النص الكامل لحلقة Counterintuitive thinking, the chief context officer and creating space with Eduard de Vries Sands

us running the business on a day-to-day basis. 00:04:24.399 --> 00:04:28.720 So we're explaining to the board, hey, this is the context, this is how this happened. 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:34.000 And then in the afternoon, I had a quick check-in with my leadership team to kind of tell them what came out of the board meeting. 00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:35.920 And I was doing the same the opposite way. 00:04:35.920 --> 00:04:38.480 And I was sitting there, I'm the chief context officer. 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:43.199 I'm constantly creating context for everyone so they can execute on their role. 00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:53.120 If you translate this into, I would say, my second charge at Aversana, besides being the CIO, it's also for one of our larger divisions to really move to a product operating model. 00:04:53.120 --> 00:04:54.399 So, what does that mean? 00:04:54.399 --> 00:04:57.040 That means we will long term not have a technology team. 00:04:57.040 --> 00:05:03.040 Long term the technology and the business operations team will be integrated and they'll be driving towards a business outcome. 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:08.720 So we're moving away from the old model of like project management and funding it per delivery. 00:05:08.720 --> 00:05:14.000 But we're going to say we're going to create outcomes our clients are willing to pay for. 00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:14.319 Yeah. 00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:16.160 And that's a really fundamental difference. 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:18.480 It's not what our business units are willing to pay for. 00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:28.160 So that means for me, there's not a week I don't talk to clients, external clients, because I'm trying to understand what is valuable in the market and what can be valuable a year from now. 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:33.199 And I take what I learn and then work with our teams to make sure we deliver that and we drive for that. 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:38.720 So the role of the CIO is really transforming into how do I really set the right goals? 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:40.720 How do I create the right context? 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:44.399 And then get teams who, with really good people, we can execute. 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:47.199 Because we need to find the opportunities and then capture them. 00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:49.600 And that to me is an amazing role to be in. 00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:54.000 I feel very lucky that we get to like straddle those worlds and connect them and be the bridge. 00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:56.639 No, I think that's incredibly powerful. 00:05:56.639 --> 00:06:03.040 But something else you brought up is that product mindset as opposed to project mindset. 00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:06.000 How does life cycle management kind of come into that? 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:09.279 Because that's part of a typical product mindset. 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:16.720 If I think about it, like so you work backwards, and it's almost I'm using the Amazon terminology here, but what are we trying to achieve? 00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:24.399 And in the past, we've all done these, you know, I've done an SAP transformation for an $11 billion company, and the goal was to implement SAP. 00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:29.680 Well, I can tell you this: that company didn't have shareholders, but the shareholders would not have gotten better out of it. 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:40.879 If I would have said we are able to manage our business better, to make better business decisions, to consolidated supply purchasing with that funded, that was the outcomes we were driving for, but we didn't understand that. 00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:49.120 So well, I think where we're really going with this is that we need to say, how do we define the outcomes which are valuable? 00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:51.120 And then how do we work backwards from that? 00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:53.120 And that's then also the lifecycle management. 00:06:53.120 --> 00:07:00.399 So at some point, the new things we build together with our business friends should be so good that in a lifecycle management, people keep moving forward. 00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:01.759 It's a value play. 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:06.240 And I think too often in the past we've done IT as a cosplay, and that just doesn't work. 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:11.040 The other thing I would say is the project mindset is really a short-term mindset. 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:13.040 That is, what do we deliver in two, three months? 00:07:13.040 --> 00:07:15.439 But I'm trying to make sure that I'm doing two things. 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:20.800 Number one, I need to, for my business, continue to reduce the cost to deliver my business results. 00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:23.680 But that is what is necessary to be competitive. 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:25.439 Without that, I'm going to lose in the market. 00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:26.879 That doesn't allow me to win. 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:33.439 What allows me to win in the markets is really have a differentiated offering, a different business outcome my clients are willing to pay for. 00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:41.920 So I'm trying to play that dual track and help my business units to really drive both sides because you can't do one of them and win anymore in this economy, I believe. 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:43.360 That's really powerful. 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:51.279 And you're talking about some things that are kind of counterintuitive to thinking for the CIO, but there's a balance to be struck. 00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:56.319 How do you kind of walk through that, striking that right balance? 00:07:57.120 --> 00:07:58.800 Well, it's hard. 00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:03.279 I mean, many of us, you know, want to build something which is lasting. 00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:04.800 It's, you know, build our legacy. 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:08.720 So even I have amazing IT teams, but they want to build monuments at times. 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:23.839 So how do we make sure that we don't build monuments, but that we really say, maybe there's

certain areas we want to shrink a little bit and we want to reskill our people so we can move them from legacy environments to something we're driving with the cloud and something we're driving with AI. 00:08:23.839 --> 00:08:36.080 We constantly have to reassess what we're doing, which is scary at times, because if you're the manager of a legacy team, you've got to see, like, hey, we might move people over, but eventually there's a pathway for me to go as well. 00:08:36.080 --> 00:08:42.240 Because if I don't provide the pathway, I will have internal resistance and any change creates resistance. 00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:49.200 So that's why I think earlier on I said we have to be more of an influencer as the CIO, but we also have to show the inspiration. 00:08:49.200 --> 00:08:50.559 Why do we do what we do? 00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:53.840 And why does it get us to get the right long-term outcome? 00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:56.799 Because otherwise, change for the sake of change is a bit scary. 00:08:57.039 --> 00:08:57.360 Yeah. 00:08:57.360 --> 00:09:05.039 You know, in the past you've talked about resistance and how the antibodies come out, which I would have found that to be interesting. 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:06.559 But that's true. 00:09:06.559 --> 00:09:07.360 It really happens. 00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:18.000 And think about it, even when there's change, I mean, I love to create change, but when I have to change, I'm also sometimes have to swallow deeply and say, well, I know it's the right thing long term, but short term, it's a bit of a pain. 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:23.600 We need to help people across those bridges because if we don't, we will get stuck and other companies will pass us. 00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:24.159 Yeah. 00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:26.559 No, I think you're yeah, I think you're spot on there. 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:28.639 Let's talk about value for a second. 00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:38.159 Because this is something that comes up again and again, and there's always this conversation about cost and cost center, especially when you talk about IT. 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:43.919 What's kind of your take on CIO focus around value? 00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:48.879 I think there's two it goes to the two buckets again. 00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:51.919 There's one bucket which I would almost call the commodity services. 00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:58.000 At our company or at home, I buy electricity and never look where I can get the better electricity, because it's just electricity. 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:02.480 We have to accept that a number of the services we provide are like that today. 00:10:02.480 --> 00:10:04.960 You know, networking, storage, all these things. 00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:14.720 We just need to run them at the lowest price point we can run them so we can shift more of our people to the places which really drive value, which really enable our business to get value. 00:10:14.720 --> 00:10:19.919 And that value in my mind is client-paid value. 00:10:19.919 --> 00:10:23.759 So what we've got to do is take our commodity services and drive them down. 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:26.000 Those costs have to continue to be driven down. 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:29.679 And whether you do it in the cloud or somewhere else, that's a detail. 00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:35.919 But it's about directionally, I want to minimize my spend there so I can maximize the spend where I generate a larger return. 00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:39.440 And as a shareholder, that's how I generate enterprise value. 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:44.240 By generating value for my clients, we're unwilling to give me a share of the value I've created. 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:47.039 So we really look at it like that as a stick. 00:10:47.039 --> 00:10:52.879 And even sometimes in our management meetings in IT, we'll draw it on the wall and we'll say, look, there's $100 available. 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:55.039 What can we do to make it $120? 00:10:55.039 --> 00:10:58.480 So how can we create $20 additional value for our clients? 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:04.000 And will we have the right to take five or seven of those dollars to generate the additional $20? 00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:09.360 And if you start thinking in those terms, the solutions you find as a technology group become different. 00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:10.879 And it's a lot of fun to do it. 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:12.320 That's fascinating. 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:28.320 If I kind of double-click on that for just a second, when you talk about maybe even some of the infrastructure pieces versus some of the higher-level applications or things that are closer to the customer, closer to the employee, how do you think about the that value as it applies? 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:33.840 Or is it not specific to what we ostensibly would call the stack? 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:36.799 And is it more tied to something else? 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:38.879 I think the stack is a part of it. 00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:43.519 And I think you have to be very clear where am I differentiated? 00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:47.919 Where can I create value just by doing the same as everything everybody else does? 00:11:47.919 --> 00:11:51.519 So, for example, let's say you buy a platform like Salesforce. 00:11:51.519 --> 00:11:54.320 It's a really good platform, but my competitors buy the same. 00:11:54.320 --> 00:11:57.279 So that might be the best way to get what I need. 00:11:57.279 --> 00:12:00.960 And it's going to give a certain amount of base value, but it's not going to allow me to win in the market. 00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:07.039 To win in the market, I need to say how do I apply this platform in a unique way that creates value for my clients? 00:12:07.039 --> 00:12:17.440 So maybe it is that I do certain things in the background with data, that I do certain things to find insights my competitors don't have because I've got this expertise and I've got this team. 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:23.679 But you've got to be

very careful to not think you're going to get significant value from deploying an out-of-the-box platform. 00:12:23.679 --> 00:12:25.519 Because those are the past days. 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:29.840 I think there are many different ways that you could apply that thinking. 00:12:29.840 --> 00:12:35.360 How do you walk through that and how do you prioritize that thinking? 00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:41.279 I think as a team, you do that, but then at the end of the day, you prioritize it together with your business partners. 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:48.720 Because I, you know, and my team might come up with certain ideas, but at the end it's my business partners, it's my division heads who bring in the revenue and the margin. 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:55.279 So we will come up with certain hypothesis together, and then we'll say, what is the cost also to prove or disprove the hypothesis? 00:12:55.279 --> 00:13:02.000 Can we do this as a very small scale, at a relatively low cost, and accept that we want a certain betting average? 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:16.559 So if we say we're going to do 10, you know, experiments, ten bets in a fairly low cost, I'm completely fine if seven of them fail, as long as the three, once we scale up, create so much value that the invest the small investment for the seven become irrelevant. 00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:27.039 So it's about learning quickly, cutting all things off quickly, and experimenting together as a business leaders, because it can't be that IT, I don't want another proof of concept which then becomes production. 00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:30.960 I want to say test it out and then scale it up or shut it down. 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:31.600 Yeah. 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:37.519 And of the ten, making sure that the three outweigh the negative from the seven. 00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:45.600 You need to, at a very early stage, determine it and you've got to be ruthless because you've got to kill the other seven early, because otherwise the model doesn't work. 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:47.600 But then it becomes a betting average game. 00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:50.000 And I think over the years we've gotten pretty good at it. 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:56.240 As long as you're rigorous and you're willing to, even though the baby might look good, you've got to say, this is not going to work and make the decision early. 00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:14.799 Aaron Powell In our conversations, one of the things that's kind of struck me is how you're able to swing between the conversations you have with your board and the conversation or at a board level, but then also the conversations you're having with your staff, with your team, and then also your peer group. 00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:17.759 So it's kind of up, down, horizontal. 00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:22.000 How do you organize that in your mind from a leadership standpoint? 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:26.559 Like what is top of mind for you and where do you focus your time? 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:31.279 And I think this, you know, this has evolved over my career. 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:34.159 I tend to have really good people reporting to me. 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:40.159 And I keep them engaged because most of them have a choice to go somewhere else at the end of the day, because good talent does. 00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:41.759 So, how do you keep people engaged? 00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:48.480 That means giving them space to operate at the top of their license, because then they will in return do it to their staff and et cetera, et cetera. 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:50.000 So you can go down the chain. 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:56.639 So, number one, if you think about it, the people who are in their specific area will always come up as better IDs than me. 00:14:56.639 --> 00:14:58.080 So give them the space to do it. 00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:08.399 But this gives me time so I can then say I can spend less time managing my organization and more time spending it with clients to find the opportunities, spending it with my peers or with the board. 00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:11.840 And I think long-term as a CIO, you have to do that. 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:15.120 So, for example, I think I'm on one or two steering committees. 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:17.919 Most CIOs are on 27 steering committees. 00:15:17.919 --> 00:15:23.679 I don't go there because every time if I go there and I make decisions, I take power away from my leaders. 00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:28.720 And my leaders will probably make better decisions than me because they're more aware of the context of that specific area. 00:15:28.720 --> 00:15:34.799 So it's about creating space for yourself and then giving coaching to your people to keep being successful. 00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:40.320 And I think with that you also get morale up and it really creates a certain energy in the organization. 00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:49.759 And then when we see opportunities on the outside with clients, we can capitalize on them fairly quickly because we've created the space and the mechanisms to quickly change our direction. 00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:50.480 Yeah. 00:15:50.480 --> 00:16:08.320 I think one of the things that is fascinating, what you're saying, is allowing that space for others to grow and also making time for yourself, because this is one of the problems that IT leaders, CIOs have is there's only so much time in the day. 00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:13.279 It reminds me of an experience I had in my own life when I started scuba diving. 00:16:13.279 --> 00:16:20.960 When I first started scuba diving, one of the things that I realized is if I can focus on controlling my air consumption. 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:24.879 And for those of you that are scuba divers, you'll understand what I'm talking about. 00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:34.399 But men over women tend to consume air much more quickly because we have larger lung capacity on average and chew up air more quickly. 00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:42.799 And so I thought if I can

manage my breathing, that will give me more bottom time that then I can work on my other skills. 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:45.759 And you're talking about this from a leadership standpoint. 00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:54.720 How do I start to enable others to be able to do things and maximize my time so I can allow time for me to spend in other areas? 00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:57.679 And I think part of that is making very conscious decisions. 00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:00.480 So it's about what are the meeting cadences you do? 00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:02.080 What meetings can you get out of? 00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:07.279 But it's the same time, for example, I don't really schedule one-on-ones, not with my people, not with my boss. 00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:10.960 Same time the rule is if you need me, I will always be available the same day. 00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:17.279 So then what's starting to happen, a lot of your meetings are one-on-one meetings, always two or three people, which are very productive. 00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:23.200 Instead of the 30, 40, 50 people meetings, which let's be very honest, we're all doing our email, it's not productive. 00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:26.880 Well, let's just be real and let just say, I'm not going to show up. 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:39.680 If I don't need to make a decision there, or we can do this in an email, you'll be surprised if you're really rigorous about this and accept that some people will have some hurt feelings in the beginning when you decline their meeting, but then things become significantly more productive. 00:17:39.680 --> 00:17:46.240 And actually, it's more exciting as well because I get energy out of talking to one, two, three, or four people and have a really great debate. 00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:49.359 Nobody gets excitement out of meeting with 30, 50 people. 00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:50.640 It's just you have to do it. 00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:58.640 So it's amazing how much space you can create up in your organization to get out of that meeting culture, and then to say, well, how do we replace that meeting culture? 00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:04.000 We need to put certain cascading connecting points in place so we actually have information flowing up and down. 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:12.079 And at the same time, some of the things have to be written or on tools like Teams or Slack so I can know what's going on without having to go to all those meetings. 00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:21.279 And that also allows me to, I would say, still, you know, I'm not saying I work 40 hours because none of us do, but I also don't want to work a hundred hours either every week because I can't keep that up physically. 00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:22.799 I think that's really important. 00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:28.880 And you kind of talked to in passing how your leadership style has changed. 00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:35.359 Maybe we could double-click on that a little bit and talk a little more about what you've learned over the course of your career. 00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:49.920 Because I think one of the things that that listeners get out of these episodes is really to learn from others and even seasoned CIOs listening to this and really trying to pick up something here, there, or elsewhere. 00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:59.920 When you think about how your leadership style has changed over the years, what are some ways that that you've kind of gone through that journey, but then what you've picked up along the way? 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:00.640 Absolutely. 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:02.799 And it was interesting to listen to your episode. 00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:05.519 I think it came out on Monday with the CIO of Adobe. 00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:08.160 It's always interesting to learn from other leaders, as you said. 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:15.440 I think for me, what I've learned is that earlier in my career, I had to be the guy who could find the answers. 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:22.720 And I think then I got to the stage where I have to build an organization, a team, which can, you know, which has the answers. 00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:27.680 And I think now I'm at a stage where I've got to have an organization where we can quickly find the answers. 00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:32.799 And it's interesting because sometimes I still get a question like, hey, how do I do this and this application? 00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:42.960 And the chance that I've been in that application is just about zero, but I can now type it into Chat GPT, and I can get an answer probably as quickly as our expert in that specific application. 00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:59.839 So it's all about it, all becomes now about the teams being context aware, being and understanding where the value is, and driving there, and then trying to hand off the low level tasks to have the applications do it, to have AI do it, and pretty soon we will have AI agents do it for us. 00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:05.200 So again, we're constantly creating this space to almost move up in the value chain. 00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:07.200 Because that's what we have to do in technology. 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:14.160 We have to start to focus on what's the next level of value, and you only get there by understanding where the value of your clients has created. 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:18.319 So that's why I always go back to that and then work back into our organization. 00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:22.240 So then we say some things are basic, they just have to happen. 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:23.359 Some things are special. 00:20:23.359 --> 00:20:27.920 So how do we create enough time to work on those things which really create value? 00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:38.319 And if you talk to two other CIOs, a lot of them are amazing and they actually probably have the answers, but they get so stuck into delivering the day today and making sure the network stays up. 00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:39.039 That's important. 00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:40.240 But I've got great people. 00:20:40.240 -->

00:20:41.759 They will keep the network up. 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:42.720 They don't need me. 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:46.079 And I probably am more of a distraction than an added value to them. 00:20:46.079 --> 00:20:52.880 So if you're self-aware enough of that and you make sure your people get to respect, and if something goes wrong, you take the blame. 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:58.559 You create an organization which punches above its weight and has a lot of fun while they're doing it at the same time. 00:20:58.880 --> 00:20:59.680 That's cool. 00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:13.440 I mean, but you're also talking about something else, which is not just that your leadership has changed, but also how you are moving people within your organization to think differently and get them to grow and expand their capabilities too. 00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:14.319 Absolutely. 00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:16.240 And I run a town every month. 00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:17.680 I mean, that's still from the COVID days. 00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:19.599 Partly, I just love to interact with it. 00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:20.400 And it's interesting. 00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:22.079 I love that we have a running chat. 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:25.200 We have a few hundred people on, and you can get questions the whole time. 00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:29.119 But I probably spend a quarter of the time explaining like how is our business doing? 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:30.640 Um, what are our competitors doing? 00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:35.440 I'll pull in some Wall Street Journal articles like, hey, this is what's happening with other marketing agencies. 00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:46.640 It's important for me to make people understand you might be on the service desk, you might be installing new PCs, but in our business, because of what you do, we were able to get that patient their medication. 00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:52.240 And I think when we can draw that line, that inspires our people, but it also allows them to make better decisions. 00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:58.880 Because maybe in the past they would say, Well, I have a process and I need to go two levels up to share, to ship something overnight. 00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:05.759 Well, I know by now my service desk people, if they know it's for somebody who gets specialty medication to infants, they're not going to ask it. 00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:08.000 They're just going to do it because they know it's the right thing to do. 00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:13.839 And if they make a wrong decision and the impact is small, live and learn and get over, make sure we do it right the next time. 00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:20.960 So I think a lot of it, I have to show my team I'm constantly learning and growing, and then I have to empower them to do the same. 00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:28.640 So that also means we have certain subscriptions with Gardner where our people are able to get training all the time because I want them to continue to be upskilling. 00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:34.240 And

your listeners can't see my background, but I have more books than a human should own because I love reading. 00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:35.519 But it's the same thing again. 00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:36.559 Like, how do we keep growing? 00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:37.920 How do we learn from other industries? 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:41.839 How do we learn from oil and gas, what we can apply in the industry I'm in right now? 00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:44.240 There are more similarities than differences. 00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:54.079 And if you go back to the fundamentals, which I think we can do as an executive, it takes you one or two months to really figure out how does this division create value, and then you can move on to the next one. 00:22:54.079 --> 00:22:59.759 If you understand that context and you can get your team to understand the context, I think you can move out way faster. 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:04.640 Yeah, and that's something that learning process, that curiosity trait. 00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:09.920 You referred back to the episode with Cindy Stoddard, CIO at Adobe, and she talked about this. 00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:15.839 And I've talked about it in my past and teams that I've led, we would hire to Curiosity. 00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:18.240 It was one of the traits we would seek out. 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:26.400 When you think about how you're learning and growing, how you are expanding your capability and your knowledge base. 00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:33.759 You mentioned the books, which I have the pleasure of seeing on the screen, is all the books in the background. 00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:40.880 But what are some other ways that you are constantly kind of going through that process, that being that lifetime learner? 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:44.240 I think it's every conversation I have, I try to learn from people. 00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:49.920 So when I sit with a client, I'm trying to understand what are the bigger issues they're facing, how is their market going? 00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:55.200 I was in Italy a few weeks back and I was on an Uber and I asked them, like, how is the economy going here? 00:23:55.200 --> 00:24:00.640 Everything is a data point, and you don't know where the connection is, but over time we start to see the patterns. 00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:06.240 I'm really lucky that my boss, a CEO, and our board, they will share analyst reports as well what's happening in the industry. 00:24:06.240 --> 00:24:12.880 And over time, you build a fairly broad network of input you get, and you then try to keep up with reading it. 00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:16.079 And lastly, I have a habit like for Christmas, I give my team books. 00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:19.039 Other people I'll talk to, like, oh, you've got to read this book, send it to you. 00:24:19.039 --> 00:24:21.200 So in return, people start to do the same as me. 00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:28.000 But the same as articles, you have to constantly read and then say, what knowledge can I share and

apply in the right place? 00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:31.440 Because there's not many things we're discovering for the first time. 00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:36.400 We're often taking innovations and applying them in our industry or in our specific market. 00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:41.599 So the more I learn, the more I see opportunities for value and I can bring them to my business. 00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:44.480 And look, as a shareholder, that helps me at the end of the day. 00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:45.519 Love that. 00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:46.480 Love that. 00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:52.480 So as we kind of wrap on this episode, I always like to ask, what excites you most? 00:24:52.480 --> 00:25:00.240 When you think about the role of the CIO, where technology is headed, you think about how business is evolving too. 00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:08.799 I mean, let's not talk about technology in a vacuum, as you mentioned, but thinking about that intersection between business and technology that I often kind of tie in together. 00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:15.039 When you think about where the role of the CIO is going, where technology is going, where business is going, what excites you the most? 00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:21.519 I think what excites me the most is how integral technology, AI, data is in the business. 00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:26.640 Before we could talk about we had business and then we had technology, that doesn't apply anymore. 00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:32.400 Today, every business discussion we have, every product or service we sell, technology is a component of it. 00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:40.000 So now instead of saying, oh, I wish I had a seat at the table, which I think some of our predecessors, they had to have that conversation 10, 20 years ago. 00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:46.400 Now the question is, can I sometimes get away from the table so I can actually, you know, help my team get there and spend more time with clients? 00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:48.960 So I think it's a very exciting time. 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:52.640 And the key is we have to give up control. 00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:59.680 I think the key is like there's some guardrails we've got to put in place because I'm never going to criticize on some of our security, our compliance things. 00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:09.920 But at the same time, we've got to be build a federated model where we enable and empower our business leaders to make the right solutions, to apply technology to their businesses to drive value. 00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:15.440 And then we're there as an influencer, as a consultant, saying, hey, maybe there's an opportunity there, or can I help you there? 00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:19.279 That is the model we have to get to, because the old model doesn't scale. 00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:24.720 And then lastly, I would say if you work for a business which was starting in the last 15 years, great. 00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:25.759 I'm a little bit jealous. 00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:28.079 But most of us don't work for digital natives. 00:26:28.079 --> 00:26:31.759 So how do we move these, you know, I don't want to call them legacy business. 00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:36.079 How do we work these businesses which have a lot of expertise, a lot of clients, a lot of revenue margin? 00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:43.359 How do we get them to apply technology, which sometimes you can cannibalize a little bit of your existing revenue, but the upside is so good. 00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:46.640 And if you don't do it, one of these digital natives will eat your lunch. 00:26:46.640 --> 00:26:48.400 So how do we balance that? 00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:54.640 And then how then we go back to the beginning and how do you enable that change, which sometimes is a little bit scary, but that's the right thing to do. 00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:56.079 The CIO is lucky. 00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:10.640 They get to be a key part of this, and they get to maybe not lead with it all directly, but we sure get to influence a lot of it and make sure if it goes well that our business units get the credit, because at the end of the day, it helps our company to be successful, and that's why we're there. 00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:11.680 Love it. 00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:13.359 We're gonna have to leave it right there. 00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:17.279 I always learn something new from you every conversation we have. 00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:21.279 Thanks so much for taking the time today to join the discussion. 00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:25.119 Absolutely, and thank you for having me, and I look forward to our next discussion. 00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:32.400 For more information on the CIO in the know podcast, visit us online at CIOinthenow.com. 00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:36.799 You can also find us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcast. 00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:39.680 Please subscribe and thank you for listening.