النص الكامل لحلقة What Makes Learning Transfer?

you know and I have I had I have a book that goes with it, I have I have all kinds of materials in in addition to a really robust website, but then One of the things about transfer, right? Like I Jill: Mm-hmm. Katrina: in my mind, I've really decided that making something transfer and making something stick are two different things. And I and I'm I'm Jill: Yeah. tell me more. Katrina: yeah, and I'm kind of moving away from like the sticking idea. Jill: okay, so did I say the wrong phrase in the in the opening? It's okay. It's okay. Okay. Okay, Katrina: No, no, no, no. I'm glad you did because it allows me to have this conversation. Jill: good, okay, good. Katrina: So, you know, we we say a lot of like make it stick, and I think even like Jill: Mm-hmm. Katrina: the subtitle and some of the the information for my book includes stick. Yeah, don't tell. so you know, Jill: We won't tell anybody. Yeah. Shh. Mm-hmm. Katrina: the idea of stick is that it's like in your head, right? And like it's you've got it there. But Jill: Yeah, mm-hmm. Yeah. Katrina: the idea of transfer is that I've got it and I'm using it. Jill: I love that. It's the application piece. Okay. Okay. Katrina: It's the application. Absolutely. And without the application, the work that we do in learning and development, Jill: Yeah. Katrina: whether it's leadership or communication, whatever it is, Jill: Yep. Katrina: without transfer, we are wasting people's time and money. Jill: Yes. And yes, limited resources for sure on both of those things for pretty much every organization we work with. Katrina: Absolutely. Absolutely. And then so the the institute breaks transfer down into some really specific tools that you add to your process of designing and delivering a program so that it actually transfers. And the the cool thing I've said cool like five times, huh? but anyway, okay, good. Jill: I'm not counting. At least you didn't say stick. You're it's better than stick, apparently, so good. Yeah. Please do not email Katrina: go, there you go. It's not that you can't say stick or wear stripes. It's just like yeah that Jill: us about the word stick. We love the word stick. Katrina: Although if you say it too many times it's it begins to feel weird. But anyway Jill: Yeah, everywhere. That's all that's a whole nother podcast why that happens. Katrina: Yes it is. Jill: Absolutely. Katrina: So one of the first tools they give you, one of the first resources they give you, based on some really great research, is this card that says without transfer tools, Jill: I love it. Okay. Katrina: 15% of what people, or only 15% of people will apply what you cover in Jill: Okay. Katrina: training and be successful. Only 15%. So that's 85% Jill: Only fifteen percent, okay. Katrina: who are like, It's not working for and and and fifteen Jill: not gonna do anything. Katrina: right, right. That that then they may try it and it it fails, or they just don't even try it. But Jill: Yeah, yeah. Katrina: when you put transfer tools in place, eighty-five percent of the people will it will try it and be successful. Jill: Honestly, that 15% statistic makes me want to cry a little bit. But okay, so so I have to ask what's a transfer tool then? Because we don't want it to be just fifteen percent. That that is painful for anybody who is in this industry, either giving or receiving the training. So tell us. Katrina: Right. And and it's one of those things that I think we have to face and we can face it with the transfer tools. And the transfer tools are divided into into three categories. and they're referred to as twelve levers for transfer. And then Jill: Okay. Katrina: and then we can get it like it's it's going to end up being hundreds of tools. But we can put them into into three categories and Jill: Okay. Katrina: then it comes out to twelve levers. So The the first the first category is looking at trainees. So we're looking at their motivation, their self-efficacy, and their volition. Jill: Okay. Katrina: So, you know, do they want to be there? Do Jill: Mm-hmm. Katrina: they think they can do it? Can and can they can be successful? And then you know, do they actually like have the wherewithal, you know, to Jill: Mm-hmm. Katrina: like can they can they keep it going? Jill: Yeah. Katrina: So so that You know, that one seems pretty like we can look at that and go, okay, you need the right people at the right time. Jill: Right. Katrina: The and then there's training design, which, you know, is my favorite category. Jill: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Katrina: And when we look at training design, we're looking at clarity of expectations, right? Like, do you know what you're actually here for? Does it align? That kind of thing. Jill: Right. Right, right, right. Katrina: and then is the content relevant to you? And You know, obviously, if it's not relevant, you're not gonna use it, you're not gonna Jill: Right, right, right. Katrina: transfer it. and then my favorite is active practice. So in the training environment, are you actually practicing the thing we want you to transfer to the workplace? And Jill: Right, right, right. Katrina: then the final, the final lever for that category is transfer planning. So we've actually in Jill: Mm. Katrina: the training talked about, dare I say, reflect on. Jill: my goodness, all of our worlds are just colliding right now in this moment. Okay, okay, so we're back at reflection. Yes, okay, okay. Yeah. Yes, yes. It's Katrina: Yes, we're back at reflection. So can you see why this certificate mattered so much to me? Yeah. And but Jill: yes. Katrina: And and so now you've taken time for reflection and you've had people select and define how am I gonna use this? What am I Jill: Mm-hmm. Katrina: gonna do? And then the final the final category is organization. And Jill: Okay. Katrina: this is the one, in my opinion, we fail at most often. So in the in the organization category, we're looking at opportunities for application. Jill: Okay. Right.

Right, right, right. Katrina: So, can you go do this right away? Like, can you put this into practice? And then your personal transfer capacity. Jill: Mm. Katrina: How often do we send people to a learning experience? They get some new tool and then we send them back to work, but they are so overwhelmed with just keeping up with what they missed that Jill: Yeah. Yeah. Katrina: there's they finding that opportunity, like just having the capacity to do it is hard. Then support from two different groups. One of them you could guess, which is the supervisors, right? Support from supervisors. Jill: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Katrina: So and and supervisors are actively supporting, like actively asking, f engage. Exactly. And then the Jill: Engaged in the okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Katrina: other group is support from peers. Jill: Okay. Katrina: And I Jill: Like holding each other accountable for trying the things, seeing them that sort of thing. Katrina: Yeah, ex exactly, exactly. And also like I I don't know if you've ever seen this happen. it happened, I know it happened to me like a bajillion years ago. So maybe people have changed. That I went to a tra I went to training, Jill: I doubt it. Katrina: I learned the skill, I come back to work, Jill: Uh-huh. Katrina: I'm super excited about using it, and the person in the the desk or the cubicle next to me is like, that's dumb. Jill: Mm, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Nope, that never Katrina: We don't do it that way here. You can't you know, it like yeah. I'm sure that doesn't happen anymore at all. Jill: happens. That that problem has been eradicated. So that's the good news. Totally doesn't happen anymore. No, that happens all the time. Katrina: Excellent. Excellent. And I feel like we just need this, like if we had little pop-ups, if we were that if our podcast was that fancy, there'd be a little pop-up Jill: yeah. Katrina: right now that says sarcasm. So Jill: Or the Reddit, which is like the backslash S. so yes. Okay, okay, noted, noted. I did. So the peers, okay. Katrina: I did I did not know that about Reddit. So learning so many things today. and then finally, the and this is a hard one. This is one that I actually struggled with in the design that I presented, and I'm Jill: Mm-hmm. Katrina: struggling with with in a bit with the organization that I'm actually using that design in. and that's transfer expectations in the organization. Jill: Mm. Katrina: So, you know, now we're looking about systems and structure. Jill: Yeah. Katrina: And how are those systems and structure gonna respond to somebody doing something in a d in a different way? Jill: Yeah. Katrina: And so when you consider all of these, you're really creating more in insurance, if you will, that something is going to transfer. Because you're you're Jill: To transform. Katrina: thinking it through, you're designing very intentionally, and in many cases, you're you're slowing the process down. Not to slow it down, but to make sure that you are

actually addressing a problem that can be resolved with learning. Jill: So where do you think thinking about all of those things that are are really required for knowledge transfer, which means we learn something, we're able to do something, we do something with it, where do you think most people go wrong? Katrina: Hmm. Well, I think, I think when we look at the organization, people Jill: Mm-hmm. Katrina: probably don't ask enough questions about what's already been done. I mean, you know that. Like that's that's Jill: Okay. Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Katrina: the basic discovery call that that many organizations don't think about because they just want to like, let's just get this thing done. Let's start right. Jill: Let's start. Let's go. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Katrina: and then from my from my perspective, from what I've seen with the people Jill: Mm-hmm. Katrina: I work with. It is active practice. Jill: Okay. Katrina: I think we do a lot of active talking. Jill: Mm I am very good at actively talking. FYI, so okay, perfect. Katrina: Right. And and and and I think people don't it like are really well intentioned, Jill: Sure, sure. Katrina: but I think they all often forget that for a lot of people you can tell me something and I can sit and nod and feel like I understand it, Jill: Yeah. Katrina: but then when I go to put it into practice and you're not there, that can be really difficult. Like Jill: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Katrina: And and I think that's sometimes where the disconnect happens that I I haven't practiced it. I haven't gotten to feel what it was like. Jill: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Katrina: So Jill: Or they try to go practice it and the first time it's very clunky and it's uncomfortable and it doesn't even sound right. And then you do that outside of the train experience and you feel stupid for lack of a better word. And so you're like, I'm not doing that again, right? yeah. Katrina: Right. Right, right. And and you know, as in the in the learning environment, I Jill: Mm-hmm. Katrina: think there are many trainers and facilitators who want to just make things easy. Jill: Mm. Yeah. Katrina: And I think that's not our job. I think our job is not to make Jill: Yeah, that's true. Katrina: you like so uncomfortable that you can't be successful, but Jill: Right. Katrina: it's to make you feel like what it feels like to do the thing. Jill: Yeah. Katrina: I use the the the story, the analogy, the the question in almost all the training that I do, I will say, if if you are going to phlebotomist to have your blood drawn. Jill: Right. Katrina: How did you want them to learn? Jill: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Katrina: Watch a video or poke an orange and a tomato and then a person. Jill: And then their aunt or their best friend, whoever they can come to get, come in Katrina: Right Jill: to be the guinea pig. Bless those people. Yeah. I mean, that's Katrina: Exactly. Exactly. Jill: a great call out. And I think to something that you said a little bit ago when we were talking

about the organizations, is sending them to training and providing training, which is great and it's an investment. And there are a lot of organizations who don't even do that. So, so doing that. But then when they get back in the job, there's just such mental overwhelm with all of the tasks and all of the duties that the supervisors even forget to ask about it. Or, you know, the person forgets and until they see the materials on their desk and they're cleaning their desk off or something. so if if you're wanting to To provide some suggestions, because I mean I see this all the time too. My favorite one, by the way, is let's schedule a training, let's sign people up for that training, and then let's schedule another meeting and ask the people just to bounce out of that training for an hour, take this other call, and then go back to the training just for a little bit. what questions should we be asking organizations? What conversation should we be having to make sure that those people are set up for success when they leave this phlebotomy training? and go back into their day to day work to practice. Katrina: Well, and I I I think I I think you you've already you've you've identified it, which is, you know, how are we supporting these people? How are we what are you what are you doing so Jill: Yeah. Katrina: that they are not being called to a meeting during training, immediately after training? Jill: Yeah. Katrina: What buffers are we creating? And and Jill: I like that. Yeah. Katrina: and and the even backing it up from there a little bit. Getting really specific with what behaviors and knowledge we're trying to impart. Because I think I think we create these long laundry lists, and maybe there should be less. Maybe focus Jill: Yeah. Katrina: on one or two things in Jill: Mm-hmm. Katrina: the learning environment, do it in a smaller chunk, let them go, check in Jill: Yes. Katrina: with them, which is part of the transfer process, right? You're checking in whether you're using a tool like Actionable or something else. Like I'm checking in. Hey, how are you doing with that? Hey, how Jill: Yeah. Katrina: you doing? Are you practicing that? And then come back again. So really not just asking better questions of the organization, but also structuring things around the reality that people live in. Jill: Yeah. Katrina: you know, like. You don't you don't all ask the accounting department to do their training at the end of the month. You know, basic, basic timing that we're thinking about. Jill: Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Nor do you give them forty five minutes one time to train them across all of the accounting technology and software that they're gonna be needing to use for everything that they do. Yeah. Katrina: Exactly, and expect that to like dare I say stick? Jill: Yeah. No, you say transfer. Yeah. Katrina: Right, right. Like it's just not it doesn't that's that is not how we learn. And the more we can really think about and honor how people learn,

I think Jill: Yeah. Katrina: the less time we can take over time, like we're not redoing things then. We're not giving people things they don't need. We're getting really specific with with what our goals are in the learning environment. We're connecting those. To the goals of the organization. So now I as a participant, I see the relevance. As the supervisor, I see the relevance. As the person signing the check for this, I see the relevance. And then ultimately, Jill: Yeah. Right. Katrina: you and I, as training providers, we can better map measure the impact that our work has because Jill: Yes, yes. Katrina: we have tied it to something meaningful in the organization. Jill: Yeah. I I wonder, I have a question for you actually. Sort of a question. As you were talking about this, I have had the experience where I think organizations that that hire and want to do training, I think there's people that don't even connect training with learning. And as kind of silly as that sounds, When they say come and do this training and then we start talking about what what we need to be able to learn, it's like they don't almost connect those two. Have you have you had this experience? You're nodding your head, so Katrina: Yeah, I won't out who it was or where it was but Jill: It's a safe space here. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Katrina: Safe space. and and it's actually happened more than once. And you know, I think people I mean, one, there's a checklist, right? Organizations have a checklist, these are the things we need to provide. Boom. Done. Jill: Yeah. Yeah. Katrina: I had a participant in a class for facilitators learning how to facilitate training. Jill: boy. boy. Katrina: And we went through an activity, you know, which is essentially like, why are you doing this? You know, and that that's that's how I start all of my design classes. Why are you doing this? Jill: Right. Katrina: And he he said to me, I don't see the point of this activity. I'm just going to tell them. What they need to do. Jill: You know, there is something to be said for that honesty. Because as much as it makes that guy sound like a real buffoon, I can tell you there's so many people that think that. But okay, sorry, didn't we interrupt, go ahead. Katrina: Yeah, yeah. So I I don't know why there's a disconnect between Jill: Mm-hmm. Katrina: training and learning. I I mean, and part of it I think we could probably blame on the industry and our desire to change our terms every six years. You know? I mean I like I can't Jill: That's true, yeah. Yeah. Katrina: even I as I'm talking to you, I'm like facilitator, trainer, like I don't know what word to use. no, not teacher. Jill: Yeah, you're right. You're right. You're right. Mm-hmm. Teacher. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. No, you don't like teacher. my Katrina: Ha ha. Jill: God. Tell me. Tell us why. Why don't you like using teacher? Katrina: Well, because you're not you're not teaching. You're not standing like teaching in like the not I know things evolve, but teaching for many of us Jill: Yeah. Katrina: for adults in the workplace, I think that conjures a picture of rows and desks and sitting and Jill: interesting. Katrina: listening and being taught. But if you're in training Jill: interesting. Okay. Mm-hmm. Katrina: And and you think about training, Jill: Yeah. Katrina: and and that word is kind of coming back, which pleases me. Because if you know I'm in training, I Jill: Right. Katrina: am learning how to do my job. I am being trained for my job so that I can be successful in my job. Where teaching, if if you think about just like elementary teaching, even college, unless you're going to Jill: Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. Katrina: a specific field, I'm teaching you about something. So here's history. Jill: Okay. Katrina: Let me teach you about it. Jill: Okay. Katrina: In training, in the workplace, nobody Jill: Mm-hmm. Katrina: needs to know the history of whatever. Jill: Ha Katrina: Like, you know, if I'm gonna if I'm gonna brush my teeth, don't teach me the history of the toothbrush. Teach me how to brush my teeth, right? The garbage collector Jill: Ha ha ha. Katrina: does not know the hi need to know the history of. Garbage collection He needs to know how to operate the claw thingy. Jill: Okay. Katrina: I I'm saying that because I had to wait for a garbage truck earlier today as it was using the cloth angie. I needed two Jill: And you were wishing that maybe he had better training on how to use the cloth thingy? Katrina: No no no, I was actually really impressed because he dec he he picked up two cans with one squeeze. Jill: You'd have some good training. Okay, so you're Katrina: Yes. Jill: saying the distinction there is teaching is, I'm just telling you or or helping you learn about some things, some that doesn't necessarily have to do with your job, right? So you can learn a language, you want to learn Spanish, you're gonna get taught Spanish. If you are in a class at the workplace, in theory, although I don't know that this always happens just like this. In theory, you are attending something in order to get better at your job. So that in your head is that's the distinction there. interesting. We've never had this conversation. Okay. Okay. No, no. Yeah. Katrina: Absolutely, absolutely. We have not. We have not. And but if I'm teaching you to do something and you're applying it, you're practicing it, Jill: Mm-hmm. Katrina: it's going to transfer. And I will be able to measure it because it Jill: Right. Katrina: was aligned with a goal that the organization holds and that we're already measuring. And look, voila, it's not so hard. We make it so hard because we Jill: Yeah. Katrina: try to teach people and then tie it to some weird metric, but there's no through line. Ooh. Man, it is Jill: Right. Right. Katrina: really sad that I don't get passionate about this. Jill: I wish you cared a little bit. I wish you cared a little bit. Katrina: It's I I I have been in learning and development, talent

development, training and development, like Jill: Yeah. Katrina: for thirty years. And we're having the same conversations. Jill: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if it's helpful or unhelpful, but I will tell you, healthcare is the same way. We are having the same conversations in healthcare we were having 20 years ago, but that's just a side note. That's an interesting point because you're right. There is so much different lingo, talent development, training development, training, facilitator, teacher, instructor. best friend, whatever it is, in our industry, then it does become a little bit hard. Again, to to your earlier point, is it stick, is it transfer? We're even changing, right? As we learn more, which we should, but that can be difficult, I think, to communicate. Katrina: Absolutely. Well, and especially when we are in a profession that is not you know, it's not like accounting. It's not like a dental practice where Jill: Right. Mm-hmm. Katrina: you have a very specific credential and you have a very specific licensing body. Jill: Mm-hmm. Katrina: And and and and and I don't think we need those things in learning and development because sometimes you're sitting next to the person who's, Jill: Right. Katrina: you know Right, like your coworker and you're you're helping them develop. And sometimes Jill: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Katrina: it's the entire organization, like it's it's different. But I do think we need to have a basic understanding of how people learn. Jill: Yes, yes. Katrina: And then really focus on how the work we are doing fits into the organization Jill: Uh-huh. Katrina: so that we can be successful and so that we actually show our worth and can continue to show our worth. Jill: It's funny because I kicked off a program, a leadership program a couple of weeks ago, and I had this thought, and I I have not done this before, but I had this thought about starting the leadership programs with kind of a introduction on how we learn to help them understand, because they are coming there to be better leaders, which is phenomenal, and I love that, but to help them understand before we even talk about leaders. that this is a learning environment and here's how you can help it. And I do talk about that a little bit in the beginning, but I thought it would be, I think, set the context right for this is a learning environment. And here's how you can help make this transfer from you to to your, you know, whatever area of practice versus starting off with what is leader, which is kind of a little bit the typical, So now after this conversation, I'm thinking I am gonna revisit that because I do think it it it is a missing link. I think we do that more in like I'm gonna train you how to operate a forklift, or I'm gonna train there's we do that a little bit more in things that are very c you know, how to handle firearms, whatever. But when we're talking about people, there is a missing link a little bit around this is learning and you are learning. How to be a leader, even though here you are a fully functional adult already, but you're gonna still learn something. Katrina: Well, and there's there is something in what you are doing as a leader that you need to practice. Jill: Yeah. Katrina: And it's getting really specific with that behavior. You know, and and and you're talking about in in to helping people know how they learn, you are creating transfer motivation because because you're acknowledging that people have to do the work. They've Jill: Yeah. Katrina: got to put some effort in to get something out. Jill: Yes. Katrina: In in if you've ever sat on anything that I do virtually and you got there early, or sometimes I intentionally make you stay, is there is a short Jill: Yeah. Katrina: video on attention that everybody has to watch in the waiting room. It's you know, what it what it's about attention, it's about like getting rid of your distractions, which is all about learning. It is all about like do these Jill: okay. Yeah. Yeah. Katrina: things so you can be here. And I think When we think about attention and we think about that the word engagement especially, we've gotta help people understand it. We've gotta help people know how to be present so Jill: Mm-hmm. Katrina: that that learning can happen, so that we can get to the leadership stuff, so that they can get to transferring it to the workplace. Jill: I'm having this other epiphany that another critical part is helping those leaders understand that then they are the learning facilitator for the people on their team. So when you go back and you say, okay, now I want you to do this this way, and they don't magically do it that way, helping them understand why it is they maybe haven't magically done it the way, even though you told them, you told them how to do it. This is a whole Katrina: Yes. Jill: this is yeah, okay. This is a whole new lens. Katrina: One of my favorite things that I that I've done in my career for years, and if many people some few few people listening may even have been part of this, I did I facilitated the 80-hour requirement that state employees had to do. I did it for Jill: Yes. Katrina: years through through SAC state. And one of the things that I got included in that 80 hours was a section on. How people learn. Jill: Mm. Katrina: I don't know that it's there anymore. but Jill: Yeah. Katrina: it's been a long time since I've been part of that program. But I thought it but for the same reason. Like as a leader, as a supervisor, as a manager, you need to understand that so that you you get Jill: Yes, yes. Katrina: while people why why people aren't doing what you've asked them to do. I developed it as a class for a client Jill: Mm-hmm. Katrina: and we offered it a few times. it and it was specifically, I don't, I don't remember the name, but it was something like learning for managers or you Jill: Mm-hmm. Katrina: Something along that. But we couldn't get managers to come because managers are so busy. Like there's there's the rub, right? Yeah. Jill: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that until you are able to sit down with someone and talk to them about this or in a a class, they're maybe not seeing themselves as helping other people learn, right? As learning facilitators. I think that's probably gonna be my leadership moment, but I I'm already I'm jumping the gun here. Katrina: That's okay. That's okay. So I will go ahead and thank you for having the discussion with me about transfer effectiveness. We Jill: Yeah, this was great. Yes, this was really good. Katrina: we could go on any one of the segments of the twelve, like for a long time. So Jill, Jill: I know. Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. Katrina: what is your leadership moment from this episode? Jill: leaders are learners. And I think I I mean I think we all hear the you have to keep learning, you learning until you die or whatever. If you're not learning or dead or whatever those those trips are, but w I which I believe in also, but I think we as leaders have to learn how do we learn? Because then we help. other people learn and learning is where some of the behavior change that we're looking for in the workplace is actually going to happen. And that is something we just don't talk about enough. And now after this conversation, I'm gonna talk about more. It's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. Katrina: Excellent. All right. Always I'm always happy to talk about it. It is my favorite subject. Jill: I love it. Thank you for letting me interview you and for telling us all about your your good knowledge. This was this was really helpful. So I appreciate you. Katrina: I appreciate you. All right. Thanks. Jill: Bye, thank you.