النص الكامل لحلقة What Gravitational Waves Reveal About the Universe_ with Michelle Thaller

--> 00:03:33.889 You could say it, Michelle. You could say they're doing 78 00:03:33.949 --> 00:03:35.210 God's work. You could say that. 79 00:03:35.389 --> 00:03:36.250 Goddard's work. 80 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:37.939 Goddard's work. 81 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:39.400 Goddard's work. Goddard's work. 82 00:03:39.419 --> 00:03:40.139 Goddard's work. 83 00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:44.240 Absolutely. 84 00:03:44.419 --> 00:03:47.500 No, two heroes of mine. And yeah, it's been rough. 85 00:03:47.860 --> 00:03:49.639 It's been a rough couple of years for them. 86 00:03:49.979 --> 00:03:50.080 Yeah. 87 00:03:50.099 --> 00:03:52.530 In fact, at the museum, we have a few refugees 88 00:03:53.050 --> 00:03:56.789 that have taken pitch tent within our facility because we're 89 00:03:56.810 --> 00:03:59.030 just down the street a couple of miles from GISS, 90 00:03:59.189 --> 00:04:02.430 Goddard Institute for Space Studies. But they're homeless at this point. 91 00:04:02.689 --> 00:04:05.729 They're still all paid as scientists, but they're homeless. But 92 00:04:05.750 --> 00:04:08.009 it has the name Goddard in it, yet so did 93 00:04:08.069 --> 00:04:10.120 the Space Flight Center. So now we go to Maryland 94 00:04:10.159 --> 00:04:11.939 and what happens there? Well, yeah. 95 00:04:11.960 --> 00:04:15.580 So Maryland, right. So this is this giant base. At 96 00:04:15.620 --> 00:04:17.740 the moment, it's still NASA's largest base in terms of 97 00:04:17.779 --> 00:04:19.540 people that go there. I think they're down a little bit. 98 00:04:19.980 --> 00:04:22.149 But when I was there, there were about 10,000 people 99 00:04:22.189 --> 00:04:25.709 that worked there every day. And that's pretty incredible. I mean, 100 00:04:27.370 --> 00:04:29.410 one statistic they had is that if Goddard were to 101 00:04:29.470 --> 00:04:32.329 leave NASA, then Goddard would become the world's second largest 102 00:04:32.360 --> 00:04:35.720 space program. I mean, Goddard itself is bigger than the 103 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:37.300 other space programs around the world. 104 00:04:38.250 --> 00:04:42.279 And again, I mean, just- So Goddard builds satellites or 105 00:04:42.300 --> 00:04:44.480 telescopes that get launched. Well, yeah. 106 00:04:44.500 --> 00:04:47.079 So, I mean, the Hubble Space Telescope was built largely 107 00:04:47.100 --> 00:04:50.459 at Goddard. The observatory part of the James Webb Space Telescope. 108 00:04:50.689 --> 00:04:54.870 We build the GOES satellites, the weather satellites. I mean, yeah. 109 00:04:54.990 --> 00:04:58.509 I mean, there's four huge science divisions. You've got earth science, 110 00:04:58.529 --> 00:05:01.649 which is the biggest one. And then heliophysics, study of 111 00:05:01.670 --> 00:05:04.120 the sun, the Space Weather Action Center. You know, all 112 00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:06.160 the stuff the sun's thrown at us. And then you've 113 00:05:06.180 --> 00:05:09.740 got the planetary stuff and the astrophysics stuff. It's

the 114 00:05:09.800 --> 00:05:12.430 world's largest science space that we know of. 115 00:05:13.139 --> 00:05:13.680 Yeah, for now. 116 00:05:15.689 --> 00:05:17.129 Please keep it that way. 117 00:05:17.250 --> 00:05:17.509 Yes. 118 00:05:17.850 --> 00:05:19.689 We'll get there, Chuck. Yeah. 119 00:05:20.970 --> 00:05:21.189 Yeah. 120 00:05:21.730 --> 00:05:24.529 Michelle, tell me what are the consequences of the budget 121 00:05:24.569 --> 00:05:28.079 cuts we've read about to NASA overall and to Goddard 122 00:05:28.120 --> 00:05:29.439 specifically where you once worked? 123 00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:33.259 It's been a couple years of, I mean, I really 124 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:35.550 feel for all of these people, all my former friends, 125 00:05:35.579 --> 00:05:37.709 and so many of them have left. I mean, I've 126 00:05:37.730 --> 00:05:41.170 seen some of our absolute best scientists, and not only that, 127 00:05:41.189 --> 00:05:43.550 our best engineers. One of my best friends, who's just 128 00:05:43.569 --> 00:05:47.389 an incredible kick-ass systems engineer, she got scooped up by Switzerland. 129 00:05:47.949 --> 00:05:52.009 And I mean, the scientists are going overseas. With NASA 130 00:05:52.029 --> 00:05:55.350 and Goddard in general, it's been this real seesaw. Is 131 00:05:55.370 --> 00:05:58.050 there going to be a huge cut? Or, well, then 132 00:05:58.120 --> 00:06:00.470 Congress kind of restores the funding, so maybe not. Oh, no, no, 133 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:02.120 we're going to do the huge cut. Oh, well, well, 134 00:06:02.139 --> 00:06:05.899 maybe not. So, I mean, it's this time of terrible uncertainty. 135 00:06:06.019 --> 00:06:09.870 And aside from programs being on the canceling block and 136 00:06:09.930 --> 00:06:12.589 losing scientists, the other big thing I've been seeing that's 137 00:06:12.610 --> 00:06:16.949 been heartbreaking is the best young people, the best scientists. So, 138 00:06:17.470 --> 00:06:19.610 NASA was required to get rid of all of their, 139 00:06:19.629 --> 00:06:20.980 you know, all the people that were hired in the 140 00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:22.769 last three years, right? All the people that were still 141 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:25.699 on probation, you know, I mean, this may be the 142 00:06:25.740 --> 00:06:28.079 person you wanted to get the leader, you know, right 143 00:06:28.120 --> 00:06:29.959 out of graduate school, they're going to be the leader 144 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:32.519 for the future. If they were there less than three years, 145 00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:35.000 you can still legally fire them. And so those people 146 00:06:35.060 --> 00:06:37.339 are gone. And, and you have a lot of the 147 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:40.180 best scientists now going, well, why should I work for NASA? 148 00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:41.939 Why should I work for any kind of government agency? 149 00:06:42.379 --> 00:06:44.800 because they can just up and cancel my job at 150 00:06:44.839 -->

00:06:45.579 a moment's notice. 151 00:06:45.819 --> 00:06:47.670 And just to be clear, when you use the word probation, 152 00:06:48.009 --> 00:06:50.629 you don't mean they did something bad and they're under observation. 153 00:06:51.009 --> 00:06:55.449 This is just the starter period of time over which 154 00:06:55.610 --> 00:06:58.480 you could be removed for no cause at all, just 155 00:06:58.540 --> 00:07:03.279 because you're not vested in the government system yet. Is 156 00:07:03.300 --> 00:07:04.600 that a fair way to characterize that? 157 00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:06.639 That's right. I mean, everybody sort of has a trial 158 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:09.459 period when you're hired as a government scientist, you know, 159 00:07:10.540 --> 00:07:12.540 Equivalent to sort of like getting tenure at a university. 160 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:15.350 You're there sort of for a while where it's legally 161 00:07:15.769 --> 00:07:17.509 easy to say, oh, well, that wasn't the right fit. 162 00:07:17.529 --> 00:07:19.949 Maybe you should go somewhere else. But then when they 163 00:07:20.089 --> 00:07:22.810 make you permanent, that's harder to do. And so, yeah, 164 00:07:22.949 --> 00:07:25.670 by probationary, that doesn't mean that anybody– nothing was wrong. 165 00:07:25.709 --> 00:07:27.029 These are the best people in the world. 166 00:07:27.290 --> 00:07:28.810 If you do something wrong, they put you on double 167 00:07:28.850 --> 00:07:32.449 secret probation. Yes, that's right. 168 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:36.160 So, Michelle, this sounds like when we– I think I 169 00:07:36.199 --> 00:07:38.639 might be a little older than you, but same sort 170 00:07:38.660 --> 00:07:45.050 of generation– Where we're in graduate school and we, as 171 00:07:45.089 --> 00:07:50.889 a nation, are the beneficiaries of the smartest people in 172 00:07:50.970 --> 00:07:55.850 other countries coming to the United States for opportunity to 173 00:07:55.949 --> 00:08:00.540 express their talents and their brilliance. And bad for their 174 00:08:00.579 --> 00:08:02.420 home country, good for America. 175 00:08:02.439 --> 00:08:02.519 Yeah. 176 00:08:03.230 --> 00:08:06.069 And now I have colleagues, as do you, who are 177 00:08:06.089 --> 00:08:08.329 getting the phone call from Europe. We got a lab 178 00:08:08.370 --> 00:08:10.269 for you in Germany. We got a lab for you 179 00:08:10.310 --> 00:08:14.250 in Paris. And here's money, and it's funded, and it's stable. 180 00:08:14.699 --> 00:08:18.839 Come on down. And so now the world is cherry-picking us. 181 00:08:20.180 --> 00:08:26.560 They weren't sending us their best, their brightest. They weren't. Yeah, 182 00:08:26.579 --> 00:08:29.060 but now we're sending our best and brightest out. 183 00:08:30.050 --> 00:08:33.960 Yeah, yeah. So where does this land, do you think? 184 00:08:34.129 --> 00:08:35.059 Are we going to recover from this? 185 00:08:36.299 --> 00:08:38.059 Well, I mean, one of the physics journals I remember 186 00:08:38.100 --> 00:08:40.500 had a full-page ad from the country of Denmark saying, 187 00:08:40.539 --> 00:08:42.200 you know, come to a place where facts still. 188 00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:42.639 Matter, right? 189 00:08:42.679 --> 00:08:45.159 Damn. Oh, damn. 190 00:08:45.519 --> 00:08:47.149 Yeah, no, other countries are on it. 191 00:08:47.629 --> 00:08:48.750 Oh, that's a burn. 192 00:08:49.350 --> 00:08:53.669 Yeah, I mean, Europe is a beneficiary, Canada, and China. 193 00:08:53.769 --> 00:08:55.429 I mean, China as well. I have a lot of 194 00:08:55.490 --> 00:08:57.250 colleagues that got offers. It's like, well, bring your whole 195 00:08:57.269 --> 00:08:59.509 lab over, all your graduate students, like you said, funding. 196 00:09:00.980 --> 00:09:03.340 It's so unnecessary. I mean, the thing that has been 197 00:09:03.379 --> 00:09:06.639 so tragic about this is that science research in the 198 00:09:06.659 --> 00:09:10.559 United States is a low budget item. Oh, my God. 199 00:09:11.019 --> 00:09:13.259 You know, we do not spend a lot of money 200 00:09:13.370 --> 00:09:15.929 on this already. I mean, the thing that I was 201 00:09:15.950 --> 00:09:18.070 so proud of, I mean, you know, I worked for 202 00:09:18.110 --> 00:09:21.190 sort of the science part of NASA, doing all the 203 00:09:21.250 --> 00:09:23.669 Earth science, the Mars rovers, you know, the Webb telescopes. 204 00:09:24.600 --> 00:09:27.539 About 110 active missions at any given time. Each of 205 00:09:27.580 --> 00:09:31.350 those missions employs thousands of people. In some cases, tens 206 00:09:31.389 --> 00:09:33.850 of thousands of people across the country, across the world. 207 00:09:34.490 --> 00:09:36.830 They do it all for under $ 6 billion a year. 208 00:09:38.409 --> 00:09:41.409 That's a nothing burger when it comes to a budget. 209 00:09:41.490 --> 00:09:44.700 We get so much innovation. You can demonstrate. We've had 210 00:09:44.720 --> 00:09:47.720 economists do studies that you get two, three times more 211 00:09:48.090 --> 00:09:51.139 the economic advancement of money put into science research. 212 00:09:51.460 --> 00:09:53.659 Just to be clear, that's the $ 6 billion out of 213 00:09:53.700 --> 00:09:57.509 the $ 30 billion that is NASA's annual budget, and you're 214 00:09:57.590 --> 00:10:00.460 referring to just the science, which is not put people 215 00:10:00.519 --> 00:10:03.500 in orbit. That's not the space station. That is not 216 00:10:04.139 --> 00:10:06.360 launching astronauts. That is science. 217 00:10:07.090 --> 00:10:08.710 But putting people in orbit, of course, has to be 218 00:10:08.730 --> 00:10:10.269 more expensive because you need to be a lot more 219 00:10:10.289 --> 00:10:12.250 careful when there are human lives on stake. 220 00:10:12.730 --> 00:10:14.389 Yeah, they want to come back usually. They want to 221 00:10:14.409 --> 00:10:14.710 come back. 222 00:10:14.730 --> 00:10:15.149 Oh, yeah.

223 00:10:15.309 --> 00:10:18.769 The rovers don't need to come back. People, you got 224 00:10:18.809 --> 00:10:19.720 to bring them back, you know. 225 00:10:21.970 --> 00:10:23.940 What you can do for the cheap. I mean, some 226 00:10:23.960 --> 00:10:26.440 of the missions that blow me away, you know, I mean, 227 00:10:26.759 --> 00:10:29.559 basic physics, how to neutron stars work nicer. That's actually 228 00:10:29.639 --> 00:10:32.139 on the space station, but it's a small thing, just 229 00:10:32.159 --> 00:10:35.070 a couple hundred million dollars. I mean, these little budget items. 230 00:10:35.809 --> 00:10:37.429 James Webb, of course, is a bigger one, but that 231 00:10:37.450 --> 00:10:41.110 was over 20 years and employed, again, tens of thousands 232 00:10:41.149 --> 00:10:45.200 of people. These are tremendously great value for the money. 233 00:10:45.389 --> 00:10:48.080 Did you say it was $ 30 billion? That's all we spend? 234 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:48.960 $ 30 billion? 235 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:51.419 The total. Yeah, it's around there, plus or minus for 236 00:10:51.480 --> 00:10:55.580 NASA in a year. $ 30 billion is less than four-tenths 237 00:10:56.360 --> 00:10:59.720 of 1% of your tax dollar. I do the experiment. 238 00:10:59.759 --> 00:11:02.960 You take a full dollar and just cut into it, 239 00:11:03.299 --> 00:11:06.210 just a single dollar bill, cut into it, four tenths 240 00:11:06.289 --> 00:11:09.879 of 1% of its width, and it doesn't even reach 241 00:11:09.929 --> 00:11:13.759 the paint, the ink of the bill. Okay, you can 242 00:11:13.820 --> 00:11:17.350 remove that and the bill is still there. A. B, 243 00:11:17.960 --> 00:11:21.700 what I wanted is to create a new budgeting system 244 00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:27.940 where agencies get the money people think they're getting. Because 245 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:31.889 the visibility of NASA is so huge. compared to their 246 00:11:31.970 --> 00:11:35.990 actual budget, no one would guess off the top that 247 00:11:36.009 --> 00:11:38.570 they're getting 4 tenths of 1%. They would say 5%. 248 00:11:38.570 --> 00:11:42.149 I've heard some people say 10%. And I say, that's 249 00:11:42.169 --> 00:11:44.289 the budget we should give them. 250 00:11:44.330 --> 00:11:44.769 I like that. 251 00:11:44.809 --> 00:11:47.240 Give them their visibility budget. Yeah. Yeah. 252 00:11:47.389 --> 00:11:49.919 And by the way, everybody loves NASA still. It's one 253 00:11:49.960 --> 00:11:54.320 of the few government agencies where people believe in the 254 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:57.480 institution of the agency, and they also trust it. And 255 00:11:57.500 --> 00:12:00.759 it's respected around the world. It's respected around the world. 256 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:05.669 That and what was formerly the NIH, which is now 257 00:12:05.889 --> 00:12:09.070 the SAD, as in just sad. 258 00:12:09.090 --> 00:12:09.470 Yeah. 259 00:12:11.950 --> 00:12:15.629 That doesn't even stand for anything. It's just sad. 260 00:12:16.110 --> 00:12:19.529 I mean, NIH is a whole other story. I mean, honestly, 261 00:12:19.580 --> 00:12:22.879 that's even more worth saving than NASA. I mean, as 262 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:25.320 much as I'm a huge NASA and space fan, I mean, 263 00:12:25.480 --> 00:12:26.879 do not mess with the NIH. 264 00:12:27.340 --> 00:12:27.980 Good Lord. 265 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:30.639 I mean, we need to keep that research going, the 266 00:12:30.659 --> 00:12:33.419 cancer research, the Alzheimer's research. I mean, again, Center for 267 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:36.289 Disease Control, things like that. Oh my God, do we 268 00:12:36.309 --> 00:12:36.629 need those? 269 00:12:37.049 --> 00:12:37.690 So, so yeah. 270 00:12:37.750 --> 00:12:39.889 And remember, I mean, for 30 billion, you're still talking 271 00:12:39.929 --> 00:12:41.759 about the whole budget of NASA and the human space 272 00:12:41.799 --> 00:12:44.779 program is the big chunk of that. All the earth science, 273 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:47.879 all the climate science, all the weather satellites, you know, 274 00:12:48.039 --> 00:12:50.299 all the monitoring the sun, all the exploring the universe. 275 00:12:50.700 --> 00:12:53.370 And all the space telescopes are in the science. 276 00:12:53.379 --> 00:12:54.409 All the space telescopes. 277 00:12:54.610 --> 00:12:54.870 Yeah. 278 00:12:55.169 --> 00:12:57.470 So, I mean, it's, it's nothing. I mean, I don't 279 00:12:57.490 --> 00:12:59.289 know if this is true, but I remember one economist 280 00:12:59.330 --> 00:13:01.889 saying that, that they'd shown that the Pentagon, the military 281 00:13:01.929 --> 00:13:04.240 cross all over the world, had spent more money on 282 00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:06.159 air conditioning in a year than that budget. 283 00:13:06.519 --> 00:13:07.159 Oh, my God. 284 00:13:07.639 --> 00:13:11.480 So I'm not absolutely sure that's true. But, you know, 285 00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:14.000 it's on that level. I mean, we're not even a 286 00:13:14.039 --> 00:13:15.000 fighter jet, basically. 287 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:19.720 Looks like America has stepped in a pile of doge crap. 288 00:13:21.139 --> 00:13:22.600 Yeah, doge doo doo. 289 00:13:23.559 --> 00:13:27.519 Space has a way of humbling us. Every observation, every mission, 290 00:13:27.899 --> 00:13:30.879 every new data set reminds us that the universe is 291 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:34.860 far more complex than our first assumptions. That's a perspective 292 00:13:34.940 --> 00:13:38.179 Michelle Thaler has spent her career sharing, helping bridge the 293 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:43.090 gap between cutting-edge astrophysics and public understanding. But when science 294 00:13:43.230 --> 00:13:46.750 enters the news cycle, that clarity can get distorted. Some 295 00:13:46.789 --> 00:13:50.110 headlines push bold claims, while others take a more measured approach, 296 00:13:50.230 --> 00:13:54.750 focusing on data and

uncertainty. That's why we've been partnered 297 00:13:54.830 --> 00:13:58.840 with Ground News since 2024. Their app and website give 298 00:13:58.879 --> 00:14:02.330 us a data-driven approach to reading the news... by pulling 299 00:14:02.470 --> 00:14:06.970 articles from over 50,000 sources worldwide in one place. You 300 00:14:07.009 --> 00:14:09.970 can easily compare how different sources cover the same story 301 00:14:10.289 --> 00:14:13.389 and get a visual breakdown on the bias, reliability of 302 00:14:13.429 --> 00:14:16.580 a source, and who owns it. Take this recent story 303 00:14:16.620 --> 00:14:19.759 about NASA's race to save the Swift Observatory before the 304 00:14:19.860 --> 00:14:24.379 aging spacecraft falls back to Earth. Over 200 sources reported 305 00:14:24.440 --> 00:14:26.700 on this story, and when you look at the headlines, 306 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:30.360 they're all reporting on the same NASA mission. yet they 307 00:14:30.419 --> 00:14:33.500 leave you with very different impressions. Some focus on the 308 00:14:33.559 --> 00:14:36.909 engineering and science behind the rescue, while others emphasize the 309 00:14:36.990 --> 00:14:40.549 danger with phrases like high risk or burning up. The 310 00:14:40.590 --> 00:14:44.169 facts haven't changed, but the framing has. That's exactly what 311 00:14:44.230 --> 00:14:47.149 Ground News helps you uncover, making it easy to compare 312 00:14:47.190 --> 00:14:50.360 how different outlets tell the same story before you draw 313 00:14:50.700 --> 00:14:54.019 your own conclusions. We've been partnered with Ground News since 314 00:14:54.019 --> 00:14:59.320 2024 for their transparency, and because they're fully subscriber-funded, so 315 00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:02.899 there aren't corporate interests deciding what you can and can't see. 316 00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:05.210 If that's the kind of world you want to live in, 317 00:15:05.669 --> 00:15:08.549 you can get the same unlimited Vantage plan we use 318 00:15:08.830 --> 00:15:15.490 for 40% off at ground.news.com or by scanning the QR code. 319 00:15:15.460 --> 00:15:16.039 On the screen. 320 00:15:16.700 --> 00:15:19.799 So let's pivot now to our questions. So Michelle, we've 321 00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:23.440 solicited questions from our fan base, well, from our Patreon supporters, 322 00:15:24.100 --> 00:15:26.870 and they know who you are, they know your expertise. 323 00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:31.440 And these are targeted for you. And to the extent 324 00:15:31.460 --> 00:15:34.480 that we overlap in expertise, I'm happy to put in 325 00:15:34.500 --> 00:15:37.740 my two cents. But we're really here to see what 326 00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:39.960 you've got to say in response to these questions. Chuck 327 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:42.820 has them all. I haven't seen any of them. And so, Chuck, 328 00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:43.490 what do you have for us? 329 00:15:44.210 --> 00:15:49.289 All right. So, inquiring minds want to know. This is 330 00:15:49.429 --> 00:15:54.409 Ross Graves, who says, Hello, I admire and I respect 331 00:15:54.470 --> 00:15:57.830 you all, Dr. Tyson, Dr. Thaller. Lord Nice, this is 332 00:15:57.889 --> 00:16:02.110 Ross from California. When a photon is absorbed and re-emitted 333 00:16:02.210 --> 00:16:06.610 or reflected, is the journey through space-time physically continuous, or 334 00:16:06.730 --> 00:16:11.100 does that interaction create an entirely new quantum history for 335 00:16:11.129 --> 00:16:15.460 the outgoing light in the sense that the light experiences 336 00:16:15.620 --> 00:16:19.460 no time of its own if reflected? Did it hit 337 00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:27.730 a surface and restart its existence? experience as a reflection? Dude, 338 00:16:28.049 --> 00:16:31.750 that's a matrix like crap. He just came up with that. 339 00:16:31.929 --> 00:16:33.690 That is an amazing question. 340 00:16:34.529 --> 00:16:37.080 I love it. I love it. Did it take on 341 00:16:37.100 --> 00:16:40.340 a new identity as a reflected photon? That's what that 342 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:42.000 comes down to. So Michelle, what do you have to 343 00:16:42.019 --> 00:16:43.799 say about that? Okay. All right. 344 00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:44.080 All right. 345 00:16:44.100 --> 00:16:45.960 So I'm going to say, I'm going to start out 346 00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:49.509 saying this is something that is a question of mind. So, 347 00:16:49.649 --> 00:16:51.960 I mean, well done, because I mean, this is actually 348 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:56.100 something that I wish I understood better. I only recently 349 00:16:56.159 --> 00:17:00.259 came to a better understanding because of some great podcasts, actually. 350 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:03.519 It was the podcast Veritasium that Derek Muller does, that 351 00:17:03.740 --> 00:17:07.059 finally I could understand like why the speed of light 352 00:17:07.140 --> 00:17:10.309 is different speeds. When you go through the vacuum of space, 353 00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:12.750 it's the fastest anything can go, the speed of light, 354 00:17:13.089 --> 00:17:16.529 when it passes through air or water or glass. You 355 00:17:16.549 --> 00:17:19.359 see that classic bend, right? When you look through water, 356 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:22.119 you see light bend, and that's because the speed changes. 357 00:17:22.700 --> 00:17:25.220 And it was only his podcast that finally got me 358 00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:28.819 to understand light is an electromagnetic field. And when it's 359 00:17:28.839 --> 00:17:31.839 in the presence of other electromagnetic fields, when you're not 360 00:17:31.859 --> 00:17:34.869 in a vacuum, there's other atoms and molecules around. the 361 00:17:35.049 --> 00:17:38.390 electromagnetic field basically becomes a combination of those two fields. 362 00:17:38.549 --> 00:17:41.630 And he did this great podcast about that. The question 363 00:17:41.650 --> 00:17:44.609 about whether a photon is

reflected becomes a different photon 364 00:17:44.670 --> 00:17:47.859 is fascinating. So let's break it up. Let's go back 365 00:17:47.880 --> 00:17:50.019 to the beginning. I mean, this is one of the 366 00:17:50.180 --> 00:17:53.930 craziest and it's true. You know, the idea that when 367 00:17:53.950 --> 00:17:56.619 you're traveling at the speed of light, I mean, photons 368 00:17:56.680 --> 00:18:00.240 obviously don't have any consciousness. They're not able to observe this. 369 00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:04.640 But a photon has no idea that space and time exist. 370 00:18:05.259 --> 00:18:07.839 When you're traveling at the speed of light, time goes 371 00:18:08.119 --> 00:18:11.440 to a zero. You don't experience the passage of time. And, 372 00:18:11.500 --> 00:18:13.349 you know, when you think about you're frozen in a 373 00:18:13.380 --> 00:18:15.390 moment of time, you can go any distance in the 374 00:18:15.450 --> 00:18:18.349 universe instantaneously to your perspective. 375 00:18:18.750 --> 00:18:19.690 So a photon. 376 00:18:20.509 --> 00:18:24.490 doesn't really experience the universe as ever having expanded. You know, 377 00:18:24.930 --> 00:18:28.150 we're still a point, a thing, you know, almost a 378 00:18:28.250 --> 00:18:31.710 singularity to a photon. It does not experience space and time. 379 00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:35.039 What the hell does that mean? I mean, how do 380 00:18:35.079 --> 00:18:38.000 you wrap your head around that? When, I mean, the 381 00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:40.579 light that's, you know, bouncing off my lamp from my 382 00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:43.349 face right now doesn't agree with me that space and 383 00:18:43.400 --> 00:18:46.910 time exist. Now, I mean, help me unpack this, Neil, 384 00:18:46.950 --> 00:18:49.069 because I don't have a great answer. I would like 385 00:18:49.089 --> 00:18:49.630 a better answer. 386 00:18:50.390 --> 00:18:53.150 Let me restate what you said, but I don't have 387 00:18:53.190 --> 00:18:56.700 a deeper understanding just for having restated it. It's the 388 00:18:56.759 --> 00:19:02.519 photon has to know that the universe expands because it 389 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:07.799 gets redshifted, right? So the photon you detect has a 390 00:19:07.980 --> 00:19:13.049 different energy than the photon that was emitted. So even 391 00:19:13.089 --> 00:19:17.650 though the photon does not experience space-time, we measure a 392 00:19:17.730 --> 00:19:22.910 different photon. a different energy for that photon. Some of 393 00:19:22.930 --> 00:19:25.750 that energy got shared with the expansion of the universe. 394 00:19:26.410 --> 00:19:29.910 So that's something I can't claim to fully understand, how 395 00:19:30.210 --> 00:19:34.430 it doesn't exist in time at all, yet it changed 396 00:19:34.470 --> 00:19:38.819 its wavelength before it arrived on location with you. Now, 397 00:19:38.859 --> 00:19:41.099 let me ask you, I didn't see that episode with veritasium, 398 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:45.519 but it was also a recent understanding of mine as well, 399 00:19:46.180 --> 00:19:50.230 that when photon moves through a medium, It is. is 400 00:19:50.309 --> 00:19:54.119 moving at the speed of light between atoms of the 401 00:19:54.150 --> 00:20:00.779 transparent medium, but it interacts with each atom and continues 402 00:20:00.859 --> 00:20:05.750 forward and that interaction creates a time delay. So the 403 00:20:05.809 --> 00:20:09.279 photon is never actually ever going slower than the speed 404 00:20:09.319 --> 00:20:15.279 of light. It just got waylaid en route through the 405 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:18.640 transparent medium. Now, is that consistent with what you got 406 00:20:18.740 --> 00:20:20.220 out of the Veritasium episode? 407 00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:25.349 So wait, Neil, let me just, because, well, Jesus. So. 408 00:20:28.759 --> 00:20:29.900 I'm trying to, I'm trying to. 409 00:20:29.900 --> 00:20:32.200 Take a cleansing breath, Chuck. Yes. Take a cleansing breath. 410 00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:37.640 Okay. I'm trying to get this as a metaphor because 411 00:20:37.660 --> 00:20:40.259 that's how I see and understand things. So in the 412 00:20:40.299 --> 00:20:43.200 vacuum of space, that would be like taking a pool 413 00:20:43.269 --> 00:20:46.309 ball and shooting it straight across the table into the pocket. 414 00:20:46.910 --> 00:20:49.519 And it's going at that speed. But then when you 415 00:20:49.539 --> 00:20:52.140 put it through a medium, that would be like having 416 00:20:52.180 --> 00:20:55.539 the same speed but banking it off of three banks 417 00:20:55.660 --> 00:20:59.029 and then going into the pocket. So your speed doesn't change, 418 00:20:59.269 --> 00:21:00.890 but the fact that you had to bank it three 419 00:21:00.950 --> 00:21:04.410 times is what slowed you down. 420 00:21:04.809 --> 00:21:08.240 However, what you're describing does happen to light, but that's 421 00:21:08.259 --> 00:21:10.619 when light scatters. Okay. 422 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:12.200 Oh, so that's a different phenomenon. 423 00:21:12.220 --> 00:21:14.480 Because a transparent medium, it keeps in the same direction 424 00:21:14.940 --> 00:21:15.599 at all times. 425 00:21:16.119 --> 00:21:17.779 Ah, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. 426 00:21:17.819 --> 00:21:21.170 That's the difference between a transparent medium, a translucent medium, 427 00:21:21.470 --> 00:21:25.630 and just something that completely scatters the light. So, Michelle, 428 00:21:25.890 --> 00:21:28.309 are we in agreement that we're talking about a new 429 00:21:28.369 --> 00:21:32.410 photon as it goes through, a newly shaped photon after 430 00:21:32.450 --> 00:21:34.769 it interacted with these other fields? Is that a fair 431 00:21:34.789 --> 00:21:35.589 way to think about it? 432 00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:38.509 The way the podcast did it, and this was the 433 00:21:38.690 --> 00:21:40.710 first time I ever sort of

thought, oh, okay, I 434 00:21:40.730 --> 00:21:43.670 get this. You know, we were sort of talking about 435 00:21:43.710 --> 00:21:46.539 photons as particles here, as like little billiard balls and stuff. 436 00:21:46.579 --> 00:21:51.000 But of course, remember, famously, they're electromagnetic waves, right? I mean, 437 00:21:51.019 --> 00:21:54.890 they're not just little balls. And so what the podcast 438 00:21:54.930 --> 00:21:57.369 did is it showed that there's electromagnetic wave, there's a 439 00:21:57.390 --> 00:22:02.170 photon going in, and there's other atoms around. And basically 440 00:22:02.230 --> 00:22:06.119 the electromagnetic wave starts those other atoms kind of vibrating 441 00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:09.880 along with it. But there's a delay, there's a lag 442 00:22:09.900 --> 00:22:12.420 to kind of get those other fields, those other electric 443 00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:15.920 fields vibrating as the photon goes by. And the resulting 444 00:22:16.059 --> 00:22:19.960 speed is actually a combination. It's actually a way of 445 00:22:20.019 --> 00:22:23.279 resolving those two different vibrational modes. 446 00:22:23.779 --> 00:22:28.779 So the photon is like to the other, you know, Adams, like, bro, 447 00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:30.420 you're bringing me down. 448 00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:33.309 Yeah. 449 00:22:33.809 --> 00:22:36.289 You're dragging me, man. I can't, I got it. Come on. 450 00:22:36.589 --> 00:22:38.970 I'm serious. Like get off me. And then let me 451 00:22:38.990 --> 00:22:40.089 get the hell out of this medium. 452 00:22:40.470 --> 00:22:42.450 Yeah. Cause once he exits the medium, it's back at 453 00:22:42.490 --> 00:22:43.049 the speed of light. 454 00:22:43.700 --> 00:22:45.559 The speed of the wave that we measure is a 455 00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:48.140 combination of the speed of the photon in a vacuum, 456 00:22:48.509 --> 00:22:52.009 but then also the speed of the variations of basically 457 00:22:52.049 --> 00:22:56.529 the oscillations of everything around it. Those two combine into 458 00:22:56.569 --> 00:22:59.569 the measured speed of the photon that we see. That's fascinating. 459 00:22:59.869 --> 00:23:02.410 So the question about, I mean, it's the same thing, Neil. 460 00:23:02.769 --> 00:23:03.210 Absolutely. 461 00:23:03.230 --> 00:23:05.890 When you talk about how a photon changes, even as 462 00:23:05.930 --> 00:23:09.140 it goes through a vacuum, it loses energy. It's a 463 00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:12.440 very similar question that if a photon is reflected, Is 464 00:23:12.509 --> 00:23:15.130 it a different photon? I mean, it can certainly be 465 00:23:15.150 --> 00:23:18.529 a different energy, right? I mean, when a photon is reflected, 466 00:23:18.569 --> 00:23:21.970 you usually lose some energy in the reflection. So, I mean, 467 00:23:22.009 --> 00:23:25.440 there's all sorts of things. Photons absolutely can change. 468 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:28.180 Just to be clear, Chuck, if a photon hits a 469 00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:31.839 surface and reflects, some of its energy is imparted as 470 00:23:31.900 --> 00:23:34.859 momentum to that surface. And that's why solar sails work 471 00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:35.140 at all. 472 00:23:35.529 --> 00:23:36.180 Has to be. 473 00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:39.509 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, there's an energy change there. 474 00:23:40.029 --> 00:23:44.789 So I'm voting for a completely different photon here. What 475 00:23:44.809 --> 00:23:45.869 do you think, Michelle? 476 00:23:46.829 --> 00:23:49.839 Yeah, like I said, Ross Graves is a name that's 477 00:23:49.859 --> 00:23:53.579 familiar to me. So yes, thank you for this fabulous question. 478 00:23:53.940 --> 00:23:56.859 And I have to say, I do not have an 479 00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:00.630 extremely clear answer. I'm not ashamed of that. This is 480 00:24:00.789 --> 00:24:02.309 one I've wondered myself. 481 00:24:02.769 --> 00:24:06.049 Okay. So let's, let's vote. That's right. 482 00:24:06.089 --> 00:24:06.450 Yeah. 483 00:24:06.549 --> 00:24:07.089 Yeah. 484 00:24:07.329 --> 00:24:10.089 I'm voting that the photon that came out, it's a 485 00:24:10.150 --> 00:24:15.779 new quantum state that is carrying the mission forward after 486 00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:19.059 it had its delay from the medium through which it 487 00:24:19.259 --> 00:24:22.359 passed or the medium off of which it reflected. I'm 488 00:24:22.380 --> 00:24:22.920 going with that. 489 00:24:24.660 --> 00:24:28.420 I wish I had the same properties and there was 490 00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:33.160 a reflection Chuck and real Chuck and I could tell 491 00:24:33.700 --> 00:24:36.009 all the people I owe money, you need to go 492 00:24:36.049 --> 00:24:37.400 talk to reflection Chuck. 493 00:24:38.940 --> 00:24:39.869 That's not me anymore. 494 00:24:39.930 --> 00:24:40.650 That's not me. 495 00:24:40.569 --> 00:24:46.950 Anymore, buddy. That's a great question. Okay. What else do 496 00:24:46.970 --> 00:24:47.960 you have, Chuck? All right. 497 00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:52.119 Here we go. This is Jao Costa. Jao Costa says, 498 00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:57.380 good tidings, Dr. Tyson, Dr. Thaler, Lord, nice deep breath now, Chuck. 499 00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:00.829 Jao Costa here. Greetings from Portugal. 500 00:25:01.509 --> 00:25:02.509 All right. 501 00:25:02.970 --> 00:25:07.250 Yes. He says, if matter isn't being created, only transformed- 502 00:25:07.650 --> 00:25:10.710 Will there come a day when the universe runs out 503 00:25:10.829 --> 00:25:14.960 of matter to create new astral bodies? If so, how 504 00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:18.240 will we be able to notice such a situation developing? 505 00:25:18.500 --> 00:25:22.799 Will the creation start to become rarer, smaller, or deficient, 506 00:25:23.079 --> 00:25:27.099 as in less frequent, less energetic, or less stable? Thank you, 507 00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:32.680 and please keep making our necks hurt. Oh, I like it. 508

00:25:32.930 --> 00:25:34.069 Look up. making that hurt. 509 00:25:34.450 --> 00:25:37.150 Oh, no. I see. I see what he did there. Okay. 510 00:25:37.410 --> 00:25:39.009 You got him looking up so much. You gave him 511 00:25:39.049 --> 00:25:39.869 a neck ache, Neil. 512 00:25:42.109 --> 00:25:43.769 Okay. You can lay down and look up and then 513 00:25:43.789 --> 00:25:49.579 you're just looking straight ahead. The geometry. Yeah. 514 00:25:51.220 --> 00:25:51.599 Yeah. 515 00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:54.680 Well, it sounds to me like somebody is just describing 516 00:25:54.740 --> 00:25:56.259 what's called the heat death of the universe. And the 517 00:25:56.299 --> 00:25:59.039 answer is yes. The answer is that the, the, the 518 00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:04.140 universe is slowing down in the sense that, um, It's 519 00:26:04.200 --> 00:26:06.019 not so much that matter can't be destroyed. 520 00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:06.380 It can. 521 00:26:06.420 --> 00:26:08.829 It can be converted into energy. Matter and energy are 522 00:26:09.150 --> 00:26:12.250 two sides of the same coin. That famous equation, hopefully 523 00:26:12.269 --> 00:26:13.609 the only one you ever have to deal with in life, 524 00:26:14.069 --> 00:26:16.609 unless you want to be a scientist, is energy equals 525 00:26:16.710 --> 00:26:19.250 mass times the speed of light squared. Good old Albert Einstein. 526 00:26:19.589 --> 00:26:20.490 E equals MC squared. 527 00:26:20.509 --> 00:26:23.299 That's most people's first equation they learn in elementary school, 528 00:26:23.319 --> 00:26:24.559 even before you know what it means. 529 00:26:24.579 --> 00:26:25.779 It's your elementary school equation. 530 00:26:26.059 --> 00:26:26.200 Yeah. 531 00:26:27.480 --> 00:26:29.920 So you can destroy matter. You can make it into energy. 532 00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:32.180 And you can make energy into matter. That's what we 533 00:26:32.220 --> 00:26:35.680 do in particle accelerators. We get things going with such 534 00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:38.609 high energy. When things collide, there's so much energy around, 535 00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:41.609 it actually creates new matter. That's how you find new 536 00:26:41.650 --> 00:26:46.950 types of particles. So energy and matter are equivalent. But 537 00:26:47.930 --> 00:26:50.849 absolutely what's happening is that in the early universe, there 538 00:26:50.869 --> 00:26:54.710 were things that were much higher temperature, much higher energy. Stars, 539 00:26:54.769 --> 00:26:57.329 for example, are an example of something that's a very 540 00:26:57.490 --> 00:27:05.160 low entropy. Stars create very high energy radiation. And over time, yes, 541 00:27:05.380 --> 00:27:10.660 I mean, every time you basically generate heat, I mean, 542 00:27:10.680 --> 00:27:13.680 if sunlight comes down, it's a high energy photon, hits 543 00:27:13.720 --> 00:27:17.079 the earth, warms things up. What's released, the heat is 544 00:27:17.119 --> 00:27:20.079 a lower energy type of light. You've lost energy. You've 545 00:27:20.099 --> 00:27:22.180 made from a high energy particle of light. Now it's 546 00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:25.920 a lower energy type of light. And so eventually the universe, 547 00:27:26.059 --> 00:27:28.380 all of the photons that were high energy are going 548 00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:31.410 to hit things, get absorbed by things, make things warm, 549 00:27:31.430 --> 00:27:34.690 get re-emitted, and they're going to lose energy over time. 550 00:27:35.549 --> 00:27:38.650 And so yes, the universe is running down. And eventually 551 00:27:38.670 --> 00:27:41.710 we're going to get to a point where there's nothing left, 552 00:27:41.750 --> 00:27:44.559 but very low energy photons, you know, photons that are 553 00:27:44.599 --> 00:27:47.779 so low energy, they're probably not even detectable. And then 554 00:27:47.819 --> 00:27:51.710 it's sort of anybody's guess as to, you know, does 555 00:27:51.769 --> 00:27:55.279 time and space exist anymore when there's really, everything is 556 00:27:55.319 --> 00:27:58.000 just the same temperature. A very, very low temperature is 557 00:27:58.039 --> 00:27:59.380 the only thing that the universe has. 558 00:28:00.019 --> 00:28:02.359 So it's a misnomer to call it a heat death 559 00:28:02.819 --> 00:28:05.559 if it's actually a cold death. 560 00:28:05.579 --> 00:28:06.640 It gets cooler and cooler. 561 00:28:06.660 --> 00:28:07.039 Yeah. 562 00:28:07.180 --> 00:28:10.059 Yeah. I mean, it's the heat that's dying. 563 00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:11.500 Yeah. 564 00:28:12.309 --> 00:28:17.460 It's the heat that's just like, oh, go away out there. Yeah. 565 00:28:17.700 --> 00:28:23.450 Just go on without me. Plus the expanding universe also drops, 566 00:28:23.490 --> 00:28:24.619 dropping the temperature with it. 567 00:28:24.750 --> 00:28:24.930 Right. 568 00:28:25.390 --> 00:28:25.789 Absolutely. 569 00:28:25.809 --> 00:28:28.210 You got a photon going through expanding space and think about, 570 00:28:28.269 --> 00:28:30.809 you know, draw a squiggly line on a piece of 571 00:28:30.849 --> 00:28:33.559 elastic and pull the elastic. And then that, that wavelength 572 00:28:33.579 --> 00:28:36.140 drops down, you lose energy. You know, I mean, it's, it's, 573 00:28:36.299 --> 00:28:37.539 it's really kind of as simple as that. 574 00:28:37.660 --> 00:28:39.920 Wait, wait, just to be precise, the wavelength gets longer. 575 00:28:40.599 --> 00:28:41.519 The wavelength gets longer. 576 00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:42.220 That's right. Yes. 577 00:28:42.259 --> 00:28:43.720 And that's a lower energy wavelength. 578 00:28:43.789 --> 00:28:44.329 Lower energy. 579 00:28:44.420 --> 00:28:44.990 So it drops down. 580 00:28:45.009 --> 00:28:46.769 The wavelength gets longer, the frequency drops. 581 00:28:47.109 --> 00:28:47.349 Right. 582 00:28:47.690 --> 00:28:51.349 And if I may, what Michelle just described is exactly 583 00:28:51.490 --> 00:28:55.769 how

the warming of the planet happens. High energy comes in, 584 00:28:55.890 --> 00:29:00.819 pierces our atmosphere, becomes lower energy and a longer wavelength, 585 00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:05.539 which is trapped by greenhouse gases. And that's how we 586 00:29:05.599 --> 00:29:08.799 heat up. Because as everybody has learned from Neil- The 587 00:29:08.980 --> 00:29:13.519 atmosphere isn't hot. The ground gets hot and radiates heat 588 00:29:13.779 --> 00:29:16.660 back into the atmosphere. And that is the cycle that 589 00:29:16.700 --> 00:29:18.779 creates a warming of the planet. Just so that you 590 00:29:18.819 --> 00:29:20.380 guys know that it's real. 591 00:29:21.549 --> 00:29:25.789 Okay? It's real. And send $ 5 to Chuck's tenant campaign. 592 00:29:25.809 --> 00:29:29.990 By the way, just to be precise, there is a 593 00:29:30.029 --> 00:29:33.150 layer of the atmosphere that does absorb light directly from 594 00:29:33.190 --> 00:29:38.279 the sun. And that's the thermosphere where the ultraviolet gets 595 00:29:38.319 --> 00:29:42.539 absorbed and by the ozone. And so that there is 596 00:29:42.579 --> 00:29:45.480 a layer that is hotter, but we're not experiencing that 597 00:29:45.609 --> 00:29:46.869 right down here. Right. 598 00:29:47.049 --> 00:29:47.930 Oh yeah. That's cool. 599 00:29:47.970 --> 00:29:50.210 Yeah. The hottest part of the troposphere is right above 600 00:29:50.250 --> 00:29:52.569 earth's surface. Right above earth's surface. Okay. 601 00:29:52.990 --> 00:29:53.509 Nice. 602 00:29:53.789 --> 00:29:54.430 Yeah. 603 00:29:54.450 --> 00:29:58.420 Yeah. Right. And what's the part, see now, now, This 604 00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:01.009 is where the explainers are all swirling in my head. 605 00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:07.309 What is the part where the excitation of the molecules 606 00:30:07.809 --> 00:30:11.349 is such that it's, we say it's cold, but it's 607 00:30:11.609 --> 00:30:13.049 actually hotter? 608 00:30:13.769 --> 00:30:16.579 Chuck, could it be that there's a layer, upper layers 609 00:30:16.619 --> 00:30:22.619 of the atmosphere where the particles themselves are high energy, 610 00:30:22.940 --> 00:30:25.440 but there isn't many of them so that you don't 611 00:30:25.740 --> 00:30:29.190 feel that temperature? that you otherwise would. 612 00:30:29.210 --> 00:30:29.990 That's what I'm saying. 613 00:30:30.009 --> 00:30:33.250 So the concept of temperature kind of loses practical meaning. 614 00:30:32.990 --> 00:30:36.150 There, right? Okay, I said it like a- It could 615 00:30:36.170 --> 00:30:38.839 be what you're thinking about. Yeah, that's exactly what I 616 00:30:38.859 --> 00:30:41.119 was thinking about, but I said it like a dumb two-year-old. 617 00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:42.440 No, no. 618 00:30:42.460 --> 00:30:48.920 Michelle, if I flew you through the sun's corona, which 619 00:30:49.059 --> 00:30:52.450 is 5 million degrees, would you feel that given how 620 00:30:52.569 --> 00:30:56.049 low density the particles are that have such high temperature? 621 00:30:56.710 --> 00:30:58.789 We are really, really lucky the answer is no, because 622 00:30:58.829 --> 00:31:01.109 I mean, the corona is one thing, but also let's remember, 623 00:31:01.190 --> 00:31:03.609 I mean, we actually, our whole solar system is in 624 00:31:03.650 --> 00:31:06.170 this hot bubble of gas in the Milky Way galaxy. 625 00:31:07.329 --> 00:31:09.470 Maybe there was a star that exploded here billions of 626 00:31:09.509 --> 00:31:12.410 years ago, but the temperature of the gas we're going 627 00:31:12.430 --> 00:31:14.779 through is in the millions of degrees in our galaxy. 628 00:31:15.130 --> 00:31:19.119 The thing is, the gas between the stars is so thin. 629 00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:21.779 It's like, OK, there goes there goes a proton. You know, 630 00:31:21.799 --> 00:31:24.539 there goes an electron. You know, I mean, there's so 631 00:31:24.599 --> 00:31:27.440 few particles that it doesn't really impart any heat to you. 632 00:31:27.789 --> 00:31:30.410 I mean, yes, the average speed of these high energy 633 00:31:30.450 --> 00:31:34.009 particles is equivalent to being, you know, millions of degree gas. 634 00:31:34.430 --> 00:31:37.630 And just like Neil said, so the sun's corona is 635 00:31:37.650 --> 00:31:42.309 this extended atmosphere of very hot gas. We have a spacecraft. 636 00:31:42.349 --> 00:31:44.809 NASA has a spacecraft called the Parker Solar Probe. that 637 00:31:44.849 --> 00:31:48.559 is orbiting well within the solar corona right now. You 638 00:31:48.599 --> 00:31:51.240 better believe it would not be a live returning data 639 00:31:51.400 --> 00:31:56.809 if it really felt like 500 degrees. So the analogy 640 00:31:56.869 --> 00:31:59.549 we used to use is when you think about everybody 641 00:31:59.589 --> 00:32:01.400 who's done some baking, you get your oven up to 642 00:32:01.400 --> 00:32:01.660 500 degrees. 643 00:32:02.619 --> 00:32:05.000 That's some serious baking if you're baking at 500 degrees. 644 00:32:05.859 --> 00:32:06.759 Pizza. 645 00:32:06.779 --> 00:32:07.869 We're going for pizza ovens here. 646 00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:11.630 Yeah, yeah. You're a pizza shop on the corner of 647 00:32:11.670 --> 00:32:13.569 Lenox Avenue, 125th Street. 648 00:32:13.589 --> 00:32:13.930 Yeah. 649 00:32:13.950 --> 00:32:16.089 If you have a 500 degree oven. Okay. 650 00:32:16.109 --> 00:32:17.450 So if you open the oven and you just stick 651 00:32:17.470 --> 00:32:21.380 your hand in, your hand is not actually feeling like 652 00:32:21.420 --> 00:32:23.119 it's 500 degrees all of a sudden. If you were 653 00:32:23.140 --> 00:32:25.359 to touch like a metal part of the oven, if 654 00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:28.319 you were to touch the rack, then you'd burn your hand. Because, 655 00:32:28.339 --> 00:32:29.640 I mean, all of a sudden now you have a 656 00:32:29.740 --> 00:32:31.289 denser object. You've got the metal. 657 00:32:31.609

--> 00:32:31.789 Yeah. 658 00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:33.759 A little bit of a thing about the Parker Solar Probe. 659 00:32:33.819 --> 00:32:37.829 It's another incredible person, Eugene Parker. And he was the 660 00:32:37.849 --> 00:32:40.369 person that discovered this wind of high energy particles from 661 00:32:40.410 --> 00:32:41.390 the sun, the solar wind. 662 00:32:41.650 --> 00:32:42.650 The solar wind. 663 00:32:43.029 --> 00:32:45.769 Yeah, a fabulous launch. I'm glad somebody told me that 664 00:32:45.789 --> 00:32:48.180 a Delta Heavy looks like it explodes on the pad 665 00:32:48.240 --> 00:32:50.000 before the rocket comes up. I was at that launch. 666 00:32:50.019 --> 00:32:54.119 It was amazing. The whole idea, the surface of the 667 00:32:54.160 --> 00:32:58.119 sun is only about, say, roughly like 10,000 degrees Fahrenheit. 668 00:32:58.559 --> 00:33:00.130 But as soon as you get off the surface, the 669 00:33:00.150 --> 00:33:03.650 gas becomes millions of degrees hot. I mean, this was 670 00:33:03.670 --> 00:33:07.660 a Big mystery. And how does the sun do that? 671 00:33:07.700 --> 00:33:10.599 I mean, normally, if you've got a hot campfire, the 672 00:33:10.619 --> 00:33:13.210 farther away you walk, the cooler it seems. Why does 673 00:33:13.230 --> 00:33:15.569 the temperature go up? And the Parker Solar Probe has 674 00:33:15.609 --> 00:33:20.190 really helped answer that. There's all of these complicated accelerations 675 00:33:20.210 --> 00:33:22.759 due to magnetic fields around the sun. The particles pick 676 00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:25.700 up speed. There are shocks in there. So, I mean, 677 00:33:26.119 --> 00:33:28.960 we're figuring out how the sun works. It's not something 678 00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:32.380 we know until we go there near the sun, fly 679 00:33:32.420 --> 00:33:34.569 around in this corona, and see what's going on. 680 00:33:34.910 --> 00:33:37.069 And look at that. You're getting all of that for 681 00:33:37.109 --> 00:33:38.869 a lousy $ 6 billion. 682 00:33:39.230 --> 00:33:39.710 Okay. 683 00:33:39.869 --> 00:33:42.549 What the hell is wrong with you people? 684 00:33:44.430 --> 00:33:46.700 Okay, Chuck, that's his daily, I got to blow a 685 00:33:46.720 --> 00:33:49.460 gasket once a day reaction. 686 00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:51.599 It's worth it. It's worth blowing a gasket over. 687 00:33:51.980 --> 00:33:55.140 If memory serves, the Parker Solar Probe set a speed record. 688 00:33:55.599 --> 00:33:56.099 Oh, yeah. 689 00:33:56.299 --> 00:33:58.380 It goes over 400,000 miles an hour. 690 00:33:59.140 --> 00:34:00.259 Yeah. 691 00:34:00.380 --> 00:34:00.920 Wow. 692 00:34:01.859 --> 00:34:02.079 Yeah. 693 00:34:02.279 --> 00:34:03.769 I keep having to look that up because I don't 694 00:34:03.809 --> 00:34:05.069 believe it. And then I look it up again. 695 00:34:05.089 --> 00:34:06.829 You don't believe it. Because it gets pulled in by 696 00:34:06.849 --> 00:34:10.570 the sun's gravity. That's right. And there it is, 400,000 697 00:34:10.570 --> 00:34:11.090 miles an hour. 698 00:34:11.469 --> 00:34:13.750 Wow. Amazing. 699 00:34:14.630 --> 00:34:15.010 All right. 700 00:34:15.070 --> 00:34:16.130 Well, let's move on. 701 00:34:16.150 --> 00:34:18.190 I have a few more questions. Let's try to fit 702 00:34:18.230 --> 00:34:21.429 in a bunch more. So let's tighten up the answers 703 00:34:21.469 --> 00:34:22.559 and see how many we can fit in. 704 00:34:22.570 --> 00:34:25.250 Let's just do the questions, and then we just have 705 00:34:25.269 --> 00:34:28.639 to have Michelle back to ask more. That's all. I'm 706 00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:31.440 always here. That's right. Yeah, we're not going anywhere. I mean, 707 00:34:31.480 --> 00:34:33.519 why are these people just like, you didn't get to 708 00:34:33.539 --> 00:34:35.000 my question? 709 00:34:35.019 --> 00:34:35.559 What? What? 710 00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:37.820 You got information we don't? We're getting canceled? 711 00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:38.900 What do you know? 712 00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:41.360 What do you know that we don't know? You know, 713 00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:42.380 we could do this again. 714 00:34:42.619 --> 00:34:43.800 I'm always up for questions. 715 00:34:44.139 --> 00:34:48.619 All right, here we go. This is Tristan Breaker, who says, 716 00:34:49.059 --> 00:34:52.960 Good evening, Dr. Tyson, Dr. Thaler, Lord Nice. Tristan here 717 00:34:53.099 --> 00:34:59.159 from Utah. Considering gravity is caused by the curvature of space-time, hypothetically, 718 00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:03.500 could gravitational waves from two separate sources intersect, forming a 719 00:35:03.539 --> 00:35:10.960 constructive interference pattern combining their amplitudes? If so... Could this 720 00:35:11.079 --> 00:35:14.550 create regions in space where the curvature of spacetime is 721 00:35:14.659 --> 00:35:18.150 great enough to produce a gravitational field as though a 722 00:35:18.210 --> 00:35:21.849 celestial body were present even though nothing is there? Additionally, 723 00:35:22.210 --> 00:35:26.550 wouldn't the crest of the waves create an inverse gravitational field? 724 00:35:26.829 --> 00:35:31.449 Could spacetime curve in the opposite direction, imagining the common 725 00:35:31.610 --> 00:35:37.030 fabric of gravity of demonstration, for instance, producing a repulsive 726 00:35:37.170 --> 00:35:41.989 field rather than an attractive one. My heartfelt thanks to 727 00:35:42.050 --> 00:35:46.679 you for bringing awareness to the wonders of the universe. Well, Christian, 728 00:35:47.300 --> 00:35:49.679 all I can say is, first of all, I need 729 00:35:49.699 --> 00:35:55.199 some of that weed you smoking. Because, man, that is 730 00:35:55.239 --> 00:35:56.579 some serious stuff. 731 00:35:58.179 --> 00:36:02.300 Maybe check with our producers. Maybe for questions like that, 732 00:36:02.719 --> 00:36:05.219 we should create a little certificate that we send back 733

00:36:05.300 --> 00:36:07.980 out to them for questions that are above and beyond 734 00:36:08.019 --> 00:36:08.719 the call of duty. 735 00:36:10.679 --> 00:36:12.480 We've had two so far in this show. 736 00:36:12.500 --> 00:36:16.820 It's a deep thought question, right? That's a deep thought question. Michelle, 737 00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:19.599 are you up on gravitational waves? What's the latest there? 738 00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:21.559 Oh, I love gravitational waves. Are you kidding? I was 739 00:36:21.579 --> 00:36:24.949 a postdoc at Caltech. I better love gravitational waves. So, 740 00:36:25.610 --> 00:36:28.469 oh my God, let me just say how impressed I 741 00:36:28.670 --> 00:36:31.809 am with gravitational wave detection, because this is something when 742 00:36:31.829 --> 00:36:34.250 I was a postdoc at Caltech, it was a big deal. 743 00:36:34.269 --> 00:36:39.090 The LIGO project, the Laser Interferometric Gravitational Wave Observatory was 744 00:36:39.130 --> 00:36:43.070 something that Caltech was involved in. And I honestly, I 745 00:36:43.230 --> 00:36:46.329 talk about my skeptical nature. I was like, they're never 746 00:36:46.369 --> 00:36:50.349 gonna detect these bastards. I mean, this is really, so 747 00:36:50.409 --> 00:36:53.510 LIGO at the time, there were two facilities. There are 748 00:36:53.550 --> 00:36:56.619 now more. You've got a you've got a laser that's 749 00:36:56.679 --> 00:37:00.210 about about two miles long and another one going out 750 00:37:00.230 --> 00:37:03.829 in a 90 degree angle. There we go. In a corner. 751 00:37:04.230 --> 00:37:08.639 So two miles each direction. And those lasers, you know, 752 00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:10.980 are supposed to be exactly the same length. Imagine trying 753 00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:13.440 to calibrate that, you know, and so the lasers are 754 00:37:13.460 --> 00:37:15.929 going back and forth, bouncing around. And then if a 755 00:37:15.969 --> 00:37:19.760 gravitational wave comes by, a gravitational wave is literally a 756 00:37:19.800 --> 00:37:22.460 wave in space and time. And so space contracts in 757 00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:24.619 one direction. And all of a sudden, the two lasers 758 00:37:24.659 --> 00:37:28.579 are no longer the same length. They're different because space contracted. 759 00:37:29.239 --> 00:37:32.110 And so the person with the question is absolutely right. 760 00:37:32.119 --> 00:37:35.309 That's what gravitational waves do. The thing that makes it 761 00:37:35.510 --> 00:37:40.090 mind blowing that we detected these things is they're tiny. 762 00:37:40.869 --> 00:37:46.250 Luckily for us. I mean, they're a thousand times smaller 763 00:37:46.610 --> 00:37:49.610 than a proton. And to give you a sense of that, 764 00:37:49.630 --> 00:37:51.949 I mean, not that the human brain can even get that, 765 00:37:52.010 --> 00:37:53.329 and the human brain's not going to get the next 766 00:37:53.429 --> 00:37:56.389 one either, but it's the equivalent of measuring from us 767 00:37:56.409 --> 00:37:59.489 to the nearest star, Alpha Centauri, about four light years. 768 00:37:59.800 --> 00:38:03.119 A light year is about six trillion miles. Damn. You're 769 00:38:03.139 --> 00:38:07.219 going on 24 trillion miles. That would be the equivalent 770 00:38:07.239 --> 00:38:09.420 of the distance between us and the nearest star varying 771 00:38:09.460 --> 00:38:10.659 by the thickness of a human hair. 772 00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:12.280 Wow. 773 00:38:12.840 --> 00:38:14.690 They're trying to measure that. 774 00:38:15.869 --> 00:38:16.449 Holy. 775 00:38:17.469 --> 00:38:18.969 Are you allowed to swear on this podcast? 776 00:38:19.170 --> 00:38:20.710 I'll do it for you. 777 00:38:20.750 --> 00:38:22.409 Holy shit. 778 00:38:24.699 --> 00:38:25.900 I could go more than that probably. 779 00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:27.880 I could swear all day. 780 00:38:28.860 --> 00:38:31.360 You know, I did not think they'd be able to 781 00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:31.739 do this. 782 00:38:32.739 --> 00:38:35.519 And in fact, Michelle, I would, you know, the Nobel prize, 783 00:38:35.579 --> 00:38:39.829 which was ultimately given to the project. For me, I 784 00:38:39.869 --> 00:38:43.340 view that as not only, a prize for the scientific result, 785 00:38:43.699 --> 00:38:48.579 but for the engineering that enabled it. Oh my gosh. Yeah. 786 00:38:48.980 --> 00:38:54.110 With that measurement being so infinitesimally small, how do they 787 00:38:54.269 --> 00:38:56.489 know that somebody didn't just bump the table? 788 00:38:57.150 --> 00:38:59.849 Absolutely. So, I mean, so this is the thing, right? 789 00:38:59.909 --> 00:39:03.429 I mean, somebody bumped a table in the next state, right? 790 00:39:03.489 --> 00:39:04.690 In Australia. 791 00:39:12.090 --> 00:39:14.389 So there's, I mean, there's all of these, you know, 792 00:39:14.409 --> 00:39:16.800 there's all this noise in the detector, right? The detector, 793 00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:19.000 like you said, there's all kinds of noise going on 794 00:39:19.019 --> 00:39:21.179 in the detector. And then this, I was just making 795 00:39:21.219 --> 00:39:23.719 sure I had my dates and everything. So this would 796 00:39:23.739 --> 00:39:25.969 have been in September of 2015. 797 00:39:25.969 --> 00:39:30.050 And just to clarify, when a scientist uses the word noise... 798 00:39:30.679 --> 00:39:34.730 they're not necessarily and almost hardly ever are talking about sound. 799 00:39:35.119 --> 00:39:41.760 Yeah, they're not in the lab going, shut your ass. 800 00:39:41.949 --> 00:39:42.550 Up. Who knows? 801 00:39:42.789 --> 00:39:43.869 Maybe that's what the detector was saying. 802 00:39:43.889 --> 00:39:44.829 Cut down the noise. 803 00:39:47.340 --> 00:39:49.900 No, we're talking about sources of interference to the signal 804 00:39:49.920 --> 00:39:52.800 you're trying to measure, no matter what those sources are. Right. 805 00:39:52.820 -->

00:39:53.880 So go on, Michelle. 806 00:39:53.900 --> 00:39:57.260 There's all kinds of little variations. I mean, the lasers 807 00:39:57.300 --> 00:39:59.650 are under vacuum, but there's all kinds of things happening. 808 00:40:00.110 --> 00:40:06.130 So in September of 2015, there's all kinds of noise. 809 00:40:06.150 --> 00:40:08.090 There's all kinds of variation. But then all of a sudden, 810 00:40:08.150 --> 00:40:13.000 one of the detectors goes, boom, just like that. And 811 00:40:13.019 --> 00:40:16.099 then at the speed of light between one detector, which 812 00:40:16.139 --> 00:40:17.780 was in Louisiana, and the other one was in Oregon, 813 00:40:18.219 --> 00:40:21.989 The same pattern, wumba, wumba, wumba, boom, goes off. And 814 00:40:22.050 --> 00:40:25.610 it was absolutely unquestionable. It was the same pattern, the 815 00:40:25.650 --> 00:40:28.909 same frequency at the speed of light. Gravitational waves travel 816 00:40:28.929 --> 00:40:31.309 at the speed of light from one detector. And people 817 00:40:31.329 --> 00:40:32.260 were like, Nobel Prize. 818 00:40:32.340 --> 00:40:33.400 Yeah, that's fantastic. 819 00:40:33.639 --> 00:40:37.360 Oh, my God. But, I mean, let me just say, 820 00:40:37.380 --> 00:40:40.780 because I want to say what that event was. There 821 00:40:40.820 --> 00:40:46.039 were two black holes there. 1.4 billion light years away. 822 00:40:46.340 --> 00:40:49.940 This event happened 1.4 billion years ago. The black holes 823 00:40:49.980 --> 00:40:50.760 were both on the order. 824 00:40:50.780 --> 00:40:52.800 In another galaxy. In another galaxy. 825 00:40:52.929 --> 00:40:54.510 Yeah, it was way out of our galaxy. 826 00:40:54.530 --> 00:40:55.489 Far, far away, by the way. 827 00:40:56.369 --> 00:40:58.869 Yeah, far, far away. Yes. 828 00:40:58.909 --> 00:40:59.409 Thank you, Chuck. 829 00:41:00.989 --> 00:41:01.869 Those two black. 830 00:41:01.670 --> 00:41:03.369 Holes were both about- It's far, far away. 831 00:41:03.389 --> 00:41:06.530 It's far away. Yeah, yeah. 1.4 billion light years. Don't 832 00:41:06.550 --> 00:41:09.150 need to worry about it. Yeah, yeah. That's right. You know, 833 00:41:09.309 --> 00:41:11.280 there were two black holes that were roughly 30 times 834 00:41:11.320 --> 00:41:13.949 the mass of the sun apiece. We caught them in 835 00:41:14.030 --> 00:41:18.170 only the last two seconds, 0.2, two-tenths of a second 836 00:41:18.449 --> 00:41:20.909 of them spiraling together and merging into a bigger black hole. 837 00:41:21.719 --> 00:41:26.659 And in that 0.2 seconds, they accelerated from 30% the 838 00:41:26.699 --> 00:41:29.760 speed of light to 60% the speed of light. Black 839 00:41:29.780 --> 00:41:33.559 holes 30 times the mass of the sun. And about 840 00:41:33.699 --> 00:41:36.000 two times the mass of the sun was converted into 841 00:41:36.039 --> 00:41:42.159 pure energy. In 0.2 seconds. This is an unbelievable thing. 842 00:41:42.199 --> 00:41:45.280

It's real. That is a monster proportions that the human 843 00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:48.679 brain can't go any, I have no idea what that is. 844 00:41:49.300 --> 00:41:50.599 And it happened and we measured it. 845 00:41:51.099 --> 00:41:54.639 Michelle, wasn't that the most energetic event in the universe 846 00:41:54.739 --> 00:41:56.889 in that moment? I think it had to be. 847 00:41:56.929 --> 00:42:00.190 It was more energy than every star in every galaxy 848 00:42:00.250 --> 00:42:01.369 in the observable universe. 849 00:42:01.530 --> 00:42:01.909 Wow. 850 00:42:02.070 --> 00:42:04.489 Yeah. In that 0.2 seconds, right? In that 0.2 seconds. 851 00:42:06.949 --> 00:42:08.269 Jeez Louise. 852 00:42:08.670 --> 00:42:12.949 Okay, so tell us about, so if this happens with 853 00:42:13.010 --> 00:42:17.659 some frequency, no pun intended there, then two waves that 854 00:42:17.800 --> 00:42:21.219 do intersect, what can we say about them? Do they 855 00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:28.219 magnify any kind of gravitational disturbance in the space-time? What 856 00:42:28.260 --> 00:42:31.769 can we say about what is happening? Because when you 857 00:42:31.789 --> 00:42:35.469 drop two pebbles in a pond- you see interference patterns 858 00:42:35.530 --> 00:42:37.590 with the peak gets higher and the valleys get lower. 859 00:42:37.789 --> 00:42:42.329 So it exaggerates what's there. Presumably, we can expect just 860 00:42:42.389 --> 00:42:43.670 that same thing, can't we? 861 00:42:44.170 --> 00:42:45.449 Yeah, I think the answer is yes, but it's at 862 00:42:45.489 --> 00:42:50.250 a tiny, tiny, tiny scale. And also, I mean, this 863 00:42:50.269 --> 00:42:53.869 was a fantastic energetic event that the gravitational wave detector 864 00:42:53.889 --> 00:42:56.110 was able to detect this event. But there's also a 865 00:42:56.170 --> 00:42:59.929 background of gravitational waves, binary stars going around each other, 866 00:43:00.389 --> 00:43:02.889 all kinds of things. I'm actually making tiny little gravitational 867 00:43:02.929 --> 00:43:07.550 waves right now So, you know, again, we come to 868 00:43:07.610 --> 00:43:08.730 this idea of noise. 869 00:43:09.369 --> 00:43:11.869 Wait, you were making gravitational waves because you were lifting 870 00:43:11.889 --> 00:43:12.630 your hands up and down. 871 00:43:12.650 --> 00:43:15.849 A mass is moving. There's something moving. There's mass moving around. 872 00:43:15.869 --> 00:43:17.650 That's right. It's really, really small. 873 00:43:18.010 --> 00:43:20.429 It's not that you have special powers. You're just moving 874 00:43:20.449 --> 00:43:21.949 your body, just to be clear. 875 00:43:22.010 --> 00:43:23.679 Yeah. 876 00:43:23.699 --> 00:43:26.159 That'd be a great superpower, you know, making gravitational waves. 877 00:43:26.179 --> 00:43:28.579 But anyway, yeah. So the answer, I think, is yes. 878 00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:32.300 But I don't think there's going to be any organized 879 00:43:33.320 --> 00:43:36.489 effect of that. Because there's just, I mean, think about 880 00:43:37.289 --> 00:43:40.269 waves on a giant lake, a giant ocean. There's ripples 881 00:43:40.309 --> 00:43:43.969 going every which way. And yes, they are interfering when 882 00:43:44.170 --> 00:43:48.269 they add together or they can, I think all that's happening. 883 00:43:49.110 --> 00:43:51.380 But I don't think that has any measurable effect on 884 00:43:51.420 --> 00:43:53.960 what's going on in the universe. It's tiny. 885 00:43:54.039 --> 00:43:57.659 So in Tristan's question, it was, would it be able 886 00:43:57.760 --> 00:44:00.780 to perhaps give the appearance of a celestial body being 887 00:44:00.820 --> 00:44:03.110 there when none is there because of the, Curbature of 888 00:44:03.190 --> 00:44:06.760 space-time itself and you're saying that that's not gonna happen. 889 00:44:07.030 --> 00:44:10.719 Okay, cool The energetics are too small. So just to 890 00:44:10.760 --> 00:44:15.219 be clear it gave off more energy Than all stars 891 00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:18.139 combined in the universe over those point two seconds, but 892 00:44:18.159 --> 00:44:21.719 then that energy in the form of gravitational waves moved 893 00:44:23.380 --> 00:44:24.980 How many billions of miles to reach. 894 00:44:24.900 --> 00:44:26.880 Us 1.4 billion light 1.4 billion much so. 895 00:44:26.780 --> 00:44:32.769 It's been diluted over that distance and to the low 896 00:44:32.889 --> 00:44:37.260 energies that were ultimately detected in LIGO, right? I mean, 897 00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:41.619 just think of the volume. Because anybody at this distance 898 00:44:41.920 --> 00:44:45.170 in any direction from those colliding black holes could make 899 00:44:45.210 --> 00:44:49.650 this measure. So that energy is expanding through the entire 900 00:44:49.730 --> 00:44:52.099 universe and we're just catching our one little piece of it. 901 00:44:52.630 --> 00:44:55.019 What was that event like? I mean, because if you're 902 00:44:55.059 --> 00:44:58.730 close to that event, I mean, that must have ripped 903 00:44:58.789 --> 00:45:03.190 apart any matter within quite a large distance. I mean, 904 00:45:03.210 --> 00:45:06.250 I'm sure we could have somebody do the math on that. So, 905 00:45:06.610 --> 00:45:10.150 I mean, I don't think there would be, it can't 906 00:45:10.349 --> 00:45:11.989 make it seem like there's a star there. This is 907 00:45:12.030 --> 00:45:13.289 not a solution for dark matter. 908 00:45:13.329 --> 00:45:13.670 Sorry. 909 00:45:14.090 --> 00:45:15.690 It's not a good thing. Nope, that's. 910 00:45:17.489 --> 00:45:17.809 Lame. 911 00:45:20.929 --> 00:45:21.230 Ready? 912 00:45:21.750 --> 00:45:26.949 Do you harbor questions about the universe? Some long-held Bit 913 00:45:26.989 --> 00:45:32.420 of cosmic curiosity lingering within you or questions about anything 914 00:45:33.440 --> 00:45:38.019 at all. You can become a Patreon

supporter of StarTalk. 915 00:45:38.719 --> 00:45:41.659 You have access to our exclusive question line on our website. 916 00:45:42.500 --> 00:45:45.420 Those are where we draw our questions for our cosmic. 917 00:45:45.949 --> 00:45:49.869 Some of the most extreme objects in the universe. StarTalk 918 00:45:49.929 --> 00:45:54.289 is a work in progress where we... Every month, come 919 00:45:54.329 --> 00:45:57.130 up with some new way, some new idea, some new 920 00:45:57.250 --> 00:46:00.699 understanding of how to bring the universe down to earth. 921 00:46:01.400 --> 00:46:03.579 We could not do that without your support. 922 00:46:04.460 --> 00:46:07.260 Thank you. And as always, keep looking up. 923 00:46:08.670 --> 00:46:12.190 This is Rachel Ambrose who says, Rachel here from Texas. 924 00:46:12.650 --> 00:46:16.199 I loved Michelle's Big Think interview. It was the first 925 00:46:16.260 --> 00:46:19.840 time I heard someone articulate the profound weirdness of reality 926 00:46:20.179 --> 00:46:24.500 in a way that completely resonated with how I have 927 00:46:24.679 --> 00:46:28.559 always felt but could never adequately explain. And I just 928 00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:33.030 appreciated that so much. Thank you, Michelle. My question is 929 00:46:33.090 --> 00:46:38.010 about neutron stars. I am confused why the high-energy fast 930 00:46:38.070 --> 00:46:42.150 radio bursts, the FRBs, come to us in the form 931 00:46:42.230 --> 00:46:47.909 of low-energy radio frequencies rather than X-rays or gamma rays. 932 00:46:48.349 --> 00:46:53.769 What mechanism causes such a high-energy event to manifest as 933 00:46:53.949 --> 00:46:55.130 radio light? 934 00:46:55.389 --> 00:46:56.789 Ooh. 935 00:46:56.849 --> 00:46:59.570 So this has built in the knowledge that radio waves 936 00:46:59.650 --> 00:47:00.829 are lower-energy light. 937 00:47:00.909 --> 00:47:01.150 Energy. 938 00:47:01.480 --> 00:47:04.530 Then X-rays or gamma rays. And if it's a high 939 00:47:04.590 --> 00:47:08.550 energy phenomenon, why is it wasting itself with radio waves? 940 00:47:08.670 --> 00:47:14.969 So Michelle, you answer that one, Michelle. Yeah, right. 941 00:47:15.550 --> 00:47:16.010 Okay. 942 00:47:16.090 --> 00:47:18.369 So yeah, I at least know a little bit about that. 943 00:47:18.389 --> 00:47:19.829 I mean, as I said, I mean, one of the 944 00:47:19.869 --> 00:47:23.610 missions I absolutely adore is called NICER, the Neutron Star 945 00:47:23.650 --> 00:47:26.199 Interior Composition Explorer. It's on the space station. It's a 946 00:47:26.219 --> 00:47:30.510 Goddard-run mission. Fantastic. It's about the size of a washing machine. Again, 947 00:47:30.590 --> 00:47:35.050 not an expensive mission. And it's able to actually get 948 00:47:35.429 --> 00:47:38.250 X-rays in this case, X-rays from neutron stars. And it 949 00:47:38.329 --> 00:47:41.510 times the arrival of the X-rays so precisely, we can 950 00:47:41.530 --> 00:47:43.489 make a map of what the surface of a neutron 951 00:47:43.530 --> 00:47:46.550 star is like. They're tiny. Neutron stars are only about 952 00:47:46.550 --> 00:47:50.030 20 miles across. They usually have about twice the mass 953 00:47:50.070 --> 00:47:55.119 of the sun. packed into 20 miles. These are extreme things, 954 00:47:55.179 --> 00:47:57.280 and they're real. I mean, we studied many of these. 955 00:47:58.099 --> 00:48:01.199 And they're so incredible. When you do a map of these, 956 00:48:01.260 --> 00:48:04.530 and they often are rotating very fast, you actually get 957 00:48:04.550 --> 00:48:08.369 this strange effect on the side of the map because 958 00:48:08.530 --> 00:48:12.070 light is bending around. There's so much mass. The curvature 959 00:48:12.090 --> 00:48:15.590 of space and time is so extreme. Two solar masses 960 00:48:15.650 --> 00:48:18.750 packed into 20 miles. that you actually can see behind 961 00:48:18.829 --> 00:48:20.710 a neutron star as well as in front, the light 962 00:48:20.769 --> 00:48:25.369 curves around it. And so, I mean, what an incredible 963 00:48:25.710 --> 00:48:27.030 real monster. 964 00:48:27.610 --> 00:48:29.949 So what you're saying is it has many properties that 965 00:48:29.989 --> 00:48:32.730 we would find with black holes in its distortion of 966 00:48:32.750 --> 00:48:35.510 the fabric of space and time. in their vicinity. 967 00:48:35.550 --> 00:48:37.610 In fact, the neutron star group at Goddard said that 968 00:48:37.650 --> 00:48:40.030 neutron stars are far more interesting than black holes because 969 00:48:40.070 --> 00:48:42.610 with black holes, you have this dark event horizon that 970 00:48:42.690 --> 00:48:44.590 nothing ever comes out of. You don't know what's going 971 00:48:44.650 --> 00:48:46.699 on in there. With neutron stars, you got the fricking 972 00:48:46.739 --> 00:48:47.659 thing right in front of you. 973 00:48:47.960 --> 00:48:48.400 It's very bright. 974 00:48:48.420 --> 00:48:50.679 It's still here with us. 975 00:48:50.860 --> 00:48:55.340 And you can study something that has such extreme conditions 976 00:48:55.719 --> 00:48:58.179 that there's no laboratory on earth we can even study 977 00:48:58.219 --> 00:49:00.650 what matter is like under these conditions. It's amazing. 978 00:49:00.949 --> 00:49:01.210 Wow. 979 00:49:02.010 --> 00:49:03.889 But yeah, OK, so going back to why it's radio waves, 980 00:49:04.389 --> 00:49:08.110 neutron stars definitely do emit high energy radiation. They're actually 981 00:49:08.130 --> 00:49:10.489 the source of what we think are gamma ray bursts, 982 00:49:10.650 --> 00:49:14.289 dangerous blasts of high energy radiation. We're using an X-ray 983 00:49:14.309 --> 00:49:17.329 telescope to observe these things. The surface of a neutron 984 00:49:17.349 --> 00:49:20.820 star is very hot. It definitely does. generate these high 985 00:49:20.840 --> 00:49:24.739 energy things. The way you get radio waves is something, Neil, 986

00:49:24.760 --> 00:49:26.320 I'm sure it's a favorite of yours too. It's a 987 00:49:26.360 --> 00:49:31.639 lovely thing called synchrotron radiation. And would you like to 988 00:49:31.659 --> 00:49:33.340 go ahead and talk about synchrotron radiation? 989 00:49:33.579 --> 00:49:36.909 Oh, as I understood it. No, as I understand it, 990 00:49:38.239 --> 00:49:40.940 The neutron star has to be magnetic, has to have 991 00:49:40.980 --> 00:49:42.039 a magnetic field. 992 00:49:42.059 --> 00:49:42.500 That's right. 993 00:49:42.900 --> 00:49:47.780 And as it rotates, it can accelerate electrons that are 994 00:49:48.280 --> 00:49:52.820 ambient in the environment. And you can accelerate electrons off 995 00:49:52.840 --> 00:49:57.809 of a magnetic field that will radiate radio waves. Yes. 996 00:49:57.829 --> 00:50:00.650 We call it synchrotron radiation. I think I accounted for 997 00:50:00.670 --> 00:50:01.630 that correctly. Is that correct? 998 00:50:02.250 --> 00:50:05.050 Yeah, I mean, the one thing that's perhaps something to 999 00:50:05.230 --> 00:50:07.369 mention about synchrotron radiation, I mean, so you've got a 1000 00:50:07.389 --> 00:50:09.510 couple of things going on. I mean, you also have, 1001 00:50:10.269 --> 00:50:12.949 you know, electrons are charged particles. They respond to a 1002 00:50:12.969 --> 00:50:16.630 magnetic field. They can actually be accelerated. Neutron stars have jets. 1003 00:50:17.750 --> 00:50:21.909 We see those as well. Also, when you get synchrotron 1004 00:50:21.969 --> 00:50:25.429 radiation happens largely when electrons spirals around a magnetic field. 1005 00:50:26.750 --> 00:50:28.889 Just by the act of spinning around, that's a form 1006 00:50:28.909 --> 00:50:29.250 of acceleration. 1007 00:50:29.269 --> 00:50:33.480 That's what it was. It creates its own frequency, spiral 1008 00:50:33.539 --> 00:50:36.960 frequency that is the radio wave. So what's fun about 1009 00:50:37.219 --> 00:50:42.000 the neutron star, just to summarize that, is different processes 1010 00:50:42.079 --> 00:50:45.260 within the environment of a neutron star give you different 1011 00:50:45.719 --> 00:50:49.019 bands of light that our different telescopes can participate in, 1012 00:50:49.449 --> 00:50:51.289 which is kind of fun. And then you can compare notes. 1013 00:50:51.940 --> 00:50:53.159 across different wavelengths of light. 1014 00:50:53.199 --> 00:50:55.380 And this is why astronomers just aren't greedy. It's like, oh, 1015 00:50:55.400 --> 00:50:58.000 we need a radio telescope and an infrared telescope and 1016 00:50:58.019 --> 00:51:01.489 an X-ray telescope and a visible light telescope. But you're 1017 00:51:01.570 --> 00:51:05.809 absolutely true. You see totally different things in these different 1018 00:51:05.829 --> 00:51:08.869 wavelengths of light. And so as high energy and dramatic 1019 00:51:09.010 --> 00:51:12.139 objects neutron stars are, you better believe they are. There 1020 00:51:12.159 --> 00:51:17.420 was one in, God, was it 2007? There was an 1021 00:51:17.460 --> 00:51:20.260 event that actually blew off a measurable amount of our atmosphere. 1022 00:51:20.909 --> 00:51:23.710 And the whole magnetic field of the Earth was ringing 1023 00:51:23.730 --> 00:51:24.610 like a bell for a while. 1024 00:51:24.929 --> 00:51:26.949 Now you're telling us this? 1025 00:51:27.469 --> 00:51:31.369 Look this up. This is all real. And we traced 1026 00:51:31.409 --> 00:51:33.090 it back to a neutron star that we think is 1027 00:51:33.130 --> 00:51:35.530 about 50,000 light years away. The neutron star had a 1028 00:51:35.539 --> 00:51:37.820 little bit of a bad day. The crust, we think, 1029 00:51:37.840 --> 00:51:41.199 shifted by about a centimeter. And that gave off so 1030 00:51:41.239 --> 00:51:44.679 much energy that 50,000 light years away, it blew off 1031 00:51:44.699 --> 00:51:45.639 a bunch of our atmosphere. 1032 00:51:45.860 --> 00:51:46.199 Oh, my. 1033 00:51:46.880 --> 00:51:48.559 These are intense things. 1034 00:51:49.000 --> 00:51:51.980 Michelle, I'm going to be honest. I could have lived 1035 00:51:52.019 --> 00:51:53.199 without that information. 1036 00:51:53.219 --> 00:51:55.739 Yeah, I know. It keeps you up at night, doesn't it? 1037 00:51:55.920 --> 00:51:58.969 It's great. I mean, who cares about asteroids, right? 1038 00:51:59.030 --> 00:52:02.969 I mean, killer asteroids. No, I mean, these blasts of 1039 00:52:03.030 --> 00:52:06.309 high-energy radiation from neutron stars, some people think that may 1040 00:52:06.369 --> 00:52:08.909 limit the age of civilizations in the galaxy. Eventually, we 1041 00:52:08.929 --> 00:52:09.610 all get hit by one. 1042 00:52:09.969 --> 00:52:13.840 Wow. Another great question. Thank you, Rachel. All right. This 1043 00:52:13.889 --> 00:52:17.460 is Brett. And Brett says, hi, Dr. Tyson, Dr. Thaler, 1044 00:52:17.500 --> 00:52:23.889 Lord Nice. Tuning in from Denver. Dublin, Ireland, my question is, 1045 00:52:24.949 --> 00:52:33.260 what unlikely possibility or possibilities do you hope are true? 1046 00:52:33.280 --> 00:52:33.349 Ooh. 1047 00:52:37.559 --> 00:52:44.260 That's father for good thought. It is. An unlikely possibility 1048 00:52:44.949 --> 00:52:47.610 that you're like, oh, man, that'd be so great if 1049 00:52:47.670 --> 00:52:48.449 that were true. 1050 00:52:50.119 --> 00:52:50.639 Yeah. 1051 00:52:50.920 --> 00:52:54.000 So, boy, that can go in so many different directions. 1052 00:52:54.039 --> 00:52:55.980 Because, I mean, I've got, I mean, one of the 1053 00:52:56.000 --> 00:52:58.139 things I- What a great question, Brett. Look at you. 1054 00:52:58.159 --> 00:53:00.650 I can lead off. I got one for you, Michelle. Okay. 1055 00:53:00.690 --> 00:53:01.190 I got one too. 1056 00:53:01.230 --> 00:53:01.570 You go ahead. 1057 00:53:01.630 --> 00:53:02.389 I think I got it. 1058 00:53:02.409 --> 00:53:02.570 Yeah. 1059 00:53:02.849 -->

00:53:06.750 I think it's unlikely that we'll find anything other than 1060 00:53:06.849 --> 00:53:10.309 microbial life on Mars if we find life at all. 1061 00:53:11.230 --> 00:53:14.190 But it would be really cool if we found sort 1062 00:53:14.210 --> 00:53:19.019 of macroscopic crawly things. living in the subsurface of Mars. 1063 00:53:19.239 --> 00:53:22.179 I think that's unlikely, but that would be really cool 1064 00:53:22.780 --> 00:53:24.980 if creatures crawled out from home. 1065 00:53:25.400 --> 00:53:28.179 Would you still be satisfied if those macroscopic crawly things 1066 00:53:28.300 --> 00:53:31.179 were fossilized in some way, but they're no longer there? 1067 00:53:31.239 --> 00:53:34.079 No, no, no. We're talking about unlikely things that we 1068 00:53:34.099 --> 00:53:37.619 want to happen. Let the thing crawl out and, and 1069 00:53:37.800 --> 00:53:41.500 ride one of the rovers like a, like a, like a, you. 1070 00:53:40.949 --> 00:53:42.909 Know, like, like what do you call those horses? 1071 00:53:43.469 --> 00:53:48.500 Those, Buck and Bronco. 1072 00:53:48.619 --> 00:53:51.780 Yeah, Buck and Bronco. I want to come out and 1073 00:53:51.820 --> 00:53:57.719 ride one of our rovers. Unlikely, but it'd be really 1074 00:53:57.739 --> 00:54:00.400 cool if it was true. So now your turn, Michelle. 1075 00:54:01.039 --> 00:54:02.679 So just riffing on that, do you think it might 1076 00:54:02.699 --> 00:54:04.789 be more likely to find macroscopic life on the moons 1077 00:54:04.829 --> 00:54:07.849 of Jupiter and Saturn in the oceans? You know, Europa 1078 00:54:07.889 --> 00:54:08.610 and Saladus? 1079 00:54:08.690 --> 00:54:11.969 We're talking about unlikely things that we want to happen. Oh, 1080 00:54:11.989 --> 00:54:13.050 you think that's a likely thing? 1081 00:54:13.110 --> 00:54:13.980 Okay, all right, got it. 1082 00:54:14.010 --> 00:54:14.630 Yeah, yeah. 1083 00:54:14.789 --> 00:54:15.670 Unlikely things. 1084 00:54:16.199 --> 00:54:18.079 Yeah, there could be like little brine shrimp and stuff. 1085 00:54:19.280 --> 00:54:20.340 Yeah. 1086 00:54:20.360 --> 00:54:23.699 One of my big excitements right now with the Webb 1087 00:54:23.719 --> 00:54:26.980 telescope is it's looking so far away that we're looking 1088 00:54:27.019 --> 00:54:30.579 back to a time roughly, like, let's say about 300 1089 00:54:30.579 --> 00:54:33.000 million years after the Big Bang. And we're actually seeing 1090 00:54:33.019 --> 00:54:39.860 the very first stars form. And they're absolutely different. I mean, 1091 00:54:39.900 --> 00:54:42.000 we haven't actually found, you know, one of these first 1092 00:54:42.019 --> 00:54:46.489 stars yet. I really want to find... first generation star. 1093 00:54:46.670 --> 00:54:48.409 We're going to be looking back to a time, just 1094 00:54:48.429 --> 00:54:49.889 like I said, a couple hundred million years after the 1095 00:54:49.909 --> 00:54:52.849 Big Bang when stars started to form. Webb can now 1096 00:54:53.369 --> 00:54:56.050 see that far back. We have that power. And we're 1097 00:54:56.070 --> 00:54:59.750 starting to see these pseudo stars that are formed around 1098 00:54:59.809 --> 00:55:02.070 black holes. They're about a million times the mass of 1099 00:55:02.090 --> 00:55:06.500 the sun, relatively small. I mean, these things may become 1100 00:55:06.539 --> 00:55:08.559 the seeds of the big black holes that are in 1101 00:55:08.579 --> 00:55:11.360 the centers of all galaxies. We're starting to see that 1102 00:55:11.460 --> 00:55:14.380 forming now. And my question, I mean, I was a 1103 00:55:14.440 --> 00:55:17.280 stellar astrophysicist. I was a stellar astrophysicist. 1104 00:55:17.320 --> 00:55:18.219 I studied stars. 1105 00:55:18.260 --> 00:55:18.900 That was my thing. 1106 00:55:19.440 --> 00:55:21.519 Outstanding in your field. 1107 00:55:21.760 --> 00:55:24.659 Not outstanding, but that's what I studied. And I would 1108 00:55:24.719 --> 00:55:26.679 love to see what one of the first generation stars 1109 00:55:26.719 --> 00:55:29.530 looks like. Because my guess is it's going to look 1110 00:55:29.590 --> 00:55:33.289 totally different. That the universe was more dense back then. 1111 00:55:33.329 --> 00:55:36.789 There was more dark matter prevalent. I mean, dark matter 1112 00:55:36.809 --> 00:55:38.969 has gravity. That's going to get sucked into the formation 1113 00:55:38.989 --> 00:55:42.110 of a star just from gravity too. What was that 1114 00:55:42.269 --> 00:55:44.690 first generation of stars like? My guess is they're going 1115 00:55:44.710 --> 00:55:48.579 to be huge, many, many times the mass of the sun, many, 1116 00:55:48.619 --> 00:55:51.360 many times bigger than the most massive stars we have today. 1117 00:55:52.219 --> 00:55:54.300 And I'm wondering if they're going to work really differently 1118 00:55:54.320 --> 00:55:55.719 because there's more dark matter. 1119 00:55:57.860 --> 00:55:58.179 In them. 1120 00:55:58.260 --> 00:55:58.519 Okay. 1121 00:55:58.590 --> 00:56:01.590 Interesting. I want to see that first generation of stars. 1122 00:56:02.110 --> 00:56:06.730 And just to be clear, James Webb was specifically designed 1123 00:56:06.769 --> 00:56:11.329 and tuned for that exercise. to see the beginnings of 1124 00:56:12.090 --> 00:56:14.949 the formation of matter in the early universe. So you're 1125 00:56:14.969 --> 00:56:16.670 betting on the right horse there, I think. 1126 00:56:17.349 --> 00:56:19.349 Yeah, we're doing it. I mean, these things, I mean, 1127 00:56:19.369 --> 00:56:21.590 never let astronomers name anything. These things are called little 1128 00:56:21.650 --> 00:56:26.619 red dots. Ha ha, yeah. They're massive pseudo stars around 1129 00:56:26.639 --> 00:56:28.780 a giant black hole at the beginning of the universe 1130 00:56:28.800 --> 00:56:30.099 that we're calling little red dots. 1131 00:56:30.440 --> 00:56:33.380 Because they look like little

red dots. Little red dots, yeah. 1132 00:56:33.400 --> 00:56:36.900 But they're so far away. Yeah, that's one of my favorites. 1133 00:56:37.400 --> 00:56:38.800 Chuck, time for like two more questions. 1134 00:56:39.429 --> 00:56:40.409 All right, here we go. 1135 00:56:40.429 --> 00:56:44.590 But only if Michelle is efficient in her answers. 1136 00:56:46.170 --> 00:56:46.969 I promise to be efficient. 1137 00:56:48.329 --> 00:56:49.530 You're unnoticed. 1138 00:56:49.650 --> 00:56:52.159 You don't have to promise anything, Michelle. It's going to 1139 00:56:52.179 --> 00:56:57.400 do what you want. This is Alyssa Feldhaus who says, hello, 1140 00:56:57.659 --> 00:57:05.039 Fowler the Great. This is Alyssa Feldhaus tuning in from Hendersonville, Tennessee. 1141 00:57:06.159 --> 00:57:09.280 As such a prominent female figure in the science world, 1142 00:57:09.840 --> 00:57:13.519 what message can you give all the little girls out 1143 00:57:13.599 --> 00:57:18.260 there that will one day stand on our shoulders? Me 1144 00:57:18.320 --> 00:57:22.090 and my girls love how the universe works. And thank 1145 00:57:22.130 --> 00:57:25.230 you for keeping science cool. 1146 00:57:28.050 --> 00:57:29.670 Oh, I always think of myself as so nerdy. I 1147 00:57:29.949 --> 00:57:33.349 never think about cool. Okay, so a message I always have. 1148 00:57:33.369 --> 00:57:35.150 The nerdy is the new cool. Nerdy is the new cool. 1149 00:57:35.170 --> 00:57:37.590 Nerdy is the new cool, absolutely, yeah. I guess a 1150 00:57:37.639 --> 00:57:41.059 message I already have is you're already the right type 1151 00:57:41.079 --> 00:57:43.460 of person to be a scientist. Math and physics did 1152 00:57:43.500 --> 00:57:45.880 not come quickly to me. I didn't get particularly good 1153 00:57:45.920 --> 00:57:47.980 grades in school in math and physics. It took me 1154 00:57:48.019 --> 00:57:52.199 some time. I just loved it so much. You know, 1155 00:57:52.219 --> 00:57:55.409 paying attention to your own curiosity and not being discouraged 1156 00:57:55.449 --> 00:57:58.230 when maybe you don't get something very, very quickly. You're 1157 00:57:58.289 --> 00:58:01.579 already enough. You're already there. For so long, I wondered, 1158 00:58:01.599 --> 00:58:03.139 you know, do I have what it takes to be 1159 00:58:03.159 --> 00:58:05.820 an astrophysicist? I love this, but maybe I just don't 1160 00:58:05.960 --> 00:58:10.349 have the magic thing, the right stuff. And science doesn't 1161 00:58:10.449 --> 00:58:12.889 work that way. If you want to study it, you 1162 00:58:12.909 --> 00:58:15.170 can study it. It's like learning a language. You know, 1163 00:58:15.190 --> 00:58:18.630 it takes a while to become fluent in a different language. 1164 00:58:19.210 --> 00:58:20.909 You don't really go up to a young person and say, 1165 00:58:20.969 --> 00:58:24.800 you could never learn Spanish, even if you tried. You know, no, no. 1166 00:58:25.079 --> 00:58:27.960 I

mean, science is a beautiful thing to study. It 1167 00:58:28.019 --> 00:58:31.389 takes time. And anyone can learn it if they're interested 1168 00:58:31.409 --> 00:58:34.989 in it and have that passion more than any innate 1169 00:58:35.369 --> 00:58:39.090 ability and talent to get all of this very quickly. So, 1170 00:58:39.250 --> 00:58:41.349 you know, I spent way too much time thinking maybe 1171 00:58:41.389 --> 00:58:45.269 I'm not the right personality. I'm not smart enough. And 1172 00:58:45.630 --> 00:58:50.699 it's a cultural, you know, bullshit that science requires a 1173 00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:56.619 certain type of brilliant, different person. So, you know, you're enough. And, 1174 00:58:56.639 --> 00:58:59.889 you know, you're going to be the best scientist from 1175 00:59:00.050 --> 00:59:03.010 your perspective, right? I mean, we're all people have different 1176 00:59:03.050 --> 00:59:05.489 science talents. Some people are better at the math. Some 1177 00:59:05.510 --> 00:59:07.969 people see the larger concepts. Some people are really good 1178 00:59:07.989 --> 00:59:10.639 at communicating it. These are all really important. steps and 1179 00:59:10.659 --> 00:59:13.820 you can find that part that you fit into. So 1180 00:59:14.039 --> 00:59:16.179 you don't have to be anything other than just the 1181 00:59:16.199 --> 00:59:16.760 way you are. 1182 00:59:17.239 --> 00:59:17.579 Wow. 1183 00:59:17.639 --> 00:59:19.500 I love it. I love it. 1184 00:59:19.719 --> 00:59:23.760 And if I can add, not having ever been female, 1185 00:59:24.159 --> 00:59:27.500 but being a black man in the world, there are 1186 00:59:27.579 --> 00:59:32.679 resonant challenges that we face entering a world that role 1187 00:59:32.719 --> 00:59:37.670 models are not there. So I would just add that 1188 00:59:37.829 --> 00:59:40.250 there are always people who will learn something faster than 1189 00:59:40.289 --> 00:59:43.889 you will. And the school system tends to reward that 1190 00:59:44.469 --> 00:59:47.090 and call those people smart and they might get a 1191 00:59:47.130 --> 00:59:51.510 higher grade. But in the end, that's not what matters. 1192 00:59:51.550 --> 00:59:55.150 What matters is your motivation to ultimately learn what you 1193 00:59:55.170 --> 00:59:57.349 need to learn. If it takes you longer to learn it, 1194 00:59:58.469 --> 01:00:00.900 longer than the time before you're tested on it. It 1195 01:00:01.119 --> 01:00:03.179 takes you a little longer. So what? It took you 1196 01:00:03.219 --> 01:00:05.719 a little longer. If you get there and your ambition 1197 01:00:05.739 --> 01:00:09.820 takes you and your interest, then ultimately that's what will 1198 01:00:09.860 --> 01:00:12.980 dominate who and what you are as a participant on 1199 01:00:13.019 --> 01:00:17.110 the research frontier, not how quickly you learn a problem 1200 01:00:17.150 --> 01:00:20.389 set on an exam in high school or in college. 1201 01:00:21.010 --> 01:00:25.050 So ambition is something that tests hardly ever test for. 1202 01:00:26.050 --> 01:00:27.789 And that's what you need. And that's what you need 1203 01:00:27.829 --> 01:00:29.190 confidence in. Yeah. 1204 01:00:29.610 --> 01:00:31.099 And just being able to stick to something. 1205 01:00:31.760 --> 01:00:32.039 Yeah. 1206 01:00:32.239 --> 01:00:34.380 And just having the grit. I mean, when I got 1207 01:00:34.420 --> 01:00:36.860 to college, I got placed in remedial math. I mean, 1208 01:00:36.920 --> 01:00:38.780 I came from a public school system that didn't have 1209 01:00:38.820 --> 01:00:43.800 a whole lot of math. And I knew I could 1210 01:00:43.980 --> 01:00:46.769 not get space out of my head. I was so 1211 01:00:46.829 --> 01:00:49.929 fascinated by it. And I am so glad I stuck 1212 01:00:50.010 --> 01:00:51.510 in when I was thinking, geez, I just don't have 1213 01:00:51.530 --> 01:00:52.110 the talent for this. 1214 01:00:52.590 --> 01:00:56.409 And that became the driver, your source of energy to 1215 01:00:56.449 --> 01:01:01.300 pursue it. And I like your language analogy because no 1216 01:01:01.360 --> 01:01:03.519 one will ever say, oh, you're not smart enough to 1217 01:01:03.539 --> 01:01:06.659 learn Spanish. No one will ever say that. They just say, 1218 01:01:06.920 --> 01:01:09.199 are you committed enough to learn Spanish? And you learn 1219 01:01:09.219 --> 01:01:10.900 a little bit today and a little bit next week 1220 01:01:10.920 --> 01:01:13.780 and next month. And eventually you wake up and you're 1221 01:01:13.800 --> 01:01:19.880 just talking fluent Spanish, you know, and everyone can learn it. 1222 01:01:20.059 --> 01:01:22.960 And I think that's also true with math. As a 1223 01:01:23.019 --> 01:01:24.780 language of the universe. Yes. 1224 01:01:25.340 --> 01:01:28.849 Well, let me add, Alyssa, that as a product of 1225 01:01:28.909 --> 01:01:32.710 Philadelphia public schools, there's always comedy. 1226 01:01:42.489 --> 01:01:47.170 All right. So, Chuck, we only actually had time for 1227 01:01:47.210 --> 01:01:49.170 that one last question, but that was a really good 1228 01:01:49.250 --> 01:01:53.320 one to end this episode on. So, Michelle, thank you 1229 01:01:53.360 --> 01:01:55.380 for being a guest on StarTalk. 1230 01:01:56.000 --> 01:01:57.679 Hey, I'm always here. 1231 01:01:58.030 --> 01:01:59.110 Where are you based right now? 1232 01:02:00.250 --> 01:02:01.670 Right now I'm in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 1233 01:02:02.510 --> 01:02:03.789 Whoa, is that where you're based? 1234 01:02:04.389 --> 01:02:05.050 Yes, yes. 1235 01:02:05.909 --> 01:02:08.889 Cool, cool. Okay. Well, we will make sure to find 1236 01:02:08.949 --> 01:02:12.559 you again because you're a delight to share in our 1237 01:02:12.659 --> 01:02:15.780 answers here and to get your perspectives on the state 1238 01:02:15.800 --> 01:02:19.059 of science in America and in the universe. 1239 01:02:20.539 --> 01:02:20.900 All right. 1240 01:02:21.750 --> 01:02:23.210 Chuck, always good to have you, man. 1241 01:02:23.769 --> 01:02:24.650 Always a pleasure. 1242 01:02:25.269 --> 01:02:28.400 These are fan favorites, these Cosmic Queries. And we delight 1243 01:02:28.500 --> 01:02:32.559 in the questions that we receive. And keep them coming. 1244 01:02:33.000 --> 01:02:36.019 But you have to be a member of the Patreon 1245 01:02:36.059 --> 01:02:36.980 community first. 1246 01:02:37.980 --> 01:02:42.630 Yes, but it's only $ 5. That's it. $ 5 a month. 1247 01:02:43.329 --> 01:02:46.809 And I got to tell you, that's less than what 1248 01:02:47.510 --> 01:02:49.650 the budget of NASA is. Yes. 1249 01:02:55.780 --> 01:03:00.590 All right. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. As always, 1250 01:03:00.610 --> 01:03:02.630 I bid you to keep looking up.