النص الكامل لحلقة Power For Refugee Settlements

dynamic. 00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:12.399 And there are definitely some really cool ways that that works out as a mini-grid company in ways that make off-grid electrification, you could say, more, I guess, more interesting than in regular villages. 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:13.519 All right. 00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:19.279 More interesting because there is more density, as Amy said earlier. 00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:32.560 Because most likely there are a lot of people from different areas at the same spot, probably with some trade happening, because there's no processing there, right? 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:36.879 At least it takes time until local economies develop. 00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:40.800 So basically you're supplying electricity for lighting and television, aren't you? 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:44.319 I love that question because no, Nico, not at all. 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:53.360 That is, I think, what everybody thinks of when you picture these long, endless rows of tents and people just kind of in their squalor or whatever. 00:05:53.439 --> 00:06:01.519 But actually, whenever you get hundreds of thousands of people together, like in Kenya's refugee camps, you know, in the Kakuma area and Dadab area, economies develop. 00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:04.399 People bring their skills, people even sometimes bring their machinery. 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:19.199 And you'll find that large areas within both of the camps honestly look like well-developed parts of Nairobi in terms of the economic activity, not in terms of the overall infrastructure provision, unfortunately, but in terms of what's going on, what people are using machines to accomplish. 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:22.319 Grain milling, small, metal workshops, small. 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:24.800 This is all the stuff that we dream of in our villages. 00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:28.560 But then in the refugee camps, we just think, oh yeah, there's another one. 00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:30.240 There's 20 more where that came from. 00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:34.240 In Kakuma, for example, we're currently powering four huge boreholes. 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:41.360 We're powering an equity bank branch, we're powering multiple SafariCom cell towers, just massive, massive users of electricity. 00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:51.519 Humanitarian compounds, too, which I know we're going to get to later, but just when they're located in the camp itself and they're just another one of our customers, obviously they love air conditioning just as much as I do. 00:06:51.680 --> 00:06:53.920 And so the loads can just become massive. 00:06:54.000 --> 00:07:03.920 And that's why, as much as I'll probably default to the word mini-grid as we talk about this, really metro grid is the more appropriate term for a lot of these settings because the loads are just massive. 00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:11.040 Is it because people in regular villages come from these rural areas? 00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:26.720 Whereas people in refugee camps sometimes can also come from cities, have maybe a different education level, have had a different exposure in their life to commercial economic activities and these kinds of things. 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:36.720 Is that the reason why the dynamics, the economic dynamics in refugee camps are so much different from those in rural villages in Africa? 00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:44.800 I think that's a really large part of it, but I do also think it's kind of just a natural consequence of when you get this many people together. 00:07:44.959 --> 00:07:50.800 Because I know, for example, that in Kakuma, most of the refugees are from South Sudan, and most of those are not from large cities. 00:07:51.040 --> 00:07:58.560 And even the sort of larger cities and towns near the border between Kenya and South Sudan are really not well developed, anyways. 00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:14.959 And so I think just to kind of spitball it, like very many Somali refugees bring that sort of energy, you could say, the sort of urban skills and all that, because you could very plausibly have fled from Mogadishu to Kakuma, for example, at some point in the last 35 years. 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:17.920 But I think then it's also just a natural consequence. 00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:20.079 You get this many people together, people make economies. 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:27.920 So uh desalegans, you at some point decided now it's time to electrify a refugee camp. 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:36.399 We already now learned that refugee camps may be an attractive electrification target, but sometimes they just disappear, right? 00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:43.440 You don't get a guarantee for a refugee camp to exist in 10 years, 15 years, 20 years from now. 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:48.799 On what basis did you take your decision to invest into such an area? 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:50.399 Thank you, Nico. 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:56.159 That's a true risk that refugee uh settlements brings to private investors. 00:08:56.399 --> 00:09:00.799 But uh I mean uh the refugee campus has been there for long. 00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:07.279 On average, if you take Ethiopian refugee campus, their average of the campus is over 15 years. 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:15.039 So, and given the East Africa political situation, they more likely be staying. 00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:24.559 So there have been efforts by the development partners providing solutions, but most of the solution has not been sustainable. 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:40.159 So someone has to take risk, and fortunately, we have a shareholder who is also a humanitarian agency, MercyCore established humanitarian energy PLC to take necessary risk to invest in humanitarian settings. 00:09:40.320 --> 00:09:54.240 So, I mean, someone has to start that, and by the way, we are the only licensed private mini-grid developer in the country, and not alone in the humanitarian setting, but even in the country. 00:09:54.399 --> 00:10:05.120 So that tells you the level of risk initiative that Mercico has

taken to establish humanitarian energy and given a mandate to operate in humanitarian settings. 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:10.480 I mean, the risks are very obvious, but some of the risks are perceived risks. 00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:12.320 That's not really a real risks. 00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:28.080 I mean, refugee camps are there, people are saying that refugees do not pay, but they have clearly demonstrated in shadow, and their average uh monthly consumption are even bigger than some people in some bigger towns. 00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:41.360 So that shows that demand is there, people pay, and with some demand activation work and with few grants, a commercial mini-grid can be a viable option for humanitarian settings. 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:49.600 So, and we took that risk and we continue taking that risk, given that uh we'll get support from uh partners around us. 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:58.399 Yeah, and this Allegheny Mercy Corps is the mother company of your company, Humanitarian Energy PLC. 00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:00.240 And this is an NGO. 00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:09.039 I guess it's a little bit easier to take the decision as an NGO compared to as a private, full-for-profit company. 00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:11.519 And I think that is now a question to Douglas. 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:16.159 What drove you into electrifying refugee camps? 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:18.960 Well, let me just first start by applauding MercyCorps. 00:11:19.039 --> 00:11:21.279 I think it is so cool what they've done in Ethiopia. 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:27.279 It just really shows a flexibility that I think most NGOs don't feel the freedom to have. 00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:32.159 And I just really think the work that you guys are doing in Ethiopia is really amazing. 00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:33.600 So applause to you both. 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:41.840 But as a private company, I mean, the funny answer to this is you know, now hindsight 2020, this was just always a really good idea. 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:43.600 And I don't mean to understate that. 00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:47.919 When we first came, we didn't quite realize what we were getting ourselves into. 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:50.799 So we've been operating in Kakuma since 2019. 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:53.279 We've had a number of different expansion phases. 00:11:53.360 --> 00:11:56.559 And so right now, what's running is a 2.5 Bengal mini-grid. 00:11:56.799 --> 00:11:59.919 12,500 connections are currently using its power. 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:03.039 So call that 65,000 humans or so. 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:05.840 And that obviously didn't happen overnight. 00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:06.879 We're not magicians. 00:12:07.039 --> 00:12:08.159 We had to start small. 00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:18.639 And it kind of worked out well as just showing up, seeing in 2019 that at the time there were 190,000 refugees here and realizing that this is the direction our company is going to take. 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:21.360 This is the most impact we

could possibly make on the world. 00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:28.240 And also just going to be the most commercially successful communities that we could possibly electrify in Kenya. 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:39.600 Very unfortunately, it's impossible for almost any refugees to get a connection to the national utility, KPLC, because of a variety of reasons, but reasons that don't really stack up to making that much sense in the end. 00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:42.159 And it just is what it is, and it's always been that way, right? 00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:48.879 And so there's just this huge market that we can fill and uh you know just sell so many kilowatt hours for such a good cause. 00:12:49.039 --> 00:12:54.080 So I think I don't know, it's the story kind of writes itself when you see the scale and the story and everything. 00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:56.080 I'm so glad that we found our way here. 00:12:56.480 --> 00:13:06.960 If I could add on to that, Nico, just a statistic that came out last year was that 92% of all humanitarian funding asks in 2025 were protracted. 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:09.120 So that means five years or more. 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:17.200 At the GPA, we have estimated that around 40 million displaced people, most living in sub-Saharan Africa, are lacking electricity. 00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:38.399 And then if you take that, less than 92% of that being in protracted context, it really does give you a picture that the risk of closure, unfortunately due to kind of the trends and how conflicts are also not getting resolved so quickly these days, does mean they can be attractive business opportunities, obviously with the right type of subsidy where needed. 00:13:38.720 --> 00:13:44.480 I think it also brings in a question of what type of financing in these many grids or electrification projects. 00:13:44.720 --> 00:13:55.679 And I think one thing to note is that often refugee settlements are outside of the national development planning because they're not considered in the country's national electrification plan. 00:13:56.080 --> 00:14:01.840 Sometimes many grid developers don't know how to access that type of more concessional financing that might be needed. 00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:20.000 So it's something we at the GPA are working on to really outline the market size across three or four countries, all in East Africa, very systematically to see where are the more and less attractive market opportunities and how can we kind of work with private developers to come in and develop more types of mini-grids. 00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:21.440 We have two examples here. 00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:23.519 We want, you know, 100 in place. 00:14:23.679 --> 00:14:31.200 So it's what we're trying to do, you know, speed up that process of understanding the market size and market scoping and seeing where there are those business opportunities. 00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:31.679 Yeah. 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:34.559 Douglas, did you get any subsidies for your project? 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:35.840 Yes, we did. 00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:37.759 And that was extremely helpful. 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:40.320 And I think we'll continue to be at some level. 00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:52.480 And I guess let me start at the end here and say that we are currently fundraising for a major expansion to cover both more refugees and host community members here in Kakoma, and then also in Kenya's other major refugee hosting area, Dadab. 00:14:52.960 --> 00:15:00.159 And there are certain combinations of concessional loan and concessional equity that could work without any grant financing. 00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:02.000 And it's actually a realistic potential. 00:15:02.159 --> 00:15:17.519 But more likely, as with all electrification projects, government or not, grant funding or whatever we want to call it, free money is somehow necessary because we're developing infrastructure from end-to-end that is all the way from the solar panel to the in-home wiring. 00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:21.279 We have no decades of infrastructure to build off of. 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:29.840 This is all fresh, and we are not getting yet, at least, the kind of interest rates that national utilities get, even though I sure think we should. 00:15:30.159 --> 00:15:32.480 So grants will continue to have their place. 00:15:32.799 --> 00:15:37.039 The number of funding partners that we've had here in Kakoma is too long to list. 00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:42.080 I guess the German government has been involved in almost all of them, so I should give them some special thanks. 00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:43.919 But it's been through a wide variety of programs. 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:46.240 And if you want to know more, uh shoot me a text. 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:49.039 But uh yeah, definitely it's necessary. 00:15:49.279 --> 00:15:54.960 I will say the very beginning, we came here because GIZ had a tender and we won it. 00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:57.120 And I mean, we had to have that, right? 00:15:57.279 --> 00:16:06.639 We had to have somebody holding our hands both financially and sort of practically showing us the ropes, um, introducing us both to you know humanitarian actors and to government officials in this area. 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:09.120 So that is, I think, really, really important. 00:16:09.279 --> 00:16:11.360 And it's great to have a start like that. 00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:14.080 But hopefully we're graduating out of that as we go. 00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:14.720 Yeah. 00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:23.200 Um, I mean, it's good also to talk about the opportunities in the humanitarian space, which is not really available in other locations. 00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:34.879 As one of the things with the population size in humanitarian settings is help you build a system of megawatt size so that also help you with the economy of scale. 00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:47.519 And there are also partners supporting refugee settlements, livelihood support, so you can integrate your mini-grid

with livelihood activities operating in the humanitarian space. 00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:51.759 So these are opportunities that any private developer can benefit from. 00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:59.200 We've talked about risks, but the opportunities are also huge, which private sectors can also benefit from the economy of scale. 00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:00.639 All right, thank you. 00:17:01.039 --> 00:17:25.599 So, as in Nensus, we've been uh working for UNHCR through GIZ also at some point, and there it was all about how to hybridize the electricity supply to UN compounds that are set up next to the refugee camps to manage the camps. 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:38.799 And I kept wondering, and I also was asking the question to the UNHCR staff like, if you supply your own compounds, why don't you also supply electricity to the refugees themselves? 00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:46.000 And the answer was well, these are two different budgets and two different work streams that cannot be mixed. 00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:47.680 Amy, can you clarify? 00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:51.680 Can you shed a little bit more light on what we're talking about here? 00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:59.279 Yeah, I mean, so in the first place, often humanitarian offices are not always geographically next to settlements. 00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:00.880 And so that's the first question. 00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:08.000 Is your big load your 200 to 500 kB generator, you know, sitting within five kilometers of a refugee settlement? 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:17.279 But where they are, there are those opportunities where ideally the humanitarian office is really an ideal anchor client to anchor a mini-grid. 00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:21.119 That's where the question of where the money comes from comes in. 00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:26.799 So often the money for solarizing their facilities is in a completely separate budget. 00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:38.160 It's in the facilities and administration budget, which comes from different donors and different funding streams, versus the program budget, which is usually for support to refugees and to host community as well, sometimes. 00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:43.680 That silo of budget lines really does cause issues in capturing some of these opportunities. 00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:47.839 And it's something that we actually really need to break within the humanitarian system. 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:57.839 It's really to look at the whole electricity need in an area and see kind of what is the optimal use of resources there and what is the role of the humanitarian agency. 00:18:58.079 --> 00:19:02.319 Can they enter into a utility type agreement with a mini-grid provider? 00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:06.960 And if so, can that anchor be an anchor for a wider electrification of the community? 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:10.799 So unfortunately, the devil is in the detail of the budget lines here. 00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:16.079 And I'll have to also say the humanitarian sector has gone through a massive

cut in staffing. 00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:19.519 So everyone is really going down to their core mandates. 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:27.519 Unfortunately, energy is sometimes seen as a luxury in these areas when, you know, food and shelter and water are really the primary needs. 00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:44.720 And so instead of having those internal staffing, those internal electrical engineers or business type people who could think through these models with the private sector, unfortunately, that type of stuffing has been let go in recent years due to the very large-scale 30 to 40% funding cuts of these agencies. 00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:47.200 So it's been a bit of a survival game. 00:19:47.359 --> 00:19:57.599 And really, without that internal expertise, at least to make a bridge between the community and the private mini-grid developer to think through these type of models, it's quite hard to get them in place. 00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:06.240 I think also from first principles, there's kind of a good reason for some of this that you definitely do want excellence and service delivery from humanitarians. 00:20:06.319 --> 00:20:11.039 I mean, there are so few of them providing so many critical services to so many beneficiaries. 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:18.000 And I want them doing that with fast internet and cold air conditioning and cold beers. 00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:53.519 But you know, if you sort of could take the solar equipment pricing of now with the better humanitarian funding of the past, maybe it would have made sense for them to build significantly larger power systems than they just need for themselves and then somehow sell to their beneficiaries, which is, I think, another interesting little legalese detail in a way that like they're generally not allowed to sell things to refugees, right? 00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:58.480 But if we could get past that somehow through some sort of contracting, whatever, it's just tough now, right? 00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:00.960 They are working on so little. 00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:09.200 And I mean, the cuts of last year have been so deep and so difficult that it I think it kind of makes sense that it's different funding streams. 00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:28.960 I will say, though, what doesn't make sense, and it's tough to get past this, but what doesn't make sense is humanitarian agencies building or obviously contracting out to build every building getting its own individual solar system that then doesn't have necessarily the high-quality checks on construction or on operations and maintenance. 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:35.200 And I mean, I swear I feel like every week I see a new dead battery bank somewhere here in Kakuma. 00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:41.759 And whenever I get time, I try to revive these things, but it's a graveyard, it's a solar graveyard up here. 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:45.839 And that's how you end up with so many projects just falling back on diesel generators. 00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:57.039 And it's really sad because especially in a time when funding is so cut, to see so much of the budget going to diesel of all things, and nobody even wants this, it's just a tragedy. 00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:58.160 And I hate it. 00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:06.880 And unfortunately, We couldn't really play too much of a role with that until recently, just because, you know, for example, our first system was 60 kilowatts. 00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:10.160 The battery inverters had an output capacity of 54 kilowatts. 00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:15.839 And the Kenya Red Cross hospital down the road could easily overwhelm our system and shut off power for everybody. 00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:22.079 And so they would just have to fall back on their generators all the time back in the day because we weren't a reliable power provider for them. 00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:23.920 And that was just that, right? 00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:32.640 Now that we're 2.5 megawatts, and I'm saying yes to everybody, and maybe saying yes to too many, but it's it's bountiful. 00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:34.559 And everybody's a drop in the bucket. 00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:38.960 Even you bring a 72-kilowatt pump and I just say, sure, why not hook it up? 00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:43.200 And I think that is the future, and certainly our future. 00:22:43.359 --> 00:23:02.640 I think though anyone who's working in this world and can grow as big as possible as quickly as possible has an enormous service to play, not to be too cheesy about it, but kind of to the world as stakeholders in this, as all of us are taxpayers to governments that fund the UN system, and then those dollars going into diesel instead of into food for people. 00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:05.599 I think we can play a big role in solving those problems. 00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:07.200 So I'll get off my soapbox now. 00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:09.279 Sorry about that, but that's how I feel. 00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:11.759 Could I add one nuance there as well? 00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:20.480 Humanitarian agencies are really set up to deliver emergency services to people in that are really coming and settling for the first time. 00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:27.279 So that is a procurement system that's made for buying a lot of things in bulk in a very short amount of time. 00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:30.319 A very procure and distribute focused system. 00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:36.079 Whereas what we're talking about is changing the whole contracting model to a service-based model. 00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:43.680 And they do have examples in other sectors, like in the fleet sector, they buy vehicles on a service leasing contract. 00:23:44.000 --> 00:24:09.039 So we do have examples where the procurement rules of the UN allow this, but because the agency's incentives are set up to procure and deliver things, instead of buying things as a service, it makes that whole uh negotiation of a tariff, for instance, between a UN office and a mini-grid provider really outside of the box and

outside of the status quo of what the humanitarian agencies are used to doing. 00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:16.319 I would like to quickly go back to the subject of compounds versus the actual camps. 00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:25.440 Now, first of all, Amy, you said compounds may not always be next to the camps, but in some cases they are, right? 00:24:25.599 --> 00:24:28.880 And then there are you have these different funding streams. 00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:39.279 But what I found in my work for the UN on these compounds is that these compounds can have significant electricity demand, right? 00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:46.559 This can be easily several hundreds of kilowatts because people they don't just work there, they also live there. 00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:59.039 They need air conditioning, they need IT, they need everything that you have in a regular office plus house on a relatively high standard of living. 00:24:59.200 --> 00:25:05.279 So after all, all of that is produced most of the time by diesel generators. 00:25:05.359 --> 00:25:19.200 And the diesel generators are not operated by the UN organizations themselves, but they procure the assets plus operation and maintenance services from third-party providers. 00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:29.599 Now the question is: these third-party providers, could they not be incentivized, if they are anywhere nearby, to also supply electricity to the camps? 00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:38.880 Because they are there already and they could learn from our two examples here today, from Renewia and from humanitarian energy. 00:25:39.519 --> 00:25:42.400 So why is it not working yet, Amy? 00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:45.519 Can you shed some light on this? 00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:46.799 Yeah, definitely. 00:25:46.880 --> 00:25:48.319 And you're completely right. 00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:51.359 The details there around the contracting type. 00:25:51.599 --> 00:26:00.240 So everyone is very used to just buying a diesel generator because it's easy, it's reliable, usually there's a local mechanic who can maybe fix it. 00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:03.920 And whereas people maybe perceive solar as something more complicated. 00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:13.359 Again, going back to the status quo, people usually do APC models, buy, install equipment, and leave, and then people feel a bit burnt by solar not working. 00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:16.480 And so there's this perception of diesel being more reliable. 00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:25.759 I think the real transition will come in, and what we the sector really needs to move towards are signing electricity as a service agreements with companies. 00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:39.759 The bottleneck there has been from a company and an investor perspective, if you would sign a kind of PPA or leasing agreement as a company with the UN, you would probably want a five to ten year contracting timeline, right? 00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:42.720 To guarantee that your payments are going to come in. 00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:46.799 But on

the UN side, their budgets are usually one to two years. 00:26:46.960 --> 00:26:49.599 We ran a workshop series around this a few years ago. 00:26:49.759 --> 00:26:51.759 And that was the big catch-22. 00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:56.960 The UN said, yeah, we would love to do that, but sorry, we have our money in the bank for one to two years, so we can't. 00:26:57.200 --> 00:27:03.440 And really, this is where, for instance, financial guarantees could come into play to enable those sort of contracts. 00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:13.759 But I think there's been a misunderstanding or a lack of bridging between companies and their investors and with the UN realities of what money they have in the bank at the same time. 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:31.279 And if that sort of financial guarantee or maybe switching to kind of one-year renewable contracts in places where it's very likely that these compounds will stay for a long time, could then de-risk the investment on the private sector side and allow those compounds to actually be anchor clients. 00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:37.119 And then the mini-grid developer could then extend electricity to the local community on a business basis. 00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:43.599 So I think that's a key issue and disconnect between companies and investors in the UN that really needs to be solved. 00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:47.920 Is the UN maybe procuring from the wrong suppliers? 00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:50.720 Should they maybe talk to the mini-grid companies? 00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:51.279 Definitely. 00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:59.759 And say, hey, well, definitely if you deliver us electricity, you're free to also deliver electricity to the camp itself. 00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:00.559 Definitely. 00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:06.400 I think it then goes back to those one-year short-term budgets people are thinking about next week, not next year. 00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:08.160 And that's really the key thing. 00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:13.680 Yeah, but I but Douglas and Dissalegan said, well, this is not too much of an issue, right? 00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:17.759 We have more than enough demand from the camp itself. 00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:23.680 If we then start with a compound and make money from the first day, I think everyone would be happy. 00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:24.480 Don't you think so? 00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:24.960 Absolutely. 00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:34.960 The thing is, the humanitarian compounds as well as operation, their demand is high. 00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:42.400 In some cases, 60, 70% of the load of the camps goes to humanitarian agency. 00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:51.440 So that is too much risk to take for a private developer if the PPA power purchase agreement is not in place. 00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:58.240 So, I mean, with householders, businesses, I mean, as I said, we can take risks. 00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:14.640 But a developer to make that system, and at some point, if an HCR or WFP fails to continue their operation, and even if they reduce

their consumption by half, then that's a big, big, big uh risk for private developers. 00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:20.240 Plus to that, when you raise financing, I mean you do you need to have that PPA in place. 00:29:20.319 --> 00:29:24.160 Uh so that gives confidence for lenders to give you that money. 00:29:24.319 --> 00:29:25.519 And the demand is there. 00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:27.920 Yes, they can demonstrate that. 00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:37.039 Uh you, I mean, you you can build uh the load profile, whatever, whatever document is, but if an agreement is not in place, it makes financing very tough. 00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:40.559 So financiers will not be interested if PPA is not in place. 00:29:40.799 --> 00:29:45.839 The thing is, their their consumption is too big to take risk for a developer. 00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:48.559 I mean, that's the reality from our side. 00:29:48.960 --> 00:30:03.680 And Dessaline, I think you can speak to this more, but there's an added layer of complexity that if you're only serving a UN compound, you're basically an IPP with a contract with the UN, where then if you extend electricity to local community, then you're under national regulation. 00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:05.279 And maybe that's different. 00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:12.319 So there's some extra layers of complexity there, which I think again Dessaline can speak much more to from the Ethiopian context. 00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:20.559 If you are, I mean, serving, that's why we have, I mean, as humanitarian energy, we have two complementary business models. 00:30:20.720 --> 00:30:27.359 One is a mini-grid, this is our ordinary mini-grid model where you serve, I mean through utility model. 00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:34.480 But we have also tailored business model that target humanitarian agencies and their operation. 00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:36.160 That is an asset lease model. 00:30:36.319 --> 00:30:50.079 Most UN operations they don't have money to pre-finance, so we'll be the one uh pre-financing, operating so that they're not required to get into operation, whatever. 00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:52.160 So we take all the necessary risks. 00:30:52.319 --> 00:31:01.680 But as Amy was saying, I mean, you need to have like five, six, seven years of contracts, of the asset lease contract or agreements in place. 00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:07.759 But that's not usually coming with the maximum UN agencies can sign is two years. 00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:14.400 If with two years, if you pre-finance, then the cost is going to be too high even for them to cover. 00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:18.640 So, I mean, these are um vicious circles actually to resolve. 00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:27.920 But we have that model and we are very much happy to serve them because it makes your model really financially viable because of the big load. 00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:33.519 But the complexity around that is not something that private sectors would like to take risks with. 00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:51.359 Yeah, but this

Allegheny, when I asked you a few minutes ago about why you invested into a refugee camp electrification, even though you don't know if the refugee camp will exist some five to ten years from now, you said, oh, they will exist, right? 00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:52.720 I'm pretty sure about that. 00:31:52.880 --> 00:32:03.519 Couldn't you just also say that as long as the refugee camp exists, there will most likely also be some UN support, right? 00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:06.559 It would just be an extension of your initial argument. 00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:08.079 Very true. 00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:11.920 Yeah, yeah, that's very true. 00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:22.000 But the thing is, I mean, at the end of the day, humanitarian energy PLC is a private company, and we have to run as a commercial entity. 00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:32.000 So we have that big social mandate, that's true, and we will take adequate risks, but at the same time, I mean, it has to be very calculative risk. 00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:37.920 And we have to also look at the energy access and from the social impact side. 00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:47.039 So if you serve like 10,000 refugees, consumption more or less is the same as serving one small UN compound. 00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:53.359 So getting finances through the social impact is much higher. 00:32:53.599 --> 00:32:55.680 Probabilities much higher to get finance. 00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:59.440 I mean, you cannot raise funding to solarize a UN compound. 00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:00.559 I mean, it's tough. 00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:06.559 But for uh refugees, you can really uh find resources to subsidize the tariff. 00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:13.039 But it's difficult to get financing, especially grant or philanthropy, to solarize UN compounds. 00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:21.119 And it has to be clear for all of us that humanitarian energy has to operate as a commercial enterprise. 00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:29.119 And at some point, despite all the support that we are getting from MercyCore, we have to operate as an independent uh enterprise. 00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:37.519 So we have to look at all the return on investment because we we attract investors and we also have to pay debt back. 00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:44.400 So all these things has to be in place and financial viability and the risks has to be minimized as much as possible. 00:33:44.799 --> 00:33:46.000 Douglas, can you confirm that? 00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:53.119 Is it easier to acquire finance for refugee electrification than finance for office electrification? 00:33:53.680 --> 00:33:56.160 Literally, yes, based on our experience. 00:33:56.400 --> 00:33:58.559 I was gonna throw in two thoughts. 00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:05.200 One that people used to really push us on whether or not the refugee camps would still exist in X number of years. 00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:08.079 And I don't really have that conversation so much anymore, thankfully. 00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:21.280 It's kind of silly that that's more about our operational history and you know being in this community for seven years than it is about the community's operational history, you know, Kakuma having been founded in 1992 and Dadab in 1991. 00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:26.320 So I'm not saying it's right, but it that has seemed to track with what funders are the conversations they're having with me. 00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:32.159 Aaron Powell So what is the entry point now for a mini-grid company which wants to enter the space? 00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:42.719 Is it a tender usually for a certain camp, or can it be unsolicited proposals of companies which are interested in electrifying a camp? 00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:50.719 Aaron Powell A lot of new entry does go through tenders just because, you know, like for us, GIZ putting a tender out, they had presence here, they knew it well. 00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:54.239 That was a good way to convince a random private company to get in like us, right? 00:34:54.559 --> 00:35:02.079 But for example, our entry into Dadab, we've gone in fully just self-driven on that and raising our own funds for that and everything. 00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:08.800 And then I think this gets a lot more into the very nitty-gritty specifics of different countries' regulations and all that. 00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:26.239 But um it's very possible in I would say probably anywhere to if you can raise the funds, if you can make the case that you can do this in any refugee camp that's not who you know whose political sensitivity isn't so high that you know it's it's a no-go zone for funding or for approvals, right? 00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:29.519 Which off the top of my head, I can't really think of any place like that. 00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:34.800 So yeah, it's very much, I think, open doors all around, just a bit of a steep hill to climb. 00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:42.639 And at what point in time would mini-grid companies come in as an electrification option? 00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:49.360 It's probably not right after the emergency has happened and when all the refugees come to a certain place. 00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:51.519 It's probably years later, right? 00:35:51.599 --> 00:35:56.239 And that is, I guess, also your experience, Douglas and Deserlegan. 00:35:56.880 --> 00:36:06.719 You entered the space almost a decade or decades after the camp was established, and then you already found a ready market for your electricity. 00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:08.480 Is that the right approach? 00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:13.679 Should we let the refugees wait for a decade until they get access to electricity? 00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:20.239 I mean, personally, I do not think at all that's a sort of globally morally correct approach at all. 00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:32.159 But at the same time, I do understand, for example, we were approached with some interest in bringing our model to some refugee camps in Chad for folks fleeing the Sudanese Civil War. 00:36:32.320 --> 00:36:37.920 And unfortunately, you do

just have to look at that and kind of wonder like, is are those going to be there for that long? 00:36:38.320 --> 00:36:40.159 And I really hope they're not. 00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:44.320 You know, I am so rooting for peace in Sudan, right? 00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:50.079 And at the same time, I'm so rooting for the well-being of those who have fled the war in Sudan. 00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:51.519 So what do I do with that? 00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:54.239 I think the funders make the call on this one. 00:36:54.400 --> 00:36:55.599 I don't think anybody would fund that. 00:36:55.679 --> 00:36:58.000 I think that would have to be essentially 100% grant funded. 00:36:58.239 --> 00:37:00.079 If anyone disagrees, email me afterwards. 00:37:00.159 --> 00:37:03.039 I want to be wrong on this one, but I think I am right. 00:37:03.360 --> 00:37:09.599 I think for Renewia and humanitarian energy, again, unfortunately, I have to put all these caveats on here because I really do care so much. 00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:12.880 And these are really just so many tragedies built into these good economics, right? 00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:18.079 But I think a lot of these camps have been around for so long that we're spoiled for choice for now. 00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:22.800 You look at also other countries in the region, and we're still spoiled for choice. 00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:28.239 I mean, there's millions of people without electricity in these very large, dense settlements. 00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:30.800 And so I don't think we need to make that call yet. 00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:39.920 I think maybe in a few years after we've built gigawatts of metro grids in every country in the region, maybe then it'll make sense to be facing that dilemma. 00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:42.400 But for now, I think it's kind of clear. 00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:49.679 Yeah, in in our case, what we do is, I mean, Shader is a pilot and we have demonstrated, proven the concept. 00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:52.480 And then following that, we have an expansion plan. 00:37:52.639 --> 00:37:58.239 And that has a detailed engineering study for additional four camps. 00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:02.159 And one camp, our construction has already been started. 00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:07.199 The other three camps are already under fundraising. 00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:16.480 So we have an expansion plan and we do also quick mapping to see the demand, especially we look at their willingness and ability to pay. 00:38:16.559 --> 00:38:19.199 That's a key for us for any expansion. 00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:25.039 And then because the camps has been long and there are campus with 30, 35 years old. 00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:30.000 So I mean it's logical to solarize those campuses because the demand is so big. 00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:40.480 And it's logical to prioritize those camps with already settled and those uh with new camps because everything is established, the load profile is already clear. 00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:43.519 Targeting

those camps for me is very logical. 00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:46.159 Yeah, it also really depends on the situation. 00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:56.320 So, for instance, in Jordan, after the Syrian crisis, there were multiple refugee camps set up, and people in Syria were used to high electricity usage every day. 00:38:56.559 --> 00:39:01.599 So in the settlements there, they had really large-scale grid type systems. 00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:03.679 So we can really think about this in many ways. 00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:08.159 Those grid type systems are now an asset to the Jordanian grit, and that's great. 00:39:08.239 --> 00:39:14.000 I think it's to use these opportunities as a general electrification opportunity. 00:39:14.320 --> 00:39:16.559 And I think there's different ways to think about it as well. 00:39:16.719 --> 00:39:27.519 Could you look at different lower capital intensive business models, such as battery swapping, to test that out in marketplace first, and then see if you can expand? 00:39:27.760 --> 00:39:36.639 So it's probably not always to go in with the technology solution, but really to see, as Desaline said, what is the willingness and ability to pay? 00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:39.679 And then what kind of business model could be worked out around that? 00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:41.119 Could it be battery swapping? 00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:45.039 Could it be energy as a service for a kind of tier one type system? 00:39:45.280 --> 00:40:00.000 Could it be a combination of multiple, looking at the whole area, including and especially including doubles community demand, in conversation with the national government and the utility to really see where those opportunities are best fit? 00:40:00.320 --> 00:40:02.159 So I think lots of options out there. 00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:15.920 Yeah, Disselang and Douglas, do you see different technological requirements for electrification of refugee camps compared to regular villages, regular mini-grids? 00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:20.320 Is there anything different in the technological approach you take? 00:40:21.599 --> 00:40:29.119 I think that because of the density and the size, it's actually the best sort of case for very large-scale equipment. 00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:38.800 And giving, you know, I'm gonna forget my tiers here, but you know, tier, tier 10, tier 20, tier whatever the biggest number tier is electricity service. 00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:39.840 Five. 00:40:40.079 --> 00:40:43.920 You know, I kind of thought that, but we don't really mess around with one through four, so I don't know. 00:40:44.239 --> 00:40:48.960 Tier, yeah, tier, tier five service, because, anyways, that's just a good thing. 00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:53.199 But yeah, the density and the economic activity just really support it to begin with. 00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:56.239 I bet it's completely different in other places. 00:40:56.400 --> 00:41:06.719 And I think everyone probably in this call knows Uganda's refugee situation better than I

do, but my understanding is that it's a lot more spread out, which is partially a very good thing, better farming land and all that. 00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:23.119 I bet a lot of the sort of standard trade-offs apply there, where certainly it is way more sensible to provide a solar home system for somebody way up on the hillside than to do a 11 kV extension up the hill and then a step down for them, and then you've just spent$30,000 on one person's house, right? 00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:28.079 So I think your mileage may vary, you know, but common sense prevails. 00:41:28.719 --> 00:41:29.360 All right. 00:41:29.599 --> 00:41:36.320 Now we've looked into what is the best time to enter the scene, what technology to apply. 00:41:36.639 --> 00:41:45.599 Now the question is, what does it take on the regulatory administrative side to set up such a system and such an environment? 00:41:46.000 --> 00:41:53.119 Yeah, regulatory-wise, I mean, whatever applies for the national applies for the refugees. 00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:54.800 No unique intervention. 00:41:54.960 --> 00:42:00.480 But we're discussing about uh targeting UN or INEGOs in the refugee camp. 00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:02.639 That's where the difference comes. 00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:13.360 Because if you are serving communities, whether refugees or host communities, you will get this tax and duty exemption in the case of Ethiopia. 00:42:13.519 --> 00:42:26.559 But if you are building a system for one organization, then you will be required to pay for the tax and duty, which will, in some cases, double or triple the cost of building the system. 00:42:26.719 --> 00:42:36.239 So that's why we're trying to serve UNHCR or any just operating in the camp as one of our customers. 00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:43.760 The idea and the logic behind this tax and duty exemption is for energy access. 00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:56.159 So serving UNHCR or one compound is not considered as expanding energy access because you have to have some people benefiting and the number of people, all things will be seen. 00:42:56.320 --> 00:43:08.159 So to benefit from that, we're building a system, and then UNHCR or other partners can benefit from the system that we build for the refugees or host communities. 00:43:08.239 --> 00:43:20.000 But a separate standalone system is really much higher expensive because of the tax and duty uh associated with building a standalone system for those clients. 00:43:20.480 --> 00:43:22.880 What about land acquisition? 00:43:23.119 --> 00:43:24.880 What about licensing? 00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:27.440 What about building permits? 00:43:27.679 --> 00:43:32.239 Is that different from other mini-grid setups? 00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:35.039 Not different, especially land-wise. 00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:39.679 The good thing is we get it lease-free, so free lease. 00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:42.159 That's what is the experience we're having. 00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:44.000 So we're not paying for the land. 00:43:44.079

--> 00:43:45.920 That's an opportunity. 00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:50.639 But that is also applicable in other locations outside, I mean, all over the country. 00:43:50.800 --> 00:43:52.559 So land is not an issue. 00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:56.559 Permit is pretty the same standard and procedure you follow. 00:43:56.639 --> 00:43:59.760 So you're not getting any benefit by. 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:09.519 Operating in humanitarian space regulatory-wise, and you don't also miss any uh opportunity because of operating in that area. 00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:18.079 I mean, regulation-wise, licensing-wise, construction permits everything and importation, everything, and everything is pretty similar. 00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:27.679 And the land is still in the hands of the government, or is it under control of any refugee-related organization? 00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:34.880 I don't know what uh the other country's case, but in the case of Ethiopia, the land belongs to the local administration. 00:44:35.119 --> 00:44:40.480 So you get that land and you have to have that lease agreement with the local authority. 00:44:40.639 --> 00:44:48.400 Whether it is a refugee camp or even outside of the refugee camp, the land belongs to the local administration. 00:44:48.559 --> 00:44:50.480 And you have to have that agreement. 00:44:50.719 --> 00:44:53.840 That's where serving the host community comes. 00:44:54.000 --> 00:45:03.119 If your system is dedicated to serve only the refugee community, the host community or the local administration is the one giving you the land. 00:45:03.199 --> 00:45:05.119 So you have to give them back something. 00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:11.199 So that's when you have to incorporate host communities in your system design. 00:45:11.599 --> 00:45:13.519 All right, Douglas, is that the same in Kenya? 00:45:13.840 --> 00:45:14.719 Yeah, more or less. 00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:19.760 I mean, I think Nico, you probably wrote half the minigrid regulations around these parts, right? 00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:29.360 So, you know, a lot of countries have fleshed out the process for a normal remote community quite well, but they don't really deal with edge cases very often. 00:45:29.599 --> 00:45:38.400 And this is a huge edge case in terms of, you know, in certain camps, distances to national grids and things like that. 00:45:38.719 --> 00:45:45.840 But on the other hand, they're generally located in kind of less desirable areas and places that weren't already being used for something else, right? 00:45:46.000 --> 00:46:01.519 And so those two effects kind of combine to net out to make it the same, a short answer to your question, that it really is more or less the exact same process that we follow in any other village in Kenya that we follow for this much larger community. 00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:18.800 The only thing on top is just more out of courtesy than out of requirement, or kind of somewhere in between, just getting the consent of the Department of Refugee Services in Kenya, um, UNHGR, of course, these very important local partners who you do want them to know that you're around and what you're doing, and obviously all of that. 00:46:19.039 --> 00:46:24.639 But otherwise, from you know, the energy and petroleum regulatory authorities perspective, this is all just another mini-grid. 00:46:25.039 --> 00:46:29.920 The host community down the street from our plant, we serve with a different mini-grid. 00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:31.039 And I'm very thankful for that. 00:46:31.280 --> 00:46:34.159 They're too far to make it make sense to serve from the same plant. 00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:36.480 So it's all a long story, but a good story, right? 00:46:36.639 --> 00:46:52.719 But it is interesting that even though they're about 15 kilometers down the road and you know have some economic co-interest, but I mean 15 kilometers is a pretty fair distance, we need their approval and we need their local government's approval for things we're doing, you know, just as much as we do for the mini-grid in their own community. 00:46:52.800 --> 00:46:56.000 So yeah, it's a lot of stakeholders and a lot of approvals to get. 00:46:56.159 --> 00:46:59.440 But I still would say overall, it's not fundamentally different. 00:46:59.599 --> 00:47:02.639 And you can find dynamics like that in lots of villages, anyways. 00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:12.239 Maybe I would add in in the case of solarizing offices of UN compounds, often in other countries land is provided or leased to the UN. 00:47:12.320 --> 00:47:20.639 And so if you have a large office and it's a solarization of their load, then often you can use their rooftop space or some land nearby. 00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:24.639 And then it's just a direct discussion with the UN agency. 00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:36.639 And that's kind of where we at the GPA come in, is to bring companies to kind of sit down at the table with humanitarian agencies and try to understand each other better and develop ideas together. 00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:45.840 Often, again, because of public procurement rules, if the UN goes up to one specific company, then they would be disqualified from the tender that they might put up. 00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:58.960 So it's really creating brokerage space between the UN to understand the mini-grid companies or the renewable energy companies and the renewable energy companies to understand the UN and have those conversations to see what is needed where. 00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:00.000 All right. 00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:04.400 Let's go into a round of final statements. 00:48:04.719 --> 00:48:12.800 What would you recommend to a mini-grid company considering an engagement in a refugee settlement? 00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:13.920 Who wants to start? 00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:16.079 I can fly by the seat of my pants here. 00:48:16.239 --> 00:48:17.760 I would certainly say do it. 00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:19.519 People need electricity. 00:48:19.760 --> 00:48:32.320 And like I keep saying,

there are really some fundamentals that make it a much more attractive market to serve than many of the places that we in the industry already love serving and already are, you know, pouring ourselves out to serve. 00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:34.400 So I think definitely do it. 00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:44.559 Bring all your compassion and all your mental health and all your therapy and just everything because it is not easy. 00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:47.039 And what you see is not easy. 00:48:47.199 --> 00:48:55.039 The people you are around have often seen things that you would never believe and experience things, been victims of things, perpetrated things. 00:48:55.119 --> 00:48:57.119 I mean, you are in a different world in some ways. 00:48:57.280 --> 00:49:03.760 And you need to bring sort of your best self and be really truly dedicated to the service of people who need it and deserve it. 00:49:03.920 --> 00:49:05.199 So do it. 00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:06.559 Move fast. 00:49:06.719 --> 00:49:10.800 Don't sit on it, raise the money and build and join what we're trying to do here. 00:49:10.880 --> 00:49:11.760 That's what I would say. 00:49:12.159 --> 00:49:21.039 Yeah, from my side, the market is really too big to cover by one company in the case of Ethiopia. 00:49:21.199 --> 00:49:25.599 So we need to have more companies coming to the market. 00:49:25.679 --> 00:49:39.840 And the market is really big, and there are also opportunities working with humanitarian agencies, INDOs, organizations working on the livelihood support also support the productive use of energy. 00:49:39.920 --> 00:49:41.360 So the opportunities are big. 00:49:41.599 --> 00:49:47.119 Come and join us, is my call for private sectors and financiers. 00:49:47.440 --> 00:49:58.159 Maybe it's good also to give my last word on the financial, the risk and the operating environment is quite different from other operation areas. 00:49:58.480 --> 00:50:06.480 And I mean, we're taking risk, and I also encourage them also to take some calculated risk. 00:50:06.639 --> 00:50:13.760 So we're taking risk, let them also take a risk and do something that is measurable and impactable. 00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:21.360 Because what is encouraging for us is we've seen people's life changed in shader. 00:50:21.599 --> 00:50:23.519 So that's clearly visible. 00:50:23.599 --> 00:50:29.039 So that's the energy that we are having to build and expand our operation to other areas. 00:50:29.199 --> 00:50:40.639 So come and visit our areas, and then you will see the impact, and for sure, everyone's mind will be changed after seeing the impact that we have demonstrated in shader. 00:50:40.880 --> 00:50:46.239 Yeah, and according to what we discussed today, risk may even be lower than in regular mini-grids, right? 00:50:46.400 --> 00:50:50.639 As the economic development is that strong in refugee camps. 00:50:51.039 --> 00:50:52.320 Yes, exactly. 00:50:52.639 --> 00:50:55.360 Come and see the risks we're facing. 00:50:55.519 --> 00:51:00.079 So especially, I mean, you cannot treat this as a regular mini-grid project. 00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:06.480 The risks are much higher, but the opportunities are there, and then they have to be ready to take a risk. 00:51:06.559 --> 00:51:12.960 And whether it is a financer or even private developer, have to calculate and see those things. 00:51:13.199 --> 00:51:17.199 But impact-wise, you can demonstrate that impact very quickly. 00:51:17.679 --> 00:51:25.599 To add on there, I would say maybe size the market opportunity and maybe don't start with the hardest, hardest, hardest placed first. 00:51:25.920 --> 00:51:26.960 That's one tip. 00:51:27.440 --> 00:51:37.360 Another is to really develop genuine partnerships with the UN, with INGOs, really understand each other and see how each other work, and then you can find solutions together. 00:51:37.840 --> 00:51:43.760 Really invest in partnerships, really less in a transactional way, but more in a let's build something together way. 00:51:44.079 --> 00:51:46.000 And so that's another one. 00:51:46.400 --> 00:51:55.679 I think also start with a few different areas and try to blend finance in a few areas and see how to then build from there. 00:51:55.760 --> 00:52:01.440 So get that operational experience in these settlements, and then I think doors will open and others. 00:52:01.920 --> 00:52:07.519 And I guess there's also a call to financiers and people who build guarantees. 00:52:07.679 --> 00:52:14.079 There's very specific risks in these areas that can be de-risked if the right guarantees are put in place. 00:52:14.159 --> 00:52:27.280 And I think that is where we will see a sea change in the economies of scale that we can from many grid developers when and if we can work with financers to get the right guarantees in place for these types of locations. 00:52:27.599 --> 00:52:30.960 Because as we've talked about, they're kind of a no-brainer in terms of the density. 00:52:31.280 --> 00:52:37.760 But when the financiers are pricing in XYZ TEP risks, then it makes the cost of capital very high. 00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:47.280 Um, and so it's, I think, about finding those financial instruments that will allow many grid developers and private companies to come in and do the great work they know how to do. 00:52:47.599 --> 00:52:48.000 All right. 00:52:48.159 --> 00:52:51.920 Thanks a lot, Tessalin, Amy, Douglas. 00:52:52.400 --> 00:52:53.840 It was a pleasure. 00:52:54.159 --> 00:52:56.880 And uh thanks a lot once again. 00:52:57.199 --> 00:52:57.840 Thank you. 00:52:58.159 --> 00:52:58.559 Thank you. 00:52:58.800 --> 00:52:59.199 Thank you. 00:52:59.679 --> 00:53:04.320 This episode of the Mini Grid Business has been brought to you by Elements. 00:53:04.960 --> 00:53:09.920 Your monster for sustainable many grid for more information.