النص الكامل لحلقة The Dirty Truth with Deante Young (Do What's Right and Make Good Whiskey)

girlish figure, whatever I was in elementary school, I was called every name in the book. 04:25.120 --> 04:26.842 [SPEAKER_01]: There was even a time where my grandmother, 04:27.623 --> 04:34.206 [SPEAKER_01]: had me wearing my grandfather's pants because I couldn't find one in my size and they were limed green so that was humiliating. 04:34.306 --> 04:44.250 [SPEAKER_01]: So on on your path to entrepreneurship do you have a specific memory in which you can say yeah this was a challenge for me to overcome. 04:46.220 --> 05:05.917 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, I got, I think there were lots of, oh my, I think, you know, failures just sort of the name of the game and there are, you know, playing times that you stay up a night worrying about whether you can make payroll or if you can make these payments, it's, you know, it's, it's lots of things, I think that probably more recently. 05:06.877 --> 05:10.560 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, before starting this company, I went through a bankruptcy. 05:10.600 --> 05:17.364 [SPEAKER_03]: I was trying to start another one, I was caring for my mother who was really ill and ultimately passed away. 05:18.205 --> 05:22.468 [SPEAKER_03]: And then my wife got very sick and unfortunately, she's passed away as well. 05:23.228 --> 05:28.412 [SPEAKER_03]: But there were lots of medical bills and things that had to be paid and I had to go through a bankruptcy. 05:29.132 --> 05:34.557 [SPEAKER_03]: And that was tough, you know, I foolishly thought there was a stigma to it. 05:34.617 --> 05:47.068 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think there is any more, but it was a tough one, and then going out and raising the money for another business, knowing that I had this bankruptcy, and I always made people aware of that. 05:47.868 --> 05:54.854 [SPEAKER_03]: I thought it was going to be a big factor in my ability to raise funds, but it's funny that the people that invested in Cleveland, whiskey, the very early investors, 05:55.675 --> 06:13.524 [SPEAKER_03]: They said essentially that, look, you've been through it, you've gotten up, you're obviously excited and you've got a great business plan and the fact that you've went through this one thing that was a failure but you survived it, you're stronger because of it and I think that's true. 06:13.584 --> 06:15.585 [SPEAKER_03]: I think I learned a lot in that process. 06:15.785 --> 06:38.533 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they do say that life doesn't happen to you and it sounds like even the bankruptcy you did something that most people don't do which is most people look at problems and they try to find problems in every opportunity when I always say we should find opportunities in every problem and so the fact that you were able to overcome bankruptcy and overcoming these bills and things like that. 06:39.053 --> 06:52.699 [SPEAKER_01]: That's pretty significant, and I know that you actually, I think you got your doctorate at Boston University, so at some point you probably had a different future in mind if you were

looking for that. 06:52.719 --> 07:01.843 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's funny because that was a college dropout at one point, so going from that to ultimately getting a doctorate was sort of a big deal. 07:01.903 --> 07:05.465 [SPEAKER_03]: It took me a long time to do that, but, you know, I was, 07:06.545 --> 07:07.986 [SPEAKER_03]: a student radical at the time. 07:08.026 --> 07:21.675 [SPEAKER_03]: This was years ago sort of during the Vietnam era and got involved in student politics wound up dropping out probably because I knew I was going to flunk out any minute and really want that to occur. 07:22.576 --> 07:37.557 [SPEAKER_03]: I dropped out later, joined the Navy, spent six years in the Navy, and when I got out of the service, it taught me a lot of things, gave me a lot of discipline that I didn't have before that, and I went back to school and did really well and wound up in this doctoral program at BU, and yeah, it was good. 07:38.218 --> 07:44.301 [SPEAKER_01]: So, what was your vision for your life when you were at Boston University? 07:44.341 --> 07:47.662 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, how did you see your future playing out at that point in your 20s? 07:47.942 --> 07:55.085 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I remember, I was in my late 20s when I was there in my early 30s. 07:56.005 --> 07:59.006 [SPEAKER_03]: A little older than the other students, because I had spent my time in the service. 08:02.975 --> 08:08.101 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I don't know, I was in, I think at the time, I was also doing other businesses. 08:08.262 --> 08:17.793 [SPEAKER_03]: In fact, I remember my advisor once telling me, said Tom, you know, if you're really serious about getting the doctorate, you've got to drop that business and working on I was doing something. 08:18.654 --> 08:25.236 [SPEAKER_03]: Early days of computers, I was refurbishing and selling used computers and terminals to all the college students. 08:26.317 --> 08:27.617 [SPEAKER_03]: I was called Student Solutions. 08:27.657 --> 08:31.258 [SPEAKER_03]: It was about the same time that Michael Dell was starting, you know, Dell computers. 08:31.698 --> 08:33.479 [SPEAKER_03]: And we both were doing the same thing. 08:33.579 --> 08:36.220 [SPEAKER_03]: We were selling used equipment like... 08:38.120 --> 08:40.321 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, that just isn't around anymore. 08:40.361 --> 08:41.162 [SPEAKER_03]: That's all obsolete. 08:41.182 --> 08:45.424 [SPEAKER_03]: But we were selling that in modems and setting people up and doing that on college campuses. 08:45.504 --> 08:49.526 [SPEAKER_03]: And he took his business at a very different direction than I did. 08:49.606 --> 08:51.887 [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, it was the same sort of thing. 08:52.287 --> 08:54.968 [SPEAKER_03]: And I got chastised by my advisor. 08:55.589 --> 08:57.529 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I had to keep it more on the down low. 08:57.570 --> 08:58.210 [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't give it up. 08:59.190 --> 09:01.591 [SPEAKER_03]: and wound up creating some other things at the same time. 09:02.712 --> 09:09.394 [SPEAKER_03]: And even one at BU, I won an Entrepreneurship Award for a business plan ID I had back then. 09:09.774 --> 09:15.437 [SPEAKER_01]: So at that point, were you before or after Steve Wasney, I can Steve Jobs? 09:15.597 --> 09:20.719 [SPEAKER_01]: Because between those guys and then you had Bill Gates and Paul Allen, they were at the same time period. 09:20.779 --> 09:21.479 [SPEAKER_03]: They had really strong. 09:21.659 --> 09:42.065 [SPEAKER_03]: it a little bit before me, but I think I was more of the era, well, this was after college certainly, but Jeff Bezos, I remember being at a conference once, and Jeff was just sort of starting out, and we were both speakers on the same, wow, at the same conference. 09:43.660 --> 09:46.022 [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, and everything is relative. 09:46.062 --> 09:47.643 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, they've had some great successes. 09:47.723 --> 09:50.486 [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like I've had both successes and failures. 09:50.526 --> 09:56.131 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure they've had theirs as well, but other, you know, it's been, it's been pretty good for me. 09:56.151 --> 10:00.294 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's really interesting, because I know there was like 1976 when Apple was, was founded. 10:00.355 --> 10:00.555 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 10:01.035 --> 10:02.216 [SPEAKER_01]: That's, that's incredible. 10:02.436 --> 10:06.640 [SPEAKER_01]: So you've been amongst the, the hierarchy of tech giants. 10:07.161 --> 10:07.921 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, that general, 10:09.599 --> 10:16.244 [SPEAKER_03]: We're a lot of technology changes going on, a lot of things that were brand new and shifts and how we worked and how we did things. 10:16.304 --> 10:22.248 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, my doctoral dissertation was typed on a typewriter. 10:22.649 --> 10:25.391 [SPEAKER_03]: And to get a second copy, you had carbon paper in there. 10:25.411 --> 10:27.592 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, a lot of people don't even know what that is. 10:28.433 --> 10:35.998 [SPEAKER_03]: And yet only a year or two later, I was working on a, on a, on a, one of the early computers and doing work on that. 10:37.522 --> 10:42.864 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, and had a little side hustle doing statistical analysis for some of the professors at BU. 10:43.405 --> 10:46.086 [SPEAKER_03]: And, uh, yeah, it changed rapidly. 10:47.066 --> 10:50.368 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have any idea why you dropped out of college? 10:51.388 --> 10:57.751 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, was it just something that happened or can you remember what that motivation was or what the circumstances were? 10:57.771 --> 11:01.173 [SPEAKER_03]: I think in some ways it was lack of motivation for being there. 11:07.115 --> 11:12.558 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, was doing a lot there, was tear gas, student marches, you know, the whole thing, the whole time. 11:12.578 --> 11:20.141 [SPEAKER_03]: I was the first president of the first university sponsored motorcycle club in America.

11:20.321 --> 11:30.225 [SPEAKER_03]: Our dorm was really, we wound up all, we all own motorcycles, and I remember, I lived on the second floor, but there weren't any elevators, so I had to ride my bike up the stairwell. 11:30.885 --> 11:32.526 [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, you could, you could do that. 11:36.087 --> 11:43.851 [SPEAKER_03]: And again, I, you know, I wound up not going to classes, not doing the things I should, and ultimately thinking that, and let me take a step back. 11:44.271 --> 11:45.812 [SPEAKER_03]: High school, it all came easy. 11:46.352 --> 11:49.473 [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't have to pay attention, you know, I would think about other things. 11:49.493 --> 11:52.435 [SPEAKER_03]: I would sketch out ideas, you know, while the teachers were talking. 11:52.475 --> 11:58.657 [SPEAKER_03]: A classic sort of attention deficit disorder, I'm probably would be, you know, assigned that today, right? 11:58.878 --> 11:59.418 [SPEAKER_03]: And, um, 12:00.998 --> 12:03.319 [SPEAKER_03]: But it didn't translate when I went to college. 12:03.379 --> 12:05.960 [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, OK, now you do have to read the material. 12:06.000 --> 12:08.742 [SPEAKER_03]: You do have to go to the class as you have to pick it up that way. 12:09.342 --> 12:12.903 [SPEAKER_03]: And I really didn't have the discipline to do it at that time. 12:12.943 --> 12:13.864 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what I said. 12:14.904 --> 12:20.146 [SPEAKER_03]: My Navy time was really good for me because it did teach me the discipline to hunker down and focus on things. 12:20.226 --> 12:21.787 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that focus is important. 12:21.987 --> 12:27.733 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like that I might be your progeny then because in all honesty, I fail the 12-grade twice. 12:28.614 --> 12:36.123 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was humiliation, but the thing is that I never saw it as something that would be connected to anything I would care about doing. 12:36.683 --> 12:38.906 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, what is trigonometry going to do for me? 12:39.526 --> 12:41.048 [SPEAKER_01]: What is knowing about the Boston Tea Party? 12:41.068 --> 12:42.650 [SPEAKER_01]: What is that going to do for me, right? 12:43.230 --> 12:48.132 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I think that you, everything happens like the way it's supposed to happen, I believe. 12:48.732 --> 12:55.395 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's safe to say that that was a part of your journey that made you to where you are now. 12:55.715 --> 12:58.096 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, and I also didn't expect to go to college. 12:58.296 --> 13:08.840 [SPEAKER_03]: I actually had planned my parents thought I was going and I applied to schools, but I had planned the whole time to get to Alaska as soon as I graduated high school. 13:09.660 --> 13:18.524 [SPEAKER_03]: And at Homestead, in Alaska, I thought that was something to be interesting, you know, at the time you could get, you know, 320 acres, you just had to live on it and build a cabin. 13:18.864 --> 13:21.085 [SPEAKER_03]: And I said, you know, that sounds interesting to me. 13:21.145 --> 13:21.765 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to do that. 13:22.466 --> 13:23.186 [SPEAKER_03]: So I did. 13:24.166 --> 13:25.467 [SPEAKER_03]: I was still 17 years old. 13:25.567 --> 13:26.547 [SPEAKER_03]: I got out of high school. 13:26.768 --> 13:35.191 [SPEAKER_03]: I hitchhiked during the course of the summer and went down to Mexico up through California and all the way and got to Alaska. 13:35.211 --> 13:39.173 [SPEAKER_03]: And when I got there, I was told that the Homesteading Program had been discontinued. 13:39.613 --> 13:40.554 [SPEAKER_03]: While I was traveling. 13:40.694 --> 13:40.934 [SPEAKER_02]: Wow. 13:41.354 --> 13:44.617 [SPEAKER_03]: So I was like, okay, that was my plan. 13:44.717 --> 13:47.119 [SPEAKER_03]: That was what I thought was my life plan at that point. 13:48.139 --> 13:51.762 [SPEAKER_03]: I wound up working for us fires at summer, which turned out to be a great opportunity for me. 13:51.882 --> 13:54.404 [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, relative of the speaking made a lot of money. 13:54.424 --> 13:58.067 [SPEAKER_03]: And came back and said, okay, I guess I'm going to college. 13:58.107 --> 14:00.329 [SPEAKER_03]: I had already been accepted at a couple. 14:00.369 --> 14:01.750 [SPEAKER_03]: So I chose Penn State and 14:03.234 --> 14:05.636 [SPEAKER_03]: wound up there, but I didn't really play it on it. 14:05.717 --> 14:07.218 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think my heart was either. 14:07.438 --> 14:09.960 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that sounds a lot like how Steve Jobs wanted. 14:09.980 --> 14:11.822 [SPEAKER_01]: I think he was an India or something. 14:12.703 --> 14:14.705 [SPEAKER_01]: So it almost seems like a right of passage. 14:14.765 --> 14:20.510 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it something about that that that crystallizes your thoughts and what you eventually will become? 14:20.550 --> 14:21.971 [SPEAKER_01]: Is that what that capacity be or 14:23.152 --> 14:23.573 [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe. 14:23.593 --> 14:24.753 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I don't know. 14:24.994 --> 14:28.736 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, that's I haven't, you know, I don't think I'm that introspective. 14:28.936 --> 14:29.136 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 14:29.396 --> 14:29.557 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 14:29.737 --> 14:31.478 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's that's really fascinating though. 14:32.318 --> 14:36.021 [SPEAKER_01]: Did you ever get any pushback from your parents about wanting to be an entrepreneur? 14:37.735 --> 14:54.850 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, no, my mom was very encouraging, um, and she was big on education, so I had, you know, as a kid, you know, it's not like we had a ton of money, but she had me in skating lessons and art lessons and painting lessons and everything possible. 14:54.870 --> 14:56.632 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, we went to the library all the time. 14:57.572 --> 15:06.599 [SPEAKER_03]: The library was really sort of my hangout place and I loved reading science fiction and you know the early science fiction

You was very yeah, Jules. 15:06.679 --> 15:07.340 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, okay. 15:07.360 --> 15:16.527 [SPEAKER_03]: Let me tell you a story about Jules Vroom So Jules Vroom was you know early science fiction talked about submarines and in those submarines They had these big observation windows, right? 15:17.307 --> 15:20.350 [SPEAKER_03]: So when I joined the Navy I said I 15:21.755 --> 15:29.837 [SPEAKER_03]: I had to sign up for six year tour going to nuclear power program training and everything else because I wanted to be on a submarine because I wanted to look out those windows. 15:30.237 --> 15:31.557 [SPEAKER_03]: That's what I thought would be cool. 15:32.077 --> 15:46.641 [SPEAKER_03]: And then of course now everybody knows submarines don't have windows, but at the time there weren't the movies, you didn't know what a real submarine was unless you were on it and I really thought everything I had ever seen said submarines had big windows and then I 15:52.143 --> 15:57.269 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, and then eventually you got to where you were, I think you were consulting for media companies. 15:58.170 --> 15:58.491 [SPEAKER_03]: I did. 15:58.511 --> 16:01.194 [SPEAKER_03]: I worked at a company called Yankello Beach Partners. 16:01.795 --> 16:10.005 [SPEAKER_03]: It was part of a smaller analytical company that merged with a big advertising agency, Sachi and Sachi at the time. 16:10.745 --> 16:26.920 [SPEAKER_03]: And, yeah, I rose through the ranks there, and wound up as President and Chief Oper Neal Officer of the Company, we had offices around the world, and really worked for all sorts of companies, and mostly with new product forecasting, okay, we're going to launch this product. 16:26.960 --> 16:28.382 [SPEAKER_03]: Here's the attributes of it. 16:28.962 --> 16:33.964 [SPEAKER_03]: What are the estimates in terms of how much it's going to sell and win and what sort of advertising do we put against it? 16:34.024 --> 16:36.704 [SPEAKER_03]: What sort of sales do we put against it and say okay? 16:36.724 --> 16:41.266 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, if you do all that, it's going to sell X in year one and year two and year three. 16:42.966 --> 16:48.228 [SPEAKER_03]: So it was part of, you know, some of the statistical analysis that I'd learned in college and doing that. 16:49.569 --> 16:56.936 [SPEAKER_03]: And it was a pretty good job, but ultimately I left because I hadn't finished my doctorate and I did want to get that done. 16:56.956 --> 17:03.123 [SPEAKER_03]: It was a piece of paper that I wanted and also I was ready to do something on my own. 17:03.557 --> 17:03.797 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 17:04.477 --> 17:06.098 [SPEAKER_01]: What was your connection with MTV? 17:06.158 --> 17:08.920 [SPEAKER_03]: I think MTV had something to do with one of our clients. 17:09.320 --> 17:09.560 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 17:10.000 --> 17:13.862 [SPEAKER_01]: That's one of my favorite, especially some of the shows that were on back in the 90s. 17:13.982 --> 17:14.202 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 17:14.282 --> 17:15.983 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like it was, you know, back then. 17:16.083 --> 17:20.966 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, we did, you know, we did everything from Amtrak to American Airlines. 17:21.066 --> 17:24.508 [SPEAKER_03]: We did all sorts of consumer products, products we did. 17:25.728 --> 17:41.978 [SPEAKER_03]: Clorox, Kingsford, yeah, there were, there were a lot of things, but even that was frustrating because sometimes we go through all this analysis and say, okay, if you build it this way, here's what's going to happen, and then they would build it differently. 17:42.898 --> 17:57.279 [SPEAKER_03]: and it failed and you'd think like you know if you had listened it might have been a great success so it was a little frustrating because ultimately there were other people who had control so what I love about entrepreneurship is you're making the decisions right or wrong 17:57.900 --> 18:04.963 [SPEAKER_03]: is that you get to say, yeah, I think this is right, or I think this is wrong, or it should be painted blue as opposed to green. 18:05.363 --> 18:07.284 [SPEAKER_03]: Those are the decisions you constantly make. 18:07.384 --> 18:09.164 [SPEAKER_03]: Now, there's a lot of menusian that. 18:09.344 --> 18:10.225 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 18:10.385 --> 18:13.506 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, everything from, okay, we've got too many weeds outside. 18:13.546 --> 18:15.207 [SPEAKER_03]: We need to get out there and deal it. 18:15.227 --> 18:16.967 [SPEAKER_03]: We've got a leaky roof and another building. 18:16.987 --> 18:18.248 [SPEAKER_03]: All of those things. 18:18.308 --> 18:18.548 [SPEAKER_03]: So. 18:19.788 --> 18:23.590 [SPEAKER_01]: What's been your most challenging position as much 18:31.800 --> 18:34.822 [SPEAKER_03]: So I was starting a company called Bulldozer Camp. 18:36.023 --> 18:40.325 [SPEAKER_03]: Sort of the quintessential blue color experience for white color professionals. 18:41.486 --> 18:48.110 [SPEAKER_03]: I wound up buying a piece of land in Washington State, or at a long snake river, and the whole idea was to have a getaway. 18:49.070 --> 18:55.132 [SPEAKER_03]: four people who had a lot of money didn't have a lot of time and wanted a really amazing experience. 18:55.992 --> 19:01.634 [SPEAKER_03]: And the idea was that they would get to drive and use the large construction equipment. 19:01.674 --> 19:09.897 [SPEAKER_03]: The really big stuff, not even the things you see on the city streets, but the really big bulldozers and front end loaders and everything else. 19:10.298 --> 19:15.079 [SPEAKER_03]: And we were going to have people trained to sort of teach them, but also entertainment them in that. 19:15.119 --> 19:16.700 [SPEAKER_03]: We had a idea about a 19:18.782 --> 19:30.276 [SPEAKER_03]: a wishbone pull, you know, where you take, you'd eliminate six sheets of three-quarter inch plywood and make a giant wishbone and you'd have two front-end loaders pulling at it in each end and you break it

off and see who wins. 19:30.456 --> 19:31.598 [SPEAKER_03]: Everybody got trophies. 19:33.800 --> 19:36.143 [SPEAKER_03]: We crushed cars with bulldozers the whole thing. 19:36.483 --> 19:44.251 [SPEAKER_03]: I was raising the money for that It was a constant, you know, seven day a week almost 24 hours a day Raising that money. 19:44.331 --> 19:52.219 [SPEAKER_03]: I raised a good bit of it and then there were some outside things relative to the economy and fuel consumption where all of a sudden 19:53.720 --> 20:10.538 [SPEAKER_03]: conspicuous use of fuel was a problem, and I remember what year this was, but as like the existing investors started getting cold feet a little bit and I still needed more, and that was also one of the factors that 20:11.279 --> 20:16.101 [SPEAKER_03]: wound me up in bankruptcy, because I had overextended in terms of land and options on land. 20:16.201 --> 20:20.722 [SPEAKER_03]: I had about a square mile on the Snake River in Washington State. 20:21.002 --> 20:25.464 [SPEAKER_03]: Beautiful land, it would have been great, but it just didn't work. 20:25.644 --> 20:34.367 [SPEAKER_03]: And so that was frustrating because not that I haven't had other failures, but that one I just thought this is going to be a great idea and it would have been so much fun. 20:34.887 --> 20:34.987 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 20:36.027 --> 20:40.388 [SPEAKER_01]: That's empowering because, you know, I don't know if you ever heard a Seth Golden, he's a great person. 20:40.548 --> 20:42.948 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I get his emails every day. 20:42.968 --> 20:43.048 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 20:43.489 --> 20:48.870 [SPEAKER_01]: Seth Golden, he has this great line, he says, people always say, what would you do if you knew you couldn't fail? 20:48.890 --> 20:49.330 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm. 20:49.370 --> 20:53.871 [SPEAKER_01]: But he says that he likes to ask, what would you still do even if you knew you would fail? 20:53.891 --> 20:54.071 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm. 20:54.571 --> 21:00.352 [SPEAKER_01]: And to me, that is like the ultimate question because it means that you're doing it because it's a passion thing. 21:00.412 --> 21:05.193 [SPEAKER_01]: It's in you and you're not looking at it like, oh, well, I'm only going to do this because I'm going to be successful. 21:05.933 --> 21:07.394 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's like a great way. 21:07.414 --> 21:09.475 [SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like that you have that mentality as well. 21:10.275 --> 21:15.718 [SPEAKER_03]: And although I wouldn't just, if I knew I was going to fail, I probably wouldn't do it. 21:15.798 --> 21:17.638 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm like tremendous amount of respect for Seth. 21:18.199 --> 21:20.700 [SPEAKER_03]: And he's sort of one of the gurus out there. 21:20.720 --> 21:21.580 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, definitely. 21:21.980 --> 21:27.223 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, you know, it's safe to say that when you are in entrepreneurship, you really need a solid support system. 21:27.983 --> 21:40.026 [SPEAKER_01]: And to me, that's indispensable because, you know, there's these long nights, there's the uncertainty, but then there's this great upside and it's good to have someone help to regulate your mindset and things like that. 21:40.606 --> 21:43.187 [SPEAKER_01]: As far as it goes, I know you told me that you've been married twice. 21:43.807 --> 21:44.787 [SPEAKER_01]: I've been married more than that. 21:44.847 --> 21:45.407 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, more than that. 21:46.067 --> 21:46.988 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, well, twice. 21:47.628 --> 21:48.308 [SPEAKER_01]: More recent years. 21:48.488 --> 21:49.148 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 21:50.268 --> 21:53.729 [SPEAKER_03]: Would you say... My son says I should have been a Hollywood actor. 21:57.723 --> 22:05.148 [SPEAKER_01]: That actually would be a calling card because it's just like with Elizabeth Taylor and some of these people, but wow, that's interesting. 22:05.208 --> 22:17.096 [SPEAKER_01]: But over the course of these years when you were being an entrepreneur, how much did that play into it with, you know, the people you were married to and also other people that was your inner circle. 22:18.680 --> 22:36.458 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, if anything, it probably contributed to some of my divorces, but I think that generally, my support system comes internally as something you have to draw up, but you have to really it's up to you to make it happen, it's up to you to get through the hard times. 22:38.580 --> 22:41.882 [SPEAKER_03]: At Cleveland Whiskey, I have my son who works for me, which is incredible. 22:41.982 --> 22:42.402 [SPEAKER_03]: I love it. 22:43.062 --> 22:47.344 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not a family business, but I was able to recruit him into the business once we were getting started. 22:47.964 --> 22:49.425 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I work with him every day. 22:49.445 --> 22:51.746 [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's one of the great things in my life right now. 22:52.086 --> 22:52.767 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 22:53.587 --> 22:55.888 [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, I agree. 22:56.348 --> 23:01.090 [SPEAKER_03]: You need help from other people, and all of that is great and necessary. 23:01.150 --> 23:04.092 [SPEAKER_03]: But at the same time, it's ultimately up to you. 23:04.252 --> 23:06.233 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think you have to have the mental fortitude. 23:07.113 --> 23:14.877 [SPEAKER_03]: to pull yourself up because you will be knocked down and you just have to say, okay, I'm gonna get up again and I'm gonna do it. 23:15.517 --> 23:31.825 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's like you see some of these races sometimes where somebody falls and they're struggling and you're just, your heart goes out to them because you know they're, everything is aching and they can't really make it but they make themselves even if they have to crawl to the finish line. 23:32.565 --> 23:37.414 [SPEAKER_03]: That's all in them, and I just find that amazing when people do that. 23:37.807 --> 23:42.991 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you do have to internalize exactly what you're

doing and not make it be someone else's issue. 23:43.531 --> 24:04.447 [SPEAKER_01]: I just think that we can't be around negative energy, because negative energy has a way of kind of being like a virus, less brown talks about a mind virus and that's something that a lot of people just don't seem to have the self-awareness to understand that they are the people that are carriers of that mind virus. 24:05.107 --> 24:10.515 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, with regard to Cleveland whiskey, what year did you that you found that company? 24:12.077 --> 24:13.218 [SPEAKER_03]: So I guess it was founded in 2009. 24:14.760 --> 24:17.785 [SPEAKER_03]: I was still teaching at the time. 24:17.805 --> 24:19.928 [SPEAKER_03]: I was a college professor for a short period of time. 24:20.589 --> 24:36.390 [SPEAKER_03]: And so doing it sort of in my spare time, part time, whatever, it was only in 2011, 2012 that actually started looking at it full time and putting some, you know, putting a lot of money into it from my mom put a view. 24:38.125 --> 24:43.709 [SPEAKER_03]: We shipped our first models in March of 2013, so I like to think that that was our birthday, March of 2013. 24:44.330 --> 24:47.212 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, so you, yes, a great segue. 24:47.232 --> 24:48.773 [SPEAKER_01]: You talk about being a college professor. 24:48.813 --> 24:53.596 [SPEAKER_01]: That's how I came to be aware of you because my cousin was in one of your classes. 24:53.636 --> 24:58.140 [SPEAKER_01]: He said that you were the entrepreneurship department or something like that. 24:58.720 --> 25:11.907 [SPEAKER_01]: and it was at Lake, Lake, a recalage, and he just kept telling me these awesome stories about you, saying just how great your teaching style is and because he knew that I was always very entrepreneurial, that's why it was important for him to tell me that. 25:12.687 --> 25:21.912 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that that's such an incredible endeavor, but I'm really curious why whiskey, why would you get into the whiskey business? 25:23.110 --> 25:34.925 [SPEAKER_03]: So I read this article about the growing middle class in China, and in the article they talked about the author talked about people buying affordable luxury 25:36.664 --> 25:59.447 [SPEAKER_03]: treat with that and being sort of a little piece of me is that academic researcher, I want to like know what's behind it, so I did a lot more research, and I found that it wasn't just affordable luxuries, it was conspicuous affordable luxuries, things they could share with their friends, show off a little bit, it wasn't going to be a new car, it had to be something affordable, they were newly entering the middle class. 26:00.308 --> 26:13.263 [SPEAKER_03]: And then I looked at the data and some of the things that stood out as the population was growing, not just in China, but in Africa and South America and all around the place where people were entering the middle class for the first time. 26:14.264 --> 26:16.427 [SPEAKER_03]: They were buying imported scotch and imported bourbon. 26:17.448 --> 26:17.748 [SPEAKER_03]: So... 26:19.330 --> 26:20.572 [SPEAKER_03]: And I said, that sort of makes sense. 26:20.592 --> 26:21.252 [SPEAKER_03]: You've got a bottle. 26:21.292 --> 26:22.233 [SPEAKER_03]: You can show off the label. 26:22.253 --> 26:23.275 [SPEAKER_03]: You can share it with friends. 26:23.535 --> 26:25.477 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a conspicuous, affordable luxury. 26:26.298 --> 26:38.231 [SPEAKER_03]: And then I had one of my experiences in the Navy was on this oldest swir, and I was involved with this chief, who was making what he called a hooch on the ship. 26:39.052 --> 26:46.875 [SPEAKER_03]: And so which is a whole other story, but so I learned a little bit about it and a little bit I knew about whiskey. 26:46.955 --> 26:48.235 [SPEAKER_03]: So I was intrigued with this. 26:48.295 --> 26:49.855 [SPEAKER_03]: I said, well, maybe there's an opportunity there. 26:51.176 --> 26:54.457 [SPEAKER_03]: But then I thought, but I wouldn't want to do it the same way as everybody else. 26:54.537 --> 26:56.558 [SPEAKER_03]: I want to have some competitive advantage. 26:56.638 --> 26:57.678 [SPEAKER_03]: What is it that I can do? 26:57.758 --> 26:57.898 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, 26:58.558 --> 27:01.040 [SPEAKER_03]: Whiskey, typically you have to be patient. 27:01.120 --> 27:12.729 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not a patient person and you know you make it You make it in the steel pretty basic straight forward I learned to make fresh water out of salt water the Navy so I understood distilling and 27:14.070 --> 27:22.462 [SPEAKER_03]: I said, we can do that, but then you put it in a barrel and you sit there and you wait for six, eight, ten, twelve years for it to become marketable, and I said, that doesn't make sense. 27:23.343 --> 27:26.187 [SPEAKER_03]: So I started experimenting, experimenting in my basement. 27:26.527 --> 27:29.492 [SPEAKER_03]: I probably blew up a thousand Mason jars. 27:30.413 --> 27:49.089 [SPEAKER_03]: My wife was convinced that the neighbors were going to call the police and say these guys have a meth lab in their basement because you can do these little muffled explosions and every weekend I'd go down and fill up a pickup truck full of ice from the local gas stations and then I'd throw it down the old coal shoot that's in the house So I'm sure people were suspicious 27:51.430 --> 27:56.531 [SPEAKER_03]: But I say if I had a better attention span, I'd be a chemist because I really love that. 27:58.031 --> 28:03.973 [SPEAKER_03]: But because I'm not a real chemist, the experiments I were doing, I mean mistakes that a real chemist wouldn't have done. 28:04.033 --> 28:16.415 [SPEAKER_03]: But in those mistakes, I found the secrets or the background to the secrets relative to making whiskeys better, making them faster and using woods other than oak. 28:17.155 --> 28:24.762 [SPEAKER_03]: So we all use oak barrels because not just because they have a great flavor when you

leave it in there and get that flavor from the oak, but they also hold liquid. 28:25.282 --> 28:29.806 [SPEAKER_03]: If I built a barrel out of hickory or sugar maple or something like that, they would leak like a sieve. 28:30.547 --> 28:32.969 [SPEAKER_03]: But I can use those because of our technology. 28:34.250 --> 28:38.394 [SPEAKER_03]: I can use those woods and get some really extraordinary and unique flavors out of that. 28:38.414 --> 28:41.456 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's sort of what drove me to do it. 28:41.496 --> 28:43.278 [SPEAKER_03]: It was there's a market opportunity. 28:43.318 --> 28:44.119 [SPEAKER_03]: So that was first. 28:44.759 --> 28:49.803 [SPEAKER_03]: And then what advantages could I bring to that market opportunity and you put those together? 28:49.843 --> 28:53.386 [SPEAKER_03]: And then you've got the essence of what will hopefully be a successful business. 28:53.586 --> 28:55.307 [SPEAKER_01]: Can I hear a unique selling proposition? 28:55.488 --> 28:55.648 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 28:55.968 --> 29:04.915 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's interesting because what you hear from a lot of upper-crossed people, the hoidi-toidi people, they always talk about single-mortz scotch. 29:05.055 --> 29:05.215 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 29:05.455 --> 29:05.676 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 29:06.076 --> 29:06.997 [SPEAKER_01]: How would you compare? 29:08.298 --> 29:14.822 [SPEAKER_01]: the quality and even the smoothness of whiskey is specifically yours to single-mult scotch. 29:15.202 --> 29:26.190 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, we make a couple of different things and I think there's some great scotch and Irish whiskey out there that I'll drink as well, but ultimately we make things that are different. 29:26.310 --> 29:32.874 [SPEAKER_03]: So I think part of the challenge in whiskey is that because it's all aged and oak barrels, 29:33.835 --> 29:35.956 [SPEAKER_03]: It will taste the same to a large degree. 29:36.156 --> 29:41.479 [SPEAKER_03]: Now, as you mentioned, the hoodies, that's a great one. 29:41.499 --> 29:42.440 [SPEAKER_03]: I haven't heard that in a while. 29:42.860 --> 29:46.102 [SPEAKER_03]: But it's true the sort of the snobs of the whiskey world. 29:46.162 --> 29:50.384 [SPEAKER_03]: They will say, well, it has to be made a certain way. 29:50.564 --> 29:53.125 [SPEAKER_03]: It's only certain things, and you've got to do it this way. 29:53.766 --> 30:00.069 [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't think just because it's been done that way for a long period of time that you need to continue doing that. 30:00.149 --> 30:01.390 [SPEAKER_03]: We take a totally different approach. 30:02.030 --> 30:14.544 [SPEAKER_03]: And as I mentioned a little bit earlier, we finish some of our whiskeys in these other woods that can produce extraordinary flavors if you put them side by side with another whisky, they're different. 30:15.065 --> 30:16.846 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not a head-to-head comparison. 30:17.447 --> 30:19.928 [SPEAKER_03]: But we do make some traditional whiskeys as well. 30:19.968 --> 30:28.913 [SPEAKER_03]: We've got a Cleveland Black Reserve that's a 100-proof oak aged, but using our process whisky. 30:29.253 --> 30:32.475 [SPEAKER_03]: And we've done over 3,600 blind taste tests against Knob Creek. 30:32.735 --> 30:35.336 [SPEAKER_03]: Knob Creek is a great, you know, give it all. 30:35.416 --> 30:36.737 [SPEAKER_03]: It's credit, all the credit is due. 30:36.757 --> 30:39.138 [SPEAKER_03]: They've won gold medals at virtually every competition. 30:39.418 --> 30:40.539 [SPEAKER_01]: It knocks me out though. 30:40.719 --> 30:42.221 [SPEAKER_03]: It's good, but it's also 100 proof. 30:42.281 --> 30:47.446 [SPEAKER_03]: So if we do a comparison with our Cleveland Black Reserve and not Creek, it's a fair comparison at the same proof. 30:49.448 --> 30:53.812 [SPEAKER_03]: In 3600 blind tastes tests, we've won 54% of the time, is the preferred whiskey. 30:55.393 --> 30:57.535 [SPEAKER_03]: But not Creek takes nine years to make in a barrel. 30:57.815 --> 30:58.156 [SPEAKER_04]: Cheese. 30:58.676 --> 30:59.477 [SPEAKER_03]: Ors takes... 31:00.758 --> 31:13.900 [SPEAKER_03]: including the time that it spends in a barrel because it has to go in a barrel for a short period of time to be called a bourbon whiskey You know, it's it's a year old at most Yeah, well, yeah, that's impressive. 31:14.461 --> 31:26.963 [SPEAKER_01]: What would have you found and in customers who know about whiskey or who Just have a curiosity what have you found that they get wrong about there are assumptions about whiskey 31:27.583 --> 31:36.090 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think, you know, I say age is irrelevant, but a lot of the marketing that has gone on and past practices and the older it is, the better it is. 31:36.831 --> 31:39.793 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's not true anymore or doesn't have to be true. 31:41.855 --> 31:44.937 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, if we can get the, it's sort of like, you know, think back to, you know, 31:46.319 --> 32:02.677 [SPEAKER_03]: the transition from horses to automobiles right you know that was that was a major change Yeah, and you know if you go back and look at sort of some of the old newspaper accounts go to the microfistion And read some of that it was like people were talking about how it was Heresy 32:03.358 --> 32:09.123 [SPEAKER_03]: to bring, you know, they wanted to keep those automobile internal combustion engine off of their streets. 32:09.163 --> 32:14.008 [SPEAKER_03]: There were all sorts of moves to do that because it was different. 32:14.768 --> 32:16.169 [SPEAKER_03]: And they said, well, it's loud. 32:16.230 --> 32:19.593 [SPEAKER_03]: They said it was dirty, no, which I find funny because the horses were 32:20.193 --> 32:26.218 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure there was a lot of dirt on the streets because of those horses, but it took a long while. 32:26.278 --> 32:32.784 [SPEAKER_03]: And in fact, even today, how do we measure the power of an engine horsepower? 32:33.084 --> 32:35.286

[SPEAKER_03]: Because that was a way for people to understand. 32:35.366 --> 32:41.272 [SPEAKER_03]: And it was very relevant when you would have a three horsepower engine, people understood what that was. 32:42.692 --> 32:49.654 [SPEAKER_03]: But, but there were a lot of naysayers and it took a long time to do that, you know, airplanes, microwave ovens, all sorts of things. 32:49.714 --> 32:59.057 [SPEAKER_03]: And in our case, our whiskeys, if you're in a established whisky drinker, you're less likely to think it's going to be good. 32:59.597 --> 33:00.997 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's your preconceived notion. 33:01.417 --> 33:03.158 [SPEAKER_03]: Younger drinkers are intrigued by it. 33:03.378 --> 33:10.120 [SPEAKER_03]: I find that in Asia specifically, people, or they really want to know about it because they're intrigued 33:12.620 --> 33:19.422 [SPEAKER_03]: So it just depends on the audience, but there are certainly people out there who say it will never be as good. 33:19.542 --> 33:21.522 [SPEAKER_03]: Can I take a quick little story about that? 33:21.542 --> 33:21.862 [SPEAKER_03]: Of course. 33:22.102 --> 33:24.783 [SPEAKER_03]: So we had early on we had a reviewer. 33:25.663 --> 33:33.005 [SPEAKER_03]: Traditional reviewer works for the whisky magazines that a very select set of the population reads. 33:33.705 --> 33:37.687 [SPEAKER_03]: And he said he was going to do a review of our Cleveland Black Reserve. 33:38.208 --> 33:44.151 [SPEAKER_03]: This is the one I was just talking about that is, it does really well in competitions with not Greek. 33:44.271 --> 33:45.031 [SPEAKER_01]: Is that your bestseller? 33:47.873 --> 33:48.834 [SPEAKER_03]: Not today. 33:48.954 --> 33:52.256 [SPEAKER_03]: It's pretty good because we've got wide distribution from it. 33:52.296 --> 33:55.978 [SPEAKER_03]: But some of the ones now we use other woods to finish are better. 33:56.118 --> 33:57.318 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think they're actually a better 34:00.397 --> 34:05.758 [SPEAKER_03]: I hate to use the word better, but I think if you're going to get something, why not get something that's a little bit different. 34:07.259 --> 34:08.999 [SPEAKER_03]: But this reviewer said I'm going to give it a review. 34:09.059 --> 34:22.142 [SPEAKER_03]: His first paragraph talked about how it was sacrilege and to use science and technology in an industry that had been perfected over generation after generation and said that 34:22.802 --> 34:27.124 [SPEAKER_03]: And really, it was almost a religious rant on his part, at least how I read it. 34:27.164 --> 34:38.049 [SPEAKER_03]: They talked about the sacrilege and the heresy and the moral issues associated with using this technology, trying to make something better, or heaven forbid, make it faster. 34:38.869 --> 34:53.233 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, uh, second paragraph said, um, but that's okay because there's no way, no possible way that you can improve on how whiskey is made today and the whiskeys that are made today that you can't improve that. 34:53.253 --> 34:55.374 [SPEAKER_03]: That's, it's, it's, there's an established process. 34:55.414 --> 34:56.374 [SPEAKER_03]: Here's which you go through. 34:56.694 --> 34:58.195 [SPEAKER_03]: You'll leave it for a long period of time. 34:58.275 --> 35:00.275 [SPEAKER_03]: If you leave it in a barrel longer, it's going to get better. 35:00.315 --> 35:01.536 [SPEAKER_03]: It was all associated with that. 35:02.256 --> 35:09.381 [SPEAKER_03]: So the third paragraph then says, but I'm going to give it a fair and impartial review, which I didn't believe, because he had just ranted and raved about it. 35:10.122 --> 35:22.111 [SPEAKER_03]: And he went on to say, essentially, that when he, when he supposedly tasted our whiskey, and I really don't think he did, but he said that he thought it tasted like, and excuse my language, sheep piss. 35:23.011 --> 35:23.391 [SPEAKER_03]: She pissed. 35:24.052 --> 35:25.813 [SPEAKER_03]: I posted down on Facebook immediately. 35:25.833 --> 35:30.957 [SPEAKER_03]: And the first, the very first response was, well, how the hell would he know what sheep piss tastes like? 35:31.957 --> 35:43.224 [SPEAKER_03]: And we, of tremendous amount, in fact, it was one of the great moments for us in terms of marketing because people just reacted to the absurdity of that statement. 35:44.364 --> 35:53.729 [SPEAKER_03]: And we had a lot of things like that by the established reviewers, by the so-called, and sometimes self-proclaimed experts in the industry. 35:54.090 --> 35:58.892 [SPEAKER_03]: And I have still have some who, like, poo-poss and say, well, you're not real whiskey. 35:58.952 --> 36:00.353 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's just ridiculous. 36:00.746 --> 36:11.476 [SPEAKER_01]: I know whenever I bring up Jamison and things like that, people, you know, some people are obsessed with it, and then you got other people that just say, oh man, that's like the worst possible thing ever. 36:12.277 --> 36:15.279 [SPEAKER_03]: And... Well, here's the other thing about things we taste. 36:15.780 --> 36:20.985 [SPEAKER_03]: We all have different tastes, so I'm not expecting everybody to love or like our products. 36:21.325 --> 36:23.427 [SPEAKER_03]: I think of a spherigous. 36:24.256 --> 36:24.476 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 36:24.796 --> 36:41.205 [SPEAKER_03]: I can't stand asparagus, but when I say that to people, they say, oh, well, you'd probably never try to light asparagus, or you should try my recipe or something, you know, it's, it's, but no, I just don't, I don't understand why people even think about eating asparagus, but other people like it. 36:41.245 --> 36:42.566 [SPEAKER_03]: So we have different tastes. 36:42.786 --> 36:42.986 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 36:43.206 --> 36:48.489 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think there's room for all different types of whiskeys, all different types of products. 36:49.782 --> 36:58.608 [SPEAKER_01]: I really agree with that, because to each his own living, let live, I believe, and everyone has

the so-called unique pallet, and that's what I think. 36:59.849 --> 37:08.135 [SPEAKER_03]: If you're picking up the people who are listening into this, if you're picking up the sound of planes overhead, we're getting ready for an air show here in Cleveland. 37:08.255 --> 37:15.219 [SPEAKER_03]: So that's the Blue Angels or the Thunderbirds, but they're up there, and they run over our building as they practice, which is pretty cool, actually. 37:15.239 --> 37:15.860 [SPEAKER_01]: That is pretty cool. 37:16.220 --> 37:17.180 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, Labor Day weekend. 37:17.260 --> 37:17.840 [SPEAKER_01]: You got it with it. 37:19.121 --> 37:29.543 [SPEAKER_01]: When you're crafting whiskey, are you trying to make it, I don't know how to say, taste good, or is it just not supposed to... Oh, no, that's the driver. 37:29.943 --> 37:30.763 [SPEAKER_03]: Is that you really? 37:30.803 --> 37:34.644 [SPEAKER_03]: And there's plenty of things that we don't bring on the market, because we're always experimenting. 37:35.605 --> 37:44.827 [SPEAKER_03]: And we'll experiment and experiment and with something if we change the process a little bit and it turns out better than that becomes part of our procedure. 37:46.547 --> 37:51.989 [SPEAKER_03]: If it didn't make it better, or it, you know, or it made it worse, and sometimes that's certainly happens. 37:54.810 --> 37:56.991 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, we did, and I was talking about different woods that we use. 37:57.031 --> 38:00.693 [SPEAKER_03]: We did a batch once with, oh, Sage Orange. 38:00.893 --> 38:01.573 [SPEAKER_03]: There's one of the woods. 38:02.373 --> 38:02.953 [SPEAKER_03]: It was awful. 38:03.254 --> 38:04.094 [SPEAKER_03]: It was awful. 38:04.114 --> 38:05.294 [SPEAKER_03]: It had to all go down the drain. 38:06.295 --> 38:10.116 [SPEAKER_03]: But, and that's just an expression by the way. 38:10.136 --> 38:13.117 [SPEAKER_03]: So if there's anybody from the EPA listening, yeah. 38:13.237 --> 38:14.218 [SPEAKER_03]: But it all, um, 38:15.198 --> 38:18.181 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, some things don't work out, but it is ultimately about taste. 38:18.221 --> 38:19.402 [SPEAKER_03]: We all have to hear a degree. 38:19.422 --> 38:24.867 [SPEAKER_03]: We have tasting panels that we do internally, and we have to agree that this is something that's good. 38:25.308 --> 38:25.568 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 38:25.808 --> 38:35.538 [SPEAKER_03]: And ideally, it's not something that, well, that's as good as X, but rather, it really stands out on its own. 38:36.018 --> 38:39.503 [SPEAKER_03]: You don't have to compare it to anything else, but is this something that people will like? 38:40.304 --> 38:48.195 [SPEAKER_03]: And we have other ones that are really, that I think are really good, but we have small niches of people who like them, sometimes that's not enough to keep it in the marketplace. 38:48.756 --> 38:50.999 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I definitely can understand that. 38:51.700 --> 39:05.090 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm going to tell you, we talked about adversity, things like that, and, you know, you've built up this great enterprise, but you said that 2009 is about when you, when you started, and but you consider the birthday to be 2013. 39:06.251 --> 39:08.673 [SPEAKER_01]: So seven years into the business was COVID-19. 39:09.734 --> 39:14.217 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is, I think we can all agree, it's like the ultimate challenge I'm assuming. 39:14.697 --> 39:32.000 [SPEAKER_01]: But you became a hero, and that's when I really said, this guy is my hero because of what you did, and you kind of, I think you made your production into something that just put together hand sanitizers for like emergency workers and ambulance and firefighters and things like that. 39:32.440 --> 39:35.342 [SPEAKER_01]: That was a real Superman S on your chest moment. 39:36.023 --> 39:42.428 [SPEAKER_01]: Walk me through how that started and how it evolved because you became iconic. 39:42.528 --> 39:45.210 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think you will always be that for that reason. 39:46.233 --> 39:48.954 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I certainly don't think of myself that way. 39:49.054 --> 39:50.015 [SPEAKER_03]: I wasn't the superhero. 39:50.035 --> 39:57.639 [SPEAKER_03]: It was the people that were working in the hospitals and the nurses and the doctors and the staff there that they were the real heroes. 39:58.359 --> 39:59.640 [SPEAKER_03]: And I just wanted to support them. 40:00.340 --> 40:02.021 [SPEAKER_03]: It was interesting how it came about. 40:02.041 --> 40:07.024 [SPEAKER_03]: And there were plenty of other distilleries that did the same thing we did. 40:07.044 --> 40:09.125 [SPEAKER_03]: It'll be maybe in different fashions or whatever. 40:10.646 --> 40:21.031 [SPEAKER_03]: We had had a meeting that morning as we were going into COVID and they were talking about supply issues and problems, and we talked about making hand sanitizer what could we do. 40:22.251 --> 40:26.033 [SPEAKER_03]: And I also had staff that really weren't going to be able to work or hold sales force. 40:26.753 --> 40:28.514 [SPEAKER_03]: The stores were closing, everything else. 40:28.534 --> 40:32.376 [SPEAKER_03]: There was nothing for some of my people to do, which is never good. 40:37.198 --> 41:01.256 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I talked about this morning we agreed okay this is something we're going to do that afternoon I got a call from the pharmacy manager at the Cleveland Clinic and she had taken a tour of our Old facility and so she knew who we were and she called and they had had a meeting that morning as well And they had said they needed to work on this was one of the things they needed was hand sanitizer And they had heard that distilleries might be able to make 41:01.816 --> 41:25.166 [SPEAKER_03]: hand sanitizer or something approximated whatever and so she called and and she said is that something you'd be interested in doing I said absolutely we had just had that discussion and we talked about it a little

bit and she said okay you know I can have my legal team here drop a agreement you know what will you charge us for it and whatever and I said look we just agreed we would do it that's all the contract I need 41:25.946 --> 41:27.207 [SPEAKER_03]: and we're not going to charge you a dime. 41:27.928 --> 41:29.289 [SPEAKER_03]: You guys need to do this. 41:29.329 --> 41:29.949 [SPEAKER_03]: You're important. 41:29.989 --> 41:31.090 [SPEAKER_03]: You guys are the heroes. 41:31.710 --> 41:36.594 [SPEAKER_03]: And so we made, ultimately we made 416,000 six ounce bottles of hand sanitizer and we gave 41:41.517 --> 41:42.297 [SPEAKER_03]: We gave it all away. 41:42.377 --> 41:51.039 [SPEAKER_03]: Most of it went to the Cleveland Clinic and all of their facilities and their nurses and staff and everybody and the patients working and being treated in those facilities. 41:51.079 --> 42:00.821 [SPEAKER_03]: They got to use it and then the stuff that we that wasn't going to them, we sent out to the fire stations police stations EMTs, nursing homes. 42:01.201 --> 42:08.763 [SPEAKER_03]: Everything sort of in this region that we could reach out to and it gave people here a purpose. 42:09.603 --> 42:25.815 [SPEAKER_03]: and the people who couldn't be doing the regular job, they got involved in making hand sanitizer, whether it was making it or packaging it or whatever, and then the really great thing about it was that people heard about what we were doing, and so I started getting calls from 42:26.656 --> 42:30.199 [SPEAKER_03]: other organizations and other businesses and said how can we help you? 42:30.900 --> 42:46.555 [SPEAKER_03]: So I had people donating boxes and bottles and raw materials and we had trucks pulling up with kegs of beer in them that was going to go skunky because it wasn't being the bars were all closed and we could distill that beer. 42:46.615 --> 42:46.995 [SPEAKER_03]: We had 42:48.016 --> 42:54.563 [SPEAKER_03]: Palette, after Palette of wine that was being pulled out of stores, you know, that we could distill and make that. 42:54.763 --> 43:01.289 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that that was a defining moment in terms of the history of Clinton whiskey and Ossesan organization. 43:01.650 --> 43:07.976 [SPEAKER_03]: We have a simple value statement that's make good whiskey and do the right thing, and that just sort of fit in there perfectly. 43:08.550 --> 43:32.014 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, and that epitomizes your entire mission statement, your brand, everything else I know before you say you want to focus on the company perspective, but you think about it, the best companies are the ones that have forward facing CEOs such as Steve Jobs, how he was Elon Musk, the ultimate, Phil Knight with Nike, these people are front facing and the company isn't suffer at all. 43:32.414 --> 43:36.935 [SPEAKER_01]: I think you, with your values and all those types of things and your experiences, 43:37.955 --> 44:05.903 [SPEAKER_01]: It serves you perfectly and it

serves people because of your humanitarian efforts and in all honesty I know you said that this was a group effort and I understand that but you were the Accelerant and that's the thing because trust and belief not everyone would be that just because they're in that position They always say with great power comes great responsibility and sometimes it means making snap decisions 44:06.483 --> 44:10.850 [SPEAKER_01]: That had to be taxing on the entire group of people you had here. 44:10.870 --> 44:15.957 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, we had, I mean, we certainly had our detractors, people who said you're foolish to give it all away. 44:16.017 --> 44:17.379 [SPEAKER_03]: Why aren't you charging for this? 44:17.539 --> 44:20.223 [SPEAKER_03]: Why aren't you making some money at it? 44:20.263 --> 44:20.323 [SPEAKER_03]: And... 44:21.585 --> 44:39.743 [SPEAKER_03]: you know there were there were government programs that helped us and they really were important to keeping us going so I because there were some grants and some other low interest loans and we took advantage of everything we could that enabled us to do you know people talk about sometimes the intersection of 44:40.364 --> 44:41.265 [SPEAKER_03]: business and government. 44:41.325 --> 44:45.508 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that there are times that it's really important to have that partnership in the sense. 44:46.089 --> 44:52.474 [SPEAKER_03]: And that helped us get through it, helped me keep, we didn't let anybody go, so we didn't let anybody off during that period. 44:53.235 --> 44:58.819 [SPEAKER_03]: Everybody had meaningful work to do and it really was meaningful when people didn't know what the future was. 44:58.839 --> 45:05.705 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think even in terms of the mental state of all of us here, knowing that we were doing something important, helped us get through it as well. 45:06.263 --> 45:09.224 [SPEAKER_01]: was this early in the COVID process like March of 2020? 45:09.264 --> 45:11.384 [SPEAKER_01]: Is that when it was around the time? 45:11.404 --> 45:13.365 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'm not sure exactly, but it's very early on. 45:13.385 --> 45:13.585 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 45:13.925 --> 45:16.886 [SPEAKER_01]: How long did it last for you to be doing all that? 45:19.187 --> 45:26.489 [SPEAKER_03]: We took it pretty much to, you know, when it was finally under control and coming down, I forget what the exact time is. 45:26.529 --> 45:28.069 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, but we did it for quite some time. 45:28.249 --> 45:31.950 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, over 400,000, that's insane. 45:32.030 --> 45:45.293 [SPEAKER_01]: And Cleveland Clinic is a big, enormous company for you to be able to, like, furnish all that kind of, that's unprecedented, it feels like. 45:45.373 --> 45:53.275 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, especially with you, at that point, you'd been, you know, seven years in business officially, like as far as you're, the date that you count. 45:53.835 --> 45:55.056 [SPEAKER_01]: That's so significant. 45:55.196 --> 46:01.998 [SPEAKER_01]: And then of course in 2021, your named notable entrepreneur by Crane's business and how did that feel to you? 46:05.499 --> 46:09.301 [SPEAKER_03]: It was good, but it's, it's not my thing. 46:09.401 --> 46:10.581 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a token. 46:10.781 --> 46:13.722 [SPEAKER_03]: I just want to do, I want to make good whiskey and do the right thing. 46:14.343 --> 46:17.724 [SPEAKER_01]: And I just think that's such an excellent thing. 46:18.644 --> 46:22.026 [SPEAKER_01]: You mentioned that your wife she passed away. 46:24.075 --> 46:36.138 [SPEAKER_03]: she passed away right before her call but actually and she'd been ill for a long time So in some ways it was probably a blessing that that she left That but yeah, it was a tough time. 46:36.378 --> 46:42.980 [SPEAKER_01]: How how did she affect you her presence as you were starting this journey with Thal Kluven whiskey? 46:48.040 --> 46:53.385 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, in lots of ways, she was my sort of guiding light in my north star. 46:53.865 --> 46:59.970 [SPEAKER_03]: And I was caring for her, and the care took a lot. 47:00.771 --> 47:05.195 [SPEAKER_03]: But it was clear that this is something I needed to do and wanted to do. 47:05.635 --> 47:09.278 [SPEAKER_03]: And you sort of never expect it. 47:09.358 --> 47:13.362 [SPEAKER_03]: And it was odd because I had just going through that process with my mom. 47:14.550 --> 47:18.412 [SPEAKER_03]: and Anita and my wife, she had helped. 47:20.793 --> 47:32.059 [SPEAKER_03]: She was really an angel with respect to caring for my mom and that I was able to do that for her then was definitely a blessing. 47:32.939 --> 47:59.634 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, I tell you what, man, that she's really your support system like I talked about, you know, she, she inspired you, she motivated you and I think that her spirit, especially being on the heels of COVID, I think that that actually helped propel you and you kind of buried yourself into this sounds like you buried yourself in the Well, if there's anything I regret is that she's not here today to see what we're continuing to build. 48:01.115 --> 48:28.130 [SPEAKER_03]: what's your ambition for for this for this company going forward like say five years from today in a perfect world in your mind what does this company look like well as you can see there's still a lot of work that has to be done in this building you know we we borrowed a lot of money got a lot of investment to sort of make the building operational you know it's an old historic building we're the ones who put it on the historic register we showed up the walls we 48:28.990 --> 48:47.255 [SPEAKER_03]: brought in all the miles of electric and all the plumbing, Doug trenches, and everything else that was necessary to make this operational again, were about to start raising money again to try to finish the building, to put in the windows, to add the air conditioning in spaces like this. 48:47.375 -->

48:49.635 [SPEAKER_03]: And so there's still a lot to be done. 48:49.675 --> 48:51.936 [SPEAKER_03]: I'd love to see it, quote, finished. 48:53.196 --> 48:54.137 [SPEAKER_03]: That would be a good thing. 48:56.638 --> 49:06.983 [SPEAKER_03]: I hope to, yet, one of my bucket list things is to sail across the Atlantic in a boat that I essentially build or refurbish myself and do it by myself. 49:08.003 --> 49:15.267 [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm going to get this to a point where I can have some other people run it while I take that trip. 49:15.427 --> 49:18.688 [SPEAKER_01]: that boat will have to have real windows, not like those fake submarine. 49:19.148 --> 49:21.809 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought they had windows, that will be perfect. 49:22.330 --> 49:30.153 [SPEAKER_01]: I tell you what, man, when it comes to entrepreneurs, aspiring entrepreneurs, or even ones that are existing and struggling, what advice would you give them? 49:30.473 --> 49:33.474 [SPEAKER_03]: I would give them the Nike logo, just do it, just do it. 49:35.268 --> 50:01.268 [SPEAKER_03]: I've seen so many people and I fall into that trap as well at times that you over research, you keep writing what you think is the perfect business plan and you keep going back to it and make it better and make it better and you got to study this and got to study that whereas if you can get into the marketplace you're going to learn more than you're ever doing by outside research and don't be afraid of those failures. 50:02.088 --> 50:07.990 [SPEAKER_03]: And if you can do them young, while you have plenty of opportunity ahead of you, it's even easier. 50:08.650 --> 50:14.372 [SPEAKER_03]: And especially entrepreneurs who, you know, they don't have kids yet, things like that. 50:14.412 --> 50:26.236 [SPEAKER_03]: That's the ideal time, although I remember and my son would tell you about the times that, you know, we would come in on weekends and clean the bathrooms and empty the trash and we were 50:27.636 --> 50:34.400 [SPEAKER_03]: You know raw doors that we put on soil horses for the company desks and things like that So they think got involved in an early stage as well. 50:35.181 --> 50:35.421 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow. 50:36.021 --> 50:36.622 [SPEAKER_01]: That's incredible. 50:36.662 --> 50:44.146 [SPEAKER_01]: This this is my my grand finale question Okay, I'm expecting something big now. 50:44.906 --> 50:51.070 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm hanging I'm hanging out with my wife And we're sitting on the couch and we're just like Pan 50:52.012 --> 50:53.073 [SPEAKER_01]: want to have something to drink. 50:54.174 --> 51:04.785 [SPEAKER_01]: And if I wanted to come here, what is the number one thing that I should have with her that feels a little romantic and not too tough? 51:05.686 --> 51:08.008 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, so this romantic, I think it should be in a cocktail. 51:08.248 --> 51:15.496 [SPEAKER_03]: So I think you're going to want something in a cocktail, but I'd want to know more about, I know a little bit about

your preferences, I want to know about her preferences. 51:15.810 --> 51:21.858 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, she used to, like, Tennessee, but she doesn't drink it much now because it makes her feet swell, bud. 51:22.398 --> 51:30.648 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I would say what I'd want her to try, we have a chocolate peanut butter whiskey called Magic Rabbit. 51:31.269 --> 51:40.174 [SPEAKER_03]: Which is, and I must admit, before we made this, I never would have thought of it as something pretty good, but my God, it's wonderful. 51:40.575 --> 51:45.017 [SPEAKER_03]: People make milkshakes out of it, they pour it on pancakes, they chill it, they drink it by itself. 51:45.177 --> 51:50.681 [SPEAKER_03]: I drink it half and half with blanco tequila, it is to die for, it's a great drink. 51:51.401 --> 51:54.323 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's not a classic whiskey, it's totally different. 51:54.343 --> 51:55.664 [SPEAKER_03]: In fact, I didn't even want to make it. 51:55.784 --> 51:59.067 [SPEAKER_03]: And it was my son who kept coming to me over and over and over again. 51:59.087 --> 51:59.647 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a dad. 51:59.687 --> 52:02.789 [SPEAKER_03]: We've got to be in this market of flavored whiskeys. 52:03.490 --> 52:04.330 [SPEAKER_03]: And I would always tell him. 52:04.350 --> 52:07.673 [SPEAKER_03]: I said, no, no, that's not the real stuff. 52:07.913 --> 52:10.735 [SPEAKER_03]: I want to focus on good quality whiskeys. 52:11.375 --> 52:16.399 [SPEAKER_03]: And he would come back and forth and I'd see him coming in to my office and say, just get out of here. 52:16.459 --> 52:17.900 [SPEAKER_03]: Don't even tell me again. 52:17.920 --> 52:19.021 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to know about it. 52:19.101 --> 52:20.062 [SPEAKER_03]: But to his credit, 52:20.842 --> 52:22.422 [SPEAKER_03]: and he's much like me in this way. 52:23.143 --> 52:26.283 [SPEAKER_03]: He decided it was important enough that he went behind my back didn't tell me. 52:26.303 --> 52:32.865 [SPEAKER_03]: He got some of the operations staff and the distillers to work with them and they crafted up a bunch of things. 52:32.905 --> 52:35.786 [SPEAKER_03]: They worked on it for a long time and one day then he brought something. 52:35.826 --> 52:37.166 [SPEAKER_03]: He brought a little cup into my desk. 52:37.606 --> 52:39.406 [SPEAKER_03]: On my desk said, Dad, you're going to try that. 52:40.627 --> 52:41.167 [SPEAKER_03]: I sipped it. 52:42.387 --> 52:44.088 [SPEAKER_03]: And I said, why aren't we making this? 52:44.248 --> 52:45.468 [SPEAKER_03]: This is really good. 52:45.488 --> 52:47.729 [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't realize that he really had made it. 52:48.410 --> 52:51.791 [SPEAKER_03]: And it was like, and we already made it, Dad, we can do this. 52:52.411 --> 52:54.432 [SPEAKER_03]: So I love it. 52:54.452 --> 52:55.012 [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's great. 52:55.072 --> 52:58.914 [SPEAKER_03]: Now, classic whiskey, something totally, I think you should do something a little different. 52:59.574 --> 53:03.256 [SPEAKER_03]: We make a bourbon whiskey that we finish with black cherry wood. 53:04.316 --> 53:08.057 [SPEAKER_03]: It's part of our Cleveland Underground line, which I think is phenomenal. 53:08.118 --> 53:11.119 [SPEAKER_03]: You as a whiskey drinker, I would recommend something like that. 53:12.439 --> 53:18.863 [SPEAKER_03]: I'd also say start with it neat, no ice, no soda, no part of me would not be ice. 53:18.983 --> 53:25.606 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, but try it that way first, then get some crushed ice, not full ice cubes, but crushed ice. 53:26.206 --> 53:32.429 [SPEAKER_03]: You put a little, little to sliver in there, trying again, the aroma and the flavor will change. 53:33.510 --> 53:36.031 [SPEAKER_03]: You can do that over and over again with 8 or 10 or 12 little slivers, 53:38.491 --> 53:49.053 [SPEAKER_03]: with less water going into it than if you're throwing a ice cube in there, and you get to experience a whole rate like a melody of flavors and colors and tastes. 53:50.654 --> 53:57.275 [SPEAKER_03]: My late wife, she used to say, you know, Tom, the reason you do it that way is because you're a cheap bastard and you don't want to buy your drinks. 53:57.776 --> 54:00.876 [SPEAKER_03]: And this way you get for the price of one, you get all of these. 54:01.256 --> 54:05.717 [SPEAKER_03]: And she was half joking when she said that, but it's true. 54:08.538 --> 54:17.400 [SPEAKER_03]: the metal ones or the stones or the whiskey stones because they can ship the glass I tell everybody don't use that and don't use a full ice cube just to loot it too quickly. 54:17.780 --> 54:34.224 [SPEAKER_03]: Later on after you really experienced all the flavors you think try it with ice cube and that may be your preferred methodology or the for drinking approach but that's that's that's that's if that's not a mic drop I don't know what is I'm gonna tell you right now this is my promise to you 54:38.665 --> 55:04.452 [SPEAKER_01]: your brand, augment your brand, and I'm going to do a review and put it on all the social media of that drink, because people always say you should get into this these review things, because I do humorous reviews, and they're brutally honest, and you got me really excited about that, because you told a story, that's the power of the true storytellers 55:08.093 --> 55:11.497 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the entire thing that I'm always about. 55:11.597 --> 55:18.785 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I remember the comparative review, the one that helped us the most, not that I'm saying take this approach. 55:19.266 --> 55:23.670 [SPEAKER_03]: But the one that actually helped us the most is the guy who said our whiskey tasted like sheep is. 55:24.111 --> 55:27.034 [SPEAKER_03]: Because it was so ridiculous that it was clear he had never tried it. 55:27.955 --> 55:29.976 [SPEAKER_03]: Now, we've had some great reviews in the past. 55:30.056 --> 55:36.518 [SPEAKER_03]: We just had one reviewer said our magic rabbit is the best peanut butter whiskey in the market today. 55:37.198 --> 55:39.899 [SPEAKER_03]: And so, and there's a lot of things to try. 55:40.279 --> 55:43.820 [SPEAKER_01]: So you're giving me an idea, say, because my wife, she's a white woman. 55:44.340 --> 55:51.763 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm thinking maybe you should name a drink after us where it would have something involving chocolate and vanilla, or something. 55:53.003 --> 55:54.324 [SPEAKER_01]: that'll be awesome. 55:54.904 --> 55:55.865 [SPEAKER_01]: I think this is great, man. 55:56.085 --> 55:59.266 [SPEAKER_01]: Listen, I love everything you stand for you are phenomenal. 55:59.306 --> 56:02.328 [SPEAKER_01]: I love the fact that in your slogan you say do the right thing. 56:02.888 --> 56:07.811 [SPEAKER_01]: All that stuff is it just really puts you as a master. 56:07.831 --> 56:10.512 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to say the same thing about you. 56:10.833 --> 56:11.673 [SPEAKER_03]: I love this book. 56:12.553 --> 56:13.574 [SPEAKER_03]: Winning is for losers. 56:13.694 --> 56:18.617 [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's there's a great story in that and I think the concept of 56:19.537 --> 56:25.043 [SPEAKER_03]: losing and becoming a winner out of that and using that and using those failures to inform you and help you and drive you. 56:25.503 --> 56:26.364 [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's a big deal. 56:26.464 --> 56:27.985 [SPEAKER_03]: So congratulations to that as well. 56:28.005 --> 56:36.654 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I appreciate that and I'd be honored if you'd be in the second version of that book because you are one of those. 56:36.674 --> 56:38.696 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 56:38.976 --> 56:39.737 [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate you, man. 56:56.982 --> 56:57.233 [SPEAKER_04]: Let's go!