for work. We all kind of took care of ourselves, but it was figuring out how to take care of things in the household. How do you do laundry? That was like 20, I think it was 20 loads of laundry a week. That probably would have been more today, but back then it was about 20 loads of laundry a week. And how do you do all of that and still get good grades and get scholarships you need to, to get into school? So. the absence of leadership and me trying to step in and sometimes it wasn't possible for me to step in. I couldn't take somebody to the doctor. I wasn't old enough to drive. People had to be called in, neighbors, grandparents who were in the distance. So it was tricky, to say the least. Ty Hammond: Well, I just want to offer, I'd be, first of all, thank you so much for sharing and I'd be remiss to share equally that I also lost my mother when I was four. She was 26 years old. ⁓ And so, you very much. And there's so much, it's so interesting. I kind of knew even before, in what you were sharing, is you're talking about the absence and the ways that that Colleen: Wow. So you do relate, yeah. Ty Hammond: calls calls one forward ⁓ calls one up so early so early Colleen: Right. And especially when you don't even have the title, right? You know, you're not the boss, but you need things to get done. You need help with all the dishes. You need help making the house work and run. And people need to get out the door to school and all of that needed to happen. So you're right. There were 10 kids. Ty Hammond: And you had siblings as well. So taking ⁓ a big position of leadership as it's called, it's like identifying the need. I think to be honest and not to take too much time here, but the thing that you had said, which really struck me was, and I feel like this is such a ⁓ necessary aspect of leadership, of being human in general, is just like the paying attention and studying. what's actually happening so that we can have the vision to respond. What's happening there? Colleen: Yeah, yeah, and know when you're old enough or you can see it clearly enough to know when you're in over your head, which was a lesson I learned quite early. Ty Hammond: I'm curious to have you maybe expand just a little bit on that. I don't actually think that I got that lesson as early as I would have maybe liked. Colleen: Hahaha! ⁓ it would, you know, show up in little things like, you know, ironing. I didn't know how to iron, but somebody had to. And so, yeah, I ruined a few, a lot actually, shirts and whatnot, because I never knew that turning it all the way up was not what you're supposed to do. Synthetic stick to iron. you know, a trial by fire, if you will. ⁓ I never really thought about who had the checkbook when you went to the grocery store. So, you know, my first round was convincing the gal who actually knew my grandmother that I was good for it. And yeah, I didn't have a check to give her the fairway. So that was clearly in on my head that I realized I didn't know everything I thought I knew, right? When I walked in the door and being humble enough to find a way to work my way through it. And then move on. My brother was wherever he was, probably at the comic book store or something. He's the one who drove me. But yeah, I mean, just knowing how to make it all happen and, you know, when to back out and how to be laugh at yourself, I guess. Ty Hammond: That's needed, I'll tell you, in my experience. ⁓ You know, I'm curious to hear how the lessons of such a formative experience might work their way out in the rest of our conversation here. Let me, you know, of course in this podcast, we're exploring the essence of leadership, true leadership. That's gonna mean different things to different people. What does true leadership mean to you? What makes a true leader in your eyes? Colleen: You know, there's so many definitions of leader, but for me, very specifically, how I think that true leadership is the ability to create or identify the clarity to move forward when there isn't a clear path, when you don't know what's coming next, when you're not certain, but you still have to lead. I think that is the hardest thing that leaders don't realize. don't, you know, if you have all the answers, it doesn't take much of a leader. Right? So. Ty Hammond: It's a, I'll just share with you my, ⁓ one of my favorite definitions of it actually comes from at least one interpretation of the etymology of leader, which is an old Nordic word, left, which is to go forth to cross a threshold and to die first, which literally meant into the unknown. I think it was a battlefield reference in this particular case, but still represents that. that willingness to go into the unknown first, to lead into that. Colleen: There's a little Star Trek in you. ⁓ To go where no man has gone before. Ty Hammond: And etymology, for sure. What difference have you seen that make, that willingness to, you know, that clarity and uncertainty? you know, why does that matter? Colleen: Well, you know, you can get charismatic leaders, right? You can get leaders who have a vision and they're just so focused on that vision. You can get all kinds of different kinds of leaders, but ultimately it matters that however you lead, you're

accountable. That you are responsible for the outcome of the complexity, for the outcome of... how you respond to the changing environment. And that's never more true than now because it's all happening and it's all happening so simultaneously and so quickly that we have to reiterate fast. We don't have to wait three months for you know, Pony Express to deliver mail to us, right? I mean, this stuff is happening and it's happening real time. And I think coming out of television and media for me trained me up well to recognize disruption because disruption was fast when I started my career and it's just gotten faster. And as a result, they're more transparent. And so you have really smart people who are really educated, maybe the most educated in history, who now have access to all the information about your organization at their fingertips, arguably, through plot work. I mean, you can ask it anything and find out what's going on all over your organization, let alone every filing. I can ask Chachi BT, what are all my competitors doing in technology? Give me a comparison chart. It's done in 20 seconds, not even that, 10. So I think that the transparency, the information, the education has really stepped up decision-making processes, systems, and the ability for organization to make decisions and to adapt or to be even resilient. Because there is such a thing as ⁓ burnout or I think I saw a podcast the other day on hope burnout. for the millennials or Gen Y where they just don't know how they're going to move forward in life versus, you know, we just dove in because houses were going up and interest rates were going up. So we figured dive in now, buy it now. Little did we know that $100,000 house we were buying back then is now like $600,000. And the income didn't keep up with that commensurately. you know, it takes four times the average income. compared to when I was first buying my house. That's a loss of hope. And so understanding how that is in fact impacting all of the folks in your organization, I think it's the importance of leadership and relating and figuring out you're part of the solution or you're not going to have a workforce. So that's just one thing I think a lot about. basically what I was saying is the pace has ⁓ the ability ⁓ an organization to adapt. Ty Hammond: 100%. And part of what I'm hearing in that, and I think of the true leadership quality of there's the capacity to move forward in uncertainty, to just decide without having that perfect information, because you're never going to have it. You never actually did have it, but now you know that you don't have it. And where does that capacity, OK, I've got to choose that capacity to actually Colleen: Yes. Ty Hammond: to make that choice, to decide. Colleen: And there's a different way of gathering that information these days. ⁓ You know, it used to be a very hierarchical, and now you're seeing a great deal more matrix, remote, distributed workforce. And so how you gather your information, how you listen, like we're doing on Zoom, is very different than how we might listen sitting there face to face in person in your office, for example. And so the world from the way we were built after World War II, for corporations is very different than the world we're in today. And yet we're still built, you know, like with structures in place that still resonate with the way we did things 40 years ago, 50 years ago, 60 years ago. And so maybe even 70. And so today, I think what we need to figure out is how are we going to be built for the future as leaders, as organizations, as decision makers, as workforce. I think this is a huge void and something I get pretty amped up about. I think it's important that we start tackling these issues sooner than later. Ty Hammond: Similarly, I think that question, what is true leadership and what does the leadership look like today that we need is a worthwhile question to stay humble and curious about. So I'm curious to hear from you, of course, all the journey of life and of leadership is shaped by fundamental turning points along the way. Can you share about a time when you realized that your way of leading or living no really longer? Colleen: Right. Ty Hammond: was meeting the demands of work and life and real growth was needed, a turning point in your life. Colleen: You know, there are so many turning points. I always think I'm going to write a book called Nine Lives because I have like nine turning points in life. probably the hardest or the most challenging turning point was when I decided to step away from day-to-day work and move into corporate board work and advisory work, consulting work, if you will. I don't do a lot of consulting. It's really not my strength, but I do really. enjoy ⁓ the work on corporate boards and the advisory work I'm doing with some companies. And what's interesting about that is you move from this incredibly intense environment where you're on 20 hours a day, truly, and oftentimes six and seven days a week, depending on the week. And that structure and that constant pressure and presence in your brain of things to do, checklists, ⁓ that 360 that I'm always working is very different than when you step off of the day to day. And suddenly that structure you miss. And it's the absence of that structure that forces you to start really thinking about meaningful things and not just things you check off your list and not just what's expected of you. Now it's what do you expect of yourself? And so suddenly I think, when I made that decision, I was 53 when I made that decision. It was a lot of introspection, a lot of self-reflection, a lot of understanding that it didn't need to duplicate what I had at home, which I did try to do at first. You know, set it up. had an assistant and I had my desk and you know, I had my books and I was making phone calls and I don't know what I'm doing. Anyway, I think the reality is I realized that work comes in lot of form and fashion. And

for the first time in my life, I got to shape my work according to how I wanted to do it versus how corporate America wanted me to do it. And so that was a big transition. ⁓ Ty Hammond: what do you feel like you had to outgrow or let go of in order to into that next page? And I just say, I literally just got off of a conversation ⁓ with someone who is, you know, and I speak with lots of leaders who are in transition and will move from corporate world into entrepreneurship and consulting role or all of these things. So I think this is a really worthwhile ⁓ thing to explore, but. What did, what do you feel like you really had to outgrow in order to grow into that next phase for yourself? Colleen: Well, in my case, unfortunately, it was hard for me to learn from others. So I kind of needed to learn it myself. And so being an entrepreneur suited my personality, but I didn't like the patience that it took to incrementally grow at such a small scale. Right. And so that was a very different. experience for me and of I've been in corporate America in big corporations for long time where you if you need an attorney it isn't called the attorney it's which one but you know do you need well as you can imagine you know 40 50 attorneys in a big corporation you know what do you need a first amendment attorney versus a you know so you had specialists to be an entrepreneur you're that attorney you're to figure it all out on your own or use a AI to figure it out, which isn't a good idea. You still need that third party to take the insurance responsibility of making that decision, whatever you're doing. But I would say that it was very difficult for me to leave the structure and realize everything is a system, nature, body, ecosystem, because I didn't go into biology for a reason. I don't want to think about that stuff, you know? But now I'm having to think about it because of how you have to take care of yourself and work out because you have no excuse, right? You're free to have your time and use it as you should, not versus not what's demanded of you. So I think the hardest thing for me was ⁓ leaving structure and moving to what I call everything's a system, an ecosystem, which is what panarchy is, by the way. PANARCHY is that whole ecosystem of how things work. Kind like, you you've got anarchy, you've got monarchy, panarchy is the world and how things work. And I found that's where I'm really now understanding that that's my passion is, and it was when I first entered undergraduate school in my political science, my first year thinking, because it was Who Gets the Cookies by Michael Segoe was my favorite textbook. Right? That's like, it's how does it work? Well, that's what I realized. That's what I love finding out. but it took me a lot of years to understand that it's okay to pursue that at this age, and it's okay to pursue that at this stage of life. It's all about how does everything work together and get you thinking about how the system in decision making, in families, in ⁓ the school districts, in life. And it makes it easier not to be so tough on yourself and judgmental on the organization when you realize, you know, it isn't just the leader. isn't just how they're set up. It is a history of how they operate. So recently I saw a documentary by PBS in Minneapolis on the history of law enforcement in the state of Minnesota. It wasn't a structured thing. It was truly who they hired, how they hired them. and then how it worked, not what was on paper, but how it worked through history. It was more enlightening ⁓ to inform me on what happened here in Minneapolis than anything I'd read or seen before because they approached it as a series of decisions and how the system worked and not necessarily who was the governor at the time. Ty Hammond: I so appreciate that perspective. In a separate conversation, we could easily geek out on systems and complexity theory. At any point, I would be happy to do that. But the thing that I really want to draw awareness to is how, and I start with that first question about what shaped us so intentionally because I so often see, like you just said, Colleen: Yeah. Ty Hammond: the extent to which you're paying attention to how things work. And that was right there in your first answer to things and how you were paying attention as your child, because it was by necessity to some extent, right? So interesting just seeing that through line through your life here. Colleen: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yes, you're right. And I didn't realize it until I had time to actually contemplate. And I started to realize that has been a through line in my whole career and in my life. And it's also a big part of leaving the structured ranks was realizing I had, I think we all kid ourselves, we have control. And we really, none of us really have control. And as a result, It's more about understanding how we establish ourselves or what we're doing to be adaptive. And I think that's a big part of my philosophy as I've led throughout my time. couldn't do, for example, what some of the male bosses could do. You know, back in the day, I couldn't put my feet up on the desk and read the newspaper while I was on the job, even though that's what my predecessor did. It just wasn't done by me. by a girl, by, you know. And so I just started to realize, okay, just because they do it doesn't mean it's going to work for me. And just because how I was successful in the past when I moved companies, which I did, that the way I was successful in the past didn't necessarily mean that I was going to be successful doing the same thing over at this company. And so again, paying a lot of attention to how do I be the most relevant in this company. Because surprisingly, I didn't know this until I did make some changes, that companies are very, very different from one to another in the same industry. Ty Hammond: Yeah, well, we've all heard that saying, well, gotcha here won't get you there. I actually think it's even

more complex than that. It's what gotcha here might keep you from getting there. In other words, things change so much that it's not just like upgrading. Sometimes it's a wholesale questioning everything about the things that we've done things. Colleen: Yeah. You're right. So what you're saying, you're outlining, it's a constraint. And we should be exploring that. And that's hard to figure out. Ty Hammond: Absolutely. Yeah, that's really the, you know, the deep work of identifying what assumptions we've gathered along the way, being able to challenge those and how, and how they prevent us from seeing the complexity of things as they are. Colleen: Right, right. Yeah, so much done packed there. Ty Hammond: ⁓ I have a feeling that we might have to have another couple of these. We'll see. ⁓ Obviously, so much growth there even in the conversation, from, gosh, taking from early losses all the way up to courageous steps out into doing your own thing. That's a lot of growth. What's been the most valuable investment that you've made in yourself over the past several years or in your journey for your own growth? Colleen: Yeah. Probably not what you expect. ⁓ I think the most valuable investment I've made is to give myself grace. to kind of not hold myself to unrealistic expectations and understand I'm not perfect and maybe I don't even want to be perfect. And sometimes the most fun is in messy situations and enjoy it every step of the way, even if it's tough. There are so great memories. I think investing in me, I made some difficult board decisions. decisions to join boards that others might not have chosen. For example, ⁓ I was the individual recruited to be chairman of American Apparel when they were going through their mess. And a lot of my colleagues thought that might be the end of my board career. And I'm like, well, if I don't do it, who will? I mean, you've got 10,000 employees there. This is important company to try to save. And I didn't know what was going on other than they had a mess on their hands and they were, you know, overly indebted. And so I did take on that challenge and it was a challenge. no doubt it was a huge challenge. you know, the founder and founder led companies are a different animal than corporate, you know, traditional been around for a hundred years companies. And so it was, it was a very interesting, not to unravel. Ty Hammond: strikes me as a real willingness to, I mean, we've talked about the unknown a little bit, certainly that's the unknown, but it sounds to me like a fair amount of willingness to engage discomfort or challenge. Colleen: I think that's true. What I've always said is I need intellectual stimulation, whatever work I'm doing. So that comes with some of these more naughty issues. But I also now have the luxury of saying, and I'm going to do that with people I like. And then on top of that, whatever I do now, I better make a difference. And those are my criteria when I decided to take on American Apparel.

and be the chairman and make some very difficult and tough decisions. And ⁓ was it fun? No. Were great memories made? Absolutely. Came out of that with some of the best colleagues I've ever met. Weird, but true. Ty Hammond: Speaking of making a difference, what's your vision for your leadership, your legacy, or the impact that you want to have in the years ahead? Colleen: Honestly, I'd like to create a new asset class. And it isn't on governance. I think the asset class is in building systems and understanding, and maybe it goes in HR, maybe it's a whole new division, but the world is changing to a degree that governance isn't enough anymore. And we need to know how to monitor, measure, and affect the system in which the decisions are being made. Because it's ridiculous. I see companies like American Apparel go through pre-packed bankruptcy and come out and there's no way to run it going forward because they're still doing the same things. All they did was have their debt forgiven and guess what? know, a few years on the road they're going to be in the same position. So I'd love to see us identify this asset class that will make a difference in understanding how to keep companies ⁓ clear on what it's holding them back. And it is an I mean, we all can write governance documents. We can all write charters. We can all write, you know, all the bylaws and everything. And on paper, it can say one thing, but is that how it really works? Right? We have a code of conduct, but, you know, we all have been in organizations where you can point out, well, that guy's not following the code of conduct. Nobody's saying anything. And so how do we get to a system that changes this? How do we create system intelligence layers? That's something that I'd really like to make a difference in. Ty Hammond: Well, ⁓ I sign up for helping with that vision. Sounds incredibly important and in agreed. It's not possible to effectively operate within complex systems when you're treating them like complicated ones. Colleen: Yeah, and if we don't figure this out, companies are going to be falling by the wayside left and right. And real good companies with a lot of, you know, hard earned money invested in the stock market. And so that's why I think this is important. And I'm also extremely bothered that the era of our companies, we die off so quick as companies compared to I think what we could. don't know why is a lifespan of a company. I think it's like 40 years. in the US. It's a little bit different in Europe. Why is it so low? Just, you know, and in part because we don't adapt. In part, there's other reasons. Ty Hammond: That's a great lead into my next question. For you personally, what do you feel like are your current places where you're looking to grow and adapt, where you're being stretched most? What are the ways that you're gonna need to grow in order to really help you to herald in this vision for a new asset economy? Colleen: You know, recently, a year and a half ago,

I joined a crypto stablecoins company called Bakkt. It's the backbone of the internet, or excuse me, of crypto. And it was a kind of, it had its challenges and they were trying to turn the company around and I got asked to come in because I'm known for a solid player. Don't get rattled, you know, know how to do hard things. And I, every day when I ran my course, I was listening to a podcast about crypto because I didn't know anything about crypto. I knew a ton about governance. I knew a ton about being a public company. I knew, you know, started my career in banking. I knew a ton about, you know, the fintech market, but I did not know crypto or stable coins or payment systems or any of that. And ⁓ through the commitment to the podcast and then ⁓ just being a student of the industry. I truly believe our monetary system is going to change and that we're going to laugh, you know. Our grandchildren, no, our grandchildren's grandchildren will wonder what money is really. You had money, there's leftover money. What? There's money here? We no longer have pennies. What do we do with our pennies? So I think that changing the monetary system in the United States and in the world is going to be ⁓ fundamental to everything we think through. Every company is going to have to think through it. And I believe it's more secure than currency. And more traceable, if you will, and the exposure is such a nanosecond, it's just almost no friction in the marketplace. And so it's better for the consumers. It just has all the hallmarks of being a smart move to change our monetary system. And if we do that, it affects every company in the world, let alone every organization. So that's the biggest thing I'm working on right now is not that I'll ever be a master. but mastering it enough to understand how this disruption is going to impact all the organizations that I work with, advise, yeah, because that's, it's fundamental. Ty Hammond: I don't know if we can prepare for those kinds of things, but I do believe that the work of adapt- adaptiveness is being ready for anything, so. Colleen: Yeah, I really believe you got to go through the tough stuff to get to the other side. And that's what we're doing right now. Ty Hammond: So this last question here is a little bit more of an invitation. I wanna offer you the time and the space here to offer to our listeners whatever it is that's most in your mind and heart to share right now, whatever that is. Colleen: Wow, I didn't get prepped for this. ⁓ I do think that all of us should find a way to rein in our polarization. And this is an outcome of the internet, anonymity, if you will, on the internet that has caused such a polarization that it is very difficult to have. smart conversations that don't escalate into finger pointing. ⁓ And we're on the planet together, we've got to figure this stuff out and it doesn't help to ⁓ feed the fire. And so how we can become rational again, and I know we've studied the history on this, you know, back in the day, we all know the history of newspapers and yellow journalism and used to be wealthy families bought this paper, they still own some of them. to have power and control and the headline and have influence. That's all gonna still go on today. But we're an educated population. We've got to find a way to come together on what's best for our nation, let alone what's best for the world. Because like it or not, talk about leadership. We are in so many ways looked to as a leader, not that we should be or not that. I think some of us, some would say, yeah, we should be. Some would say we shouldn't be. Regardless, we're a strong influence in the world and I think we should have better behavior. Ty Hammond: Colleen, I so appreciate the wisdom that you've shared here today with me. I really gotten so much out of our conversation and I'm sure that whoever listens is equally gonna benefit from what you've shared here today. Thanks so much for being our guest on the True Leadership Podcast. Colleen: I really appreciate it, Ty. Thanks for having me. Ty Hammond: My pleasure.