النص الكامل لحلقة 68- Prof. Milica Radisic- Creating interdependence in teams

enough knowledge. 00:02:37.377 --> 00:02:40.217 And I first came to McMaster in Hamilton. 00:02:40.842 --> 00:02:44.972 It's just a little bit south of Toronto to do my undergrad. 00:02:45.562 --> 00:02:49.282 And I came from Serbia all by myself when I was 20. 00:02:49.312 --> 00:02:54.681 There was one family who I knew in Hamilton who helped out for the first couple of months. 00:02:55.002 --> 00:02:57.771 And so that was, I think, a very significant step. 00:02:58.542 --> 00:03:02.301 and a big difference compared to what I was used to. 00:03:02.312 --> 00:03:07.961 That was probably the biggest change, the biggest step in all of my career. 00:03:08.051 --> 00:03:15.991 And I was really fortunate to be in the chemical engineering at McMaster because the class was small. 00:03:15.991 --> 00:03:18.512 I, I think back then, everything was smaller. 00:03:18.731 --> 00:03:19.931 This was in the nineties. 00:03:19.981 --> 00:03:23.581 Usually there weren't that many students in the programs. 00:03:24.141 --> 00:03:28.081 It was, the class of 40, approximately 40. 00:03:28.102 --> 00:03:36.632 So I found myself that I'm able to fit in quite well and I can follow what's going on, but it was a big difference, right? 00:03:36.641 --> 00:03:43.521 Taking school in another language, in another country, and I'm just learning about how things work. 00:03:43.692 --> 00:03:46.211 in a different system, getting new friends. 00:03:46.662 --> 00:03:50.752 And there was a really a group of spectacular professors. 00:03:50.752 --> 00:03:52.182 Most of them have retired. 00:03:53.182 --> 00:04:07.383 And in fact, Elizabeth Edwards who is a professor now in my department in chemical engineering at U of T, she taught the first class at McMaster when I came in Introduction to Chemical Engineering. 00:04:07.772 --> 00:04:13.983 And back then all the professors were men and she was the only one, she was the only woman. 00:04:14.643 --> 00:04:19.273 And got really nice mentoring also from Phil Wood, who's an amazing professor. 00:04:19.273 --> 00:04:23.333 So overall it was an outstanding experience at McMaster. 00:04:23.992 --> 00:04:30.793 And then I was in the last semester of the last year at McMaster, I was thinking, what, what should I do next? 00:04:31.002 --> 00:04:32.682 Where should I go? 00:04:32.923 --> 00:04:38.103 I want, I knew I wanted to do my PhD and I was thinking, where should I go? 00:04:38.132 --> 00:04:48.240 And I was in the library of McMaster University was, uh, people nowadays forget is that the journals came to libraries, right? 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:49.680 There were no online journals. 00:04:50.064 --> 00:04:51.754 I remember that period as well. 00:04:52.694 --> 00:05:24.704 And so you had to read papers in the library So I picked up a copy of Scientific American and inside there was a paper that Bob Langer wrote with Vacanti in 99 about tissue engineering, which was like a pretty new idea It just started in the 80s late 80s and people there weren't many people working on it and I read this paper about you know, that idea of taking cells, combining them with polymer scaffolds or natural scaffolds to create tissues. 00:05:24.735 --> 00:05:26.154 And I was just mesmerized. 00:05:26.154 --> 00:05:27.714 I knew I wanted to do that. 00:05:28.415 --> 00:05:34.014 So I applied I wrote to Bob Langer and I said I'll be, you know, I read your paper. 00:05:34.329 --> 00:05:44.069 paper and some, I wrote some self promotional message such as I've been at the top of every every class I ever took. 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:53.230 I really want to work with you on tissue engineering and he responded very nicely, you know, and very quickly. 00:05:53.230 --> 00:05:59.439 Bob is very good in responding fast and he said, Yeah, we'll be happy to consider you if you come to MIT. 00:05:59.540 --> 00:06:04.459 you have to be admitted to MIT first before you can work with any professor there. 00:06:04.959 --> 00:06:09.488 So I applied to seven, eight universities, mostly in the States. 00:06:09.601 --> 00:06:31.110 And basically, when I visited these places, I, I knew MIT is the place where I want to go because it had enough combination of breadth and depth that there were enough professors and enough projects in bio and in tissue engineering that I was confident that I would be able to find a project because in the U. 00:06:31.110 --> 00:06:31.321 S. 00:06:31.331 --> 00:06:33.286 schools, you have to be confident. 00:06:33.586 --> 00:06:50.396 accepted to the department first and then you're looking for a supervisor and if it's a department that only has one or two professors who are working in back then emerging areas, there weren't that many professors doing bio and chemical engineering, there wasn't a lot of guarantee that I'll be able to find the project. 00:06:50.406 --> 00:06:51.855 So that was it. 00:06:51.875 --> 00:06:57.336 Then I, I went to MIT and I ended up in Bob's lab. 00:06:58.336 --> 00:07:03.495 two very courageous steps, early on in your career, to leave your country and come to Canada. 00:07:03.526 --> 00:07:09.105 And then also the the daring approach of just sending a message to an eminent professor. 00:07:09.966 --> 00:07:15.706 What did you have within yourself that gave you the courage and the daring to just go for it? 00:07:16.605 --> 00:07:41.860 So basically I knew that It would be very difficult, not impossible, obviously, to get a career in science if I, if I didn't leave Serbia because back then the times were tough and just access to information was also difficult, right, to journals and textbooks and I knew the opportunity would be a lot less and it would be, a setback, right? 00:07:41.971 --> 00:07:43.261 Obviously not impossible. 00:07:43.261 --> 00:07:47.050 There are people who succeeded even by getting undergrad there. 00:07:47.860 --> 00:07:53.380 So I knew that it was like, if you want to make it in science, you should try this, do this stuff. 00:07:54.180 -->

00:07:59.630 And then for, for Grad school, it was that small area back then, right? 00:07:59.630 --> 00:08:02.711 Tissue engineering, there were only a few places that were doing that. 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:08.221 And if I really wanted to do that, I had to go to that place that's doing it. 00:08:08.290 --> 00:08:10.670 Otherwise I'll have to do something else, right? 00:08:10.750 --> 00:08:15.670 And I really wanted, I was really mesmerized by that paper about tissue engineering. 00:08:15.690 --> 00:08:17.230 And so it was kind of. 00:08:18.036 --> 00:08:20.036 almost like there is no other choice, right? 00:08:20.235 --> 00:08:23.346 If you want to do this, that's the only choice that you have to follow. 00:08:24.103 --> 00:08:27.023 You said that you read something in the New Scientist. 00:08:27.392 --> 00:08:28.362 scientific American. 00:08:28.391 --> 00:08:28.641 It was 00:08:28.797 --> 00:08:29.156 Yeah. 00:08:29.576 --> 00:08:43.027 And it's funny because I mean, it's considered, a magazine of, scientific communication, but you're actually not the first person who said to me that actually an article in that type of magazine really influenced the choice of research that you wanted to do. 00:08:43.407 --> 00:08:53.506 And in a way it's kind of a message to, the research community, how these articles really influence the decisions that, potential graduate students made to, to reach out or not. 00:08:54.432 --> 00:09:12.652 Yeah, I think the excellent menus, scientific American or new scientists, because if you are a student, let's say a high school student or an undergraduate student, you don't have enough knowledge to follow, like to read a whole paper in nature or science and to understand what's going on, right? 00:09:13.032 --> 00:09:14.991 And actually, it's a very dense reading. 00:09:14.991 --> 00:09:16.682 It could actually be quite deterring. 00:09:17.297 --> 00:09:28.027 But the way the messaging is written, in Scientific American or New Scientist, it's accessible to anybody, and but it's also accurate, right? 00:09:28.027 --> 00:09:29.407 It's also accurately written. 00:09:29.996 --> 00:09:31.927 So I think they're perfect values, right? 00:09:31.966 --> 00:09:38.606 Nowadays we have a wealth of information everywhere, but a lot of that information has nothing to do with truth, 00:09:39.606 --> 00:09:45.047 And especially on social media, yeah, a lot, a lot of you know, bad information is shared. 00:09:45.567 --> 00:09:58.136 So when you think about, the period that you had as a, PhD student, what do you feel was really significant in getting you to move on really focusing on what you wanted to work later on? 00:09:58.417 --> 00:10:01.017 What was your experience of, graduate school like? 00:10:01.969 --> 00:10:04.278 it was an excellent experience. 00:10:04.359 --> 00:10:17.719 Obviously, a lot of work, a lot of hard work, and the when, if you're at MIT, let's say, Bob's Lab, places like, like top universities like that, they

attract the best people. 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:24.509 And then because it's very difficult to be admitted, there is both self selection. 00:10:25.099 --> 00:11:04.624 Who applied, and also there is selection at the site, so you're really surrounded by the most motivated, probably most creative individuals that you can find around, and it was a lot of work that, for example, in Bob's lab, I met Gordana Bunjak, who is a professor at Columbia, and I worked with her very closely, she was a PI in Bob's lab, because Bob's lab is very large, and there are usually people who are PIs, they're running their own projects, they bring their own money, external money from funding agencies such as NIH or NASA or other agencies and so Gurdana was there at that time. 00:11:04.624 --> 00:11:17.854 She has been a professor at Columbia now for almost 20 years and so I had the pleasure really and privilege of working with her as, as well and, for example Ali Khedem Hosseini, who is director of the Terasaki Institute. 00:11:17.864 --> 00:11:18.543 He was my office mate. 00:11:18.543 --> 00:11:24.874 Guillermo Mir, who is also director of a center in Northwestern, was my office mate. 00:11:25.494 --> 00:11:31.333 And it was just you know, really a huge privilege to be surrounded by, by people like that. 00:11:31.474 --> 00:11:44.078 And it's very motivational because you can have really good conversations with people who are you know, challenging scientific norms and developing new technologies. 00:11:44.798 --> 00:11:52.408 And also you see what other people are doing, you know, what are they publishing, how fast are they publishing. 00:11:52.899 --> 00:12:02.933 So overall it was a very stimulating environment that ensured that you Can reach your maximum productivity. 00:12:03.933 --> 00:12:12.889 that sort of environment where there is, you know people who are really highly motivated, highly intelligent, there is also a lot of competition. 00:12:12.940 --> 00:12:21.350 How did you manage that element of competition in the way that, The work is hard, but actually looking after ourself is also important. 00:12:21.350 --> 00:12:25.070 So how did you find a balance to be resilient in that space? 00:12:25.524 --> 00:12:43.004 so actually it was a very healthy environment It was very very healthy I didn't feel that there was any internal competition or you know People's matching projects for one another a lot of that depends on comes from the top, right? 00:12:43.085 --> 00:13:05.038 It comes from the PI and People who are more in senior more supervisory roles And Bob is very generous, and Gurdana is also very generous, and all people who were there in senior roles, they're very generous, and they, the way they deal with their collaborators and other others in the lab sets the tone, right? 00:13:05.874 --> 00:13:11.104 I didn't feel there was any internal competition in any way that would be detrimental. 00:13:11.274 --> 00:13:12.864 So that was, that was a really good thing. 00:13:12.864 --> 00:13:18.423 You have to create a lab where people are interdependent, right, on one another and not competing. 00:13:19.073 --> 00:13:25.153 And In that way, everybody ends up with a lot of publications and recognition, discoveries, etc. 00:13:25.953 --> 00:13:27.453 So I think that's the key, right? 00:13:27.474 --> 00:13:35.394 That interdependence on a lot of members, on one another, where everybody is enabling other people to succeed. 00:13:35.474 --> 00:13:39.923 Because you can't succeed by yourself in anything, right? 00:13:40.423 --> 00:13:42.943 We depend on other people. 00:13:43.943 --> 00:13:50.234 I think this is true in anything, not just in lab work, in life, in any area of human activity. 00:13:50.563 --> 00:13:56.823 So, the key is really to set up that interdependence of 00:13:57.014 --> 00:14:10.043 I mean, it's a very good, yeah, it's a very good term interdependence and instead of, you know, having postdoc working alongside each other on their own thing, but not relying on each other and supporting each other in project goals. 00:14:10.043 --> 00:14:10.323 Yeah. 00:14:10.884 --> 00:14:11.464 yeah, yeah. 00:14:11.504 --> 00:14:22.813 It's, I mean, it's very easy to see how this is necessary, because even, you know, There are different techniques and different, for example, measurements that have to be carried out. 00:14:23.683 --> 00:14:27.734 Some people are very skilled and it's easy for them to do certain measurements. 00:14:28.234 --> 00:14:31.073 If they're in the same lab, why not divide this work, right? 00:14:31.114 --> 00:14:42.703 And if you're creating a new technology or investigating a new scientific question Different people could do different techniques and they all contribute the results towards the final publication. 00:14:43.703 --> 00:14:57.293 Do you think that, I mean, experiencing that, you know, that an ethos of interdependence during your, during your PhD, do you think that it's really shaping the way that you actually design projects now in terms of your own group? 00:14:58.278 --> 00:15:04.989 I, I think for sure I try to also instill that sense of sharing and interdependence. 00:15:05.038 --> 00:15:07.418 People are dependent on one another, working together. 00:15:07.438 --> 00:15:09.899 So I try to do that for sure. 00:15:09.899 --> 00:15:16.979 We have to make sure that personalities we recruit, that people like to be in that environment. 00:15:17.019 --> 00:15:19.568 Some people just like to work by themselves. 00:15:19.578 --> 00:15:20.578 So that's also fine. 00:15:20.609 --> 00:15:26.788 It's just probably a little bit more time is necessary if you wanna work like that. 00:15:27.352 --> 00:15:33.028 So at the end of your PhD, you stayed in the same research group to, to do a postdoc? 00:15:33.913 --> 00:16:05.072 Yeah, at the end of the PhD, towards the end that was in 2004, I interviewed at the University of Toronto, and that was in February before I defended my PhD,

but most of my papers were done, and I interviewed at U of T, and they after a few months, let's say in August or something like that, they made me an offer, so they offered me this job, and I I asked if I could stay one more year in Bob's lab to do a postdoc, because it's very valuable to do something like that. 00:16:05.352 --> 00:16:10.393 And yeah, they said they'll wait a year and then I need to, I need to come. 00:16:10.423 --> 00:16:12.013 So that, that was it. 00:16:12.062 --> 00:16:13.452 I didn't really interview much. 00:16:13.482 --> 00:16:15.062 I just interviewed at U of T. 00:16:16.023 --> 00:16:19.363 And that's the only place I applied to, so I just took that offer. 00:16:19.753 --> 00:16:22.013 Wasn't it well thought out or not? 00:16:22.102 --> 00:16:23.623 It worked out. 00:16:24.623 --> 00:16:31.883 I guess when you're at the end of your PhD and somebody makes you a job offer like assistant professor, you don't try looking some more. 00:16:32.477 --> 00:16:32.748 Yeah. 00:16:32.748 --> 00:16:40.306 And it is very unusual because often people will have several postdocs before being in a position to apply for that type of position. 00:16:40.349 --> 00:16:42.798 yeah, back then, that was almost 20 years ago, right? 00:16:42.808 --> 00:17:05.215 Like, and it was unusual, but not that unusual, you know, there were others also who got offers at the end of PhD, but I, like you, you didn't need a postdoc in most cases, but it wasn't like, oh, unheard of that somebody would be offered a job right after the PhD, especially because we were in engineering. 00:17:06.036 --> 00:17:15.175 And it was more in life sciences, the traditional longer postdoc was common, but in engineering, because there was a lot of demand for engineers in the workforce. 00:17:15.786 --> 00:17:18.915 And then sometimes it was, you know, back then, maybe. 00:17:19.520 --> 00:17:25.871 not as much competition in the academic world, but that has changed. 00:17:26.221 --> 00:17:36.010 And now I think people need a long postdoc, which is fine also, because now I see that assistant professors, they come and they can do a lot more things. 00:17:36.010 --> 00:17:41.411 They get the first grant, like CHR grant within the first two, three years. 00:17:41.941 --> 00:17:44.681 That for us was very difficult, right? 00:17:44.730 --> 00:17:57.336 We would We have to wait longer, maybe five, six years before we can get that, and keep trying because it's almost like you haven't, you know, had that experience with your PhD supervisor or during postdoc. 00:17:57.375 --> 00:18:03.276 But now when they do longer postdocs, they're writing proposals and they're a lot more ready to dive in. 00:18:03.980 --> 00:18:09.401 So how did it feel that transition of, getting, your first academic posts fairly quickly? 00:18:09.790 --> 00:18:18.401 in term of starting to apply for funding, recruiting your first students, these first few years are pretty mental in term of the, the range of. 00:18:18.756 --> 00:18:24.455 activities that you have to show yourself that are different from just doing the research. 00:18:24.455 --> 00:18:24.736 I 00:18:25.135 --> 00:18:29.496 So, yeah, but let's first talk about getting the job is actually. 00:18:30.496 --> 00:18:33.726 So I said I interviewed and I got the job, right? 00:18:33.746 --> 00:18:37.006 But there was actually quite a lot of prep for that interview, right? 00:18:37.016 --> 00:18:39.336 Like I only. 00:18:39.756 --> 00:18:42.996 I had a daughter during my Ph. 00:18:42.996 --> 00:18:43.165 D. 00:18:43.165 --> 00:18:46.719 and another during my postdoc, So I didn't really go to a lot of conferences. 00:18:46.719 --> 00:18:49.659 I only went two times at the end of my Ph. 00:18:49.659 --> 00:18:50.098 D., right? 00:18:50.098 --> 00:18:54.388 So I only presented publicly, maybe three times during that entire Ph. 00:18:54.388 --> 00:18:54.689 D. 00:18:55.159 --> 00:19:02.528 And I, you know, I really encourage, and I've almost I don't want to say force, but encourage my students to go and present. 00:19:02.568 --> 00:19:06.179 I think that's really important to develop their presentation skills. 00:19:06.179 --> 00:19:13.469 But then you have to give this interview, which is an hour long seminar, and then another, like, deeper interview with the search community. 00:19:13.479 --> 00:19:14.749 So there was a lot of prep. 00:19:14.749 --> 00:19:41.367 I was, like, reading about there were resources at MIT compiled back then online about how to prepare for an interview, et cetera, and what to say and how to organize a presentation, and, but also we practiced, and that's the key, right, and we practiced in the group meeting, but also the postdocs and, later graduate students, we would get together on Saturday and practice. 00:19:42.157 --> 00:19:48.458 And Ali Kadam Hosseini said Oh, really, there is this group of you know, people practicing job talks. 00:19:48.468 --> 00:19:51.327 Do you want to, do you want to join the group? 00:19:51.928 --> 00:19:52.938 And I said, yeah, yeah. 00:19:52.948 --> 00:19:56.728 So we would go and somebody would present and other people would give feedback. 00:19:56.768 --> 00:19:57.887 But who was in the group? 00:19:57.887 --> 00:20:03.077 In the group was Ali Kadam Hosseini, Jason Burdick, Sam Siha, myself. 00:20:03.327 --> 00:20:06.077 Everybody became a famous professor afterwards, right? 00:20:06.077 --> 00:20:07.137 The key, I guess. 00:20:07.377 --> 00:20:17.968 is practical and have other scientists hear your talk and your ideas and then really challenge them in a positive way, right? 00:20:18.018 --> 00:20:28.028 So that you can add depth to your ideas and, and question if this is the direction that, that you want to go, right? 00:20:28.028 --> 00:20:33.298 So when, when you're interviewing in a job talk, right? 00:20:33.667 --> 00:20:40.022 The Your record publication record, where you're trained, that gets you the interview, right? 00:20:40.053

--> 00:20:44.093 That's what I can help, or any professor can help the trainee. 00:20:44.403 --> 00:20:50.772 make sure they're publishing well, and they have exposure to conferences, etc. 00:20:50.772 --> 00:20:53.682 But once you're interviewing, right, it's you, only you. 00:20:54.262 --> 00:20:57.042 And, your ideas have to be quite well developed. 00:20:57.042 --> 00:21:08.603 There has to be a research program that's impactful, that Will transform things over 30 or 40 years and you have to be able to tell a story and sometimes, you know I ask my trainees. 00:21:08.603 --> 00:21:21.199 I usually tell them what's gonna be possible so you have to think about something really long term and transformative, a problem that's both important and that hasn't been solved because it's hard, right? 00:21:21.828 --> 00:21:24.108 And how do you fit in that environment? 00:21:24.118 --> 00:21:30.179 So you have to think about all those things really, and I would say there was a lot of prep into that one, that went into that one interview. 00:21:30.288 --> 00:21:32.138 It was many months of preparation. 00:21:32.455 --> 00:21:49.871 One of the things that I pick from what you just said, is that actually having a group of people with whom you can do that and having peers and It's interesting because I think that you know, from 20 years ago, the environment has changed tremendously in terms of the support offered for PhD student and postdoc. 00:21:49.971 --> 00:21:56.710 You know, in most major universities, will be a group of trainers and coaches to support that process. 00:21:56.990 --> 00:22:07.710 However, I think that taking control of what you need and having a group of peers with whom you can, you know, brainstorm research ideas and practice your interview. 00:22:08.634 --> 00:22:13.884 is really key because you can't expect other people to have everything in place for you to prepare. 00:22:14.164 --> 00:22:15.835 And the PI can't do everything. 00:22:16.589 --> 00:22:22.599 Yeah, no, the PI cannot help you, and the, the PI literally cannot help you. 00:22:22.619 --> 00:22:29.799 They can tell you things that I just said in this couple minutes, like, you should have depth in your idea, etc. 00:22:29.799 --> 00:22:33.690 But really, the honest isn't new to come up with those ideas. 00:22:33.690 --> 00:22:37.009 And that's actually very hard, even for senior people. 00:22:37.809 --> 00:22:44.529 We know when we are writing a grant proposal, right, like we are really struggling to articulate our ideas. 00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:48.009 And it, sometimes it's a very draining process. 00:22:48.009 --> 00:23:02.220 But if you're proposing your entire research program that's supposed to cover something like 30, 40 years, It's many, many projects that you have to think about how they will fit together and what are the important questions so that that takes a little bit of time. 00:23:02.220 --> 00:23:17.460 And I guess being in that environment at MIT around Bob and you're surrounded by good, like really good people Bob also runs group meetings where the and back then people who were interviewing for different jobs. 00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:20.000 They could also present in that meeting, right? 00:23:20.069 --> 00:23:23.420 Having that was very, very good, very important. 00:23:24.369 --> 00:23:35.049 and there is also the thing of seeing how others present and how they present their ideas, because you're learning as much from seeing others do it, than doing it yourself. 00:23:35.049 --> 00:23:44.038 It's funny because I often with the work that I've done with PhD and often people will say, well, I don't really attend many of the seminars because it's not exactly, you know, my area. 00:23:44.377 --> 00:23:54.428 And I think of being exposed to other ideas that may not be exactly what you're working on, but are actually part of the fuel that is needed for you to build your project. 00:23:54.448 --> 00:24:02.298 And there is often a reticence because everybody's busy, he's got too much to do, but actually exposure to different ideas is really critical. 00:24:03.258 --> 00:24:04.478 yeah, absolutely. 00:24:04.557 --> 00:24:21.438 I think it's absolutely critical for a scientist who wants to pursue academic career in this way, even if you're interviewing for industry job, I think in big pharma biotech companies, they look for very similar things and absolutely critical. 00:24:21.478 --> 00:24:33.508 You should go and see other people's interviews because you know, any university, any department over a period of time, there will be recruiting people and there will be potential candidates coming, giving seminars. 00:24:33.583 --> 00:24:39.353 Even if it's not in your research area, I think it's really important to go and then you will see who got hired, right? 00:24:39.482 --> 00:24:42.623 And then you'll have a sense which seminar went well. 00:24:42.633 --> 00:24:52.863 Sometimes, you know, a good person may have multiple offers, so it could be a good seminar and they may not show up in the department, but you'll have a good sense of who did well, who didn't. 00:24:53.357 --> 00:24:57.258 Do well and accordingly you can tailor your presentation. 00:24:58.248 --> 00:25:08.923 So I'll be interested now in exploring, way that you've set up your research group and, that process of transition from, being recruited to establishing yourself. 00:25:08.923 --> 00:25:13.564 I mean, there are many, many steps in the process of building a research group. 00:25:13.874 --> 00:25:22.193 So I think this sounds, may sound a little bit like, Oh, back in the day we had to walk through the snow to get to school. 00:25:22.834 --> 00:25:24.874 But there is an element of that. 00:25:24.884 --> 00:25:28.013 So first of all the postdocs are longer now. 00:25:28.253 --> 00:25:42.269 But the startup packages are, many, many times bigger than what we used to get especially in Canada there was a huge discrepancy between even 20 years ago,

what my peers were getting in the U. 00:25:42.269 --> 00:25:42.608 S. 00:25:42.659 --> 00:25:47.439 as a startup and what we were getting here in Canada, most of us. 00:25:48.413 --> 00:25:52.972 now it's not unusual to get a startup package that's a million dollars or even more, right? 00:25:52.972 --> 00:26:04.866 Even for an assistant professor, and we started from 40, 000 of spending money and 300, 000 CFI grant that you have to write for equipment, right? 00:26:05.636 --> 00:26:07.106 And nowadays it's not unusual. 00:26:07.106 --> 00:26:15.727 You get a million dollars of spending money and the CFI grant to write that you have to write that you may or may not get, but usually if you're good, you get it. 00:26:15.787 --> 00:26:18.436 And so it's a huge difference, right? 00:26:18.457 --> 00:26:19.946 40, 000 versus a million. 00:26:20.346 --> 00:26:22.047 What can you do with 48, 000? 00:26:22.297 --> 00:26:23.787 And probably not much. 00:26:23.826 --> 00:26:27.037 And so it was just a very, very different game. 00:26:27.116 --> 00:26:32.467 And I find that Now it's harder, maybe a bit harder, to get a position. 00:26:32.467 --> 00:26:39.076 You need a longer postdoc, but usually resources are given that really enable you to hit the ground running. 00:26:39.086 --> 00:26:45.926 And you can see very quickly assistant professors, they are publishing really top transformative papers. 00:26:46.926 --> 00:26:48.356 Attracting more funding. 00:26:48.376 --> 00:26:55.727 I think for us, it just took a long, longer, a bit longer time to get there because with 40, 000, well, you're going to get two students. 00:26:55.757 --> 00:26:56.836 What can they do? 00:26:56.886 --> 00:26:57.136 Right? 00:26:57.386 --> 00:27:03.386 You have to wait for your first answer grant to come through and then you write another foundation grant. 00:27:04.037 --> 00:27:07.037 Maybe, like in my case, it was the Heart and Stroke Foundation. 00:27:07.037 --> 00:27:08.257 I'm very thankful to them. 00:27:08.477 --> 00:27:12.346 Or the JDFR, Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation. 00:27:12.376 --> 00:27:13.807 Those are my first grants, right? 00:27:13.807 --> 00:27:15.076 You're very thankful to them. 00:27:15.436 --> 00:27:27.747 Then you hire a bit more students, then they can do a bit more, like you can't even write a CHR grant because you just don't have enough material to, to put in there. 00:27:28.096 --> 00:27:32.027 but if you have a million dollar startup, you can hire five, six students right away. 00:27:32.047 --> 00:27:32.396 Right. 00:27:32.686 --> 00:27:43.326 So it was just, a different scale or a different pace at which we were moving and we had to be very resourceful with everything that we are buying or using in terms of materials. 00:27:44.326 --> 00:27:47.277 So, what were the challenges in, in growing your team? 00:27:47.277 --> 00:28:02.227 I mean, in a way there is an advantage to growing your team quite slowly, if you're given a huge amount of funding

and then you suddenly have, you know, three PhD students starting with you and you've actually never formally supervised anyone, it's actually pretty challenging. 00:28:02.616 --> 00:28:17.406 So What do you think that you did well in sort of building your research group you know, step by step, what were, I don't know, practices or things that you did that were really important of creating a team that worked for you. 00:28:17.750 --> 00:28:21.549 well, you, you have to make sure that every person succeeds, right? 00:28:21.569 --> 00:28:23.210 Because that's the only way, right? 00:28:23.250 --> 00:28:24.680 Everybody has to succeed. 00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:28.430 And and then as a group we succeed, right? 00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:32.880 It can be like, oh, I'm going to succeed, but you're not going to succeed, right? 00:28:33.299 --> 00:28:34.930 So it's not going to be like that. 00:28:34.970 --> 00:28:39.009 Like, everybody has to succeed for the group to succeed. 00:28:39.109 --> 00:28:41.980 So my first student was Rohi Nair. 00:28:42.029 --> 00:28:43.329 He's really great. 00:28:43.349 --> 00:28:44.859 He's doing actually really well. 00:28:44.859 --> 00:28:49.779 He's now has a a leading position in a cell manufacturing company. 00:28:50.430 --> 00:29:05.359 And The key is, and it's sometimes really hard to tell while you are interviewing you should, hopefully your first students will be very generous people, hopefully, like generous with their time. 00:29:06.019 --> 00:29:10.029 And, we're willing to do things that, like lab setup. 00:29:10.259 --> 00:29:12.069 What are they getting out of it, right? 00:29:12.420 --> 00:29:16.920 So there is a lot of tasks in a new lab that have to be done. 00:29:17.890 --> 00:29:23.400 That don't necessarily contribute to the mission of the PhD students, right? 00:29:24.265 --> 00:29:34.015 But they just have to be done and so hopefully that first one or two students that you get will be really team players and they will be willing to do this. 00:29:34.634 --> 00:29:36.664 And so Rohin was my first student. 00:29:36.674 --> 00:29:38.904 My second student was Mel, Mel Brown. 00:29:38.904 --> 00:29:44.375 She's I think with in Ottawa with used to be with Abbott and so they were both great, right? 00:29:44.375 --> 00:29:46.484 They're really, really generous. 00:29:47.484 --> 00:29:48.355 With their time. 00:29:48.355 --> 00:29:52.494 They published well and they, they did overall really well, and they have good careers. 00:29:52.644 --> 00:29:55.414 And so what's in it for the students? 00:29:55.474 --> 00:30:10.730 And I, I've been told multiple times and people have written to me that the experience that they got, like if they have to do many different things in terms of lab organization and everything that they, in the workplace, it was really easy for them later on. 00:30:11.730 --> 00:30:17.890 Because they knew how to do so many different things and they would say, oh, it was a walk in the park. 00:30:17.890 --> 00:30:20.730 I got to my work and I knew everything. 00:30:20.730 --> 00:30:26.990 I knew everything from the lab work or I knew how to set up a new lab. 00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:29.420 I knew how to fill the forms for something. 00:30:29.420 --> 00:30:34.160 So that's, that's the benefit of the training in that kind of new lab environment. 00:30:35.160 --> 00:30:43.723 I mean, in a way it's enabling people to develop a lot of the transferable skills that, you know highly valued in, non academic research 00:30:44.249 --> 00:30:45.969 yeah, they're valued anywhere, right? 00:30:46.009 --> 00:30:50.499 Those, like, if you are self reliant and able to find information. 00:30:51.128 --> 00:30:53.078 There are so many different tasks, right? 00:30:53.078 --> 00:30:58.159 In running a bio lab, like you have to get all kinds of different permits. 00:30:58.169 --> 00:31:00.888 If you have an animal protocol, you have to deal with that. 00:31:00.888 --> 00:31:06.558 You have to order materials and supplies, talk to vendors, set up accounts, right? 00:31:06.969 --> 00:31:14.038 And those are really so many different types of skills, dealing with people, being accurate, expressing yourself, writing. 00:31:15.038 --> 00:31:17.169 All of that is so, so important. 00:31:17.239 --> 00:31:20.409 That's the benefit, right, of being in a, in a small lab. 00:31:21.409 --> 00:31:35.068 what do you think that, you did well as you progressed in your career, because you have to apply for multiple funding and the expectation that are placed on you, by the department and with the teaching and everything kind of expand. 00:31:35.489 --> 00:31:52.308 So how did you go about deciding, okay, that's the right opportunity for me to take, or I'm going to take this opportunity and know this one, what were moments of juncture that you had where you had to make difficult choices in terms of the direction of the work that you did? 00:31:53.308 --> 00:32:08.699 I think in terms of direction of the work, right, you, if you just talk about science itself, right, it's the key to go to conferences and meetings and meet people and listen to what other people are saying. 00:32:09.548 --> 00:32:09.868 Right? 00:32:09.909 --> 00:32:13.239 Listen to the talks and see what other people are talking about. 00:32:13.818 --> 00:32:17.909 And what are really problems for everyone, right? 00:32:17.989 --> 00:32:25.058 It could, you could have a problem that's just for your lab because you don't know, like maybe you're not doing something well, right? 00:32:25.538 --> 00:32:37.229 But if you go to conferences and you're listening to the talks and talking during the coffee break to people and what is it that everybody is struggling with? 00:32:37.439 --> 00:32:40.449 Those are the big questions that are probably worthwhile your time. 00:32:41.229 --> 00:32:52.509 So picking kind of the right research direction, I think often informed by that you have to talk to other scientists and

listen to their presentations. 00:32:53.028 --> 00:33:02.528 Sometimes, you know, there are some areas that are a little bit hyped and you can think about do you want to be in that area or not, it's always like that. 00:33:03.128 --> 00:33:07.538 And I think It's not a good idea just to go from one hype to another. 00:33:07.538 --> 00:33:16.578 You should have some kind of mission, but it does help with funding if your research area at that moment has a little bit of hype because that's where the funding will be. 00:33:17.298 --> 00:33:20.528 So I think all of that has to be balanced. 00:33:20.568 --> 00:33:22.679 The ability to attract funding, right? 00:33:22.679 --> 00:33:26.689 You have to also listen to what the reviewers are saying. 00:33:27.108 --> 00:33:30.348 If you write your proposal, read the comments, what are they saying? 00:33:30.419 --> 00:33:33.528 You know, how could you correct that research direction? 00:33:33.538 --> 00:33:37.548 So With all of that there is like an intersection, right? 00:33:37.548 --> 00:33:41.669 You find your own research direction and the problems to, to work on. 00:33:42.519 --> 00:33:48.838 And then we also have strategic decisions, like which tasks should you do and accept and which ones you shouldn't. 00:33:49.509 --> 00:34:06.183 I actually think I'm probably not very good in that I still very struggle very much thinking about prioritizing and what is it that I should take and what is it that I should pass on and it's a huge challenge because so many things seem so interesting and there's only 24 hours in a day 00:34:06.454 --> 00:34:07.755 so what is your strategy? 00:34:07.755 --> 00:34:16.414 Cause looking at your CV, you've been involved in a lot of translational work, you've set up companies, you've been involved in such a diverse type of activities. 00:34:17.059 --> 00:34:24.019 So how did you go about deciding, okay, yes, I'll sit on this committee, or yes, I'll get involved with this company. 00:34:25.492 --> 00:34:28.461 wasn't a strategic approach, unfortunately. 00:34:29.032 --> 00:34:33.181 It was I would say a little bit of brute force and a lot of stamina. 00:34:33.931 --> 00:34:35.331 And sleepless nights. 00:34:35.942 --> 00:34:38.271 I don't know how to describe it differently. 00:34:38.652 --> 00:35:01.257 It was just, I think I got excited about Ideas and, and, and things and doing things and then I just try to get it done and so what I'm trying now to be a little bit more thoughtful about what I get involved with and I would say maybe one thing that could slightly slightly kind of check in guide what you're working on. 00:35:01.268 --> 00:35:06.097 Obviously, you know, there are three areas of activity that we have as professors. 00:35:06.217 --> 00:35:11.007 It would be teaching, research and service, like, let's say, academic administration. 00:35:11.887 --> 00:35:14.097 And there are different types of service, right? 00:35:14.097 --> 00:35:17.478 That could be could be organizing conferences, reviewing grants, et cetera. 00:35:17.847 --> 00:35:25.213 So, By now you should have an idea which of those three you really enjoy the most and which ones you enjoy the least, right? 00:35:25.213 --> 00:35:27.233 So I think I have some ideas about that. 00:35:27.362 --> 00:35:29.092 Definitely I enjoy research the most. 00:35:29.853 --> 00:35:37.123 And so that could guide some of your decisions about what kind of committees and what kind of duties you want to take outside of that. 00:35:37.143 --> 00:35:51.137 But even if you pick one of them and you say I really want to excel in teaching or in research or in service, then there is so much that you could do within that one area that becomes more, more difficult to decide. 00:35:51.137 --> 00:35:59.663 And maybe a part of it should be there is always teams and the carrying out certain work, right? 00:35:59.663 --> 00:36:02.302 So you just want to make sure you're part of the best team, right? 00:36:02.512 --> 00:36:11.432 That you're really operating at the top of the, of your ability together with people who are top in their area and at the top of their ability. 00:36:11.432 --> 00:36:14.503 So that could be one of the ways of looking at it. 00:36:14.532 --> 00:36:15.992 I'm not saying it's the best way. 00:36:15.992 --> 00:36:20.893 I definitely haven't figured this out, but it could be, it could be one way to look at it. 00:36:21.733 --> 00:36:25.842 Do you think that you've changed in the approach that you have of deciding? 00:36:26.152 --> 00:36:28.882 You know, I do a lot of coaching with academics. 00:36:28.943 --> 00:36:45.112 And one of the things that comes over and over again is, just having too much on their plates and, this idea of, what do I prioritize, in terms of things that I want to do, the kind of research leader I want to become, what will be expected of me for, you know, for promotion. 00:36:45.413 --> 00:36:47.822 So making this decision is very, is very hard. 00:36:47.822 --> 00:36:53.722 So initially people tend to take everything and then you may be become a little bit more discerning. 00:36:53.722 --> 00:37:06.813 well, so when I was just starting, when I was an assistant professor, right, I would take literally every opportunity that came my way, and I don't think that's a bad idea because you know, your plate is still not that full. 00:37:06.822 --> 00:37:08.643 You think it's full, but it's actually not. 00:37:08.902 --> 00:37:12.922 And all of those opportunities turn into something else, right? 00:37:12.972 --> 00:37:16.032 That's how you build your visibility. 00:37:16.583 --> 00:37:24.202 If somebody invites you to give a talk somewhere, an MRS or somewhere, you should go, you should pay your own way and go, right? 00:37:24.222 --> 00:37:34.362 If somebody invites you to review paper, sometimes I'm a journal editor for multiple journals and I sometimes invite a junior person and they don't want to review a paper. 00:37:34.362 -->

00:37:35.983 I'm thinking, what are you doing? 00:37:36.043 --> 00:37:37.463 You know, it's like, why not? 00:37:38.112 --> 00:38:08.858 And so I think definitely you should be taking a lot that comes your way because in reality not a lot is coming your way when you think about that and you take that every opportunity right because what I usually also I think in this career you're like an air it's an airplane you're either going up or down it's very hard to be at the cruising altitude any career that's what I think at the essence of capitalism, which is the system that we operate in, you're either going up or down. 00:38:09.090 --> 00:38:15.481 Even you can see that with big companies, they have to constantly struggle to, to go up and to stay at the top, right? 00:38:16.001 --> 00:38:24.130 So if you, you know, reject something, that somebody invites you to give a talk, your assistant professor, you rejected it, you're not going to be invited the second time, right? 00:38:24.990 --> 00:38:27.581 So it depends on your career stage. 00:38:27.800 --> 00:38:28.440 I think. 00:38:29.335 --> 00:38:31.806 At that career stage, it makes sense to do that. 00:38:31.856 --> 00:38:36.465 And then, but later on you have to think about what do you prioritize, really. 00:38:36.465 --> 00:38:39.496 And maybe you can start with those three big areas. 00:38:40.076 --> 00:38:43.005 And then think about, you know, which way do you want to go. 00:38:43.005 --> 00:38:48.135 And at a certain time in your career, you also have to start thinking what do you enjoy doing. 00:38:48.498 --> 00:38:50.818 Because you don't always do things that you enjoy. 00:38:51.818 --> 00:38:54.009 And I think that's a difference. 00:38:54.028 --> 00:39:02.443 You have to be a if you're a professional in something, you do things well, regardless if you enjoy them or not, right? 00:39:02.443 --> 00:39:03.434 You just do things. 00:39:04.054 --> 00:39:09.554 And so, but then as you're going through a career, you can start thinking, what is it that I really enjoy doing? 00:39:10.123 --> 00:39:15.673 And I want to take more of those opportunities and less of those that I don't enjoy that much. 00:39:16.724 --> 00:39:23.784 depending on the institution, the department, you know, the culture of the environment can vary greatly. 00:39:24.173 --> 00:39:39.753 What do you think, you know, in your own experience, in your institution, have been things that have really supported you in your development as a research leader and what's been really in the way of you basically growing, in the way that you wanted. 00:39:40.753 --> 00:39:51.974 If I think about the University of Toronto and its affiliated hospitals, the benefits of that environment are that there are many, many scientists who are outstanding. 00:39:52.974 --> 00:39:56.744 And, again, it goes back to that idea of the environment. 00:39:56.824 --> 00:40:08.724 And there are also good core facilities in the city, if you look at you know, seven

hospital research institutes plus the university. 00:40:09.373 --> 00:40:19.094 Technically, if you want to do anything from RNA sequencing to micro fabrication, there are facilities in the city that you can do that. 00:40:19.273 --> 00:40:27.094 And I think the university and the research institutes have done a good job providing space for those facilities. 00:40:27.094 --> 00:40:33.474 Obviously, profs, usually scientists, write grants to research funding to bring the equipment in. 00:40:34.353 --> 00:40:38.978 And so you have people and equipment, which is really Excellent, right? 00:40:38.978 --> 00:40:42.338 You can find a collaborator pretty much in anything in the city. 00:40:42.989 --> 00:40:43.949 So that was really good. 00:40:44.228 --> 00:40:46.018 I think that's actually very rare. 00:40:46.048 --> 00:40:50.159 I travel a lot and I can't, you don't see that very much. 00:40:51.159 --> 00:40:56.699 But also at the same time, University of Toronto is one of the oldest universities in Canada. 00:40:57.253 --> 00:41:10.563 And the sometimes bureaucratic policies and just the way paperwork flows is more reminiscent of those early days of the university in the 1800s than in the 21st century. 00:41:11.539 --> 00:41:39.818 And so I think the sometimes it's the incredible amount of time that you spend dealing with paperwork that I'm sure there is a way to, to streamline that and to use more modern techniques of communication and, and et cetera, but I think that's one of the great sort of drawbacks of of, of, of the environment just, like, dealing with paperwork is sometimes tremendous amount of time. 00:41:39.838 --> 00:41:47.458 And it's something that obviously you don't enjoy because you're, like, you're not a scientist so that you can forward email with PDF signatures. 00:41:48.429 --> 00:41:52.159 So I wish there was a way to, to kind of streamline that part. 00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:55.469 It would be a lot more efficient, a lot less time spent on our behalf. 00:41:56.469 --> 00:42:04.632 When you're thinking about what supported you the most in your career, because obviously, you know, once you become a PI, you're responsible for everything. 00:42:05.061 --> 00:42:18.561 You're dependent on, maybe some of the, administrative practices that may be a pain and, not very efficient, but also the culture of the institution, the way that a head of department relates to, you know, to the staff member. 00:42:18.862 --> 00:42:22.711 What's been the support that you've received from colleagues or. 00:42:22.867 --> 00:42:26.347 peers or mentors once you became a PI? 00:42:26.820 --> 00:42:35.090 at the University of Toronto Christina Amon was the Dean of Engineering for about 11 or 12 years. 00:42:35.139 --> 00:42:49.860 There was an extension to her term because of a huge construction project and I couldn't be more fortunate to be there at that time under Christina's leadership and I can only say. 00:42:50.860 --> 00:42:57.809 the best things about

her vision and her leadership and the way she supported my career, right? 00:42:57.809 --> 00:43:04.010 So if you, because you're going to talk to girls this podcast is aimed at women scientists. 00:43:04.099 --> 00:43:08.150 I think I was really fortunate to have. 00:43:08.449 --> 00:43:13.599 Two women support me in my career and development. 00:43:13.610 --> 00:43:16.619 One of them is Gordana and the other one Christina Amon. 00:43:17.139 --> 00:43:26.119 And, she was really outstanding in she knew really well everyone in the faculty and which is pretty remarkable because there are so many professors. 00:43:26.150 --> 00:43:47.159 And she was very instrumental in creating opportunities for me, I think for many other people as well in terms of not just nominating us for awards, but for me, for example, there was a call for time protection to protect your time from teaching so that you can do some bigger research initiatives. 00:43:47.159 --> 00:43:50.030 So I applied for this call that she, she set this up. 00:43:50.030 --> 00:43:51.320 I haven't seen it come. 00:43:51.750 --> 00:44:05.980 through again and I applied and I got it and I was able to start all of the organ on a chip effort during that time that I had time protection and so, that was really great. 00:44:06.030 --> 00:44:13.610 And she was also supportive of craft which is the organ on chip center really early, one of the first supporters. 00:44:14.239 --> 00:44:23.045 So together, I think being at U of T under in engineering under her leadership made a huge difference for my career. 00:44:24.045 --> 00:44:30.346 So what do you think is your role now that you are very eminent, successful professor? 00:44:30.356 --> 00:44:40.266 How do you kind of carry on that work within the role that you have so that, you know, women and others, are able to succeed in in research? 00:44:41.266 --> 00:44:41.606 Yeah. 00:44:42.076 --> 00:44:47.646 So I think maybe also the trainees would be the best people to say that. 00:44:48.465 --> 00:44:55.715 So so what I try to do is really give them an opportunity to publish well, right? 00:44:56.405 --> 00:44:59.635 So that's the main driver, right? 00:44:59.666 --> 00:45:04.985 That's what's going to get you the interview, either in industry or in academia, you have to publish well. 00:45:04.985 --> 00:45:12.896 And there are certain things about project management that the PI can really help with making sure that you're publishing well. 00:45:13.485 --> 00:45:27.766 And sometimes that means also I'm pushing you to do things right fast, because if it takes a long time, then it's just, The story may not be relevant anymore or it's just your training will be too long, right? 00:45:27.766 --> 00:45:32.385 People will look at it and they'll say, well, why did it take you seven years for PhD or 10 years? 00:45:32.385 --> 00:45:34.226 Or like, we just cannot have that. 00:45:34.985 --> 00:45:38.135 And and so unless there was COVID, right? 00:45:38.135 --> 00:45:44.456 I think there are people who were impacted by COVID, but in general, you're not supposed to have such a long timeline. 00:45:44.456 --> 00:45:49.295 So that means that I might be like pushing you to get stuff done. 00:45:49.295 --> 00:45:50.166 And also. 00:45:51.090 --> 00:45:59.311 The effective part is that I can also help with is in pairing people like to work together on different projects. 00:46:00.021 --> 00:46:04.550 And so what I usually also I would ask people to write a review paper. 00:46:05.166 --> 00:46:07.985 Because that also helps you polish your writing. 00:46:08.195 --> 00:46:08.465 It. 00:46:09.465 --> 00:46:14.085 You will have a reference, another reference on your, on your cv. 00:46:14.146 --> 00:46:21.175 And if you write a good review paper also it'll be cited so it helps with your citation record. 00:46:21.175 --> 00:46:26.036 So when you come work with me, I will not just ask you to write, like, work on a research paper. 00:46:26.036 --> 00:46:27.266 I will also make sure you're. 00:46:27.646 --> 00:46:29.056 work on a review paper. 00:46:29.666 --> 00:46:37.135 And when I was younger, right, they would review, like, my superiors would review me, and they would say, oh, you're writing too many review papers. 00:46:37.135 --> 00:46:38.065 I would say, so what? 00:46:38.856 --> 00:46:40.456 So what, what's the problem with that? 00:46:40.936 --> 00:46:50.976 Because really, I think it's the combination, good combination of reviews and research papers helps, because reviews are a good way to learn how to write. 00:46:51.775 --> 00:47:02.230 One of the things that you said that I like to pick on is this idea of pushing because there's been lots and lots of reports about, the mental health issues with PhD researchers and so on. 00:47:02.650 --> 00:47:13.802 And I was running a workshop last week with some researchers in Portugal and some new PIs and many of them say, well, with some of my PhD students, it's very hard because. 00:47:14.592 --> 00:47:21.242 I'm trying to motivate them, but, you know, many of them don't necessarily, want to do what I've suggested. 00:47:21.322 --> 00:47:24.632 And, you know, how much is too pushy? 00:47:24.632 --> 00:47:26.492 How much, do you need to push? 00:47:27.182 --> 00:47:41.043 And How do you balance that with, the, raised awareness that mental health issues have, but how do you yourself find a way of really challenging people, but in a way that doesn't feel too pushy. 00:47:41.083 --> 00:47:49.342 Well, obviously I'm not, I'm no expert on mental health and I think everything I say, you know, should be taken with a grain of salt. 00:47:49.827 --> 00:47:59.806 basically I, obviously over the years, right, had people with mental health issues in the lab with time and sometimes depending on most often it's. 00:48:00.646 --> 00:48:29.126 Things that are percolating, and a lot of them during COVID, a lot of them, actually most of it was during COVID, right, most of it, and

sometimes the best solution is really just to take a break, don't, take a break from your PhD or your master's, and we certainly had that happen, people would take a break and, you know, get better, and a lot of it is happening during COVID, where people experience isolation, etc. 00:48:29.402 --> 00:48:36.313 Also, when people come back, some of them, you know, some of them decided they're just not going to do science. 00:48:36.322 --> 00:48:40.083 Some of them came back and they're extremely, extremely productive. 00:48:40.523 --> 00:48:44.072 Extremely, more than anybody you can think of. 00:48:44.873 --> 00:48:52.072 So, you know, that tells you take a break, get, get a treatment and reassess your goals. 00:48:52.072 --> 00:48:53.762 Reassess why do you want to do this? 00:48:53.902 --> 00:48:58.152 And is this what's causing you the mental health and anxiety? 00:48:59.152 --> 00:49:10.108 Or is this Is it something else that in your life is is causing the, you know, the problems of how you're feeling? 00:49:11.108 --> 00:49:17.257 But the key, I think, is really to get professional help and assess accordingly. 00:49:18.257 --> 00:49:39.367 But in a way, from what you said, actually getting people to take a break and not necessarily at the point where people are really not in a good state, but in a way of promoting a research culture where people don't work 24 hours, seven days a week as a way of actually having the headspace to you know, to think and to have a more balanced life. 00:49:40.047 --> 00:49:40.237 Yeah. 00:49:40.237 --> 00:49:41.117 You take a break. 00:49:41.128 --> 00:49:50.367 You just take a break and get your treatment and then, you continue if needed when you come back to, to, to get treatment. 00:49:50.898 --> 00:50:01.538 And As I mentioned, like, examples like that, where people come back and they're extremely, extremely productive, a lot more than what you can imagine of of others, right? 00:50:01.947 --> 00:50:35.842 Sometimes also, you know, people go through phases and When, if they're faced with making a decision, for example, sometimes people have a hard time making a decision and that causes a lot of anxiety and as they're going through different career stages you know, a decision about a job or which way they could, they should, they should go, you get, you get a lot of anxiety sometimes and then they, you can really see their mental health is affected and they're very nervous around other people and triggering other people. 00:50:35.862 --> 00:50:38.782 So that's something you're trying to, to avoid. 00:50:38.822 --> 00:50:45.563 But sometimes if you understand where they're coming from and what is causing this behavior, that can really help. 00:50:46.592 --> 00:50:51.893 I like to ask you a final question about what gives you joy in research? 00:50:52.708 --> 00:50:54.278 Well, it's a nice paper. 00:50:54.358 --> 00:51:10.938 And like when I see I, to this day, you know, I published a lot of papers, but to this day when you see a paper published, not because it's on my like CV as a line, but you see this study, now it's all like perfect. 00:51:11.148 --> 00:51:16.579 It fell into place all of these years of work and we Finally get it. 00:51:16.628 --> 00:51:21.579 We know how it works, or there is a new device, new technology. 00:51:21.579 --> 00:51:29.239 And when you see this nice paper written, and the language is perfect and really nice, I actually get, I get very happy about that. 00:51:29.349 --> 00:51:30.989 So I don't know. 00:51:31.469 --> 00:51:32.798 That's how I can prioritize. 00:51:32.798 --> 00:51:35.438 Do I want to write the paper or do I want to do something else? 00:51:35.469 --> 00:51:40.648 I always pick the paper, even to the detriment of some other tasks that are really burning. 00:51:41.009 --> 00:51:42.759 like some administrative task. 00:51:43.199 --> 00:51:50.199 And that's, that's maybe a little bit of something that I, as an individual, have to figure out how to balance better. 00:51:50.773 --> 00:51:53.483 Well, you've got your priorities, priorities in order. 00:51:53.483 --> 00:51:53.614 And 00:51:53.679 --> 00:51:55.259 I know what's a priority. 00:51:55.298 --> 00:51:56.989 I would just write papers all the time. 00:51:57.039 --> 00:51:59.958 I would never forward any email with the signature to anywhere. 00:52:00.378 --> 00:52:01.407 Thank you very much. 00:52:01.847 --> 00:52:03.967 It's been really a pleasure talking to you. 00:52:03.978 --> 00:52:06.338 Really appreciate you giving us this time. 00:52:06.577 --> 00:52:07.077 Thank you. 00:52:07.143 --> 00:52:07.353 you. 00:52:07.432 --> 00:52:07.873 Thanks. 00:52:07.922 --> 00:52:08.393 Bye bye.