النص الكامل لحلقة 477 Why Your Track Record Isn’t Enough: How Senior Executives Build Career Optionality with Kelly O. Kay

something and then starting. 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:18.399 And it's the entire process. 00:05:18.560 --> 00:05:43.279 So that process is something that can be navigated throughout your career because much of it is about developing relationships, paying it forward when you don't need something, so that when you do get to that moment that you want to change jobs and you're looking at a career transition, it doesn't sound and feel transactional and doesn't sound and feel foreign. 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:47.759 What brilliant and important points, Kelly, I wanted to highlight a couple of things. 00:05:47.920 --> 00:05:54.720 First of all, you do outline a complete process, which is why it's important for people to read the book. 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:59.120 I will touch on a few of those, obviously, in a 40-ish minute conversation. 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:09.519 And the fact that in many instances, most of it is work that needs to be done on a consistent basis. 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:32.879 So there was some data from LinkedIn that made me start paying attention to when people start becoming more active and posting, in that LinkedIn, with pretty high accuracy, can tell when people want to look for a new job, the number of times they visit, the places they go, so on and so forth. 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:36.800 And I've tried to pay attention to some of the executives I know. 00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:44.720 It's interesting where people are silent for a year or two years, you don't see them, then all of a sudden they're active on LinkedIn. 00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:49.199 They start posting or they start commenting or engaging. 00:06:49.519 --> 00:06:59.519 Part of the point you're making as well with respect to careers is that this is something that needs to be nurtured on an ongoing basis. 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:03.600 It is not the moment you decide it's time for a move. 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:04.399 That's right. 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:13.199 I think there's an assumption that most leaders have that this career, whoever this career is for, is being managed by somebody else. 00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:16.000 Somebody else in the company is looking out for me. 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:19.120 Maybe somebody else in my network is looking out for me. 00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:21.199 And the reality is it's just not true. 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:24.160 The person who should be looking out for you is you. 00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:31.439 And the things that you should be doing, really, I as the book is we chatted about just briefly prior to the recording. 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:36.480 The book was written for leaders at the peak of their career. 00:07:36.560 --> 00:07:38.000 That's what the book was written for. 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:52.800 However, I think it's mine and Jeff and Heydrich's hope that your entire audience, whether you're earlier in your career, mid-stage in your career, or at the senior point of your career, there's lessons for everybody in this book. 00:07:52.959 --> 00:08:01.600 I think it's just a timeless sort of practical guide that you can pick up and read a single step. 00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:04.720 You don't need to read it step one to step seven. 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:07.279 You can start at step five and go to step two. 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:11.759 It's just the way we've written it to try and organize it so there's value for everybody. 00:08:12.079 --> 00:08:20.879 Now you use Jerry Elliott as an accomplished tech executive, corporate director, including currently at Whirlpool. 00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:27.199 What does her story reveal about this trajectory, this process? 00:08:27.680 --> 00:08:32.000 Her quote was, I thought, one of the quotes that stood out for me. 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:35.360 We had some incredible contributors to the book. 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:40.159 I think there's 20 total executives that Jeff and I interviewed all over the world. 00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:47.279 One of the comments that Jerry made early on, and I believe it's in step one, is there's three chapters to a career. 00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:50.799 The first third is really what you have to do. 00:08:51.039 --> 00:08:54.000 The second third is what you need to do. 00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:57.200 And the final third is whatever the hell you want to do. 00:08:57.440 --> 00:09:07.360 And I just thought her framing of that, while it may be a little bit different for different people, in general, that's a really good frame for the book. 00:09:07.679 --> 00:09:14.159 Now, optionality for a lot of executives becomes important in their minds. 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:20.480 What capabilities do you think, Kelly, create the greatest optionality? 00:09:20.799 --> 00:09:22.240 Yeah, it's a really good point. 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:37.679 And it's one of the key messages of the book, Mahan, where most executives, and they'll enter a process like this by getting a phone call from somebody like Jeff or myself or our colleagues, whether it's hijricker in the industry. 00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:44.000 And usually they think of the question, Mahan, here's an opportunity we'd like to chat with you about. 00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:49.440 And then Mahan says, I'll say 80% of the time, but it's probably closer to 95%. 00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:54.080 I don't like the company, I don't like the job, and I don't want to waste people's time. 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:56.960 That's the starting point of this whole process. 00:09:57.200 --> 00:10:06.159 And the reality, optionality comes when you have a bit broader, more strategic lens for the intentional decision making. 00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:19.120 For example, instead of thinking of it through that prism, those three sort of filters, how about think about it from the point of view of is there somebody on the board that would be fascinating and interesting to meet? 00:10:19.279 --> 00:10:22.559 Is the CEO fascinating and interesting to meet? 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:25.440 Is the company in a

space that I can learn from? 00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:30.559 Are the investors quality investors that I don't know that I could meet in this process? 00:10:30.799 --> 00:10:38.320 All of that creates that's intentional strategic thinking, but it creates optionality when you take the meeting. 00:10:38.399 --> 00:10:53.919 It's one of the things, having done this for as long as Jeff and I have done this, oftentimes, you get a leader to just say yes because maybe it's a role they've never done, and they're interested to learn the fluency of how to speak at that altitude. 00:10:54.159 --> 00:10:59.200 But you take the meeting, and next thing there is much more there in terms of attractiveness. 00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:12.240 And now you've just, whether you go forward or not, or whether it's offered or not, you've created, you've expanded your network, you've learned a lot more, and it's just all about creating optionality throughout your career. 00:11:12.639 --> 00:11:31.519 So does this optionality, Kelly, start with Kelly or Jeff or someone else following up with the executives, or can they create some level of that optionality ahead of time? 00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:37.600 They can create the optionality ahead of time by building the network and building the brand. 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:40.240 At the end of the day, so I'll give an example. 00:11:40.559 --> 00:11:46.480 Jeff and I were doing a public company, a very public branded CEO search. 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:57.360 And during the course of that search, a name came up to the subcommittee of the board that was leading that of the non-gov committee, and someone brought the name up. 00:11:57.679 --> 00:12:06.639 And someone on the committee said, I would never think of that person because 20 years ago, that person left a very bad impression. 00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:09.759 So that individual will never know. 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:12.159 His name came up, was considered. 00:12:12.320 --> 00:12:17.120 It's just happened behind his back or when he wasn't in the room. 00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:27.759 But because of that relate, that reputation that executive developed earlier in his career prevented him, whether he would want it or not, it's not even the point. 00:12:27.840 --> 00:12:29.519 He didn't get the optionality. 00:12:29.840 --> 00:12:48.879 So my comment is you create optionality before Jeff and Kelly and colleagues call you by building your network, by being having a brand that stands for something, that you're reputable, that people enjoy working with you, that you are conceived as an A player. 00:12:49.039 --> 00:12:51.759 Those are all things that can be done before Jeff, I'm going to call you. 00:12:52.080 --> 00:13:03.039 It's interesting, Kelly, how many executives mentor others, young people in the organization, and tell them good work is not enough. 00:13:03.279 --> 00:13:10.480 However, when I see those executives and I work with them, they assume their good work by itself is enough. 00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:23.440 You could imagine how many requests Jeff and I and our colleagues get from executives that are at that point where they want to make a transition and they don't know what to do. 00:13:23.519 --> 00:13:34.960 And they just think to your exact point, they just think, hey, listen, I had this role at this company, I was successful, the company was successful, and I should be competitive for these other roles. 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:38.159 And the reality is that's really why we wrote the book. 00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:45.200 We wrote the book because what we found is that we were having to give advice to leaders on a one-off basis. 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:57.039 And at the end of the day, if you're for giving advice like what's in the book, to leaders essentially at the peak of their career, what does that mean for everybody else? 00:13:57.360 --> 00:14:05.360 And if you don't have access to Jeff, myself, our colleagues to get that one-on-one advice, this is exactly why we wrote the book. 00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:30.799 So, yes, your achievement in your job today matters, but when you go start talking to people, the whole trick and the whole purpose is to repurpose what the skills, capabilities, outcomes, impact that you had in relation to the role in the company and the situation they're looking to fill that leadership hire to do. 00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:41.039 Because trying to just explain, here's what I did at this company, as if I'm just going to lift it up and implant it in this new company, that just doesn't work. 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:43.200 It's gone and every situation is different. 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:54.879 And the reality is those leaders that you talked about saying what I just did should sell me, if you will, or create me as a competitive candidate, it's not enough. 00:14:55.039 --> 00:14:58.960 You need to really do a lot more than just show up with your past success. 00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:01.759 So that's what the candidates need to do. 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:10.639 And in order to try to understand your perspective as you're looking at the candidates and the organization is looking at the fit as well, Kelly. 00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:16.320 I wonder what does fit actually mean at senior levels of organizations? 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:23.679 How do you determine and how should they determine, the candidates, whether this is a good fit? 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:30.639 I think from the point of view of the firm, the recruiting firm, we'll spend a lot of time with leaders. 00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:48.080 Most of the leaders that Jeff, myself, and our colleagues know, especially in North America, where there's so much demand for leadership talent, most colleagues are very specialized in a sector, in a function, in a geography, in a stage of growth. 00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:56.799 And so the point is, it's most colleagues like Jeff and myself have a network of leaders that we've known for years. 00:15:57.039 -->

00:16:00.080 It's not like we're just getting acquainted with people. 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:10.320 So we've seen people perform and gotten a long history of experience watching them in roles, watching them transition to other roles. 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:22.159 It's actually the exception when you get to this altitude of leader that Jeff or I or our colleagues have never met you and just discover you for the first time. 00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:24.799 People aren't discovered very often. 00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:31.519 If you've been in a company that has performed really well at a senior level, everybody knows who you are. 00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:38.639 And everybody has access to a perspective from their relationships, from public media, et cetera. 00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:51.679 So it's a part of our process just to make sure that we know who these leaders are, assess them against the criteria that we're asked to go find and measure and rate. 00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:57.679 But to your question, it's also the company's perspective to put them through a process regarding fit. 00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:03.120 And usually what it means is they'll get interviewed by quite a few people. 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:13.039 It's these are as these executive hires are complex, they're competitive, they're grueling in a lot of ways, especially for CEO hires. 00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:18.640 You're meeting people one-on-one, you're meeting people in groups, you're presenting case studies, you're presenting to the board. 00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:21.759 There's a lot of steps in a process. 00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:25.839 And so fit is established really by is this a person? 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:33.359 Typically, the feedback we get, companies will say, is this a person that can they can recruit talent? 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:34.640 People will follow them. 00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:36.240 Will they be additive? 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:40.240 Will they get along with the people in the leadership team and the company in general? 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:42.880 Will they fit the culture, whatever that is? 00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:51.839 And so they're doing their own assessment and analysis, just like Jeff and I and colleagues on this side, as well as references, we'll talk about fit. 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:56.720 So fit is something that's not determined at one single point in the process. 00:17:56.960 --> 00:18:07.599 It's we'll give our assessment, the company will get their assessment, we'll get references to give their assessment, we'll get psychometric tests to get that assessment on fit. 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:10.559 So there's lots of different ways to triangulate fit. 00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:14.880 A couple of points before understanding that fit a little bit better, Kelly. 00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:22.480 First of all, you mentioned that you and your colleagues are focused and specialized, and that adds tremendous value. 00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:33.279 Shout out to my friend Julian

Ha here in DC, very involved in the economic club and a lot of different associations. 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:42.400 And he's very focused and knows everyone in public policy for organizations and knows association executives and people in government. 00:18:42.720 --> 00:19:02.400 So he is not going and doing Google search or going on LinkedIn or doing an AI search for that matter to find some of the best candidates because he already has those relationships, and those executives have already developed that ongoing relationship with him. 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:10.880 So it's not something that starts the day the organization is looking for a person or the day a person is looking for a move. 00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:17.519 The relationship has been built, the understanding, the branding has been communicated over years. 00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:18.559 Yeah, that's right. 00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:24.480 And Julia is an awesome consultant and uh good friend and 100% correct. 00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:28.799 At the senior level, the relationships, and Jeff and I talk about this in the book. 00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:34.960 Every one of the Shreks, and your audience, I'm sure, knows what the Shreks are, but just in case they don't, it's an acronym. 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:42.079 S stands for Spencer Stewart, H for Heydrich, R for Russell Reynolds, E for Gun Zender, and K for Corn Ferry. 00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:50.720 So each of the Shrek recruiting firms, they have probably, I'll say one or two, but it may be one or two more. 00:19:50.799 --> 00:20:04.079 But it there's very few search partners in every one of these major firms that will specialize in exactly what your audience, each of your audience members, where they're at in their career. 00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:17.039 It could change throughout the course of their career, but the reality is just because somebody works at Hydric and Struggles doesn't mean they're a generalist and does everything to your exact point. 00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:21.200 So part of the challenge for leaders, it's misunderstood. 00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:32.799 They need to understand and find out who is the specialist that really is going to represent the kinds of roles at the quality of companies at the altitude. 00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:37.839 That's the search consultants you want to find a way to get introduced to if you don't know them already. 00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:49.599 If you know them already, then what I recommend is that you continue to form a relationship and help them offer to make introductions, offer to give perspective, offer to give back channels. 00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:53.200 There's lots of different ways to create value and create those relationships. 00:20:53.440 --> 00:21:02.720 So I wonder with respect to that, also, Kelly, what role does personal branding play in this process? 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:09.839 It's a really big part of the process because at the end of the day, we all have our own brand. 00:21:10.079 -->

00:21:14.319 And you don't want your brand to be associated with lack of integrity. 00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:17.920 You don't want your brand to be associated with lack of moral compass. 00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:22.400 You don't want your brand integrity to be not a team player, difficult to work with. 00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:23.359 The list goes on. 00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:28.079 Your audience can fill in all those things that you don't want your brand to be associated with. 00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:38.079 Conversely, you want your brand to be associated with all the things that you would imagine: high integrity, high moral compass, impact player, team player, collaborative, all of those things. 00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:45.039 So this whole career journey and career arc and career management is really all about your brand. 00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:55.200 Because at the end of the day, yes, you have to show up in a competitive process and actually engage in a very thoughtful, intentional way. 00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:59.759 But the brand, the amount of time that you've had in your professional career to get you to that. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.400 Moment, that's the brand you have at that moment. 00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:05.759 The brand that you're going to keep building is how you show up every day. 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:11.279 Which is why it's also important going back to that first point that I'll keep repeating, Kelly. 00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:21.759 It is essential, regardless of what stage the executive is at right now, to think about and go through this process about their career. 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:33.920 All of this is developed over years and over decades, whether it's the relationships or the brand and the associations, the contribution, the providing value to others. 00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:35.920 All of it is done over years. 00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:42.400 It's not one day you decide you want to make a change and then you read a book and then it starts. 00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:43.920 Yeah, that's exactly right. 00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:55.039 And it's really great advice for your listeners and your audience because, again, this book was written for one segment of the market, but the reality is it applies to everybody. 00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:56.480 And that's just the truth. 00:22:56.559 --> 00:23:01.279 And it's the example I gave of the leader that sort of burned a bridge with the wrong person. 00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:12.559 And it could have been just that one wrong person, but that one wrong person created a situation where that individual didn't have the optionality to get that phone call or that CEO opportunity. 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:16.000 For your audience, absolutely read the book. 00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:22.880 Follow the principles in the book in terms of relationship building, networking, learning how to speak. 00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:39.359 If you're talking about a role that you've never done, that fluency, and I've said this a lot of times to executives, like if you've never been a CEO, you know how to talk to a CEO as a leader, but do you know how to speak like a CEO? 00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:41.920 That's a really different fluency. 00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:50.559 And so go interview for CEO opportunities and learn how to speak and think like a CEO if you've never been one. 00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:55.119 That is all part of the process of building your brand that you just talked about. 00:23:55.440 --> 00:24:06.799 So I want to touch on that process a little bit more, but before I do, over the years, you've done a lot of searches and placements and have seen other searches and placements. 00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:17.680 When an executive appointment fails, Kelly, how do you distinguish whether there was leadership failure or selection failure? 00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:23.039 Honestly, I don't know if it's 100% clear all of the time. 00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:24.799 Everyone has their perspective. 00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:31.039 If you talk to a leader that's been fired, they'll give you their perspective of why they were fired. 00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:39.599 And it's whether it's and you can go reference back to where that executive came from, and the company will have their point of view. 00:24:39.759 --> 00:24:41.759 The executive's going to have their point of view. 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:54.880 At the end of the day, like when there's a failed search, and by that I would say the leader didn't last at least a year or didn't make the impact that they thought they were making when they made that hire. 00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:58.480 Usually what will happen is they'll go back and look at the references. 00:24:58.640 --> 00:25:02.799 What was said, and they'll do an audit basically of the process. 00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:04.640 What did the references tell us? 00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:07.839 What did our interviews tell us about this person? 00:25:08.079 --> 00:25:09.519 Did we listen to our gut? 00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:15.200 Did we listen to our own feedback as we were debriefing on this candidate? 00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:24.480 Oftentimes there's value when they go do that and they can go find something and point to it that was missed in the process, but that was highlighted. 00:25:24.640 --> 00:25:35.200 It was just overlooked, or maybe said differently, the weighting on that particular piece of feedback was overshadowed by something else that was more attractive. 00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:37.519 I love the way you talked about it. 00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:41.359 There is a looking at what lessons you can learn. 00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:50.720 However, there is a level of resulting that we do as well in that if it doesn't work, we assume it was the search process. 00:25:51.039 --> 00:26:11.200 No, there are cases where people, for a whole host of reasons, end up not being successful in a specific role, which is why one of the other points that you make in the book, and I see executives not do as

thorough a job with it, is it's a two-way interview process. 00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:15.519 It is not a sales process from one side to the other. 00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:26.400 So I would love to get your thoughts on in what ways should the executives be interviewing to make sure they're walking into the right fit. 00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:32.000 Yeah, we say that exact comment, Mahan, which is interviewing is not a sales process. 00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:43.200 I think for many senior leaders, there's a mindset that just doesn't exist anymore, which is an interview is I ask the questions and you answer the questions. 00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:47.119 That is a very legacy definition of an interview. 00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:51.519 In today's world, an interview is an executive dialogue. 00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:58.480 And it's an executive dialogue at the senior most level, at the mid-level, and even at the entry level. 00:26:58.640 --> 00:27:12.720 It's really about engaging with whoever you're meeting with curiosity, as we said, self-awareness, but doing in preparation, as Fiji Simo says in the book, which I thought this was a really great quote. 00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:18.000 Be clear about who you are, what you believe, and how you plan to contribute. 00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:21.279 Bring ideas, show them how you think. 00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:31.759 That quote, I thought was it captures it really well because what often we hear from leaders is I want that job. 00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:33.359 I can do that job. 00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:36.480 That is none of the things I just read in that quote. 00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:46.799 Like any of your listeners telling me or Jeff or you or anybody that you want a job or you can do a job, that is no value. 00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:51.440 Because the fact that you're sitting there or talking to us, that's already assumed. 00:27:51.599 --> 00:27:54.160 Now let's get to what Fiji Simo just said. 00:27:54.319 --> 00:27:58.079 Show me how you think, what you plan to contribute, and show me who you are. 00:27:58.319 --> 00:28:01.680 That's an outstanding way of looking at it. 00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:15.039 I also love Kelly where a lot of times in all types of interviews and conversations, at some point the question comes up around weaknesses. 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:17.440 And we can spend an entire hour on that. 00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:18.960 I don't want to do that. 00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:28.400 But what I love is an example you have in the book of a leader who explained complementary capabilities he needed around him. 00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:30.559 Les talks about self-awareness. 00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:42.880 I think nothing sells self-awareness as much as someone recognizing a real weakness along with the complementary skills that they need to surround themselves with. 00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:52.559 The quote that you're referring to was from Anish Beit Lath, and it was a fantastic quote where he talked about one leader saying he was going to be perfect. 00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:54.400 He could do all of it, et cetera. 00:28:54.559 --> 00:29:04.240 And the other leader saying, hey, listen, here's the things that I'm particularly good at and give you examples of, but here's what I would need to have augmented and supported. 00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:18.640 And that, as Anish says in the book, that self-awareness, that ability to look, and at a senior level, let's face it, if you've gotten to this level of a career, you've been given a lot of feedback. 00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:23.039 You're very well aware of what your blind spots are in development opportunities. 00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:38.319 What Jeff and I see a lot of leaders do is what Anish talked about, the first leader, which is tries to come across as perfect, try to come across as I have no blind spots, I have no gaps in my skill set. 00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:40.400 And the reality is we all do. 00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:43.200 Nobody, none of your listeners are perfect. 00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:45.359 You and I aren't, none of us are. 00:29:45.599 --> 00:30:03.599 And you come across, although this sounds a little counterintuitive to a lot of people, but you come across as a much stronger leader when you can say, hey, listen, I can give you examples of experience and capability, et cetera, on these major elements of the role. 00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:08.240 But this one role, this one part of the role, I would really need to get supported. 00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:14.960 While that may sound like you're admitting a weakness, the reality is they're gonna find out anyways. 00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:18.559 You may as well be up front about it, you may as well take out the risk. 00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:19.759 I'll give you an example. 00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:23.359 I was talking to, this one makes me laugh when I say it. 00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:29.920 I'm not gonna say the name, but it was somebody that was going to step into a global sales role for the first time. 00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:33.839 And this individual had a very impressive background. 00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:42.640 And for as he was negotiating his cop's offer, and I suggested I said, Do you want to ask for an executive coach? 00:30:42.880 --> 00:30:46.480 And he said, that will make it sound like I don't know what I'm doing. 00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:49.119 And I said, But you've never done the role. 00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:50.960 And so they already know that. 00:30:51.119 --> 00:31:05.759 So you're not telling them anything new, but by asking for it, you're gonna come across as self-aware and you're gonna come across as, listen, you're gonna eliminate the risk from the investors because you're not gonna make rookie mistakes. 00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:11.039 So it's just be upfront about things and just have an executive dialogue. 00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:23.599 A lot of times we try to portray an image, and when that image doesn't match reality, other people in many instances can see

it. 00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:33.920 And I know at Hydreich you guys do a fantastic job of different assessments, different checks to try to get a good understanding of the candidates. 00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:36.960 So you do have a good picture. 00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:45.680 The only thing the person is doing to a certain extent is showing you whether they have self-awareness and they can see that picture as well. 00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:53.839 Now, another thing that you also talk about, wanted to touch on, is about reference conversations or reference checks. 00:31:54.079 --> 00:31:59.200 Do those ever change the decision that's about to be made, Kelly? 00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:00.240 It surely does. 00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:12.160 Historically, references would be done towards the end of a process after a company has gotten to a point where they're thinking about narrowing down their conversations to one or two people. 00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:15.599 That's typically the way it used to be thought of. 00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:26.079 Today, these decisions, as Ryan Green from Francisco Partners points out in the book, you know, these are often billion-dollar bets on this level of executive. 00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:32.400 These are big bets, and in some cases, they're probably bets of whether or not the company is going to be around. 00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:45.599 You make a couple bad hires at a senior level in the market today that's moving as fast as it is, and the company can go from a category later upper right-hand quadrant to somebody that is not even on the radar anymore. 00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:58.400 So the references start, and your audience needs to know this for sure at a senior level, but I would even argue at mid-tier or mid-level in your career, they start before a phone call is ever made. 00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:03.039 Before Jeff and I and our colleagues will call somebody, especially somebody new. 00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:10.880 We're calling references that you've worked with that we have relationships with to get their perspective if you're worth calling. 00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:13.759 And then we're gonna call all the way through. 00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:25.440 The company is gonna call their the board of the company you're viewing at, the talent, HR team, the leadership team, they're all gonna call as well as it gets closer towards the end of a process. 00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:29.599 So references play a huge role in a process. 00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:41.519 I've gotten over the past few years at least half a dozen, if not more, reference calls for people who had not necessarily mentioned me as their references. 00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:48.880 So you are doing reference checks, but it's not necessarily what people think of as reference checks. 00:33:49.119 --> 00:33:58.000 You check the real connections that people this person has worked with in the past, not the list of names that have been provided to you. 00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:07.680 Yeah, there are still some executives that think when they are asked for references, that we are allowed to only call those names. 00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:19.519 There are times where somebody is in a role, is a 16B officer, there's a lot of sensitivity, and you have to be very careful how you do references in those situations for obvious reasons. 00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:28.159 But we will call anybody to get if we feel that there's reason to call beyond who they've given us. 00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:36.400 Typically, what's referred to as off-reference or informal references that are not names that were given or provided by the leader. 00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:43.119 So there are times where we're limited who we can call until a certain point in the process. 00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:49.519 But in general, your listeners should know and need to know is that references play a very important role. 00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:56.639 It's not just who you give us, they're being called throughout, and they're being called for the most part for your entire career. 00:34:56.880 --> 00:34:58.800 Now, are we going to go back 30 years? 00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:02.000 Probably not, but definitely the last five to 10. 00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:07.920 And it's investors, it's board, it's people that worked with you, people that were in the C-suite. 00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:09.440 It's all of the above. 00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:15.360 And so it's not just the one or two names you gave us, or very linear who you reported to. 00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:24.000 Now, at a certain point, you go through that process, Kelly, and you've negotiated the compensation that you mention. 00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:25.519 That's not the only thing. 00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:28.320 There is so much more to those negotiations. 00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:30.000 That's a part of what you cover. 00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:46.320 But you also identify that as a new leader, there are six people that you need the expectation setter, champion, strategic guide, culture carrier, truth teller, and the expert. 00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:53.119 Which do you think is most often missing when people transition into a new leadership role? 00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:58.079 I think the truth teller is a super important person to find. 00:35:58.239 --> 00:36:14.400 The person that can really help you understand what is the true North, what is the real situation here, because everyone's going to want, especially if you're coming in as CEO, everyone's going to want to tell you what you want to hear. 00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:33.840 Finding those people that will be bold, courageous, brave, whatever word you want to use, to be transparent about the team you're inheriting, the situation you're inheriting, the board, you're all of it is probably, they're all very important personas, for sure. 00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:37.519 And you might get different answers from different people you ask. 00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:42.800 But for me, the truth teller is a super

important person to find in that mix of six. 00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:44.719 It is absolutely critical. 00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:46.639 I couldn't agree with you more, Kelly. 00:36:46.719 --> 00:37:03.280 I think it's essential at all stages of a leader's career, at that beginning stage, when they become the new CEO of the organization, everyone's trying to make a good impression on this new leader of the team division. 00:37:03.760 --> 00:37:09.280 And people tend to censor or self-monitor what they say. 00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:14.960 So that is absolutely critical at all stages, most especially at the beginning. 00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:22.079 Now, before wrapping up, I would love to also get your thoughts, Kelly, on the impact of AI on all of this. 00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:42.559 So I do believe on the entry level for a whole host of reasons, besides the jobs that will get shifted, it is really muddying the waters in that everyone has the perfect resume matching the applicant tracking systems, the ATSs. 00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:46.639 Companies don't know what's what, people don't know what's what. 00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:49.679 There is a lot of noise and craziness there. 00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:51.360 That's not the focus of the book. 00:37:51.519 --> 00:38:00.960 That's not the focus of my audience, but I do think there is something that is woken at that level for hiring talent. 00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:17.760 Would love to know what has been, in your view, the impact of AI on the mid to higher level range of talent, matching talent recruitment, and then the on-ramp of these executives. 00:38:18.159 --> 00:38:29.920 Let's face it, AI has been used in this use case, a use case being a career transition, leading up to a meeting, in some cases, interviewing even senior executives. 00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:40.639 There are some companies using AI to interview even senior level executives and listening for sentiment, clarity, conciseness, and different vectors and scores. 00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:44.159 And then afterwards as well, meeting summaries, et cetera. 00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:48.000 But at the end of the day, AI can't shake hands. 00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:50.159 It can't make a decision. 00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:53.679 But there's certain things that the human being are going to have to do. 00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:59.840 Where I've seen it have a huge impact to your point, mid-level to senior level. 00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:09.119 And this is in the book, and I highly recommend people do it because even today I'm giving this advice and people are acting as if it's a new idea. 00:39:09.199 --> 00:39:11.440 And what I'm going to say is not a new idea. 00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:19.679 But for many people and many listeners, it is a new idea, which is AI is a great interview coach. 00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:32.320 And if you're not using AI as an interview coach, and what I mean by that is many people are putting the job in to whatever LLM they use and asking questions. 00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:42.320 But the way I've seen executives use it in a very compelling way is they'll put their own resume into their LLM. 00:39:42.400 --> 00:39:47.599 They'll put as much data about the company and the role specifically, maybe the job spec. 00:39:47.920 --> 00:39:58.639 They'll put the person that they're meeting their LinkedIn bio or as much data as you have on them, and then toggle back and forth and have AI role play with you. 00:39:58.880 --> 00:40:05.519 What are the most likely questions this person at this company is going to ask this executive about this role? 00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:12.159 What are the most compelling answers for that company with that question for that person? 00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:16.159 And literally toggle it back and forth in preparation. 00:40:16.400 --> 00:40:18.880 That is a compelling way to use AI. 00:40:19.119 --> 00:40:28.239 It's not that it's giving you the answers because at the end of the day, you have to engage, as we said earlier in this call, you have to engage in the actual discussion. 00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:41.039 But it starts to get your headset with the right clarity, the right conciseness about the questions that are going to matter to that leader for that role at that company. 00:40:41.280 --> 00:40:46.800 If you're not doing that, if somebody is listening to this and they're not doing that, they're already behind. 00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:50.639 So, because there are lots of leaders doing that. 00:40:50.800 --> 00:40:56.400 And so to me, that's the thing I would say to your listeners, AI can play a lot of different roles. 00:40:56.639 --> 00:40:59.039 We use AI, we have a new assessment. 00:40:59.199 --> 00:41:01.840 We talked about how do we assess a fit, et cetera. 00:41:02.079 --> 00:41:17.280 Hijrick has come out with a new immersive AI tool that we use to really determine and assess people's agility and adaptability around how they would act in a certain situation with certain dynamics and variables. 00:41:17.440 --> 00:41:21.360 And so you can see real time, how they process data, et cetera. 00:41:21.519 --> 00:41:22.960 Again, that's fantastic. 00:41:23.119 --> 00:41:25.679 And it's been incredibly successful. 00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:29.519 But for your listeners, that's what I would do. 00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:40.639 What an outstanding recommendation in that it can become the most powerful coach to help you refine your story. 00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:44.079 You also mentioned that in the book as well, Kelly. 00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:47.920 We all know our stories and own our stories. 00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:57.360 That doesn't necessarily mean we know how to communicate it in a way that resonates with others and then connects to the opportunities. 00:41:57.519 --> 00:42:06.800 So AI becomes a great partner in this instance to both ask the questions, to help us refine our stories. 00:42:07.119 --> 00:42:17.519 So when we are in front of the person, interviewing committee,

board, whoever it is, we can be ourselves and share our own story. 00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:24.559 AI can't tell us what makes us unique and what makes us special, but it can help us refine our story. 00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:26.079 Yeah, it's really true. 00:42:26.239 --> 00:42:29.599 When I ask executives, how are you using AI? 00:42:29.840 --> 00:42:33.119 I'll say 100%, but it maybe it's 99%. 00:42:33.440 --> 00:42:38.000 They all use AI to research the company and get prepared. 00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:40.400 It's like the one yard line. 00:42:40.480 --> 00:42:51.760 There's so much more that you could be and should be doing and using AI for this entire process, so that you do realize it's one of the things Jeff and I talk a lot about. 00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:55.440 And it's why this process is challenging for a lot of people. 00:42:55.519 --> 00:42:58.639 Because to your point, Mahan, you know your story. 00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:02.239 And most leaders are ready to tell their story. 00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:07.679 And it's push play and then rewind and play and rewind no matter who you're in front of. 00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:10.800 And that's the worst thing that somebody can do. 00:43:11.119 --> 00:43:20.960 Because you need to think of yourself as you're going to package your story because now you know what matters, what that company or that leader is listening for. 00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:23.119 They're going to tell you what matters to them. 00:43:23.280 --> 00:43:28.159 So just pay attention to what signals they're giving you that what really matters. 00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:35.119 And then repurpose your narrative and your story to match what matters to them. 00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:41.360 And every single person, it's probably going to have a different list of what matters to that individual. 00:43:41.519 --> 00:43:47.920 But the whole trick, if your listeners get nothing more from this discussion than this point, just repack it. 00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:51.760 Don't ever tell your story the same way every single time. 00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:58.559 It should be told unique, but spoke differently for what matters to that leader in that company at that moment. 00:43:58.880 --> 00:44:01.039 What outstanding advice, Kelly. 00:44:01.119 --> 00:44:02.960 I really appreciate that. 00:44:03.280 --> 00:44:04.800 And also your book. 00:44:05.199 --> 00:44:08.800 Can the audience find your book, follow your writing and work as well? 00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:10.239 I appreciate that, Lon. 00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:14.719 You can find it on Amazon, show up to win, how to land the leadership role you want. 00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:17.840 You can find on Apple, I target, Kmart, etc. 00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:22.000 Jeff and I, you can find us on the Hydric.com website. 00:44:22.239 --> 00:44:32.480 But your point is a great point to end with, which is yes, advice we're giving is really valuable at the moment of a transition. 00:44:32.639 --> 00:44:37.519 But the real value of this book is to start today. 00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:48.320 There's no reason to wait to go buy the book or start to practice some of the principles of developing a relationship, developing your brand, good career management starts today. 00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:50.800 It doesn't start when you want to make a transition. 00:44:51.440 --> 00:45:00.239 Sometimes, Kelly, you want the expert in something to whisper the secrets in your ear so you know before you need it. 00:45:00.400 --> 00:45:13.199 This is the experts in executive recruiting whispering in your ear what you need to do on a consistent basis to be in a good position and have optionality if and when you need it. 00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:20.159 So I appreciate the conversation on your book, Shure Up to Win, How to Land the Leadership Role You Want. 00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:24.079 Thank you so much for joining me in the conversation, Kelly O'Kay. 00:45:24.320 --> 00:45:25.360 You're the best, Mahan. 00:45:25.519 --> 00:45:26.159 It's been a pleasure. 00:45:26.239 --> 00:45:27.679 I've really enjoyed getting to know you. 00:45:27.840 --> 00:45:28.719 Thank you. 00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:34.239 You have been listening to Partnering Leadership with your host, Mahan Tavakoli. 00:45:34.880 --> 00:45:50.400 If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and review of the podcast on your favorite podcasting app and forward the conversation to a friend or colleague so you can help more people discover their purpose, grow professionally with meaning, and have a greater impact. 00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:56.800 For additional leadership insights and bonus content, visit us at partneringleadership.com.