النص الكامل لحلقة 480 Thursday Refresh: The Conversations Leaders Avoid and the Cost Teams Pay with Liane Davey

00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:06.480 Full throttle, no lift. 00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:13.519 What I wonder is what did that leader see that most leaders miss in your view? 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:14.160 Yeah. 00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:19.040 So that's a chief technology officer of a Silicon Valley company, wonderful person. 00:05:19.439 --> 00:05:21.920 And they were just post-IPO. 00:05:22.319 --> 00:05:28.480 And what everyone was paying attention to was what were the gaps in their feature set for their product? 00:05:28.639 --> 00:05:30.079 What did they have to do to catch up? 00:05:30.319 --> 00:05:31.839 How far behind were they? 00:05:32.079 --> 00:05:36.000 They were really focused on how to do more. 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:40.319 And what he saw was that there was no more. 00:05:41.519 --> 00:05:44.000 Like it wasn't going to be possible. 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:55.120 And as a pilot, he understood that when you get behind the power curve and there's too much drag, you can be at full throttle and you can actually stall out and crash. 00:05:55.439 --> 00:06:09.360 What he understood was the only thing to do when you're in that position is to point the nose down, which sounds terrifying, and to actually pick up speed by reducing drag, and then you can recover. 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:14.319 He was the only person who understood that they needed to get focused. 00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:16.560 They needed to reduce the drama. 00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:21.920 They needed to calm things down so that they could then pick up speed. 00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:29.120 It was one of the most brilliant analogies I've ever had a client just use spontaneously in a session. 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:33.519 It's still with me all these years later because that's what it feels like. 00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:38.800 We are at full throttle and so surprised that we're losing altitude. 00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:41.439 It is a brilliant analogy. 00:06:41.519 --> 00:06:52.000 And it What I wonder though is a lot of executives say there's one thing to say do less and they recognize focus on less. 00:06:52.240 --> 00:07:06.000 One of the authors whose book I love, Lighty Klutz, he's a professor, multidisciplinary professor at the University of Virginia, wrote a book called Subtract and the power of subtraction. 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:06.480 Yeah. 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:12.639 In conceptual terms, people understand do less, focus. 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:16.720 But it's easier said than done. 00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:17.360 Yeah. 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:19.920 I think it's we pay attention to the wrong things. 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:23.360 So I talk about three things in the book that we can pay attention to. 00:07:23.519 --> 00:07:30.079 We can pay attention to activities, we can pay attention to outputs, and we can pay attention to outcomes. 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:35.519 Most of us, most leaders, most individuals, are paying attention to activities. 00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:38.079 How do I go to all

the meetings that are in my calendar? 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:39.759 How do I respond to all the emails? 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:43.040 How do I lift my head every time there's a Slack notification? 00:07:43.279 --> 00:07:47.120 And if you pay attention to activity, what you're going to get is busy people. 00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:51.279 I get in this habit myself and I see it with a lot of executives. 00:07:51.519 --> 00:08:01.680 We feel good when we are wanted and we are busy, and there is an inbox that's overflowing and we are constantly keeping up with it. 00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:12.879 So there is a level of satisfaction, I don't know why, that we get from actually deleting emails or going through all of those activities. 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:13.839 I get it. 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:18.720 So I wrote this book and I was stuck at O'Hare for six and a half hours last week. 00:08:18.879 --> 00:08:27.839 And I found myself sitting there, first of all, feeling overwhelmed at how much I have to do in this book launch kind of phase, refreshing my email, hoping for a new email. 00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:29.439 What are you hoping for? 00:08:29.600 --> 00:08:30.160 What are you doing? 00:08:30.399 --> 00:08:31.040 So I get it. 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:32.720 So that's where most of us are. 00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:35.039 We're in some dopaminergic loop. 00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:40.799 We are looking for input and activity and a chance to check off a box, all those things. 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:45.679 When we shift to paying attention to outputs, that's when we become productive. 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:49.679 And most leaders, when they hear that, get all excited. 00:08:49.919 --> 00:09:04.000 And that's when I know we're in trouble because productivity is a massive trap because we are pumping out stuff, reports and products and feature sets and banana Kit Kat formulations. 00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:06.080 The world didn't need banana Kit Kat. 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:18.240 So we're creating output, being productive, but the only thing we should be paying attention to is outcomes, because that's when we become effective. 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:26.000 And if we're producing all the outputs in the world, but they're not moving the needle on the outcomes that matter, that is wasted effort. 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:35.039 So that's the biggest problem is that we are in this very tight feedback loop of paying attention to activity, being rewarded for activity. 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:40.000 Biggest trap I see managers rewarding the heck out of people who are responsive. 00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:50.720 I promise you, if they are immediately responsive to you, it is because they are distracted from their core job, because they're putting your priorities ahead of theirs. 00:09:50.879 --> 00:09:55.679 And that will be one of your least productive employees that you are giving a gold star to. 00:09:56.000 --> 00:09:57.679 So it's a huge problem. 00:09:57.919 --> 00:10:06.799 So that to me is one of the things leaders are failing in their ability to define the single most important outcome people are supposed to be driving toward. 00:10:06.960 --> 00:10:08.559 They're not making that clear. 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:13.919 They also don't have effective ways of measuring whether the outputs are creating the outcome. 00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:22.960 And so, in the absence of good information about meaningful outcomes, we're just measuring people on how busy are you? 00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:26.000 Because that's what we're given gold stars for. 00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:35.120 So we're not going to cure the thought load problem until we get off of busy, get off of productive, and start paying attention to effective. 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:47.039 That is really hard to do, Leanne, understanding what the real outcomes are and focusing the team and the individuals in the team toward those outcomes. 00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:50.720 So you're saying do away with those productivity hacks. 00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:54.720 I'm okay with productivity if it's productivity in service of effectiveness. 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:59.039 So what I don't want is just people producing work slop. 00:10:59.279 --> 00:11:05.200 And whether it's you producing it or AI producing it, there's so much work slop getting produced. 00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:07.039 Reports that never go anywhere. 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:14.000 I told this story in an old book, but I had a friend, oh my God, I love this man, Jim Pierce, amazing, amazing guy. 00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:18.960 And he was the head of IT for the Canadian subsidiary of a big computer company. 00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:26.639 And he was spending, he and his team were spending hours and hours a month creating reports to send to the head office. 00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:36.399 And because he's a bit of a cheeky monkey, he he one day took every page of every report and plastered the boardroom with every page. 00:11:36.559 --> 00:11:44.320 And he said to the Canadian CEO, Do I have your permission to stop sending one report a month until somebody notices? 00:11:44.879 --> 00:11:47.120 And the Canadian CEO said yes. 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:50.720 And he went eight months with no one noticing. 00:11:50.960 --> 00:12:00.960 So, how much energy is going into production that clearly was not moving the needle on any outcome that mattered or any at all. 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:02.399 So that's what I'm worried about. 00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:07.759 I'm worried that a huge amount of our production is in service of production. 00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:13.360 It's just as opposed to the outcomes that we're actually here for. 00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:20.240 And in the book, I tell my own epic fail, which is I started in 2012 writing a weekly blog. 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:23.840 And I was so proud of myself for how consistent I was. 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:28.720 I would see other people's blogs, I'd click on, and the last one would be like four

years previously. 00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:30.559 I'm like, I'm so consistent. 00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:32.720 I never, I was so proud of myself. 00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:41.200 And at some point I realized that people were unsubscribing, that this was not what was a way to deliver these kinds of ideas. 00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:46.559 Was I actually helping people to achieve amazing things together, which is the outcome I'm after? 00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:51.360 And I was like, oh no, oh no, I have to take my own medicine. 00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:58.000 I'm proud of my output that is not moving the needle on the things that I care about. 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:06.639 So it, I know it's hard because I fall victim to it, but there's nothing better than writing a book to increase the accountability to change your behavior. 00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:09.600 It is a hard reality for all of us, Leanne. 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:20.720 And I appreciate you sharing that story with respect to you having to look at your own output and seeing if that's really moving the needle or not. 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:23.600 Now, you talk about thought load. 00:13:23.759 --> 00:13:24.000 Yeah. 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:29.600 What is thought load and how do you differentiate between workload and thought load? 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:35.279 Yeah, I just look at work as the actual outputs that lead to the outcomes of the role. 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:37.360 Is it actually your work? 00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:43.519 To me, most people I talk to would be thrilled to do the work. 00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:49.120 They're like, it's interesting, it's challenging, it's good, but my work is five hours a week. 00:13:49.279 --> 00:13:51.440 Or 10 hours a week if you're lucky. 00:13:51.759 --> 00:14:02.639 Then I'm in 20 hours of meetings, doing 11 hours of email, five hours of responding to Slack channel, two hours Sally perching her right butt cheek on my desk complaining to me about everything, right? 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:10.879 It's the two hours I spent this week fielding calls from my kids in the middle of the day about some project they were working on, that whatever, right? 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:30.320 So thought load is the invisible tax on our performance and our presence that comes from a combination of three things: the cognitive demands we're under, the emotional burdens we're being triggered by, and the depleted energy reserves that we're trying to carry the load with. 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:39.279 So, workload to me is how much effort and labor needs to go into producing the outputs of your job. 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:43.120 Thought load is all that and everything else. 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:48.320 And the problem is that the neuroscience of thought load is really scary. 00:14:48.399 --> 00:15:00.000 I call the three things the treacherous triad because, for example, as your energy goes down, one of the first things to go is your ability to calibrate what you should pay attention to and what you shouldn't. 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:04.399 So all of a sudden the cognitive demands go up because you're paying attention to things that don't matter. 00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:08.879 One of the next things to go is your ability to figure out is that really a threat? 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:10.879 Is the boss really mad at me? 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:14.240 Or and you're triggered much, much more easily. 00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:18.960 So as one becomes a problem, it affects the other two. 00:15:19.039 --> 00:15:22.480 And we just go in this sort of death spiral of thought load. 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:34.480 And thought load, as your thought load gets heavier, your productivity goes down, your creativity goes down, your presence goes down, you just go inside to try and cope. 00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:37.519 You're less accessible to your teammates. 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:39.759 It affects trust and collaboration. 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:42.559 You have nothing left for your family at the dinner table. 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:44.159 Your head is still at work. 00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:47.440 So thought load is incredibly costly. 00:15:47.679 --> 00:15:53.519 If we can lower our thought load, it's amazing how much workload we can produce. 00:15:53.679 --> 00:16:03.360 But unfortunately, most of us are just riding with such a high thought load that there's no space for any of the things that help us contribute effectively. 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:10.399 For executives listening, how can they reduce the burden of that thought load? 00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:12.159 So let's take the three in order, right? 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:14.399 So we've talked a lot about the cognitive demands. 00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:22.159 The most important thing an executive can do to reduce cognitive demands is focus on a priority outcome. 00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:28.159 And when I say priority, the word priority comes from the Latin that means first. 00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:37.039 And we had the word priority in the English language for 400 years without it being pluralized because you can't have more than one first. 00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:48.159 And at some point, probably some consultant somewhere decided we could have priorities and totally shifted the meaning to a priority is something important, not something first. 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:51.440 We have got to claim back our word priority. 00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:53.200 So you can't have more than one priority. 00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:55.440 You can have priority one, two, and three, sure. 00:16:55.679 --> 00:17:00.320 But they have to be in order because it means what comes first. 00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:04.640 So first, outcome-oriented, and second, in order. 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:08.160 That's the biggest thing that you can do as a leader. 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:13.839 And helping people reconcile with, okay, what if these two things are in tension with one another? 00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:14.799 What do I do? 00:17:15.039 -->

00:17:26.160 How do I make sure that this cascades down appropriately through the layers of the organization, not just the CEO being at the top and then hoping it cascades, but making sure it cascades. 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:27.440 So that's number one. 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:30.960 Number two, emotions are not optional. 00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:38.160 And we need more leaders to understand that emotions are part of the human operating system. 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:47.359 And the more we try to deny that or make people believe that emotions are unprofessional or unproductive, they're not negotiable. 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:49.680 So I don't know why we're having this fight. 00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:58.640 What we want is to be able to help people process emotions efficiently, because emotions are full of data. 00:17:58.960 --> 00:18:09.119 But if we don't interrupt and work with the emotion before it turns into feelings and stories and narratives, feelings are full of drama. 00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:10.720 So that's the second thing. 00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:11.920 We gotta learn. 00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:30.720 And I just saw the most phenomenal study of Navy SEAL type people in the Australian military who, having done a little bit of this emotional regulation training, understanding how to process emotions, they had incredibly different performance on all sorts of critical outcome tasks. 00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:37.200 So emotions and being able to deal with your emotions is not for airy fairy, wimpy liberal snowflakes. 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:39.440 It's for badass Navy SEAL. 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:46.559 So we need to get better at processing emotions, taking out the data before they turn into drama. 00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:47.359 That's number two. 00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:56.559 And number three, we need to understand that humans have renewable sources of energy if we allow them to renew them. 00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:03.279 We can get energy from what I talk about in the book as waterfalls of energy, working in flow, working on something really meaningful. 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:07.599 And we can get energy from a deep well that we have to dig for. 00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:13.119 But we need to think about energy in high performance. 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:15.759 So not continually sprinting marathons. 00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:20.799 And when I saw all the stuff out of the AI company saying, for the next six months, we're in the race of our lives. 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:22.480 You have to work 996. 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:30.960 So nine to nine, six days a week for the next, no, you're gonna get bugs in the code, you're gonna get people wigging out. 00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:33.920 It's not gonna be good for your business or the humans. 00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:41.200 So the third thing is we need leaders to understand energy is a renewable resource, but not if you try and sprint a marathon. 00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:43.440 So, how do we have sprint and rest? 00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:44.880 How do we have reflection? 00:19:45.119 --> 00:20:01.839 So, those three things, if I could get leaders to focus on outcomes, help people process emotions, and treat energy more as a renewable resource, I would be thrilled and people's businesses would be much more successful. 00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:04.079 Those three are powerful. 00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:25.279 And I hope everyone listens and re-listens to that clip right there, Leanne, because it will make a significant difference to how we are able to take advantage of the human potential in our organizations, which I do believe will become a lot more critical. 00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:38.079 And to your point on uh processing emotions, actually, one of my repeat guests is Rich DeVinny, uh former Navy SEAL commander, 20 plus years. 00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:58.720 Yeah, and he also talks about how Navy SEALs train on that processing of the emotion and recognizing it because, in order to be able to have high performance, you do need to be able to first understand and then process those emotions. 00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:05.279 So, as you're saying, this is human and the highest performing humans have to do it. 00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:10.720 It's not just something that a particular set of people pay attention to. 00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:21.759 But interestingly enough, Leanne, I find in many of our organizations, we've tried to divorce people from dealing with emotions, processing emotions. 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:25.839 So many of the managers and executives don't know how to deal with it. 00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:33.839 The other funny thing, so I was giving the keynote about this to a group of engineers recently, and I was talking about the emotional piece. 00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:36.880 And as I'm talking about it, I can just see some of them rolling their eyes. 00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:38.319 And every said, You're right. 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:42.319 You're probably thinking that there's there are gender differences here. 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:44.559 And I said, You're absolutely right. 00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:48.079 The studies show men are more emotional at work than women. 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:54.720 Men have more emotional episodes each day, but those emotions are more anger and frustration and impatience. 00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:59.759 And somehow they choose not to label those things as emotions, but they're equally as hijacking. 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:03.119 As sadness or any other emotion. 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:09.599 So we just we have no emotional literacy at the top of house in organizations right now. 00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:11.599 And we're really going to pay for it. 00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:18.000 And we also have folks who the bro culture pretending that they're like stoics. 00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:24.799 And obviously they've never read about stoicism because stoicism says you must process the emotion first. 00:22:24.880 --> 00:22:28.400 And so there's just so

much crap out there. 00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:31.599 So Rich is a wonderful guy and he gets it. 00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:33.759 The same would be true with Olympic athletes. 00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:42.160 If you want the highest performance, you are all over processing your emotions, not repressing them, not pretending they're not there. 00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:44.799 So let's make some progress on that in the workplace. 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:45.599 Absolutely. 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:48.079 But this is the other thing you talk about as well. 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:59.359 You describe emotional contagion and the impact that the leader's emotional tone has on the rest of the team and organization. 00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:00.079 Yeah. 00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:00.480 Yeah. 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:06.559 So emotional contagion is the unconscious spread of an emotion from one person to another. 00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:09.759 We're still trying to understand the neuroscience of it. 00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:17.200 They believe it's a mechanism of our mirror neurons that you feel a certain way, your body reflects how you feel. 00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:23.359 So if you're feeling demoralized, your pupils may expand, your brow furrows, your shoulders slump. 00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:29.920 And my mirror neurons pick that up and I mirror you because we're very social creatures and most of us mirror. 00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:32.079 So then all of a sudden, I'm slump. 00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:36.319 And then my brain goes, oh, your shoulders are slumped and your brow is furrowed. 00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:38.160 You must be sad and demoralized. 00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:44.720 So we believe that's the mechanism by which an emotion spreads around a team, but we don't even know it's happening. 00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:49.359 But you've all been in a room where you felt the vibe just suddenly go, or go the other way. 00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:50.559 It can go both ways. 00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:56.880 So for a leader, becoming very emotionally literate about what's going on in the room. 00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:00.400 And what we want to differentiate here is a difference between sympathy. 00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:05.200 So we're back to Latin again, feeling with, versus empathy, feeling for. 00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:08.079 So we do not want sympathy in our team. 00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:10.960 We don't want everybody to go to the same bad place. 00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:19.279 We want to interrupt that with some great questions, with curiosity, with getting it into more of the frontal lobe, the more cognitive. 00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:20.400 Oh, what's going on? 00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:21.839 How do you see this playing out? 00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:22.960 What are you imagining? 00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:28.799 And that way people in the room can feel empathy for the person without feeling sympathy. 00:24:28.880 --> 00:24:31.839 Because if we all go down together, nobody's helping. 00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:36.160

So we've got skills to build in this whole emotional domain. 00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:38.960 And we are not going to fix thought load. 00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:44.880 And every interview I have, it's amazing how quickly people will start just talking about cognitive load. 00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:50.799 And they'll say it's not called cognitive load because cognitive load is only one piece of the puzzle. 00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:57.359 If we do not equally understand that you remember the was it Porter culture each strategy for breakfast? 00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:00.319 Well, it's attributed to Peter Drucker. 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:01.359 Oh, Drucker, Drucker. 00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:01.519 Okay. 00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:02.799 He never said that. 00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:03.680 But anyway, go ahead. 00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:04.880 But that line, right? 00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:11.839 I would say emotional load eats cognitive load every time because that's the way our brain is structured. 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:17.599 If something triggers your threat response or a fear response, the cognitive load's irrelevant. 00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:20.960 Your brain is built to focus everything on that. 00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:25.039 So that's what really worries me, is and that's why I had to write the book. 00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:38.559 There's a lot of great stuff out there from productivity-focused people, but they do not factor in the fact that if we do not address this emotional piece of the puzzle, it will eat the rest for breakfast. 00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:40.720 It's interesting, Leanne. 00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:48.480 Even as you're talking about this, I'm reflecting on the fact that there is a lot of focus on cognitive load. 00:25:48.799 --> 00:26:02.960 But the CEOs or executives I deal with when the emotional load is higher, it limits the bandwidth for the cognition or the work drastically. 00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:05.839 It impacts everything they do. 00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:08.559 But as you said, we don't pay much attention to it. 00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:17.200 It's as if people walk into the organization, leave their emotional selves out on the curve. 00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:23.759 You'd only need to be in a meeting for 10 minutes before you realize that's absolute crap. 00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:25.920 People are taking everything as well. 00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:28.559 Would that recommendation reduce the size of my team? 00:26:28.640 --> 00:26:29.920 Would that take away my power? 00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:32.240 Is that a new way of doing it that I'm not as good at? 00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:33.279 What good at? 00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:36.400 Or like all of that is in the room. 00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:43.119 Just the emotions associated with, did she just like completely give me the side eye there? 00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:46.640 Was that sarcastic comment about my presentation? 00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:47.920 Like, is that true? 00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:49.039 Are they joking? 00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:50.559 All of that is going on. 00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:56.559 So one of the things I talk about in the book that I just find fascinating is the concept of social pain. 00:26:57.119 --> 00:27:05.200 So humans evolved and got to where we are on the food chain, not because we are run faster, have sharper teeth, or are better camouflage. 00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:08.640 We got where we got to because we cooperated more effectively. 00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:15.839 And so our whole threat system is very tied to are we in or are we out? 00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:25.440 It's why survivor has reached 50 seasons, because in the tribe or out of the tribe is the most fundamental human thing there is. 00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:41.119 So what we now understand is if we get information from our environment that we aren't worthy, we don't belong, we're not in, that our brain processes that in exactly the same way as it processes physical pain. 00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:42.880 My husband's a neuroscientist. 00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:52.480 If you showed him an fMRI of someone who'd just been criticized by their teammate or who had just been hit with a hammer, he wouldn't be able to tell the difference. 00:27:52.799 --> 00:28:03.359 One of my favorite studies recently, one of my colleagues from graduate school did some research trying to really help people understand that this is pain in the same pain mechanisms as other pain. 00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:06.720 And what he showed is we can reduce social pain with Tylenol. 00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:10.640 Are you thinking about which meeting next week you might want to take a couple Tylenol before? 00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:25.839 But once we understand that as team dynamics play out, as we get information from our environment that our idea wasn't good or people didn't like it or whatever else, that is painful to us. 00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:29.359 And we will go out of our way to avoid that kind of pain. 00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:31.279 It's why we get into conflict debt. 00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:32.319 It's why we, right? 00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:34.000 All sorts of things stem from that. 00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:55.839 So if we don't understand the emotional dynamics of the team that we're leading, if we don't understand emotions being different from feelings, if we don't understand how emotional contagion, sympathy, and empathy work, if we don't understand the basic mechanism of social pain, then we have no hope of providing the leadership our teams need. 00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:02.079 And just not enough people are incorporating this into how they think about leadership. 00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:04.000 Such a powerful point. 00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:19.519 And what beautiful examples with respect to the impact, even as you were mentioning, your husband looking at the MRIs wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the physical versus the emotional pains impact. 00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:37.039 Therefore, Leanne, as leaders of

teams and organizations, which is the vast majority of my listeners, part of this is how we manage the madness for ourselves, which is really important. 00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:39.839 The example we set for others is critical. 00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:47.359 You also mentioned this in the book, where you can't help others if you don't first address the issue for yourself. 00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:59.440 But that said, you right now shared a lot of great thoughts with respect to how this impacts people's emotions, how it impacts how people view themselves. 00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:00.000 Yeah. 00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:01.440 So let's do three points, right? 00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:03.680 Number one, get on your own game first. 00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:05.680 Tie to your own house first. 00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:15.119 Because if you are in overwhelm, if your thought load is very high, you will struggle to add the value that you need to as a leader. 00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:19.839 That's why the whole first half of the book is just helping you get your own thought load under control. 00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:21.119 So that's first. 00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:32.799 Second, the second half of the book is about the proactive things you can do to support your team in improving their focus, processing their emotions, and renewing their energy. 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:39.440 One example, I give a tool on the toolkit for the book to identify what I call unseen work. 00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:45.920 So managers tend to think they know what's taking up people's thought load, and they really don't, right? 00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:47.440 There's many more things. 00:30:47.680 --> 00:31:02.079 So this is an exercise you can do with folks to help expose things that are coming at them from maybe one of your peers, coming at them from the shared services in the organization, even things that are coming at them from their home life or other things they're paying attention to. 00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:13.680 Because if we don't have a role in helping them triage and prioritize and figure out what they need to put first and what they can put off, then we aren't helping them. 00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:18.720 So there's a whole bunch of tools to help a leader to help their team proactively. 00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:24.799 And then the third thing is be very aware for the signs, the second line of defense, right? 00:31:24.880 --> 00:31:26.319 The signs it's not working. 00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:33.119 Are people going back to default answers, going back to things that that's what we did last time? 00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:39.359 If you start to see people going back to old answers, it's a good sign their thought loads probably getting too high. 00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:45.920 Watch out for them having too little productive conflict because conflict takes a lot of energy. 00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:48.000 It requires heavy thought load. 00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:51.039 And so when our thought loads are too full, we'll pull back. 00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:53.599 We're like, I can't, I don't have the energy for it now. 00:31:53.759 --> 00:31:56.240 So watch for healthy conflict going down. 00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:00.079 Watch for signs that people are becoming less present. 00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:02.319 So are they on their phones in meetings? 00:32:02.480 --> 00:32:05.519 Are they just like staring out the window at some point? 00:32:05.680 --> 00:32:11.440 Are they contributing less on other people's topics and only contributing when they're on the hot seat? 00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:13.119 Get your own house in order. 00:32:13.359 --> 00:32:19.680 Do the proactive things to help your team like understand and triage their work and process their emotions. 00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:30.960 And then watch, be very aware for the signs that the thought load is getting too high and you need to stop the presses and do something to move a bunch of thought load off. 00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:33.279 That's how I would think about the three categories. 00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:37.680 I love what you mentioned, Leanne, and wanted to underline a couple of things. 00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:59.119 First of all, with respect to unseen work, I think in addition to the managers being able to support their people in prioritizing some of the work, sometimes just recognizing the unseen work and understanding that unseen work by itself is meaningful to the person. 00:32:59.359 --> 00:33:03.839 So just listening to try to understand the unseen work. 00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:04.319 Yeah. 00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:14.160 For example, I think I give an example in the book of if you know that the person has to go spreadsheet spelunking the last Thursday of every month on some big report. 00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:20.000 And unfortunately, it can't be stopped, it can't be delayed, it can't even really be shrunk. 00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:38.559 Like you've done what you can, then that last Thursday of the month, like you buy a coffee or donuts and you bring them to the desk, or you collect up a funny meme during the month at some point, and you always send it on my it's your like terrible report Thursday, meme of the day, or right? 00:33:38.720 --> 00:33:51.119 Those little things that say, I know, I see, I value, yeah, they help thought load because then we get that positive emotional uplift as opposed to going the other direction. 00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:52.640 So I completely agree with you. 00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:54.799 It's not always about taking work off. 00:33:55.200 --> 00:33:57.279 Sometimes it's about taking the thought load off. 00:33:57.359 --> 00:34:00.079 Okay, at least I know I'm getting my gold star for this report. 00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:16.400 The other thing I love that you mentioned is recognizing when the team, organization, or individual is not engaging in healthy conflict, in that sometimes managers or executives think it's good that there is no conflict. 00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:24.719 But

as you mentioned, for a whole host of reasons, it is not, including the fact that people disengage. 00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:30.960 And when they disengage, that's when they reduce in engaging in healthy conflict. 00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:32.000 Absolutely. 00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:36.559 So in my previous book, The Good Fight, that it's all about that, how to use conflict as a force for good. 00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:39.679 And we can think about two different forms of conflict. 00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:42.000 The healthy form feels like tension. 00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:45.760 They're putting tension on ideas, and the unhealthy form feels like friction. 00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:52.639 What you'll find as thought load gets high, tension goes down, friction goes up because you're impatient, you're emotionally triggered. 00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:58.159 So the friction is happening, but the good, productive tension is not. 00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:02.000 So that's another great indicator that, oh, we're in trouble. 00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:08.159 Now, Leanne, at this point, we are awash in everything, AI. 00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:10.559 It has impacted already. 00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:15.840 Knowledge work, content production, you name it, it's impacted. 00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:17.760 I think it will impact a lot more. 00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:20.239 So it's increasing speed and volume. 00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:29.840 I would love to know your thoughts on its impact on thought load and how we can view it and manage it from that perspective. 00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:35.840 Of course, agentic AI has really come on strong since I wrote the book, right? 00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:38.559 And the book isn't even dry off the presses yet. 00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:40.000 And this is so new. 00:35:40.320 --> 00:35:49.039 But I am so glad that I have introduced this differentiation between workload and thought load because it is just in time. 00:35:49.280 --> 00:36:00.079 Because what's happening with agentic AI is it might be great for taking on some of your workload, but at a massive cost to your thought load. 00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:06.239 So let's imagine you have five agents that you send off doing awesome things for you. 00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:09.119 Each of them is coming back with notifications. 00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:13.039 You are having to validate the work, update the prompts. 00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:17.519 And so you're getting that from it, it's not like being in a batting cage. 00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:24.400 It's like being in five batting cages at once that the speed is turned up to 120 mile an hour fastball. 00:36:24.639 --> 00:36:26.400 So that's all coming at you. 00:36:26.559 --> 00:36:40.000 We heard an admission from Amazon that a bunch of stuff that got vibe coded was what was responsible for taking the system down because obviously somebody was getting the fastballs and didn't do the validation that was necessary. 00:36:40.159 --> 00:36:49.760 So now think of the cognitive

demands, but think of the emotional burden of what's in here, what's gonna go wrong, what's gonna blow up in my face. 00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:56.079 And we know that on the energy side of the equation, we're already getting brain fry, we're already getting burnout. 00:36:56.239 --> 00:36:57.840 I'm a fan of AI. 00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:06.639 I think it's gonna do some really exciting things, but we need to be able to talk about not just workload in the AI conversation. 00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:08.719 We need to think about thought load. 00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:15.599 And we have to think about what is a reasonable amount of work that you can manage your agents doing. 00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:22.480 Then one other thing that I'm seeing early days, and this is in the HBR study that got published. 00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:25.760 The other thing that's happening is scope creep in people's roles. 00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:31.599 Now that I have this great agent, I can be like, I've never been too impressed with how Missy's doing her job. 00:37:31.760 --> 00:37:40.719 Well, let me just ask Claude how Claude would do Missy's job better, and it's gonna produce a 70-page report that I'm gonna send to Missy. 00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:51.920 Now, Missy gets a 70-page report that might have some great insights, probably has some work slop, maybe some hallucinations, some poorly calculated numbers about the potential ROI. 00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:54.639 She has to add that to her cognitive demands. 00:37:54.880 --> 00:37:58.719 Now, think about the emotional burdens of are you saying I'm not doing my job? 00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:00.480 And what are you saying about me? 00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:03.119 And oh, maybe you could just do your own job. 00:38:03.440 --> 00:38:10.400 We are not ready for the impact of that AI scope creep on our team dynamics. 00:38:10.639 --> 00:38:15.599 And I promise you that early days, the examples I have seen, it is not pretty. 00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:17.280 It is not pretty at all. 00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:18.639 So, a couple of things. 00:38:18.719 --> 00:38:32.000 I couldn't be more excited of offering the world this thought load concept as a way to manage your AI, not just your AI workload, but your AI thought load in a way that's manageable. 00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:41.679 So I hope it helps and contributes to the right conversation to use AI to help us be more effective as opposed to contributing to greater burnout. 00:38:42.079 --> 00:38:42.719 Absolutely. 00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:51.280 And I love the analogy you use with respect to being in a batting cage and balls coming at you at all speeds from all different directions. 00:38:51.599 --> 00:38:54.639 AI is doing that to a certain extent. 00:38:54.800 --> 00:38:59.679 However, the responsibility still stays with the human. 00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:10.800 Therefore, the outcomes become more important, how you focus and keep the right priority as your priority becomes more important. 00:39:11.199 --> 00:39:20.880 So, what you mentioned becomes even more important in managing the thought load in this age of AI. 00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:36.960 I'm also very hopeful with respect to what it can do for us if we manage the human side of it, which is ourselves and our teams, much more effectively than we have up to this point. 00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:46.960 So, Leanne, for the audience to both find the book and also follow your writing and your work, where would you send them to? 00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:50.320 The easiest place is just to go to thoughtload.com. 00:39:50.480 --> 00:39:53.360 And I would love if they connected with me on LinkedIn. 00:39:53.519 --> 00:39:56.480 Those are a couple of great places to find me. 00:39:56.800 --> 00:40:09.920 What a joy it's been, Leanne, learning more from you and your insights on Thoughtload, manage the madness, and free your team to do great work. 00:40:10.079 --> 00:40:13.440 Thank you so much for joining me in this conversation, Lian Davy. 00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:14.719 Thank you so much, Mahan. 00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:16.480 I really enjoyed it. 00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:22.159 You have been listening to Partnering Leadership with your host, Mahan Tavakoli. 00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:38.239 If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and review of the podcast on your favorite podcasting app and forward the conversation to a friend or colleague so you can help more people discover their purpose, grow professionally with meaning, and have a greater impact. 00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:44.639 For additional leadership insights and bonus content, visit us at partneringleadership.com.