النص الكامل لحلقة Attachment Parenting

books and websites devoted 38 00:02:09.229 --> 00:02:12.389 to promoting this style of parenting, and the king of 39 00:02:12.430 --> 00:02:17.210 it all is William Sears. He popularised the term attachment parenting, 40 00:02:17.349 --> 00:02:22.490 and according to Sears, attachment parenting leads to a baby who's, quote, 41 00:02:23.310 --> 00:02:27.530 more trusting, feels more competent, grows better, feels right, acts right, 42 00:02:27.550 --> 00:02:31.560 is better organised, learns language more easily, establishes healthy independence, 43 00:02:31.569 --> 00:02:32.340 learns intimacy. 44 00:02:32.349 --> 00:02:33.030 Whew. 45 00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:38.509 And learns to give and receive love. William Sears declined 46 00:02:38.629 --> 00:02:41.610 our numerous requests for an interview, but here he is 47 00:02:41.870 --> 00:02:43.669 on American talk show The View. 48 00:02:43.689 --> 00:02:45.409 You know, I've been doing this for 40 years. 49 00:02:45.449 --> 00:02:45.669 Yeah. 50 00:02:46.189 --> 00:02:49.189 The healthiest babies in the world I have seen. 51 00:02:49.689 --> 00:02:51.469 Those who never become school bullies. 52 00:02:51.729 --> 00:02:55.960 Those who radiate like a sunflower turning toward the safe. 53 00:02:56.500 --> 00:02:58.259 They are the attachment parent of babies. 54 00:02:58.340 --> 00:03:00.270 I have to say this to you because there is a. 55 00:03:00.509 --> 00:03:04.300 William Sears' seminal book on attachment parenting, The Baby Book, 56 00:03:04.340 --> 00:03:08.599 which he co-wrote with his wife Martha, has sold over 1.5 57 00:03:08.599 --> 00:03:13.960 million copies. Even more convincing, though, Angelina Jolie, Kourtney Kardashian 58 00:03:14.120 --> 00:03:17.759 and Gisele Bundchen all practised attachment parenting, according to the 59 00:03:17.800 --> 00:03:23.219 gossip mags. Perhaps less convincingly... Blossom is a big fan. 60 00:03:30.969 --> 00:03:34.729 The thing is, though, attachment parenting has been criticised for 61 00:03:34.770 --> 00:03:40.300 being absurdly demanding on parents. So, is all the work 62 00:03:40.759 --> 00:03:46.319 worth it? Can attachment parenting really do what it promises? 63 00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:50.990 When it comes to raising your kids, everyone has an opinion. 64 00:03:51.830 --> 00:03:58.590 But then there's science. OK, so before we take on 65 00:03:58.719 --> 00:04:02.000 attachment parenting and all its rules, let's start by explaining 66 00:04:02.080 --> 00:04:05.060 where all this stuff came from, because it does have 67 00:04:05.139 --> 00:04:10.409 scientific roots. That is, attachment is a term borrowed from science. 68 00:04:11.189 --> 00:04:15.610 And attachment in the scientific community means something in particular. 69 00:04:15.650 --> 00:04:19.220 It's something you can test for. Alan Shroff is a 70 00:04:19.259 --> 00:04:22.759 professor of developmental psychology at the University of Minnesota, and 71 00:04:22.839 --> 00:04:26.600 he

has spent his career researching attachment and what makes 72 00:04:26.699 --> 00:04:30.779 a child securely attached. He's one of the foremost experts 73 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:31.540 on the topic. 74 00:04:32.060 --> 00:04:37.370 Attachment refers to a relationship between an infant and a 75 00:04:37.430 --> 00:04:42.410 particular adult. What we mean by secure attachment is that 76 00:04:42.550 --> 00:04:47.779 the child is confident that about the availability and responsiveness 77 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:52.529 of this particular adult. So they're secure in that relationship. 78 00:04:52.889 --> 00:04:54.629 They feel safe within it. 79 00:04:55.029 --> 00:04:57.069 And according to Alan, you can do a test to 80 00:04:57.110 --> 00:05:01.089 see whether this attachment exists. The test has a kind 81 00:05:01.129 --> 00:05:06.250 of funny name. It's called the strange situation procedure. Alan 82 00:05:06.290 --> 00:05:08.689 has done these tests for years and the sound you're 83 00:05:08.709 --> 00:05:11.439 about to hear is from one of his studies. So 84 00:05:11.980 --> 00:05:15.779 in broad strokes, here's how the test works. A parent 85 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:21.259 and a baby are in a room together. After a 86 00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:24.899 few minutes, a stranger enters the room and the parent leaves. 87 00:05:28.069 --> 00:05:39.629 Then the stranger leaves and the parent re-enters. The researchers 88 00:05:39.740 --> 00:05:43.000 watch the reunion of parent and child, focusing on the 89 00:05:43.079 --> 00:05:46.180 kids' reactions. A child who is happy when the parent 90 00:05:46.220 --> 00:05:50.740 returns is considered securely attached. A child who continues crying 91 00:05:50.779 --> 00:05:54.199 and is upset when the parent returns or is kind 92 00:05:54.220 --> 00:05:59.769 of unresponsive is considered insecurely attached. There's more to it, 93 00:05:59.990 --> 00:06:03.990 but that's the main idea. Now, it's not a perfect test. 94 00:06:04.069 --> 00:06:07.189 It's very hard to measure how much confidence a toddler 95 00:06:07.230 --> 00:06:10.449 has in her parent. But for those who study attachment, 96 00:06:11.189 --> 00:06:14.810 this test is kind of the best they've got. And Alan, 97 00:06:15.290 --> 00:06:16.029 he believes in it. 98 00:06:16.350 --> 00:06:18.829 The reason it's so good is that it kind of 99 00:06:19.089 --> 00:06:24.019 summarises everything that went on. It's like the integrative summary 100 00:06:24.100 --> 00:06:27.220 of all the experiences that came the infant's way. 101 00:06:27.759 --> 00:06:30.620 For over three decades, Alan and his team have followed 102 00:06:30.730 --> 00:06:34.189 more than 200 people from birth to adulthood, looking for 103 00:06:34.230 --> 00:06:38.860 differences in securely attached and insecurely attached kids. He and 104 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:41.319 the team interviewed the kids as they got older. They 105 00:06:41.399 --> 00:06:44.180 even set up schools and summer camps to observe the 106 00:06:44.199 --> 00:06:47.920 kids interacting with their peers. And Alan says from the 107 00:06:48.100 --> 00:06:50.370 early days of the study, he could see the benefits 108 00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:53.790 of being a securely attached kid. So, for example, when 109 00:06:53.889 --> 00:06:55.930 all the children were three years old, he gave them 110 00:06:56.050 --> 00:06:58.930 a little problem-solving task. It was pulling a lever to 111 00:06:58.970 --> 00:07:02.129 get a toy. Now, this is the same kid that 112 00:07:02.170 --> 00:07:05.160 you just heard in the strange situation procedure, but now 113 00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:06.420 she's three years old. 114 00:07:13.449 --> 00:07:18.069 Those children who had histories of secure attachment were more self-confident, 115 00:07:19.009 --> 00:07:23.660 worked harder on the problems, were more persistent, were more agentic, 116 00:07:23.899 --> 00:07:27.660 meaning that they portrayed an inner belief that if they 117 00:07:27.720 --> 00:07:29.680 worked hard, they could solve the problems. 118 00:07:31.139 --> 00:07:34.439 Alan's study also looked at what happened if kids didn't 119 00:07:34.519 --> 00:07:38.560 securely attach, and he found that insecurely attached kids were 120 00:07:38.600 --> 00:07:42.449 more likely to have lower self-esteem, harbour feelings of rejection, 121 00:07:43.009 --> 00:07:48.170 and have poorer relationships later in life. So, the professor 122 00:07:48.209 --> 00:07:51.870 tells us that having a securely attached baby is a 123 00:07:51.889 --> 00:07:56.230 good thing. But, and this is the question that we'll 124 00:07:56.269 --> 00:08:02.500 be investigating, does attachment matter? the thing that William Sears popularised, 125 00:08:02.839 --> 00:08:06.949 actually lead to what Alan Shroff is testing for, secure attachment? 126 00:08:07.370 --> 00:08:10.709 Do the rules outlined in William Sears' baby book and 127 00:08:10.769 --> 00:08:15.209 in hundreds of other articles and websites and books actually 128 00:08:15.350 --> 00:08:20.730 ensure secure attachment? We're going to focus on four of 129 00:08:20.769 --> 00:08:24.420 these rules, ones that you see again and again and again. 130 00:08:25.100 --> 00:08:27.899 Rule number one, breastfeed. A lot. 131 00:08:27.920 --> 00:08:28.120 A lot. 132 00:08:28.850 --> 00:08:33.720 Rule number two, don't let your baby cry, especially at bedtime. Three. 133 00:08:34.100 --> 00:08:37.419 Rule number three, share your bed with your baby. 134 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:37.740 Four. 135 00:08:38.179 --> 00:08:45.960 And rule number four, wear your baby. Let's start with 136 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:51.509 rule number one, breastfeed. Attachment parenter, Judy, believed in this 137 00:08:51.649 --> 00:08:54.690 so much that she went to great lengths to get 138 00:08:54.730 --> 00:08:55.330 the job done. 139 00:08:55.690 --> 00:09:00.049 I did every... possible thing to breastfeed and to make 140

00:09:00.090 --> 00:09:02.929 enough milk and to make it seem like I was 141 00:09:02.990 --> 00:09:05.730 breastfeeding with a tube on my, you know, on my breast. 142 00:09:06.009 --> 00:09:09.389 A tube. Judy wasn't making enough milk to rely on. 143 00:09:09.460 --> 00:09:11.639 She produced some, but not enough for the baby to 144 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:14.720 live on. And so she needed to use formula. But 145 00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:16.980 she didn't want her baby to lose out on the 146 00:09:17.039 --> 00:09:21.179 entire breastfeeding experience. So she didn't just use a regular 147 00:09:21.240 --> 00:09:24.620 baby bottle. Instead, she attached a tube to the bottle 148 00:09:25.059 --> 00:09:28.100 and held it right near her nipple. That way, she figured, 149 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:30.019 the baby would think she was nursing. 150 00:09:30.179 --> 00:09:31.980 And you figure out a way to just hold it 151 00:09:32.019 --> 00:09:35.320 there with the bottle, with the baby, and I was 152 00:09:35.379 --> 00:09:36.340 so determined. 153 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:40.080 All this determination to give her kids the somewhat authentic 154 00:09:40.139 --> 00:09:45.409 experience of breastfeeding, was it worth it? When we consider 155 00:09:45.429 --> 00:09:47.809 whether breastfeeding is really better for your kid, there are 156 00:09:47.850 --> 00:09:49.950 two parts to this. There's the right boob and the 157 00:09:49.990 --> 00:09:55.679 left boob. Joking. Although it's true, right? Anyway, there's the 158 00:09:55.740 --> 00:09:59.059 milk and there's the act of breastfeeding. Let's start with 159 00:09:59.080 --> 00:10:02.659 the milk. Breast milk is sure good for the baby's health. 160 00:10:03.320 --> 00:10:06.480 According to the World Health Organization, breast milk protects against 161 00:10:06.539 --> 00:10:09.759 infectious and chronic diseases. And in the long term, being 162 00:10:09.799 --> 00:10:12.899 breastfed has been linked to having lower blood pressure and 163 00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:17.399 a reduced risk of obesity. But what about the act 164 00:10:17.620 --> 00:10:22.509 of breastfeeding? Is that critical to attachment? Well, a Dutch 165 00:10:22.549 --> 00:10:25.649 team followed over 600 mothers and their babies and looked 166 00:10:25.669 --> 00:10:30.769 at how breastfeeding affected attachment. In 2012, they published their results, 167 00:10:30.980 --> 00:10:34.559 finding that breastfeeding had no impact on whether the kids 168 00:10:34.659 --> 00:10:38.460 were defined as securely attached or not. That is based 169 00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:43.279 on the strange situation procedure. Want more evidence? A 2008 170 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:46.179 paper which scrutinised a bunch of studies on this came 171 00:10:46.250 --> 00:10:49.309 to the same conclusion. Quote, End quote. 172 00:10:49.330 --> 00:10:49.730 Conclusion. 173 00:10:49.750 --> 00:10:52.210 Breastfeeding is good for a bunch of reasons. Secure attachment 174 00:10:52.309 --> 00:10:54.509 isn't one of them. So, on to rule number two. 175 00:10:54.529 --> 00:11:12.009 Whenever your baby cries, leap into action. Attachment parents can 176 00:11:12.049 --> 00:11:15.590 take a zero-tolerance approach to crying. And it's not that 177 00:11:15.629 --> 00:11:18.830 babies aren't allowed to cry. It's just that parents should 178 00:11:18.889 --> 00:11:22.509 hop to as soon as the tears start, if not before. 179 00:11:23.750 --> 00:11:28.120 They give me a little squeak or a little tiny cry. 180 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:30.279 They don't even have to cry. They just know I'm 181 00:11:30.299 --> 00:11:33.139 going to come. And I like that. If I take 182 00:11:33.159 --> 00:11:36.259 a shower, I can hear the baby crying from the 183 00:11:36.279 --> 00:11:38.990 other room, even if the shower's on. Even if someone 184 00:11:39.070 --> 00:11:40.970 else is out there, if they don't pick them up, 185 00:11:41.090 --> 00:11:43.720 I can hear. The baby needs something and I have 186 00:11:43.779 --> 00:11:46.179 to help figure out what it is. 187 00:11:46.700 --> 00:11:49.500 And the subject of how much crying is OK often 188 00:11:49.559 --> 00:11:52.860 comes up when you're talking about sleep training. So sleep 189 00:11:52.899 --> 00:11:55.509 training is teaching a baby to sleep through the night. 190 00:11:55.889 --> 00:11:58.029 And a key part of this involves letting your baby 191 00:11:58.129 --> 00:12:02.250 cry a bit without responding too much. The idea is 192 00:12:02.289 --> 00:12:04.669 that she'll learn how to put herself back to sleep. 193 00:12:05.820 --> 00:12:10.080 But attachment parenting proponents warn that letting babies cry could 194 00:12:10.120 --> 00:12:17.129 potentially have severe long-term detrimental psychological effects. On William Sears' website, 195 00:12:17.490 --> 00:12:21.750 he says, quote, Baby loses trust in the signal value 196 00:12:21.830 --> 00:12:25.389 of his cry and perhaps baby also loses trust in 197 00:12:25.429 --> 00:12:29.990 the responsiveness of his caregivers. Not only does something vital 198 00:12:30.049 --> 00:12:35.210 go out of baby, an important ingredient in the parent-child relationship, 199 00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:41.700 goes out of parents' sensitivity, end quote. Sears sums up 200 00:12:41.759 --> 00:12:46.000 the whole idea with the line, quote, we train pets, 201 00:12:46.750 --> 00:12:52.570 we parent children, end quote. But according to Jane Fisher, 202 00:12:52.590 --> 00:12:56.789 a professor of clinical psychology at Monash University in Melbourne, 203 00:12:57.590 --> 00:12:59.429 this is just wrong. 204 00:13:00.049 --> 00:13:03.159 I think it's a false assertion to suggest that this 205 00:13:03.259 --> 00:13:07.340 is the only way in which sensitive responsive care can 206 00:13:07.399 --> 00:13:08.419 be provided. 207 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:12.940 Jane specialises in parenting and early childhood development, and along 208 00:13:12.960

--> 00:13:16.769 with conducting peer-reviewed research, she works in a special facility 209 00:13:16.809 --> 00:13:20.509 in Australia for parents and babies. It's called a Residential 210 00:13:20.669 --> 00:13:23.590 Early Parenting Service, and it's a place where new parents 211 00:13:23.629 --> 00:13:25.789 can go to get counselling and support. 212 00:13:26.340 --> 00:13:29.120 We admit nearly 1,000 women a year, and I've been 213 00:13:29.179 --> 00:13:33.320 actively involved in clinical work there for 20 years. So 214 00:13:33.340 --> 00:13:36.820 I've been involved in the care of 12,000 to 15,000 215 00:13:36.820 --> 00:13:42.019 mothers and babies. Women arrive at our service usually absolutely 216 00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:47.000 exhausted with low mood and high anxiety and very unsettled babies. 217 00:13:47.500 --> 00:13:51.039 Often what we learn as we have conversations with them 218 00:13:51.539 --> 00:13:54.460 is that any time the baby makes a sound, They 219 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:56.759 pick the baby up, they hold the baby near them, 220 00:13:57.240 --> 00:13:59.879 they take the baby with them wherever they go, day 221 00:13:59.960 --> 00:14:03.559 or night. What this leads to is a very unpredictable 222 00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:04.720 pattern of care. 223 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:08.179 Jane's an advocate for sleep training, and she says the 224 00:14:08.259 --> 00:14:13.190 psychological damage that attachment parents fear isn't real. She points 225 00:14:13.230 --> 00:14:16.070 to several studies, including one from this year, which looked 226 00:14:16.110 --> 00:14:19.389 at toddlers 12 months after they'd been sleep trained. The 227 00:14:19.429 --> 00:14:23.779 study found no differences in emotional or behavioural wellbeing and 228 00:14:23.860 --> 00:14:26.779 no differences in secure attachment between the babies who'd been 229 00:14:26.820 --> 00:14:30.440 sleep-trained and those who hadn't. And Jane Fisher says that 230 00:14:30.679 --> 00:14:34.039 the benefits of sleep training go beyond the kids. Sleep 231 00:14:34.059 --> 00:14:36.299 training is good for mums and dads too. 232 00:14:36.610 --> 00:14:39.049 So after a couple of days of care like this, 233 00:14:39.590 --> 00:14:44.309 the amount of crying and fussing diminishes dramatically, feeding improves, 234 00:14:44.889 --> 00:14:48.610 overall amount of sleep increases. And we can see that 235 00:14:48.769 --> 00:14:53.480 as that happens, a mother's confidence grows more, her anxiety 236 00:14:53.539 --> 00:14:57.620 diminishes and her spirits lift. And I've seen this now 237 00:14:57.960 --> 00:15:01.620 more than 10,000 times and it is a very powerful 238 00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:02.580 thing to observe. 239 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:05.740 Jane says that even though she knows the research about 240 00:15:05.779 --> 00:15:08.419 sleep training and she knows that it isn't bad for babies, 241 00:15:08.700 --> 00:15:11.230 she gets why it's really hard for mums like Judy 242 00:15:11.250 --> 00:15:13.809 to sleep train, to let their babies cry a bit 243 00:15:13.889 --> 00:15:17.190 in service of them sleeping through the night. Jane's a 244 00:15:17.210 --> 00:15:20.529 mum too. Now, you've got four kids. Do you remember 245 00:15:20.549 --> 00:15:22.669 trying to put your first one to sleep or your 246 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:23.879 second or your third? 247 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:29.600 I was extremely dumb. So with my first baby, I 248 00:15:29.679 --> 00:15:33.720 continued to suckle her overnight for far too long. And finally, 249 00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:36.679 when she was about 18 months old, a book came 250 00:15:36.759 --> 00:15:40.769 out called Toddler Taming. And we read the book and 251 00:15:40.990 --> 00:15:44.070 I thought, I can't possibly do this. But my husband 252 00:15:44.129 --> 00:15:46.190 was more robust and he said, we're going to do it. 253 00:15:46.570 --> 00:15:49.309 So for two nights, I didn't get up. He soothed 254 00:15:49.350 --> 00:15:53.129 and settled her in bed and it stopped. The overnight 255 00:15:53.200 --> 00:15:54.120 waking stopped. 256 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:56.940 And why did you, when you read the book, why 257 00:15:56.980 --> 00:15:58.820 did you think there's no way I can do this? 258 00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:03.940 Oh, I think because it was so difficult to feel 259 00:16:03.980 --> 00:16:07.360 that I was withholding care she needed. But in fact, 260 00:16:07.850 --> 00:16:11.980 what I Now it realises it wasn't withholding care. She 261 00:16:12.019 --> 00:16:14.799 had lots of loving care. It was trying to actually 262 00:16:14.840 --> 00:16:19.570 help her into a developmentally appropriate state where she could 263 00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:21.470 sleep in her own bed all night. 264 00:16:22.309 --> 00:16:26.830 Conclusion. According to the best science available, sleep training or 265 00:16:26.870 --> 00:16:29.570 letting your baby cry a bit will not damage them 266 00:16:30.090 --> 00:16:33.889 or your relationship with them. But it does mean, parents, 267 00:16:34.570 --> 00:16:41.789 you might just get some sleep. Coming up after the break, 268 00:16:42.820 --> 00:16:46.379 should parents sleep in the same bed as their baby? Plus, 269 00:16:46.519 --> 00:16:49.779 the man who sold 1.5 million books on attachment parenting 270 00:16:50.379 --> 00:17:02.879 sends us his evidence. Hey, it's Wendy from Science Versus, 271 00:17:02.980 --> 00:17:05.000 and I want to tell you about a podcast that 272 00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:08.440 I love, Science Friday. They cover all sorts of amazing 273 00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:11.849 things in the weird and wonderful world of science, from 274 00:17:11.869 --> 00:17:15.569 how concussions affect our brain to the inner secrets of 275 00:17:15.609 --> 00:17:18.470 a snake with a spider on its tale. It's a 276 00:17:18.490 --> 00:17:20.849 lot of news that you can use and some that 277 00:17:20.890 --> 00:17:23.339 you

can't, but you're going to love anyway. It's hosted 278 00:17:23.380 --> 00:17:27.059 by Ira Flato and Flora Lichtman, who is an old 279 00:17:27.180 --> 00:17:29.839 friend of the show and loves a pun as much 280 00:17:29.900 --> 00:17:32.980 as we do. Science Friday is on every day, wherever 281 00:17:33.059 --> 00:17:39.490 you get your podcasts. Welcome back to Science vs. Attachment Parenting. 282 00:17:39.910 --> 00:17:45.369 So time for attachment parenting rule number three, sleep with 283 00:17:45.410 --> 00:17:50.170 your baby. Judy's daughter, Isabel, slept with her parents until 284 00:17:50.230 --> 00:17:54.289 she was around 15 months old. Judy wanted her son, Robert, 285 00:17:54.349 --> 00:17:56.609 to sleep in the bed with her and her husband 286 00:17:56.650 --> 00:18:00.130 as well, but Robert was too restless, so she keeps 287 00:18:00.170 --> 00:18:01.150 him as close as possible. 288 00:18:01.450 --> 00:18:03.950 But it kind of doesn't matter. We're kind of swirling 289 00:18:04.009 --> 00:18:06.849 around all night, like everybody's facing different directions. 290 00:18:06.869 --> 00:18:14.569 I love you forever. Science Versus producer Heather Rogers talked 291 00:18:14.609 --> 00:18:17.230 with Judy and her family at their home in Manhattan. 292 00:18:18.450 --> 00:18:20.299 When you sleep, Isabel, where do you sleep? 293 00:18:21.059 --> 00:18:21.480 In my bed. 294 00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:25.920 My baby sleeps inside too. 295 00:18:26.460 --> 00:18:29.839 So when everyone's asleep, everyone's asleep in the same room? 296 00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:30.759 Yes. 297 00:18:31.619 --> 00:18:33.579 Is it nice to wake up and your parents are there? 298 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:35.839 Mommy! 299 00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:41.299 That's a no comment answer. She's only known that her 300 00:18:41.319 --> 00:18:44.200 whole life, so she doesn't know any other way. 301 00:18:44.900 --> 00:18:47.859 It's a sweet scene, and according to William Sears, it's 302 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:50.759 more than that. In the baby book, he says that 303 00:18:50.819 --> 00:18:54.349 if you don't sleep with your baby, you risk breaking, quote, 304 00:18:55.049 --> 00:18:59.509 fragile connections with your baby, end quote. We asked William 305 00:18:59.549 --> 00:19:02.549 Sears for the research that supports that claim and others 306 00:19:02.609 --> 00:19:06.170 that he and his wife make about attachment parenting. We 307 00:19:06.210 --> 00:19:09.660 heard back from his communications officer, his son, Matt Sears. 308 00:19:10.279 --> 00:19:13.259 He sent us an email that read, quote, a lot 309 00:19:13.299 --> 00:19:16.240 of Dr Bill's writings are based primarily on his own 310 00:19:16.299 --> 00:19:21.009 experience raising eight children and 40 plus years as a paediatrician, 311 00:19:21.730 --> 00:19:25.769 end quote. Matt did include links for two academic papers 312 00:19:25.849 --> 00:19:29.420 on sleeping in the same bed as babies. But neither paper, 313 00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:34.019 one from 2010 and the other from 2012, endorsed this practice. 314 00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:38.759 And neither paper said anything at all about attachment. And 315 00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:41.349 I guess that makes sense since their author is an 316 00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:46.509 anthropologist and not a medical scientist or a developmental psychologist. 317 00:19:48.150 --> 00:19:52.420 But Professor Jane Fisher... is a psychologist, and she gets 318 00:19:52.500 --> 00:19:56.759 frustrated by people making grand claims about the supposed benefits 319 00:19:56.839 --> 00:20:00.049 of sleeping in the same bed as your baby. Well, 320 00:20:00.670 --> 00:20:03.690 as frustrated as an Australian version of Mrs Potts can sound. 321 00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:05.660 into the cupboard with you all. 322 00:20:05.940 --> 00:20:08.950 I don't think it's accurate to say that if a 323 00:20:09.009 --> 00:20:12.349 mother and her baby are not sharing a sleep space, 324 00:20:13.049 --> 00:20:17.289 that this responsive care in which a baby's needs are 325 00:20:17.349 --> 00:20:21.700 responded to. I don't think that sharing a space is 326 00:20:21.859 --> 00:20:23.160 essential for that. 327 00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:27.460 But for Jane Fisher, it actually goes beyond frustration and 328 00:20:27.559 --> 00:20:30.609 into professional duty. She says that when it comes to 329 00:20:30.670 --> 00:20:32.490 sleeping in the same bed as your baby. 330 00:20:32.890 --> 00:20:36.529 It's been shown quite clearly that constitutes a risk to 331 00:20:36.569 --> 00:20:42.950 that child's survival. So it is no longer permissible in 332 00:20:43.450 --> 00:20:49.140 Australia for us to encourage, permit, condone, give any professional 333 00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:52.640 endorsement to a baby sharing a bed space with an adult. 334 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:56.039 The risk that she's talking about is babies dying from 335 00:20:56.119 --> 00:21:01.180 sudden unexpected infant deaths. And in the US... 3,500 babies 336 00:21:01.240 --> 00:21:04.700 died this way in 2014. Now, we don't know why 337 00:21:04.759 --> 00:21:07.349 these babies die, but we do know that the risk 338 00:21:07.430 --> 00:21:10.829 of sudden infant death jumps when babies share a bed 339 00:21:10.970 --> 00:21:15.589 with their parents. Attachment parenting websites and books often downplay 340 00:21:15.609 --> 00:21:18.359 this danger. They argue that infants are only at risk 341 00:21:18.410 --> 00:21:22.150 when mothers smoke, drink or take up drugs. Now, while 342 00:21:22.190 --> 00:21:26.250 these factors actually can increase the risk of death, a 343 00:21:26.250 --> 00:21:29.130 2012 paper found a baby is still at risk even 344 00:21:29.190 --> 00:21:31.950 if these things aren't happening. It found that for babies 345 00:21:32.099 --> 00:21:35.339 under three months, there is a five-fold increase in the 346 00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:38.299 risk of these kinds of deaths

when infants share a 347 00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:42.339 bed with, quote, non-smoking parents and the mother who has 348 00:21:42.460 --> 00:21:45.589 not taken alcohol or drugs, end quote. 349 00:21:46.589 --> 00:21:47.069 Conclusions. 350 00:21:47.849 --> 00:21:50.390 There is no evidence that sleeping in the same bed 351 00:21:50.450 --> 00:21:53.289 as your baby will help that baby attach, and there 352 00:21:53.349 --> 00:21:56.970 is a small but very real risk of sudden unexpected 353 00:21:57.130 --> 00:22:02.619 infant death. OK, so far, the data to back up 354 00:22:02.660 --> 00:22:07.259 these rules of attachment parenting are looking pretty thin. So 355 00:22:07.319 --> 00:22:11.009 what about rule number four? Carry your baby on your body. 356 00:22:11.869 --> 00:22:15.190 In the baby book, Sears writes, quote, Also in the 357 00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:17.380 baby book, Sears referred to research they conducted on baby-wearing. 358 00:22:40.700 --> 00:22:44.000 They write that while attending an international parenting conference, they 359 00:22:44.059 --> 00:22:48.220 noticed mothers from other cultures holding their babies in sling-like carriers. 360 00:22:48.849 --> 00:22:53.849 They were particularly struck by two such women from Zambia. Quote, 361 00:22:55.029 --> 00:22:58.829 Women in their culture don't have the benefits of books 362 00:22:58.930 --> 00:23:03.710 and studies about mothering hormones. What they have is centuries 363 00:23:03.769 --> 00:23:07.400 of tradition that have simply taught them that something good 364 00:23:07.460 --> 00:23:11.150 happens to women and their babies when when babies are worn, 365 00:23:11.910 --> 00:23:16.710 end quote. But according to the experts we did talk to, 366 00:23:17.349 --> 00:23:21.230 there is no evidence that carrying a baby will help 367 00:23:21.329 --> 00:23:25.279 your kid to securely attach. The only research that we 368 00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:28.759 could find on this topic were three studies that considered 369 00:23:28.779 --> 00:23:32.160 the link between parents holding infants in a sling for 370 00:23:32.180 --> 00:23:35.059 at least three hours a day to reduce their baby's 371 00:23:35.140 --> 00:23:40.200 extended bouts of crying, nothing on attachment specifically. And if 372 00:23:40.220 --> 00:23:43.029 you're curious, though, one of the studies found that baby 373 00:23:43.049 --> 00:23:46.329 wearing reduced the duration, although not frequency of the crying, 374 00:23:46.769 --> 00:23:52.069 but the other two studies showed no impact. Conclusion. You 375 00:23:52.089 --> 00:23:54.589 can wear your baby in a sling, but it won't 376 00:23:54.630 --> 00:23:59.970 mean your baby attaches. OK, so that's four rules of 377 00:24:00.009 --> 00:24:04.150 attachment parenting and no good academic research to back them up. 378 00:24:05.150 --> 00:24:08.230 And then there's this. Remember Alan Shroff and the strange 379 00:24:08.269 --> 00:24:09.210 situation procedure? 380 00:24:10.970 --> 00:24:11.289 Mercy. 381 00:24:12.150 --> 00:24:14.190 Mercy. 382 00:24:15.750 --> 00:24:19.549 So Alan has spent decades testing the effects of secure attachment. 383 00:24:20.069 --> 00:24:22.670 You can think of Alan as the prophet of attachment, 384 00:24:22.730 --> 00:24:26.430 and William Sears, with his 1.5 million books sold, as 385 00:24:26.490 --> 00:24:30.940 the televangelist. So what does Professor Alan Shroff think of 386 00:24:30.980 --> 00:24:32.700 the rules of attachment parenting? 387 00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:39.059 Those prescriptions are not based in any solid research findings. 388 00:24:39.799 --> 00:24:44.920 It oversimplifies what's involved, and it makes it sound like 389 00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:47.160 it is simply a list of things, and if you 390 00:24:47.220 --> 00:24:49.940 check those off, then you don't have to worry about 391 00:24:50.019 --> 00:24:50.680 anything else. 392 00:24:51.089 --> 00:24:55.009 Shroff says attachment parenting's guidelines can make perfectly good parents 393 00:24:55.069 --> 00:24:58.369 feel guilty and inadequate. And he says the answer to 394 00:24:58.410 --> 00:25:01.230 the question, how do I get my child to securely attach, 395 00:25:02.049 --> 00:25:03.390 is a lot less prescriptive. 396 00:25:04.150 --> 00:25:07.680 It doesn't have to be anything like perfect. When we 397 00:25:07.740 --> 00:25:10.640 looked at the parenting, we did a lot of home observation, 398 00:25:10.940 --> 00:25:14.779 and we were amazed at how robust infants were, how 399 00:25:14.920 --> 00:25:18.730 broad the boundaries are of what adequate care is. 400 00:25:19.210 --> 00:25:22.470 In fact, according to Allen, the majority of kids, 70 401 00:25:22.470 --> 00:25:28.410 to 80 percent, will securely attach. No sling-wearing required. Conclusion. 402 00:25:28.940 --> 00:25:32.599 There's no good scientific evidence that attachment parenting leads to 403 00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:38.329 kids who are attached. Now that's settled, it's time to ask, 404 00:25:39.029 --> 00:25:45.140 how much does secure attachment actually determine a kid's future success? Well, 405 00:25:45.299 --> 00:25:48.920 Alan's decades-long study found that whether a kid is securely 406 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:51.900 attached predicted how well they did at school, how good 407 00:25:51.940 --> 00:25:54.960 they were at making friends and having romantic relationships, and 408 00:25:55.119 --> 00:25:58.609 even their personal sense of responsibility. But how well it 409 00:25:58.670 --> 00:26:02.750 predicted this might surprise you. It turns out that by 410 00:26:02.930 --> 00:26:07.960 age 19... Secure attachment accounts for 5% of the difference 411 00:26:08.359 --> 00:26:11.930 between the children with those good qualities and those without. 412 00:26:13.329 --> 00:26:16.009 We asked Alan about this and he acknowledged that securely 413 00:26:16.069 --> 00:26:20.230 attaching as a baby was a weak predictor for life

success. 414 00:26:20.609 --> 00:26:23.410 He said that all kinds of other influences in later 415 00:26:23.470 --> 00:26:26.569 childhood and early adulthood also have power in shaping who 416 00:26:26.609 --> 00:26:30.500 we become. Things like our relationships with our siblings, the 417 00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:32.779 quality of the schools we go to, if we have 418 00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:36.099 bad experiences in life that have nothing to do with 419 00:26:36.160 --> 00:26:40.309 our parents. But Alan, as well as other scientists that 420 00:26:40.369 --> 00:26:42.650 we talked to for this episode, said the fact that 421 00:26:42.710 --> 00:26:46.089 secure attachment as a baby continues to positively influence you 422 00:26:46.130 --> 00:26:50.250 at all into your adulthood is still significant. So while 423 00:26:50.250 --> 00:26:53.970 5% might not sound like a lot, it's still something. 424 00:26:55.130 --> 00:26:57.670 But you know what counts for more than 5% of 425 00:26:57.730 --> 00:27:02.130 our personality when we're all grown up? Our genetics. 426 00:27:02.779 --> 00:27:06.339 So parenting within the normal range when it's not neglectful 427 00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:11.009 and it's not abusive usually only has limited influence. There 428 00:27:11.049 --> 00:27:13.730 is still some influence of the parents, but, I mean, 429 00:27:13.779 --> 00:27:18.799 we only talk about small change in the child's behaviour. 430 00:27:19.640 --> 00:27:23.700 Reot Avinun from Hebrew University of Jerusalem researches how genes 431 00:27:23.779 --> 00:27:27.599 affect the relationship between children and their parents. She told 432 00:27:27.660 --> 00:27:30.039 us that her work and the work of many others 433 00:27:30.220 --> 00:27:35.509 shows how important genetics are. So, for example, a US 434 00:27:35.589 --> 00:27:39.470 research team analysed dozens of studies looking at the association 435 00:27:39.609 --> 00:27:43.849 between parenting and chronic childhood anxiety, and they found that 436 00:27:43.930 --> 00:27:49.069 parenting accounted for only 4% of the difference between chronically 437 00:27:49.170 --> 00:27:54.440 anxious and non-anxious children. But other studies using identical twins 438 00:27:54.740 --> 00:28:00.579 found that genetics explains between 30% to 80% of the difference. 439 00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:07.640 Similar results have been found with depression. So while creating 440 00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:13.000 secure attachment is important, genetics matters too. And as Reot 441 00:28:13.019 --> 00:28:15.799 and I were talking, I was reminded of a poem, 442 00:28:16.680 --> 00:28:20.380 as I often am. It's called This Be The Verse 443 00:28:20.579 --> 00:28:23.750 by Philip Larkin, and it starts with, they f * 444 00:28:23.609 --> 00:28:25.789 * * you up, your mum and dad. They may 445 00:28:25.829 --> 00:28:28.009 not mean to, but they do. They fill you with 446 00:28:28.049 --> 00:28:31.170 the faults they had and some extra

just for you. 447 00:28:31.190 --> 00:28:33.190 Why do you think we, what do you think? 448 00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:38.759 Yeah, I actually do know this one. I actually think 449 00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:41.779 that this is exactly why it's important to show how 450 00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:46.009 limited parental influence is, because I think that children blame 451 00:28:47.420 --> 00:28:51.509 their parents a lot. And they think that if they're unsuccessful, 452 00:28:51.529 --> 00:28:57.190 that if they're anxious or whatever, then they always blame 453 00:28:57.230 --> 00:28:59.930 the parents. I mean, it's nice to blame our parents, 454 00:29:00.029 --> 00:29:02.730 but it's not really based on research. 455 00:29:03.789 --> 00:29:09.250 Conclusion. Genetics matter. It plays an important role in our personality, 456 00:29:09.369 --> 00:29:13.759 our intelligence and our mental health. But it's really hard 457 00:29:13.799 --> 00:29:17.380 to build a movement and sell books with the message, sorry, 458 00:29:17.400 --> 00:29:22.000 your kid's just born that way. So does attachment parenting 459 00:29:22.279 --> 00:29:25.089 stack up? Science says no. 460 00:29:26.730 --> 00:29:26.890 No. 461 00:29:27.799 --> 00:29:30.059 What we've learnt is that we can push our kids 462 00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:32.880 around in strollers. We can bottle feed them. We can 463 00:29:32.920 --> 00:29:35.119 let them sleep in their cribs. We can let them 464 00:29:35.299 --> 00:29:39.140 cry a little and still be good parents. On the 465 00:29:39.160 --> 00:29:42.460 other hand... you can breastfeed your kids until kingdom come 466 00:29:42.539 --> 00:29:45.440 you cannot sleep train them and they'll still be fine 467 00:29:46.059 --> 00:29:49.849 we cannot be clearer there is no good scientific evidence 468 00:29:50.170 --> 00:29:53.289 that by following the rules of attachment parenting you'll end 469 00:29:53.369 --> 00:29:58.750 up with better kids so why is it such a 470 00:29:58.789 --> 00:30:03.430 popular idea Well, being a parent is scary. The mums 471 00:30:03.470 --> 00:30:05.710 and dads that I've talked to while working on this story, 472 00:30:05.769 --> 00:30:09.150 including our own Heather Rogers, all say that having so 473 00:30:09.190 --> 00:30:13.170 much control over this little human being, all the choices 474 00:30:13.430 --> 00:30:16.500 that that entails can feel overwhelming and the stakes can 475 00:30:16.539 --> 00:30:20.119 feel so high. But if you sacrifice all of your time, 476 00:30:20.200 --> 00:30:22.420 all of your energy, just like some of these websites 477 00:30:22.500 --> 00:30:25.160 and books tell you to, then maybe you can say, 478 00:30:25.180 --> 00:30:29.160 I've done everything I could. I've left no stone unturned. 479 00:30:30.500 --> 00:30:33.819 Heather put our scientific findings to Judy. She told her 480 00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:38.519 that the academic in attachment research, Alan Shroff, doesn't agree 481 00:30:38.579

--> 00:30:40.740 with the primary tenets of attachment parenting. 482 00:30:40.980 --> 00:30:44.440 He's saying that every parent who's attentive and is a 483 00:30:44.460 --> 00:30:48.569 good parent, but that gives people so many options that 484 00:30:48.609 --> 00:30:52.210 they don't really know what to do. I mean, that 485 00:30:52.250 --> 00:30:55.910 means everything's okay, so then how do you decide what 486 00:30:55.950 --> 00:30:58.569 to do? I know, like, when I had my son... 487 00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:02.039 I mean, ever since then, I just am kind of 488 00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:04.609 floored by how many decisions I have to make and 489 00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:07.690 how big they feel. I just like, I'm plagued by doubt. 490 00:31:08.009 --> 00:31:09.769 I'm doubting that I should have done it. 491 00:31:11.309 --> 00:31:13.910 I mean, in some ways when it's really hard or 492 00:31:14.690 --> 00:31:17.849 I'm always thinking like, yeah, sometimes it would be good 493 00:31:17.910 --> 00:31:20.349 to just say goodnight and leave them in the room 494 00:31:20.930 --> 00:31:22.349 because that's easier for me. 495 00:31:22.490 --> 00:31:26.900 But so why do, why make all the sacrifices? Because 496 00:31:26.920 --> 00:31:32.059 I can't stand the crying. And I think that it's, 497 00:31:34.609 --> 00:31:35.349 besides the cry. 498 00:31:35.470 --> 00:31:36.309 So it's for you. 499 00:31:36.470 --> 00:31:40.009 It's for me. If I didn't answer their cry, I 500 00:31:40.069 --> 00:31:42.650 couldn't manage. So I'd be too anxious. 501 00:31:45.609 --> 00:31:49.109 Yes, having a baby is scary. But that's no reason 502 00:31:49.170 --> 00:31:58.319 to follow bad advice. That's Science vs. Attachment Parenting. This 503 00:31:58.359 --> 00:32:01.240 episode has been produced by Heather Rogers, who interviewed our 504 00:32:01.259 --> 00:32:04.849 attachment parent, Judy, and also Caitlin Kenney and Caitlin Sori. 505 00:32:05.349 --> 00:32:09.329 Edited by Annie Rose Strasser and Alex Bloomberg. Production assistance 506 00:32:09.450 --> 00:32:12.670 by Austin Mitchell and Stevie Lane. Thanks to everyone at 507 00:32:12.710 --> 00:32:15.829 Gimlet who told us about their children. Even more thanks 508 00:32:15.890 --> 00:32:18.809 to everyone at Gimlet who didn't tell us about their children. 509 00:32:19.930 --> 00:32:22.980 Sound design and music production by Matthew Boll. Music was 510 00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:26.279 written by Bobby Lord. Science Versus is a production of 511 00:32:26.359 --> 00:32:40.009 Gimlet Media. Next on Science vs Gun Control. Just a 512 00:32:40.029 --> 00:32:42.589 quick note, if you enjoyed our show, you should also 513 00:32:42.630 --> 00:32:45.349 check out The Longest Shortest Time. They do a lot 514 00:32:45.390 --> 00:32:49.130 of great narrative and storytelling pieces about bringing up kids, 515 00:32:49.670 --> 00:32:52.269 but this week they're doing something a bit different and 516 00:32:52.329 --> 00:32:56.720 exploring the science of eating placentas. And in the story, 517 00:32:56.779 --> 00:33:01.579 they put a childless man to the ultimate test. First, 518 00:33:01.619 --> 00:33:04.400 I had a couple of questions for him. So what 519 00:33:04.460 --> 00:33:06.029 do you know about placentas? 520 00:33:06.309 --> 00:33:07.750 I know nothing. 521 00:33:07.930 --> 00:33:11.829 I would say the amount I know about placentas is 522 00:33:11.990 --> 00:33:17.680 that they are vaguely... I would use the word vague. 523 00:33:17.700 --> 00:33:17.940 I know that. 524 00:33:21.420 --> 00:33:23.309 Like a placenta is also called an afterbirth. 525 00:33:23.470 --> 00:33:24.470 Is that right? 526 00:33:24.670 --> 00:33:25.289 Is that a thing? 527 00:33:25.450 --> 00:33:28.470 Is that right? But they do come after birth, I think. 528 00:33:28.630 --> 00:33:30.869 They come out, and they're a thing. In my mind, 529 00:33:30.930 --> 00:33:33.630 when I picture a placenta, and I don't know if 530 00:33:33.670 --> 00:33:36.779 this is right. You know when Spider-Man shoots his web? 531 00:33:37.230 --> 00:33:39.960 Like the end part of that? But I don't know 532 00:33:40.019 --> 00:33:43.460 if that's at all what it... Literally, I've just told 533 00:33:43.480 --> 00:33:44.920 you everything I know about placentas. 534 00:33:45.950 --> 00:33:50.279 So are you inclined to believe that eating your own 535 00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:52.980 placenta could help your mental health? 536 00:33:53.779 --> 00:33:57.220 I have no idea what you just said or why 537 00:33:57.299 --> 00:34:00.640 someone would do that. That's not a thing in my 538 00:34:01.539 --> 00:34:03.799 knowledge of human experience. 539 00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:09.360 That's Hilary Frank, the host of The Longest Shortest Time. 540 00:34:09.389 --> 00:34:12.309 And in the story, they're going to explore whether eating 541 00:34:12.329 --> 00:34:16.550 your placenta after giving birth can help with postpartum depression. 542 00:34:17.130 --> 00:34:19.940 That's the longest, shortest time, and you can find them 543 00:34:20.099 --> 00:34:27.539 everywhere you listen to podcasts. Next time, science versus guns. 544 00:34:27.980 --> 00:34:30.519 Do more guns mean less crime? 545 00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:32.760 Didn't you think that everybody in there would look like 546 00:34:32.820 --> 00:34:34.550 Duck Dynasty characters? I did. 547 00:34:35.010 --> 00:34:36.610 This is absolutely true. 548 00:34:36.610 --> 00:34:39.829 50 years of the media perpetuating us as fat white 549 00:34:39.849 --> 00:34:42.349 guys with summer teeth, some over here, some over here, 550 00:34:42.860 --> 00:34:46.090 with a beard and suspenders and a baseball cap on 551 00:34:46.119 --> 00:34:48.190 and my Bible in my left hand and clinging to 552 00:34:48.230 --> 00:34:50.130 my gun in my right hand. Am I right? 553 00:34:50.369 --> 00:34:52.489 I'm Wendy Zuckerman. Back to you next time.