النص الكامل لحلقة Life without Big Tech: a Swiss experiment

Sorry, you said a year ago you closed your Facebook account. 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:10.480 I think it's something that quite a lot of people thought about, but maybe not everybody has done. 00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:14.560 What was your starting point this time around when you began this experiment together? 00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:19.519 Yeah, we decided to split uh it a bit to make it easier. 00:05:19.759 --> 00:05:30.079 In my case, I started with my phone, trying to understand if alternatives, uh European alternatives and more sustainable ones would be available on the market. 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:34.079 And with Christian, we um did research on that. 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:51.600 It's not very easy to be completely 100% uh independent from big tech because still the components, the hardware components of the phones are still produced in a handful of countries, the US, the chips, and some uh other components in China. 00:05:51.759 --> 00:05:56.399 And it's impossible to find a phone that is completely free of that. 00:05:56.639 --> 00:06:10.240 But we wanted at least to try ethical alternatives in the sense of how they are produced, how other people are treated, how other people in other countries are exploited to have this phone uh in our hands. 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:13.680 So this was also uh an important part. 00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:26.480 Even though, of course, it's not easy to completely uh look uh into the the topic uh from uh 360 uh degree perspective. 00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:36.480 So we focused on the software part, so try to use alternatives to the apps that we use every day, and also the operating system, of course. 00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:46.079 So we wanted something that didn't put us into the dependence with Google or uh Apple at the end. 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:48.800 An open source operating system. 00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:51.920 Yeah, because privacy is something that you mentioned at first, Christian. 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:53.040 That's obviously a big concern. 00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:58.240 I think a lot of people are aware about if your data is stored in another country, what could happen to your data? 00:06:58.399 --> 00:07:00.959 There's lots of possibilities that people started to think about. 00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:11.040 So, Christian, Sarah was very focused on the phone, but you also um focused on your your personal computer, your laptop at home, and you changed operating systems. 00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:11.759 Is that right? 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:12.800 Yeah, true. 00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:18.480 Yeah, I went from what we all have usually, uh Windows, and then I changed to Linux. 00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:25.199 Uh but Linux uh as an open source system is mostly fully compatible with anybody's life. 00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:28.800 I mean, the the hard part is maybe installing it. 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:36.560 It actually took even a day, I think, just to you know get it in, reboot, and so forth. 00:07:36.800 --> 00:07:44.560

Um, and then getting used to the apps, but uh but the how it looks, the interface is actually very similar to Windows. 00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:47.360 You wouldn't need a tech background to do it. 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:55.120 Being on Linux feels like you're part of an open society, an open system where everybody shares, right? 00:07:55.199 --> 00:08:02.800 Like whereas Windows, it's something you pay for every year, and you're part of this closed loop, and it uh the prices always go up. 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:06.879 I think this is uh this is a more interesting uh thing. 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:09.120 And and it wasn't it wasn't that hard, right? 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:18.319 You know, it's funny listening to this because I had a Linux, uh I had Linux on my computer when I was at university for like three years or something, and there was a lot of writing commands. 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:19.279 Really? 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:23.199 But then it was okay, because you know I didn't have an iPhone then, obviously. 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:25.040 Well not obviously, but I didn't. 00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:28.480 iPhones weren't you know in everybody's hands back in the olden days. 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:35.759 Uh so yeah, you know, you kind of put up with these inconveniences, but nowadays I would never do that. 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:36.480 No. 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:38.639 Yeah, okay, yeah, okay. 00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:39.519 So why not? 00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:40.799 When you already did it. 00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:42.399 Yeah, but you know, that was then. 00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:43.759 Now I have even less time. 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:45.120 Then time was endless. 00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:45.759 Exactly. 00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:48.000 Yeah, time uh is money. 00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:48.480 Yeah. 00:08:48.639 --> 00:08:51.279 I could sit around fiddling with the computer all day if I wanted to. 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:53.039 But now I need things to work. 00:08:53.759 --> 00:08:55.840 But I haven't really thought about it in depth before. 00:08:55.919 --> 00:08:58.240 But now that we've talked about it, I'm thinking about it. 00:08:58.559 --> 00:08:59.759 Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah. 00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:10.720 But true, I mean it is a lot of work uh in the end, and maybe the time that I spent doing these things or learning them through also this was uh in the evening, maybe. 00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:16.639 Then part of the experiment for me was to change my email provider through like 15 years, right? 00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:20.720 Like Google Google Mail and and that also wasn't that hard. 00:09:20.799 --> 00:09:23.279 I mean, there's so many alternatives out there. 00:09:23.440 --> 00:09:26.799 There are Swiss alternatives, there are European alternatives. 00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:33.519 The problem might be that you don't have the same amount of available storage that you might need to pay. 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:36.879 But if you delete your emails, that's also not

a problem. 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:38.240 So it really depends. 00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:38.480 Yeah. 00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:41.519 So delete all, finally, you get to use that option. 00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:42.240 Exactly. 00:09:42.559 --> 00:09:43.440 That might feel good. 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:45.200 Yeah, I I loved that part, right? 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:50.000 Like I had a Gmail through 15 years and there was just so much data to download on your computer. 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:51.039 That's incredible. 00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:51.840 Yeah. 00:09:52.480 --> 00:10:00.000 But also anything we use in the in the cloud today, that's also a big part of what I wanted to see if there are alternatives, right? 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:12.320 It could be switching Netflix to to something else, or it could be switching Claude or ChatGPT to Mistral, because then I at least kind of have a sense of the data is getting stored in Europe. 00:10:12.559 --> 00:10:20.480 It's not getting moved into some random state somewhere abroad where I don't know what people are using my very private data for. 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:23.840 Because LLMs today is just even more private than before, right? 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:36.320 When I uh deleted uh ChatGPT and I saw the conversations that I've had and the data it had on, like the advertising profile basically it had on me, it was just it was absolutely insane. 00:10:36.399 --> 00:10:39.519 It was much more insane than what you would have on Facebook. 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:47.840 I mean, I think the way they can use the data they have in an LLM is is uh much further than what you used to do before. 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:59.759 You consent uh basically by saying they're not uh they're not allowed to train your data, but you don't consent that they are not allowed to advertise in a future point, you know, for for you. 00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:05.919 And if they're advertising on a profile that is full of private data, I would find that's even worse. 00:11:06.399 --> 00:11:10.960 So quick quick interjection for those of you who don't know what an LLM is, no shame in that. 00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:13.279 We're talking about large language models, for example. 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:17.919 The most well-known uh one is ChatGPT, where you can ask it a question and it gives you an answer. 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:19.120 Like magic. 00:11:19.600 --> 00:11:20.240 Almost. 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:40.720 And one note, let's not forget that we still had uh to rely on USLMs to get rid of uh our um mainstream apps and for instance to in to install an operating system that is open source on my phone. 00:11:40.879 --> 00:11:42.320 It was complicated. 00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:49.279 We we did it, especially Christian did it because he made it at the end, asking ChatGPT basically. 00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:56.399 So still there is the reliance there, we are not 100% free from big tech. 00:11:56.480 --> 00:11:56.960 That's clear. 00:11:57.440 --> 00:11:58.320 Absolutely, yeah. 00:11:58.559 --> 00:11:59.039 Yeah. 00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:01.039 But as I'm saying, it helps you out a lot. 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:03.360 LLMs can help you out, and that's also the thing. 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:11.919 I think it's actually even easier today to to try and become independent because you just have a lot of technical help that you would not have before. 00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:23.039 When when there is an obstacle, then you go back to the better, the better software, which is usually these three huge tech companies today. 00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:23.600 Yeah. 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:28.799 Yeah, there's definitely a lot of pros and cons that you have to weigh up once you once you start looking at this. 00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:30.159 True. 00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:31.120 Absolutely. 00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:41.679 It's I think it goes for the whole experiment as a whole, it's it was also a private thing, because of course we could not really go to work saying we we won't use any of the applications that we have at work. 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:45.679 I still go to work using all the applications that I used before. 00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:52.720 Then I go home and then I kind of de, you know, de-americanize my tech load. 00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:54.240 But I think that's that's the thing. 00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:59.840 You cannot really tell your boss, okay, we're gonna we're gonna go on Linux as of Monday. 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:05.440 That would be quite a big request potentially for a large company, but maybe in a smaller one. 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:08.320 Maybe I I think this is a great discussion. 00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:16.720 Whether we cannot do it or whether we just choose to be, you know, comfortable with the tech stack that we already have. 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:19.919 I think this was also one of the s surrounding questions here. 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:30.159 Is it really that impossible to go away, or is it just because we choose so because we don't want to disturb our employees, because we don't want to disturb our convenience uh at work. 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:36.159 How long would it take if you really wanted to go away from American tech or from big tech? 00:13:36.399 --> 00:13:39.440 Um and I I think we found some answers here. 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:43.519 It's really some things are very, very easy. 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:46.879 You could do it tomorrow, and some things are are almost impossible. 00:13:47.759 --> 00:13:50.159 So let's go to these almost impossible parts. 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:53.519 Because I know that you researched this topic a lot before you started. 00:13:53.679 --> 00:13:58.000 But were there any problems that you didn't expect that were really difficult to deal with? 00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:04.960 Yeah, of course, when you talk about the phone, all the problems come out very easily. 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:10.159 Uh for instance, one very small, tiny thing, but I think

important. 00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:25.919 My phone with uh the Fairphone 5 with uh an open source operating system that is still based on Android but the Googled from uh Android Services, didn't have a QR code uh reader integrated in the camera. 00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:38.799 I'm not sure if it is a choice, production choice, also for uh privacy, or if not, but I had basically to download an app to read the QR code. 00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:40.320 This was the first tiny thing. 00:14:40.559 --> 00:14:48.879 But yeah, when you are used to just uh read a QR code very uh quickly and it doesn't work, then you waste time, right? 00:14:49.039 --> 00:14:56.399 And so that of course made me annoyed because in our daily life we want technology that is working. 00:14:56.639 --> 00:15:02.799 And then, of course, there was the biggest part related to all the apps related to work. 00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:11.200 They just don't work on an operating system that is not uh Google, Android, or Apple uh iOS. 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:20.720 So I'm cut off any working app from Teams to emails to Outlook. 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:22.559 It just doesn't work. 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:32.240 So we we asked already our IT colleagues, and they said it was really a choice by the SRG for security reasons basically. 00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:36.720 So I cannot use those apps on my fair phone. 00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:51.120 For this reason, I still have my iPhone, I still use that, and I have it with with uh bad apps that I don't want on my nice and and free from uh big tech uh new phone. 00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:56.320 Yeah, because of course these are the two kind of concerns that aren't always uh easy to reconcile. 00:15:56.399 --> 00:16:01.519 You know, the concerns and security of a large company, and then there may be ethical concerns of an individual. 00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:07.039 Yeah, I mean I can follow up on that because we were talking about things that were impossible, right? 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:13.919 You you were talking about things that are really impossible, like apps that don't work, don't work with your with your work. 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:17.039 But there are also things that are just socially impossible. 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:32.240 Like when you have apps, like messenger apps, for instance, and you want to go to an alternative that you know is ethically better or morally better or whatever, these apps uh are like basically empty because none of your friends are there. 00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:39.360 That I experienced when I tried to, let's say, de-appify myself from from uh WhatsApp. 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:42.960 Suddenly I just found myself not having any friends. 00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:46.320 It's the But was that the app's fault or was that something else? 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:47.440 Exactly right. 00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:49.519 There was no friends before that. 00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:56.320 Um the thing is you you can't you can't you can't move your whole base

of friends there, right? 00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:56.720 Yeah. 00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:00.080 And and somebody there has to be this big pull. 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:02.799 And I I think this is what we always see. 00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:08.960 There are alternatives to X or the alternatives to Facebook, but most of people they don't go there. 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:10.960 So yeah. 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:16.640 I faced the same problem when I installed Signal on my fair phone. 00:17:16.799 --> 00:17:27.680 I decided, of course, not to have at the same time WhatsApp on the same phone, and I tried to explain to my friends on WhatsApp that I was not using that uh anymore. 00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:31.519 And some people, for instance, I was very surprised. 00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:42.480 My mom, she's 75 years old, and she's really a boomer, so she doesn't have any kind of uh experience with uh technology. 00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:50.079 But she was the first person to transition to Signal because she wanted so badly to be in contact with uh her daughter. 00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:51.440 Um that's nice. 00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:51.839 Yeah. 00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:54.960 If the motivation is there, people can make a change. 00:17:55.359 --> 00:17:55.680 Yeah. 00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:56.799 Good for your mom. 00:17:57.279 --> 00:17:57.759 That's true. 00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:15.839 But I think there is also um kind of cultural thing or a question of not understanding why, if everyone is on WhatsApp, uh you are not there and you want other people, you want to force other people to install another app. 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:22.319 So why should I have another app that's just for you, just to be in touch with you? 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:31.680 Um so I think there is also this component of people disturbed by the fact that they don't understand why it's important. 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:33.200 Yeah, absolutely. 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:39.599 That can be really difficult to explain reasons behind things that you do, I think, with technology and social platforms at the moment. 00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:42.960 So we talked a lot about the problems, of which there were many, I understand. 00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:46.480 But tell me, were there any parts that were actually much easier than you expected? 00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:48.640 I would love to hear if that happened. 00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:52.000 Yeah, I think it's more of a feeling. 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:55.359 So you feel immediately freer. 00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:09.119 You feel that you are not so attached to the notification, to look at the emails and the messages from work every second, and so you can really have a break in your life. 00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:13.200 I uh experience it a lot uh in my free time. 00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:17.680 I don't look at the phone so often as it was before. 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:22.079 And yeah, I feel really uh more disconnected. 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:38.400 I think this is uh a really nice feeling, and also the fact that I think that I have my data more under my own control that I can decide where it goes and where it will be stored and what happens with it. 00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:41.920 It's a really nice feeling, uh, I think. 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:44.079 That's very interesting to hear. 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:51.839 Was it the same for you, Christine, or was there something else that was No, it's always the same because it's also sometimes a theoretical exercise. 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:56.000 You're thinking, you know, this might not have an impact ever on me. 00:19:56.079 --> 00:20:04.160 Maybe nobody is gonna go after me and my data, but uh you feel better when you go uh and take care of your own data. 00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:07.119 But I don't think it's an easier process. 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:09.359 There are not easier or better products out there. 00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:17.839 Mostly alternatives are the same or or worse, but again, you just you know what you pay for. 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:25.279 Or at least if you get into this mindset, you understand why the products that you already had before, why they are better. 00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:29.039 They're better because what you pay for is the is with your data, right? 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:31.519 So I feel better about myself. 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:41.359 I feel I'm more safe if it's you come to to show that somebody would uh steal, steal my data or use it for benign purpose. 00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:41.599 Yeah. 00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:49.279 Um you wrote about all of this in your article that's on our website, Swissinfo.ch, in getting out of big tech. 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:54.160 And in that article, you also mentioned that Switzerland wants to become more digitally independent. 00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:55.920 What does that mean exactly? 00:20:56.720 --> 00:21:32.000 Of course, uh, with this geopolitical situation, also countries, also businesses, and not only uh private people understand the importance of being detached from services that could be just shut down from one day to another to disturb the workflow of an entire nation, for instance, or uh services that could increase their licenses fees for the same reason, or just because you are so dependent on them that they know it's uh hard to let them go. 00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:46.400 So also countries in many parts of the world, including Europe and including Switzerland, they aspire to more sovereignty, to more um neutrality in terms of also of the tech that they use. 00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:52.640 And of course, Switzerland being a neutral country, this is an important discussion to have. 00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:57.119 But there too, uh there are frictions and there are obstacles. 00:21:57.200 --> 00:22:05.759 But Switzerland is starting, I think, to To find better alternatives or or at least to have a plan B, let's say, in this sense. 00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:07.039 Okay. 00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:10.160 So finally,

then the big question. 00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:17.599 Did you both stay divorced from the big tech companies, or were you happy to reconnect once this experiment was over? 00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:19.440 What happened? 00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:22.720 The experiment, I don't think it's over for me. 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:23.839 Ah, okay. 00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:27.039 So I'm I'm still on the experiment. 00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:47.039 Um I think it's uh it's important to give yourself a bit of time to get used to the new reality of your life with uh with a new phone, with other apps, trying to uh also bring more people on your side, let's say, especially in your family circles and friends. 00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:52.880 But yeah, I would say for the moment I'm in a limbo. 00:22:54.160 --> 00:22:56.319 So uh I'm still evaluating. 00:22:56.559 --> 00:23:01.839 I see um positive sides, but of course there are negative ones. 00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:08.640 Uh as we said before, uh, I don't like, for instance, that I have to go around with two phones. 00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:10.000 That's a pain, yeah. 00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:12.880 I think there are compromises that we have to make. 00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:13.599 This is clear. 00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:15.279 Yeah, definitely. 00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:16.319 And you, Kristen? 00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:19.519 Yeah, I mean I didn't set out to change my phone. 00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:22.880 It's still uh still a big tech phone. 00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:25.279 It still has uh Google systems. 00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:27.680 I've deleted many of the apps though. 00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:30.400 But that also creates its own problems, you know. 00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:32.559 When you delete Google, it wants to come back. 00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:35.279 So you get all kinds of error messages. 00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:42.319 But the other things, yeah, I changed my my my software, my Windows is not a part of my life at home. 00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:45.680 The same goes for email providers. 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:49.039 I'm trying as well with any LLM that I use. 00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:53.039 So I think you know, I'm I'm just I this was the goal. 00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:55.920 I didn't see myself going completely rogue. 00:23:56.319 --> 00:23:58.559 I think it's a step-by-step approach as well. 00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:08.640 Nobody could just dive in and do it tomorrow, as with as with anything that you want to get out of, if you have any anything that you're addicted to. 00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:09.279 Yeah. 00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:11.200 Okay, fantastic. 00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:17.920 So, Christian and Sarah, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today and telling us all about this experiment you've been going through. 00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:23.599 And if people want to read more about what you did, they can find your articles online at Swisinfo.ch. 00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:25.279 Yeah, thank you. 00:24:25.599 --> 00:24:26.079 Thanks. 00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:36.319 Coming up in the next episode of the Swiss Connection Science Podcast, we'll be finding out why it matters that everyone has a say in AI, from big companies to ordinary people. 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:40.240 So hit subscribe now in your podcast feed to make sure you don't miss it. 00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:51.680 For more science stories, you can visit our website swisinfo.ch, and you can help others to find our podcast by leaving us a five-star review or share our podcast with a friend. 00:24:56.960 --> 00:25:02.480 Today's episode was recorded and edited by our science and video journalist Michaeli Andina. 00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:03.440 I'm Joe Fay. 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:17.759 Thanks for listening to the colour.