النص الكامل لحلقة Ep. 367: What if We Could Understand Animal Language?

looking at patterns of timing, like if chickadees tend to vocalize first, are there responses from, say, nuthatches or other bird species? 00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:51.839 And it's really interesting that you picked that out because we just did a study recently where we were analyzing data that people have recorded on their cell phones and uploaded to these public citizen science databases. 00:04:52.000 --> 00:05:04.800 And we did find this pattern where we saw that chickadees tended to be the ones that were sort of initiating contact or conversation with other species and that they're almost like leaders in some sense of these mixed species groups. 00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:14.480 And it has me thinking a little bit about just like the flow of information through the world around us. 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:20.480 So much of it is really invisible to humans, but like hearing the birds call gives us that bit of an insight. 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:31.360 And I think chickadees kind of are like the alarms, and they'll call, and then you'll have a wave of other species, and that information propagates like across the ecosystem, across levels. 00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:32.560 That's so cool. 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:36.560 What about marine species intercommunication? 00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:48.079 I remember being on, I think it was in California, and I was on a whale watching thing near San Diego, and we saw dolphins hanging out with the whales. 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:50.399 I mean, they were, and they were big whales. 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:52.160 Yeah, absolutely. 00:05:52.319 --> 00:05:59.120 That happens all the time, socializing together and listening and reacting to each other's signals. 00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:00.240 It was interesting. 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:11.120 I was just on an orca research boat a few weeks ago where we were off the north coast of Vancouver Island and we were kind of motoring around and observing orcas opportunistically. 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:17.600 And we had a microphone in the water, so we were also listening to them as we were seeing them from the surface. 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:24.959 And when white-sided dolphins come around these groups of resident orcas, they get really quiet. 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:31.519 And I think what's going on is the dolphins are almost like annoying them or distracting them in some way. 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:37.120 And so they're trying to get them to go away, and they're like, oh, just don't talk, don't give them any reason to stick around. 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:41.120 And then if the dolphins go away, they're a chatty again. 00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:47.439 And so it's almost seen as a form of encouragement, maybe if they continue to vocalize and speak. 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:53.120 That's so funny because that's totally how we anthropomorphosize dolphins. 00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:56.879 Like they're the chatty cheerleader animal that's like, hey guys, what you doing? 00:06:57.279 --> 00:06:57.839 What are you up to? 00:06:58.000 --> 00:06:58.319 What is that? 00:06:58.399 --> 00:06:58.959 Where are you going? 00:06:59.120 --> 00:06:59.920 Have you been there before? 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:03.279 You know, we kind of make them little cartoons in that way. 00:07:03.600 --> 00:07:03.920 Yeah. 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:07.279 And so I do worry about anthropomorphizing too much. 00:07:07.439 --> 00:07:11.040 Like we could be projecting our own views of the world onto these other species. 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:13.360 I think it's helpful sometimes, though. 00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:23.120 Like we do share a lot of similarities, especially with other mammals and thinking about family relations or wanting to form groups that are stable across our lives. 00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:27.600 And so some of the perspectives does transfer. 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:30.480 It's just something we have to be really thoughtful and careful about. 00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:43.600 And that comes up a lot when we're studying communication, especially because we bring in so many of our own beliefs of like what a conversation looks like or what intelligent discussion looks like, even. 00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:45.360 Yeah, that's so true. 00:07:45.600 --> 00:08:00.079 In some way, giving animals human qualities based on our observations can help with the goal of getting people to care about animals, because we care about things that are most like us. 00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:13.120 Yeah, and I I guess I hesitate to answer because that's almost a fundamental limitation of our human perspective, is that it's really hard to relate when something isn't as similar. 00:08:13.279 --> 00:08:29.040 Like we don't immediately understand expressions of joy or fear or any other kind of emotions if they're not expressed in a similar way, which kind of gets us to this goal of like translating or being able to understand and interpret other species. 00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:31.279 So I have two minds about it. 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:55.360 I see the benefits, and I think it helps people relate, but also I want to be able to respect other species for their uniqueness and novelty and not be focused on, you know, human exceptionalism is like humans being our standard of what existence and consciousness and intelligence looks like and being more open to it manifesting in different ways. 00:08:55.679 --> 00:09:03.919 And I think that's a process that's going to take a long time and just like more exposure and time with other species and deeper understanding. 00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:13.200 I can see where you're of two minds about it because on the one hand, it's an easy on-ramp to environmental ethic for those that have zero. 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:19.360 And on the other hand, it can encourage that human exceptionalism that you talked about. 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:22.240 Which is ultimately what we're trying to get away from. 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:23.039 I think. 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:29.600 Like we're

we're trying to increase our sense of wonder and awe at the world around us. 00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:43.840 But yeah, that's a funny thing about so much of the animal communication research being done today is that the suggested pathway to that is like understanding another species language, which gets us back to this really human way of viewing the world. 00:09:44.240 --> 00:09:49.039 But there are lots of ways to absorb awe and wonder. 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:53.759 And one of them is through hearing the actual vocalizations. 00:09:53.919 --> 00:10:01.039 And you yourself said that the way that you understood Orca's changed on that trip. 00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:02.799 Can you share about that? 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:04.639 Yeah, I guess. 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:11.440 So one thing I think a lot about is human language has infinite flexibility. 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:16.639 We can combine words in different ways to describe anything that's happening or any idea we have. 00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:37.759 And then when we're listening to another species, or you're going through sound clips of orcas, hearing all the different calls they make, one of the first things that I thought was like, wow, there's a pretty limited repertoire, at least of the signals that we hear really often, these whistles, they're making the same calls over and over again. 00:10:38.399 --> 00:10:48.240 And so automatically I think that must be a limit in some kind of boundary around what could be expressed or like the possibility space there. 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:55.519 And I know there is like variation within a signal type and other ways of like conveying information or meaning. 00:10:55.919 --> 00:11:12.320 But I started to think more about things like timing and repetition of signals and how just thinking about bird song, for example, you'll hear a bird sing the same few notes over and over and over again in the spring. 00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:20.000 And the goal isn't just to like repeat themselves, it's more to induce a feeling in whoever is listening or evoke some kind of response. 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:24.559 And so I started to think that there could be something like that happening with the orcas. 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:38.080 And this emerged through conversation with the biologists who were living on the boat, too, of just thinking it could be timing or alternating, saying the same signal amongst different whales or repeating with more emphasis each time. 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:41.200 So in that sense, I started to think about them differently. 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:44.799 I also trying to think how else my view changed. 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:46.879 Well, I have a I have an orca clip. 00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:47.519 We can play it. 00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:50.240 It might it might inspire your memory. 00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:50.559 Okay. 00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:22.000 I love that. 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:23.200 That is so cool. 00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:24.240 I'm inspired. 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:28.399 Just it's so the breaths in between are so neat. 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:31.919 But I mean, what do you learn from listening to that? 00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:34.799 I guess what do you learn by listening? 00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:37.919 And because of the AI, how do you unpack that? 00:12:38.240 --> 00:12:47.120 So as we were taking that recording, we also had somebody on the boat who's a professional photographer flying a drone looking down at the orcas. 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:52.799 And so we could see this like live stream, watching them under the surface of the water, seeing what they're doing. 00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:57.679 And as they're making all of those sounds, they're often reacting to each other. 00:12:57.919 --> 00:13:05.600 And the group will be changing directions or changing behaviors or doing things like sharing a salmon that they're eating together. 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:13.679 So in that sense, you start to really see how signals could correspond to meetings or different situations. 00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:18.080 I think it gave me a real appreciation of their social bonds too. 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:24.320 Like these are family groups that stay together for their whole lives and they must know each other so well and have such a deep familiarity. 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:35.360 And you could hear it in that recording a little bit, but one thing that was really audible were motors of boats that were sailing around Vancouver Island. 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:43.200 And at one point, a cruise ship went by when we were recording and the sound was deafening. 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:47.600 Like you just hear this roar on the hydrophone, and we had a speaker set up on the boat. 00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:49.200 So we were all listening to it. 00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:54.639 And the orcas kept vocalizing and they actually swam up around the cruise ship. 00:13:54.799 --> 00:14:05.279 So I think like even though the volume of the motors is making it harder for them to communicate, they were really curious and they, in some ways, seemed a bit habituated. 00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:23.840 So it brought up questions of like, have they adapted in some sense to get around this, what we call masking, this drowning out of their communication, or are they just not able to behave the way they usually would and they were stopping to look at the humans that are sort of interrupting their day? 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:26.799 Yeah, I think it's probably a lot of the latter. 00:14:27.039 --> 00:14:29.360 Like, we're definitely not helping them by being out there. 00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:30.399 That's interesting. 00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:37.279 Because we are so centric to ourselves, we think, oh, look, there's an orca. 00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:38.159 Very natural. 00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:44.320 No one's saying that's bad, but we don't often stop to think that the orcas are like, hey, look, there's some humans. 00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:45.759 Let's go

take a look. 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:48.399 Yes, one of my coworkers was saying that too. 00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:55.200 It took really being out on the boat for a while to see we're not just reacting to the animals, they're reacting to us too. 00:14:55.440 --> 00:15:00.000 And it goes both ways, and we're for sure modifying their behavior just by being out there. 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:01.919 So that's the thing we have to account for, also. 00:15:02.159 --> 00:15:02.799 Oh, I love that. 00:15:02.879 --> 00:15:07.679 Okay, so talk to me about dolphins because you've got some new dolphin research. 00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:08.559 Yeah. 00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:16.080 So we are collaborating with some researchers who have a long-term study of dolphins in Sarasota Bay. 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:26.879 But what they're able to do is actually put tags on dolphins and sometimes do this with pairs of dolphins that are swimming next to each other. 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:44.320 So they're getting a recording from each individual, and they're able to sit on the boat and observe what the dolphins are doing, get audio of what each is saying, and then start to understand how they're navigating the world together, how they're solving problems, how they're playing or having social interactions. 00:15:44.639 --> 00:15:51.360 And this is really kind of the one of the big bets we're taking that I think is a really good approach. 00:15:51.519 --> 00:15:58.960 Like we're correlating use of different signals, certain structures or sounds that are made with certain situations. 00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:05.919 And if we have enough data, we can start to see these patterns of like, okay, every time these two dolphins are playing, they use a certain call. 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:09.600 And so that must have some kind of function for that situation. 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:22.080 And there's been a lot of work done on dolphin communication in general, and it's really focused on whistles, in particular signature whistles, which are almost like dolphin names. 00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:38.639 So when a dolphin is young, it will kind of invent or come up with its own unique whistle that it adopts for its whole life and it will make it over and over again when encountering new dolphins or in different social situations. 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:40.879 And it's kind of like a name tag. 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:44.799 Like they are saying, I could say, I am Sarah over and over again. 00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:48.960 And it doesn't totally make sense when you think about human naming conventions. 00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:55.519 The dolphins do this, and then if they want to get the attention of another dolphin, they will mimic that other dolphin's whistle. 00:16:55.600 --> 00:17:05.039 And so it's almost like saying, like, hey Meredith, listen to what I have to say, or somehow like making them know that the message is intended for them. 00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:08.720 So that's really interesting and incredible. 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:15.920 But we're trying to look beyond these signature whistles as well and start to map out the functions of the rest of their vocabulary. 00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:21.119 Dolphins are so interesting because there's, you know, they're so intelligent. 00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:29.519 And so I think when it comes to interspecies understanding, they're definitely, whether they want it or not, the poster child. 00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:42.079 Because, you know, it's not just now, but in the past, all of these animal experiments have been done on dolphins to try to either understand what they're saying or get them to speak English. 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:50.079 In fact, when I was at the spy museum in Washington, D.C., I learned about the US government trying to make dolphins spies. 00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:56.240 And I thought, wow, that's really incredible that that was an actual serious experiment that went on. 00:17:56.400 --> 00:17:59.039 But it does bring up the ethics part of it. 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:14.240 If we succeed in interspecies communication with dolphins and other animals, how do we know that bad actors aren't gonna wanna, you know, make the dolphins spy slaves or something like that? 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:19.680 I mean, that's not a ridiculous proposition if the government has tried to do that before. 00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:28.720 And and really, humans have a pretty horrible track record of developing technologies like this and exploiting other people, other animals. 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:34.400 So I think it's a real risk, even just thinking about the orcas we were just talking about. 00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:45.359 You can imagine if we started to understand the meaning of different orca calls, you could manipulate wild whales into coming closer to your whale watching boat by playing the correct signals to them or something like that. 00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:50.079 Which I have done that in Colorado with my Merlin app. 00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:53.200 I'm I'm I don't know, I'm confessing now. 00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:59.200 But we were on a hike in a really, I don't remember what the name of the area was, but it was really populated. 00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:00.880 It was like paved, it was very nice. 00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:02.960 We were going around some big rock. 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:06.880 And I thought I saw, I think it was a magpie. 00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:10.799 It was something like I don't see a lot here in the Florida panhandle. 00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:16.480 And so I looked up magpie and then found the call, turned my phone way up and then played it. 00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:21.759 And the magpie came, sure shit, came out of the woods and it started dancing around. 00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:23.200 And we were like, oh my gosh. 00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:25.039 And then I felt that and then I turned it off. 00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:27.119 But I mean, the temptation's there. 00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:28.880 And

obviously I succumbed. 00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:30.640 Yes, and I've done that too. 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:38.960 And that's kind of a classic birding technique, too, is like you do this pissing sound or something like that to make the birds perch on a branch and come close to you. 00:19:39.279 --> 00:19:41.599 So, okay, so then that gets into ethics. 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:51.920 Like, where do we draw the line of what is satisfying human curiosity or serving even for entertainment versus what is somehow serving the other species? 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:55.200 And what you did, I think is fine. 00:19:55.279 --> 00:19:58.480 And I think it's interesting to understand what other species react to. 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:09.440 And then I guess the line there would be something like if you're stressing out the animal or you're causing them to not eat because they're sitting there waiting for you to play another sound from your phone. 00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:24.880 But once we start to talk about actually applying some of the tools Earth Species Project is developing, like if we did have recorders out all the time recording whales across the globe, that's almost a form of surveillance. 00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:29.039 And the whales did not consent to that. 00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:40.000 And then so the responsibility is with us to decide that it's okay to do this kind of recording and to use that data for something that would benefit them. 00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:42.240 And then I have pretty strong feelings about this. 00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:49.440 There's a lot of conversation in the media right now about having conversations with other species, like two-way communication. 00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:56.160 And there are certain organizations that have even created prizes trying to give a lot of money for research groups that show they have done this. 00:20:56.480 --> 00:21:04.559 And that end goal of having a dialogue with another species, I think is pretty hard to justify ethically. 00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:10.880 Like if another species wanted to interact and communicate with us, they would, and they do all the time. 00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:23.039 And this isn't so if we just manage to do this using AI, I don't really see it helping them any more than like typical traditional conservation measures would. 00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:45.839 Where I think we're going to get benefit is if we start to better understand how other species are like using their resources, their environment, navigating the world, what kind of instincts or senses they have, ways of perceiving their surroundings and how they're reasoning and problem solving in those settings. 00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:49.839 Because that's really intelligence, like how they're overcoming challenges. 00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:59.440 And so I think right now the way I see it is these organizations, like like me and the work I'm doing, we have to be really careful with our data. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:05.680 And make sure that if it's available, there are really strict guardrails around how it's used. 00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:12.079 We don't want people training AI models that are just like chatbots essentially to talk to other species. 00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:17.440 And I guess we want to have some kind of guidelines for how it could be applied. 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:20.640 Yeah, I what else occurred to you when you were thinking of ethics? 00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:21.759 I'm curious. 00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:24.400 Oh, I don't know. 00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:41.599 Like if we succeed in multiple marine species language understanding, for example, whether that is two-way or if it's more of a, you know, ethnography style of studying them, just listening and not interacting. 00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:57.759 I I kind of wonder if from that we will understand the hierarchy of the marine animal kingdom, you know, and if that would begin to cause us to see the waters as a sovereign nation run by the animals. 00:22:58.079 --> 00:22:59.519 That's really interesting. 00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:08.400 So we would understand their social organization and then respect those rules and try to not interfere with it. 00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:11.519 Oh, I don't know if I've heard anyone suggest that before. 00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:17.039 I mean, because when you think about it, I mean, it's like an it's it's an it's kind of like another planet. 00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:21.039 You know, when you go scuba diving, you're like, oh my gosh, I feel like I want another world. 00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:21.839 It's really cool. 00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:29.519 And there's the little cracks and pops of the reef, and everything is communication and you can hear, oh, the dolphin. 00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:38.720 Like I was, I was snorkeling a couple of weeks ago, and we were out at the artificial reef, and I had had my head underwater for a while. 00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:43.119 So I'd become accustomed to the baseline of sound. 00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:51.839 And then I heard something change and I couldn't put my finger on it, but it reminded me of when we were in the Florida Keys and we saw a shark. 00:23:52.160 --> 00:24:01.039 Because right before we saw the shark, we heard some sort of like electrical, like it just sounded something was different in the in the reef in the collection of sounds. 00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:06.000 And I and I went up and the lady was like, hey, there's a dolphin coming your way. 00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:08.079 And I went down and there was the dolphin. 00:24:08.319 --> 00:24:10.640 And I just thought, oh wow, that's really cool. 00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:18.720 And so it kind of contributes to my thinking of the underwater world as another planet. 00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:27.440 And if we just plopped our little selves on another planet, we would have to kind of abide by their rules and talk to their people, you know. 00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:29.359 Oh, I really like that. 00:24:29.519 -->

00:24:42.240 It makes me think about, yeah, like when you go to another country, understanding the norms and learning how to not be rude and what is acceptable or not, like humans are absolutely not thinking about that at the moment. 00:24:42.400 --> 00:24:44.960 Well, I mean, we're we're trying to be quiet and just listen. 00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:54.559 But yeah, I think so much could be learned from it, especially when we're looking at interactions between different species or how they communicate. 00:24:54.880 --> 00:25:14.319 Like, do we know anything about why, especially marine species, perform what we interpret as altruistic acts, like a dolphin helping a tired animal get to shore, or the whale that protects the snorkeler from the shark, or stuff like that? 00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:16.799 Do we have we learned anything? 00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:18.480 Gosh, I don't know. 00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:21.440 I that's not an area I'm an expert in. 00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:39.039 Like my intuition would be that like there is a capability for first of all feeling pain, having a subjective experience, and then understanding that other individuals or other species have that as well, and attempting to assist in some way. 00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:43.359 And maybe it's learned from their own experiences reacting with other whales or dolphins. 00:25:43.759 --> 00:25:52.480 But I think there's something that they're reacting to where they're like, this is a person or an individual in distress, and I went to change that and they're doing what they can. 00:25:52.720 --> 00:26:02.000 I know, especially when we're talking about within species, there's a lot of theory about like, oh, it's better to help your relatives because then you're kind of indirectly passing on your own genes. 00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:06.880 But I think it gets really interesting when animals that are not related help each other. 00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:10.160 That's kind of a lot more relevant to most of our human lives too. 00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:10.720 Yeah. 00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:12.079 And it's relevant. 00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:21.599 I mean, this is kind of like the opposite, but like the orcas who are attacking random boats, you know, like that that's relevant for the person in that boat. 00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:28.640 And it would be interesting to learn more about what they are saying when they're going to go do that? 00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:37.519 Why is there this collaborative effort to attack a boat that doesn't provide food that wasn't presenting a threat to you? 00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:38.480 Do you know what I mean? 00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:59.039 So I guess on on stuff that's kind of in that category, is Earth Species Project at all, from a research standpoint, able to reverse engineer and find maybe an answer to those problems by going, okay, we know orcas attack these boats in this part of the ocean. 00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:03.599 Let's let's put a boat in that part of the ocean and get a

microphone in the water. 00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:23.039 Yeah, I think that's what we're eventually going for, maybe not necessarily with the boats, just because we're not studying the orcas there, but trying to recreate these naturalistic situations and almost make it an experiment where we have a prediction about what's going to happen in this exact context, and then we we set up the scenario and see if it plays out. 00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:34.319 I was talking to an orca researcher recently about the boat attacks, and their theory was that the orcas are playing and they're just having a good time. 00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:38.880 And I think what that brought up for me is like, well, play is really interesting too. 00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:56.240 Like humans have different forms of play, and it would be fun to kind of get a better understanding of how that occurs in other species and not just play, but also more communication-based things like jokes, or do they have an equivalent of rhyming or like other kinds of word play? 00:27:56.480 --> 00:28:01.200 And I think they must, and I think we're just completely missing it right now because we're oblivious. 00:28:01.519 --> 00:28:04.000 Oh, I want to know a dolphin joke. 00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:06.240 I need to know a dolphin joke. 00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:08.640 Also, do animals swear? 00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:11.519 They have to, I would think. 00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:15.200 Like there must be like you said this podcast talks about taboos. 00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:19.359 There must be taboo topics of things that are like less acceptable to say. 00:28:19.519 --> 00:28:19.839 Yeah. 00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:23.359 That's oh, I really like that as a study area too. 00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:26.240 I've I have kind of a short list going of things that would be interesting. 00:28:26.319 --> 00:28:28.559 I said farewells before saying goodbye. 00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:30.480 I think that's kind of fascinating. 00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:31.039 Yeah. 00:28:31.359 --> 00:28:33.359 What about past and future tense? 00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:36.960 Are there any animals that will say, tomorrow I will do this? 00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:42.559 And hey, remember when Bob really messed up that, you know, food hunt we had? 00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:43.599 Stuff like that. 00:28:43.920 --> 00:28:53.920 Yeah, there's evidence that orangutans have a way of doing a past tense, and it can indicate that something happened, not now, but previously. 00:28:54.079 --> 00:29:04.960 And I think this is Adriano Lemera, who's a UK-based researcher, who's found that orangutans can talk about encountering a predator the day before. 00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:09.519 And that was kind of a scenario where they set up a fake predator going close to their nest. 00:29:09.839 --> 00:29:33.680 I and that's like that's a pretty big deal because in general, talking about language, there's sort of this very human-centric definition of what is language, and there's a list of characteristics that language has to consist of, and it's it's all about setting humans apart from other species and having like past tense or ability to reference things that are not present is one of those qualifiers. 00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:39.119 And if we're showing that other species can do that, it kind of like overturns what we think language is. 00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:42.240 Do animals talk about humans? 00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:55.680 I think parrots have been shown to have names not just for each other, but also for other things in their environment, like inanimate objects, other parrots, but also humans or other like things they interact with. 00:29:55.839 --> 00:29:57.759 So they're definitely an example. 00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:03.839 But I think they all must have some way of indicating that people are present, if if that's a thing that happens in their lives. 00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:08.240 What is the data showing as far as some of these more novel insights? 00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:28.000 Because I'm just, you know, spouting out my curiosities to you, but I'm sure you've come across some more, maybe not like benchmark insights from the AI interpretation of animal language, but something that more is in that novel understanding category. 00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:33.599 There's a fun one from a study that I just finished up working with African elephants. 00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:38.400 And so elephants communicate with these very low frequency rumbles. 00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:43.440 Some of them are kind of below the range of human hearing, so you need a really good microphone to record them. 00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:52.799 And most of the time, it's not just one elephant rumbling, it's several elephants all rumbling simultaneously and they're overlapping one another. 00:30:53.119 --> 00:31:03.839 And we had this really big archive of recordings from a researcher that has dedicated her life to studying elephants and collecting data and following them around the savannah. 00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:06.400 Joyce Poole, who's brilliant. 00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:19.200 And we were studying these rumble choruses, and we found that there's this pattern of convergence where towards the end of the course, all the elephants start to kind of resemble each other. 00:31:19.279 --> 00:31:21.920 Like their rumbles sound more the same. 00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:25.759 And I think that's cool because humans do that. 00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:33.680 Like we mirror each other and we kind of like use the same pacing or words or even like accents sometimes in conversation. 00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:47.759 And it doesn't always happen in the elephants, it's it's just the situations where there's some kind of coordination as a group, like where they're deciding where to go next or like they're making a plan together, potentially. 00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:49.599 We think that could be what's happening. 00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:55.599 So also, it just like for me, it changes the way I

think about a conversation. 00:31:55.759 --> 00:32:05.359 It's not people taking turns talking one at a time, they're all talking simultaneously, and there's like in the moment dynamic coordination, and that's how they're conveying information. 00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:06.559 Yeah, that's so cool. 00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:08.160 We have that clip actually. 00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:09.440 Let's let's play that. 00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:25.359 So I think these are different elephants calling right now. 00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:36.319 Yeah, and so I think what that was, having seen that clip before, is a greeting. 00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:41.119 So when elephants have been apart and they come together, they're they're saying hello. 00:32:41.519 --> 00:32:44.799 And sometimes the greetings get really interesting. 00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:45.920 They're very excited. 00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:50.160 So you have trumpets and like kind of growls, and they're very expressive. 00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:51.599 So it's like, what's up? 00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:52.880 Like it's like that. 00:32:53.519 --> 00:32:53.839 Okay. 00:32:54.240 --> 00:32:54.880 Totally. 00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:55.440 Yeah. 00:32:55.599 --> 00:33:07.759 And then they also have one that our collaborator has named like a little greeting, which is when you're already you've already been together for a while in a group and you just kind of go up to somebody and say, like, oh, it's good to see you. 00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:11.359 Like a very personal acknowledgement that you're happy they're there. 00:33:11.599 --> 00:33:12.480 That's so cool. 00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:12.960 Okay. 00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:15.039 Well, what about domestic animals? 00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:18.880 We interact with them a lot, you know, dogs, cats, stuff like that. 00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:26.400 Is there any research about their communication either with each other or in an attempt to talk to us? 00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:28.480 Yeah, there definitely is. 00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:34.799 So there are people out there who are designing like kind of communication devices for pets. 00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:40.720 Like you've seen these button boards for dogs, maybe where they're training the dogs that each button means something. 00:33:40.960 --> 00:33:46.799 They're working on doing some controlled experiments where they could like publish their findings from that. 00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:54.720 And my understanding is that cats are only meowing at humans for humans' benefit. 00:33:54.880 --> 00:34:00.400 Like they wouldn't necessarily be doing that if it were only cats hanging out, at least not the way they do when we're around. 00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:07.279 And so it's a way to get our attention and tell us they need something or or want us for some reason. 00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:11.599 So I mean, I think this communication is happening all the time nonverbally, too. 00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:14.880 Just thinking about when a cat comes and rubs against

your leg or something like that. 00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:17.519 So we're still we're getting an understanding of them. 00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:23.119 But from what I understand, like it's very early stages with decoding their vocal communication. 00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:24.480 Hey, you know what's crazy? 00:34:24.639 --> 00:34:29.519 YouTube told me that only 3% of those of you who watch are actually subscribed to the channel. 00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:37.840 No matter where you enjoy the show, if you want to see me again, consider hitting subscribe or follow and turn on the notifications for new episodes. 00:34:38.079 --> 00:34:39.840 Okay, back to the show. 00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:43.199 Do animals have regional accents? 00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:47.840 For example, uh cardinal here in the south. 00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:54.159 Does it sound like Paula Dean, you know, bird style versus one in the Midwest? 00:34:54.559 --> 00:34:56.000 Yes, they do. 00:34:56.159 --> 00:34:57.360 They completely do. 00:34:57.679 --> 00:35:04.400 Because I mean, so many of their songs are learned, or like birds learn what calls to make by listening to others. 00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:05.679 All the songbirds do. 00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:14.639 And so you're going to just kind of like learn from whoever you're around, and eventually, because of random copying errors, you end up sounding different if you're on different coasts. 00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:16.639 I mean, that's just like a human language. 00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:18.480 That's just exactly the same. 00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:19.360 Yeah. 00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:29.119 And there's been some really cool research where they look at like migration when a bird leaves one population and moves to another part of the country. 00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:39.760 And they've shown that sometimes a bird will like just adopt the new accent, maybe so it fits in better, or maybe it wants to retain its individuality and so it keeps using its old songs. 00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:46.880 There's a really cool example from whales, like humpback whales have this amazing song. 00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:52.079 And in different oceans, whales are singing different songs. 00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:56.480 And all the humpbacks in a population will sing the same song every year. 00:35:56.719 --> 00:36:26.079 But what seems to happen is that I think when they go south and they mix with other populations, like when they're all in Antarctica together, coming from different oceans, they hear snippets of other whale population songs and they learn those, and you get this kind of pattern where you have this whole like movement around the globe of songs going from one population to another, and it's just like slang words getting popular among humans. 00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:30.559 Like you hear something you like and you start to use it, and then everyone in your friend group is using it. 00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:32.960 This is so fascinating. 00:36:33.280 --> 00:36:37.119 But

not everything is like a vocalization, right? 00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:44.880 Like, well, I mean, sometimes the cetaceans they're communicating either above or below our human hearing. 00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:51.679 But there's also my friend and yours, jumping spiders, they have a totally different way of communicating. 00:36:52.079 --> 00:36:54.079 And I think that research is so fascinating. 00:36:54.239 --> 00:36:58.719 Talk about what we've learned through Earth Species Project about jumping spiders. 00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:02.000 Yeah, jumping spiders are incredible. 00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:10.079 So there's a professor at Berkeley that I worked with who has spent their career studying jumping spiders and many different spiders. 00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:12.159 Their name is Damian Elias. 00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:16.079 And so jumping spiders are really diverse. 00:37:16.239 --> 00:37:21.440 There are hundreds of different species, and they're very tiny, they're about the size of a pencil eraser. 00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:24.159 But if you get to look at them up close, they're beautiful. 00:37:24.320 --> 00:37:27.360 And I'm not even a big fan of spiders, but I think they're amazing. 00:37:27.519 --> 00:37:36.639 Like they have these really beautiful colors and they don't hear airborne sound, they only sense sound through whatever surface they're standing on. 00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:40.079 And so it's like substrate-borne vibration, is what they call it. 00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:50.400 And to send a message, they'll do this tapping and they'll tap with their legs or feet, they thump their abdomen, they do like these dances almost. 00:37:50.559 --> 00:37:58.960 They call them songs and dances, where they're combining all these different sounds in a particular order that has some kind of meaning to whatever other spider is listening. 00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:10.159 And if they're standing on a leaf versus a stick or some kind of other surface, the sound will travel differently or have different characteristics. 00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:16.400 So they will choose surfaces that best suit what kind of communication, how far they want the signal to go. 00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:29.039 And so I worked with this professor at Berkeley who has a kind of a recording studio in his lab on campus where he has these spiders standing on a surface and he points a laser. 00:38:29.119 --> 00:38:30.400 It's called a laser vibrometer. 00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:36.960 He points a laser at the surface they're standing on, and he's able to measure how much it vibrates when they do their dances and their thumping. 00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:45.760 And then we can basically treat that signal as it's a time series just showing how much vibration happens at each microsecond. 00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:52.320 We can kind of treat it like a sound file, and we process it the same way we process other audio data. 00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:56.719 We train AI models to recognize, we call it a spider repertoire. 00:38:56.800 --> 00:39:01.039 So, like all the different sounds or like notes a spider can use in their song. 00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:10.159 We have models that recognize those, and then we can see the combinations they're used in and even recognize what species it is just based on the different signals that they're using. 00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:12.800 But I don't know, just imagining that like I know. 00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:13.599 This is so cool. 00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:15.280 Like spider Morse code. 00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:19.039 Next time we have a jumping spider, my husband will get excited. 00:39:19.119 --> 00:39:20.159 Oh, there's a jumping spider. 00:39:20.320 --> 00:39:25.679 And so we'll we'll see if it will kind of play with us and like go from one hand to the other. 00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:36.159 Next time, I am definitely gonna be like, hello, my little friend, and like Morse code on the base of my palm to see if it like responds or something. 00:39:36.320 --> 00:39:36.639 I don't know. 00:39:36.719 --> 00:39:38.719 I'm conducting animal experiments over here. 00:39:38.960 --> 00:39:43.679 This all this stuff really tickles my inner animal nerd, obviously. 00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:48.159 But for the broader audience, why is this work important? 00:39:48.480 --> 00:39:53.360 Especially because AI uses natural resources that the animals need. 00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:54.559 Oh gosh. 00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:59.599 Wow, that's a great setup for the question because we do have to justify everything we're doing. 00:39:59.679 --> 00:40:03.280 Like every bit of compute we're using is using up energy. 00:40:03.519 --> 00:40:06.480 So I think there are a few big whys. 00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:22.000 The one I want to go to first is just like if we understand the world, we understand how other species communicate, we're getting insight into how they evolved, like how related they are to other species. 00:40:22.159 --> 00:40:24.719 So, like processes of evolution on our planet. 00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:31.679 We're understanding how they use the different parts of the ecosystem, what they rely on, what they need for their survival. 00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:37.039 Hopefully, that's helping us do better conservation work or identify threats. 00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:54.159 I mean, really, what we're going for at Earth Species Project is the awe and wonder angle of just being amazed at the complexity of communication in other species and what it reveals about their family structures or how their societies are formed and maintained. 00:40:54.400 --> 00:41:19.760 So just appreciating that other species have rich lives that we might have kind of relegated to human existence in our minds and kind of inspiring curiosity and respect for that, and and bringing up the question of like, okay, if we understand that other species are this complicated or intelligent or advanced, like what should we do for them? 00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:22.400 Like, what do we owe

them in a sense? 00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:28.719 Well, it's very anti-ego, which reminds me of something that the co-founder, Aza Raskin, said. 00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:32.000 He said that listening is the remedy to ego. 00:41:32.159 --> 00:42:07.119 And I wonder, I don't know, a scientific research, that whole community, since I've started the show and talked with, you know, lots of amazing scientists like you, I've learned that unfortunately it is wrought with ego, that there's infighting and politics and hierarchy is part of the unofficial hope of Earth Species Project to shift out of that, both in the broader population, but also in the scientific community that's delivering the message. 00:42:07.519 --> 00:42:09.199 Yes, it absolutely is. 00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:19.280 And I think that's something we're going to become a lot more explicit about in coming years because it has been so much a part of public conversation lately, is talking to other species, for example. 00:42:19.599 --> 00:42:23.119 And I really like the comment about ego. 00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:31.599 And it also reminds me of something that one of the other founders said his name is Brit, where he thinks humans should work on becoming better listeners. 00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:48.000 And it's kind of really radical when you think about like, especially academics, your whole career is developed around like saying things and having people listen to you to just turn that on its head and be focused on understanding and not talking. 00:42:48.079 --> 00:42:50.000 It's just taking a big in-breath. 00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:55.119 And like it's so easy to only exhale or only put things out in the world. 00:42:55.360 --> 00:43:02.079 And that just tunes you out to your own effect and what you're doing to others around you. 00:43:02.480 --> 00:43:11.360 So yeah, I love that description of it being about having less ego and decentering ourselves. 00:43:11.440 --> 00:43:18.159 Like I that seems really to be a big part of it too, is just how it's an innate thing. 00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:23.280 Our view of the world has us at the center, but that's really not how the planet functions. 00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:35.679 And I think sometimes we need to like get a better understanding of what's happening around us to really see that that's the case because we can understand it theoretically, but it's not real until we actually see an example. 00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:50.239 That's such a good point because that's like listening to those clips and being in nature, it helps you understand these things that sound so elementary, like, oh, everything's connected. 00:43:50.400 --> 00:43:51.519 You're like, okay, cool. 00:43:51.599 --> 00:43:52.480 What else you got? 00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:56.880 But when you feel it in a visceral way, it is transformative. 00:43:57.039 --> 00:43:59.840 I mean, it's like, I mean, we're on like, we're in mushroom terms. 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:01.360 Trip territory, I feel like. 00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:02.239 You know what I mean? 00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:04.079 For transformation. 00:44:04.880 --> 00:44:07.039 Oh, I feel like that's exactly the mindset. 00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:09.519 Like there's so many great psychedelic analogies. 00:44:10.159 --> 00:44:10.400 Yeah. 00:44:10.559 --> 00:44:17.119 I mean, that is such a thing that's associated with psychedelics, I guess, is becoming more aware and appreciative of the world around you. 00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:31.199 So I think it's completely anyone who's done ayahuasca had, and that's not me yet, but anyone who has has said like the message of we are one with the earth is so strong, you know. 00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:48.400 And that's part of why I have been following Earth Species Project for a while, is because I find, especially when Aza, you know, is out doing podcasts and stuff, I find him so interesting because he has the potential setup for a total tech bro. 00:44:49.199 --> 00:45:03.760 But he's using tech with incredible researchers like you in order to create something that's a deeper meaning, but also like harder to put your finger on. 00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:08.000 And that's a challenge I think worth worth trying. 00:45:08.400 --> 00:45:09.039 Yeah. 00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:11.440 And and I think he does embody that. 00:45:11.599 --> 00:45:13.119 Like he he is curious. 00:45:13.199 --> 00:45:15.039 And I he started this organization. 00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:22.639 I've I've been at for a few years, and I think that's something we really try to hold on to, that and just being like playful and open. 00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:36.159 And yeah, going back to your ayahuasca analogy, I think people often describe that as something that's very kind of heart-opening or like brings you a feeling of love and appreciation for everything around you. 00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:39.519 And that's exactly what we're trying to accomplish as well. 00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:44.000 And the barriers are not seeing past ourselves. 00:45:44.400 --> 00:46:01.360 And so just opening ourselves up to these possibilities of like other forms of intelligence, like information that we can't even perceive, like types of like society structures, conversations that have completely like different structure and patterns. 00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:10.559 So it's all part of this like shifting our view of the world, and just not realizing that we're not, I guess, yeah, realizing we're not uniquely special. 00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:19.360 So yeah, you can still have wonderment and appreciation for yourself and others with knowing you're not the center of the universe. 00:46:19.599 --> 00:46:27.519 In fact, I think I I read one of your goals is to have a more integrated relationship with all species on Earth. 00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:34.239 Is is that a don't take this the wrong way, is that a realistic goal for Earth Species Project? 00:46:34.480 --> 00:46:42.800 I mean, so I think it's phrased that way because in general,

we want to do no harm and we want to make conditions better for all species. 00:46:43.039 --> 00:46:46.400 We're only able to study a handful at a time. 00:46:46.639 --> 00:46:51.920 So we're quite limited in how much deeper we can go with our understanding at a single step. 00:46:52.159 --> 00:47:01.360 But we are trying to build tools or or put ways of thinking out there that like let humans start to do that more broadly. 00:47:01.519 --> 00:47:06.239 I mean, but that's it's a big goal, and it it isn't just a few people doing it. 00:47:06.320 --> 00:47:08.960 It kind of takes a societal level of change. 00:47:09.199 --> 00:47:14.239 And so that that is a big part of our effort is just like trying to change minds. 00:47:14.559 --> 00:47:16.079 Yeah, absolutely. 00:47:16.400 --> 00:47:29.920 I want to end with something else that Asa brought up because it kind of circles back to I think ethics and the real world, which is, I don't know, I hate saying that, but I think you know what I mean. 00:47:30.079 --> 00:47:38.079 Because you and I are like, yeah, then earth and you know, animals and oneness, and you know, and then it's like, and we're back. 00:47:38.400 --> 00:47:45.119 And we're back to the real world where, you know, people don't all have a robust environmental ethic. 00:47:45.440 --> 00:47:48.079 And we as humans have real needs. 00:47:48.239 --> 00:47:52.400 We have real needs to eat animals, you know, some of us. 00:47:52.559 --> 00:47:58.800 We have real needs to put gas in our car and make, you know, make our community work. 00:47:59.039 --> 00:48:03.280 And so Aza said that there's three laws of technology. 00:48:03.360 --> 00:48:08.559 And the first is that when you create it, you uncover a new level of responsibility. 00:48:08.800 --> 00:48:16.639 The second is that if the technology creates an advantage, there will be a race towards that advantage. 00:48:16.800 --> 00:48:21.519 And the third is if you don't coordinate, that race will end in tragedy. 00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:30.880 So I wanted to ask you what those laws look like in practice at Earth Species Project as you begin to decode animal language. 00:48:31.280 --> 00:48:47.599 Yeah, so there's a lot of effort in the research community right now to create some kind of agreed upon standards or rules for what is okay to do, like when you're studying animals, when you're recording them, what you do with their data. 00:48:47.920 --> 00:48:56.880 So we're trying to draft and put out our suggestions for those best practices in the world, I think, and also model them. 00:48:56.960 --> 00:49:05.679 Like a big way we do that is trying to actually take what we learn in these projects and turn them into some kind of real conservation impact. 00:49:05.920 --> 00:49:12.400 Like, okay, we understand whales are communicating about these things and they care a lot about using this specific part of the world. 00:49:12.480 --> 00:49:20.239 Like, all right, so let's try to do something where we're slowing down the speed that ships can have when they're going through the maximum amount of noise they're exposed to. 00:49:20.559 --> 00:49:28.320 So, yeah, trying to actually like have some real outcomes from the research beyond just learning more that benefits other species. 00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:35.440 And I I guess I hope like clearly we're in the middle of this AI race that he described. 00:49:35.599 --> 00:49:37.840 Everyone's pushing forward. 00:49:38.239 --> 00:49:46.320 I think we're trying to be careful with the amount of compute we use or how big our models are, all of that. 00:49:46.559 --> 00:49:55.599 But also just like put an example out there of a way to use AI that is not evil or not not like exploiting others, or frivolous. 00:49:56.800 --> 00:49:57.280 Yeah. 00:49:57.519 --> 00:49:59.440 Yeah, not even necessarily bad. 00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:03.280 Yeah, just try to give a few good examples of that. 00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:06.400 It is a little bit of a nascent field, though. 00:50:06.480 --> 00:50:11.199 So a lot of these norms or like agreements among researchers don't exist yet. 00:50:11.280 --> 00:50:18.239 So we're just trying to be a part of the conversation and put forward our ideas about what we should do when we're operating in this role. 00:50:18.559 --> 00:50:19.599 Well, I appreciate it. 00:50:19.679 --> 00:50:26.639 I think it is obviously very cool, but I also have a sense that it's very important. 00:50:27.119 --> 00:50:33.599 And I I really love getting your newsletters because I feel like I'm okay, what are they doing now? 00:50:33.760 --> 00:50:40.480 Okay, you know, and they're very detailed and they have like recordings sometimes attached to them so you can listen and interact. 00:50:40.639 --> 00:50:48.000 And in a way, it makes me more present when I'm just in my natural environment. 00:50:48.320 --> 00:50:58.239 And that doesn't really matter for, I don't know, research or like the bigger picture, but it makes my lived experience better. 00:50:58.480 --> 00:51:01.679 And I think for that, it matters, you know, to me. 00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:02.880 So thank you. 00:51:03.039 --> 00:51:04.079 Appreciate it. 00:51:04.480 --> 00:51:05.920 That's so great to hear. 00:51:06.159 --> 00:51:09.519 Tell us how we can stay in touch with Earth Species Project. 00:51:09.679 --> 00:51:14.400 And if you have any hints that you can drop about what's next, I wouldn't mind hearing those too. 00:51:14.719 --> 00:51:19.199 Yeah, we're at earthspecies.org and you can sign up for a newsletter. 00:51:19.360 --> 00:51:22.639 We also have social media so you can follow us from the website. 00:51:22.880 --> 00:51:25.920 We're hoping to do more work with elephants in the future. 00:51:26.079 --> 00:51:37.119 And we're also going to continue working with crows, carry-on crows that live in Spain, which are amazing and brilliant and do all kinds of cool coordinated behavior. 00:51:37.360 --> 00:51:43.199 And yeah, expand our work with orcas too, maybe going even beyond the British Columbia population. 00:51:43.519 --> 00:51:44.400 Well, that's exciting. 00:51:44.559 --> 00:51:45.760 I look forward to hearing it. 00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:47.039 Thank you so much, Sarah. 00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:48.400 Yeah, thanks. 00:51:49.679 --> 00:51:50.800 Thanks for listening. 00:51:50.960 --> 00:51:55.039 Since you've made it this far, I'd like to invite you to be a part of my private Facebook group. 00:51:55.199 --> 00:51:58.239 In there, I post content that I don't share anywhere else. 00:51:58.480 --> 00:52:01.599 You can talk to me directly, and I even do occasional giveaways. 00:52:01.760 --> 00:52:05.760 Search MFR Curious Insiders on Facebook or click the link in the show notes. 00:52:05.920 --> 00:52:13.199 If you liked this episode, you'll also like the one with the host of Shark Week asking if we actually need sharks. 00:52:13.360 --> 00:52:15.280 That's episode 254. 00:52:15.440 --> 00:52:21.679 And stay tuned next week when I talk with a Sex Ed historian asking, should Sex Ed be taught in school? 00:52:21.920 --> 00:52:24.079 Until then, keep it curious.