النص الكامل لحلقة Dean Burry – Inside the Mind of an Opera Storyteller

way to do my two passions, right? 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:47.839 To do the theater. 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:51.680 I, when I graduated with my master's in composition, I got more work as an actor. 00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:55.360 I played Seymour in Little Shop of Horrors out on the on the East Coast. 00:04:55.439 --> 00:04:58.160 And so I've had that experience of being on the stage. 00:04:58.240 --> 00:05:00.800 And so I come, that's that's what it is for me. 00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:03.839 It's opera because opera is every art form wrapped into one. 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:16.480 If I came back, uh, you know, if after I die, if I get reincarnated, reincarnated, I'd love to be like a props designer or a lighting designer, or I just every aspect of it is so fascinating and exciting to me. 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:21.920 And it's just the the composing and the and the libretto is the is the angle that I came in on. 00:05:22.959 --> 00:05:24.720 And have you ever had to do those? 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:33.199 Because as someone who's had a varied career in theater, I can tell you once you get in, you end up oping lights all of a sudden, or you end up with it. 00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:38.000 Especially like when you're talking about when you're talking about Canadian theater or you're talking about Canadian opera schools. 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:43.839 But so I for 17 years, I ran the after school opera program at the Canadian Opera Company. 00:05:44.000 --> 00:06:05.040 It's um when I finished my master's at U of T, I got a job working in the box office at the COC actually, uh, and managed to kind of change that, like over the course of that nine-month contract, get a job in the education, doing like their um their after school opera programs at community centers around the city, but also like workshops in schools and that kind of thing. 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:11.120 The after school opera program was I would go to four different community centers around the city four days a week. 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:14.240 So every Monday for 10 weeks, I'd be at one community center. 00:06:14.319 --> 00:06:18.480 And I'd, with those seven to 12 year olds, I'd write a new opera with them. 00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:28.000 And then, of course, to answer your question, I'd head back down to the, you know, one of the rooms at the COC, go to the dollar store and get stuff and make the props and make the sets. 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:32.000 Now, as the program kind of advanced, we had more and more people coming in. 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:37.839 Oftentimes we'd hire professional mask makers or professional designers to come in and work with them. 00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:40.959 Um, and we had a few volunteers over the years that came in as well. 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:54.480 But I always loved that, okay, now I need to go make a giant pig's head that can turn into a minotaur, or now I need to go to make, you know, traditional Chinese masks, or now I need to go make, you know, spears for this opera or that opera. 00:06:54.560 --> 00:06:55.279 And I loved it. 00:06:55.439 --> 00:06:56.399 I absolutely loved it. 00:06:56.560 --> 00:07:05.279 In fact, I tell people, like when they're producing my operas, there can be all sorts of level involvement when you're the composer andor librettist, right? 00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:06.879 Sometimes it can be annoying. 00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:12.079 And I know that there are plenty of directors that are like, oh my God, tell the composer and director, I don't want any more notes. 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:14.160 Like we I we've got to do this, right? 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:23.600 But literally, I, you know, I said, uh, you know, I'm happy to be involved whoever I can, but I love seeing the set designs and the costume designs and stuff like that, all that stuff. 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:30.079 And I think it comes back again to that love of theater and music, and even going further than that, storytelling. 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:35.920 I'm a I'm a composer by trade, but I deep down what I am is a storyteller for sure. 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:42.800 So if you start from storytelling, what is it that draws you to a story? 00:07:42.959 --> 00:08:03.759 Because as I think about the the things of yours that I've seen, they they and and you talk about, you know, a piece about the Newfoundland Regiment, and you talk, and maybe Kintyre was based on a piece from the news, and I've seen your version of The Hobbit that was written for the Canadian Children's Opera Company, I think. 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:05.519 At least that's who I saw before. 00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:12.639 Um so you've you've done a lot of things that have been drawn from a variety of sources. 00:08:12.800 --> 00:08:15.439 What draws you to a particular story? 00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:24.639 Yeah, I think, you know, and one of the great things about having been able to do so many pieces over the years, it's it's allowed me to try a lot of different things, right? 00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:33.039 Um some of the pieces like traditional opera are drawn from those sources of myth and fairy tales. 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:38.320 So we have the Brothers Grim, we have the Brementown musicians that are taken from fairy tales. 00:08:38.480 --> 00:08:43.759 We have the Scorpion Sting, which is another piece I wrote for the Canadian Opera Company, which is taken from Egyptian mythology. 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:56.320 Also Pandora's Locker, which is a which is a teen opera that I wrote for the Glenn Gould School back in 2006, again, drawing from Greek mythology in the same way that the early operas did all the time. 00:08:56.559 --> 00:09:00.240 Um, but then it's it's things like Baby Kantyre as well, right? 00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:04.240 Which is a very gritty like news story down to earth right now. 00:09:04.559 --> 00:09:14.399 It's, I think that when I when I think of everything, again, we're talking about the Hobbit epic, uh, Bells of Bedeck, kind of is the

real a real story about, you know, two you know Canadian historical figures. 00:09:14.639 --> 00:09:20.240 Um a musical I wrote about Mary Pickford, the the silent film star and that kind of thing, right? 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:25.919 It's I I think all of these things, it's about finding the poetics within them, right? 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:27.519 The poetry within the story. 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:33.759 And you know, also I think another thing, it's it's interesting because I just did a big project involving Alex Colville. 00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:36.720 So it was a big symphonic work called Tracing Colville. 00:09:36.799 --> 00:09:38.559 Alex Colville is the Canadian painter. 00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:42.639 In the Second World War, he was a war artist and traveled over to Europe and painted. 00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:48.480 And so I kind of followed his journey a few years back and then wrote a symphonic piece inspired by that. 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:53.519 Uh, Colville is often described as finding the myth in the ordinary. 00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:59.120 Uh, and what that means is if you look at a Colville painting, it's a very commonplace scene. 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:02.799 People standing at the fridge at night, sitting around at the table. 00:10:02.960 --> 00:10:09.440 But he's finding the myth, the bigger epic story within that everyday thing, right? 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:19.360 And in and in kind of writing a little bit more and thinking a little bit more about that, I think I'm whereas he's finding the myth in the ordinary, I'm trying to find the ordinary in the myth, right? 00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:32.960 So when you take a piece like The Brothers Grim or Isis or something like that, I the Scorpion Sting, what I'm really interested in is the human story that's in those bigger tales, which is a good way to work, I think, for young people, right? 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:38.240 Because the trappings of those epic stories will grab people and pull them in, right? 00:10:38.399 --> 00:10:47.440 But instead of just making it a um, instead of it just making an archetypal distance kind of story, it's finding the humanity within it. 00:10:47.519 --> 00:10:53.759 And I say, well, one thing in the opera world that I will kind of connect to this is you know, Wagner's operas. 00:10:54.159 --> 00:10:59.919 They're very long, you know, they do tend to be very long and very impenetrable for a lot of people, right? 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:08.240 But taking a look at the ring cycle specifically, and and some of the ring cycle, again, I I find it a little impenetrable myself. 00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:09.600 But Valkyrie. 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:19.440 Valkyrie was one that I came to, and again, it's a five-hour Wagner opera, but at the heart, and it seems like it's about these big things, these big gods and everything like that. 00:11:19.679 --> 00:11:22.639 But at the heart, it's about a father and a daughter, right? 00:11:22.799 --> 00:11:27.840 Um, and I remember

when I saw the COC's ring cycle back in 2006, I think it was. 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:33.519 Um, it that that father-daughter relationship really connected with me in a big time, right? 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:35.039 So again, it's that idea. 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:46.080 I I would say I like stories that um we can show that there's big drama within uh simple things, but also those big things that we love, Star Wars, Hobbit. 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:48.000 I mean, I I'm a big geek as well, too. 00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:49.200 So I love all that stuff. 00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:53.279 But within all those big archetypal stories, what's the humanity? 00:11:53.600 --> 00:12:00.080 Um, you talked about that's some of what drew you to working, working with children. 00:12:00.159 --> 00:12:12.879 Now, was the the work that you did at the COC when you worked your way into their education program, was that was that your first time working with younger people, or was this something that you've always done? 00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:14.159 Not not really. 00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:18.799 I mean, it's something that so in high school, I remember I mentioned I grew up in Ghana, Newfoundland. 00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:20.399 There was no saxophone teacher. 00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:23.840 So honestly, um, eventually my parents would drive me into St. 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:26.240 John's to have my proper saxophone. 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:33.039 But by grade, by grade 10, after two years of playing the saxophone, I started teaching the grade eight saxophone students. 00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:36.000 So, you know, I had I had you know young people there as well. 00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:42.080 When I was at Mount Allison doing my undergraduate, I ran a composition camp in the summer that had five-year-olds. 00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:56.559 And that was really, really useful as well, too, because you know, composing-wise, when you're teaching, you get a lot of people, especially like, you know, more grown-up people, more adult people who get in their own heads and say, Oh, I need to have like Royal Conservatory grade eight theory before I can start composing. 00:12:56.720 --> 00:13:02.480 But the concept of composing, if you pick up a crayon and make a mark, that's art, right? 00:13:02.799 --> 00:13:05.600 So being creative with sound is composing as well. 00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:10.879 And five-year-olds can do that just as well, if not better, in some cases, than older people as well, right? 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:15.840 So I would say that I always, there was always a connection with um children. 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:20.240 I also mentioned that I just love Star Wars and Spider-Man and all that stuff. 00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:27.279 So I feel like, listen, I think this is one of the big things that's a problem as we grow up, we lose that sense of wonder. 00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:40.240 And I would say with every bone in my body, I've yes, tried to grow up and pay taxes and all that kind of

stuff, but to hold on to that real wonder, I think that doesn't necessarily just benefit me as someone who works with young people. 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:42.799 I think it just benefits me as an artist, right? 00:13:42.879 --> 00:13:45.679 You know, um, to be able to continually tap into that. 00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:48.080 So I again working with with young people. 00:13:48.159 --> 00:14:00.720 I I also feel that um, like I know a lot of people, like if you're if you go to see the Vienna Philharmonic, or if you go to see the Metropolitan Opera or something like that, you know, there's something fantastic about seeing artists working at that level. 00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:12.799 But for some reason, I've always been, as long as the heart is there, then I get as moved by performances by amateur children or amateur adults as I do from seeing these larger works, right? 00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:20.480 So I think um the combination of working with young people, and sometimes those are very highly accomplished young people, right? 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:25.200 The Canadian Children's Opera Company is not just a pickup choir. 00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:29.039 Like the this is the pinnacle of young people singing, right? 00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:42.879 And so it's not just that you're working with that, but also the combination of working on that level, but with community groups, I think has given me like a um an appreciation of what it means to be an arts creator at every level. 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:48.000 Well, you aren't necessarily actively teaching children at this p point in your life. 00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:50.799 You are working at Queen's University. 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:52.559 What do you teach there? 00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:54.080 Nothing. 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:55.840 Yeah, so I teach music theory. 00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:57.759 No, I do not teach saxophone. 00:14:57.919 --> 00:14:58.159 That's right. 00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:00.480 I haven't really touched it in a long time. 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:23.679 Um I uh so I'm teaching music theory, obviously, but then uh musical composition, and like one of my favorite courses is called Music Theater Creation Lab, which is a course where the students for themselves come up with the theme of a piece, they write the libretto, they write the lyrics, they write the music, they direct it, they create a poster, they create their little set, they perform it. 00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:30.240 So it really is all I guess it again, it comes back to, and I have to mention, Michael, like when we talk about where this kind of came from. 00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:32.720 I talked about high school in grade four. 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:38.639 My mom and I made a puff a puppet theater, and she took my some of my sisters' old stuffed animals. 00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:44.480 Um, I don't know if she asked my sister or not, but took my sister's old stuffed animals and turned them into puppets. 00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:56.960 And every the

last Friday of every month in grade four, my our teacher would get the students to turn their desks around and I would do a puppet show that I had written with songs and the back of the classroom. 00:15:57.200 --> 00:16:01.120 So I feel like I've doing been doing the same thing for a very, very long time. 00:16:01.279 --> 00:16:06.480 I'm really blessed to be able to be doing the thing that I think I was drawn to be doing from a very early point. 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:09.759 Well, you're blessed in a number of ways. 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:17.039 I talked about the fact that I had that you were receiving subsequent productions of works this year. 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:26.639 Now, The Baby Kintire, which was at the Glen Gould School, it was written originally as a radio opera. 00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:30.960 Uh it was performed on the CBC as a radio opera. 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:35.120 Had it been staged before, or was this the first staging of it? 00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:36.879 No, it had never been staged. 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:40.240 And again, like once again, by so that was 2009. 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:44.159 I'd probably written about seven or eight operas by that point. 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:49.679 So another thing is you're always trying to think of what's the next kind of way to work? 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:50.639 What's something different? 00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:52.480 Like what's a different project, right? 00:16:52.639 --> 00:17:03.919 And so Baby Contire, so just for people listening in a quick story, in 2007, uh there was a contractor working on a house in uh the east end of Toronto, Broadview and Queen. 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:08.640 And in the floorboards of the house he was working at, he found a bundle that was wrapped in a comforter. 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:09.599 He pulled that apart. 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:14.319 There was another another bundle wrapped in a newspaper dated September 15th, 1925. 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:21.759 When he opened that up, there was a mummified baby, about a four-month-old baby inside that had clearly been placed there in 1925. 00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:26.400 Made international news stories, like it was on Chinese news, it was all over the place. 00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:32.319 But I kind of put it out of my mind until about a month later, it was Labor Day of 2007. 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:45.920 We were uh my wife and kids and I were driving back from uh the in-laws cottage from the from the long weekend, and they were all asleep in the car, and there was this news story about some reporters who had gone to find out, to try to find out who that baby might have been. 00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:57.680 And they didn't find out who the baby was, but what they found was a 94-year-old woman who was living in that house at the time and recounted this like Agatha Christie-like story of characters and plot. 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:02.559 And listening to it in the car, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is this isn't this isn't

an opera, right? 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:03.599 You know, they were asleep. 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:12.240 We got we got back, I got out of the car, I emailed CBC, and that can be a challenging call as well, or an email as well, to get a response, right? 00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:20.559 So I emailed the producer, Mary Weens, at Metro Morning, who had done the story, and within about an hour, she got back to me and said, let's do it. 00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:25.039 Like I said, I said, this might be crazy, but I'd love to write an opera about this piece. 00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:32.480 So, and but event, again, eventually, the story was so involved with the radio and connected with the radio, it just seemed like it made sense. 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:39.680 The other advantage is as opera composers, we write our pieces and then desperately try to get good recordings. 00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:44.319 So why not go the other direction and start with the great recording? 00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:49.599 Were you able to get the rights to release that as a recording? 00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:57.519 Yeah, we actually got the we got it licensed, and so it was released on the Centerdisc's uh Naxos of Canada label through the Canadian Music Center. 00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:02.960 So in 2014, that was released as a commercial recording, and you can hear it on on your platforms. 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:08.799 Well, and I would encourage everyone too, because I thought it was a fascinating piece when I got to see it live this year. 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:10.880 It wasn't one I knew before. 00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:12.160 What is it like? 00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:16.880 What's the experience like returning to a work for for a subsequent production? 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:21.119 Do you do you sit there listening, thinking of all the things that you've always wanted to change? 00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:23.200 Do you actually try to get in and change them? 00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:26.400 What what what's the experience for you as a composer? 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:28.160 Yeah, sometimes that's the case. 00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:36.480 I mean, it's you know, some of these things, like when we talk about second productions, sometimes it's a like for example, Baby Cantire, right, which was on the radio. 00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:43.519 And this was really the first, I think it was done in a in a used in a workshop in Manitoba in 2010 or something like that. 00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:45.759 But this really was the first staging, right? 00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:51.039 So it was uh it was like kind of coming back and kind of thinking about, and of course we've got the recording, right? 00:19:51.200 --> 00:20:03.920 So the fact that I didn't tell them that you pronounce uh lath and plaster, lath and plaster, not lave and plaster, um, is a chance to kind of correct some of those things that were, you know, were not there. 00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:07.359 And listen, we grow, like I mean, as as we do work, right?

00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:12.480 We uh we grow, and there's, you know, places where that half note does not need to be held that long. 00:20:12.559 --> 00:20:18.319 It would be much more dramatic if it was just a quarter note, you know, or maybe the scansion is not quite as good, right? 00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:21.920 So um oftentimes they're not major things. 00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:29.119 I do have some works that I think that if they if they did come back, I would love the chance to kind of like reimagine and revisit them. 00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:32.160 Um, in fact, actually that that is the case as well. 00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:34.319 Smaller pieces like so the Brothers Grimm. 00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:41.599 So the Brothers Grimm, which was done by the Canadian Opera Company in 2001, is a 45-minute piece for piano and five singers. 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:44.000 We had a really strong workshop process. 00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:47.599 And by the time that went out, um, I felt really, really good about it. 00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:57.440 The other interesting thing about that, when we talk about remounts or reproductions, every time an opera company does one of those small school tour operas, they do it like 40 times. 00:20:57.680 --> 00:21:01.599 So some of the operas that I've done have been done hundreds of times, right? 00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:07.279 And so of those, those I consider kind of like, okay, they're they're they they're proven, they work as is, right? 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:08.799 But there are other pieces as well. 00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:21.200 So, for example, in 2010, I wrote the second piece I wrote for the Canadian Children's Opera Company, which was called The Secret World of Aug by uh it's a children's book by Pierre Burton. 00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:23.119 And so the C the CCOC did it then. 00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:28.000 And I was happy with the production, but it was also at the tail end of a bunch of productions. 00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:33.200 So 2009, within 10 months, I had about six operas premiere. 00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:38.640 It was a creature of habit, uh, this mermaid opera at Rising Tide Theater in Newfoundland. 00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:42.960 It was The Mummer's Mask, uh, which was done by Toronto Mask Theater. 00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:52.640 It was Brementown Musicians with Opera Lyra, it was Baby Cantyre, it was Angela and her sisters with University of Manitoba and Secret World of Aug. 00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:57.200 So it was like, and I'm I also remember I had like a two year old at the time. 00:21:57.359 --> 00:21:59.759 So most of those operas got written at two o'clock in the morning. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.000 Morning in my very cool basement. 00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:06.880 But again, so it was like that was a piece that I was happy with what went up. 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:12.640 But then in 2016 Sarasota Opera in the States wanted to do it, they've done the Holland as well. 00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:14.799 And again, they always do very large productions. 00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:17.039 So they commissioned like a larger orchestration as well. 00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:22.160 And I thought this is a chance to kind of just take my time and revisit this, right? 00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:26.079 And so I really feel, yeah, I made some fairly substantial changes. 00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:32.160 And a work that I felt okay about, suddenly I felt like, wow, this might be one of my new favorite works, right? 00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:34.960 So it's it's always important to kind of be open to that. 00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:41.759 Uh, the other thing I will say is even when a work is set, different people sing it every single time, you know. 00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:48.160 Um, now, you know, I've got my Dover scores back here, and generally you're not going to make major note changes for Bohem. 00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:51.200 You're going to hire people that sing those notes, right? 00:22:51.599 --> 00:23:05.039 But every time I do a production, especially if it's young people or young artists, so like artist studio kind of, you know, people on the verge of their professional careers, subtle little changes can make that better for them. 00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:08.799 And my opinion is if they sound good, I sound good. 00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:18.480 So I've never been very kind of like precious about if if a coach or if a music director or something comes and says, can we alter this note or can we change this slightly? 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:19.839 I'm like, go for it. 00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:27.200 I I mean, it's important that I get asked, but uh most of the time when that happens, it's like, yeah, if you sound good, I sound good. 00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:28.079 So let's do it. 00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:36.079 Let's talk about the Brothers Grimm because of course it is coming up for the Canadian Opera Company in March of this year. 00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:39.279 I think they're doing it as part of their March break programming. 00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:40.319 Is that correct? 00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:48.799 It is during that, yeah, it's part of their March break programming, but it's also kind of part of the free concert series at the Richard Bradshaw Amphitheater. 00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:49.599 Okay. 00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:53.279 And who is, do you know who's singing this time? 00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:56.319 I don't know all the names. 00:23:56.480 --> 00:24:00.079 I do know Andrea Ludwig is singing um Dwarchen. 00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:04.319 Not Dortchen, uh, Frau Wiemann, the fruit seller who also plays the wolf. 00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:08.960 And uh I think out of the ones that are there, Andrea has did it before. 00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:12.799 I think she was in like the third tour way, way, way back when. 00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:18.000 Um, and so uh so there is gonna be some like some pedigree, right? 00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:19.599 There is gonna be some some connection. 00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:32.000 But

I mean, that's there's there was a while when it felt like it was hard to cast a stone and not hit someone that had been in the brother's grim because it was, and again, this is this is an incredible blessing. 00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:38.799 It was the, you know, so in 2001, it was the smallest opera at the biggest opera company in Canada, right? 00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:41.680 And this was my my my first big commissioned opera. 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:47.440 But again, uh like 40 production, like 40 shows that first year. 00:24:47.599 --> 00:24:52.319 And every time they brought it back, they would tour it over four weeks and do 40 shows, right? 00:24:52.480 --> 00:25:04.559 So it's like, and then Opera Nuova started picked it up, and then Calgary Opera and University of Manitoba and Little Opera on the Prairie, and then moving to Wales and moving to like so places that needed, it's a niche, right? 00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:19.440 So I always tell composers writing for children is or for children's pieces, either writing for children to perform or for adults to perform for children, which is what the Brothers Grim is, is not a bad idea because a lot of times I think composers look at that as being lesser work. 00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:20.799 It's a paycheck, right? 00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:22.480 I'm a serious composer. 00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:27.599 So uh, you know, writing operas for young people is a paycheck, right? 00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:31.359 Whereas it I've never compromised my artistry at all. 00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:40.880 You know, I feel like I feel like the way I want to speak works with children, it all which means it also really works with people who are unfamiliar with opera, right? 00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:44.160 I I don't, I don't, I don't shy away from the word accessibility. 00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:49.599 It doesn't mean that it's always like, I don't write kitty music, I don't write singy songy music or that kind of thing. 00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:52.400 Um but accessible can mean something different, right? 00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:59.920 You can still be fresh and original and contemporary, but still be penetrable, like something that can welcome people in, right? 00:26:00.319 --> 00:26:10.000 Um and so uh so you know, I'm I was really fortunate that that first piece, that the, you know, the Brothers Grim was something that got done over and over and over again. 00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:19.839 So there are hundreds, like there are literally hundreds of alumni that have done that work, you know, as their as one of their first pieces, you know, when they were young artists, right? 00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:27.920 That that must be really important to you to have been a part of their histories in that way. 00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:29.039 It it is. 00:26:29.119 --> 00:26:34.799 And like, I mean, that question, we I think as artists, I know I do, and I'm sure most people do as well too. 00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:36.799 We ask that questions of relevancy, right? 00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:49.359 Like I have my my my cousin who's a pharmacist, or you know, friends who are doctors or social workers, like the ones doing school teachers for that matter, doing like really, really important, impactful work. 00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:51.680 And I think opera composer, right? 00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:53.039 Opera composer, what it is. 00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:58.079 But then, like the brothers' grim, about 150,000 kids have seen the brothers' grimm. 00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:01.359 It was probably their first introduction to opera. 00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:15.920 And I sat, because again, I was in Toronto and the Canadian Opera Company did these tours, I sat at like many, many school gyms with 300 kids in front of me, knowing that they were into it, knowing that they were loving it, right? 00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:21.359 So, if nothing else, those pieces are the ones that make me feel like I've really been able to have some impact. 00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:31.200 That must be a terrifying experience because you talked about some composers may feel it's writing down or this is a paycheck when you're when you're writing. 00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:38.640 But honestly, an audience of young people will let you know exactly what they feel at every moment. 00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:41.599 You there is But that's what's great about it. 00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:42.799 Oh, absolutely. 00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:44.240 But I think that's what's absolutely great. 00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:54.240 You know, the worst, the worst thing is to come out of an of an opera or a piece of contemporary music or something, and everybody stands around and says how interesting it was, right? 00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:58.400 You know, like which is that, you know, damning with faint praise kind of thing, right? 00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:06.880 Oftentimes, or or even even worse sometimes is people that can't people can't just come out and say, I loved it, right? 00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:10.880 Because then someone else is going to intellectualize into why you shouldn't love it or something. 00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:14.720 That's the that's our that's our social world that we're in today, right? 00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:19.119 Um, that's and again, that comes up with one of those problems when we grow up. 00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:21.039 Young people don't have that problem. 00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:27.839 They either hate it or they love it, and there's something so refreshing about that, right? 00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:29.440 And you you know it, you know it. 00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:31.039 They they cheer, right? 00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:36.240 They cheer in ways that that adults feel like they can't do, right? 00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:47.039 So I I would say that is, yes, and like I will say, if everyone is like yawning and like fidgeting and stuff like that, yeah, that can be like, all right, this is when I need to go back and rework for sure. 00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:54.319 Um, but that

unbridled emotional response is is exactly what I would want, anyways, right? 00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:01.119 Just as a matter of interest, if if it premiered in 2001, you said, correct? 00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:07.839 That means that the first audiences for it would probably be in their mid-30s now. 00:29:08.799 --> 00:29:12.799 Have you have you ever met anyone who saw it as a child, who had that experience? 00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:13.519 I did. 00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:13.920 I did. 00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:15.839 In fact, I met someone here at Queens. 00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:22.559 So I uh I'm the artistic director of the Watershed Festival, which is a festival that we run here, which is an opera music theater festival. 00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:26.079 And um, we had a New Works Showcase call a couple of years ago. 00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:31.680 And so people could send in uh proposals to do short videos of things that they were working on. 00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:45.119 And there was um a woman who got in contact and was one of the people that we had selected for uh the New Works Showcase, and she basically said, I saw this opera in Ottawa in 2008. 00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:48.640 That would have been an opera lira production in 2008. 00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:56.000 And what she said was, I have a German background, and it was the first piece, I think she was 10 or something like that. 00:29:56.160 --> 00:29:58.240 She said, My background is German. 00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:06.079 This is the first time that I've seen German Germanic culture portrayed positively in media in my life, right? 00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:14.000 And so again, not only was it like the opera meant something, but uh a big because that was something I tried to do as well, too. 00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:21.759 I tried to kind of include that as a sense of to bring in like the Germanness of it, you know, and to know that that had that impact. 00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:24.319 Again, like incredible, incredible. 00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:31.440 Oh, you know, and the thing is that's the brother's grim, but all of these things, Hobbit premiered in 2004, you know, on Facebook, I'm friends with them. 00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:32.880 They have like three kids now. 00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:39.920 There's doctors, there's lawyers, they're, you know, they're all sorts of things that were in that piece and had that shared moment, right? 00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:49.200 So again, I think it's another advantage of working so much with young people is that you're you're in that pivotal position to make a big change, right? 00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:54.799 And if you can do it well, then you're kind of connected with them the whole rest of their lives, right? 00:30:55.440 --> 00:31:07.200 And I certainly believe that children who participate in, even children who just attend theatrical performances, that that has an important impact on them. 00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:10.640 No, and and it's like, you know, this is this is our competition, right? 00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:12.160 Like everything else, right? 00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:15.039 It's your phone or it's the phones and that kind of thing. 00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:24.960 So I think I think a lot of young people are kind of astounded when they get brought into a live um production, and it's something which is so different, you know, from what they do. 00:31:25.119 --> 00:31:28.960 But uh but Michael, like it that's a big responsibility as well, right? 00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:31.279 If if this is my chance, right? 00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:34.960 Um, like so, for example, um a couple other productions. 00:31:35.119 --> 00:31:38.559 Uh I don't know how I got so lucky, but there's a bunch of productions happening on this year. 00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:48.559 And so I wrote a I wrote a symphonic work um based on Jacob Tutu Meets the Hooded Fang by Mordecai Richler back in 2016 for the Montreal Chamber Music Festival. 00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:54.960 And there's a group in Toronto that's doing it, North York Concert Orchestra, uh in on March 14th, I think. 00:31:55.119 --> 00:31:58.400 Then Thunder Bass Symphony is doing it, and then Kingston Symphony is doing it here. 00:31:58.480 --> 00:32:01.839 And I'm actually narrating the Toronto and the Kingston one. 00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:09.200 The Kingston with Kingston Symphony, when they do it, they bring in all the grade fours for the whole school board, right? 00:32:09.279 --> 00:32:11.279 Um, and we'll be doing school shows that way. 00:32:11.359 --> 00:32:13.920 And like this is I get one crack, right? 00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:20.880 I get one crack at these at showing these grade four students what the symphony orchestra is, what live performance is. 00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:23.039 And damn it, it better be good, right? 00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:26.559 Like it better be something engaging that makes that impact, right? 00:32:26.720 --> 00:32:30.880 So I can't be there can't be like a lot of BS, right? 00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:33.920 Like, I mean, it it needs to speak to people directly. 00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:43.279 Again, if you if if you're clever about it, you can take them into ways into directions that they're not necessarily familiar with and and and introduce them to new things, which you should absolutely. 00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:49.839 But you want this to be, I I often use the um the metaphor of like if you go to a rock climbing gym, right? 00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:58.160 If you go to a rock climbing gym and there's no hand holds on the wall, no one is gonna get to the top and everyone's gonna be frustrated, right? 00:32:58.400 --> 00:33:03.519 If you go to a rock climbing gym and there's an escalator, everyone's gonna get to the top. 00:33:03.759 --> 00:33:05.440 But what's the point, right? 00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:14.799 So it's just so whether it's a piece for young people or or adults, definitely, there needs to be enough hand holds there so that it's a bit of a challenge to get

through it. 00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:20.799 There's some work to kind of get through it, but everyone can get to the top and feel satisfied by that, right? 00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:22.880 Feel like that they've come through something. 00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:25.039 So that's that's your challenge right there. 00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:31.839 I think that sounds like a really noble aim, and it might be a good place for us to finish this. 00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:35.119 Um, I think I'm sensing that we're at time. 00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:47.680 Um, before we leave, I'm going to remind people the Brothers Grim, which according to the COC website, has been performed over 600 times since it premiered in 2001. 00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:58.880 It's being performed on Wednesday, March 18th at 12 noon as part of the COC's free concert series in the Richard Bradshaw Amphitheater. 00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:16.159 I would encourage everybody, particularly those of you with children who are looking for things to do that week, to come out and see it, to come out and hear it and engage with this piece because it is important and it will it will matter for your child. 00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:26.320 But I would also advise you to come out early because for those of you who've not attended the free lunch and concert series, people will line up early to get those seats. 00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:34.400 So you will want to arrive a little early and have something to occupy your child until the performance begins at 12. 00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:45.599 That's that is The Brothers Grim by Dean Murray being performed at the C at the COC's lunchtime free concert series on Wednesday, March 18th. 00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:48.800 Visit coc.ca for details. 00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:51.760 Thank you so much, Dean, for joining us. 00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:54.320 It has been an it's been amazing to talk to you. 00:34:54.400 --> 00:35:02.320 And I I think we should sometimes do a second session because we didn't actually get to talk about the process of composing and what that's about. 00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:08.159 Or are you just teasing me so that I'll have another composer on to talk about their process as well? 00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:10.159 Oh gosh, no, you should do that. 00:35:10.239 --> 00:35:12.960 But uh, you know, most of us are pretty good at talking, you know. 00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:17.840 If you get us talking about our works, uh then uh I'd be I'd be happy to be back. 00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:25.760 And again, thanks for the work of Opera Canada as well, too, because I mean, like a community like this in Canada, an opera community, takes so many different aspects. 00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:30.800 And we know, you know, there are lots of performers, there are lots of people who are putting the thing on stage. 00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:43.440 Um, but it's it's it's also people like composers who kind of get that work to get out there, but also um things like Opera Canada magazine, which kind of broaden it a sense and and increase awareness so much. 00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:46.320 Um so it's been a it's a real pleasure to talk to you for sure. 00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:52.159 Well, and it is it's it is a pleasure to talk to you, and I believe that that's important work. 00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:56.239 I like to think of us as a bridge between the company and the public. 00:35:57.119 --> 00:35:58.079 One conduit. 00:35:58.320 --> 00:36:07.840 There are many, many, many bridges, but one conduit to help people understand and engage with what I think is a spectacular and wonderful art form. 00:36:08.159 --> 00:36:13.039 So thank you for joining us, and thank you to our listeners for being here with us this week.