النص الكامل لحلقة 471 How to Ask Better Questions and Lead Through Uncertainty with Larry Robertson

lot about questions. 00:02:41.599 --> 00:02:45.280 But this idea of coming back and saying, is there something greater? 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:49.039 So that pattern has always been there as a push. 00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:51.599 But the now part, I think, is what's really important. 00:02:52.240 --> 00:03:04.240 If you look back over the past 25 years, roughly this century, this new century, there has been a global shift away from questions. 00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:10.560 And it started out as a very steadily growing thing, and now it's becoming a little bit more exponential. 00:03:10.719 --> 00:03:11.680 What do I mean by that? 00:03:11.840 --> 00:03:22.319 I mean that more often than not, we're making statements, that more often than not, when we ask a question, we're setting up to confirm a statement or to make a statement. 00:03:22.479 --> 00:03:24.800 Sometimes we're using questions to taunt. 00:03:25.039 --> 00:03:33.120 Sometimes we're using questions to see if we have allegiance with the people that we're asking it from and wanting nothing else from it. 00:03:33.360 --> 00:03:39.360 And so this movement away from questions is a curious thing, but I also think it's a very dangerous thing. 00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:47.840 Because when you look at the research on leadership and business in general, when the uncertainty goes up, the question should as well. 00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:59.759 Because if the uncertainty goes up, at the very least, it has the risk of undermining the assumptions on which you've based your business model, your management style, your company culture, everything that goes with it. 00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:11.599 At a minimum, you've got to ask questions as to whether or not you're still on track with those things, whether or not you remember your assumptions and if they're still relevant, and what's new that you should be incorporating. 00:04:11.759 --> 00:04:19.279 So when I see us moving away from all, that was a signal to me that really pushed me over the top to say, I have to look deeper into this. 00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:21.759 That's a powerful point, Larry. 00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:31.120 And a couple of things I wonder about it is I see societally as the level of uncertainty in our world has picked up. 00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:38.000 It seems to me people are looking more for certainty from their leaders. 00:04:38.160 --> 00:04:40.000 Do you see that as well? 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:44.879 Because what I hear from you is the level of uncertainty is going up. 00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:49.040 So we need more curiosity and therefore we need to ask questions. 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:50.879 But I almost see the opposite. 00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:56.720 People are looking for certainty in their leaders because they feel so much uncertainty in the world. 00:04:57.040 --> 00:04:59.519 Oh, I'm going to amplify what you just said. 00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:07.600 Because it's not just the people who are looking to their leaders and wanting, expecting, hoping for some kind of certainty. 00:05:07.759 --> 00:05:10.959 And we can think about all the obvious reasons why. 00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:18.639 You certainly feel a lot better about your situation, about yourself, and so on, if you can say certain things are certain. 00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:23.600 But there's a reinforcing mechanism with how all of us think about leaders. 00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:26.560 We look to leaders to have the answer. 00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:28.560 We look to leaders to fix things. 00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:37.279 We look to leaders in some organizations to pass all that certain information down so we can just continue to be followers. 00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:55.040 And leaders are taught to expect that of themselves, that if they're doing the job right, then somehow they're going to fulfill that mythology of having the answer to everything, of even being able to, one individual, to get their mind around the scope of business today. 00:05:55.199 --> 00:06:01.439 You take the smallest business, you take the simplest business, whatever minimizing adjective you want to put with it. 00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:05.600 And even those businesses are so complex right now. 00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:21.279 The way they have to incorporate technology, the number of places that they have to look for competitors who compete against them, how they bring resources to them, all of those things make for a very complex picture that cannot fit in any one person's head. 00:06:21.519 --> 00:06:29.439 So this mythology, even though it keeps going, is a really dangerous thing in these times as leaders have to take on more. 00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:36.319 And to get any of it done, they need to share that leadership with everybody on their team and everybody in their organization. 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:39.839 It's a collective solution these days to virtually everything. 00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:42.480 Couldn't agree with you more on that. 00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:51.519 Now, the other side of this that I wonder about, Larry, before we started recording, we were talking a little about AI and AI's implications. 00:06:51.920 --> 00:07:01.360 AJ Agribal talks brilliantly about prediction machines and how the cost of prediction will drop as accuracy of prediction goes up. 00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:19.120 So I wonder, will that therefore increase certainty and reduce our need for questioning or increase it in that we are going to have much more certainty in predicting a lot of things in our lives and in our organizations? 00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:24.800 How do you see that interplaying with the kind of questioning that you are talking about? 00:07:25.120 --> 00:07:28.240 First of all, we have to think about how most AI is built. 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:31.680 It's looking at data that's already happened, right? 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:40.480 It is predicting, but it's predicting based on data that I'm going to just work in broad brushstrokes, is basically in the

past. 00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:51.040 So in order for those predictions to be accurate, then a large portion of what the past was that generated that data has to be true in the future. 00:07:51.360 --> 00:08:00.079 So do we really believe that in the level of uncertainty that we're all living and working in these days, things are going to stay that much the same? 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:03.519 I would put a question mark on that at the very least. 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:14.639 But the second thing is that let's pretend that was going to stay largely the same, or we're talking about an application of AI where we can say, okay, but the data's pretty much the same. 00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:16.800 What are we trying to do with it? 00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:23.439 Are we working towards efficiencies, again, that would have worked in the past or work in this moment? 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:33.360 Or are we looking for something that allows us to adapt better or to innovate or to create out of things that aren't even there right now? 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:38.399 If you look at most of human progress, it's what I just described in the last 10 seconds. 00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:55.360 And so in order to do that, it requires a kind of thinking, a kind of exchange, a kind of acceptance and willingness to make mistakes that is not built into how most AI is programmed at this time. 00:08:55.600 --> 00:09:10.320 So I would argue that while it can be helpful in many ways, if we're looking towards the future and we're living in both an uncertain now and an uncertain future, AI is a great supporter and it helps with a lot of efficiencies and crunching data. 00:09:10.480 --> 00:09:17.039 But at the same time, we need things that are bigger than that, and I would say more human than that if we want to keep progressing. 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:34.720 What a powerful way to frame the importance of that human involvement and human judgment in the creativity that it takes to build the future rather than just rely on the predictions of the past. 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:36.559 Beautifully said, Larry. 00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:44.639 Now you open your book by calling it a yield guide rather than a traditional field guide. 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:54.159 So oftentimes a field guide, just for comparison and looking at the more typical, oftentimes a field guide says, the author is saying, This is how I did it. 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:56.720 If you follow, you'll get the same. 00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:00.320 That's not really what we want from any kind of guide. 00:10:00.559 --> 00:10:10.639 We want something that yields whatever we're after, hopefully yields something greater than what we're after, and continues to yield going forward. 00:10:10.799 --> 00:10:30.080 That's really what I mean by a yield guide in the larger sense is that you want to be able to understand, understand questions and use questions in a way that not only help you to get more of what you want, but really help you get more of what you really want. 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:31.919 The really word is very important. 00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:42.480 And I say that because we all want yield, but we tend to formulate yield as something that comes out of a set of actions and we get it in this moment. 00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:45.519 What we really want is yield ongoing. 00:10:45.679 --> 00:10:48.799 What we really want is to create value that's lasting. 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:53.360 What we really want is impact that has some staying power to it. 00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:57.120 So that's the primary reason that I call it a yield guide. 00:10:57.200 --> 00:11:00.240 But there's one other secret reason in there. 00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:13.039 And that is that even though this book is built to help any one person to, as I say it, master the art of the ask, to really get good at question asking and asking greater questions. 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:19.519 At the end of the day, to get that yield, questioning is something that you have to do collectively. 00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:38.480 And in order to do that well, it means that individual leader we talked about a few minutes ago, the one that has all the answers and can fix everything, has to yield to others who share in figuring out the solution, creating the innovation, whatever it might be. 00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:45.759 So there's a yield of a different type as well, which is to say nobody knows it all, but we can know a lot more together. 00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:47.759 That's where the yield guy comes from. 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:53.200 That becomes essential in a world that's becoming more and more complex. 00:11:53.840 --> 00:12:04.399 Therefore, the questioning is important, but part of what you're saying is the highest yield is a questioning culture, not necessarily a questioning leader. 00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:06.080 That's absolutely right. 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:07.200 That is absolutely right. 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:10.320 And in addition to a questioning culture, so this is interesting. 00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:16.720 Whenever we think about questions, ultimately what we're hoping for is the invitation to ask. 00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:20.480 We don't always get that invitation to ask, but we want that invitation. 00:12:20.559 --> 00:12:30.639 So when somebody says, okay, we're going to develop a more questioning culture in our organization, each of us individually, even if we're not conscious of it, is thinking, I get to ask more. 00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:38.559 But what a questioning culture really means is everybody gets to ask more, which means that there's a portion of the time when you are asking. 00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:43.440 There's another portion of the time when you're at the very least listening. 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:55.360 But I would suggest have to go a step further, which is to have the intellectual humility to realize, and this is the definition of intellectual humility: one, that there are things you don't

know. 00:12:55.919 --> 00:13:02.480 Two, that the things you know might be wrong for the particular situation or problem they're working on. 00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:07.600 And three, that might ask you to change in order for things to become better. 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:22.559 So if you think about a questioning culture, it's really about helping everyone to realize, including the leader, that there's this balance that everyone is asking, not just a handful of people, that the answer comes from many, not just one. 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:26.480 And that when you are not asking and answering, you're learning. 00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:28.480 So this is the interesting thing, Muhan. 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:35.919 There were five patterns that I saw across my research that ultimately lead to great questioning. 00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:42.399 And very quickly, there are five C's core, which is really this sense that we need questions. 00:13:42.559 --> 00:13:44.240 They are core to everything we do. 00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:48.639 We are a questioning species as much or more than we are anything else. 00:13:48.879 --> 00:13:51.360 But then listen to the next one: context. 00:13:51.679 --> 00:13:57.440 Context is really understanding where your questions are taking place and why they matter. 00:13:57.600 --> 00:13:59.600 And we don't often connect the two. 00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:02.080 We think we do, but we don't often connect the two. 00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:12.559 We already talked about the third one, and that's concession, which is not just asking, but this listening and weighing how much you know versus how much you do know, sometimes changing. 00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:16.799 Then there's this fourth pattern of the five, and that's connection. 00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:21.039 What are we trying to connect our questions to or towards? 00:14:21.200 --> 00:14:23.279 And then finally is continuation. 00:14:23.360 --> 00:14:27.200 It's this idea that question asking is not linear. 00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:30.240 Question asking is loopy at best. 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:32.960 You could say it's circular, but it's really loopy. 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:44.480 And so the reason I lay those out is that if those are your mentality, it doesn't mean that you're always asking a question, that you're always forming some sentence with a question mark at the end. 00:14:44.720 --> 00:14:49.440 You're looking at the dynamics that go into great questioning all the time. 00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:50.559 What's the context? 00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:52.480 What are we trying to connect this to? 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:57.120 How does this relate to how we treat one another in an organization and what the culture is? 00:14:57.279 --> 00:15:04.080 So you're doing a lot more of watching that while you both invite and allow the questions to be asked. 00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:13.120 And you're realizing that the only reason you're together trying to figure out how to work with one another in this way is you're trying to get somewhere which takes answers. 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:17.840 You also say in the book that we thrive on questions. 00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:21.039 The human brain thrives on questions. 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:23.039 Why is that? 00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:26.480 That is a very good question as to why it is. 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:33.440 What I can tell you is that the research on this is across disciplines. 00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:47.919 So the belief is shared from anthropology to early childhood development to the study of creativity and more, that we are not just a questioning species, but we are born asking. 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:53.039 So this is a, I think this is a really interesting, very simple, but really interesting distinction. 00:15:53.279 --> 00:16:00.240 Before we acquire language, which is how most of us think about questions, we're asking, how do I get fed? 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:03.200 Where do I find a place that I can get rest? 00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:05.919 Who can I count on to give me those things? 00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:09.919 Is this space safe enough for me to play in, to figure things out? 00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:18.399 Before I ever utter a word, and we're questioning each in our own way, taking feedback in and continuing to question. 00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:22.240 This is what makes us a questioning species at our core. 00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:27.679 And when you look at the research, it says that up until about the age of five, that's how children operate. 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:33.919 They have certain things that restrict them, whether it's their family life or it's communal things or it's teams that they're on. 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:42.879 It's not until they get to their formal education, and particularly in public schools, that we start to put some rules around question asking. 00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:48.480 But from a birth, from an evolutionary standpoint, that's our survival tool. 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:51.120 It's the thing that drives our curiosity. 00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:55.759 It's the thing that leads us to create, not just to be curious, but to make something. 00:16:55.919 --> 00:16:59.759 So it's there underneath all the other things that we would credit. 00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:03.039 And it doesn't go away, it just gets covered up. 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:07.680 So it's really there as a fundamental feature of every one of us. 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:10.480 It's just that many of us are out of practice in using it. 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:16.960 Why wouldn't you use that most powerful tool that you rely on from the minute you come out into the world? 00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:27.200 Is it that we've been out of practice as a result of modern education, modern society, or has that happened over time as well, Larry? 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:34.559 I'm just curious because there are a lot of different authors, many of them I respect, talk about the power of questioning. 00:17:34.720 -->

00:17:43.440 And everyone talks about how kids, they're always questioning, and then they get the wrong answer, and the teacher says this is the right answer, they stop questioning. 00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:47.200 So is it that education has taught us that or other things? 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:50.799 Because you say our brain thrives on questions. 00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:59.039 What has taken it away from us in order for us to then dust it off and go back to the way we should be? 00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:02.160 So there are three things I want to touch on that you said. 00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:08.160 One is there is no one resource, place, or person to blame. 00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:11.359 So I would never say, oh, it's all about education. 00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:13.440 Education just beats this out of us. 00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:14.720 No, that's not true. 00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:30.880 And if you think about the typical public school, all the people who work in a school are meeting the requirements and the guidelines of other people, from a superintendent to parents who vote a certain way, a school board, whatever it is, even national standards. 00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:33.279 So they're trying to meet those things. 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:37.200 When they teach, they're given a restriction on how they do that. 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:44.079 You only have so many hours in a day, and your students must advance this far in this grade during this year to get to the next one. 00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:48.400 So even just in that one example, it's hard to point a finger at anybody. 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:56.480 Even the people who are imposing the rules and the guidelines on a school, I think we can assume they're generally well intended. 00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:00.400 So we're trying to do multiple things as human beings. 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:03.680 We're trying to advance and accomplish. 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:12.960 When we go through one heck of a fight to do those things, we'd like to maintain the easier path we found through all the mistakes we made, right? 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:24.160 We love it when things are quick, not just because we're lazy or we don't want to try something new, but it's an efficiency and it allows us to have room to pay attention to other things. 00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:34.720 And in an uncertain world, we feel it within us, this desire to be able to check certain things off, say, I'm certain about those, so I can focus on these things that are uncertain. 00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:41.680 So I would answer your question by saying the things that push us away from questions are also in our nature. 00:19:42.319 --> 00:20:06.960 But when you look at what questions do, not only for our day-to-day lives and our ability to move forward, but that they actually help the brain stay healthier and accomplish anything we're going to do, I think it's just a call to action to say we should use this capability more than we do and more freely than we do, but not to the exclusion of other things. 00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:10.000 It's back to that word you put out earlier, balance. 00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:15.359 I love your empathy, Larry, and the way we answered that question. 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:29.440 In many respects, the restrictions we put, whether it's on teachers or the school board or whoever else, doesn't enable them to ask questions of why are we doing it this way? 00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:37.759 And in many respects, as you mentioned, we do want to add efficiencies and then we cut out the questioning. 00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:39.119 That's exactly right. 00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:50.880 So if you think about, I'm going to call it the modern corporate setting, and I'm going to give it a generous span in, say, the last 150 to 200 years, which is really quite generous, but let's call it that. 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:54.720 That has leaned more and more towards efficiency. 00:20:54.880 --> 00:20:58.720 Not a bad thing, but more exclusively towards efficiency. 00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:06.240 The evolution in what's up here in our brains, we're talking hundreds of thousands of years. 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:08.480 So it's pretty well set in there. 00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:37.119 And even though there is not absolute agreement across neuroscience of what's going on in the brain, there is wide and general agreement that the brain is at its best when it is in uncertain conditions, when things are complex, when it's solving, when it feels a sense that it needs to survive, when it is unrestricted, when it is growing in a discovery mode of wanting to find new things. 00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:38.960 This is just the science. 00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:49.039 But everything I just listed there is like a guidebook to say, oh my gosh, that's what we have to deal with in an uncertain world like the one we're living and working in right now. 00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:52.799 Oh, and that's what our brain is built to do. 00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:59.599 So for me, it's that recognition that says we should tap into that the best way. 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:03.599 Possible to use questions to our advantage. 00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:06.960 These are not zero-sum choices. 00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:14.319 That we pick this new thing, this guy's coming along, another guy's coming along and saying how important questions are, and we chuck everything else. 00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:15.440 That's not it at all. 00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:29.599 It's just saying that the absence of that in today's work and environment and in an environment where AI is becoming much more part of the context and the texture of every work and environment, that's when we need questions most of all. 00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:33.119 And it's not to say, should we have AI or should we not have AI? 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:39.839 It's to say, how do we make this partnership with this technology work the best way it can for what we're trying to accomplish? 00:22:40.079 -->

00:22:42.319 That's an example of the role of questions. 00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:47.200 So in order to do that, Larry, how should I start in this process? 00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:59.119 I think the first place that most leaders should start is to quietly observe, as a leader, whether or not questions are being asked in their organization. 00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:03.119 And if they are being asked, are they really questions? 00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:05.359 Or are they statements that are being made? 00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:06.799 I love the point you made. 00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:09.039 Whether questions are being asked. 00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:10.400 What types of questions? 00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:16.160 How do you know people are really asking questions in this organization? 00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:17.039 Sure. 00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:20.880 And that itself is a good question because there's a whole range, right? 00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:32.480 If you lay out a spectrum, as I do in the book, just for reference, this is not an absolute, but just to say where questions fall, there's a spectrum that runs from on one end what I call functional questions. 00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:34.000 What's for lunch? 00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:36.240 What will the numbers be next quarter? 00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:37.920 Did we hit them, right? 00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:42.400 There's a function to those questions that is really after an answer. 00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:48.400 And then that question is has less return that you get from it once it's been answered. 00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:49.440 That's on the functional end. 00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:53.519 Then there are these, I call on the other end of the spectrum, great questions. 00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:54.640 They're bigger. 00:23:54.799 --> 00:23:57.920 They're more related to your vision for the organization. 00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:00.400 They even start to touch on strategy. 00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:02.160 They're certainly there in the mission. 00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:09.039 They're open-ended in a way because you find, you say, this is the hill I want to take, this is what I want to accomplish. 00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:17.680 And then you start asking some functional questions about how do I do it in the immediate, but you're always returning to that longer-term view and that longer-term path. 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:22.559 Then there's the stuff in the middle, and I call it the messy middle. 00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:29.680 And the kind of questions that reside in the messy middle are not just ones that aren't functional or aren't great. 00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:32.160 They're questions that have not been thought about. 00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:42.960 So because we don't know if we're using questions in a functional way or we're stretching for something greater, and we just don't take the time to ask, is that why we're asking? 00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:47.680 We never place them on the right path so that they can have the greatest return for us. 00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:56.400 So this is why I say even observing whether or not you're asking questions and then observing where they fit on that spectrum tells you a lot. 00:24:56.559 --> 00:25:06.720 A lot of leaders will look at the questions that are being asked, they'll see that questions are being asked, place them on that spectrum, and see that not many great questions are being asked, right? 00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:08.240 They're all about the function. 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:11.279 In a world that's ever changing, that's a pretty dangerous thing. 00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:16.799 The second thing a leader can look for without ever opening their mouth is who's asking? 00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:23.440 Is everybody invited to ask, or is that limited to the C-suite or certain leadership or just the managers? 00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:35.839 Or does it radiate all the way down to the people who touch the product or the service or the customers most directly and probably have some pretty interesting insights that we all should be asking questions about? 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:39.039 So these observations of are you asking at all? 00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:41.200 What kinds of questions are being asked? 00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:42.640 Who's asking them? 00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:45.680 And then underneath that, what's the origin story of all that? 00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:50.400 Do we have a culture that basically says, without saying it, you're not allowed to ask? 00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:58.480 Or do we have a culture on the other end that says, I truly want you to be innovative, even if it turns the place upside down while you're doing that? 00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:00.240 Or is it somewhere in between? 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:08.240 Just those alone tell an individual leader where questions fit in their organization. 00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:10.319 And that's really the answer. 00:26:10.480 --> 00:26:14.559 Because if I was to sit here and say, here's how everybody starts, right? 00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:20.720 And this is the path you have to follow after that, it shows that I don't know very much about questions. 00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:27.920 But if you approach it in the way that I'm suggesting, I think you can learn a lot about what you know, what you don't know, and what you could do. 00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:38.079 Now, would that gauge be different, Larry, with respect to the type of organization or industry, or do you see it being relevant in all types of organizations? 00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:45.200 I think you could pick an organization or an industry where let's just say things don't change a lot. 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:48.160 It doesn't mean they don't change at all. 00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:52.960 Our tendency is to say, oh gosh, we're an amazingly innovative organization. 00:26:53.119 --> 00:27:00.160 We should be asking all the time and really pushing that, or on the other extreme, no, we're pretty predictable and we should be pushing towards efficiency.

00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:14.160 So it's not that those statements are completely wrong, but they say something about the proportion of question question asking that you do and the way you ask questions rather than whether they should be there or not be there, if that makes sense. 00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:21.440 So I think that does shift across organizations and appropriately, and you mentioned AI in that. 00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:26.880 The role of AI in any organization shifts in a similar way. 00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:28.160 It's a tool. 00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:36.960 It can be a partnering tool, but it's not going to mean the same thing in every organization or in any moment in time. 00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:42.960 It's a tool that needs to be constantly referenced again to say, what is it we want this to do? 00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:44.799 How do we want it to help us? 00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:48.000 How do we as humans want to interact with it? 00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:51.680 And does that still fit the assumptions and circumstances we're in? 00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:53.359 Or do we need to change something? 00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:56.799 That's not really new to leadership or management or anything else. 00:27:56.960 --> 00:27:59.839 It's just a new thing we're asking those questions about. 00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:03.920 So it takes that intellectual humility we've touched on a couple of times. 00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:09.519 And I think the more experience we gain, the older we get, the higher up people move into organizations. 00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:14.880 We do accumulate a certain amount of expertise, knowledge, understanding. 00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:26.319 It becomes harder to maintain that intellectual humility that is required for the right types of questions for us to ask. 00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:28.240 How do you do that, Larry? 00:28:28.400 --> 00:28:33.759 You are brilliant, author of many books, Fulbright scholar, you name it. 00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:38.000 How do you maintain intellectual humility? 00:28:39.279 --> 00:28:41.359 Thank you for those very nice compliments. 00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:49.599 But I will tell you that the more projects I get into, like the ones you described, really the more I understand that I don't know. 00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:51.279 And I like to learn. 00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:55.680 So having that base, I feel, is a bit of an advantage that I like to learn. 00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:09.039 Here's a second thing that I use as a way to practice intellectual humility, and that is to understand that there's a difference between humility as we usually think about it and intellectual humility. 00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:18.160 So humility is really, it really involves an ability to see your current limitations in this situation and this moment. 00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:20.240 It's very now focused. 00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:26.640 And we think of that as humbling in the sense of almost yielding or giving up in the bad sense. 00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:34.960 Intellectual humility focuses on knowledge, beliefs, intelligence, things that are bigger than this moment. 00:29:35.119 --> 00:29:45.680 And so one of the ways that I think about intellectual humility and try to embrace it more often is to say, what is this moment telling me about how I think overall? 00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:49.839 What is this moment telling me about what this moment might mean in the future? 00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:51.759 And its reference points to the past. 00:29:51.920 --> 00:30:11.440 So it's even just that distinction between humility, which we think of as meekness, and intellectual humility, which is more growth mindset, is a distinguishing factor that I think we free ourselves to practice more intellectual humility that way rather than saying, oh my God, that's a form of humility. 00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:12.720 I got to get away from it. 00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:18.319 But let me give you a couple of others that I found very interesting from some of the interviews I did. 00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:30.240 One person I spoke with talked about how her signal to herself to regain intellectual humility as a priority is to quiet her cleverness. 00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:38.400 So it is this acknowledgement that she is unbelievably clever and smart and accomplished and everything else. 00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:46.079 But the way she can stay achieving at that level is to quiet her cleverness. 00:30:46.319 --> 00:30:51.200 A second person I talked to said, I try to listen atmospherically. 00:30:51.440 --> 00:31:00.079 And I love that because it says instead of in a QA exchange where I'm typically waiting for an answer, I ask you a question and I'm waiting for an answer. 00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:05.279 Or I ask you a question and whatever your answer is, I'm trying to move on to my next question. 00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:10.000 Listening atmospherically is like taking in those five C's. 00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:13.359 What is the context in which we're saying these things to one another? 00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:15.039 What am I trying to connect this to? 00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:16.880 What could I connect it to? 00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:23.440 So I love that concept of am I listening atmospherically or am I listening in a very narrow, typical way? 00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:28.880 And I'll give you one more, and that is to decolonize our thinking. 00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:36.640 We don't realize how quickly we get down a path to thinking within boundaries. 00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:39.599 It's not a totally bad thing. 00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:45.920 It's just something that needs to happen and then needs to open up and then needs to happen again and needs to open up. 00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:55.359 And when we don't have those opening up intervals, we colonize, we become very close to our thoughts and we put boundaries around them. 00:31:55.519 --> 00:32:12.480 So if you decolonize your thinking, as somebody else I spoke with said, you're allowing

yourself to move beyond the boundaries, beyond the rules, the plans, even the results that you've had, not necessarily to change, but to see where there is opportunity to change or to do better. 00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:13.039 That's it. 00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:22.960 And if you think of all three of those things, quieting your cleverness, listening atmospherically, and decolonizing your thinking, you're just playing around. 00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:26.000 Nobody has asked you to change anything. 00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:31.039 You're just trying out new ways to see the world and to see your own thoughts. 00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:33.279 That's intellectual humility. 00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:37.519 What a beautiful way to frame it. 00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:47.359 Because before we follow your framework asking questions, we really need to open up and have that intellectual humility. 00:32:48.160 --> 00:32:48.640 Exactly. 00:32:48.799 --> 00:32:50.559 So this is an interesting thing. 00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:54.720 That the art of the ask is an overlay to anything else you're doing. 00:32:54.880 --> 00:32:56.400 It's not a replacement. 00:32:56.799 --> 00:33:02.400 So you asked me the question about how does a leader, CEO, whoever it might be, begin to do this. 00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:09.200 And I was thinking at the time about Danny Warshe, his book, which is See Solve Scale. 00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:12.720 And it's a Bible-like book for entrepreneurs. 00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:18.640 Danny is a multi-time serial entrepreneur, like successful entrepreneur. 00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:24.079 And he started the institution at Brown University for entrepreneurship. 00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:26.799 So he's seen it from a lot of different angles. 00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:32.880 So Danny has a way that he encourages entrepreneurs to think about how they build their business. 00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:37.440 This is something that a leader in any position with any type of organization has to think about. 00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:41.359 And so he boils it down to a framework that has four components. 00:33:41.680 --> 00:33:43.039 Digest, right? 00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:51.039 You take whatever's in front of you, the opportunity, the threat, the culture that exists, the culture that you want, and you digest what's there first. 00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:53.119 That's a big question-asking thing. 00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:54.960 Then the second step is to aim it. 00:33:55.039 --> 00:34:03.599 Whatever I've taken in, where do I aim it towards something I can build on when it comes back as something that's worth pursuing, which sometimes that takes a while? 00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:06.480 The third thing I want to do is embed the behavior, right? 00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:12.719 If I digested that this is the right thing to aim at and the way I'm doing it is working, I want that to become a behavior. 00:34:12.880 --> 00:34:16.559 And ultimately the fourth step is to establish a new norm. 00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:20.639 So what I'm doing is I'm just giving you another framework, right? 00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:24.639 And I'm not saying that's better or worse than the art of the ask. 00:34:24.719 --> 00:34:26.800 What I'm saying is the two things go together. 00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:32.239 And any leader can say, gosh, I work off this framework, whether it's loose or firm. 00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:33.679 The answer is good. 00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:38.239 Begin with that and overlay the art of the ask on it. 00:34:38.719 --> 00:34:46.239 That is more likely to get you to see the truth and then to make the kind of changes you need to make that are the valuable ones we want to make. 00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:54.239 And in doing that, I want to wrap up with one thing that's been on my mind a lot as well, Larry. 00:34:54.559 --> 00:34:59.119 You mentioned that our brain treats open questions like a batch file. 00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:00.960 And I love that analogy. 00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:10.079 And therefore, the power of even asking ourselves better questions. 00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:10.800 Yeah. 00:35:11.039 --> 00:35:16.320 So I think of it as your R-O-R, your return on reflection. 00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:21.599 Because typically, when you're asking yourself questions, you're asking reflective questions. 00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:27.280 They might be directed towards something, so we think of them more in those terms, but they typically are reflective. 00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:32.559 And I would start by saying there are those who don't do that, right? 00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:37.840 They probably have experience that it works, but they don't do it as a habit or as a practice. 00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:39.360 That's a good place to begin. 00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:46.239 The second thing, which is even more powerful, is when we reflect on something, we tend to look backwards, just like AI. 00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:53.280 We tend to look back and reflect on what's happened and learn the better lesson in that context that's already occurred. 00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:55.679 But reflection can happen forward too. 00:35:55.920 --> 00:36:01.039 It's a training ground for doing things in the future and hopefully doing things more efficiently. 00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:06.960 And then when you expand that and into an exchange with others, you amplify that reflection. 00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:14.480 So it's one of those ways that we can start personally, amplify what we do personally, and then connect it to other people. 00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:18.719 And I think that's always the best individual exercise. 00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:20.639 It is a powerful exercise. 00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:26.239 And I have to tell you, it's been on my mind the past few weeks after I read your book. 00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:31.199 You've all known Harari, he is a tiny bit dystopian on AI. 00:36:31.599 --> 00:36:42.559 And he talks about how his concern is when AI gets to know us better than we know ourselves, and how it will therefore be able to manipulate us. 00:36:42.960 --> 00:37:02.320 On the other end of it, if we are able to ask ourselves deeper and better questions, we will also get to know ourselves better, achieving part of what Harari says we need to be able to do in order to have more control of our own judgment rather than AI. 00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:04.800 Yeah, I really love the way you summarize that. 00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:07.119 And I'd summarize it down to one word. 00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:08.480 It's a choice. 00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:11.440 So it's not a lack of ability. 00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:14.320 It's not even a lack of know-how about what to do. 00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:26.079 If you don't like my guidelines in my book, there are others out there that encourage you to ask questions, but you have this choice to ask, to reflect, and to build your knowledge of yourself. 00:37:26.320 --> 00:37:33.599 AI isn't going to replace us without us choosing to allow it to replace us. 00:37:33.760 --> 00:37:35.199 That's the ultimate takeaway. 00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:37.920 So I think we have a little bit of a job to do. 00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:38.880 We do. 00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:45.519 And learning how to ask better questions becomes an essential part of that, Larry. 00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:52.639 So for the audience to follow you, your work, and find your book, where would you send them to, Larry? 00:37:53.039 --> 00:37:54.159 I appreciate you're asking. 00:37:54.320 --> 00:37:56.800 So the book can be found virtually anywhere. 00:37:56.960 --> 00:38:03.920 But if you go to my website, LR, those are my initials, Larry Robertson, lrspeaks.com. 00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:08.639 You can learn about the book, me, get the book, and everything else you probably want. 00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:19.679 I so appreciate you, Larry, and your book, Great Question, The Art of the Ask, and Getting More of What You Really Want. 00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:23.280 Thank you so much for joining me in this conversation, Larry Robertson. 00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:26.239 Thank you for the invitation and the great questions. 00:38:27.679 --> 00:38:31.920 You have been listening to partnering leadership with your host, Mahan Tavakoli. 00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:48.079 If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and review of the podcast on your favorite podcasting app and forward the conversation to a friend or colleague so you can help more people discover their purpose, grow professionally with meaning, and have a greater impact. 00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:54.480 For additional leadership insights and bonus content, visit us at partneringleadership.com.