النص الكامل لحلقة The Candidate

and Cisco Pike, another movie that you are a huge fan of. 00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:27.279 I liked both of them. 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:28.399 I like images a little more. 00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:30.480 I cannot believe it as an Altman film. 00:04:30.639 --> 00:04:33.680 I don't know if we're gonna do it, but it's a really compelling movie. 00:04:33.759 --> 00:04:36.240 It's kind of like a psychological horror film. 00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:43.680 Um it's sort of almost surrealistic at times, but um a very strange entry in the Altman filmography, wouldn't you say? 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:50.160 Yes, and that's what one of the things that's so appealing about it is that it's it's the least obvious Altman film. 00:04:50.560 --> 00:05:08.959 Although it shares some affinities with his early effort, That Cold Day in the Park, and then shares some affinities with three women from 1977 as kind of these moody psychological, almost thriller type films, although you know, three women are certainly not a thriller, but almost his most Bergman-inflected pictures. 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:12.560 And I you don't think of Altman as a Bergman type. 00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:22.240 And also Susannah York, I think this is based on a novel that she wrote, and I think it it she had a large influence on the production as well. 00:05:22.720 --> 00:05:23.759 She's great in the film. 00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:28.560 I mean, it's a really just unusual film, especially for somebody like Altman. 00:05:28.879 --> 00:05:34.319 Um and I I think maybe at some point we should talk about it because it is there's a lot to chew over in that film. 00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:43.600 It's a as like I said, it's a very sort of unusual, discordant, surrealistic movie, um, a lot of dream sequences, a lot of times hard to tell what's reality and what's not reality. 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:45.600 Um, but it's also a beautiful film. 00:05:45.759 --> 00:05:47.839 So uh I give it a thumbs up. 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:52.000 Uh as for Cisco Pike, I mean, I always enjoy something with Chris Christopherson. 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:52.800 He's great. 00:05:52.959 --> 00:05:55.360 Didn't quite catch me the way I think it does for you. 00:05:55.439 --> 00:06:00.959 It sort of falls in kind of the five easy pieces, maybe two-lane blacktop vein, a little bit of early 70s. 00:06:01.439 --> 00:06:02.399 I gotta stop you right there. 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:04.480 I mean, first of all, five easy pieces. 00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:05.759 We're talking Mount Rushmore. 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:06.079 Okay. 00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:07.360 You can't just lump this in. 00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:10.959 I said in the vein, and it's far down the vein. 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:15.120 And uh you know, two-laned is is is is two-lane. 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:20.160 But yeah, I mean, I Cisco Pike I think is a fascinating movie. 00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:35.439 I don't I don't I would never put it in the same camp as a film like Five Easy Pieces, even though

I'll watch Karen Black read the phone book, and she's you know wonderful in this movie, and you've you've got Christofferson and the supporting players, you know. 00:06:35.680 --> 00:06:38.079 You've got Harry Dean Stanton in there among many others. 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:45.439 It's a fascinating film that we should talk about one day, but I find it really collapses at the end in a in a in a way I didn't buy. 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:47.199 Yeah, I kind of agree with that, actually. 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:54.240 And I thought Gene Hackman, who's in the movie, I mean, he's always good, but it's sort of an odd performance, and the character is odd. 00:06:54.319 --> 00:06:55.759 I didn't quite buy it. 00:06:55.920 --> 00:07:01.759 Um I also went back and I watched uh I should have never seen this before, Da uh Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore, an early Scorsese. 00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:04.560 And um oh man, I don't know. 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:05.279 You know what? 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:13.279 I really enjoyed this movie until the ending, which to use a phrase you like to use was borderline unforgivable. 00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:20.000 Uh just uh the ending of that movie is so disappointing, so non-70s. 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:24.240 Um having said that, I think Ellen Burston is great. 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:27.680 Um I think uh is Chris Chris Opperson also in that movie. 00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:27.839 Yes. 00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:30.639 Of course, it's a little mini festival, Chris Chris Opperson. 00:07:31.279 --> 00:07:32.000 He's great too. 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:33.920 There's a good child actor in that movie. 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:36.959 The relationship between that child and Ellen Burston is great. 00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:41.040 It's really a compelling movie, but again, it really is failed by its ending. 00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:42.240 We could talk about it at some point. 00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:44.079 I think it's a it's a fair movie to consider. 00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:53.040 And Ellen Burston was an extremely important force behind that movie, and and the ending was controversial even during production, and she was involved in that fight. 00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:53.839 Yes. 00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:58.879 Um so let me mention a few other films that I did watch, and this is we want to get first into one. 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:02.160 I I finally went to go see The Odyssey, and this is a fun story. 00:08:02.319 --> 00:08:04.240 I was in South Carolina for vacation. 00:08:04.399 --> 00:08:06.959 We drove to uh what's the name of the town? 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:11.040 It's a town in Georgia that has the tallest IMAX theater in the world. 00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:12.160 True story. 00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:15.759 And uh I think it's called Pooler, Georgia, I believe is where it was. 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:19.360 So as you know, I am a huge Christopher Nolan fan. 00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:23.600 I was very excited to see this movie, and uh I liked it. 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:24.800 Uh I did not love it. 00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:31.199 Uh it it it was a little bloated, it was a little too um spectacle-y. 00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:35.279 And um I well, let me tell you the pause things. 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:36.240 It's a very immersive film. 00:08:36.320 --> 00:08:37.519 I mean, he's a wonderful director. 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:41.600 He's he's he's he's so good with this with sound and the sound production of his films. 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:45.840 It's a very immersive experience, especially in an iMac here to see a film like this. 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:53.360 Um, and there's some interesting elements to it, but I did think that there was a lot of inconsistency in the main character. 00:08:53.519 --> 00:08:58.639 Not inconsistency with the story, but inconsistency in the way that he was presented. 00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:01.440 Um, the movie is, and I actually kind of like this. 00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:04.480 The movie is is it's a take on the Odyssey, but it's a take. 00:09:04.639 --> 00:09:06.720 It's not the it's not faithful to the Odyssey. 00:09:06.799 --> 00:09:06.879 Right. 00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:12.320 It's Nolan kind of having a little bit of um what's it called, artistic uh um license. 00:09:12.559 --> 00:09:13.120 Yes. 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:14.720 And I had no problem with that. 00:09:14.879 --> 00:09:23.440 I mean, the movie is basically an extended take on the impact of war on individuals, but I didn't think that was consistent with that theme throughout the movie. 00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:25.120 Um you obviously have not seen it. 00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:33.120 I I do plan to see it, but I it does have those two strikes against it, strike one epic, and strike two, you know, it's an important movie. 00:09:33.279 --> 00:09:36.639 And the phrase important movie sends me, you know, running in the opposite direction. 00:09:36.799 --> 00:09:41.759 But I've heard so much about it that I do think it's it's essentially obligatory for me to see it. 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:46.799 But again, that that that word obligatory does does inhibit my racing out to see it. 00:09:47.039 --> 00:09:49.519 I I, you know, okay, I think I hear you. 00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:53.440 And the thing about this is, like, you know, Oppenheimer was what, two years ago, three years ago. 00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:55.600 That movie was obligatory viewing. 00:09:55.759 --> 00:09:57.279 I thought that movie was fantastic. 00:09:57.519 --> 00:09:58.639 Uh just I liked it. 00:09:58.879 --> 00:09:59.679 Yeah, you like, right. 00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:03.759 So it so that was a movie that kind of held up to the to the the hype. 00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:07.759 This one uh I didn't feel like it did, but I also feel I need to see it again. 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:14.000 I just think it was it's too much on a first time, especially in IMAX, because it's such an overwhelming experience to see a film like that. 00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:23.200 Aaron

Ross Powell I just want to double back if I haven't said this before and say um regarding what's the movie we just talked about? 00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:24.399 His previous one? 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:25.679 Yeah, Oppenheimer. 00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:26.159 All right, good. 00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:27.919 Senility is definitely setting in here. 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:34.080 Um, it was such a thrill, but it's a double-edged sword, um, to see Robert Downey Jr. 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:35.600 act in that movie. 00:10:36.159 --> 00:10:40.159 I mean, my God, I thought his performance was phenomenal. 00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:46.240 It's what he's capable of doing, and it just makes me angry about what he did for the previous 20 years. 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:46.960 I know. 00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:47.360 I know. 00:10:47.519 --> 00:10:48.559 Um, you know, it's funny. 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:51.279 I liked him in this, I thought uh what's his name? 00:10:51.360 --> 00:10:56.720 Uh Killian Murphy, I thought was really just fantastic in that film. 00:10:57.039 --> 00:10:59.519 Um I actually what's her name? 00:10:59.679 --> 00:11:04.960 The actress who played uh his wife uh I I didn't even remember the name of the movie. 00:11:05.039 --> 00:11:05.679 Don't look at me. 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:06.720 Yeah, I know, right. 00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:07.679 I can't remember her. 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:08.639 I'm forgetting her name. 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:09.919 She's married to the guy from the office. 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:12.159 I didn't like her performance very much, to be honest. 00:11:12.240 --> 00:11:17.279 Um but in general, I just thought that was a brilliant movie, had a real momentum to it, real energy to it. 00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:25.120 That this movie had at various points, but um I think if you sort of if you probe a little deeper on this movie, there are some there are some issues with it. 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:29.600 I I hope I I hope you go see it and then we can talk about it because I'd love to get your your take on it. 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:30.799 I do plan to say it. 00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:32.000 It's just a question of when. 00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:38.720 Okay, I'm gonna mention a few other films that I saw because I just went a little nuts the past two weeks just watching films. 00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:43.039 Uh finally watched uh uh actually I had no, I had seen this movie before, but I didn't remember it very well. 00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:50.240 The Version of Suicides, which is the um film by uh Sophia Coppola, which is widely considered one of her best films. 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:55.200 Um when we had Christina Newland on, I think she said that was her favorite uh Sofia Coppola film. 00:11:55.600 --> 00:11:56.320 I think so, yes. 00:11:56.639 --> 00:12:00.960 I feel that way about that film the way I feel about most of Sophia Coppola's films. 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:02.399 It was good. 00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:03.679 I didn't love it. 00:12:04.159 --> 00:12:04.720 It was fine. 00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:06.480 I I it it didn't quite work for me. 00:12:06.639 --> 00:12:08.639 Um it it was an interesting film. 00:12:08.720 --> 00:12:10.559 She gets good performances out of her actors. 00:12:10.720 --> 00:12:12.159 I just didn't find it as compelling. 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:13.440 I think you have not seen that, correct? 00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:14.639 I have not seen that one. 00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:15.200 Okay. 00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:25.840 Um I'm doing a so a couple things I've been doing, trying to uh the Oliver Assayus uh uh viewing that you would suggest that I tried to do. 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:27.039 I watched Irma Vep. 00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:28.240 Didn't love that movie. 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:29.200 I know you love it. 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:30.159 I thought it was a little slight. 00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:34.159 I thought it was a little it's basically a film sort of, I guess, satirizing the French film industry. 00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:37.360 And if I'm gonna be honest, I just don't really care about the French film industry. 00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:38.879 So I didn't find it verily compelling. 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:40.159 I did like Maggie Chung. 00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:41.039 I think she's great. 00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:42.559 Um, but maybe I need to see it again. 00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:42.960 I don't know. 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:45.519 I know you is that one of your favorite Assayus films? 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:51.279 Um I would not put it in the very, very top, say the Holy Trinity of Assayus films. 00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:51.440 Sure. 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:52.879 But I I like it enormously. 00:12:53.039 --> 00:12:55.200 And here's here's your problem, not my problem. 00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:59.279 I have never seen an Assayus film that didn't get better with repeated viewings. 00:12:59.600 --> 00:12:59.840 There you go. 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:05.279 And I've I've looked over my notes about this, and and it's amazing how I say, this is pretty good. 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:09.120 You know, I expected more from Assayus, and then the second viewing is, wow, this is better than I remembered. 00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:12.799 And by the fourth viewing, I'm just like gushing over the greatest of them all. 00:13:12.879 --> 00:13:17.200 And this invariably is found in my notes about any Assayas film. 00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:23.840 So I I would I would be reluctant to ever to ever even opine about one uh in uh after one viewing. 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:30.960 But I would say, you know, Irma Veb probably slots in for me as a in the second tier. 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:35.679 Like there are four or five Assayus films, maybe even six or seven, that I just think are masterpieces. 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:37.519 And I love Irma Veb, as you said. 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:47.600 I love with a capital L O V E love, but it still, I don't think, is in the category of breathtaking, which so many of his films are for

me. 00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:48.080 Aaron Powell Okay. 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:49.840 Well, I look, I need to watch more of them. 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:51.679 It's on my list of things to do. 00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:54.080 So you know, hopefully I'll get to some more of his movies. 00:13:54.320 --> 00:14:03.440 Uh let me recommend to you and to our viewers Kirk Clean, which also features Maggie Chung and which I think is underseen and devastating. 00:14:44.069 --> 00:14:59.990 So I'm glad you mentioned Maggie Chung because uh seeing her in this film and reminding myself how much I liked her in uh In the Mood for Love, I went back and started watching a bunch of the films from Wong Kar Wai, who's a um Hong Kong filmmaker. 00:15:00.149 --> 00:15:01.589 I'm a big fan of his movies. 00:15:01.750 --> 00:15:03.589 I think we talked about In the Mood for Love. 00:15:03.669 --> 00:15:05.350 I I just adore that movie. 00:15:05.429 --> 00:15:09.589 I think you didn't like it as much as I did, um, but I think it's a great film. 00:15:09.829 --> 00:15:12.389 Um but I watched uh Fallen Angels. 00:15:12.549 --> 00:15:13.429 Have you seen that movie? 00:15:15.029 --> 00:15:15.829 Maybe. 00:15:16.309 --> 00:15:16.949 It's already. 00:15:17.350 --> 00:15:18.389 Which one is it? 00:15:18.629 --> 00:15:22.389 It's the one about the hitman and his assistant. 00:15:22.629 --> 00:15:23.990 Yeah, it's got kind of yes. 00:15:24.230 --> 00:15:25.429 Yes, I have seen it. 00:15:25.990 --> 00:15:35.110 So I like his films a lot, but I think they kind of there's also a film, a filmmaker that works on multiple viewings because that movie, for example, Fallen Angels, is a very confusing movie. 00:15:35.269 --> 00:15:51.110 Um, it's very 90s too, but there's some of the shots in that film, some of the things he does, some of the choices he makes, the way he brings the spec the camera really close up to his actors, the way he sort of go uses the handheld, which which in the 90s a lot of directors really went nuts in a bad way with the handheld camera. 00:15:51.189 --> 00:15:59.350 I remember seeing uh the Lars Venture, and I hate Lars Ventura, but Dancer in the Dark, and wanting to vomit from watching because of the the handheld use in that film. 00:15:59.509 --> 00:16:00.709 But Fallen Angels is much better. 00:16:00.789 --> 00:16:01.829 I it's really great film. 00:16:01.909 --> 00:16:02.709 I I I liked it. 00:16:02.789 --> 00:16:06.469 There are parts of it that were a little uneven, but the parts that are good like really stand out. 00:16:06.629 --> 00:16:10.309 He's got a wonderful sense of feel and and the vibe of his films is really interesting. 00:16:10.389 --> 00:16:12.629 And that's a movie just about sort of loneliness. 00:16:12.709 --> 00:16:19.350 It's a very good 90s kind of like I almost say slacrophone because that's not the way I would have put it, but it's very 90s kind of themes in that movie. 00:16:19.429 --> 00:16:20.549 So I like that one a lot. 00:16:20.709 --> 00:16:30.230 Um and the last one I want to mention is I finally went back and I watched uh Enora, which I had not seen since it came out and since it won, you know, Best Picture. 00:16:30.629 --> 00:16:34.949 And I gotta tell you, that is a fantastic movie. 00:16:35.110 --> 00:16:38.789 That is one of the best movies I've seen in in recent years, and I adored it. 00:16:38.870 --> 00:16:41.829 And I think you don't like it because I do, but you also but you do like it, correct? 00:16:42.069 --> 00:16:42.309 Yes. 00:16:42.469 --> 00:16:47.750 And it's also one of the movies that David Thompson sings about in the new book, A Sudden Flicker of Light. 00:16:47.829 --> 00:16:50.549 And so that that has a lot of street cred with me. 00:16:50.709 --> 00:16:59.750 But I I thought it was excellent, but I my my take onora is that there's uh a 100-minute masterpiece packed in those 139 minutes. 00:17:00.069 --> 00:17:04.230 You know, and it's funny, you said that to me offline, and I was like, the bloat of that movie is why I like it so much. 00:17:04.390 --> 00:17:05.670 I also think it's really interesting. 00:17:05.829 --> 00:17:08.470 There's three very distinct acts in this movie, right? 00:17:08.630 --> 00:17:21.110 Um the first act is a Cinderella story, uh, where the stripper uh slash sex worker Honora gets married to this Russian, you know, this fail son, based on lack of a better term. 00:17:21.269 --> 00:17:25.430 The second part is sort of a Cape or Chase movie that I love, but I get it's a little much for some people. 00:17:25.509 --> 00:17:27.829 And the third part sort of the cold splash of reality. 00:17:28.230 --> 00:17:32.230 Um but I think that the movie, the ending of that movie is so friggin' good. 00:17:32.390 --> 00:17:37.589 Yeah, it kind of encapsulates all the themes of the movie and it's beautiful visual storytelling. 00:17:37.829 --> 00:17:47.430 And uh it captures her character and her challenges and the wall she's built and her fears of intimacy and everything about her into one beautiful scene. 00:17:47.509 --> 00:17:50.310 I I just loved it, and it just really stuck with me for days after I saw it. 00:17:50.390 --> 00:17:51.509 I just couldn't stop thinking about it. 00:17:51.670 --> 00:17:57.029 I know I'd seen it before and I loved it the first time I saw it, but man, if you haven't seen a while, or if you've never seen it, I can't recommend enough. 00:17:57.110 --> 00:17:57.910 It's just a great movie. 00:17:58.310 --> 00:17:59.990 Yeah, and I don't mean to be contrary. 00:18:00.150 --> 00:18:08.950 I mean, I I agree the ending is extremely powerful, and that means that the movie was very successful because the movie has to get you to the place where the ending can be that powerful. 00:18:09.269 --> 00:18:09.509 Absolutely. 00:18:09.830 --> 00:18:10.390 And so it was. 00:18:10.550 --> 00:18:11.350 And so the movie does that. 00:18:11.430 --> 00:18:14.150 And I also really I've seen most of his films, I think.

00:18:14.230 --> 00:18:16.630 I'm a huge advocate of Sean Baker. 00:18:16.710 --> 00:18:22.630 Even when I'm not crazy about a particular entry in his canon, he's what we want. 00:18:22.870 --> 00:18:25.830 He's he has a distinct point of view. 00:18:25.990 --> 00:18:32.950 He's extremely daring, and he does not seem to be someone who gets up in the morning and says, How can I make a commercial movie? 00:18:33.190 --> 00:18:33.509 Yeah. 00:18:34.230 --> 00:18:39.910 Well, the one thing I the one other thought I had about this movie was like, I cannot believe it won best picture. 00:18:40.070 --> 00:18:45.110 It is, it is genuinely shocking to me that a film like this won best picture. 00:18:45.269 --> 00:18:46.870 Um it happens every every couple of years. 00:18:47.029 --> 00:18:50.150 Like Moonlight's other example of that movie that you're like, wait, that one best picture? 00:18:50.230 --> 00:19:03.509 Like this is a movie that is uh it's a tough movie, but it's also one that I think is very is is again like that ending is it's not the kind of thing that I feel like Hollywood or the Oscars voters like respond to as much as they should. 00:19:03.910 --> 00:19:08.950 And it's a good thing that Bob Hope wasn't hosting the ceremony that year because if he was alive, it would have killed him. 00:19:09.190 --> 00:19:10.470 It would have I think that's probably right. 00:19:10.710 --> 00:19:11.910 Oh, or John Wayne. 00:19:12.070 --> 00:19:12.630 Or John Wayne. 00:19:12.950 --> 00:19:13.269 That's true. 00:19:13.350 --> 00:19:14.470 They could have co-hosted it. 00:19:14.630 --> 00:19:18.470 They could have co-hosted and both had a card had a uh cardiac arrest on on stage. 00:19:18.710 --> 00:19:20.470 Um so all right, so that's it. 00:19:20.550 --> 00:19:22.150 I actually have not seen the Sean Baker films. 00:19:22.230 --> 00:19:24.070 I can't believe I haven't seen any other films. 00:19:24.150 --> 00:19:27.110 I really need to now because I just, again, loved it. 00:19:27.269 --> 00:19:27.910 Uh all right. 00:19:27.990 --> 00:19:29.029 So I've gotten through all of that. 00:19:29.110 --> 00:19:32.550 Let's just mention very quickly, we got some very nice notes from uh listeners. 00:19:32.710 --> 00:19:35.509 Our old friend Curly Pubes, haven't heard from him in a while. 00:19:35.670 --> 00:19:38.230 He said, Happy anniversary, gentlemen, a great year podcast. 00:19:38.390 --> 00:19:39.590 Keep it coming. 00:19:39.830 --> 00:19:47.750 Uh, Paul Cunningham, our old friend from uh Ireland, corrected me that Cyril Cusack in the Day of the Jackal is Irish. 00:19:47.910 --> 00:19:49.110 He is not British. 00:19:49.269 --> 00:19:53.350 So I apologize to Paul, all the Irish people, and to any members of Mr. 00:19:53.430 --> 00:19:55.269 Cusack's family who might be listening. 00:19:55.430 --> 00:20:01.350 Uh and finally, uh, we did post the uh Last or Sheila as a bonus episode. 00:20:01.509 --> 00:20:04.870 And I will be making this available to everybody

very soon. 00:20:04.950 --> 00:20:11.670 Uh, but the bonus thing is going to be people can get a sort of sneak preview of some of these episodes, but eventually we're gonna try to put them all out so people can listen to them. 00:20:11.830 --> 00:20:14.870 We did spend half an hour or 45 minutes talking about that movie a year ago. 00:20:15.029 --> 00:20:16.470 We'd like people to hear it. 00:20:16.630 --> 00:20:21.430 Uh, and so that I think that gets us to uh the movie we're talking about today, which is the candidate. 00:20:21.590 --> 00:20:22.390 Uh, what is it about? 00:20:22.710 --> 00:20:28.950 It's a 1972 political satire about Bill McKay, the son of a famous politician who runs for the U.S. 00:20:29.029 --> 00:20:33.430 Senate in California, and political chaos ensues. 00:20:33.750 --> 00:20:36.550 It is directed by Michael Ritchie, it's written by Jeremy Larner. 00:20:36.630 --> 00:20:38.390 We'll talk about more about him in a second. 00:20:38.630 --> 00:20:45.190 Cinematography by Victor Kemper and John Cordy, edited by Robert Esther and Richard Harris, music by John Rubinstein. 00:20:45.430 --> 00:21:03.430 It uh stars Robert Redford as Bill McKay, Peter Boyle, Melvin Douglas, Don Porter, Alan Garfield, Karen Carlson, Michael Lerner, Kenneth Toby, among others, including a number of uh guest spots from uh people like Hubert Humphrey, Alan Cranston, and uh Natalie Wood. 00:21:03.590 --> 00:21:07.670 Uh the film won the Academy Award for Best Original Screenplay for Jeremy Larner. 00:21:07.830 --> 00:21:08.630 I have a good story about that. 00:21:08.790 --> 00:21:10.790 It was also nominated for Best Sound. 00:21:10.870 --> 00:21:19.110 Um, it is not on the AFI list of top 100 films of all time, nor is it on the IndieWire films of the greatest level of 1970s. 00:21:19.670 --> 00:21:22.790 So, Jonathan, it took us a while to get here, but we are here. 00:21:23.350 --> 00:21:26.070 Tell me, the candidate, is this a good film? 00:21:26.470 --> 00:21:29.350 Is this a bad film, or is this a great film? 00:21:29.990 --> 00:21:32.070 It's a really good film. 00:21:33.350 --> 00:21:36.870 More than good, but I cannot I cannot give it the official great seal. 00:21:37.269 --> 00:21:38.470 Interesting, interesting. 00:21:38.710 --> 00:21:40.550 I think I would go great. 00:21:40.950 --> 00:21:50.790 I think this is as good a political satire, a good of a look at the inner workings of a political campaign that I think I've ever seen. 00:21:51.509 --> 00:21:52.390 That's not a documentary. 00:21:52.950 --> 00:22:01.029 And what I think is most compelling about this film is that so many of the themes of this movie felt relevant to today's politics. 00:22:01.430 --> 00:22:01.750 Sure. 00:22:02.230 --> 00:22:12.310 And I couldn't help thinking about the connection between uh Bill McKay and one candidate in particular, this this election cycle, one uh Graham Plattiner in Maine. 00:22:12.390 --> 00:22:25.670 Now, they're very different backgrounds, very different candidates, but the idea of somebody sort of being plucked out of the political ether because they have the look and feel of the kind of candidate who can win an election. 00:22:25.990 --> 00:22:29.269 That is what was interesting to me about the connections there. 00:22:29.350 --> 00:22:37.670 And I just think that so much of what this movie talks about, as far as the shallowness of little campaigns, is still relevant in Nate's politics 50, something years later. 00:22:38.310 --> 00:22:38.630 Certainly. 00:22:38.790 --> 00:22:39.670 And I do want to stress. 00:22:40.070 --> 00:22:42.550 That my really good is very high praise. 00:22:42.950 --> 00:22:47.269 In fact, I was I was a little cautious about reviewing this movie. 00:22:47.350 --> 00:22:52.790 But then when I did review it, I re I remember saying to myself, boy, this is much better than I had remembered. 00:22:53.190 --> 00:22:59.350 And that when I when I was watching it, I must have been in the throes of watching just one spectacular 70s film after another. 00:22:59.509 --> 00:23:07.509 And since it wasn't, you know, kind of a masterpiece landmark type film, I sort of devalued it, I think, in in comparison with the others. 00:23:07.670 --> 00:23:18.390 But seeing it now sort of stand alone, as was as is true with so many 70s films, I think, it's its kind of inherent strengths stood out when it was there alone on its own feet. 00:23:18.550 --> 00:23:21.269 So I I really do think it's it's an excellent movie. 00:23:21.590 --> 00:23:32.550 So I I want to it's interesting you had that experience because I'd always liked this film a lot, but I didn't I can't say that I was, you know, um that I thought it was like a masterpiece or anything like that. 00:23:32.630 --> 00:23:37.670 But I mean when I watched it again, I liked it way more than the the times I seen it previously. 00:23:37.990 --> 00:23:47.269 And it it struck me as a much more subtle and much more complex film than I think it's popularly understood to be. 00:23:47.509 --> 00:23:54.310 So the the main thrust of this movie is that Robert Redford is is the son of a former governor of California. 00:23:54.630 --> 00:24:01.750 Um he is a public interest lawyer, you know, classic sort of 70s liberal I mean would be today even liberal sort of job. 00:24:02.230 --> 00:24:08.390 He gets recruited by Peter Boyle, who's wonderful in this movie, and we've seen, we've done a number of Peter Boyle films uh so far. 00:24:08.710 --> 00:24:10.390 Recruited to run for the US Senate. 00:24:10.710 --> 00:24:14.470 But basically, you know, as told from the beginning, you're not gonna win. 00:24:14.550 --> 00:24:19.110 You're running against this Republican named Crocker Jarman, who is very popular, but you can say whatever you want to say. 00:24:19.350 --> 00:24:32.310 And as the film goes along, McKay, who starts off by saying whatever he thinks and not worrying about the implications, realizes he can win and begins to trim his sails

in order to end up winning this election, which he does. 00:24:32.710 --> 00:24:37.350 Uh, which then leads to one of the great uh endings of a 70s movie uh we ever. 00:24:37.750 --> 00:24:49.029 Um and so that's basically the story is kind of uh it's about the workings of a campaign, but it's also about uh, if you will, the corruption of an idealistic politician in Robert Redford. 00:24:49.509 --> 00:24:50.070 Yes. 00:24:50.470 --> 00:24:56.310 I want to get to this in a second about how much we think Redford is, or Redford's character is a really serious politician. 00:24:56.470 --> 00:25:00.710 But before we do that, I want to mention Jeremy Larner, uh, who wrote the screenplay. 00:25:00.790 --> 00:25:06.390 Now, Jeremy Larner was a speechwriter for the uh the Gene McCarthy campaign, 1968. 00:25:06.470 --> 00:25:09.750 He wrote a book about uh that campaign called Nobody Knows. 00:25:09.910 --> 00:25:12.390 Um when I wrote my 68 book, I interviewed him. 00:25:12.550 --> 00:25:21.509 My my story about this is that uh we went on his on his porch, we talked for like an hour or so, and as I'm walking out, I just happened to look to my right and I noticed the fireplace. 00:25:21.590 --> 00:25:25.590 And on the fireplace, there is one thing, and that is his Academy Award. 00:25:25.910 --> 00:25:27.269 Just sitting there randomly. 00:25:27.430 --> 00:25:28.790 I said, Oh hey, let's academy award. 00:25:28.870 --> 00:25:29.830 It's like, oh yeah, you want to hold it? 00:25:29.910 --> 00:25:30.950 I'm like, yeah, it'd be kind of fun. 00:25:31.110 --> 00:25:32.630 I picked it up, had his name on it. 00:25:32.870 --> 00:25:33.590 Very cool. 00:25:33.910 --> 00:25:42.230 Um so Lerner uh wrote this campaign, and it's clear that it's influenced by his experience on the McCarthy campaign. 00:25:42.310 --> 00:25:51.509 But I think I have to just mention that his criticisms of McCarthy and a lot of the key criticisms of McCarthy are quite different from Bill McKay's character. 00:25:51.590 --> 00:25:55.350 In this movie, McKay, as I said, trimmed his sails in order to get elected. 00:25:55.590 --> 00:25:57.029 McCarthy didn't do any of those things. 00:25:57.110 --> 00:26:06.150 In fact, one of the big criticisms of McCarthy was that he didn't really try very hard, especially after the candidate Robert Kennedy was assassinated, to win the nomination at the convention in Chicago. 00:26:06.310 --> 00:26:09.670 Um he didn't do the things that a candidate does if they actually want to be president. 00:26:10.150 --> 00:26:15.430 And in fact, Lerner was very critical of McCarthy and was critical of him throughout the years afterward. 00:26:15.590 --> 00:26:23.269 I think McCarthy, you know, deserves a lot of a lot of credit for what he did in that campaign, but a lot of the criticisms of his lack of um um what's it called? 00:26:23.430 --> 00:26:27.990 Not stamina, his lack of enthusiasm uh for the campaign are fair. 00:26:28.550 --> 00:26:34.870 Um so it's interesting that but I clearly learner is basing this on his experience having worked on campaigns. 00:26:35.590 --> 00:26:35.830 Yes. 00:26:36.150 --> 00:26:41.269 But I think it's more about how the campaign gets overtaken by events. 00:26:41.509 --> 00:26:49.670 I don't think that you know, and we already talked about this offline that that that Redford is supposed to be uh a stand-in for McCarthy in any way. 00:26:49.990 --> 00:26:54.230 I think it's you know right down to the football, he's supposed to be more of a Kennedy-esque figure. 00:26:54.310 --> 00:26:54.790 Aaron Ross Powell Right. 00:26:54.950 --> 00:26:55.990 Kennedy-esque figure. 00:26:56.390 --> 00:26:58.870 But uh I mean why? 00:26:59.110 --> 00:27:00.070 Because he he's good looking? 00:27:00.230 --> 00:27:00.790 I mean, I guess. 00:27:01.269 --> 00:27:02.390 No, I think it's the looks. 00:27:02.710 --> 00:27:05.910 He has it's the name, the looks, the football. 00:27:06.070 --> 00:27:12.310 Um but also there was this one moment where he's campaigning and he kind of climbs on top of a car. 00:27:12.550 --> 00:27:14.870 I thought that was straight out of the Bobby Kennedy campaign. 00:27:15.110 --> 00:27:17.029 It was just I almost thought a flashback. 00:27:17.830 --> 00:27:18.630 You know, it's funny. 00:27:18.710 --> 00:27:21.509 There's there's moments in this film that are also out of the McCarthy campaign. 00:27:21.750 --> 00:27:25.830 There was a moment, I think, when he was in Indianapolis, perhaps. 00:27:26.470 --> 00:27:36.630 I forget where exactly, when he went to approach a bunch of um uh kids, black kids playing basketball, and they saw this whole gaggle of photographers and politicians and they ran away thinking they were in trouble. 00:27:36.950 --> 00:27:38.950 The same thing is done in this film as well. 00:27:39.190 --> 00:27:45.590 Um There's also I think the the scene where uh the candidate McKay gets punched in the face by somebody. 00:27:45.670 --> 00:27:48.230 I think that's happened to McGovern, perhaps at some point. 00:27:48.310 --> 00:27:52.390 Maybe it's chances are I mean, yeah, not George McGovern. 00:27:52.470 --> 00:27:54.150 Yeah, chance that he needs to alienate some people. 00:27:54.390 --> 00:27:59.190 Um but I you know, in general, I I I you're right, but I to me like the McKay character. 00:27:59.350 --> 00:28:16.150 Okay, what's interesting about you say about the Kennedy thing is that the criticism of McKay's character is that A, he kind of goes back from what he leap seems to believe in, but also his whole appeal is because as his father, played by Melvin Douglas, says, he's cute. 00:28:16.870 --> 00:28:17.110 Right? 00:28:17.509 --> 00:28:22.390 Yeah, I I think I have I think I have more fond of the character than you are. 00:28:22.550 --> 00:28:38.390 I think he's presented to us as a as a not as a maybe senatorial timber, but as a person of substance, that he's hardworking as a public interest lawyer and seems to know what he's doing

and seems to accomplish things if, as Peter Boyle says to him, on a relatively small scale. 00:28:38.630 --> 00:28:46.230 So I think he's presented to us as a well-intentioned person and a person of integrity and a person of some intelligence who gets things done. 00:28:46.390 --> 00:28:49.350 And we also, there's a nice off-screen backstory. 00:28:49.509 --> 00:28:52.310 He's kind of alienated from both of his parents, actually. 00:28:52.790 --> 00:28:59.990 Certainly from his father, the governor, but also even from his mother, who he says, I saw her last month, which is an interesting thing to say about your mom. 00:29:00.390 --> 00:29:00.550 Right. 00:29:01.350 --> 00:29:25.269 And so and I also think what the phrase he used about trimming his sails is certainly right, but it's I think it's a little I think he is somewhat manipulated by the Peter Boyle character in that regard, who kind of takes him by the hand, draws him into the campaign, and then and that he, I think, is somewhat responsible for tailoring him in that way. 00:29:25.430 --> 00:29:28.070 And I think I love Peter Boyle's performance in this movie. 00:29:28.230 --> 00:29:29.350 I want to talk a little bit more about it. 00:29:29.509 --> 00:29:34.630 But I think he is I think we like him as a character, but he's a very manipulative man. 00:29:34.950 --> 00:29:38.710 Let's get into this because the movie the movie begins is is wonderful. 00:29:38.870 --> 00:29:47.830 It is is basically election night, uh, one uh I assume two year or two before this race happens in California, with a candidate who has lost. 00:29:47.990 --> 00:29:50.310 Boyle's working for him along with Alan Garfield. 00:29:50.550 --> 00:30:00.950 And it's so interesting because what the what it does in the scene is it juxtaposes the scenes of the candidate and his family looking absolutely shell-shocked, disconsolate over losing. 00:30:01.029 --> 00:30:12.310 And meanwhile, the consultants, played by Boyle and Garfield, are talking about, you know, we won two out of three, and you know, we're gonna go on to the next race in California, and oh, let me get my golf club out of your car. 00:30:12.470 --> 00:30:13.990 They come across as soulless. 00:30:14.310 --> 00:30:14.630 Yes. 00:30:14.870 --> 00:30:21.269 Um, and they don't care about whether Kennedy wins or loses, as far as like from a policy standpoint, from an ideological standpoint. 00:30:21.430 --> 00:30:21.509 Right. 00:30:21.670 --> 00:30:23.029 It's all just a game to them. 00:30:23.190 --> 00:30:24.550 That's how they come across. 00:30:24.710 --> 00:30:30.310 And and certainly I think uh Garfield's character even more so than Boyle. 00:30:30.710 --> 00:30:42.630 And I think Garfield's character is supposed to be, let's use the word, homage to the political uh wizard David Garth, who also um took Ed Koch and dragged him from the left to the center. 00:30:42.710 --> 00:30:42.870 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:30:43.029 --> 00:30:43.190 Right. 00:30:43.750 --> 00:30:46.150 And won him and helped him win the mayor's race in New York. 00:30:47.350 --> 00:30:50.630 But of course, Alan Garfield, another great, great 70s player. 00:30:50.710 --> 00:30:53.509 You know, we've seen him in Nashville, we've seen him in the conversation. 00:30:53.750 --> 00:30:59.269 He always brings this incredible menacing intensity to any role that he has. 00:30:59.430 --> 00:31:01.990 And he it's a little more subtle here, but he does it here. 00:31:02.150 --> 00:31:03.670 He's he's a he's a treasure. 00:31:03.830 --> 00:31:06.710 I'm always happy when Alan Garfield shows up anywhere. 00:31:06.790 --> 00:31:08.630 Aaron Ross Powell He's one of my favorite creators in the film. 00:31:08.710 --> 00:31:10.870 And and it's it's interesting about him. 00:31:11.110 --> 00:31:13.269 He is even more cynical than Boyle. 00:31:13.430 --> 00:31:21.590 He's very coarse, he's very cynical, and he's like a perfect encapsulation of the modern, at least at that point, political campaign consultant. 00:31:21.670 --> 00:31:21.830 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:31:22.070 --> 00:31:22.550 Absolutely. 00:31:22.950 --> 00:31:26.950 And so the movie goes, all right with Boyle going to California trying to recruit McKay to run. 00:31:27.029 --> 00:31:29.990 And his his basically his thing to him is like, you can do whatever you want to do. 00:31:30.070 --> 00:31:32.070 You can say whatever you want to say, you're not gonna win. 00:31:32.230 --> 00:31:34.390 He gives him this matchbook and says, you lose. 00:31:34.550 --> 00:31:38.070 And and I think the assumption is there's no one can beat this Crocker-Jarman candidate. 00:31:38.390 --> 00:31:45.910 And so that that's how McKay runs initially, but then it becomes clear, and it's interesting the way it's presented to him. 00:31:46.150 --> 00:31:47.830 It's not like you have a chance of winning. 00:31:47.990 --> 00:31:52.070 It's presented as you're gonna get 30% of the vote and you're gonna embarrass yourself. 00:31:52.310 --> 00:31:53.830 Well, but you want to embarrass yourself? 00:31:53.990 --> 00:31:54.230 No. 00:31:54.310 --> 00:31:59.190 Then you need to actually start thinking about how you're the part of Boyle's seduction and manipulation. 00:31:59.750 --> 00:32:00.070 100%. 00:32:00.390 --> 00:32:00.550 Yes. 00:32:00.790 --> 00:32:11.190 Before I get into that, I just want to pause and say, Peter Boyle, you know, is I mean, there's Robert Redford as a star of the movie, but Peter Boyle is a star in this movie. 00:32:11.350 --> 00:32:17.670 And Peter Boyle often plays marginal and strange characters. 00:32:17.910 --> 00:32:23.190 And he he does seem to even come across as a person who is a little bit odd in in real life. 00:32:23.350 --> 00:32:28.150 And yet this is a straight character and a straight performance, and he pulls it off. 00:32:28.230 --> 00:32:40.070 I think it's probably the best representation of what he can do in the movies when he's not playing an overly drawn character that's kind

of a Peter Boyle character type. 00:32:40.150 --> 00:32:46.470 And so I love this movie for giving us that that opportunity to see Peter Boyle be a great actor. 00:32:46.870 --> 00:32:47.269 I agree. 00:32:47.430 --> 00:32:49.110 I mean, we saw him in in Eddie Coyle. 00:32:49.190 --> 00:32:53.590 He was great in that film, but he plays a low-level hood who uh gets Eddie Coyle killed. 00:32:53.750 --> 00:32:58.550 We saw him in uh The Taxi Driver plays a very strange The Wizard, exactly. 00:32:58.870 --> 00:33:11.190 Um I mean I we we talked about this at one point, we didn't discuss it in this podcast, but the uh the movie Joe, he plays uh um like a working-class um vigilante, I guess, for lack of a better term. 00:33:11.670 --> 00:33:14.950 And um and this film is a straight performance from Boyle. 00:33:15.110 --> 00:33:15.670 Yeah, he's great. 00:33:15.910 --> 00:33:16.550 He's great in it. 00:33:16.630 --> 00:33:16.790 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:33:17.029 --> 00:33:20.150 It's not a typical Peter Boyle performance, but it shows the depth. 00:33:20.230 --> 00:33:27.750 And I'm sure I mentioned this when we talked about Taxi Driver, you know, who was the best man at Peter Boyle's wedding, John Lennon, you know, that has a lot of people. 00:33:27.910 --> 00:33:28.310 I didn't know that. 00:33:28.710 --> 00:33:29.029 Yes. 00:33:29.269 --> 00:33:32.790 That's uh so I so here's what's interesting about this. 00:33:32.870 --> 00:33:34.310 So he tries to recruit McKay. 00:33:34.470 --> 00:33:37.269 He doesn't have to do much to get him on board with the campaign. 00:33:37.509 --> 00:33:42.150 It's it's interesting to me that you don't see a lot of hemming and hawing from Redford as you want to run. 00:33:42.310 --> 00:33:46.550 And there's a really interesting moment, I think we're I'd say you see hemming. 00:33:47.509 --> 00:33:49.910 Maybe not a lot of hemming and hawing, but a little bit of hemming. 00:33:50.230 --> 00:33:51.910 Maybe some hemming, but not a ton. 00:33:52.230 --> 00:33:58.710 And what's interesting is there's a great scene with him and his wife played by uh Karen Carlson, who, by the way, is really great in this film. 00:33:58.870 --> 00:34:01.590 And she says, Well, now he's gonna have to uh register to vote. 00:34:01.750 --> 00:34:01.830 Yeah. 00:34:02.070 --> 00:34:06.710 And also she says something that, well, he has the power she says about McKay. 00:34:07.110 --> 00:34:10.230 And I I it's not really spelled out. 00:34:10.469 --> 00:34:12.469 And a lot of things in the movie, by the way, are not spelled out. 00:34:12.550 --> 00:34:16.389 A lot of things in the movie are very subtly done and are and are they're not explained. 00:34:16.469 --> 00:34:18.710 And I never I that line always stuck with me. 00:34:19.110 --> 00:34:20.150 What does she mean by that? 00:34:20.309 --> 00:34:24.949 And I my sense of it was that she meant he has this power, this charisma. 00:34:25.190 --> 00:34:36.469 He has this sex appeal, and that's what will help him if you and which by the way is also a little bit of a veiled attack on him, which we will learn more about later in the film. 00:34:36.949 --> 00:34:37.190 Yes. 00:34:37.349 --> 00:34:41.670 And also, you know, even though he and his father are estranged, he has the built-in name recognition. 00:34:41.750 --> 00:34:41.909 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:34:42.070 --> 00:34:42.309 He does. 00:34:42.630 --> 00:34:46.309 And he's very factor. 00:34:46.550 --> 00:34:51.109 I think he has name automatic name recognition, I think he has charisma, and he's attractive. 00:34:51.269 --> 00:34:55.670 I mean, those things are not necessarily all going together, but he has that it's a great package. 00:34:55.909 --> 00:34:57.750 But I want to get back to the point I was making about Boyle. 00:34:57.989 --> 00:35:04.629 So Boyle recruits him by saying, you lose, but then as you observed, and it's about a third of the way into the picture. 00:35:04.949 --> 00:35:10.869 I think if you were doing those kind of plot point graphs, I think that this is where Act One ends and Act Two begins. 00:35:11.029 --> 00:35:11.109 Yes. 00:35:11.349 --> 00:35:12.629 He's won the nomination. 00:35:12.789 --> 00:35:15.909 And then Boyle says to him, Well, have you seen these numbers? 00:35:16.069 --> 00:35:20.710 You know, you're and that's when he says, you're not gonna lose, you're gonna get crushed. 00:35:20.949 --> 00:35:26.629 And he says, if this continues, and and and Redford McKay says, you know, well, I could just drop out. 00:35:26.710 --> 00:35:28.069 And he says, you know, you can't drop out. 00:35:28.149 --> 00:35:29.909 You're the Democratic nominee for United States Senator. 00:35:30.230 --> 00:35:32.389 He literally says this to him, then he wins the nomination. 00:35:32.710 --> 00:35:32.949 Yes. 00:35:33.670 --> 00:35:35.349 But that's where the manipulation comes in. 00:35:35.509 --> 00:35:37.509 He gets him in with the free pass. 00:35:37.670 --> 00:35:39.509 You're not gonna win, you can do whatever you want. 00:35:39.670 --> 00:35:45.190 And then when he gets the nomination, then he circles back and says, but you don't want to be embarrassed. 00:35:45.509 --> 00:35:45.670 Right? 00:35:45.829 --> 00:35:54.069 You want to and so in that sense, it's Boyle more than I think McKay or Redford who's who's the who's trimming the sails here. 00:35:54.309 --> 00:36:01.269 That's what I think is so great about this film, because the obvious way to play this is for him to say, hey, look, you're only down by 15 points. 00:36:01.349 --> 00:36:03.909 You can win this thing if you do X, Y, and Z. 00:36:04.069 --> 00:36:04.869 He doesn't say that. 00:36:05.029 --> 00:36:06.230 He plays on his pride. 00:36:06.389 --> 00:36:09.269 He says, you're going to look, you're going to be embarrassed. 00:36:09.509 --> 00:36:13.109 You're going to lose in a way that is going to, you know, discredit you. 00:36:13.269 --> 00:36:13.429 Yes. 00:36:13.750 --> 00:36:22.389 And, you know,

as a guy who has a battle with his father, who won numerous campaigns in California, I mean, it I think he's playing on that sense. 00:36:22.469 --> 00:36:24.710 He doesn't want to be humiliated, he doesn't want to be embarrassed. 00:36:24.869 --> 00:36:27.670 He wants to, you know, do a better job than or not. 00:36:27.989 --> 00:36:31.909 He doesn't want to look like the sort of fail son of his dad. 00:36:32.149 --> 00:36:38.309 And I think it's a very subtle way that he gets him to kind of begin to think more about how can I actually win the race. 00:36:38.389 --> 00:36:38.949 Aaron Powell Yes. 00:36:39.029 --> 00:36:44.869 And I do think it's not that Redford's character, Matt McKay, is not, is not devious or shallow in that way. 00:36:45.029 --> 00:36:47.349 I think he just gets dragged along. 00:36:47.589 --> 00:36:56.389 And so and finally there's that moment, I think before a debate or something, where uh Boyle says to him, You got to change your tie, and Redford says, you know, why? 00:36:56.469 --> 00:36:58.149 And then he says, Oh, never mind. 00:36:58.309 --> 00:36:59.269 You know, he's like, I know. 00:36:59.429 --> 00:37:01.109 You must have a reason why I have to wear a different tie. 00:37:01.269 --> 00:37:04.949 So just give you the different tie, and I'll put on I'm done asking you all these stupid questions. 00:37:05.109 --> 00:37:14.149 I'm just I'm trying to do what you're saying because obviously the the the momentum of the movie is they get closer and closer to actually having a chance. 00:37:14.629 --> 00:37:15.029 Yes. 00:37:15.349 --> 00:37:24.069 So but this gets something in I I I I want to bring this up now because it's it's a point that has uh really bothered me in this this watching of the film. 00:37:24.389 --> 00:37:27.029 So let me tell a quick story about this for a moment. 00:37:27.269 --> 00:37:33.589 Um I don't know if you've ever heard this story, but Dan Quayle, when he was the vice president, you know, for George uh H.W. 00:37:33.750 --> 00:37:37.349 Bush in 1988, when he was picked out of obscurity. 00:37:37.750 --> 00:37:44.710 And he said about this movie that this is one of his favorite films, and it inspired him to go into politics. 00:37:45.509 --> 00:37:52.069 Which uh it suggests that Dan Quayle completely misunderstood what this film was uh saying. 00:37:52.469 --> 00:37:55.989 And it's in a way it's it's it's it's it's fascinating. 00:37:56.149 --> 00:38:02.389 He thinks this movie is like uh a positive exploration of politics when it's a negative exploration of politics. 00:38:02.549 --> 00:38:06.469 And of course, you know, Quayle had his appeal was partly because he looked a little like Robert Redford. 00:38:06.710 --> 00:38:07.670 He was a good-looking guy. 00:38:07.750 --> 00:38:07.909 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:38:08.069 --> 00:38:13.589 Like like Claude Raines in Casablanca, I'm shocked, shocked to learn that Dan Quayle misunderstood this movie. 00:38:14.469 --> 00:38:18.949 I know, but it's it's I think it's sort of fascinating that he didn't understand this was a this was a satire. 00:38:19.109 --> 00:38:19.190 Yeah. 00:38:19.509 --> 00:38:31.269 But one thing about this movie that is that that to but to my point I'm trying to get here, to get to, um, is that the arc of the film is that Redford starts off and he is willing to say whatever he wants to say. 00:38:31.349 --> 00:38:34.789 And he goes, he has this meeting with a bunch of reporters and he says, like, what do you think about bussing? 00:38:34.869 --> 00:38:35.670 And he goes, I support it. 00:38:35.750 --> 00:38:37.670 And they're all the reporters are like, Wow, look at this guy. 00:38:37.989 --> 00:38:39.269 Yeah he's not messing around. 00:38:39.349 --> 00:38:39.509 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:38:39.670 --> 00:38:42.469 Pro-bussing, pro-abortion, pro-pro-busing pro-abortion. 00:38:44.549 --> 00:38:45.429 Exactly. 00:38:45.829 --> 00:38:51.349 And he gives this speech at this convention for Democrats, and it's a very uncomfortable moment. 00:38:51.509 --> 00:38:54.869 Brilliantly handled by Michael Ritchie, by the director, wonderfully edited. 00:38:55.029 --> 00:39:02.149 We used to have like the coughing in the background, the twinkling of the glasses, and and it's and he's having a hard time seeing the audience because of the bright lights. 00:39:02.309 --> 00:39:10.469 And he gives this kind of very underwhelming speech about, you know, we we need to uh uh new challenges 1972, and I want you to give me the benefit of the doubt. 00:39:10.629 --> 00:39:13.349 I'm gonna watch that, and then I watch the speech he gets at the end of the movie. 00:39:13.589 --> 00:39:13.670 Right. 00:39:13.989 --> 00:39:19.269 And there's not a huge difference between what he says in the beginning and what he says at the end. 00:39:19.349 --> 00:39:24.949 Aaron Powell, but there's a huge difference in the way he says it, and there's a huge difference in the way he's shot. 00:39:25.269 --> 00:39:32.389 They really they go all triumph of the will in the second, you know, they've got the swelling soundtrack to when he does it. 00:39:32.549 --> 00:39:36.230 The th the looks and the faces of the people in the audience, like, oh, they're so moved by this. 00:39:36.309 --> 00:39:42.629 Aaron Powell Yes, and also his framing from below and on the side, the camera's just loving this guy in the second speech. 00:39:42.789 --> 00:39:44.629 And you know, it's very it is, it's very awkward. 00:39:44.710 --> 00:39:48.389 It's it's really good work uh the way they they shoot those two scenes. 00:39:48.549 --> 00:39:53.589 It's not just it's the con obviously the lesson of the movie is the content is irrelevant, it's what it looks like. 00:39:54.149 --> 00:39:54.309 Right. 00:39:54.549 --> 00:40:04.309 But that's kind of what's interesting, because you could this is what got me thinking about this it's kind of an indictment, less so of the political process and more of voters. 00:40:04.549 --> 00:40:09.190

There is an element here where Werner is poking fun at the voters. 00:40:09.269 --> 00:40:11.670 Aaron Powell Because really go ahead. 00:40:12.069 --> 00:40:17.429 That's why I was just a that's why I think you're being a little too harsh on on McKay and on on Redford's character. 00:40:17.670 --> 00:40:29.509 I think the real villain in the piece is the voters, that if you know McKay's to have a chance, he's got to do all this nonsense uh if he if he's going to and you know, this is what all politicians personally tell themselves. 00:40:29.670 --> 00:40:35.349 I will do this because if I do this, then I can win something and then I can actually do the things I want to do. 00:40:35.589 --> 00:40:40.949 But to quote John Castavin, it's of course they never do, but but that's what that's the story they tell themselves, right? 00:40:41.109 --> 00:40:46.789 I have to jump through these hoops, even though it's ridiculous, because I have these important things that I want to accomplish. 00:40:47.269 --> 00:40:50.389 So here's what's interesting about the point you just made. 00:40:50.629 --> 00:41:03.269 The again, the arc of the film is that is that McKay is idealistic and he has all these ideas of what he wants to do, and he'll say whatever he has to say, and he and he trims his sails, use that expression again, in order to get elected. 00:41:03.429 --> 00:41:10.469 But I don't think that's actually really true, because you don't really see him as somebody who is all that substantive. 00:41:10.629 --> 00:41:15.109 He is speaking in platitudes at the beginning of the movie, he's speaking in platitudes at the end of the movie. 00:41:15.269 --> 00:41:18.149 The difference, as you put it, is the response he gets from the audience. 00:41:18.309 --> 00:41:26.069 And what I think is interesting is that this idea that like he is corrupted by the process, I'm not so sure that's really true, actually. 00:41:26.230 --> 00:41:31.109 It would be true if he was a more serious substantive person, but I don't think he really is. 00:41:31.429 --> 00:41:34.469 So this is where we'd we disagree a bit. 00:41:34.869 --> 00:41:43.829 Maybe it's just that it happens too fast, but I think when we're introduced to him at the start of the movie, he's presented to us as a serious person who gets good things done. 00:41:44.069 --> 00:41:55.029 He's in several situations, he's juggling chores, he's in command of a small courtier of helpers who are working on uh three or four public interest cases at the same time. 00:41:55.190 --> 00:42:01.750 He seems to know which buttons to push and what needs to get done and these confrontations with the people that he's dealing with, it's just very small scale. 00:42:01.909 --> 00:42:07.509 And he boasts of, you know, putting in 20-hour days and and and and being you know thrilled with it. 00:42:07.670 --> 00:42:08.629 And he says he's happy. 00:42:08.710 --> 00:42:10.869 And Boyle says, you know, well, clams are happy, right? 00:42:11.349

--> 00:42:11.829 Clams are happy. 00:42:12.069 --> 00:42:12.149 Right. 00:42:12.789 --> 00:42:20.629 So I do think we're invited to see him as a person of substance, even if it's very fleeting at the very beginning of the movie. 00:42:20.710 --> 00:42:23.670 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Well, but that's but you're I think you're confling two different things there. 00:42:23.829 --> 00:42:28.469 He can be a person who gets things done, who has like a certain agenda items. 00:42:28.549 --> 00:42:31.989 Doesn't mean that he's somebody who has lots of ideas about politics. 00:42:32.309 --> 00:42:34.230 It's why he probably wasn't involved in politics. 00:42:34.389 --> 00:42:39.109 And so I don't I don't get the impression that I guess about a different way. 00:42:39.349 --> 00:42:50.710 It's not as though he comes across as somebody who is like talk like but like to go back to McCarthy analogy, McCarthy talked to a lot of serious issues in the campaign in 68, and he continues to do that until he dropped out of the race in Chicago. 00:42:51.589 --> 00:42:57.509 McKay's character is his is sort of platitudinous at the beginning and platitudinous at the end. 00:42:57.670 --> 00:43:05.269 It's not as though I get the maybe I'm being a little harsh on him, but I do feel like there's an element here where he's kind of a bit of a lightweight as a politician. 00:43:05.349 --> 00:43:05.509 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:43:05.670 --> 00:43:11.109 Yeah, I just think this is one of our productive disagreements because I I I like the character. 00:43:11.349 --> 00:43:16.789 He's obviously renounced everything his father stands for and renounced, you know, politics. 00:43:16.869 --> 00:43:22.710 And and even in the in the first meeting, one of Redford's affiliates says to Peter Boyle, politics is bullshit. 00:43:22.789 --> 00:43:24.789 And Boyle says, Oh, thanks. 00:43:24.869 --> 00:43:25.829 I was wondering what it was. 00:43:26.710 --> 00:43:29.349 Which was a nice turn of phrase. 00:43:29.509 --> 00:43:41.670 But Redford has, you know, in a way renounced the fakery of politics, renounced many of the privileges that must have come with being his father's son, is fully estranged from his father. 00:43:41.829 --> 00:43:48.069 And yet you see him, we I think we're presented to him as an effective do gooder, if on a small scale. 00:43:48.230 --> 00:43:49.109 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: 100%. 00:43:49.429 --> 00:43:50.309 Agree with that, yes. 00:43:50.789 --> 00:43:52.230 But then you go lightweight. 00:43:52.309 --> 00:44:06.069 Aaron Ross Powell Well I guess my point is that I I don't feel as though the movie really makes a compelling argument that this was somebody who would who had a lot of interesting political ideas about politics. 00:44:06.149 --> 00:44:06.549 Trevor Burrus Right. 00:44:06.949 --> 00:44:08.309 He does not have interesting ideas about politics. 00:44:08.469 --> 00:44:12.230 Trevor Burrus, maybe lightweight is unfair, but he's not somebody who would and maybe that's the point. 00:44:12.309 --> 00:44:16.149 He hadn't this is not somebody who spent a lot of time thinking about what he could achieve as a politician. 00:44:16.309 --> 00:44:17.429 We see that especially at the end. 00:44:17.589 --> 00:44:17.750 Right. 00:44:17.909 --> 00:44:18.149 Right? 00:44:18.389 --> 00:44:19.989 And so you see that throughout the film. 00:44:20.069 --> 00:44:26.389 And and I think there's something to be said for the fact that, like, you know, Redford understands what he's doing is kind of vacuous. 00:44:26.710 --> 00:44:26.789 Yes. 00:44:27.029 --> 00:44:27.190 Right. 00:44:27.509 --> 00:44:34.949 The wonderful scene in the back of the car where he d he pretends to give this speech and he's like, you know, uh ta what is it he says? 00:44:35.029 --> 00:44:37.909 He says about the um all you white honkies out there. 00:44:38.069 --> 00:44:38.389 Like he's. 00:44:40.069 --> 00:44:40.389 A little bit. 00:44:40.710 --> 00:44:40.949 Right. 00:44:41.190 --> 00:44:46.149 He understands what he's doing is kind of um uh silly. 00:44:46.549 --> 00:44:48.469 He gets it, but he still does it. 00:44:48.949 --> 00:44:55.509 And there are moments when he tries to sort of break out of that that mold at the at the end of his debate with his opponent. 00:44:55.989 --> 00:45:00.710 Um maybe for a brief moment in the speech he gives at the end, but not really. 00:45:00.949 --> 00:45:08.469 He I mean, even in that moment in the debate when he kind of breaks out of like his mold, he's still just kind of talking about platitudes. 00:45:08.710 --> 00:45:10.069 I mean, maybe talking about things no one talks about. 00:45:10.149 --> 00:45:11.269 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Late entry. 00:45:11.589 --> 00:45:12.869 I mean, that comes late in the movie. 00:45:12.949 --> 00:45:13.349 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: It does. 00:45:13.750 --> 00:45:13.909 It does. 00:45:14.309 --> 00:45:32.710 And his advisors, both of them, you know, Boyle and Garcot, are absolutely apoplectic that he could actually raise pointed issues of substance at the end of the debate that had gone extremely well for him because he had pretty much said nothing or said whatever platitudes they he he was supposed to say throughout. 00:45:32.949 --> 00:45:36.549 So there is that original person at least peeking out there. 00:45:36.949 --> 00:45:37.349 I guess. 00:45:37.509 --> 00:45:42.710 I mean, I think what's great about that moment, especially is that when he leaves the stage, you know, Garfield wants to tear him a new one. 00:45:42.789 --> 00:45:44.149 He's so furious of him for doing this. 00:45:44.309 --> 00:45:48.710 And then McKay's dad comes in and who up to that point had not really endorsed him. 00:45:48.789 --> 00:45:50.469 And he endorsed him and says, You were great. 00:45:50.629 --> 00:45:54.069 And Redford looks turns to him and says, I don't know if they even heard what I was saying. 00:45:54.309 --> 00:45:57.109 And his dad, Melvin Douglas, says it doesn't matter. 00:45:57.509 -->

00:45:57.670 Yes. 00:45:57.909 --> 00:46:00.069 And Melvin Douglas It's a fantastic moment. 00:46:00.549 --> 00:46:01.989 It's wonderful throughout healing. 00:46:02.069 --> 00:46:05.750 It's a small role, just three or four scenes, but he's excellent in all of them. 00:46:05.909 --> 00:46:07.909 And it's a charming backstory, right? 00:46:07.989 --> 00:46:18.710 Because Melvin Douglas was married to Helen Cahagan Douglas, a three-term congresswoman who famously lost the her Senate race to a scorched earth campaign via our close personal friend Richard Nixon. 00:46:18.949 --> 00:46:22.389 So you have, you know, and Melvin Douglas was a known New Dealer. 00:46:22.549 --> 00:46:32.949 So to have him kind of pop up as this rough and tumble political governor of California, it's it's it has its it has its additional charm there, but he is he is wonderful in this small role. 00:46:33.349 --> 00:46:43.909 I think I guess that I just to put a bow on this, I think what I find what I makes this so compelling to me is I think Redford's arc in the film is not maybe what you'd expect in a satire like this. 00:46:44.149 --> 00:46:51.190 It's uh he's a little more complex of a character and a little more of a character at f who is who you can be critical of. 00:46:51.349 --> 00:46:51.509 Right? 00:46:51.670 --> 00:46:59.190 I mean, I think in a movie like this, I think the obvious thing to do is but to treat McKay as like sort of a pure guy who gets corrupted by this, or you know. 00:46:59.750 --> 00:47:01.909 And I don't think that's really what this film is is trying to say. 00:47:02.069 --> 00:47:03.750 I don't think that's what this movie is about. 00:47:03.989 --> 00:47:09.349 I think there is a criticism here of Redford's character that he really hasn't thought about this stuff. 00:47:09.429 --> 00:47:14.789 And there's a certain arrogance in thinking he should be a senator when he really hasn't spent time thinking about these issues. 00:47:15.109 --> 00:47:16.869 Yeah, I mean it's a 70s movie, right? 00:47:16.949 --> 00:47:18.869 So our artists are flawed. 00:47:19.190 --> 00:47:19.509 Absolutely. 00:47:19.909 --> 00:47:24.549 A hundred percent, which is again, I think a movie today would have very different presentation of this character. 00:47:24.789 --> 00:47:28.949 Let me just, before we get too far afield, let me just say something about Robert Redford. 00:47:29.109 --> 00:47:34.710 I think this might be I don't know his best performance, but certainly in the top two or three of his best performances. 00:47:34.869 --> 00:47:37.269 I think this is a perfect character for him to play. 00:47:37.509 --> 00:47:39.909 And I think, and we've we've talked about him in the past. 00:47:40.069 --> 00:47:45.349 I think that he there's an element of where he's a really good-looking guy, he's a great movie star, he's not always a great actor. 00:47:45.509 --> 00:47:50.789 I think in this movie, this he he does a delivers a great, nuanced acting performance. 00:47:51.029 --> 00:47:58.789 Yes, and but it I think uh a challenge for Redford or a challenge for Redford's reputation is he makes it look so effortless. 00:47:59.190 --> 00:47:59.589 Absolutely. 00:47:59.989 --> 00:48:02.629 And he's and he is an extremely handsome man. 00:48:02.789 --> 00:48:11.269 So you have this extremely handsome man, a movie star, and he's just inhabiting this role, but there's some really serious acting going on here, and it's almost unnoticeable. 00:48:11.429 --> 00:48:18.309 And I I think you're right to call it out as as one of s one of his better performances, and he was also a very important force behind the movie. 00:48:18.469 --> 00:48:27.670 I mean, Russell was a person of substance, and he wanted, he was interested in these themes, and he wanted to make this movie made, and it is, you know, he had a big hand in putting the putting the project together. 00:48:27.829 --> 00:48:48.069 And in fact, it was in engaging a lot of the uh political journalists that he was w working with or interviewing or doing things with in developing the candidate that he started to learn of the Watergate scandal long before it broke as a national news story because all the journalists knew about these things that they were kind of chatting away about it, uh even if it wasn't a big news story at the time. 00:48:48.149 --> 00:48:51.029 And that's what got him on the trail of all the president's men. 00:48:51.349 --> 00:48:51.909 Right, right. 00:48:52.069 --> 00:48:57.109 I think the other thing too is that um again, this is a flawed character, right? 00:48:57.269 --> 00:48:57.509 Yes. 00:48:57.909 --> 00:48:59.750 He has a doesn't have a great relationship with his wife. 00:48:59.909 --> 00:49:05.909 Like it's interesting, she has a photographer come over and take pictures of of their of their house. 00:49:06.149 --> 00:49:06.389 Right. 00:49:06.549 --> 00:49:17.589 Uh she's kind of appears to be uh enjoying the attention of the campaign as as he is, but she but he he criticizes her for it and gets very upset with her about it. 00:49:17.829 --> 00:49:30.469 And uh even more interesting, of course, he has this uh which is never really spelled out, but he's clearly having an affair with a woman who is who's who, by the way, her role is it's it's it the cast list it says groupie. 00:49:30.789 --> 00:49:34.149 Uh and she is somebody who follows around the campaign candidates. 00:49:34.230 --> 00:49:40.549 You see him early on, you see her talking to him, uh, you know, whispering in his ear, and then later you see them coming out of a hotel room together. 00:49:40.629 --> 00:49:41.029 Aaron Powell Yes. 00:49:41.269 --> 00:49:42.469 So there's a lot going on there. 00:49:42.549 --> 00:49:44.230 Let's break them, let's break them in two. 00:49:45.269 --> 00:49:54.230 The scene where he comes home and she has the camera crew there for Parade Magazine, I think it really confronts him with the shallowness of what he's doing. 00:49:54.469 -->

00:49:59.349 I mean, he eventually apologizes to her for berating her, you know, she sheds a few tears. 00:49:59.509 --> 00:50:02.389 I thought that was a decent moment for them as a couple. 00:50:02.549 --> 00:50:06.629 But I really, I don't think it was selfish, like, you know, I'm the center of attention and you're not. 00:50:06.869 --> 00:50:12.309 I think it was a real confrontation with, oh my God, look what look what we're doing, look what we've become. 00:50:12.389 --> 00:50:12.549 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:50:12.710 --> 00:50:12.789 Yes. 00:50:12.949 --> 00:50:14.230 And he takes it out on her to some extent. 00:50:14.549 --> 00:50:14.629 Yes. 00:50:14.869 --> 00:50:14.949 Yes. 00:50:15.429 --> 00:50:20.069 And so their relationship is a complex one. 00:50:20.230 --> 00:50:24.629 She's very interested in being the spouse of the senator. 00:50:24.710 --> 00:50:24.869 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:50:24.949 --> 00:50:25.109 Right. 00:50:25.509 --> 00:50:30.309 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: This little snippet at the end of the movie where she talks about wanting to live in Georgetown and get a place in Georgetown in Washington. 00:50:30.469 --> 00:50:30.869 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yes. 00:50:30.949 --> 00:50:32.069 And she's also very attractive. 00:50:32.149 --> 00:50:37.670 And you know, she'll be like a salon hostess in Washington, and kind of socialite type. 00:50:37.829 --> 00:50:40.469 And there are many such people in history. 00:50:40.710 --> 00:50:43.750 And so you know, I think that matters a little complex. 00:50:43.909 --> 00:50:46.549 But the other issue you mentioned about the affair he has. 00:50:46.629 --> 00:50:54.869 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Wait, before you get into the affair, can we just mention the fact that the op there is a scene in the beginning of the film where they're supposed to go to this fundraiser, he doesn't want to go, he says we should walk on the beach. 00:50:55.190 --> 00:50:58.549 She yells at him, and then they end up making up by having sex. 00:50:59.989 --> 00:51:08.549 The end of the film, it's set in the same room in the bedroom, and uh they don't even speak. 00:51:08.869 --> 00:51:15.349 And it is very clear that there is a huge wedge has been driven between them by this campaign. 00:51:16.149 --> 00:51:18.230 And there's multiple symmetries in this movie. 00:51:18.389 --> 00:51:20.389 So I like the two bedroom scenes symmetrically. 00:51:20.629 --> 00:51:21.989 And you already mentioned the opening of the movie. 00:51:22.149 --> 00:51:29.989 The movie essentially opens and closes in in the same setting of the wake of a campaign, one fail, one success. 00:51:30.149 --> 00:51:32.869 But the it's a real attractive bookend. 00:51:33.190 --> 00:51:37.829 But I've always thought that she kind of thought, well, he was under a lot of stress during the campaign. 00:51:38.069 --> 00:51:40.629 Well, things will get better once we're in Washington. 00:51:41.109 --> 00:51:52.149 Well, I mean, I don't think so because he has, as the, as we

used to say back in the day, a zipper problem, uh, which is that he is basically having uh an affair with this groupie. 00:51:52.549 --> 00:51:54.869 And I again I mentioned this earlier. 00:51:54.949 --> 00:51:58.629 I get the impression this is not the first time this has been a problem in their marriage. 00:51:58.869 --> 00:52:00.149 And there's just two things about that. 00:52:00.309 --> 00:52:00.469 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:52:00.549 --> 00:52:04.389 No, you're running, you're running, you gotta back that up in a screenplay. 00:52:04.789 --> 00:52:07.269 Well, I think when she says he has the power. 00:52:07.429 --> 00:52:10.869 I think she's talking about his his charisma and his appeal to women. 00:52:11.029 --> 00:52:13.589 I think that's kind of what she's kind of hinting at there. 00:52:14.549 --> 00:52:16.549 But she's a very attractive person. 00:52:16.629 --> 00:52:17.190 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: She's beautiful. 00:52:17.589 --> 00:52:18.629 And she's also beautiful. 00:52:19.029 --> 00:52:30.710 Presented to us as a capable professional, uh, as a photographer, and she seems kind of confident if they wanted- I mean, there were there would have been other ways to present her if they weren't scoring. 00:52:30.789 --> 00:52:31.750 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: That's fair. 00:52:31.989 --> 00:52:32.389 That's fair. 00:52:33.029 --> 00:52:34.230 Maybe I'm just extrapolating. 00:52:34.309 --> 00:52:43.429 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Because I think the point is is more subtle, as our close personal friend Henry Kissinger used to say, uh, power is the ultimate aphrodisiac. 00:52:43.509 --> 00:52:49.589 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: And so as he kind of gets involved in this campaign, I mean, he has the affair with this with this groupie. 00:52:49.750 --> 00:52:55.750 I had I was very upset because I thought she was kind of stylized to look a bit like Gloria Steinem. 00:52:55.909 --> 00:52:56.789 Maybe that was my imagination. 00:52:57.589 --> 00:52:58.469 I had a similar thought, actually. 00:52:58.629 --> 00:52:59.349 That's until you said that. 00:52:59.509 --> 00:52:59.589 Yes. 00:52:59.750 --> 00:53:04.710 But she was Well, in 1972, that look would have been more clearly associated with Gloria Steinem. 00:53:04.869 --> 00:53:08.389 And as an enormous admirer of Gloria Steinem, I was kind of irritated. 00:53:08.629 --> 00:53:13.750 Steinem was very active politically, and she was active in the McGovern campaign, about that same time. 00:53:13.909 --> 00:53:19.429 And so I was a little upset that they might have been throwing some shade at her. 00:53:19.989 --> 00:53:20.389 Oh, interesting. 00:53:20.710 --> 00:53:21.349 I hadn't thought about that. 00:53:21.429 --> 00:53:21.750 That's interesting. 00:53:22.230 --> 00:53:23.109 Subtly in the movie. 00:53:23.190 --> 00:53:25.190 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: But we see this multiple times. 00:53:25.349 --> 00:53:35.349 There's a a woman who wants him to autograph her breasts or bra or something, and another woman kind of in a pre-Monica Lewinsky moment kind of flashes her panties at him. 00:53:35.589 --> 00:53:47.909 And it's and I think that's all designed to say when you're a powerful political figure, these opportunities will be presented to you. 00:53:48.069 --> 00:53:55.509 And it can almost be-and so I couldn't decide whether I thought the movie was being subtle with that, because we never see them in action. 00:53:55.670 --> 00:54:12.069 We see them spending a lot of We see them come out of a hotel room and he's late for a meeting, and it's pretty clear that that's no, there are she's in like four different scenes, and they're always closer together, especially in that last one you mentioned, than two strangers should be. 00:54:12.309 --> 00:54:14.469 But we don't ever see them have a conversation. 00:54:14.629 --> 00:54:18.710 We don't ever see them kind of in the sack, you know, in any literal way. 00:54:18.869 --> 00:54:22.069 And I I had mixed feelings about this, so I was curious to know what you thought. 00:54:22.389 --> 00:54:32.469 Because either the movie was doing it subtly, or the movie was afraid of taking the character on that much. 00:54:33.269 --> 00:54:38.949 So if that was true, the last part, I don't think they would have showed the two of them coming out of the hotel room. 00:54:39.109 --> 00:54:45.029 Because up to that point, you could maintain some, you know, plausible deniability that something's happening between the two of them. 00:54:45.429 --> 00:54:46.869 At that point, you cannot, right? 00:54:47.109 --> 00:54:48.789 It is fair, they're both coming out of a hotel room. 00:54:48.949 --> 00:54:51.269 It's fairly obvious that what just what just took place. 00:54:51.589 --> 00:55:04.309 So I do think that the point of this is to present McKay as a as a more complex figure and morally ambiguous figure. 00:55:04.469 --> 00:55:06.549 And that's what, again, I I go back to what I said earlier. 00:55:06.629 --> 00:55:12.949 I think there's that's a big part of this movie, is that is that Redford's character is somebody who is not black and white. 00:55:13.190 --> 00:55:13.349 Right? 00:55:13.429 --> 00:55:15.909 This is this is and I think it could have been connected that way. 00:55:16.149 --> 00:55:16.469 Yeah, go ahead. 00:55:16.710 --> 00:55:19.109 But it's it is 1972 out there. 00:55:19.269 --> 00:55:26.389 And I I don't think this is this would have been coded as monumental a transgression as it would be today. 00:55:26.549 --> 00:55:30.469 And this part of this reminded me of the 1979 Alan Alden movie. 00:55:30.629 --> 00:55:31.190 Wait a minute, wait a minute. 00:55:32.629 --> 00:55:33.029 Yeah, yeah. 00:55:33.109 --> 00:55:33.190 Okay. 00:55:33.589 --> 00:55:37.190 But there the affair is overt, and it'd be that's a big part of the movie. 00:55:37.429 --> 00:55:41.909 And of course, there, you know, Joe comes around to the end and we're and and we love him again. 00:55:42.149 --> 00:55:43.670 But but that's interesting.

00:55:43.750 --> 00:55:56.789 You said it because I would actually take a maybe slightly opposite point of view, which is that, you know, now people having affairs, it's not really as I think it's it's taken as seriously, or maybe because of post post-Clinton Lewinsky. 00:55:56.869 --> 00:55:59.509 But you know, go back to like 1988 and Gary Hart, right? 00:55:59.589 --> 00:56:02.309 He jumped out of the camp a campaign because he was allegedly having an affair. 00:56:02.389 --> 00:56:02.549 Yes. 00:56:02.789 --> 00:56:06.389 I think I think that it was people knew these things happened, I'm sure. 00:56:06.549 --> 00:56:09.269 They certainly knew it happened with certainly rumors of that with with John F. 00:56:09.349 --> 00:56:14.869 Kennedy, but to have it sort of in your face, I think it does take uh Redford down a notch. 00:56:15.029 --> 00:56:18.549 I also want to mention one other point too, which is the scene where he meets Natalie Wood. 00:56:18.629 --> 00:56:18.789 Yeah. 00:56:19.109 --> 00:56:22.789 And like the attraction between the two of them is palpable, right? 00:56:23.029 --> 00:56:26.230 I mean, she's it helps that it's Natalie Wood and Robert Redford, but yes. 00:56:26.710 --> 00:56:29.750 It 100% helps that it's Natalie Wood and Robert Redford. 00:56:30.309 --> 00:56:33.349 I love this scene because they are just vibing off of each other, right? 00:56:33.670 --> 00:56:42.230 There's this guy trying to talk Natalie Wood, and she's just kind of like, you know, not interested because she's clearly enamored with Robert Redford, and he's clearly enamored with her. 00:56:42.789 --> 00:56:50.469 And it just again, it plays up this idea that he really kind of gets off on the attention that he gets from being a political candidate. 00:56:50.789 --> 00:56:54.949 But again, I think this speaks to our subtle disagreement about the character. 00:56:55.190 --> 00:57:01.509 I thought I saw that more as an illustration of the seduction of power, right? 00:57:01.670 --> 00:57:13.349 That when you're in that situation and you're suddenly, you know, have these opportunities made it to you, because most people would not have Natalie Wood flirting with them backstage with a fundraiser. 00:57:13.750 --> 00:57:24.549 And, you know, I like to think of myself as a decent fellow, but that's gotta be these things have to be temptations that are presented to people that that they have to confront one way or the other. 00:57:25.109 --> 00:57:31.029 But I don't think that like you sudden he suddenly gets off on the power and all of a sudden starts thinking with the group again hitting on Natalie Wood. 00:57:31.109 --> 00:57:32.629 I think that there's something that probably happened before. 00:57:32.710 --> 00:57:32.869 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:57:32.949 --> 00:57:33.989 That's why I was saying earlier. 00:57:34.149 --> 00:57:42.469 I do think that like there's some subtle reference to the fact that this is not the first time that he is he is strayed, I guess is what it comes down to. 00:57:42.549 --> 00:57:43.029 Aaron Powell Yeah. 00:57:43.109 --> 00:57:59.750 And why I think you're overreading that element is because I think if the movie wants to be a rumination on what are the consequences of getting into this, then one of the consequences are this is what you become. 00:57:59.909 --> 00:58:03.909 You become a person who is, you know, you're like a like a baseball player, right? 00:58:04.069 --> 00:58:11.750 You're you're you're you're young, you're traveling in cities, and you have scores of opportunities that normal people would never be presented with. 00:58:11.829 --> 00:58:20.710 Or a rock musician, or uh, you know, a high-powered politician, suddenly there's a you are swimming in a different sea than you were previously. 00:58:21.029 --> 00:58:36.549 But isn't there like a subtle notion here that politics attracts a certain kind of individual, a kind of individual who really enjoys the kind of attention that they I mean, I look, I don't think it's really I'm going to limb and saying that to be a politician you have to be a bit of a narcissist. 00:58:36.710 --> 00:58:38.309 I mean, I think that's not that's not really a stretch. 00:58:38.469 --> 00:58:57.589 And I do think that like there is and again, maybe I'm overreading it, but I do think there's a notion here that you know Bill McKay is maybe idealistic and he maybe worked with, you know, farm workers and so forth, but he really got off on the attention that he got from this, and that this this is something that really drove him to want to do this. 00:58:58.149 --> 00:58:58.469 Yes. 00:58:58.629 --> 00:59:01.750 But again, actually, that drove him to want to win. 00:59:01.989 --> 00:59:02.069 Right. 00:59:02.230 --> 00:59:02.309 Sure. 00:59:03.269 --> 00:59:04.309 That's actually the more important point. 00:59:04.629 --> 00:59:10.149 Didn't drive him against the race, but once he was in the race, the attention he's receiving makes him say, you know what? 00:59:10.309 --> 00:59:11.349 I wouldn't mind winning this thing. 00:59:11.509 --> 00:59:11.589 Right. 00:59:11.829 --> 00:59:13.509 I wouldn't mind being a full-time senator. 00:59:13.589 --> 00:59:14.789 Aaron Powell I think that's right. 00:59:14.949 --> 00:59:22.069 But I do think on the on whether he had strayed before, I would need the movie to throw me at least one bone on that. 00:59:22.309 --> 00:59:25.909 I mean, you think you have it with the he's what he has the power. 00:59:26.230 --> 00:59:39.429 I would want the Trevor Burrus, it's not just that, but yes, yes, yes, I would want them to have a little conversation in that teary bedroom confrontation where she says something like, you know, we've gone through problems like this before, or you know, anything. 00:59:40.069 --> 00:59:42.230 No, that's too much to come on, there's too much exposition. 00:59:42.309 --> 00:59:45.750 There's I do I think that it's it's subtly hinted at. 00:59:45.909 --> 00:59:48.869 I do, I I

mean, that's what I think I that's what I like about this film. 00:59:49.029 --> 00:59:52.549 And and that gives us a good segue talking about Michael Ritchie who directed this movie. 00:59:52.629 --> 00:59:54.710 I think this is a brilliantly directed film. 00:59:54.949 --> 01:00:04.469 The fact that we're having this conversation, I think speaks to how well this film is put together and how many, how much subtlety there is in the presentation of these characters. 01:00:04.869 --> 01:00:09.349 Yes, but I want to know how much of the greatness of this movie is Michael Ritchie. 01:00:09.589 --> 01:00:20.149 We'll never answer this question, and how much of the greatness of this movie is the combination of the script, the actors, and Victor Kemper, whose work here is monumentally great. 01:00:20.309 --> 01:00:24.309 This film we haven't really talked about, the fact that it's presented to us in very documentary style. 01:00:24.629 --> 01:00:31.429 Yes, and the work is astonishing and impeccable and so naturalistic and really beautiful. 01:00:31.589 --> 01:00:34.549 And there's there's, I don't think there's a clumsy shot throughout. 01:00:34.710 --> 01:00:39.670 And obviously the director is in charge, but Richie's, you know, I've always been puzzled by his career. 01:00:39.829 --> 01:00:49.269 We talked about this a little offline, where he has these four films from 69 to 75 that are kind of all 70s film winners. 01:00:49.509 --> 01:00:57.509 And then he did not go on to have a career we would associate with other notable directors of the era. 01:00:57.989 --> 01:01:07.190 Well, the four films are Downhill Racer, which is a fantastic film, also starring um Robert Redford, Prime Cut and The Candidate both came out in 72, and then Smile. 01:01:07.509 --> 01:01:10.149 Now you left out, I will note the bad news bears. 01:01:10.389 --> 01:01:10.549 I did. 01:01:10.789 --> 01:01:11.269 And that's fair. 01:01:11.589 --> 01:01:21.269 Uh you also left out, I think Richie's greatest achievement, which is the 1985 movie Fletch, which is one of the great movies of the 1980s, in my, in my humble opinion. 01:01:21.589 --> 01:01:25.429 Sure, but Prime Cut, you know, that's that's Gene Hackman and Lee Marvin. 01:01:25.589 --> 01:01:27.269 Uh I realize that. 01:01:29.190 --> 01:01:30.149 It's Chevy Chase. 01:01:30.549 --> 01:01:31.589 But there isn't there is an M. 01:01:31.750 --> 01:01:33.269 Emmett Walsh cameo in that film. 01:01:33.589 --> 01:01:36.629 I mean, I'm joking, but I actually do love that movie when I saw it when I was a kid. 01:01:36.710 --> 01:01:38.869 It's one of those movies I in the 80s that I really enjoyed. 01:01:39.109 --> 01:01:39.989 But yeah, no, you're right. 01:01:40.149 --> 01:01:47.909 Richie's career after uh that smile is is pretty underwhelming, for lack of better term. 01:01:47.989 --> 01:01:48.149 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 01:01:48.309 --> 01:01:58.469 And it's all and again, I always want to be cautious when we're criticizing the work

of professionals here because you know what I just said is he was the director of four terrific movies, you know, which is four more. 01:02:00.230 --> 01:02:00.309 Yes. 01:02:01.670 --> 01:02:05.349 So I'm not, you know, I'm not, you know, they just say, well, where's the rest of your work, Mr. 01:02:05.429 --> 01:02:05.750 Ritchie? 01:02:05.829 --> 01:02:06.069 Trevor Burrus, Right. 01:02:06.309 --> 01:02:16.949 But it's still there's something enigmatic about the idea that he was associated with these significant films of this important era, and then didn't continue in that vein. 01:02:17.190 --> 01:02:20.469 Uh I don't I don't really I'm not really well versed in in the rest of his career. 01:02:20.549 --> 01:02:20.710 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 01:02:20.789 --> 01:02:22.230 I I that's you know totally fair. 01:02:22.389 --> 01:02:26.309 And I think the one thing I'll say, you you mentioned how much is this screenplay and how much is is the editing. 01:02:26.389 --> 01:02:28.469 I mean, first of all, the screenplay is is brilliant. 01:02:28.710 --> 01:02:29.750 The editing is brilliant. 01:02:29.909 --> 01:02:34.389 But again, I mean, you know, ultimately the director, you know, gets credit for putting together the film. 01:02:34.469 --> 01:02:43.269 And and I think the decision to make this a more documentary-style film, that there's a lot of use of uh, I guess, a steady cam, the way some of these shots are framed, you mentioned earlier. 01:02:43.349 --> 01:02:54.549 I think the book ending of the speech gets the beginning to be to the end, the way that he that that Redford is presented in such a more effective and and almost um what's the word I'm looking for? 01:02:54.710 --> 01:02:58.389 Author not authoritarian, authoritative way. 01:02:58.789 --> 01:03:01.190 Uh and it's a i it's really well done. 01:03:01.349 --> 01:03:04.389 And it's and I love the the choice to put the music in there, swelling. 01:03:04.789 --> 01:03:06.149 It's it's really kind of brilliant, actually. 01:03:06.230 --> 01:03:08.710 Aaron Powell Yeah, and it has real energy and momentum. 01:03:08.949 --> 01:03:15.109 Um it's just a question for me of, you know, he directed Redford in Downhill Racer. 01:03:15.429 --> 01:03:18.389 My hunch is that Redford brought the project to him. 01:03:18.629 --> 01:03:20.549 He did not bring the project to Redford. 01:03:20.710 --> 01:03:26.549 And Redford's, you know, it's like uh the Warren Beatty problem where you have the powerful producer star there. 01:03:26.789 --> 01:03:32.469 You know, I I would suspect he's calling some shots, you know, literally and figuratively along the way as well. 01:03:32.629 --> 01:03:35.349 And the talent attached is just stupendous. 01:03:35.509 --> 01:03:39.509 Um but again, yeah, the director's director is is at the helm. 01:03:39.670 --> 01:03:47.589 And so I'm not taking the movie away from Richie so much as saying it's it's a mystery to me how he had how he did these things. 01:03:47.750 --> 01:03:52.389 And then I w I guess I uh the fairer word to use is drift a bit. 01:03:52.710 --> 01:03:59.109 I mean, you know, you have to it's hard, it's a tough business, and you have to get work, and there's nothing wrong with that. 01:03:59.349 --> 01:04:08.469 But uh the fact is, as a director, it seems to me, looking over the later balance of his career, he was a capable director for hire. 01:04:09.029 --> 01:04:11.589 Which is definitely a director with something to say. 01:04:12.149 --> 01:04:16.069 Uh a lot of the directors we've talked about on this podcast have had that experience. 01:04:16.309 --> 01:04:30.149 Um we I think we attractioned uh Francis Fort Coppola, who I think obviously his his um best work is some of the best work ever put on film uh in American cinema. 01:04:30.309 --> 01:04:35.029 But his later work is not as as exciting or as as good as the early stuff. 01:04:35.190 --> 01:04:37.429 Um we talked about some other folks as well. 01:04:37.509 --> 01:04:41.029 I'm trying to think uh well, I mean, well, the contrast is Sidney Lumet. 01:04:41.190 --> 01:04:46.389 And I didn't mention, by the way, one of the films I did see of his recently, For the Devil Knows You're Dead, which is a monumentally great film. 01:04:46.710 --> 01:04:50.469 And he's a direct he's a director who was pretty much consistently good from beginning to end. 01:04:50.629 --> 01:04:57.269 You're right, but a lot of these directors, it's really hard to maintain, to do that many good films one after the other, right? 01:04:57.429 --> 01:05:00.629 I mean, the Beatles made great moves beginning to end. 01:05:00.789 --> 01:05:03.190 They are the exception in the music business, right? 01:05:03.349 --> 01:05:05.909 Most musicians have a few duds in there. 01:05:06.309 --> 01:05:09.750 But I do want to give still one more shout out to the work of Kemper here. 01:05:09.989 --> 01:05:11.429 He, I was thinking about this a lot. 01:05:11.670 --> 01:05:13.750 We we must have seen him three or four times already. 01:05:13.909 --> 01:05:15.269 I think he did Eddie Coyle. 01:05:15.509 --> 01:05:15.750 Yes. 01:05:15.989 --> 01:05:22.469 Um, and uh he was one of the many DPs on Mikey and Nicki, and there's probably at least one other that he was involved in. 01:05:22.629 --> 01:05:30.149 And it occurred to me that there are about a dozen just great, great DPs working in this era. 01:05:30.309 --> 01:05:33.349 And and so and they just populate so many of our films. 01:05:33.829 --> 01:05:34.230 Absolutely. 01:05:34.389 --> 01:05:38.389 We we often go over the same people over and over again in in the in the cinematography. 01:05:38.629 --> 01:05:46.149 Um we have to just get to the end of this movie because the end is really Well, we can't get to the end because we haven't done justice to the whole Melvin. 01:05:46.389 --> 01:05:46.789 We talked about it. 01:05:46.949 --> 01:05:48.629 Oh my god, you know what's so funny you said this? 01:05:48.710 --> 01:05:52.069 I

literally was looking at my notes and I was like, oh, we have to meet the Melvin Douglas line also. 01:05:52.549 --> 01:05:54.309 And I was like, I you're right. 01:05:54.629 --> 01:06:05.670 Okay, so Melvin Douglas plays the former governor who's the father of Bill McKay, and word leaks out that he's going to endorse um uh McKay's opponent, Crocker Jarman. 01:06:05.829 --> 01:06:07.029 By the way, let's give a shout to Don Porter. 01:06:07.109 --> 01:06:08.230 He plays Crocker Jarman. 01:06:08.309 --> 01:06:08.949 He's great in this. 01:06:09.429 --> 01:06:10.149 Oh, yes, he is. 01:06:10.469 --> 01:06:15.509 And uh his character is a perfect example of like a Republican politician of the 1970s. 01:06:15.750 --> 01:06:30.869 Like so and there's a great moment, by the way, where he's he where Jarman is out on the trunk uh stump talking to people, and he meets this person and doesn't know who he is, and he quickly turns his head to his aide who whispers in his ear who he is, and then he turns back perfectly like, Oh yeah, Bill, it's great to see you. 01:06:31.349 --> 01:06:33.670 It's such a great little moment in the film. 01:06:33.750 --> 01:06:39.670 Um he is wonderful, and and you know, it's almost as if they got some you know, that he retired from politics. 01:06:40.069 --> 01:06:40.789 And took this role. 01:06:41.269 --> 01:06:41.509 100%. 01:06:41.989 --> 01:06:42.389 100%. 01:06:42.629 --> 01:06:43.269 I totally agree. 01:06:43.670 --> 01:06:52.069 So they get to the So anyway, so there's word that McKay might endorse him, Crocker Jarman, so his son goes to talk to him. 01:06:52.309 --> 01:06:56.230 And up to this point, he did not want his father involved at all in the campaign. 01:06:56.309 --> 01:07:08.949 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yes, this was a very specific sore spot, even from the very first meeting with Peter Boyle's character, where he's, you know, Peter Boyle mentions his father and he says, My father, you know, I getting my father involved in this. 01:07:09.029 --> 01:07:11.349 And Boyle says, if that's what you want, fine. 01:07:12.230 --> 01:07:14.309 And so this is very, very sensitive. 01:07:14.389 --> 01:07:15.750 They are obviously a strange. 01:07:15.829 --> 01:07:18.069 She had obviously rejected his father's life. 01:07:18.149 --> 01:07:31.190 And then, yes, there's this crisis emerges where there's an Evan Zanovac column that's going to say that he's going to come out and and give an endorsement to his opponent, which would be problematic to say the least. 01:07:31.589 --> 01:07:32.230 To say the least. 01:07:33.109 --> 01:07:38.230 And he goes to meet with him, and they're sitting around drinking beers, and he says, Do you want anything? 01:07:38.389 --> 01:07:43.909 And Redford says, anyone running for the Senate has to want something. 01:07:44.230 --> 01:07:47.750 It's such a brilliantly delivered line. 01:07:47.989 --> 01:07:49.269 And of course, he does want something. 01:07:49.429 --> 01:07:53.750 He wants his endorsement, which he doesn't get until he shines in the debate, interestingly enough. 01:07:53.909 --> 01:07:54.629 He does not get in. 01:07:54.869 --> 01:07:55.109 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 01:07:55.190 --> 01:08:01.349 But he first wants him to suppress the rumor that he's gonna support the other guy, and he does not have a lot of things. 01:08:01.509 --> 01:08:02.549 Which he does, which he does. 01:08:02.629 --> 01:08:02.789 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 01:08:02.869 --> 01:08:10.869 But that's that line is so perfect because you know they're presumably talking about a lunch order, but you know but that beautiful line. 01:08:11.429 --> 01:08:11.589 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 01:08:11.829 --> 01:08:12.629 Every anyone wants to be able to do that. 01:08:12.789 --> 01:08:15.190 Anyone running for the sense of has to want something. 01:08:16.230 --> 01:08:17.670 Yeah, it's it's a great, it's a great moment. 01:08:17.989 --> 01:08:27.989 There is also a wonderful moment later in the film where Redford meets with this union boss that's a sort of meeting brokered by his father, and he's really insulting to the union boss, actually. 01:08:28.230 --> 01:08:42.069 Really which actually made me think a little bit like of Bobby Kennedy, who was very skeptical of the unions in general, and had very had a very bad relationship with with Muffly, except for like the UAW with most of the union heads who would, at least in 68, all endorsed um um Humphrey. 01:08:42.310 --> 01:08:46.310 So and again, like you you kind of get this. 01:08:46.470 --> 01:08:54.390 It's funny because his father is like the politician who who you know had, I assume had won multiple terms, who was like a hero in California. 01:08:54.710 --> 01:08:59.670 And he's just as cynical, if not more, than the people around Redford. 01:09:00.149 --> 01:09:00.869 Absolutely. 01:09:01.109 --> 01:09:11.590 And that meeting, you know, was also that's probably the most cynical bit in the entire film because they are really dislike each other. 01:09:11.909 --> 01:09:18.470 I took him as uh the head of the California Teamsters or something, and he looked to be like the head of the California Teamsters. 01:09:18.710 --> 01:09:25.510 And they do not like each other, they do not get along, but they both make the calculation that they're better off being on that stage together. 01:09:25.670 --> 01:09:29.590 And it's that that is the most profoundly cynical exchange. 01:09:30.149 --> 01:09:34.229 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Redford's a great line goes, I go, I think you know, the union guys say we have a lot in common. 01:09:34.309 --> 01:09:35.989 And Redford goes, I don't think we have shit in common. 01:09:36.309 --> 01:09:36.470 Yes. 01:09:36.949 --> 01:09:38.949 And um but they do. 01:09:39.109 --> 01:09:40.630 They both want to win, right? 01:09:40.869 --> 01:09:41.989 That's what they have in common. 01:09:42.149 --> 01:09:50.869 And they both end up showing up for this you know, uh uh rally in which the the guy the union guy

basically gives him the the stamp of approval. 01:09:51.109 --> 01:09:51.189 Yes. 01:09:51.829 --> 01:09:53.109 Redford is happy to take it. 01:09:53.269 --> 01:09:55.269 I mean, this is again the cynicism of politics. 01:09:55.829 --> 01:09:57.430 And also a very well-cast character. 01:09:57.590 --> 01:09:59.670 That guy kind of freaked me out. 01:10:03.029 --> 01:10:06.149 So let's get to the end because I think like this is a very cynical film. 01:10:07.430 --> 01:10:09.029 Because it's one more line, he wins. 01:10:09.510 --> 01:10:09.590 Yes. 01:10:09.989 --> 01:10:13.989 And Douglas says to him something like, Congratulations. 01:10:14.389 --> 01:10:15.189 You're a politician. 01:10:15.269 --> 01:10:16.630 Aaron Ross Powell You're a politician now. 01:10:18.630 --> 01:10:21.349 And he says it as a compliment, do we think? 01:10:21.590 --> 01:10:24.069 Or is he is he kind of sticking it in there a little bit? 01:10:24.869 --> 01:10:25.670 I think you can do both. 01:10:25.909 --> 01:10:27.269 I mean, I think so too. 01:10:27.590 --> 01:10:28.630 I mean I think so too. 01:10:29.029 --> 01:10:38.710 Because these are these people are estranged, and they're and I don't think that um he was ever really proud of his son, Redford, or what he did with his life. 01:10:38.949 --> 01:10:45.750 And when they he takes him out hunting and he shoots a rabbit and Redford recoils from it, these the these guys don't get along either. 01:10:45.909 --> 01:10:47.989 And I think that both things are going on. 01:10:48.229 --> 01:10:51.750 One is I think that Melvin Douglas is impressed, right? 01:10:51.909 --> 01:10:57.750 Anybody can run for a Senate, but to win the win and become a senator, that's an accomplishment. 01:10:57.829 --> 01:11:00.630 And that's what really gets Douglas' character to turn around. 01:11:00.869 --> 01:11:03.909 He wants to be associated with a winner, you know, as much as the next guy. 01:11:04.069 --> 01:11:04.229 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 01:11:04.309 --> 01:11:12.869 Well, he but I think his earlier decision to to endorse him after the debate is because he thinks he won the debate, which it appears that he does, and he thinks he's gonna win. 01:11:13.109 --> 01:11:17.909 So actually what's interesting is that he doesn't really get behind his son until he thinks that he's going to actually prevail. 01:11:18.069 --> 01:11:18.229 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 01:11:18.470 --> 01:11:18.789 Exactly. 01:11:19.109 --> 01:11:21.109 Um doesn't want to be embarrassed either. 01:11:21.189 --> 01:11:21.349 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 01:11:21.590 --> 01:11:21.829 Yes. 01:11:21.989 --> 01:11:26.069 But so when he says so it's it's two things going on at the same time. 01:11:26.229 --> 01:11:31.510 When he says you're a politician now, I think that's I think that's that he's impressed. 01:11:31.670 --> 01:11:34.630 But I also think that he's sticking it to him because he's sticking to him. 01:11:35.189 --> 01:11:38.470 You used to, you know, give me the finger behind my

back for being a politician. 01:11:38.630 --> 01:11:40.550 Well, now you're a politician. 01:11:41.109 --> 01:11:41.349 Right. 01:11:41.510 --> 01:12:01.189 So I think that what's interesting about this film is that there's so many lines and things in this movie that really have sort of double meanings or that have the obvious meaning, you know, the outward meaning of him saying you're a politician, which is true, but also there's a there's an under underneath thing going on there as well, which is often how political rhetoric works, right? 01:12:01.670 --> 01:12:03.829 I mean, I I'm just gonna use an example from the news right now. 01:12:03.989 --> 01:12:09.829 I think it's interesting, is this, and I don't want to get into judging it, but there was this thing recently with John Osloff Center from from Georgia. 01:12:09.989 --> 01:12:13.590 He referenced this woman, Natalie Harp, who works for for Donald Trump. 01:12:13.670 --> 01:12:16.389 And he brought it up and he created this sort of firestorm. 01:12:16.550 --> 01:12:18.630 Now, when he did that, he knew what he was doing. 01:12:18.710 --> 01:12:21.909 He was trying to get attention for himself as somebody who was going to challenge Trump. 01:12:22.069 --> 01:12:24.229 He wanted to probably get pissed off at him, which they did. 01:12:24.309 --> 01:12:27.829 He wanted to raise his profile because he wants for president in 2028, which is what happened. 01:12:27.989 --> 01:12:30.710 So there's like double meanings to all this. 01:12:30.869 --> 01:12:33.829 There's what he said, and there's what he was trying to achieve by what he said. 01:12:34.069 --> 01:12:38.069 And a lot of this movie, I feel like, is really about the text and the subtext. 01:12:38.229 --> 01:12:49.109 And that's why I kind of think I love it so much, because there are so many different ways that you can interpret why people do the things that they do, and both for political reasons, but also for personal reasons. 01:12:49.349 --> 01:12:53.909 Um, and there's lots of different ways to interpret why Redford, this is I think his character is so complex. 01:12:53.989 --> 01:12:55.109 Why does he run in the first place? 01:12:55.189 --> 01:12:56.229 Why does he want to be senator? 01:12:56.389 --> 01:12:57.909 Don't do do his goals change? 01:12:58.069 --> 01:12:59.750 Does his mindset change? 01:12:59.909 --> 01:13:02.869 Does he get off on the attention of being a Senate candidate? 01:13:03.029 --> 01:13:12.229 I mean, I I to me that's what that line, but just in general, this film, there's just a lot of depth to this movie, more than I think you would usually get a political satire. 01:13:12.630 --> 01:13:12.869 Yeah. 01:13:13.109 --> 01:13:17.590 I think that uh they uh that it operates on on those multiple levels. 01:13:18.229 --> 01:13:23.349 I think political science often operate as kind of poking fun at politics. 01:13:23.670 --> 01:13:27.989 And this movie does that, but I don't know that it's the I mean, uh what do you think? 01:13:28.069 --> 01:13:30.149 It's at the focal point of the movie. 01:13:31.590 --> 01:13:40.069 I think it is more about the way in which the process chews people up. 01:13:40.710 --> 01:13:41.109 Yeah. 01:13:41.349 --> 01:13:41.750 Yeah. 01:13:41.989 --> 01:13:42.710 I think that's right. 01:13:43.349 --> 01:13:49.670 But that requires a a a more benign view of Redford's underlying character than than you than you walk around with. 01:13:50.069 --> 01:13:58.550 And I think we see that when he meets some of his kind of co-workers from the beginning of the movie, near the end of the movie, and they're kind of disgusted with him. 01:13:58.710 --> 01:14:01.989 And I think that implies that at least in their eyes, he's changed. 01:14:02.149 --> 01:14:02.789 Aaron Ross Powell No. 01:14:03.590 --> 01:14:04.869 But only one is disgusted. 01:14:05.029 --> 01:14:10.149 Another one, remember, he meets him after his rally and says, You're really getting you're doing something here. 01:14:10.309 --> 01:14:13.590 I think you're making a you're getting a uh um to people. 01:14:13.670 --> 01:14:14.710 They're listening to what you're saying. 01:14:14.789 --> 01:14:22.470 Aaron Powell But he also says, I know the other guys are disgusted with you, but I realize that you have to do these stupid things in order to achieve these things. 01:14:22.869 --> 01:14:23.349 Right, right. 01:14:23.590 --> 01:14:32.789 I mean, again, I think that the point we mentioned earlier that there there is the scene at the speech at the end with the swelling music and the faces of the people in the crowd who are inspired by this. 01:14:32.949 --> 01:14:43.349 I really do think that it is a very subtle stab at the electorate and how easily they can be swayed by, you know, sort of bread and circuses. 01:14:43.590 --> 01:14:44.149 Aaron Powell Yes. 01:14:44.309 --> 01:14:46.949 And the crowds at Jarman's rallies. 01:14:47.189 --> 01:14:50.630 I thought the movies took some cheap shots at those crowds, actually. 01:14:50.710 --> 01:14:51.510 Aaron Powell Yeah. 01:14:52.229 --> 01:14:55.670 Did they feel a little 1930s Germany to you a bit? 01:14:55.909 --> 01:15:01.989 Trevor Burrus Well, also they they used a lot of not kind of Hollywood beautiful extras. 01:15:02.069 --> 01:15:03.430 Uh there's some of that. 01:15:03.590 --> 01:15:09.109 But do you remember the shot of him like with his picture behind him and sort of standing between the eyes of the picture? 01:15:09.510 --> 01:15:13.269 I mean it it is a little bit like harsh on the Republicans, I would say. 01:15:13.989 --> 01:15:14.470 Certainly. 01:15:14.789 --> 01:15:15.109 Certainly. 01:15:15.750 --> 01:15:15.909 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 01:15:16.149 --> 01:15:25.269 The movie where it does have a certain political uh slant, although again, it's very kind of bitter and certainly not idealistic in any way. 01:15:25.349 --> 01:15:25.510 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 01:15:25.750 --> 01:15:25.909 No. 01:15:25.989 --> 01:15:33.189 And

so that gets us to the end of the film, which of course is that election night, it's now apparent that that McKay is going to win. 01:15:33.349 --> 01:15:38.550 He is sitting in his hotel room looking shell-shocked, for lack of a better term. 01:15:38.789 --> 01:15:51.750 His wife is talking about getting a place in Georgetown, and he's just sort of looking vacantly ahead, and he pulls Boyle out from, you know, they're going down to give his like his victory speech, pulls him out to the um elevator into another sip. 01:15:51.989 --> 01:15:55.989 And there's a great moment in the elevator, too, where this where this bus boy says to him, You're not supposed to be here. 01:15:56.149 --> 01:15:56.309 Yeah. 01:15:56.470 --> 01:16:00.630 And I thought it was like a very like unsubtle one of saying, like, you're not supposed to be a senator. 01:16:00.869 --> 01:16:02.389 This is not supposed to happen. 01:16:02.550 --> 01:16:10.710 Uh, he pulls him into this, into this abandoned, like, empty hotel room, and utters one of the great lines of 70s cinema. 01:16:10.869 --> 01:16:13.909 He says to says to to Peter Boyle, what do we do now? 01:16:14.069 --> 01:16:14.309 Yes. 01:16:14.550 --> 01:16:14.869 He won. 01:16:15.029 --> 01:16:16.069 What do we do now? 01:16:16.470 --> 01:16:24.470 And I mean, it's it's an incredibly cynical moment because it really does suggest that like that thought had never crossed his mind up until this point. 01:16:24.630 --> 01:16:26.149 Now, you could read it different ways, right? 01:16:26.229 --> 01:16:27.750 You could read it saying, you didn't think he was going to win. 01:16:27.829 --> 01:16:29.189 So he's like, what the hell do we do now? 01:16:29.269 --> 01:16:29.349 Right. 01:16:29.590 --> 01:16:38.630 Or it could be, I didn't think I didn't really think about what happens if I win, and I don't, I don't didn't really care about that on this campaign because the campaign was more about just winning over voters. 01:16:38.789 --> 01:16:40.869 So what the fuck are we supposed to do in this situation? 01:16:41.189 --> 01:16:46.309 Yeah, it's, you know, it's a very attractive 70s ending because he wins, but he's lost. 01:16:46.550 --> 01:16:49.829 I mean, you know, he doesn't he he doesn't know what he's doing. 01:16:49.989 --> 01:17:01.829 He doesn't know the he's chased this victory for the entire picture, and now that he's achieved it, it doesn't have perhaps the thrill that he thought it would have. 01:17:02.069 --> 01:17:09.189 Or has he given up so much to get there that, you know, it is what what what of substance have we actually achieved? 01:17:09.349 --> 01:17:17.829 Aaron Ross Powell But I read it I a little-I mean to me it's sort of it's an in it's an indictment of the whole political campaign process. 01:17:18.229 --> 01:17:18.389 Yes. 01:17:18.710 --> 01:17:25.109 That the process of running for office has nothing to do with what happens when you actually get into office. 01:17:25.349 --> 01:17:25.510 Yes. 01:17:25.750 --> 01:17:25.829 Right? 01:17:25.989 --> 01:17:29.510 And there's various lines that he repeats in the movie about you know, it's weird. 01:17:29.670 --> 01:17:33.670 He says that to have two people decide the fate for 20 million people. 01:17:33.750 --> 01:17:35.109 That's not really what senators do, to be honest. 01:17:35.269 --> 01:17:37.269 That's not what governors do, what presidents do. 01:17:37.510 --> 01:17:42.630 Like it's there is like an exaggeration a little bit about all that, because that's what we do in politics, right? 01:17:42.789 --> 01:17:47.430 We we politicians always kind of over-emphasize what they can accomplish once they get into office, right? 01:17:47.510 --> 01:17:50.309 And they try to-and that's how they convince people to vote for them and support them. 01:17:50.550 --> 01:18:02.869 And um that there uh to me, that's like sort of the whole movie kind of be summed up in that sense of like just sort of suggesting that modern politics and modern campaigns are devoid of substance. 01:18:03.510 --> 01:18:10.869 And it's also I think there's something about how Peter Boyle's character, he's done with him, right? 01:18:10.949 --> 01:18:13.269 He's gonna move, he's gonna move on to the next campaign. 01:18:13.430 --> 01:18:19.029 And so he was his, you know, his Sherpa through this entire experience. 01:18:19.189 --> 01:18:24.229 Um, and now I think he's I don't think he's gonna go to the Senate with him and be his chief of staff or anything like that. 01:18:24.389 --> 01:18:26.470 That's not that's not what he does for a living. 01:18:26.789 --> 01:18:31.269 And so he's really uh kind of abandoned at the end. 01:18:31.670 --> 01:18:34.069 I mean he's a senator and all, which is just you know marvelous. 01:18:34.149 --> 01:18:35.590 It's a really good job, I think. 01:18:35.829 --> 01:18:43.750 But but he had he it was Peter Boyle who, you know, in collaboration with Alan Garfield, who got him across the finish line. 01:18:43.829 --> 01:18:43.989 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 01:18:44.069 --> 01:18:51.269 And and to your point, like there's a brief conversation about policy early on, but it's more about how do you answer certain questions, not to embarrass off. 01:18:51.590 --> 01:18:55.670 There's never any discussion inside the campaign about policy issues. 01:18:55.829 --> 01:18:55.989 Right. 01:18:56.229 --> 01:18:59.670 It's all about, you know, what tie do I wear? 01:18:59.829 --> 01:19:01.029 How do I look on television? 01:19:01.189 --> 01:19:06.069 You know, there's a moment when uh because dad says, I hear you have the the best advanced people in the business. 01:19:06.229 --> 01:19:06.309 Yes. 01:19:06.630 --> 01:19:06.789 Right. 01:19:07.109 --> 01:19:09.750 Advanced people have the least substantive job on a campaign. 01:19:09.909 --> 01:19:18.309 Their job is to go to the next city, to make sure that like the hotels are taken care of, that like, you know, the the dressing room has all the right stuff it's supposed to have, that like the crowd's gonna be there. 01:19:18.470 --> 01:19:19.909 They're not they're not policy people. 01:19:20.149 --> 01:19:22.389 And there really isn't any kind of discussion of substance. 01:19:22.470 --> 01:19:26.149 It's all about the specifics of how do you run for for office. 01:19:26.389 --> 01:19:36.470 Um and that is, again, I think that this movie is really satirized in the entire experience, but but I think it this this movie um casts a wide net in as far as it's of its criticisms. 01:19:36.869 --> 01:19:37.430 Yes. 01:19:38.069 --> 01:19:38.470 Yeah. 01:19:38.630 --> 01:19:44.470 I mean, uh again, from both the politicians to the consultants, uh to above all the voters. 01:19:44.710 --> 01:19:45.349 Uh all right. 01:19:45.430 --> 01:19:47.750 Uh anything else you want to want to talk about in this film? 01:19:47.829 --> 01:19:49.909 Or have we have we uh we rung it out? 01:19:50.470 --> 01:19:59.269 I've definitely touched on all the things I was eager to discuss with this with this really fascinating and well-executed movie. 01:20:00.149 --> 01:20:01.269 Extremely well executed. 01:20:01.670 --> 01:20:20.949 And I think I'll just say again, like somebody who writes about politics for a living, who is very focused on politics, who's who has a a a slightly cynical view of not slightly very simple view of politics, who's more focused on like the you know, the polls and who's gonna win and who's gonna lose, rather than the policy of which is partly because our the parties are so divided. 01:20:21.109 --> 01:20:24.710 But I to me this movie just rang really it just rang true. 01:20:25.109 --> 01:20:27.590 It it felt like you could make the movie today. 01:20:27.989 --> 01:20:40.069 That's what that's what I think is so interesting about it, is that the the the the issues that are raised in this movie about the the corruption of of the politics I don't feel like a lot has changed in in 54 years since it came out. 01:20:40.949 --> 01:20:41.269 No. 01:20:43.430 --> 01:20:45.269 And on that note, let's finish up there. 01:20:45.349 --> 01:20:46.149 Thank you, Jonathan. 01:20:46.229 --> 01:20:51.269 As always, um, it's great to be back, and we'll be uh hopefully hit this episode out next week. 01:20:51.349 --> 01:20:52.389 We talked about this before. 01:20:52.550 --> 01:20:57.750 We're gonna do the morning Scorsese film Mean Streets, or be our second Scorsese film. 01:20:57.909 --> 01:20:59.750 So if you haven't seen it, go watch it. 01:20:59.909 --> 01:21:08.550 Uh please, if you like the podcast, don't forget to uh subscribe, to recommend it to your friends, give us a thumbs up, buy us a cup of coffee, do whatever you have to do. 01:21:08.630 --> 01:21:11.189 Uh, but just to show support for it, we do appreciate it. 01:21:11.349 --> 01:21:13.349 And uh until next week, see you later. 01:21:13.430 --> 01:21:13.909 Bye-bye.