النص الكامل لحلقة ELECTRONICS

00:04:01.060 --> 00:04:04.419 We're coming up on 16 years ago in June, so we've 00:04:04.419 --> 00:04:07.280 been around a minute. My undergrad degree was 00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:09.039 environmental science from Ithaca College up 00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:12.020 in New York. But I was fortunate in that I was 00:04:12.020 --> 00:04:14.199 exposed to computers from when I was six. We 00:04:14.199 --> 00:04:17.339 always had a computer, played with DOS. My mom 00:04:17.339 --> 00:04:19.660 introduced us to that. She was an old programmer 00:04:19.660 --> 00:04:22.120 back in the day for Computer Sciences Corporation 00:04:22.120 --> 00:04:25.019 and did some cool work at NASA. And so I was 00:04:25.019 --> 00:04:28.079 privy to having computers around. And then I 00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:29.939 just grew up tinkering with them and saw that 00:04:29.939 --> 00:04:32.180 there was value to this thing. And then inherently 00:04:32.180 --> 00:04:35.129 it could translate to a business. become a parent 00:04:35.129 --> 00:04:39.430 at some point. The concept was refurbishing electronics 00:04:39.430 --> 00:04:41.389 for reuse. That was the core business model. 00:04:41.610 --> 00:04:44.370 I'd been doing it kind of on the side in college 00:04:44.370 --> 00:04:48.949 as a way to make some ancillary income. So I 00:04:48.949 --> 00:04:51.129 started it basically on a pool table in my mom's 00:04:51.129 --> 00:04:53.589 basement. We put some plywood across it to not 00:04:53.589 --> 00:04:57.569 damage the felt so I didn't get in trouble. But 00:04:57.569 --> 00:05:00.649 yeah, it was basically that. It was initially 00:05:00.649 --> 00:05:04.660 consumers at the time, one by one. initial partner 00:05:04.660 --> 00:05:08.500 I had, and then we were focusing on kind of the 00:05:08.500 --> 00:05:11.379 refurb and some IT support at the time. But it 00:05:11.379 --> 00:05:14.819 seems that ultimately the scaling, there's more 00:05:14.819 --> 00:05:17.339 scalability to actually fixing the equipment 00:05:17.339 --> 00:05:20.120 up and doing it at scale as opposed to doing 00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:22.779 the IT side. And the sustainability portion of 00:05:22.779 --> 00:05:25.680 it, we didn't have the term circular economy 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:27.800 coined at the time, we were calling it a sustainable 00:05:27.800 --> 00:05:32.779 business, which is what it is. But But there's 00:05:32.779 --> 00:05:35.040 a tangible business case to be made for this, 00:05:35.180 --> 00:05:37.819 like a for -profit, independent business case 00:05:37.819 --> 00:05:40.259 to be made for it. So it was one by one. And 00:05:40.259 --> 00:05:42.819 then we started focusing on schools. It was early 00:05:42.819 --> 00:05:44.620 days when one -to -one programs, what they were 00:05:44.620 --> 00:05:46.319 called at the time. So like where there's one 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:48.160 laptop for every student. Now it's obviously 00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:51.100 common, but we started seeing an influx of devices 00:05:51.100 --> 00:05:53.240 flowing into them and they didn't really know 00:05:53.240 --> 00:05:55.360 as much about like the data secured end of life, 00:05:55.480 --> 00:05:57.959 student data sitting there. So that was a value. 00:05:58.060 --> 00:06:00.060 Hey, we're going to destroy the data on this. 00:06:00.379 --> 00:06:03.319 but also it was a nice revenue stream back to 00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:06.519 them. So we started off by paying schools for 00:06:06.519 --> 00:06:09.199 their old electronics for anything that we could 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:11.360 refurbish and anything we couldn't be recycled 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:14.399 responsibly. So we started pitching some school 00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:18.360 districts on that and it had legs. We've infused 00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:20.300 millions of dollars now back into school budgets 00:06:20.300 --> 00:06:23.620 every year. From there we moved out of the basement 00:06:23.620 --> 00:06:27.660 to I brought on Angel Investment Capital, which 00:06:27.660 --> 00:06:31.060 we moved to a fancy garage and then then a mushroom 00:06:31.060 --> 00:06:34.399 house, and then eventually we scale up to warehouse, 00:06:34.699 --> 00:06:36.560 then eventually settle to where we are today, 00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:40.379 which is a much more dedicated facility in West 00:06:40.379 --> 00:06:48.759 Grove. But basically, we collect things. It's 00:06:48.759 --> 00:06:51.060 anything that plugs into a wall. It goes through 00:06:51.060 --> 00:06:53.459 a process where it's sorted on site. Data -bearing 00:06:53.459 --> 00:06:56.569 devices are brought out. and sorted out for testing 00:06:56.569 --> 00:06:59.629 and data destruction. Everything is evaluated 00:06:59.629 --> 00:07:02.970 for reuse, depending what the device is. And 00:07:02.970 --> 00:07:05.310 again, sometimes older devices like your iPod, 00:07:06.110 --> 00:07:08.649 that despite being 15 or 20 years old, actually 00:07:08.649 --> 00:07:11.029 might have some value if we can put a new battery 00:07:11.029 --> 00:07:12.870 in it or something. Everything is evaluated. 00:07:13.310 --> 00:07:15.209 So we go through a whole inventory process. And 00:07:15.209 --> 00:07:18.350 then anything that is true e -waste is sorted 00:07:18.350 --> 00:07:23.420 into a variety of categories. for recycling and 00:07:23.420 --> 00:07:25.819 anything that is able to be refurbished. We run 00:07:25.819 --> 00:07:28.759 through, we have about 18 processing technicians 00:07:28.759 --> 00:07:30.980 that are experts in this. We have software driving 00:07:30.980 --> 00:07:34.019 it, the decisions, QR codes that are scanned 00:07:34.019 --> 00:07:37.079 to help teach people how to route things. And 00:07:37.079 --> 00:07:40.040 ultimately those wind up in resale stream. So 00:07:40.040 --> 00:07:43.819 it might be 50 % online retail. There's domestic 00:07:43.819 --> 00:07:46.339 retailers. We have international distributors

00:07:46.339 --> 00:07:50.470 in Europe and in Southeast Asia. where they sell 00:07:50.470 --> 00:07:53.230 it back to consumers again. And ultimately, everything 00:07:53.230 --> 00:07:57.209 that is complete e -waste is routed into material 00:07:57.209 --> 00:07:58.670 streams where it's not going to be landfilled. 00:07:59.410 --> 00:08:01.449 In the Commonwealth, it's technically illegal 00:08:01.449 --> 00:08:04.509 to landfill electronics, like consumer electronics. 00:08:04.889 --> 00:08:07.949 So there's the legal side of it. But landfills 00:08:07.949 --> 00:08:09.730 aren't necessarily designed or equipped to handle 00:08:09.730 --> 00:08:11.949 all the heavy metals. There's concerns about 00:08:11.949 --> 00:08:14.990 lithium ion battery fires, which is a major concern 00:08:14.990 --> 00:08:19.430 for for commercial municipal waste collections. 00:08:19.889 --> 00:08:22.750 When you see those videos of a trash truck driving 00:08:22.750 --> 00:08:25.910 down Fifth Avenue in New York on fire, it's like, 00:08:26.110 --> 00:08:27.990 that's kind of disturbing. But there are thermal 00:08:27.990 --> 00:08:30.569 events that happen. There are real challenges 00:08:30.569 --> 00:08:36.309 to running trash compactors. It's also relatively 00:08:36.309 --> 00:08:39.190 refined metals. So if we can get them into the 00:08:39.190 --> 00:08:42.070 right material streams, it's far more efficient 00:08:42.070 --> 00:08:45.940 from an environmental... perspective to refine 00:08:45.940 --> 00:08:49.419 electronic waste streams than it is to mine virgin 00:08:49.419 --> 00:08:52.200 soil, mountaintop removals, straight up processing 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:56.039 X number of tons of ore to collect, you know, 00:08:56.100 --> 00:08:58.179 refined metals. It's relatively refined. So I 00:08:58.179 --> 00:09:00.340 think the concept of urban mining is the one 00:09:00.340 --> 00:09:02.360 that's starting to be refloated around more recently. 00:09:02.740 --> 00:09:05.620 We're looking at the raw materials in urban settings 00:09:05.620 --> 00:09:08.730 and suburban settings and looking at them for 00:09:08.730 --> 00:09:11.389 mining really raw materials as feedstock into 00:09:11.389 --> 00:09:14.470 refining processes to distill things down into, 00:09:14.470 --> 00:09:16.809 you know, aluminum, copper, you know, really 00:09:16.809 --> 00:09:19.570 base metals again, lithium, you know, different 00:09:19.570 --> 00:09:22.490 polymers for plastics. I mean, repolymerizing 00:09:22.490 --> 00:09:25.169 plastics presents its own challenges, but it's 00:09:25.169 --> 00:09:30.710 better than dumping them in Malaysia. But one 00:09:30.710 --> 00:09:32.730 of the challenges is a lot of consumers don't 00:09:32.730 --> 00:09:36.639 really have easy access to where you can. recycle 00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:38.399 conveniently. So everyone's got these drawers 00:09:38.399 --> 00:09:42.100 full of electronics at your home, but you know 00:09:42.100 --> 00:09:43.679 there are also a bunch of old batteries in there 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:45.960 that might be expanding so it might not necessarily 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:49.639 be the safest thing. So there's definitely a 00:09:49.639 --> 00:09:52.620 challenge. Our core focus is really on accumulating 00:09:52.620 --> 00:09:55.080 large volumes or establishing collection sites 00:09:55.080 --> 00:09:58.220 where we can accumulate things in bulk because 00:09:58.220 --> 00:10:00.879 it's more efficient to deploy track to sites 00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:02.799 where it's concentrated. So we handle the consumer 00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:04.740 electronics program for the state of Delaware. 00:10:06.250 --> 00:10:08.210 We're working on some things in Pennsylvania. 00:10:08.669 --> 00:10:10.669 We're excited about some of the policy changes 00:10:10.669 --> 00:10:13.389 that might be coming through the Pennsylvania 00:10:13.389 --> 00:10:16.169 Senate and House and from the governor's desk 00:10:16.169 --> 00:10:18.309 at some point, too. But there's a market -driven 00:10:18.309 --> 00:10:20.450 approach to make this happen, though there could 00:10:20.450 --> 00:10:24.690 be some updates to some of our legislation and 00:10:24.690 --> 00:10:26.730 laws around it, I think, that could help boost 00:10:26.730 --> 00:10:30.250 it, too. We need more collection sites. There 00:10:30.250 --> 00:10:32.870 are other states that handle it a little bit 00:10:32.870 --> 00:10:34.409 differently than Pennsylvania that are more like 00:10:34.409 --> 00:10:38.340 a consumer -friendly collection events. It does 00:10:38.340 --> 00:10:40.659 matter. We do want to actually recycle these 00:10:40.659 --> 00:10:45.120 things. There's stats that are like only 15 percent 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:47.360 of electronic waste is actually collected. There's 00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:49.220 a huge amount that are sitting in people's desks 00:10:49.220 --> 00:10:52.960 and homes right now. They question mark what's 00:10:52.960 --> 00:10:56.100 actually out there. Typically, we're able to 00:10:56.100 --> 00:10:58.960 pay for assets. We have free consumer collections, 00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:04.389 so consumers are not charged to do this. We make 00:11:04.389 --> 00:11:06.690 our profit. I mean, 80 % of our revenue is from 00:11:06.690 --> 00:11:10.149 the refurbishment and resale. About 10 % is from 00:11:10.149 --> 00:11:13.090 recycling, about 10 % services. So the bulk of 00:11:13.090 --> 00:11:17.769 it is true reuse and refurb. There's also a great 00:11:17.769 --> 00:11:19.789 opportunity just to make sure materials are captured 00:11:19.789 --> 00:11:23.210 from, you know, particularly critical minerals 00:11:23.210 --> 00:11:26.070 that are becoming more concerning from the state 00:11:26.070 --> 00:11:28.990 and the federal level, like lithium, for example. 00:11:29.769 --> 00:11:32.769 A lot of people think lithium might not be recyclable 00:11:32.769 --> 00:11:35.269 or is

volatile, but you can recycle lithium 20 00:11:35.269 --> 00:11:38.230 times before it's completely depleted. And if 00:11:38.230 --> 00:11:41.950 a battery lasts 10 years, that's a long time. 00:11:47.389 --> 00:11:49.110 There's exciting opportunities in Pennsylvania. 00:11:49.450 --> 00:11:53.090 There's bipartisan interest in protecting data 00:11:53.090 --> 00:11:56.370 that's on devices and consumer devices, making 00:11:56.370 --> 00:11:57.990 sure everyone doesn't have their drawers full 00:11:57.990 --> 00:12:00.600 of all of these electronics that just sit there 00:12:00.600 --> 00:12:03.679 for years and years and years. So the existing 00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:06.259 legislation doesn't cover some of those devices. 00:12:06.700 --> 00:12:09.179 So there used to be something expanded to cover 00:12:09.179 --> 00:12:13.139 more modern electronics. And then there are some 00:12:13.139 --> 00:12:14.480 things that were kind of missed, I think, in 00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:19.120 the original bill that passed back in 2010. But 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:20.480 technology has changed that. There was a lot 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:22.679 of CRTs. That was the binge focus of the program. 00:12:22.899 --> 00:12:25.639 You're not allowed to throw CRT TVs legally into 00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:28.350 the landfills. Cathode ray tube is what it stands 00:12:28.350 --> 00:12:31.309 for. So the old big boxy TVs people had those 00:12:31.309 --> 00:12:35.090 giant ones that are weighed 150 pounds. So that 00:12:35.090 --> 00:12:37.570 was the major issue because that is leaded glass. 00:12:37.690 --> 00:12:39.809 So you can't just crush it up. And then there's 00:12:39.809 --> 00:12:43.409 also mercury gas in it. So if you pop it, it's 00:12:43.470 --> 00:12:45.590 it explodes and that's just bad to get into the 00:12:45.590 --> 00:12:48.029 atmosphere. But an interesting thing, and I don't 00:12:48.029 --> 00:12:51.730 mean to completely segue, but some of the CRT 00:12:51.730 --> 00:12:54.409 processors and ultimate downstreams for them 00:12:54.409 --> 00:12:57.129 are going to be the ones, some of the facilities 00:12:57.129 --> 00:12:59.509 are converting processes to handle solar panel 00:12:59.509 --> 00:13:02.490 glass. So it's like kind of an interesting, I 00:13:02.490 --> 00:13:05.090 mean, it's still early for solar panel recycling. 00:13:05.230 --> 00:13:08.070 I think it's very early days, but some of those 00:13:08.070 --> 00:13:10.450 facilities will ultimately be the one full process. 00:13:10.730 --> 00:13:15.070 some of the PV glass. So each solar panel has 00:13:15.070 --> 00:13:18.370 trace elements of silver. It has copper in the 00:13:18.370 --> 00:13:20.590 junction box. There's plastics, there's different 00:13:20.590 --> 00:13:24.409 polymers. The glass is typically kind of a heavy 00:13:24.409 --> 00:13:29.129 irony glass, so there's iron in it. But the hardest 00:13:29.129 --> 00:13:31.330 part of separating them is that it's all kind 00:13:31.330 --> 00:13:33.870 of glued together. So you have to dig through 00:13:33.870 --> 00:13:36.659 the front of the panel. It could be kind of a 00:13:36.659 --> 00:13:39.720 nasty process depending how the structure and 00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:42.620 how the panel was built. There's not a single 00:13:42.620 --> 00:13:44.740 standard. So like there's different thicknesses 00:13:44.740 --> 00:13:47.440 and gauges of glass from each manufacturer it 00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:49.200 changes. So even if you're going to try to set 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:51.120 up a shearer to shear off the glass off the top, 00:13:51.460 --> 00:13:53.039 you're constantly going to be calibrating it. 00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:55.480 If every panel is different, it would be really 00:13:55.480 --> 00:13:57.940 great to have a standard. I guess I know there's 00:13:57.940 --> 00:14:00.200 been talk about it and some of the bifacial panels 00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:03.419 that are more contemporary are more recyclable. 00:14:03.740 --> 00:14:06.100 They don't really think about recyclability when 00:14:06.100 --> 00:14:09.779 they made these things. It's still early for 00:14:09.779 --> 00:14:12.500 solar panel recycling. I think it's very early 00:14:12.500 --> 00:14:17.720 days, but a lot of the warranties are for 20 00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:20.980 years plus. I mean, I think the original solar 00:14:20.980 --> 00:14:23.419 panels that have been produced are still producing 00:14:23.419 --> 00:14:27.820 voltage. We kind of look at it the same way that 00:14:27.820 --> 00:14:31.360 we look at testing batteries. So if when we're 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:33.950 testing a solar panel, and it's still producing 00:14:33.950 --> 00:14:37.009 80 % of the rated power of the nameplate on the 00:14:37.009 --> 00:14:39.690 back of the panel, it still will be considered 00:14:39.690 --> 00:14:43.009 usable. One of the reasons we see people doing 00:14:43.009 --> 00:14:47.250 solar panel recycling now is that the price of 00:14:47.250 --> 00:14:50.809 a solar panel has come down anywhere from 4 to 00:14:50.809 --> 00:14:55.149 6x over the last 15 years, but they might be 00:14:55.149 --> 00:14:57.509 twice as efficient by the same surface area. 00:14:57.950 --> 00:15:00.409 So if the two -dimensional plane is twice as 00:15:00.409 --> 00:15:03.070 efficient and it's you know, five times cheaper, 00:15:03.389 --> 00:15:06.830 it makes sense to free upgraded panels just because 00:15:06.830 --> 00:15:08.789 you can put, you know, brand new ones on there. 00:15:10.970 --> 00:15:14.029 It's to be seen what will happen where the market 00:15:14.029 --> 00:15:17.029 goes once this one big beautiful bill kind of 00:15:17.029 --> 00:15:19.289 plays through, and we're just observing it. I'm 00:15:19.289 --> 00:15:22.090 not really sure yet, but there's still a very 00:15:22.090 --> 00:15:24.490 compelling case of putting up solar. It pays 00:15:24.490 --> 00:15:26.610 for itself. There's people who

say end of life, 00:15:26.610 --> 00:15:29.129 it consumes more energy to recycle it than it 00:15:29.129 --> 00:15:31.129 actually produced in its whole life. That is 00:15:31.179 --> 00:15:34.139 that is false. There's people that say it costs 00:15:34.139 --> 00:15:36.919 more energy to actually make than it, you know, 00:15:37.240 --> 00:15:39.340 than it will ever produce. And regardless of 00:15:39.340 --> 00:15:41.799 the recycling, that's all wrong. This information 00:15:41.799 --> 00:15:43.200 is something that we're always going to be fighting 00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:45.500 in this industry. And definitely when it comes 00:15:45.500 --> 00:15:47.940 to solar panel recycling, there is inherent value. 00:15:48.379 --> 00:15:50.879 There's a robust secondary market for tested 00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:53.519 panels that are truly tested. So we can certify 00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:55.279 that it works and we stand behind it with our 00:15:55.279 --> 00:16:02.460 customers. We're completely solar powered. We're 00:16:02.460 --> 00:16:04.340 wiping hundreds to thousands of hard drives. 00:16:04.500 --> 00:16:08.019 So when the power goes out, we lose all of those 00:16:08.019 --> 00:16:10.120 hard drives being wiped. So we have to start 00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:11.620 the entire process again. That's a whole day 00:16:11.620 --> 00:16:14.220 of production because we have to ensure that 00:16:14.220 --> 00:16:16.399 data is destroyed. It's like the most, the largest 00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:20.139 liability we maintain is the data, well, cybersecurity 00:16:20.139 --> 00:16:25.440 coverage for our company. The power does go out 00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:28.620 here five to seven times a year. That was really 00:16:28.620 --> 00:16:30.860 expensive to lose a day of production. We just 00:16:30.860 --> 00:16:33.740 need to have reliable power all the time. I didn't 00:16:33.740 --> 00:16:36.700 want to have a generator as a backup to run off 00:16:36.700 --> 00:16:38.539 of, okay, why don't we just put a giant battery 00:16:38.539 --> 00:16:41.779 for the whole facility, but couple it with on 00:16:41.779 --> 00:16:46.620 -site solar generation. I like being completely 00:16:46.620 --> 00:16:50.100 net zero as far as energy use goes. And we're 00:16:50.100 --> 00:16:52.940 net zero waste. We're not landfilling things 00:16:52.940 --> 00:16:55.100 that come through the facility for processing. 00:16:56.600 --> 00:16:58.559 there's kind of a it's a cool business case we're 00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:00.820 a for -profit business we're not doing this out 00:17:00.820 --> 00:17:03.320 of grants but it's this is just makes sense from 00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:05.539 a circular economy perspective when you think 00:17:05.539 --> 00:17:07.519 about like you know all cycles carbon cycles 00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:10.319 water cycles it's like everything should be really 00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:14.940 a truly closed loop for better or worse just 00:17:14.940 --> 00:17:16.640 because the industry is growing there's good 00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:19.839 and bad operators in it So I think it'd be good 00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:22.160 for consumers to become more educated, which 00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:24.099 is in the industry. We need to do a better job 00:17:24.099 --> 00:17:27.359 of this to innate like providing tools so consumers 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:29.799 know where they can drop it safely. Because just 00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:31.740 because someone says they're electronics recycling 00:17:31.740 --> 00:17:34.240 doesn't mean they're doing it the right way. 00:17:34.539 --> 00:17:37.880 Again, like there's electronics recyclers that 00:17:37.880 --> 00:17:42.559 that operate. I know of one in New Jersey that 00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:44.700 basically stuff things into shipping containers 00:17:44.700 --> 00:17:48.650 and they ship it to the developing world to be 00:17:48.650 --> 00:17:51.569 processed in ways that aren't certified the way 00:17:51.569 --> 00:17:54.670 we do it. The certified facilities that are R2V3 00:17:54.670 --> 00:17:57.630 certified or East Stewart certified in the US. 00:17:58.170 --> 00:18:00.609 It doesn't matter how you do it. It's better 00:18:00.609 --> 00:18:05.130 to not burn wires to collect the copper. Let's 00:18:05.130 --> 00:18:06.750 not pour gasoline on them and just light them 00:18:06.750 --> 00:18:09.369 on fire. There's ways to do it. An industrial 00:18:09.369 --> 00:18:11.049 process that's efficient and environmentally 00:18:11.049 --> 00:18:14.109 friendly and we don't need to externalize our 00:18:14.109 --> 00:18:17.750 environmental costs for to run a profitable business 00:18:17.750 --> 00:18:19.930 in any way but particularly in this industry 00:18:19.930 --> 00:18:22.890 it's like you can do it the right way and the 00:18:22.890 --> 00:18:26.829 right way is with having consumers or large companies 00:18:26.829 --> 00:18:29.609 or school systems know that hey if these guys 00:18:29.609 --> 00:18:32.269 are too certified if they're e -stuart certified 00:18:32.269 --> 00:18:35.490 there's a lot of due diligence that went into 00:18:35.490 --> 00:18:38.549 that to make sure that they care where the materials 00:18:38.549 --> 00:18:44.349 go and how they operate. The idea is to really 00:18:44.349 --> 00:18:47.279 embrace the circular economy. and circular materials 00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:54.559 and like think about how we're doing it. We think 00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:57.160 when the legislation gets updated in Pennsylvania, 00:18:57.579 --> 00:18:59.180 there will be more collection sites and there's 00:18:59.180 --> 00:19:00.779 going to be more opportunities for us to service 00:19:00.779 --> 00:19:03.039 those in Philly. There's going to be opportunities 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:04.619 for companies that are in the city right now 00:19:04.619 --> 00:19:06.799 like one of the most costly portions of this 00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:08.700 industry are the logistics. You're

running these 00:19:08.700 --> 00:19:11.970 big trucks through It's hard to collect three 00:19:11.970 --> 00:19:13.750 iPhones from a consumer. You want to collect 00:19:13.750 --> 00:19:16.589 a few hundred or a few thousand at a time or, 00:19:16.589 --> 00:19:19.430 you know, a few thousand pounds. So there's going 00:19:19.430 --> 00:19:21.309 to be an opportunity for smaller companies to 00:19:21.309 --> 00:19:23.950 start up and fill that gap, I think. Emptying 00:19:23.950 --> 00:19:28.029 out your drawers is a good thing. But releasing 00:19:28.029 --> 00:19:30.250 the devices prior to doing that would be a big 00:19:30.250 --> 00:19:34.009 help so they can be reused again. The big thing 00:19:34.009 --> 00:19:37.589 that helps is if your device, if you can, you 00:19:37.589 --> 00:19:39.950 know, people have iCloud locks or different like 00:19:40.119 --> 00:19:43.180 You know, Samsung and Google devices have different 00:19:43.180 --> 00:19:45.799 software locks in the devices. If you can wipe 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:47.859 it before you give it the thing away and release 00:19:47.859 --> 00:19:49.779 it from that, that will make sure that it can 00:19:49.779 --> 00:19:52.359 be reused again. If it's, if it's software locked. 00:19:52.819 --> 00:19:56.319 So, you know, find my iPhone or, you know, one 00:19:56.319 --> 00:19:59.279 of those activation locks we call them. If it's 00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:00.940 still in there, you can't use it again. You can 00:20:00.940 --> 00:20:03.319 harvest some parts off of it, but you can't actually 00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:05.380 reuse the device again and sell it to someone 00:20:05.380 --> 00:20:11.789 else. What are some things that could make e 00:20:11.789 --> 00:20:14.670 -recycling easier? Honestly, I think if there's 00:20:14.670 --> 00:20:18.809 more standardization for just for standards on 00:20:18.809 --> 00:20:21.769 how batteries are put into devices to make them 00:20:21.769 --> 00:20:24.309 removable would go a really, really long way. 00:20:24.329 --> 00:20:26.710 If you're gluing batteries into something, you 00:20:26.710 --> 00:20:29.450 have to unglue them at the end of it. It's so 00:20:29.450 --> 00:20:33.549 tedious. So if there's more standardization into 00:20:33.549 --> 00:20:35.549 that, I mean, I think, honestly, it's a good 00:20:35.549 --> 00:20:38.440 idea to have all of the same power cables. We 00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:41.140 have so many different types of adapters. I mean, 00:20:41.140 --> 00:20:44.279 it was just out there. We've got to have 20 ,000 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:47.500 pounds of adapters and just boxes and boxes of 00:20:47.500 --> 00:20:50.480 these things that are all different form factors. 00:20:50.900 --> 00:20:53.400 Standardizing to USB -C ports is a good idea 00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:57.299 for power. And I think that could also apply 00:20:57.299 --> 00:21:00.059 to batteries, how you install them in devices. 00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:05.079 Again, it'd

be better to stop gluing things together, 00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:09.299 making things removable in a way. This would 00:21:09.299 --> 00:21:15.539 be really helpful. iFixit, they're a great organization. 00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:17.579 They do teardowns of a lot of tech and great 00:21:17.579 --> 00:21:21.660 things from easy to hard as far as recyclability 00:21:21.660 --> 00:21:25.700 goes and repairability goes. Yeah, so I think 00:21:25.700 --> 00:21:28.720 there's talk that way. I mean, the newer iPhones 00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:31.380 are easier to repair because Apple did eventually 00:21:31.380 --> 00:21:35.779 listen. But I think there's a lot of manufacturers 00:21:35.779 --> 00:21:38.259 that aren't doing it that way. when the major 00:21:38.259 --> 00:21:41.039 ones start paying attention to that way and making 00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:45.059 batteries replaceable in particular is a big 00:21:45.059 --> 00:22:05.480 step. That was Steve Figgett at Sycamore International, 00:22:05.579 --> 00:22:07.900 where they specialize in sustainable electronics 00:22:07.900 --> 00:22:10.759 recycling. If you want to learn more about electronics 00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:14.240 and solar panel recycling, go to sycamoreinternational 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:17.839 .com. We heard from Steve about what would make 00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:20.779 electronics repair, refurbishment, and recycling 00:22:20.779 --> 00:22:26.180 easier. And the list isn't complicated. Yeah, 00:22:26.299 --> 00:22:29.319 devices need to be built to open, not glued shut. 00:22:30.009 --> 00:22:32.569 Parts and tools need to be available, not locked 00:22:32.569 --> 00:22:36.069 behind manufacturer contracts. Software shouldn't 00:22:36.069 --> 00:22:38.650 block independent technicians. And consumers 00:22:38.650 --> 00:22:40.990 shouldn't be pushed for buying a new device every 00:22:40.990 --> 00:22:44.150 time a battery swells or a screen cracks. And 00:22:44.150 --> 00:22:47.109 those aren't technical impossibilities. They're 00:22:47.109 --> 00:22:49.769 policy choices. And that's exactly where the 00:22:49.769 --> 00:22:52.430 right to repair movement comes in. And it's the 00:22:52.430 --> 00:22:56.670 world a circular economy depends on. Right to 00:22:56.670 --> 00:22:58.789 Repair is about restoring something most people 00:22:58.789 --> 00:23:01.509 assume they already had, the ability to fix the 00:23:01.509 --> 00:23:04.509 things they own. It asks one simple question. 00:23:04.890 --> 00:23:07.410 If you bought it, shouldn't you be able to repair 00:23:07.410 --> 00:23:10.910 it? Luckily, we know someone that can break down 00:23:10.910 --> 00:23:13.410 just that question, Aaron Perzanowski at the 00:23:13.410 --> 00:23:16.029 University of Michigan. He literally wrote the 00:23:16.029 --> 00:23:18.430 book on the right to repair. Aaron is one of 00:23:18.430 --> 00:23:20.569 the country's leading scholars on the right to 00:23:20.569 --> 00:23:22.549 repair, and he's going to take us through how 00:23:22.549 --> 00:23:28.720 we got here. My name is Aaron Perzanowski and 00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:30.859 I'm a professor of law at the University of Michigan 00:23:30.859 --> 00:23:34.819 Law School. The book I wrote a few years ago 00:23:34.819 --> 00:23:37.160 is called The Right to Repair Reclaiming the 00:23:37.160 --> 00:23:41.859 Things We Own. This was a project that started 00:23:41.859 --> 00:23:45.819 for me sort of during the pandemic when I was 00:23:45.819 --> 00:23:48.799 teaching remotely and spending a lot of time 00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:53.180 alone at home and it was a great chance to write 00:23:53.180 --> 00:23:55.759 a book in a relatively short period of time. 00:23:59.559 --> 00:24:03.839 And it's trying to give an accessible viewpoint 00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:08.660 into this complicated issue. So it's not written 00:24:08.660 --> 00:24:12.160 for people who are legal experts. It's not written 00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:16.420 for people who are repair experts. My goal is 00:24:16.420 --> 00:24:19.099 to kind of guide people through this constellation 00:24:19.099 --> 00:24:22.920 of issues by understanding kind of the historical 00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:25.839 perspective of repair, understanding the legal 00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:30.019 rules that interfere with repair. and also the 00:24:30.019 --> 00:24:32.319 legal rules that I think give us some leverage 00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:38.299 to push back on these issues. So I think at its 00:24:38.299 --> 00:24:42.480 core, the right to repair is about giving consumers 00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:45.380 control over the things that they buy, right? 00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:50.380 We all rely heavily on a whole range of devices 00:24:50.380 --> 00:24:53.180 every day, right? We're glued to our smartphones. 00:24:53.549 --> 00:24:56.490 We're using laptops for work. We're driving around 00:24:56.490 --> 00:24:59.069 in cars that are essentially computers on wheels. 00:24:59.809 --> 00:25:02.369 Our home appliances are connected to the internet 00:25:02.369 --> 00:25:05.789 for reasons that don't always make sense. But 00:25:05.789 --> 00:25:09.930 because we're in such a sort of pervasive technological 00:25:09.930 --> 00:25:13.089 environment, I think it's really crucial that 00:25:13.089 --> 00:25:16.230 people are able to control their interactions 00:25:16.230 --> 00:25:19.170 with those devices. And a big part of that is 00:25:19.170 --> 00:25:21.650 just being able to fix them when they break. 00:25:21.910 --> 00:25:24.980 So I think that's kind of at its core, what the 00:25:24.980 --> 00:25:28.500 right to repair is about. In implementation, 00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:31.500 it's meant a lot of different things. There are 00:25:31.500 --> 00:25:34.660 lots of different problems to solve, like the 00:25:34.660 --> 00:25:39.880 repair landscape is, I think, a complicated one 00:25:39.880 --> 00:25:42.920 that has a lot of legal hurdles. And so the right 00:25:42.920

--> 00:25:47.299 to repair has movement has taken a number of 00:25:47.299 --> 00:25:49.380 different strategies to try to address those 00:25:49.380 --> 00:25:56.109 issues. So companies have been interested in 00:25:56.109 --> 00:25:58.470 planned obsolescence for a long time now. This 00:25:58.470 --> 00:26:00.670 really took off in the kind of post -World War 00:26:00.670 --> 00:26:06.029 II economy when our ability to quickly assemble 00:26:06.029 --> 00:26:09.349 products was sort of outpacing consumer demand 00:26:09.349 --> 00:26:11.410 for products. And so if you're making more than 00:26:11.410 --> 00:26:14.049 people are buying, you need stuff to break so 00:26:14.049 --> 00:26:16.069 that people will go out and spend more money. 00:26:16.750 --> 00:26:19.839 And so sometimes that's a matter of using cheap 00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:22.960 materials. Sometimes that's a matter of making 00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:25.019 sure that replacement parts aren't available 00:26:25.019 --> 00:26:27.240 in the market. So if one component goes bad, 00:26:27.539 --> 00:26:29.660 you have little choice but to go out and buy 00:26:29.660 --> 00:26:33.720 a new one. So that's nothing new, really. What 00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:36.640 has changed a lot in the last couple of decades 00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:40.480 is a couple of things. One, we see more and more 00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:45.420 software embedded in our devices. So functionality 00:26:45.420 --> 00:26:49.519 that used to be the byproduct of physical components 00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:53.480 is now being executed through electronics that's 00:26:53.480 --> 00:26:58.279 controlled by software and software gives um 00:26:58.279 --> 00:27:00.819 manufacturers I think a much more granular level 00:27:00.819 --> 00:27:05.019 of control over how long the product works right 00:27:05.019 --> 00:27:08.279 so a good example of this is there are some home 00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:11.960 printers in the market that are literally programmed 00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:14.980 to stop functioning after they print a set number 00:27:14.980 --> 00:27:18.880 of pages. And the excuse from the printer manufacturer 00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:21.440 is, well, we've got this little sponge in the 00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:24.200 bottom of your printer to soak up excess ink, 00:27:24.319 --> 00:27:27.640 and we estimate that after X number of pages 00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:29.839 printed, that sponge is going to be saturated. 00:27:30.019 --> 00:27:32.819 And so for your safety, we disable your printer, 00:27:32.900 --> 00:27:34.900 right? Now, of course, you can go out and buy 00:27:34.900 --> 00:27:36.960 this sponge for like $1 .50, but they don't tell 00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:39.539 you that, right? So software lets you do that 00:27:39.539 --> 00:27:41.400 sort of thing in a way that was really unthinkable 00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:45.140 before. Software also ties into the other... 00:27:44.910 --> 00:27:47.950 new development here, which is the use of the 00:27:47.950 --> 00:27:52.049 law to interfere with repair. So copyright law 00:27:52.049 --> 00:27:55.809 applies to software and that means not only do 00:27:55.809 --> 00:27:58.410 companies have this sort of practical level of 00:27:58.410 --> 00:28:03.750 control, they can also use legal threats to deny 00:28:03.750 --> 00:28:06.769 consumers access to the software that they need 00:28:06.769 --> 00:28:15.700 to fix the products that they buy. So I think 00:28:15.700 --> 00:28:18.319 in a lot of ways, the pushback started in the 00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:28.039 automotive space. Because of the expensive vehicles, 00:28:28.380 --> 00:28:30.500 repair is a really important consideration when 00:28:30.500 --> 00:28:33.299 people are making a decision about what cars 00:28:33.299 --> 00:28:36.839 they're going to buy. And because repairs are 00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:39.920 expensive, people are more sensitive to repair 00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:44.759 restrictions. 20 years or so ago, when we started 00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:49.420 to see the real explosion of sort of electronics 00:28:49.420 --> 00:28:52.700 and software code in vehicles, there started 00:28:52.700 --> 00:28:55.880 to be a real concern that manufacturers could 00:28:55.880 --> 00:28:58.779 take steps that would make it difficult, if not 00:28:58.779 --> 00:29:01.319 impossible for independent repair shops to keep 00:29:01.319 --> 00:29:04.599 working on cars. And so we still see this to 00:29:04.599 --> 00:29:07.619 some extent now, right? So if you have like a 00:29:07.619 --> 00:29:10.480 crack in your windshield, you can't just go anywhere. 00:29:11.629 --> 00:29:14.430 car dealer would tell you to get that windshield 00:29:14.430 --> 00:29:17.869 repaired because there's all these sensors at 00:29:17.869 --> 00:29:19.869 the front of your car that have to be calibrated 00:29:19.869 --> 00:29:21.789 and you need access to software and it turns 00:29:21.789 --> 00:29:24.390 out that makes it a whole lot more expensive 00:29:24.390 --> 00:29:29.230 to fix that windshield. The worry was every component 00:29:29.230 --> 00:29:31.289 on a car was going to function that way, right? 00:29:31.289 --> 00:29:35.450 If you want to switch out a broken tail light, 00:29:35.609 --> 00:29:37.809 you're going to have to... connect to a computer 00:29:37.809 --> 00:29:44.349 and have that part authenticated. And so Massachusetts 00:29:44.349 --> 00:29:48.170 was an early leader in this space and passed 00:29:48.170 --> 00:29:52.210 an automotive right to repair law that became 00:29:52.210 --> 00:29:54.210 a kind of informal model for the rest of the 00:29:54.210 --> 00:29:57.170 United States, all of the manufacturers and part. 00:29:57.259 --> 00:30:00.500 suppliers basically all agreed to treat that 00:30:00.500 --> 00:30:03.099 law as if it were the law across the entire U 00:30:03.099 --> 00:30:06.119 .S. And so that solved the problem in the automotive 00:30:06.119 -->

00:30:11.359 space for a few years until wireless telematic 00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:13.579 systems get introduced and that complicates things. 00:30:13.880 --> 00:30:16.920 But we also saw all these same strategies to 00:30:16.920 --> 00:30:20.519 control repair markets. popping up in other spaces, 00:30:20.740 --> 00:30:23.380 right? So, you know, Apple made it really difficult 00:30:23.380 --> 00:30:27.019 for a long time to have anyone other than Apple 00:30:27.019 --> 00:30:30.039 fix your phone. You know, John Deere, as I said, 00:30:30.380 --> 00:30:32.900 pulls the same strategy, showed a lots of companies. 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:35.339 I mean, these are the ones that I think are in 00:30:35.339 --> 00:30:39.380 the headlines most often, but this is not a problem 00:30:39.380 --> 00:30:41.519 that's isolated to just a handful of companies. 00:30:41.720 --> 00:30:45.369 It's really pervasive across... the electronics 00:30:45.369 --> 00:30:48.109 space to the extent that companies that actually 00:30:48.109 --> 00:30:53.170 do go out of their way to Facilitate and encourage 00:30:53.170 --> 00:30:55.849 consumer repair like they get a lot of attention 00:30:55.849 --> 00:30:59.470 for those policies because they're such outliers 00:30:59.470 --> 00:31:05.369 My first book which I wrote with Jason Schultz 00:31:05.369 --> 00:31:08.829 is called the end of ownership and it's a hundred 00:31:08.829 --> 00:31:12.930 percent focusing on this question of the shift 00:31:12.930 --> 00:31:18.900 from us owning tangible assets, physical copies, 00:31:19.400 --> 00:31:22.539 and moving in a direction towards sort of licensed 00:31:22.539 --> 00:31:25.380 digital access, whether that's through, you know, 00:31:25.420 --> 00:31:27.059 at the time we wrote that book, it was that kind 00:31:27.059 --> 00:31:30.660 of era of the iTunes music store and, you know, 00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:34.180 downloading an album for $9 .99. And since then, 00:31:34.180 --> 00:31:35.680 right, of course, we've kind of transitioned 00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:41.059 into the subscription streaming economy. And 00:31:41.059 --> 00:31:44.380 so I think for me the overarching issue really 00:31:44.380 --> 00:31:48.660 is what does it mean to own something in this 00:31:48.660 --> 00:31:54.819 sort of digitally mediated economy? maybe more 00:31:54.819 --> 00:31:57.119 importantly, what does it mean that we don't 00:31:57.119 --> 00:32:00.299 own anything in this digitally mediated economy, 00:32:00.440 --> 00:32:03.039 right? So I think it puts us all in a pretty 00:32:03.039 --> 00:32:06.220 precarious position. You know, there's a loss 00:32:06.220 --> 00:32:09.880 of autonomy, there's a loss of control over how 00:32:09.880 --> 00:32:13.220 we interact with things, over whether or not 00:32:13.220 --> 00:32:15.900 the things that we purchased. or think that we 00:32:15.900 --> 00:32:18.339 purchased are going to be available tomorrow 00:32:18.339 --> 00:32:21.619 when I wake up,

right? Is Amazon gonna decide 00:32:21.619 --> 00:32:23.339 that, actually, I don't get to keep that book? 00:32:23.720 --> 00:32:26.019 Is Apple gonna decide, oh, actually, we pulled 00:32:26.019 --> 00:32:28.480 that movie from our store, so even though you 00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:32.079 spent $20 on it, too bad for you. You should 00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:34.920 have read the fine print, right? And that all 00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:40.420 feels maybe like a little trivial in the context 00:32:40.420 --> 00:32:44.230 of entertainment content. One of the things that 00:32:44.230 --> 00:32:46.250 I think is really important about the right to 00:32:46.250 --> 00:32:49.849 repair movement is that it shows what happens 00:32:49.849 --> 00:32:53.849 when we import the same legal concepts and we 00:32:53.849 --> 00:32:58.170 import the same sort of dismissal of ownership 00:32:58.170 --> 00:33:01.789 from a purely digital world to the physical world 00:33:01.789 --> 00:33:04.390 that relies on digital technology, right? So 00:33:04.390 --> 00:33:06.369 it's kind of, you know, it's made its way out 00:33:06.369 --> 00:33:11.380 of just like the pure internet. into the physical 00:33:11.380 --> 00:33:14.279 space that we all occupy every day. When we wrote 00:33:14.279 --> 00:33:19.799 that book 10 years ago, I think there were some 00:33:19.799 --> 00:33:24.519 people who took the argument seriously, and I 00:33:24.519 --> 00:33:28.579 think there were some people who... and the stakes 00:33:28.579 --> 00:33:30.880 don't seem particularly high here. And also, 00:33:30.980 --> 00:33:32.799 isn't it really nice and convenient that I can 00:33:32.799 --> 00:33:36.000 pay $10 a month for Netflix and watch all these 00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:38.720 movies? And now 10 years later, you're paying 00:33:38.720 --> 00:33:41.799 $25 a month for Netflix and watching way fewer 00:33:41.799 --> 00:33:44.480 movies. So, you know, I think there's a sense 00:33:44.480 --> 00:33:49.410 in which this puts us... at the mercy of these 00:33:49.410 --> 00:33:53.950 increasingly massive concentrated companies in 00:33:53.950 --> 00:33:58.309 ways that I think we ought to be frankly quite 00:33:58.309 --> 00:34:01.369 frightened about. And I think that's starting 00:34:01.369 --> 00:34:14.860 to sort of sink in for people. Any impediment 00:34:14.860 --> 00:34:18.940 to consumers repairing their device, whether 00:34:18.940 --> 00:34:22.739 that is a function of the physical design of 00:34:22.739 --> 00:34:25.800 the product, the software design of the product, 00:34:25.940 --> 00:34:30.199 or the legal restrictions that companies impose 00:34:30.199 --> 00:34:34.380 on those products, I think those are all vectors 00:34:34.380 --> 00:34:41.880 for this impingement of consumer rights. This 00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:44.579 is an issue that comes up in a lot of contexts, 00:34:44.699 --> 00:34:47.059 right? Companies decide, we don't really want 00:34:47.059 --> 00:34:50.460 to support

this device with new software updates 00:34:50.460 --> 00:34:54.940 anymore. And so we're going to suspend those 00:34:54.940 --> 00:34:57.500 automatic software updates. I wouldn't say it's 00:34:57.500 --> 00:35:00.420 an entirely distinct issue. I think it's a closely 00:35:00.420 --> 00:35:03.739 related problem to the right to repair issues 00:35:03.739 --> 00:35:06.719 that we've been talking about. Sometimes that 00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:08.920 means a device just stops functioning altogether. 00:35:09.079 --> 00:35:12.659 If it's one that depends on access to a remote 00:35:12.659 --> 00:35:16.739 server. So maybe the most famous example of this 00:35:16.739 --> 00:35:20.840 is a device called the Revolve that Nest put 00:35:20.840 --> 00:35:23.380 out maybe, I don't know, this was almost a decade 00:35:23.380 --> 00:35:26.159 ago at this point. And they just announced one 00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:29.019 day, hey, it was a home automation hub, right? 00:35:29.019 --> 00:35:32.719 So you would connect this thing to your thermostat 00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:35.559 and your automatic blinds and your television, 00:35:35.639 --> 00:35:37.820 and it would set the scene for you at various 00:35:37.820 --> 00:35:41.260 times a day. And they just decided one day, we're 00:35:41.260 --> 00:35:43.699 not going to keep this thing working. And on 00:35:43.699 --> 00:35:46.860 X date, it's just going to become a brick. It's 00:35:46.860 --> 00:35:50.219 not going to function at all anymore. Other times, 00:35:50.619 --> 00:35:54.760 like we've had recently with Windows, an announcement 00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:56.639 that, hey, we're not going to support this operating 00:35:56.639 --> 00:36:00.219 system anymore. And so all those devices that 00:36:00.219 --> 00:36:03.199 are relying on this operating system. they're 00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:06.000 just not gonna get software updates, right? And 00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:08.840 if you work in a major corporation or you work 00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:11.860 in a university like I do, you can't run a device 00:36:11.860 --> 00:36:14.440 that's not getting frequent software updates 00:36:14.440 --> 00:36:16.480 because it becomes a security vulnerability. 00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:23.630 So the right to repair. laws that have been enacted 00:36:23.630 --> 00:36:27.769 so far have not directly addressed those issues, 00:36:28.150 --> 00:36:30.170 but I know there's some other model legislation 00:36:30.170 --> 00:36:34.030 out there that does focus on things like providing 00:36:34.030 --> 00:36:38.929 consumers clear notice about the period of time 00:36:38.929 --> 00:36:41.110 during which they should expect software support 00:36:41.110 --> 00:36:44.570 and holding companies accountable for those statements. 00:36:44.989 --> 00:36:48.409 mandating minimum periods of support. And there's 00:36:48.409 --> 00:36:53.369 also, I think, a conversation to be had about 00:36:53.369 --> 00:36:57.789 putting source code in escrow

or requiring companies 00:36:57.789 --> 00:37:02.650 to make code available on open source terms if 00:37:02.650 --> 00:37:04.449 they decide they're not going to support these 00:37:04.449 --> 00:37:07.710 devices anymore so that people can do it themselves. 00:37:09.369 --> 00:37:14.639 So I think that's a big concern as we see you 00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:18.760 know, investments in, you know, like very expensive 00:37:18.760 --> 00:37:21.780 electric vehicles that are entirely dependent 00:37:21.780 --> 00:37:24.960 on software. And so when the company goes bankrupt, 00:37:25.420 --> 00:37:27.860 what happens with the software code that you 00:37:27.860 --> 00:37:31.079 need to keep your car, you know, not only operating, 00:37:31.300 --> 00:37:34.280 but safe on the road for everyone else, right? 00:37:35.219 --> 00:37:37.559 These things can't just be abandoned in the way 00:37:37.559 --> 00:37:42.449 that, you know, like some software tool that 00:37:42.449 --> 00:37:45.610 I used in 1995 gets abandoned, right? There's 00:37:45.610 --> 00:37:55.530 some real consequences that flow from this. So 00:37:55.530 --> 00:37:58.849 in the United States, the legislative efforts 00:37:58.849 --> 00:38:02.389 have largely focused on a kind of state -by -state 00:38:02.389 --> 00:38:05.949 campaign. There are important issues that need 00:38:05.949 --> 00:38:09.920 to be addressed by Congress. But it's turned 00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:14.900 out that state legislatures are places where 00:38:14.900 --> 00:38:17.900 more things get done than Washington DC, which 00:38:17.900 --> 00:38:19.960 is probably not a surprise to lots of folks. 00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:23.659 State lawmakers, I think, are kind of... in a 00:38:23.659 --> 00:38:25.860 more direct relationship with their constituents. 00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:28.019 So I think they're a little bit more likely to 00:38:28.019 --> 00:38:31.719 be influenced by people in the community who 00:38:31.719 --> 00:38:34.019 come in and say, hey, it's like way too expensive 00:38:34.019 --> 00:38:37.079 to fix my car, or it's way too expensive to get 00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:39.360 my tractor up and running again. What are you 00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:42.739 going to do about this? And so. We've seen a 00:38:42.739 --> 00:38:45.260 lot of success in the United States so far in 00:38:45.260 --> 00:38:47.719 getting state -level right to repair laws passed. 00:38:48.280 --> 00:38:51.960 Basically what those laws do is that they require 00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:58.019 manufacturers to make parts, software, tools, 00:38:58.500 --> 00:39:01.300 diagnostic information, all of that stuff available 00:39:01.300 --> 00:39:04.880 to consumers and to independent repair providers. 00:39:04.900 --> 00:39:07.440 So that means if you're an ambitious consumer 00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:10.179 and you want to try and fix your tractor yourself, 00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:13.360 go for it. If you want to go to a mom and pop 00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:15.719 shop down the road instead of the John Deere 00:39:15.719 --> 00:39:18.519 dealer 100 miles away, you have the option to 00:39:18.519 --> 00:39:22.300 do that too, so that reduces prices. And I think 00:39:22.300 --> 00:39:24.500 that's been important. It's been effective. At 00:39:24.500 --> 00:39:27.480 this point, I think more than 100 million Americans 00:39:27.480 --> 00:39:30.400 live in states that have passed right to repair 00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:33.199 laws over the last few years. And I think that's 00:39:33.199 --> 00:39:35.940 pretty significant. We've got laws passed in 00:39:35.940 --> 00:39:38.639 California and Texas, which gets you a lot of 00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:43.380 the way to 100 million people. There are other 00:39:43.380 --> 00:39:46.500 things that I think need to be done, but that's 00:39:46.500 --> 00:39:48.880 the progress that's been made so far here in 00:39:48.880 --> 00:39:53.030 the U .S. The state right to repair laws that 00:39:53.030 --> 00:39:58.030 have been passed apply to both physical components 00:39:58.030 --> 00:40:01.849 and software components. So if I need some piece 00:40:01.849 --> 00:40:06.730 of software to diagnose or repair or calibrate 00:40:06.730 --> 00:40:09.730 my device, the manufacturer has to make that 00:40:09.730 --> 00:40:13.570 available to the consumer or to the independent 00:40:13.570 --> 00:40:17.880 repair provider. One of the things that state 00:40:17.880 --> 00:40:22.280 law can't do is change federal copyright law. 00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:25.179 And so there's some changes that I think are 00:40:25.179 --> 00:40:27.559 really important and really necessary that have 00:40:27.559 --> 00:40:31.420 to do with software that really are problems 00:40:31.420 --> 00:40:34.360 that Congress needs to address. So one of those 00:40:34.360 --> 00:40:37.480 is this idea of digital rights management. So 00:40:37.480 --> 00:40:39.739 these are like software locks, right? They're 00:40:39.739 --> 00:40:42.559 little digital locks that keep you out of certain 00:40:42.559 --> 00:40:46.840 components of a device. And federal copyright 00:40:46.840 --> 00:40:50.780 law makes it illegal to remove or bypass those 00:40:50.780 --> 00:40:54.780 digital locks. It also makes it illegal to create 00:40:54.780 --> 00:40:57.440 tools to help other people remove those digital 00:40:57.440 --> 00:41:02.940 locks. And so oftentimes there are technical 00:41:02.940 --> 00:41:07.599 barriers that are kind of backed up with legal 00:41:07.599 --> 00:41:10.420 liability that stop people from even getting 00:41:10.420 --> 00:41:15.980 access to the software that they need to, you 00:41:15.980 --> 00:41:18.920 know, that they need to diagnose a problem with 00:41:18.920 --> 00:41:23.880 their device. I'd like to see some legislation 00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:28.039 in that space because, as I said, that's something 00:41:28.039 --> 00:41:31.599 that the state -level laws aren't really in a

00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:36.260 position to affect. In the legislation that's 00:41:36.260 --> 00:41:41.559 been passed, we've seen some states that are 00:41:41.559 --> 00:41:45.119 happy to take a really broad view and say any 00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:48.019 electronic device is covered by these right to 00:41:48.019 --> 00:41:52.380 repair laws. In other instances, We've seen carve 00:41:52.380 --> 00:41:54.739 -outs for particular industries, right? So in 00:41:54.739 --> 00:41:57.760 states where there might be a really powerful 00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:00.380 agricultural lobby, it's going to be harder to 00:42:00.380 --> 00:42:04.440 get tractors included. Or in some instances, 00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:08.460 there's been pushback to repair for medical devices. 00:42:08.539 --> 00:42:12.170 Now, I'm not persuaded by those arguments. But 00:42:12.170 --> 00:42:15.070 if it's a question of getting a more narrow bill 00:42:15.070 --> 00:42:17.769 passed or getting no bill passed at all, I'll 00:42:17.769 --> 00:42:19.789 take the narrow bill every day, right? I think 00:42:19.789 --> 00:42:23.429 that's a smart trade -off. In part because once 00:42:23.429 --> 00:42:26.469 you prove that the sky isn't going to fall if 00:42:26.469 --> 00:42:29.449 people get to repair their phones and their televisions 00:42:29.449 --> 00:42:32.889 and their refrigerators, then it's easier to 00:42:32.889 --> 00:42:34.510 help people understand that the sky isn't going 00:42:34.510 --> 00:42:37.869 to fall if we let people repair their cars or 00:42:37.869 --> 00:42:41.170 let... trained medical technicians in hospitals 00:42:41.170 --> 00:42:44.289 fix ventilators that aren't working, right? So 00:42:44.289 --> 00:42:47.570 I think the kind of incremental nature of this 00:42:47.570 --> 00:42:51.269 in a lot of ways keeps the momentum going and 00:42:51.269 --> 00:42:53.750 allows advocates to make these arguments even 00:42:53.750 --> 00:42:57.730 more convincingly as time goes on. I do think 00:42:57.730 --> 00:43:02.989 it has had an effect on company policies. Apple, 00:43:03.210 --> 00:43:06.460 I think, is a good example here. Apple... resisted 00:43:06.460 --> 00:43:09.619 right to repair legislation in California for 00:43:09.619 --> 00:43:13.059 years until it became clear to them they were 00:43:13.059 --> 00:43:15.400 going to lose, and that was going to be embarrassing, 00:43:15.739 --> 00:43:17.739 right? And at that point, they said, actually, 00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:20.260 OK, we'll support this legislation. And in fact, 00:43:20.699 --> 00:43:23.980 we're going to create a new program to sell replacement 00:43:23.980 --> 00:43:27.099 parts directly to consumers. That's something 00:43:27.099 --> 00:43:30.289 that Apple never did. for a very long time, their 00:43:30.289 --> 00:43:33.130 policy was very clear. We're not gonna sell you 00:43:33.130 --> 00:43:35.610 a new screen for your iPhone. If you need a screen, 00:43:35.610 --> 00:43:38.610 you come in and you pay us to install it. And 00:43:38.610 --> 00:43:41.289 they moved away from that, partly because of 00:43:41.289 --> 00:43:45.070 legislation, partly, I think, and this is speculation 00:43:45.070 --> 00:43:49.550 on my part, but partly because at the point where 00:43:49.550 --> 00:43:54.440 Lena Con was running the FTC and the Biden, Department 00:43:54.440 --> 00:43:58.019 of Justice was more interested in antitrust enforcement. 00:43:58.019 --> 00:44:01.159 I think they saw, you know, a potential enforcement 00:44:01.159 --> 00:44:04.940 action coming towards them for refusing to make 00:44:04.940 --> 00:44:08.719 these replacement parts available. So we've seen 00:44:08.719 --> 00:44:12.599 companies shift around their repair policies, 00:44:13.000 --> 00:44:15.280 loosening them up. And I think that's for the 00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:20.340 best. I think we've also seen some gestures towards 00:44:21.260 --> 00:44:25.000 designing and manufacturing more repairable products. 00:44:25.199 --> 00:44:28.019 I think Apple deserves some credit there as well. 00:44:28.500 --> 00:44:32.579 I think we could go further. In the United States, 00:44:32.579 --> 00:44:36.780 there's a real reluctance to have regulators 00:44:36.780 --> 00:44:41.480 and lawmakers intervene in the design of products, 00:44:41.559 --> 00:44:43.500 right? We tend to take a pretty hands -off approach 00:44:43.500 --> 00:44:45.739 and say, listen, you know, they're the experts. 00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:48.059 We'll let them decide how to make their products. 00:44:48.099 --> 00:44:50.690 I think generally that makes sense. We don't 00:44:50.690 --> 00:44:52.469 always do that, right? There came a point where 00:44:52.469 --> 00:44:56.690 we required every automaker in this country to 00:44:56.690 --> 00:44:59.929 put seat belts in their cars, right? And yes, 00:45:00.030 --> 00:45:02.389 that interfered with their freedom to design 00:45:02.389 --> 00:45:05.030 the product in the way that they saw fit, but 00:45:05.030 --> 00:45:09.070 it served an important public purpose. We haven't 00:45:09.070 --> 00:45:11.030 done that yet in the electronics space. I think 00:45:11.030 --> 00:45:16.869 Europe is more inclined to be... Sort of interventionist 00:45:16.869 --> 00:45:19.929 in that way. We've seen this a little bit already. 00:45:20.730 --> 00:45:23.889 So Europe has this eco design directive that's 00:45:23.889 --> 00:45:26.730 been around for a few years And one of the things 00:45:26.730 --> 00:45:29.409 that it does is for certain products like home 00:45:29.409 --> 00:45:34.070 appliances right a washing machine a dryer it 00:45:34.760 --> 00:45:37.639 requires that those products be designed in a 00:45:37.639 --> 00:45:40.800 way that they can be disassembled using everyday 00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:44.980 household tools, no special exotic screwdrivers 00:45:44.980 --> 00:45:47.940 needed, and also in a way that you can disassemble 00:45:47.940 -->

00:45:50.519 the device without permanently damaging any of 00:45:50.519 --> 00:45:52.900 the components. Because a lot of devices, right, 00:45:52.960 --> 00:45:54.800 to actually disassemble them, you're going to 00:45:54.800 --> 00:45:58.010 have to do more damage to the product. The U 00:45:58.010 --> 00:46:01.190 .S. hasn't done that. I think we should think 00:46:01.190 --> 00:46:02.869 about it. I think we should take that seriously. 00:46:03.309 --> 00:46:05.489 One thing that the Europeans have been floating 00:46:05.489 --> 00:46:09.809 in the electronics space is a return to the days 00:46:09.809 --> 00:46:12.230 of user replaceable batteries in smartphones. 00:46:13.300 --> 00:46:16.880 So for the, you know, older folks out there, 00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:18.960 right, you might remember having a flip phone 00:46:18.960 --> 00:46:22.340 or, you know, a Motorola Razr where you could 00:46:22.340 --> 00:46:26.340 literally with one thumb pop the cover open on 00:46:26.340 --> 00:46:28.480 the back of that device, pull out the battery, 00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:32.340 and put in a fresh one. It didn't require spending 00:46:32.340 --> 00:46:35.960 hundreds of dollars. It didn't require, you know, 00:46:36.679 --> 00:46:39.000 specialized tools or anything along those lines. 00:46:39.559 --> 00:46:43.150 So... I would like to see some real thought given 00:46:43.150 --> 00:46:48.190 to those kinds of common sense requirements that 00:46:48.190 --> 00:46:51.570 still give companies plenty of room to innovate, 00:46:51.610 --> 00:46:55.969 but they take these consumer concerns and environmental 00:46:55.969 --> 00:46:58.429 concerns a lot more seriously than we do right 00:46:58.429 --> 00:47:06.130 now. The recycling issue I think is important 00:47:06.130 --> 00:47:09.920 and recycling is absolutely better than throwing 00:47:09.920 --> 00:47:13.539 something in a landfill, no doubt about it. But 00:47:13.539 --> 00:47:18.079 I think recycling is often a distant second to 00:47:18.079 --> 00:47:22.019 repair, right? Keeping something working as long 00:47:22.019 --> 00:47:26.940 as we can is a value that I think we've sort 00:47:26.940 --> 00:47:30.099 of lost sight of. Part of planned obsolescence 00:47:30.099 --> 00:47:36.230 is marketing. Why does Apple... decide every 00:47:36.230 --> 00:47:40.210 year that the iPhone needs to come in some new 00:47:40.210 --> 00:47:45.670 set of colors. The same reason that in the 1950s, 00:47:45.670 --> 00:47:48.849 you know, Ford and GM decided that, you know, 00:47:49.530 --> 00:47:51.949 their cars needed to have bigger and bigger fins 00:47:51.949 --> 00:47:54.909 every year, right? So you could signal that you 00:47:54.909 --> 00:47:59.539 have the latest and greatest item. I think that 00:47:59.539 --> 00:48:02.880 drives a lot of consumer sentiment around these 00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:06.219 things. And if we could get back to a point where 00:48:06.219 --> 00:48:11.760 people were actually proud to have a device that's 00:48:11.760 --> 00:48:15.260 durable, rather than a device that simply happens 00:48:15.260 --> 00:48:18.179 to be new, I think that would have a big impact. 00:48:19.179 --> 00:48:22.739 So I think it changes the economy, right? We're 00:48:22.739 --> 00:48:27.090 gonna see a shift in spending from purchasing 00:48:27.090 --> 00:48:30.670 new devices to repairing devices. One thing that 00:48:30.670 --> 00:48:35.329 does is take money out of the coffers of trillion 00:48:35.329 --> 00:48:38.849 -dollar corporations and puts that money in the 00:48:38.849 --> 00:48:41.829 hands of local businesses. It also leaves more 00:48:41.829 --> 00:48:44.250 money in the pockets of the consumer in the first 00:48:44.250 --> 00:48:46.829 place that they can go spend on something else, 00:48:46.949 --> 00:48:48.829 right? So I'm not terribly worried about a kind 00:48:48.829 --> 00:48:54.880 of like macroeconomic collapse because of the 00:48:54.880 --> 00:48:57.900 repair economy. One thing we have to take seriously 00:48:57.900 --> 00:49:02.300 though, and this is not often a popular opinion, 00:49:02.920 --> 00:49:05.840 but we have to take seriously the idea that maybe 00:49:05.840 --> 00:49:10.019 products need to cost more upfront in exchange 00:49:10.019 --> 00:49:13.340 for greater durability. People don't like the 00:49:13.340 --> 00:49:17.449 idea of Increasing costs I get it cars are too 00:49:17.449 --> 00:49:20.670 expensive already phones are too expensive already 00:49:20.670 --> 00:49:24.550 But part of what's happening right now is a kind 00:49:24.550 --> 00:49:28.110 of dishonesty You know, so a company is willing 00:49:28.110 --> 00:49:31.929 to sell you Let's take John Deere for example, 00:49:32.010 --> 00:49:34.550 right John Deere is willing to sell you a tractor 00:49:34.550 --> 00:49:38.409 for let's say $100 ,000 right not a particularly 00:49:38.409 --> 00:49:40.369 expensive tractor, but you know for most of us 00:49:40.369 --> 00:49:43.909 more tractor than we need You're willing to spend 00:49:43.909 --> 00:49:46.449 that money, but what John Deere doesn't tell 00:49:46.449 --> 00:49:49.989 you is that price includes a bunch of predictions 00:49:49.989 --> 00:49:52.309 about how much money you're going to spend down 00:49:52.309 --> 00:49:57.469 the line on repair and service, right? I think 00:49:57.469 --> 00:50:01.849 we might be better off if companies had to be 00:50:01.849 --> 00:50:05.269 upfront about the total cost of ownership of 00:50:05.269 --> 00:50:08.030 these devices. And if part of what they're pricing 00:50:08.030 --> 00:50:11.050 in is the money they're going to take from us 00:50:11.050 --> 00:50:14.530 over the long run, in the 10 or 20 years that 00:50:14.530 --> 00:50:19.130 you own this particular item. That might lead 00:50:19.130 --> 00:50:22.550 to an increase in the initial price, but I think 00:50:22.550 --> 00:50:25.550 in the long run, it actually saves consumers

00:50:25.550 --> 00:50:29.730 money. It requires a shift from that kind of 00:50:29.730 --> 00:50:33.269 sticker price mentality to the sort of total 00:50:33.269 --> 00:50:37.869 cost of ownership mentality. One way you do that 00:50:37.869 --> 00:50:40.010 is that you force companies to be more honest 00:50:40.010 --> 00:50:42.630 about what they really plan on charging you in 00:50:42.630 --> 00:50:46.110 the long run. I think there are absolutely circumstances 00:50:46.110 --> 00:50:50.610 where at least initially for new products, manufacturers... 00:50:50.750 --> 00:50:54.070 might be in a better position to offer repair 00:50:54.070 --> 00:50:56.909 because they have a better understanding of the 00:50:56.909 --> 00:50:59.130 components of the device, how they're put together. 00:50:59.550 --> 00:51:02.530 That's certainly true. But I think one thing 00:51:02.530 --> 00:51:07.190 we see from sites like iFixit that do teardowns 00:51:07.190 --> 00:51:09.710 of new products is that people who are skilled 00:51:09.710 --> 00:51:12.909 in this space can learn pretty quickly those 00:51:12.909 --> 00:51:16.570 ins and outs. There's a lot of sort of distributed 00:51:16.570 --> 00:51:21.070 expertise out there in the world. And I think 00:51:21.070 --> 00:51:23.269 my vision, and the vision that a lot of folks 00:51:23.269 --> 00:51:26.750 in the right to repair space would endorse, is 00:51:26.750 --> 00:51:28.869 one in which, of course, you should be able to 00:51:28.869 --> 00:51:31.510 go to the manufacturer if you want to, right? 00:51:31.530 --> 00:51:34.309 Of course that option should be available. You 00:51:34.309 --> 00:51:37.510 know, if I need to get my car fixed, my first 00:51:37.510 --> 00:51:40.349 stop is probably going to be to call the dealer, 00:51:40.750 --> 00:51:43.269 right? It might not be my only call, but that's 00:51:43.269 --> 00:51:45.590 probably where I'm going to look first. And so 00:51:45.590 --> 00:51:47.889 if we're in a competitive market where lots of 00:51:47.889 --> 00:51:50.349 people can offer these repair services, that's 00:51:50.349 --> 00:51:53.090 going to keep prices low. And that's also going 00:51:53.090 --> 00:51:56.070 to create incentives for high quality responsive 00:51:56.070 --> 00:51:59.869 repair. When you have a monopoly, not only do 00:51:59.869 --> 00:52:02.150 you get to jack up the prices, but you also get 00:52:02.150 --> 00:52:05.989 to provide sort of bad service. I mean, people 00:52:05.989 --> 00:52:09.869 remember subscribing to cable television, I imagine, 00:52:10.030 --> 00:52:14.000 right? That's an example of, you know, in most 00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:16.539 markets, a company that has monopoly power, so 00:52:16.539 --> 00:52:19.480 they charge you through the roof and everyone 00:52:19.480 --> 00:52:22.980 hates them, right? I don't think that's the vision 00:52:22.980 --> 00:52:25.940 we should have for, you know, the markets for 00:52:25.940 --> 00:52:29.559 repairing our daily devices. There's some good 00:52:29.559 --> 00:52:33.099 resources out there. The website for the Repair 00:52:33.099 --> 00:52:36.440 Association, Repair .org, an organization I'm 00:52:36.440 --> 00:52:41.639 on the board of, maintains a pretty active list 00:52:41.639 --> 00:52:44.000 of states where the right to repair has been 00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:47.880 enacted, states where legislation has been introduced. 00:52:48.099 --> 00:52:50.639 And so you can go there and find out if there's 00:52:50.639 --> 00:52:53.639 a bill pending in your state. And if there is, 00:52:53.960 --> 00:52:57.599 there's often opportunity to submit written comments. 00:52:58.030 --> 00:53:01.829 of these bills. There are hearings where, you 00:53:01.829 --> 00:53:04.449 know, I've attended some hearings where, you 00:53:04.449 --> 00:53:07.969 know, testimony from community members I think 00:53:07.969 --> 00:53:12.829 was incredibly influential in changing the viewpoint 00:53:12.829 --> 00:53:16.130 of legislators. So I think those are two very 00:53:16.130 --> 00:53:18.730 concrete ways that you can get involved. The 00:53:18.730 --> 00:53:21.650 other thing that I think is important is, you 00:53:21.650 --> 00:53:23.909 know, kind of voting with your wallet, right? 00:53:24.690 --> 00:53:30.380 Make decisions when you're... engaging in a purchase 00:53:30.380 --> 00:53:35.940 that are informed by these issues of repairability. 00:53:37.340 --> 00:53:40.559 Think about who you want to spend your money 00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:43.619 with. Think about what businesses you want to 00:53:43.619 --> 00:53:46.539 support. If there's a local... independent repair 00:53:46.539 --> 00:53:49.239 shop in your community, think about stopping 00:53:49.239 --> 00:53:52.460 by the next time there's a problem with your 00:53:52.460 --> 00:53:55.260 phone. I've had really great experiences with 00:53:55.260 --> 00:53:57.500 folks that run these small businesses. They're 00:53:57.500 --> 00:53:59.719 incredibly responsive, they're really attentive, 00:54:00.139 --> 00:54:02.059 they're often like smart and interesting people 00:54:02.059 --> 00:54:06.179 and fun to talk to. So I think those are three 00:54:06.179 --> 00:54:09.139 things that you can do that aren't particularly... 00:54:09.070 --> 00:54:12.710 labor -intensive, they don't require any special 00:54:12.710 --> 00:54:16.090 expertise or knowledge, but just kind of sharing 00:54:16.090 --> 00:54:19.369 your own stories I think can be a really powerful 00:54:19.369 --> 00:54:30.110 part of this process. One thing that I've learned 00:54:30.110 --> 00:54:34.659 through this process is that the right to repair 00:54:34.659 --> 00:54:37.840 appeals to lots of different constituencies for 00:54:37.840 --> 00:54:40.699 lots of very different reasons, right? So if 00:54:40.699 --> 00:54:43.440 I'm talking to a sort of left -leaning person 00:54:43.440 --> 00:54:45.940 about the right to repair, I'm going

to focus 00:54:45.940 --> 00:54:48.960 on the environmental impact of kind of disposable 00:54:48.960 --> 00:54:51.000 consumerism, right? We're throwing out all of 00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:54.699 these devices, like we throw out an obscene number. 00:54:55.720 --> 00:55:00.059 phones and televisions every year. That's wasteful 00:55:00.059 --> 00:55:02.960 both on the front end because we have to produce 00:55:02.960 --> 00:55:06.019 new devices to replace them and that requires 00:55:06.019 --> 00:55:08.960 right all sorts of mining of rare earth metals 00:55:08.960 --> 00:55:10.960 and like lots of environmentally destructive 00:55:10.960 --> 00:55:14.460 practices just to make these products and then 00:55:14.460 --> 00:55:16.000 we're throwing them into landfills and they're 00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:19.099 all full of heavy metals and you know you know 00:55:19.099 --> 00:55:21.719 chemicals that are gonna poison the groundwater 00:55:21.719 --> 00:55:25.610 right that is reason enough for a lot of people 00:55:25.610 --> 00:55:28.550 to take this issue seriously. If I'm talking 00:55:28.550 --> 00:55:32.130 to a more conservative person, I might emphasize 00:55:32.130 --> 00:55:34.730 economic impact here, right? We're going to have 00:55:34.730 --> 00:55:37.289 savings for consumers. We're going to encourage 00:55:37.289 --> 00:55:39.869 small businesses, independent repair shops, our 00:55:39.869 --> 00:55:43.769 local businesses, right? They're not thousand 00:55:43.769 --> 00:55:47.730 store best buy chains around the country, right? 00:55:47.730 --> 00:55:49.969 So that money is going to stay in the local economy. 00:55:50.369 --> 00:55:53.920 And I think I would also emphasize to that that 00:55:53.920 --> 00:55:56.760 same kind of from that same conservative perspective. 00:55:57.420 --> 00:56:00.760 the value of personal property rights. It means 00:56:00.760 --> 00:56:03.659 something to own my car, right? And what it ought 00:56:03.659 --> 00:56:07.940 to mean is I can do whatever I please with that 00:56:07.940 --> 00:56:10.420 vehicle within the bounds of the law, right? 00:56:10.460 --> 00:56:13.519 So if I want to fix it when it breaks down, I 00:56:13.519 --> 00:56:15.219 should be able to do that. If I want to modify 00:56:15.219 --> 00:56:18.280 it to perform better for my needs, I ought to 00:56:18.280 --> 00:56:21.539 be able to do that too. And so I think there's 00:56:21.539 --> 00:56:25.699 an argument here for everyone, which is... One 00:56:25.699 --> 00:56:27.780 of the reasons that all the polling on the right 00:56:27.780 --> 00:56:31.500 to repair shows, you know, Republicans, Democrats, 00:56:31.820 --> 00:56:36.099 independents, 80 to 90 % approval on this issue. 00:56:36.780 --> 00:56:40.340 And so I think when you get that in front of 00:56:40.340 --> 00:56:44.400 a lawmaker, it's pretty tough for them to resist 00:56:44.400 --> 00:56:46.880 these arguments, even though there's a lot of 00:56:46.880 --> 00:56:49.260 money and a lot of lobbying on the other side 00:56:49.260 --> 00:56:56.820 of the issue. Thanks to Aaron Perzanowski from 00:56:56.820 --> 00:56:59.280 the University of Michigan. You can find his 00:56:59.280 --> 00:57:01.860 book, The Right to Repair, reclaiming the things 00:57:01.860 --> 00:57:04.340 that we own at your favorite independent bookseller. 00:57:04.820 --> 00:57:06.840 And thanks again to Steve Figgett at Sycamore 00:57:06.840 --> 00:57:09.480 International. You can find out more about electronic 00:57:09.480 --> 00:57:12.840 recycling at sycamoreinternational .com. We'll 00:57:12.840 --> 00:57:15.219 have those links and more resources in the show 00:57:15.219 --> 00:57:20.929 notes. And that's a wrap on this season of the 00:57:20.929 --> 00:57:23.730 Circle Up podcast. You know, Candice, every time 00:57:23.730 --> 00:57:25.889 I get discouraged about the state of the world, 00:57:26.130 --> 00:57:28.389 I think about all the people and businesses we've 00:57:28.389 --> 00:57:30.329 talked to over the course of this season. And 00:57:30.329 --> 00:57:32.289 it gives me hope that we can get to a circular 00:57:32.289 --> 00:57:35.710 economy here in Philly. Same. And what really 00:57:35.710 --> 00:57:38.150 grounds me is how tangible the progress already 00:57:38.150 --> 00:57:40.570 is. We're not just talking about these ideas. 00:57:40.869 --> 00:57:43.969 We're seeing real service providers, real neighborhoods, 00:57:44.150 --> 00:57:46.989 real businesses. proving that circular systems 00:57:46.989 --> 00:57:50.449 work. Whether it's companies redesigning packaging, 00:57:51.369 --> 00:57:53.250 organizations building reuse infrastructure, 00:57:53.750 --> 00:57:56.409 or community groups keeping materials in circulation, 00:57:56.989 --> 00:57:59.610 the momentum is real and it's happening right 00:57:59.610 --> 00:58:02.010 here in Philadelphia, not in some hypothetical 00:58:02.010 --> 00:58:05.489 future. That's what makes me believe we can scale 00:58:05.489 --> 00:58:11.440 this because people are already doing it. And 00:58:11.440 --> 00:58:13.699 if you've been listening to this season and thinking, 00:58:14.159 --> 00:58:17.960 I want to help move this forward, you can. Becoming 00:58:17.960 --> 00:58:20.300 a member or sponsor of Circular Philadelphia 00:58:20.300 --> 00:58:23.480 directly supports the work we're doing to build 00:58:23.480 --> 00:58:26.880 the policies, the infrastructure, and the partnerships 00:58:26.880 --> 00:58:30.630 that make a circular economy possible. Membership 00:58:30.630 --> 00:58:33.230 strengthens our advocacy and our community network, 00:58:33.570 --> 00:58:36.869 and sponsorship helps us expand programs, convene 00:58:36.869 --> 00:58:39.769 stakeholders, and accelerate real systems change 00:58:39.769 --> 00:58:42.710 across the city. Because the more people and 00:58:42.710 --> 00:58:45.210 the more organizations who step into this work, 00:58:45.670 --> 00:58:48.170 the faster Philadelphia becomes a place where 00:58:48.170 --> 00:58:51.050 circularity isn't the exception. It's the norm. 00:59:02.700 --> 00:59:06.099 Thanks so much for listening to the Circle Podcast. 00:59:06.639 --> 00:59:08.980 And if you've enjoyed this series, tell all your 00:59:08.980 --> 00:59:11.860 friends. And a special thanks again to all of 00:59:11.860 --> 00:59:14.199 our contributors throughout the series. Everyone 00:59:14.199 --> 00:59:16.880 who shared their expertise, opened their doors, 00:59:17.099 --> 00:59:19.920 told their stories, and let us bring listeners 00:59:19.920 --> 00:59:22.400 behind the scenes of the circular economy in 00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:25.719 action. This season wouldn't exist without their 00:59:25.719 --> 00:59:28.619 time and their commitment to doing things differently. 00:59:30.300 --> 00:59:33.320 The Circle Up podcast is presented by Circular 00:59:33.320 --> 00:59:36.260 Philadelphia. It was produced by Meredith Nutting 00:59:36.260 --> 00:59:39.639 at Cool Goon Productions. This podcast was supported 00:59:39.639 --> 00:59:41.940 by a grant from Penn Treaty Special Services 00:59:41.940 --> 00:59:44.699 District. If you want to learn more about the 00:59:44.699 --> 00:59:46.800 circular economy, go to circularphiladelphia 00:59:46.800 --> 00:59:47.599 .org.