النص الكامل لحلقة Solving the real problem: Lessons from Kurt Kandler

their trip to, in the middle, middle of nowhere, Uganda. 00:04:33.810 --> 00:04:40.319 And this was a time in my life that what I kinda refer to as our dark time, this was a very difficult time in our lives. 00:04:40.324 --> 00:04:41.639 We'll probably talk about that. 00:04:42.060 --> 00:04:46.199 But anyway he my buddy Dave showed a photo of this school. 00:04:47.055 --> 00:04:51.735 that was made outta mud and sticks and cow dung, and every time it rained, the walls would crumble. 00:04:51.735 --> 00:04:57.285 They'd have to repack the walls, dirt floor, no desk, kids sitting on rocks, no teachers, no supplies, all of that. 00:04:57.290 --> 00:05:03.944 And I was just puzzled by that last thing on my mind was that at that time. 00:05:03.949 --> 00:05:05.564 But I was really, why were you puzzled by it? 00:05:06.464 --> 00:05:07.665 Why not just build a brick building? 00:05:08.564 --> 00:05:09.324 I'm pretty easy. 00:05:09.329 --> 00:05:10.185 I can build things. 00:05:10.185 --> 00:05:13.634 Why don't you, why aren't, why not just go get some bricks and build a brick building? 00:05:13.665 --> 00:05:16.904 That's the classic kind of American perspective, right? 00:05:17.295 --> 00:05:19.454 I saw that as a problem to be solved. 00:05:19.454 --> 00:05:20.654 Just go solve that problem. 00:05:20.660 --> 00:05:21.555 And wait a second. 00:05:21.915 --> 00:05:23.954 Were you the only one that actually saw this? 00:05:23.985 --> 00:05:26.415 Or were there other parents that actually were exposed 00:05:26.415 --> 00:05:26.745 to this? 00:05:26.845 --> 00:05:32.985 There were some other some of their guests in our home that were celebrating their trip and they were just sharing their trip with us. 00:05:32.985 --> 00:05:33.314 Yeah. 00:05:33.915 --> 00:05:34.185 Yeah. 00:05:34.305 --> 00:05:34.964 And yeah. 00:05:34.964 --> 00:05:35.204 So 00:05:35.264 --> 00:05:38.024 why, were you like this is stupid, we should fix this. 00:05:39.930 --> 00:05:40.759 Why wasn't there? 00:05:40.764 --> 00:05:46.959 Why wasn't the other six dads that were there, or the six moms, they're going like, oh man, I'm all in. 00:05:47.100 --> 00:05:48.509 This is what we need to do. 00:05:48.509 --> 00:05:48.839 We get 00:05:48.839 --> 00:05:49.110 a fix. 00:05:49.110 --> 00:05:49.170 Yeah. 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:54.629 I think they were telling, talking about their whole trip, their whole experience, yeah. 00:05:54.870 --> 00:05:55.139 Cross. 00:05:55.620 --> 00:05:59.279 And I was what captured my heart was that school building. 00:05:59.279 --> 00:06:01.470 It just seemed, it seemed silly to me. 00:06:02.310 --> 00:06:03.600 Again, I can build things. 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:04.560 I'm handy. 00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:07.649 It's just why don't we just go fix that problem? 00:06:07.649 --> 00:06:17.730 And so anyway I, left that little dessert and coffee and next morning I'm in my office and in my quiet time, and again, this was a very difficult time in our lives. 00:06:17.730 --> 00:06:19.740 It's what we call our dark times and our family. 00:06:19.740 --> 00:06:22.649 And that's the time when you're leaning heavily into God. 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:25.709 What was that, when you say, you said it was dark times. 00:06:25.709 --> 00:06:26.430 What made'em dark 00:06:26.430 --> 00:06:26.670 times? 00:06:26.819 --> 00:06:28.290 Oh, my business had failed. 00:06:28.350 --> 00:06:29.339 I was out of work. 00:06:30.060 --> 00:06:33.149 I was working outta my basement trying to figure out how to make ends meet. 00:06:33.154 --> 00:06:34.470 Nothing was going well. 00:06:34.529 --> 00:06:35.699 It was my wilderness walk. 00:06:36.569 --> 00:06:40.410 How did your bi what, happened with your let's, roll back just a little bit. 00:06:40.620 --> 00:06:40.800 Okay. 00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:41.759 And what business were you 00:06:41.759 --> 00:06:42.029 in? 00:06:42.779 --> 00:06:46.040 So I had a direct marketing agency in Atlanta, Uhhuh here. 00:06:47.250 --> 00:06:50.639 At our peak, we had probably 45 or so employees. 00:06:50.639 --> 00:06:51.209 Did you start 00:06:51.209 --> 00:06:51.720 that too? 00:06:52.685 --> 00:06:53.100 I did. 00:06:53.250 --> 00:06:54.089 How long ago was that? 00:06:54.089 --> 00:06:54.839 What year was that? 00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:55.709 That you started that? 00:06:55.920 --> 00:06:59.189 I'm sorry, what year did you start that right outta college or? 00:06:59.310 --> 00:07:01.620 My kid my youngest son was 18 months old. 00:07:01.620 --> 00:07:03.060 So my, I like 93. 00:07:03.540 --> 00:07:06.360 And so we were 10 years into that, nine years into that. 00:07:06.449 --> 00:07:08.220 And nine 11 happened. 00:07:08.850 --> 00:07:10.949 Lot of our Was that right outta college that you started that? 00:07:11.339 --> 00:07:12.209 Oh gosh, thank you. 00:07:12.300 --> 00:07:12.750 Oh my. 00:07:12.754 --> 00:07:13.860 If I could give you a hug, I would. 00:07:14.189 --> 00:07:19.470 No I was in my early thirties at that point. 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:22.379 But yeah, I just look younger than I guess, than I am. 00:07:22.379 --> 00:07:23.720 But no I was, are you from. 00:07:25.454 --> 00:07:31.274 Originally born and raised in Wisconsin, but Atlanta's been home for 40 plus years, since early Oh, so 00:07:31.274 --> 00:07:32.384 as you were an adult? 00:07:32.745 --> 00:07:33.014 Yeah. 00:07:33.194 --> 00:07:33.524 Yeah. 00:07:33.975 --> 00:07:37.754 So you began your adulthood here, but your, all your childhood was back then? 00:07:37.845 --> 00:07:37.904 Yeah. 00:07:37.904 --> 00:07:39.615 Was your dad and was your dad a 00:07:39.855 --> 00:07:43.605 professional or he was in the insurance business for a while. 00:07:43.605 --> 00:07:46.305 He was a sales rep for a while. 00:07:46.694 --> 00:07:54.644 We lived in Wisconsin in my younger days, and then we moved to Florida and then they, landed in here in Atlanta when I was in college. 00:07:54.644 --> 00:07:57.495 I went to U S F university of

South Florida for a couple years. 00:07:57.675 --> 00:08:03.615 And then my entire family was here in Atlanta, so I moved back to Atlanta and finished school here. 00:08:04.154 --> 00:08:05.625 And just was there 00:08:05.834 --> 00:08:08.264 a reason that you didn't finish in us F I'm just 00:08:08.264 --> 00:08:08.834 curious. 00:08:09.225 --> 00:08:10.845 I just wanted to move back to family. 00:08:10.904 --> 00:08:16.634 So I just moved from USF to Georgia State, finished to Georgia State, got a business degree and I've been a aware You were Christian 00:08:16.634 --> 00:08:17.415 back then too. 00:08:17.714 --> 00:08:20.415 Was that something that was indigenous to your family? 00:08:20.685 --> 00:08:21.764 That I think so. 00:08:21.764 --> 00:08:24.464 I think, but I would say that we were nominally Christian. 00:08:25.134 --> 00:08:25.805 Oh, okay. 00:08:25.995 --> 00:08:32.384 School, my younger days, my, as a kid, I went to a small little Christian school in Wisconsin through grade school. 00:08:32.445 --> 00:08:35.445 And then so I knew all the Bible stories. 00:08:35.445 --> 00:08:37.304 I was in chapel every week, that type of thing. 00:08:38.054 --> 00:08:47.024 But I don't think that and while I believe I was a, believer really that walk was with Erica in our early years of our marriage. 00:08:47.355 --> 00:08:49.544 It's not until that those dark times hit 00:08:49.544 --> 00:08:56.404 Sounds like with your parents, given the activities that you were involved in to, to say it was nominal, I think a lot of people would say you were devoted. 00:08:57.330 --> 00:08:58.019 As a family. 00:08:58.019 --> 00:09:00.990 So there was a pretty strong foundation that was put in place for you? 00:09:01.169 --> 00:09:01.830 There was, yeah. 00:09:02.549 --> 00:09:08.009 There was, but it wasn't strong enough for me not to leave my faith until my late twenties, early thirties. 00:09:08.519 --> 00:09:19.139 And the way that I say it is during those dark times I realized that my way was not working. 00:09:19.919 --> 00:09:25.980 And I literally got outta bed at two o'clock in the morning, one, one night having this anxiety attack outta work. 00:09:25.980 --> 00:09:27.690 No money going into debt like crazy. 00:09:27.899 --> 00:09:29.789 It, I know how old was, how old were you then? 00:09:30.059 --> 00:09:31.080 Times than we had. 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:33.450 But this was a really difficult time. 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:39.750 And I realized that there was a difference between declaring Jesus Lord and allowing him to Lord over my life. 00:09:40.259 --> 00:09:50.730 And I think when I crossed that chasm of allowing him to Lord over my life, that's when I really said, my testimony is I'm gonna do the next right thing in times of confusion, chaos, whatever. 00:09:50.735 --> 00:09:53.159 I'm gonna do the next right thing and trust him with the results. 00:09:53.549 --> 00:09:54.690 And when I turned, when did that happen? 00:09:54.690 --> 00:09:55.409

How old were you then? 00:09:56.034 --> 00:09:57.434 40, I dunno. 00:09:58.575 --> 00:10:00.794 Huh what was 42? 00:10:00.794 --> 00:10:01.215 Maybe? 00:10:01.304 --> 00:10:01.725 I don't know. 00:10:01.725 --> 00:10:02.294 Something like that. 00:10:02.294 --> 00:10:02.774 42? 00:10:03.284 --> 00:10:03.615 Yeah. 00:10:03.825 --> 00:10:04.154 Yeah. 00:10:04.365 --> 00:10:05.144 I think it was 00:10:05.995 --> 00:10:07.485 And that would've been, what year was that? 00:10:07.485 --> 00:10:08.115 42. 00:10:08.654 --> 00:10:08.835 So 00:10:08.835 --> 00:10:11.085 this was this was 2000? 00:10:11.085 --> 00:10:12.345 No, so it was probably my ear. 00:10:12.345 --> 00:10:12.524 Yeah. 00:10:12.524 --> 00:10:13.184 Early forties. 00:10:13.184 --> 00:10:14.625 43, 44, something like that. 00:10:14.625 --> 00:10:16.695 So it's 2005, 2004. 00:10:17.235 --> 00:10:18.075 Oh, okay. 00:10:18.345 --> 00:10:19.245 Three, I'm trying to, 00:10:19.434 --> 00:10:19.794 years ago. 00:10:19.794 --> 00:10:23.565 But by then you, do have the, you are married, you do have kids. 00:10:24.465 --> 00:10:27.825 And you have a business that you say is failing and you just got to the. 00:10:28.350 --> 00:10:29.730 In effect end of your rope. 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:31.769 I know, I'm, that's exact. 00:10:31.980 --> 00:10:34.169 Your story and my story sound a lot alike. 00:10:34.409 --> 00:10:34.950 Alright. 00:10:35.669 --> 00:10:40.500 It's like things seem to be going okay and then they weren't going okay and they didn't look like they were gonna go. 00:10:40.504 --> 00:10:40.830 Okay. 00:10:41.460 --> 00:10:44.730 So you finally suddenly say, I don't, I'm losing hope here. 00:10:45.210 --> 00:10:45.870 What's the deal? 00:10:45.875 --> 00:10:52.230 But I do have my, I come, I'm, I look around and I got a house, kids, cars, wife what's going on? 00:10:53.164 --> 00:10:53.220 What's 00:10:53.220 --> 00:10:53.580 going on? 00:10:53.580 --> 00:10:56.009 And what, was going on was my way was not working. 00:10:56.279 --> 00:11:05.970 And again, allowing him to de the difference between declaring him Lord and allowing him the Lord over your life is a big, leap. 00:11:06.590 --> 00:11:08.970 And but when, I did that, it 00:11:08.970 --> 00:11:09.179 changed. 00:11:09.649 --> 00:11:12.899 Did somebody make you aware of that? 00:11:13.495 --> 00:11:13.649 Back then? 00:11:14.070 --> 00:11:14.220 Yeah. 00:11:14.250 --> 00:11:14.549 I had a, 00:11:14.549 --> 00:11:15.090 I have a buddy. 00:11:15.090 --> 00:11:15.370 This, 00:11:15.370 --> 00:11:15.929 there's this 00:11:15.929 --> 00:11:16.860 delineation. 00:11:17.220 --> 00:11:17.460 Yeah. 00:11:17.465 --> 00:11:19.559 He said it was, I was at church one Sunday. 00:11:20.144 --> 00:11:21.164 It's tough times. 00:11:21.404 --> 00:11:22.184 Parking cars. 00:11:22.539 --> 00:11:25.154 I'm, volunteering in the church, I'm going, I'm doing my, just doing life. 00:11:25.995 --> 00:11:33.644 And my buddy Kent said that to me and I'm not even sure in what context. 00:11:33.945 --> 00:11:34.365 Okay. 00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:39.315 It, threw me back and thought, huh, am I doing that? 00:11:39.434 --> 00:11:40.695 And I clearly was not. 00:11:40.754 --> 00:11:41.865 I'm trying to control it. 00:11:41.894 --> 00:11:42.615 What did he say to 00:11:42.615 --> 00:11:42.794 you? 00:11:42.794 --> 00:11:44.504 Just to re repeat it one more time? 00:11:44.595 --> 00:11:44.715 There's 00:11:44.975 --> 00:11:49.934 a difference between declaring Jesus Lord and allowing him to Lord over your life, huh? 00:11:51.674 --> 00:11:52.184 Yeah. 00:11:54.044 --> 00:11:57.705 So, it just threw me back in my chair of, so tell me that moment 00:11:57.705 --> 00:12:06.434 when you were, where you, when you were there now, that 2004, 2005, that moment when it was like, okay, I'm stepping over the line. 00:12:07.695 --> 00:12:07.875 Yeah. 00:12:08.325 --> 00:12:17.789 I was I was laying in bed and having this anxiety attack around, I have no idea what to do next. 00:12:17.820 --> 00:12:18.330 I have no idea. 00:12:18.330 --> 00:12:22.799 After everything I've tried and I'm a doer, I'm a type A, I'm a driver. 00:12:23.220 --> 00:12:25.110 I I've been always, been very entrepreneurial. 00:12:25.379 --> 00:12:26.039 There's a problem. 00:12:26.039 --> 00:12:29.309 I'm gonna go fix the problem, heads down, I work hard. 00:12:29.309 --> 00:12:29.759 All of that. 00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:30.750 And nothing was working. 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:32.009 It was a wilderness walk. 00:12:33.090 --> 00:12:33.750 It's, and when 00:12:33.750 --> 00:12:37.080 you say you had an anxiety attack, and I appreciate you sharing that. 00:12:37.110 --> 00:12:39.120 I think that's something that we skip over. 00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:40.799 That's, that shows the 00:12:40.860 --> 00:12:41.519 depth of it. 00:12:42.149 --> 00:12:42.419 Yeah. 00:12:42.419 --> 00:12:47.700 And so I got outta bed and I literally got on my knees and I said you promised the peace. 00:12:48.090 --> 00:12:49.679 That transcends all understanding. 00:12:51.059 --> 00:12:52.080 I need some of that. 00:12:52.875 --> 00:12:54.585 And I need a lot of that. 00:12:54.585 --> 00:13:01.125 And so you can have it you can have all of it cuz clearly my way is not working. 00:13:01.125 --> 00:13:06.855 And just, give me the next right thing to go do and I'll go do that and I'll trust you with the results. 00:13:07.004 --> 00:13:07.965 Just be clear. 00:13:08.024 --> 00:13:08.804 Please, just be clear. 00:13:08.804 --> 00:13:10.424 Don't to me. 00:13:10.429 --> 00:13:14.865 Just make it clear that this is the next right thing that you want me to go do, and I'll go do that. 00:13:16.274 --> 00:13:17.654 And so be careful what you pray for. 00:13:19.700 --> 00:13:20.264 I love that. 00:13:20.264 --> 00:13:31.184 Just be clear because what, struck me then is it's like, God I believe that clarity of communication is important to me and it was something that I always stand by.

00:13:31.815 --> 00:13:34.575 I want you, since you made me clear, you be clear. 00:13:35.565 --> 00:13:37.514 I need to not make sure it's not a Kurt idea, 00:13:37.965 --> 00:13:38.235 right? 00:13:39.674 --> 00:13:40.695 A cur idea. 00:13:40.934 --> 00:13:42.105 Oh, a Kurt idea. 00:13:42.225 --> 00:13:42.975 Oh, a Kurt idea. 00:13:42.975 --> 00:13:43.335 Okay. 00:13:43.514 --> 00:13:43.695 Yeah. 00:13:43.700 --> 00:13:45.195 I want it to be his idea. 00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:46.455 And I'll, go do that. 00:13:46.634 --> 00:13:49.904 And that serves me, that serves my family, my wife and my marriage. 00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:51.720 My career. 00:13:51.809 --> 00:13:52.620 Four 10 Bridge. 00:13:52.620 --> 00:13:53.580 It served us really well. 00:13:54.570 --> 00:13:55.049 There are times 00:13:55.200 --> 00:14:03.840 Did you get to a point though, Kurt, where you said when you were in this D desert walk, like right after that, did some answer come peace 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:05.460 came almost 00:14:05.460 --> 00:14:06.029 immediately. 00:14:06.450 --> 00:14:07.529 I was the next morning. 00:14:07.649 --> 00:14:08.100 Peace came 00:14:08.105 --> 00:14:08.610 upon you. 00:14:08.615 --> 00:14:08.990 Yeah. 00:14:09.269 --> 00:14:12.419 I woke up the next morning and I'm like, huh, this is weird. 00:14:13.139 --> 00:14:13.320 I don't, 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:16.080 but you still don't have a business or the business is still troubled. 00:14:16.085 --> 00:14:17.399 You still have a wife and kids. 00:14:17.399 --> 00:14:19.169 You still have all these responsibilities. 00:14:19.409 --> 00:14:23.639 I still have a dumpster fire of debt and okay. 00:14:23.914 --> 00:14:26.850 How to make a living and all, of that still swirling around. 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:29.070 But there was a confidence, a peace. 00:14:29.250 --> 00:14:34.169 It's, and again, I, it when, he says it transcends all understanding, it transcends my understanding. 00:14:34.169 --> 00:14:35.460 I'm just a guy trying to do, so 00:14:35.460 --> 00:14:35.970 where did it go with it? 00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:40.139 This new peaceful, Kurt, where does this new 00:14:40.529 --> 00:14:41.070 peaceful Kurt go? 00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:43.169 I got up went, back to work. 00:14:43.289 --> 00:14:46.559 Did not, much changed on your day-to-day basis, but then okay. 00:14:47.399 --> 00:14:52.649 Shortly after that my buddy Dave and his family came over to tell us about their trip to Uganda. 00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:54.240 That's what it's on. 00:14:54.269 --> 00:14:54.659 Okay? 00:14:54.809 --> 00:14:57.960 So that next morning in my quiet house kinda push. 00:14:57.960 --> 00:14:58.200 That's 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:01.679 helpful because what we've talked about puts the rest of this in perspective. 00:15:03.090 --> 00:15:03.629 Yeah, I understand. 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:15.179 So in our, my next, that next morning after that dessert and coffee and seeing that, those photos of that school building I was praying and God loves it when Charlie, when we negotiate with him. 00:15:17.100 --> 00:15:18.299 never did that before. 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:19.320 Never did that before. 00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:20.490 So tell me how you did it. 00:15:20.490 --> 00:15:20.759 Okay. 00:15:20.764 --> 00:15:21.149 I said, 00:15:21.149 --> 00:15:31.889 listen, I'll tell you what I'm gonna do for you, I'm gonna as soon as I get my, career back on track, start making some money again, get my kids back in private school, get this debt paid off. 00:15:32.019 --> 00:15:38.759 As soon as I write this dumpster fire of a ship that is currently my life, I'm gonna go over there and I'm gonna build those kids a brick building. 00:15:40.110 --> 00:15:46.289 And I, immediately the heavens didn't open in voices and trumpets and note, it was just, it was a clear. 00:15:47.024 --> 00:15:56.684 Undeniable conviction that I had it backward, that I should go serve him and his kingdom first, and the rest of this stuff, he'll walk with me through that. 00:15:56.690 --> 00:15:59.325 Much of it is to my own making, but he'll walk with me through that. 00:15:59.325 --> 00:16:08.174 But I should serve him and his kingdom first, and and the rest will not necessarily take care of itself, but the rest is, secondary. 00:16:09.284 --> 00:16:11.355 And so that was an immediate conviction. 00:16:11.355 --> 00:16:14.894 One of those defining moments that I talk about in my book where, so 00:16:14.894 --> 00:16:15.434 what was this? 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:21.644 Is this where God actually said after you did the negotiation and tried to cut the deal, you heard that, oh, come on. 00:16:23.169 --> 00:16:23.721 Do you know who 00:16:23.725 --> 00:16:24.179 God is? 00:16:24.750 --> 00:16:26.120 I heard you got it Backward, 00:16:26.340 --> 00:16:26.820 pal. 00:16:26.970 --> 00:16:30.360 That's what Oh, he ended it with pal? 00:16:30.450 --> 00:16:30.870 I think so. 00:16:30.870 --> 00:16:34.019 I don't know if that's true, but that's, maybe that's a poetic license. 00:16:34.019 --> 00:16:36.879 But no, you got it backward. 00:16:36.940 --> 00:16:37.919 You got it backward. 00:16:37.950 --> 00:16:41.250 And I knew I had it backward and I was convicted that I had it backward. 00:16:41.254 --> 00:16:43.120 There was no denying that I had it attack. 00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:43.320 Yeah. 00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:44.100 But then it almost lays 00:16:44.100 --> 00:16:45.029 it all back on you. 00:16:45.029 --> 00:16:49.110 It seems like aren't you gonna drag me out of this thing? 00:16:49.769 --> 00:16:57.629 But see, that's the beauty for me, that's the beauty again, just for me of, my walk. 00:16:58.860 --> 00:17:05.400 Where, in, again, in times of confusion, times of chaos, times of conflict, whatever it might be. 00:17:05.549 --> 00:17:06.599 Just do the next right thing. 00:17:06.599 --> 00:17:19.890 I had no idea how to go do the next right thing, but what's the next right thing to go if he's laying on my

heart that I should go build a brick building in the middle of nowhere, Uganda for these kids, which sounds really weird even when I, say it out loud. 00:17:20.505 --> 00:17:27.434 Just take the next right step, which was I gotta go have a conversation with Erica about this. 00:17:27.605 --> 00:17:28.095 Yeah. 00:17:29.204 --> 00:17:30.765 which is a fascinating conversation. 00:17:30.765 --> 00:17:33.494 She's gonna listen to this and she goes, yeah, I'm gonna remember that conversation. 00:17:33.795 --> 00:17:35.295 Hey honey, I was in my prayer time this morning. 00:17:35.494 --> 00:17:36.105 Tell us about it. 00:17:36.555 --> 00:17:36.795 Yeah. 00:17:38.204 --> 00:17:41.204 It was very difficult time for her. 00:17:41.204 --> 00:17:41.695 What'd you say? 00:17:41.701 --> 00:17:41.924 What? 00:17:41.924 --> 00:17:42.105 Yeah. 00:17:42.105 --> 00:17:44.384 So you're in this difficult time economically, right? 00:17:44.654 --> 00:17:48.585 Like you say, it's a dumpster fire for the family, in effect you and the family. 00:17:49.444 --> 00:17:52.634 What, tell me how you approached her on this. 00:17:52.634 --> 00:17:55.365 Tell me what that convers we've, 00:17:55.365 --> 00:17:56.355 the details of it a bit. 00:17:56.355 --> 00:18:00.855 If you could, we've been talking for a few minutes, and so you can already know that I'm a very direct guy. 00:18:01.664 --> 00:18:03.434 I don't have a lot of words to share. 00:18:03.674 --> 00:18:06.464 I've guys say God's gifted me with a limited vocabulary. 00:18:07.244 --> 00:18:14.295 And I told her what happened and that I feel like I'm supposed to go do that. 00:18:14.295 --> 00:18:17.275 I think I'm supposed to go help those kids. 00:18:18.555 --> 00:18:20.474 Build a brick building for their school. 00:18:22.605 --> 00:18:28.634 And she processed that over a I don't know, hours, days, whatever. 00:18:28.904 --> 00:18:30.464 Cuz it just, it wouldn't go away. 00:18:30.464 --> 00:18:34.424 This isn't a you have this defining moment in your office. 00:18:34.424 --> 00:18:37.934 You run upstairs, grab a cup of coffee and tell your wife, Hey, this is what we're gonna go do. 00:18:37.964 --> 00:18:38.805 No, it wasn't that. 00:18:39.555 --> 00:18:40.575 It was a process. 00:18:41.174 --> 00:18:44.394 And I gotta tell you when you first told her, what was her reaction? 00:18:44.654 --> 00:18:55.605 I'm I'm, married to a woman who at that time was in her own faith, walk her own challenging time, and she has her own testimony and her own story through all of that. 00:18:56.654 --> 00:18:57.615 It's very interesting. 00:18:57.615 --> 00:19:07.365 One of the things that we always talk about let me intro interrupt you, because I see this now with my kids who are now turning 40 and haven't been through this. 00:19:07.724 --> 00:19:11.444 We, we often think of this midlife crisis as only for men. 00:19:12.525 --> 00:19:13.005 Yeah. 00:19:13.454 --> 00:19:19.664 And it's not I think she it's like you said, you're talking about Erica, she was going through the same, a lot of the 00:19:19.664 --> 00:19:20.535 same thing here. 00:19:20.805 --> 00:19:21.015 Yeah. 00:19:21.105 --> 00:19:24.224 I don't know if it was midlife crisis, but it was a crisis of faith. 00:19:24.255 --> 00:19:26.474 It was a not crisis of faith. 00:19:26.505 --> 00:19:30.015 It was a what are you, she's amazing. 00:19:30.765 --> 00:19:32.295 She's what are you teaching me here? 00:19:32.954 --> 00:19:42.555 And she would, in prayer in the word, she listens to a, she just listened to a lot of tapes at the time, videos at the time. 00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:44.414 A lot of things were influencing her. 00:19:44.414 --> 00:19:47.924 And she was on her walk trying to figure out, what are you trying to teach me? 00:19:48.825 --> 00:19:57.375 Because we made a commitment very ear early on when we I would say, made this conscious decision to put God first in our marriage. 00:19:58.994 --> 00:20:00.045 It's the old triangle, right? 00:20:00.075 --> 00:20:01.755 The old pyramid God's on top. 00:20:01.755 --> 00:20:03.855 We're over here and we're gonna put hymns in the center. 00:20:04.785 --> 00:20:11.730 And I, would think her testimony was her walk of understanding that I wasn't, Responsible for her happiness. 00:20:11.730 --> 00:20:13.319 She would look to me for those kind of things. 00:20:13.319 --> 00:20:15.029 And we looked to God for that fulfillment. 00:20:15.029 --> 00:20:17.880 We looked for that God to be front and center in our marriage, in our family. 00:20:18.210 --> 00:20:18.220 That's, 00:20:18.359 --> 00:20:19.349 how long ago was that? 00:20:20.789 --> 00:20:23.009 How old, how many years were you married at that time? 00:20:23.009 --> 00:20:23.220 Say 00:20:23.910 --> 00:20:25.589 first three or four years. 00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:26.339 Oh, early. 00:20:26.369 --> 00:20:26.730 Okay. 00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:27.809 Early, on. 00:20:27.869 --> 00:20:28.259 Okay. 00:20:28.829 --> 00:20:37.019 So she so she said when it came to the school I said I don't know, I don't know what I'm supposed to go do, but I'm supposed to go do that. 00:20:37.019 --> 00:20:37.859 I don't know how to go do that. 00:20:37.859 --> 00:20:40.049 She says, start raising a little bit of money. 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:44.190 How much does it cost to build a big really? 00:20:44.444 --> 00:20:44.880 I, don't know. 00:20:45.539 --> 00:20:49.559 And we started just, again, it gets, it's just doing the next right thing. 00:20:50.704 --> 00:20:55.380 Have you had to raise the money also for the airfare and hotels or whatever the heck else? 00:20:55.380 --> 00:20:57.660 You, in other words, your personal expenses to get 00:20:57.660 --> 00:20:58.049 over there? 00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:03.509 We did and we had a bunch, we had a front bunch of frequent flyer miles at the time cuz I was coming outta my business. 00:21:03.509 --> 00:21:08.559 So I had a lot of those and, but we had to raise that and we had to raise money

for the school and a water well and. 00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:15.059 Books and for the school we and so God was very faithful through that, but it took a long time to raise it. 00:21:15.059 --> 00:21:19.079 It cl took close to 18 months for us to raise$10,000 just for the school. 00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:19.740 No kidding. 00:21:19.890 --> 00:21:20.009 Yeah. 00:21:20.009 --> 00:21:21.660 I should have prayed for more wealthy friends. 00:21:22.140 --> 00:21:23.190 What was your pitch? 00:21:25.170 --> 00:21:27.240 Because you're this direct marketing guy, right? 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:28.500 Yeah. 00:21:30.930 --> 00:21:34.740 Just the truth, just the reality of it. 00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:35.849 I think I'm need to go do this. 00:21:36.150 --> 00:21:37.079 Here's, the need. 00:21:38.250 --> 00:21:39.480 And it was very needs focused. 00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:42.720 Here's the need, here's the, what we're trying to accomplish. 00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:44.250 I feel like I'm supposed to go do that. 00:21:44.279 --> 00:21:44.819 Can you help? 00:21:45.390 --> 00:21:54.059 And did you ask people for a certain amount of money when you did the ask or did you just say anything would work and you wound up with$50 donations? 00:21:54.180 --> 00:21:54.900 I was completely 00:21:54.900 --> 00:21:56.309 out of my depth there. 00:21:56.315 --> 00:21:57.690 I had never done this before. 00:21:57.690 --> 00:21:59.160 I had never asked people for money. 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:02.490 We had little events. 00:22:02.494 --> 00:22:07.150 We, some people had money trickled in when they saw my heart. 00:22:08.190 --> 00:22:09.480 But it took a long time. 00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:20.039 And one of the stories that you'll find interesting here is I put it in the book, but it we had a little dinner at our house at the ti so I had to go get a job. 00:22:20.220 --> 00:22:24.599 And let's not forget that I don't feel like I make a very good employee. 00:22:24.599 --> 00:22:26.819 That's why I've always wanted to be entrepreneurial in my life. 00:22:27.269 --> 00:22:28.529 So I had to go get a job at this point. 00:22:28.529 --> 00:22:36.269 And one of the ladies that worked for me at the time, her husband was a chef, and she says, Kurt, I'll and she was a believer and she says, Kurt I'll, talk to my husband. 00:22:36.269 --> 00:22:38.759 He'll come and cook your cook a really nice meal. 00:22:38.765 --> 00:22:44.250 You buy this stuff, he'll cook a really nice meal and you can invite people and you can do a little fundraiser in your home. 00:22:44.250 --> 00:22:45.329 And I thought that's a great idea. 00:22:45.329 --> 00:22:45.900 So we did that. 00:22:46.454 --> 00:22:49.125 Ah, and he came in and did a great meal. 00:22:49.125 --> 00:22:56.265 A bunch of friends came over, 20 or 30 friends came over in our home and we had this meal and gosh, people stayed really late. 00:22:56.269 --> 00:22:57.285 These are our friends of ours. 00:22:57.285 --> 00:23:03.825 And so I remember it was

a Saturday night and one of the families didn't leave until two in the morning, one in the morning, something like that. 00:23:04.095 --> 00:23:04.365 Wow. 00:23:04.484 --> 00:23:09.734 And got up the next morning and I woke up and we were late for church and everybody sound asleep. 00:23:09.734 --> 00:23:10.394 The kids are asleep. 00:23:10.394 --> 00:23:11.325 Erica's exhausted. 00:23:11.474 --> 00:23:18.944 So I just let them sleep and I went downstairs and I was just curious how much, how wonder how much we raised? 00:23:19.664 --> 00:23:24.164 And I'm a, I'm an accountant by education finance guy, and so I'm a spreadsheet guy. 00:23:24.164 --> 00:23:25.664 And so I had two spreadsheets. 00:23:27.015 --> 00:23:34.575 One was of every person that had donated anything to this adventure that we were in because I wanted to thank them personally after we had completed. 00:23:35.384 --> 00:23:46.365 And so I went and looked at all the checks that we had gotten the night before and I added them, the spreadsheet and I added'em all up and it came out to like$27,183 or something like that from that one dinner. 00:23:46.994 --> 00:23:49.335 Over the course of time, over the last months, okay. 00:23:49.545 --> 00:23:52.934 Which was way more than we had originally targeted. 00:23:52.940 --> 00:24:03.045 So now we could do a water project, now we can do some textbooks, we can do all these things, but at another spree spreadsheet of all the costs that we were gonna need for a variety of things to go do this project. 00:24:03.795 --> 00:24:09.974 And it was all in Ugandan shillings So I had to go look for an exchange rate for an exa Ugandan shillings. 00:24:09.974 --> 00:24:14.994 So I was adding it up and there was an exchange rate at the time it's a eight decimals, right? 00:24:15.255 --> 00:24:20.805 And so I popped that in there and it came out to$27,183 and 35. 00:24:22.140 --> 00:24:28.049 it was thir literally 35 cents difference than what I needed versus what we had received. 00:24:28.529 --> 00:24:48.059 And so I did what any good Christian will do as I went and I reran the numbers, And when I realized that it was exactly the same, I went upstairs and woke up Eric, up as Eric up, and I said, honey you gotta see this cuz this is just affirmation that we are doing the next right thing. 00:24:48.420 --> 00:24:53.190 We're, on this path and we're just gonna continue on this path and trust him with the results. 00:24:53.194 --> 00:25:01.950 And so we that's a, one of those God's stories along the way that is hard for some people to believe, but it's it's not coincidence. 00:25:01.954 --> 00:25:02.519 It just isn't. 00:25:03.089 --> 00:25:06.029 And it's it's funny, we've all heard stories like that. 00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:07.500 It was just the right amount. 00:25:07.529 --> 00:25:15.000 That's just incredible when you invited these people and this is just a learning, when you invited those 30 some odd friends to this dinner. 00:25:15.809 --> 00:25:19.019 did they did that include non-Christians as well as Christians? 00:25:19.049 --> 00:25:19.140 Oh, yeah. 00:25:19.140 --> 00:25:20.309 Or were they were, it did. 00:25:20.380 --> 00:25:20.890 Oh yeah. 00:25:20.900 --> 00:25:21.369 Oh yeah. 00:25:21.369 --> 00:25:21.750 And every, 00:25:21.750 --> 00:25:23.250 did everybody participate? 00:25:23.730 --> 00:25:24.029 Pretty much? 00:25:24.630 --> 00:25:25.349 Yeah, everybody did. 00:25:26.069 --> 00:25:26.700 So it wasn't a 00:25:26.700 --> 00:25:27.930 Christian meeting? 00:25:28.259 --> 00:25:34.950 No, this really was, this is, we're focused on helping build this school and this com and help develop this community. 00:25:35.220 --> 00:25:40.079 In my younger day, I was a pretty good tennis player, so I was in a tennis league and doubles leagues and all that. 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:42.750 And so these are just our neighborhood friends, our tennis friends. 00:25:42.869 --> 00:25:43.559 Oh, that's great. 00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:44.099 School. 00:25:44.099 --> 00:25:49.289 Just, we just gathered as many people as wanted to, come and hear what we were trying to go do. 00:25:49.319 --> 00:25:50.880 And yeah. 00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:51.119 So now 00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:57.809 you got this$27,000 or what would be close to a billion Uganda shillings. 00:25:57.839 --> 00:25:58.170 Okay. 00:25:58.500 --> 00:26:01.890 So whatever the number is, what is what was the next 00:26:01.890 --> 00:26:02.160 step? 00:26:03.690 --> 00:26:07.589 I decided that I was done raising money and I'm just gonna go do it. 00:26:08.674 --> 00:26:09.750 We needed to build this building. 00:26:09.750 --> 00:26:14.460 I set I, promised that I would go build the building and so we set out to do that. 00:26:14.460 --> 00:26:26.640 And so that was in the sep we had that dinner in September and we put dates on the books to go between Christmas, the Christmas break, Christmas, new Year break and started making the plans to go do all that. 00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:33.420 And we got the airfares and we had to figure out what the ministry on the gown ground that we were helping. 00:26:33.424 --> 00:26:35.099 They could help us with hotels and all of that. 00:26:35.190 --> 00:26:37.529 And we just put all the things in place to go. 00:26:38.279 --> 00:26:53.039 And the day after Christmas in 2000, and I guess that was five through my three kids at the time, and Eric and I on a plane, my buddy Dave, who went on that first trip, he went with us and we traveled to Uganda. 00:26:53.099 --> 00:26:55.829 And our family thinks we're crazy. 00:26:56.730 --> 00:27:00.059 Our generation, Charlie what do you think about when you think about Uganda? 00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:01.260 You think about EDM e. 00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:02.579 Absolutely. 00:27:02.579 --> 00:27:02.849 Yeah. 00:27:02.910 --> 00:27:06.410 And people listening, young people, yeah. 00:27:06.414 --> 00:27:10.470 You think about these Israelis surrounding the plane right.

00:27:10.470 --> 00:27:11.700 At Atten Bay, at 00:27:11.700 --> 00:27:14.730 TE Airport, and back then, that's what we thought about. 00:27:14.730 --> 00:27:16.710 That's still what our generation thinks about. 00:27:16.740 --> 00:27:27.329 Anyway, so we went and got on the ground and after a few days of building this building, making really every mistake, 00:27:27.450 --> 00:27:30.569 and this is where your, is this where your book actually starts? 00:27:31.109 --> 00:27:31.859 Yeah, pretty much. 00:27:31.859 --> 00:27:37.170 This is where you enter and you're, I love it where you stay there's all these bucks flying around. 00:27:37.170 --> 00:27:38.279 We're in, TE airport. 00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:44.190 This guys with AK 47 s around us, and I'm here with my wife and kids, and I'm like, what did I just do? 00:27:44.589 --> 00:27:44.910 Okay. 00:27:44.940 --> 00:27:45.720 I just love that. 00:27:46.289 --> 00:27:46.829 What have I done? 00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:51.089 I've had that exact same feeling when I flew into that exact same airport. 00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:51.390 Okay. 00:27:52.710 --> 00:27:53.009 Yeah. 00:27:53.099 --> 00:27:54.539 And my kids were 10. 00:27:55.615 --> 00:27:55.934 Whatever they were. 00:27:56.115 --> 00:27:56.535 Yeah. 00:27:57.194 --> 00:28:00.345 So what have I done and was what I was thinking. 00:28:00.345 --> 00:28:04.154 And but the people were were wonderful. 00:28:04.184 --> 00:28:10.904 And we arrived in the community and they had already laid the foundation for the building. 00:28:10.910 --> 00:28:11.684 We'd seen that. 00:28:11.684 --> 00:28:13.785 We're just trying to get our, get acclimated. 00:28:13.789 --> 00:28:19.785 But really the point is, that after just a few days I was sitting with Erica at night. 00:28:19.789 --> 00:28:24.315 The kids had gone to sleep and I said what we're doing here is of no moment. 00:28:24.914 --> 00:28:25.964 This, doesn't even matter. 00:28:25.970 --> 00:28:28.875 This is a small drop in a really big bucket. 00:28:28.875 --> 00:28:35.714 My first experience with extreme poverty environments, and I was really frustrated, I was disappointed. 00:28:35.714 --> 00:28:42.585 I thought we were going over there to make a difference for generations with a permanent school building and a water project. 00:28:43.410 --> 00:28:45.480 and the, problems were massive. 00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:53.220 And I had all these questions and again, when you have that, you just do the next right thing, which is to finish the, 00:28:53.220 --> 00:28:55.140 but here's something that, that's different. 00:28:55.410 --> 00:28:57.930 You did something like what you call the next right thing. 00:28:58.440 --> 00:29:03.390 And what most of us, including me in many cases is, was the next Right thing is. 00:29:03.869 --> 00:29:18.599 And when I see that this is the effort that I'm putting out and the time I'm putting in and the money that I'm putting towards this, cause isn't la literally, you call it a, drop in

a bucket it's it's almost to me it became a drop in the ocean. 00:29:19.349 --> 00:29:19.500 Yeah. 00:29:19.714 --> 00:29:20.279 It's what? 00:29:21.269 --> 00:29:27.210 This is so big and such a big issue this poverty is so pervasive. 00:29:27.660 --> 00:29:30.150 There's we have cultural issues. 00:29:30.150 --> 00:29:38.250 You got the poverty, economic issues, you got education issues, you got because we're smart enough, we're business people, we think about all that stuff. 00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:41.819 And I'm like, and I'm laying a brick. 00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:54.630 Or I'm, teaching these people how to become entrepreneurs and of the 500'em standing in front of one of them's paying attention. 00:29:56.309 --> 00:29:57.150 What am I doing? 00:29:58.230 --> 00:30:00.240 Why don't I just go home and do what I do? 00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:03.990 My market, the people I serve, they're Americans. 00:30:03.990 --> 00:30:05.160 I don't know how to do this. 00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:06.210 But you didn't do that? 00:30:06.509 --> 00:30:07.640 No, I didn't. 00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:07.880 Why? 00:30:12.420 --> 00:30:33.210 I, think the, way I'd answer that, Charlie, is I'm not fooling anybody by just going home and continuing to do what I was, doing, because I was convinced that what I was supposed to do was that. 00:30:34.049 --> 00:30:39.960 That I was supposed to I, was where I was supposed to be when I was supposed to be there. 00:30:39.960 --> 00:30:51.839 I had no answers to this problem, but I did have I, was compelled to ask the questions and and there there was no, turning back from it. 00:30:52.410 --> 00:30:54.539 What are you gonna do right when you have a how did 00:30:54.539 --> 00:30:56.160 you know you were supposed to do this? 00:30:56.190 --> 00:30:56.759 When you have a 00:30:56.759 --> 00:30:58.950 defining moment, you're only, you're not, tell 00:30:59.250 --> 00:31:00.210 me about that defining moment. 00:31:00.420 --> 00:31:00.660 That's, you're 00:31:01.009 --> 00:31:04.589 not fooling God in a defining moment and you're only fooling yourself. 00:31:04.595 --> 00:31:17.819 It's between him and and he knows the truth here, and that is that got this problem, I don't understand it, but I am, I cannot get out from inside of me. 00:31:19.829 --> 00:31:22.230 The what's the word? 00:31:22.950 --> 00:31:28.269 The, con I was con compelled the conviction con, conviction to con continue to try to figure it out. 00:31:29.464 --> 00:31:30.779 And so when I came 00:31:30.779 --> 00:31:40.440 back, didn't you have those thoughts though that said if I really start digging on this and trying to figure out this problem, that's like sitting in front of me. 00:31:40.440 --> 00:31:45.480 That's just, it's almost like it has, its it's, nails into you. 00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:46.380 It's gripped you. 00:31:46.619 --> 00:31:47.039 Okay. 00:31:47.069 --> 00:31:48.930 It's not a problem you can shake off. 00:31:48.930 --> 00:31:50.549 It's a tar baby, if you will. 00:31:51.299 --> 00:31:51.859 Didn't you? 00:31:52.470 --> 00:32:02.549 The rationale starts at that point, which is, yeah, but I got a wife and kids and I live in Atlanta, and this would mean that I'm gonna have to come over here a lot. 00:32:03.720 --> 00:32:06.480 Because the problem, I can't solve it long distance. 00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:11.039 I gotta actually get closer to it to understand it so that I can in fact solve it. 00:32:11.730 --> 00:32:12.089 Okay? 00:32:12.089 --> 00:32:13.380 And I can't do it alone. 00:32:13.380 --> 00:32:18.390 That means I'm gonna need money and I'm gonna need people, I'm gonna need cooperation from the people. 00:32:18.690 --> 00:32:22.410 You start, your mind starts going, and that's where, again, it's a second shot to say. 00:32:23.714 --> 00:32:25.184 I can unv now. 00:32:26.535 --> 00:32:26.865 yes. 00:32:26.865 --> 00:32:29.325 See because I rolled it up. 00:32:29.855 --> 00:32:30.375 I, can look ahead. 00:32:30.375 --> 00:32:34.424 I always say there's no such thing as a 40 year old entrepreneur because he knows too much. 00:32:34.845 --> 00:32:36.255 He knows how hard this is. 00:32:36.259 --> 00:32:36.315 Yeah. 00:32:36.555 --> 00:32:37.484 But here you are. 00:32:37.484 --> 00:32:37.875 So what 00:32:37.875 --> 00:32:38.325 happened? 00:32:38.484 --> 00:32:38.974 I don't know. 00:32:39.285 --> 00:32:41.775 I think it's like anything else. 00:32:42.214 --> 00:32:42.914 I, see. 00:32:43.934 --> 00:32:48.825 Not like anything else even when I've started some businesses in the past, I'm trying to solve a problem. 00:32:49.424 --> 00:32:49.845 Yeah. 00:32:50.599 --> 00:32:52.785 I see a problem that's the beginning of entrepreneurship. 00:32:53.055 --> 00:32:55.845 I wanna create a business around that problem. 00:32:55.845 --> 00:32:59.115 If I see a need for that, I can solve. 00:32:59.115 --> 00:33:00.345 I want to go, I wanna go solve that. 00:33:01.694 --> 00:33:09.585 And then it was similar here, except there is this divine issue and I can't run from that. 00:33:11.025 --> 00:33:16.184 Look, you said that you were gonna do the next right thing, and trust me with the results if 00:33:16.184 --> 00:33:19.575 you don't comma, pal, pal. 00:33:19.845 --> 00:33:19.964 Right? 00:33:20.484 --> 00:33:21.174 Love that. 00:33:21.255 --> 00:33:23.335 If you don't, it's on you. 00:33:23.335 --> 00:33:39.914 And I think it's not like I sat here and was, laboring over it a lot because it was clear to me that this was something that had captured my heart and I got a job and I got a, family and I got this dumpster fire that's still raging and I gotta go handle all of that. 00:33:39.914 --> 00:33:47.174 But this is the thing that is really driving me to stay engaged. 00:33:47.204 --> 00:33:58.005 And when I came back became a little bit of a student on this problem because I had too many, I had way more questions but I'll, I would also say that I don't ask you this 00:33:58.005 --> 00:33:58.214 though.

00:33:58.335 --> 00:34:06.734 What was one of the things that struck me in read reading your book is, and I've been dying to ask you this question, when did you. 00:34:07.349 --> 00:34:26.550 You see what's happened is people have defined the problem, these NGOs or these missionary organizations that bring churches in with all their people and everything, just like you got eventually saw that, you saw that schoolhouse that was falling apart, right? 00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:34.469 Those people, they, they've defined the problem and their solution to it is to just go and help. 00:34:35.159 --> 00:34:39.239 And so build the schoolhouse or to do these things, they, that's the solution. 00:34:39.690 --> 00:34:48.360 You looked when you were over there and you said, I don't know that's the problem, and I don't think this is the solution, even if it was the problem, 00:34:49.710 --> 00:34:51.000 I think what I said was we're after, so when 00:34:51.250 --> 00:35:00.239 did you def my question in all that introduction is when did you actually, or how did you get to defining the real problem? 00:35:01.425 --> 00:35:12.465 I, think the questions I was asking over there I thought were the right questions and the world was asking the wrong questions. 00:35:14.715 --> 00:35:16.815 And the questions I was asking 00:35:16.815 --> 00:35:21.344 is why gimme the comparison between the world's questions and then we'll get to your questions. 00:35:22.485 --> 00:35:25.875 The world's, I need to know where we're coming from so that I see what you saw. 00:35:25.994 --> 00:35:26.295 Okay. 00:35:27.135 --> 00:35:30.525 The, world's questions is, are what can I do to go solve that need? 00:35:31.425 --> 00:35:31.454 Okay. 00:35:32.175 --> 00:35:33.315 What can I, go do to. 00:35:34.065 --> 00:35:35.235 Solve that problem. 00:35:35.295 --> 00:35:36.164 That's my question. 00:35:36.164 --> 00:35:40.184 I ans I ask, what can I go, do to solve that school building problem? 00:35:40.414 --> 00:35:45.094 Or that water problem or education problem or whatever the problem is when 00:35:45.094 --> 00:35:49.304 you fell into that, that says the house, the school building's fallen down. 00:35:49.335 --> 00:35:50.864 I know how to build a building. 00:35:51.284 --> 00:35:52.454 I'll go over there and build a building. 00:35:52.905 --> 00:35:54.914 There's a problem that I can go fix. 00:35:55.215 --> 00:35:55.664 Okay, good. 00:35:56.175 --> 00:35:57.974 And I'm gonna feel really good about myself to fix it. 00:35:57.974 --> 00:36:01.184 Don't get wrong, We feel good about ourselves. 00:36:01.784 --> 00:36:03.045 Nothing wrong with that, but 00:36:03.135 --> 00:36:03.525 that's right. 00:36:03.525 --> 00:36:06.914 You come back, you have a party, you show everybody what happened, the before and after. 00:36:07.034 --> 00:36:07.364 I think the 00:36:07.364 --> 00:36:10.875 question, the right question is, what problem are we solving? 00:36:12.795 --> 00:36:29.114 I should have asked what problem am I really looking to go solve and I'm not looking today as four 10 bridges evolved and we continued to probably get more wrong than we get, but we're we're evolving and learning and changing and is we are not looking to solve. 00:36:30.105 --> 00:36:33.974 A water problem, an education problem, an economic development problem, a health problem. 00:36:33.974 --> 00:36:35.414 We're trying to solve a poverty problem. 00:36:36.585 --> 00:36:47.235 And if you're like any business guy, if you're gonna go solve a problem, you better define it because if you don't define it you may be implementing a solution that's solving a completely different problem. 00:36:47.565 --> 00:36:52.485 So it came to me trying to understand what is the real definition of poverty? 00:36:53.054 --> 00:36:54.315 How do you define poverty? 00:36:55.164 --> 00:36:59.474 And if you ask anybody, average person out there, what is poverty? 00:36:59.474 --> 00:37:00.525 How would you define poverty? 00:37:01.034 --> 00:37:07.485 They would give a definition that's rooted in materiality, in finances, in money. 00:37:08.534 --> 00:37:10.695 And I just don't believe that's true. 00:37:11.534 --> 00:37:13.184 There's lots of different kinds of, not lots. 00:37:13.184 --> 00:37:14.625 There's a, there's different kinds of poverty. 00:37:14.625 --> 00:37:23.655 There's spiritual poverty, and there's physi there is material poverty, there's health, poverty, there's relative poverty, all of that. 00:37:24.090 --> 00:37:24.539 But at the end 00:37:24.539 --> 00:37:33.210 of the day, so what you're saying here though is I didn't start with how do I see a need, so how can I help? 00:37:33.510 --> 00:37:40.230 You're saying here you went, you brought it up 10,000 feet, 30,000 feet, saying this is a poverty issue. 00:37:40.710 --> 00:37:43.210 How do what is poverty first? 00:37:43.530 --> 00:37:47.489 And then how do I then address that if I wanna solve it? 00:37:48.420 --> 00:37:48.929 Exactly. 00:37:49.755 --> 00:37:50.054 Exactly. 00:37:51.099 --> 00:37:55.454 So, tell me, bring me along that path on how, you proceeded with that. 00:37:55.994 --> 00:37:56.835 I think it's, this is the 00:37:56.835 --> 00:37:58.125 heart of four 10 Bridge. 00:37:58.184 --> 00:37:58.514 It is. 00:37:58.514 --> 00:37:59.594 It's ab absolutely is. 00:37:59.775 --> 00:38:06.855 I think that it's important for everyone to understand that this has been a thought process has evolved over 16 years. 00:38:06.860 --> 00:38:12.675 And I'm just a I'm a child in this space compared to people that have been studying it for years and years. 00:38:12.675 --> 00:38:15.855 But I'm a blue collar, get it done kind of guy. 00:38:16.215 --> 00:38:16.574 I'm not, yeah. 00:38:17.744 --> 00:38:21.344 And I don't wanna, I don't wanna read or write a bunch of white papers on it. 00:38:21.344 --> 00:38:22.784 I'm wanna go, I'm gonna go, you're 00:38:23.135 --> 00:38:23.594 a pragmatist. 00:38:23.655 --> 00:38:23.925

There's 00:38:23.929 --> 00:38:24.764 no doubt about it. 00:38:26.204 --> 00:38:38.025 When I was over there the first time, I was, the way I would say it, I think I, I said it in my head and I was asking Erica these questions like, why do, why are, why do these people have the perspectives that they have? 00:38:38.054 --> 00:38:40.304 Why are the men sitting around doing nothing? 00:38:40.844 --> 00:38:42.465 Why are the women doing everything? 00:38:42.465 --> 00:38:47.775 Where are the, where's the community here and helping us build this building? 00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:56.579 I don't understand why I don't understand which is a statement, but this is a big 00:38:56.579 --> 00:39:11.460 one for you because one of them was, and you show it in the early in the book, is you say, why am I working on putting these, laying all these bricks, and I have all these guys, these community guys, their community is sitting there 00:39:11.960 --> 00:39:12.539 watching me, right? 00:39:13.364 --> 00:39:17.880 So again, it comes back to asking the wrong questions and start asking the right questions. 00:39:17.880 --> 00:39:25.230 And I think that's the right question, but that's a question that I asked, which means that if I'm gonna go make a difference, I've gotta go solve that problem. 00:39:25.500 --> 00:39:31.289 How do I make the community to go solve their own problems as opposed to looking to outsiders to come in and solve them for them? 00:39:31.530 --> 00:39:31.679 So 00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:36.000 the need then, in that case, I would say the need's, not the in the problem. 00:39:36.059 --> 00:39:38.909 The need isn't the, school building needs to be built. 00:39:39.119 --> 00:39:39.269 Nope. 00:39:39.269 --> 00:39:45.599 The need is Why, are the men sitting on the wall and they're not doing anything right? 00:39:45.989 --> 00:39:46.320 Okay. 00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:49.559 So had the need being, they need to be engaged. 00:39:50.039 --> 00:39:52.289 They need to care about their community more than 00:39:52.289 --> 00:39:52.679 I do. 00:39:53.250 --> 00:39:54.000 And why don't they? 00:39:54.429 --> 00:39:58.440 Yeah, And why don't they, and they're living in poverty. 00:39:58.769 --> 00:39:59.369 What's the thing? 00:39:59.639 --> 00:40:00.449 Isn't it obvious? 00:40:00.449 --> 00:40:01.469 Shouldn't they just do 00:40:01.469 --> 00:40:01.980 something? 00:40:02.250 --> 00:40:04.679 That's where it gets really messy because culture matters. 00:40:05.159 --> 00:40:05.849 People matter. 00:40:05.849 --> 00:40:07.230 Communities are all different. 00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:10.199 They're, 00:40:10.230 --> 00:40:15.539 now you're starting to get to me about how big this is and how many threads it has when you start pulling 00:40:15.539 --> 00:40:15.659 on 00:40:15.664 --> 00:40:15.780 it. 00:40:16.139 --> 00:40:17.610 But it really only has one thread. 00:40:17.940 --> 00:40:18.809 Ah, okay. 00:40:18.809 --> 00:40:25.230 This is an oversimplification and there's gonna be some mythologist experts that may listen to me one day and go, that guy's all full of hot air. 00:40:25.230 --> 00:40:32.099 But in Kurt's humble opinion, there is one thread, and that one thread is worldview. 00:40:33.960 --> 00:40:41.130 Worldview is the conversation we're having in our head, the story we're telling ourselves to be true. 00:40:41.519 --> 00:40:44.940 The, our perspectives and our, we all have a worldview. 00:40:44.945 --> 00:40:49.679 You have, when I have one and every one of our worldviews drive the choices that we make. 00:40:51.215 --> 00:40:55.289 And those choices are gonna drive the actions we take or don't take. 00:40:55.920 --> 00:41:09.809 And what I've seen and learned over the last, almost now 17 years, is that worldview shift, the choices that people make, have more to do with whether or not a group of people will thrive or live in deprivation than anything else. 00:41:10.619 --> 00:41:18.750 And so when, you, so that's, the thread, that's the thing that we are trying to impact and how you do that. 00:41:18.750 --> 00:41:23.309 Super complicated But at the end of the day, anything to change somebody's 00:41:23.460 --> 00:41:31.440 worldview, I'm sorry to change someone's worldview in the midst of a community. 00:41:32.429 --> 00:41:35.775 or even a nation that shares that worldview. 00:41:37.094 --> 00:41:39.434 That kind of puts it in perspective. 00:41:39.465 --> 00:41:49.664 You mean I was there in Uganda and I was in the minority on my worldview, and they were in the super majority. 00:41:50.385 --> 00:41:53.545 So how do you, how, what how do you 00:41:53.824 --> 00:41:54.135 approach this? 00:41:57.704 --> 00:42:01.664 First of all why did you, get convicted that was it? 00:42:03.230 --> 00:42:05.655 That was the thread that was the problem. 00:42:05.655 --> 00:42:11.835 This worldview, when I went all the way down to the very, very foundation of it all, that's what we 00:42:11.835 --> 00:42:12.554 gotta change. 00:42:12.735 --> 00:42:19.184 So it's the, progression of that Charlie was, is that over there I was saying at the time, feels like a lifetime ago. 00:42:19.190 --> 00:42:21.764 You know what, why do they have this perspective that they have? 00:42:21.945 --> 00:42:23.175 Why do they think this is okay? 00:42:24.255 --> 00:42:27.014 Why aren't they doing more to solve their own problems? 00:42:27.045 --> 00:42:36.179 And it's a, in a classic kind of arrogant, American way and American tone, which I'm not proud of, but it is our culture too, right? 00:42:36.809 --> 00:42:38.159 See a problem, solve a problem. 00:42:38.164 --> 00:42:52.050 And that evolved over time to reading and learning and listening to people who had, who were able to describe that more accurately. 00:42:52.199 --> 00:42:58.860 And the thing, the book that really changed my view on it was a book by Daryl Miller called discipling Nations. 00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:06.510 And I read Discipling Nations and the, words just

jumped off the page to me and I quote a lot of it. 00:43:06.510 --> 00:43:08.940 And my book, Dar Darrell endorsed my book. 00:43:08.940 --> 00:43:12.539 He's anyway, so 00:43:12.989 --> 00:43:15.090 it was just, what's the author's name again, just to have it? 00:43:15.094 --> 00:43:15.809 Little Darrow. 00:43:16.019 --> 00:43:16.469 D a 00:43:16.710 --> 00:43:17.610 r o w. 00:43:18.150 --> 00:43:18.480 Darrow. 00:43:18.539 --> 00:43:19.889 Darrow Miller. 00:43:20.340 --> 00:43:20.699 Miller. 00:43:20.730 --> 00:43:21.090 Okay. 00:43:22.619 --> 00:43:26.300 And that book just was the Bidens, how did you get that book? 00:43:27.400 --> 00:43:30.510 I don't I don't even know who told me about it. 00:43:31.139 --> 00:43:31.559 I can't even 00:43:31.559 --> 00:43:31.889 remember. 00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:39.090 But I read, it's probably one of these, you were probably talking about what you're seeing and the difficulty, what you were wrestling with, and they said, oh, you should read what 00:43:39.420 --> 00:43:40.050 Miller's book. 00:43:41.429 --> 00:43:43.289 And it's, 30 years old at this point. 00:43:43.530 --> 00:43:44.219 It's not a new book. 00:43:44.219 --> 00:43:44.489 Okay. 00:43:44.579 --> 00:44:12.090 I think the difference is, I think the distinctive here for me, for Four 10 Bridge for all the, a lot of other organizations trying to work in this space is, that I, want I, I feel like the complexity in what we do after you define the problem properly, is in executing solutions and staying on track with discipline inside some strategic guardrails that keep you focused. 00:44:12.090 --> 00:44:17.219 Because in our space, it's highly emotional, especially when it comes to children. 00:44:17.730 --> 00:44:24.480 And there is this sense, there is this myth I, call it a myth, is that anything that we do for the poor must be a good thing. 00:44:25.769 --> 00:44:26.849 And I disagree with that. 00:44:27.630 --> 00:44:36.119 And so we are trying to put things in place that are highly disciplined, moving toward outcomes, not process. 00:44:36.300 --> 00:44:40.650 We're trying to achieve specific measurable outcomes in the communities where we work. 00:44:41.940 --> 00:44:44.190 Not measuring activity, but those outcomes. 00:44:44.190 --> 00:44:53.760 And those outcomes all have to be driving people toward a Christian biblical worldview that helps them understand that one, God loves them. 00:44:53.789 --> 00:44:55.679 They were created in his image. 00:44:56.099 --> 00:44:58.440 They have, they were created for a purpose. 00:44:58.440 --> 00:45:00.989 They're forgiven, and therefore they should be forgivers. 00:45:01.469 --> 00:45:02.909 And they have responsibilities. 00:45:02.909 --> 00:45:03.989 They have responsibilities. 00:45:03.989 --> 00:45:11.579 God calls us to have responsibilities, to be godly parents and godly spouses, and godly school teachers, godly business owners, godly leaders, all of that. 00:45:11.585 --> 00:45:19.514 And when all

of that happens in one place they will do more to solve their extreme poverty problem without us, than they will with us. 00:45:19.514 --> 00:45:34.454 And we can graduate them and move on knowing that they are and have put things in place where their mindset has changed, their worldview has shifted where they say before four 10 Bridge came in we had a, poverty of the mind. 00:45:34.815 --> 00:45:35.625 This is what they say to me. 00:45:35.684 --> 00:45:36.434 They have poverty. 00:45:36.465 --> 00:45:37.605 We have poverty of the mind. 00:45:38.474 --> 00:45:43.815 You taught us that God has given us everything that we need to change the quality of our lives. 00:45:44.144 --> 00:45:46.005 And we have to start with what we have. 00:45:46.034 --> 00:45:49.844 We have to stop looking to outsiders to solve our problems. 00:45:50.355 --> 00:45:51.914 We can solve our own problems here. 00:45:52.605 --> 00:45:55.635 And do they have the capacity to solve their own problems? 00:45:56.385 --> 00:45:58.244 They may and they may not. 00:45:58.275 --> 00:46:07.815 And so our job is to help lift their capacity, to help them go further, faster, and shift, help them shift their worldview from whatever it is today to a Christian biblical worldview. 00:46:07.815 --> 00:46:10.844 And when that happens, man, that's a beautiful thing, and that's what's happened in. 00:46:11.650 --> 00:46:16.019 13 communities so far, and on, its way and many others now. 00:46:16.019 --> 00:46:20.039 It doesn't work everywhere, but it, does work and it's a beautiful thing when it does. 00:46:20.820 --> 00:46:21.090 So 00:46:21.449 --> 00:46:26.880 The, worldview it, came, it became clear to you. 00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:37.559 I'm trying to tell you back what I heard is this worldview that you saw that they had was this, worldview of scarcity. 00:46:38.789 --> 00:46:43.530 I got put in a, I got, I'm born into a very awful situation. 00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:46.019 This, poverty, if you will. 00:46:46.050 --> 00:46:47.880 And it's just where I am. 00:46:48.210 --> 00:46:51.659 If anybody comes in and they give me money or they help me out, great. 00:46:52.010 --> 00:46:54.179 But there's nothing I can do about it. 00:46:55.170 --> 00:46:55.349 Yeah. 00:46:55.349 --> 00:46:58.170 I would say on your side, you're saying if you only. 00:47:00.224 --> 00:47:01.304 Jesus Christ. 00:47:01.514 --> 00:47:02.175 Okay? 00:47:02.385 --> 00:47:03.704 The gospel of Jesus Christ. 00:47:03.704 --> 00:47:13.644 If he, which would give you this, direct line to understand God better and all the resources that are available, we have a God of tremendous capacity and resources. 00:47:16.215 --> 00:47:19.574 you would, your view of life, of your life would completely change. 00:47:19.784 --> 00:47:21.614 And if it did, everything 00:47:21.619 --> 00:47:22.184 would change. 00:47:22.635 --> 00:47:23.925 I might say it a little bit different. 00:47:24.434 --> 00:47:25.244 Say it different for me. 00:47:25.585

--> 00:47:30.255 Our, in our communities where we work, in the world, we're working in, reached areas of the world. 00:47:30.284 --> 00:47:33.704 They have heard the gospel, they know Jesus. 00:47:35.085 --> 00:47:41.775 But like me, I think they have declared Jesus Lord, but they haven't allowed him to Lord over their life. 00:47:41.775 --> 00:47:53.835 They're not looking to move to be more Christ-like in their, everyday life and how they interact with their neighbors and how they interact with their spouses and. 00:47:54.239 --> 00:47:58.409 Where does tradition and culture collide with God's word? 00:47:58.829 --> 00:47:59.909 We have the same issue over here. 00:47:59.909 --> 00:48:01.050 It's everywhere in the world, right? 00:48:01.590 --> 00:48:08.519 But tradition culture, what we know to we or think to be true, what the world is telling us. 00:48:08.909 --> 00:48:11.250 Collides with God's word. 00:48:11.849 --> 00:48:13.949 And we always point to Romans 12 too. 00:48:13.949 --> 00:48:18.150 It's don't conform to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. 00:48:18.300 --> 00:48:22.800 That that's a critically important scripture. 00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:25.469 And so what is the world telling you about marriage? 00:48:26.219 --> 00:48:28.559 What is your culture telling you about marriage? 00:48:28.829 --> 00:48:31.230 What is tradition telling you about marriage? 00:48:31.480 --> 00:48:33.300 Now, what is God's word say about that? 00:48:34.380 --> 00:48:38.369 And that is very different for a Kenyan marriage, for example. 00:48:40.019 --> 00:48:42.000 Now this is a great philosophical. 00:48:43.230 --> 00:48:43.619 Okay. 00:48:43.619 --> 00:48:49.320 And I agree with you a hundred percent this whole concept of it's not just lead. 00:48:49.679 --> 00:48:56.070 Not just seeing Jesus as Lord, but seeing him as truly Lord over your life. 00:48:56.159 --> 00:48:56.550 Okay? 00:48:57.420 --> 00:49:05.789 So if this is the great aha, and I love the name of Dar Miller's book, discipling Nations, okay? 00:49:06.630 --> 00:49:13.380 Not helping the poor, more Effectively, not doing Right, discipling nations, which speaks directly to what you're saying here. 00:49:13.469 --> 00:49:13.889 Exactly. 00:49:13.949 --> 00:49:15.989 How do I go from this? 00:49:16.230 --> 00:49:23.190 And this has been an issue that I have trouble with, is how do I go from what I think is a philosophical or biblical truth? 00:49:24.119 --> 00:49:32.519 In this particular sit situation putting together a methodology that sort of accomplishes that. 00:49:33.570 --> 00:49:35.760 So how do you, so help me out 00:49:35.764 --> 00:49:36.150 there. 00:49:36.269 --> 00:49:37.440 Okay, so that's what I was saying. 00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:37.710 What did 00:49:37.710 --> 00:49:38.130 you do? 00:49:38.130 --> 00:49:39.329 Tell me your story on that. 00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:39.900 It's really hard to 00:49:39.900 --> 00:49:43.710 execute on that Exactly what we do though. 00:49:44.114 --> 00:49:46.920 What, it ends up being is, oh, you just need to know Jesus. 00:49:46.949 --> 00:49:51.480 And if you do know Jesus, you need to come on, start following Jesus. 00:49:51.510 --> 00:49:54.090 Renew your mind so you have the mind of Christ. 00:49:54.239 --> 00:49:54.960 Oh, that helped. 00:49:55.320 --> 00:49:55.619 Yeah. 00:49:55.679 --> 00:49:56.369 I'm all over it. 00:49:56.820 --> 00:50:00.090 I think that's a classic way of helping the poor. 00:50:00.420 --> 00:50:01.710 You just need to know Jesus, Kurt. 00:50:01.710 --> 00:50:02.820 They just need Jesus. 00:50:02.880 --> 00:50:03.599 No, they do. 00:50:03.690 --> 00:50:04.349 They absolutely do. 00:50:04.349 --> 00:50:08.369 But they're not bodies without souls and they're not souls without bodies. 00:50:08.369 --> 00:50:08.849 They're both. 00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:12.300 So we can help them physically while we That's beautiful spiritually. 00:50:12.659 --> 00:50:14.789 And how do we, how do you actually go do that? 00:50:14.789 --> 00:50:16.289 And I'll give you examples of how we do that. 00:50:17.699 --> 00:50:18.659 There, there are two. 00:50:19.739 --> 00:50:26.010 Programs that we run in our economic development kind of area of our cuz we're holistic development, right? 00:50:26.010 --> 00:50:28.829 So a big part of that is economic empowerment. 00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:30.239 We run two programs. 00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:32.429 One of those is called business Startup Training. 00:50:32.429 --> 00:50:33.449 It's entrepreneurship training. 00:50:33.449 --> 00:50:33.840 I love it. 00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:39.690 And what they do is they learn how to start or better their existing business. 00:50:39.690 --> 00:50:42.239 They're all entrepreneurs over there because I I'd say 00:50:44.190 --> 00:50:47.190 they're all the poor, by and large are entrepreneurs. 00:50:47.190 --> 00:50:47.909 They have to be, 00:50:48.150 --> 00:50:49.079 they're self-employed. 00:50:49.079 --> 00:50:49.710 I'll put it there. 00:50:49.719 --> 00:50:50.000 Yeah. 00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:50.440 Yeah. 00:50:50.940 --> 00:50:54.449 Some have an entrepreneurial spirit more than others, but that's another topic for another time. 00:50:55.769 --> 00:51:09.389 But we have a, curriculum that we we train community members on and it basically does the basic business training that we would almost think to be common sense. 00:51:09.510 --> 00:51:12.659 Hey the, money in your pocket is not yours. 00:51:12.659 --> 00:51:14.519 The money in your pocket is your businesses. 00:51:15.690 --> 00:51:18.210 You, can't steal from your business by spending that money. 00:51:18.210 --> 00:51:18.719 It's your business. 00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:20.010 You gotta reinvest it in your business. 00:51:20.010 --> 00:51:24.329 You can't stop drinking or eating your profits if you're selling coke or food or whatever. 00:51:25.739 --> 00:51:29.039 You know all these, you know what it means to write a

basic business plan. 00:51:29.039 --> 00:51:35.519 Finding out what the community needs, what do they value, what would they be willing to pay for that you could provide a service for. 00:51:35.519 --> 00:51:40.409 All of these things are in the basic, how to start a microenterprise, a small enterprise. 00:51:40.590 --> 00:51:41.969 All of that's really, helpful. 00:51:42.929 --> 00:51:48.750 But if we were only to do that, we would fail because within that, we need to teach. 00:51:49.079 --> 00:51:51.809 Teach these entrepreneurs what God says about money. 00:51:52.739 --> 00:51:57.719 What God says about their relationships with their spouses are their spouses partners in this business. 00:51:58.289 --> 00:52:00.289 What's their relationship with their neighbors? 00:52:00.289 --> 00:52:04.380 If you want to have a successful business, you need customers, and your customers are your neighbors. 00:52:04.380 --> 00:52:09.960 And if everybody in your community hates you because you have broken relationships, you're not gonna have a successful business. 00:52:09.960 --> 00:52:17.789 And God wants you in his word to repair broken relationships and be a godly citizen of your community. 00:52:17.789 --> 00:52:43.500 And we talk about generosity and all these biblical worldview kind of teachings that are relevant to business and what happens, the beautiful thing that happens here that I think a lot of western organizations miss is that while the church, the local church in that community, or churches in that community are the hero of this development effort, a lot of the people that are learning this business training aren't going to church. 00:52:44.324 --> 00:52:46.364 So they're never able to hear God's truth. 00:52:46.364 --> 00:52:50.324 But when we bring God's truth into a program that's relevant to them, they're gonna listen. 00:52:50.835 --> 00:53:00.014 And we have more people come to the Lord in our business startup training, our foundations for farming training, which is basically training farming God's way than we do in any other program. 00:53:00.135 --> 00:53:02.534 And then the church, the local church becomes attractive. 00:53:03.315 --> 00:53:11.835 It's no longer the house of no, that people see how God's word helps them in their daily life and how he has created them for a purpose. 00:53:11.840 --> 00:53:14.445 And there is a right and a wrong way to do life. 00:53:14.505 --> 00:53:17.835 And tradition and culture is telling them lies. 00:53:17.840 --> 00:53:20.114 The world is telling them lies of what to believe. 00:53:20.114 --> 00:53:24.614 Like we have to wait for outsiders to come in and solve this problem for us. 00:53:24.764 --> 00:53:26.744 No, we can solve this problem on our own. 00:53:26.744 --> 00:53:29.085 We're capable, we're smart. 00:53:30.195 --> 00:53:31.574 We can persevere, we can 00:53:31.574 --> 00:53:32.204 be honest. 00:53:32.210 --> 00:53:33.135 No, that is so true. 00:53:33.405 --> 00:53:42.195 This gets back to just talking about the gospel to people is if God makes sense when you apply his word. 00:53:42.885 --> 00:54:01.485 To your life situation right now, And if it's, I don't have money, or I don't have a job, or I don't or my marriage is off base or whatever, that application, learning what his word says about that, applic that's, where it all the rubber meets the road, if 00:54:01.485 --> 00:54:01.965 you will. 00:54:02.235 --> 00:54:02.534 Sure. 00:54:02.565 --> 00:54:07.244 And when we do that in our communities, we're doing it for business startup training. 00:54:07.244 --> 00:54:08.715 We're doing it for farmers. 00:54:09.375 --> 00:54:11.385 God made the soil to work this way. 00:54:11.684 --> 00:54:16.304 You need to do things on time at a standard without waste, with joy. 00:54:16.545 --> 00:54:18.465 Where is your family in this effort? 00:54:18.525 --> 00:54:21.284 Are you being honest with your community when you're reselling things? 00:54:21.284 --> 00:54:22.065 Are you being generous? 00:54:22.485 --> 00:54:23.655 Are you giving back to the church? 00:54:23.655 --> 00:54:25.724 All of these biblical teachings as it relates to. 00:54:27.030 --> 00:54:32.280 Draw people to God's truth they'll, listen to it because it's helpful to them. 00:54:32.835 --> 00:54:33.780 Help me with this though. 00:54:33.869 --> 00:54:34.619 Help me with this. 00:54:35.280 --> 00:54:36.389 We skipped over something. 00:54:36.389 --> 00:54:49.260 You went right to an example, which was this business startup training that you were talking about is one of the issues that entrepreneurs have is they're very quick to do what in your case, okay. 00:54:49.559 --> 00:54:59.760 Would be these NGOs or other people that want to do good, do they, they identify what appears to be the problem, only to find out later. 00:55:00.449 --> 00:55:02.519 That's not really the problem. 00:55:02.730 --> 00:55:03.119 Okay. 00:55:03.630 --> 00:55:11.039 So how did you talk about how, once you've discovered, which is this is the worldview is really the problem. 00:55:11.340 --> 00:55:23.730 Can you take me a little bit more slowly through how did you develop how did you come to the solution or how did you come to a, clearer definition so that you can come to a better solution? 00:55:24.885 --> 00:55:26.715 See, take a little bit of patience. 00:55:26.715 --> 00:55:29.264 You gotta roll back to way, when you started here. 00:55:29.534 --> 00:55:29.835 Yeah. 00:55:29.835 --> 00:55:38.655 It really wasn't all that difficult because once you determined that, or once we determined that worldview was the thread that we needed to pull, right? 00:55:38.775 --> 00:55:39.105 Yeah. 00:55:39.195 --> 00:55:40.545 We needed to go down that path. 00:55:41.985 --> 00:55:49.005 It became really clear that in everything that we did, there needed to be a biblical worldview. 00:55:49.474 --> 00:55:50.144 Teaching in what we do. 00:55:50.534 --> 00:55:57.405 We're helping people physically, we're

helping them build capacity physically, both with infrastructure, human capacity training, all of that. 00:55:58.485 --> 00:56:04.155 But we don't need to, we didn't need to boil the ocean of God's word in everything. 00:56:04.155 --> 00:56:11.085 We needed to make God's word relevant to what they were learning so that they were drawn to it, and it became attractive to them. 00:56:11.864 --> 00:56:14.385 To me, how do we help the local church become at. 00:56:15.885 --> 00:56:18.704 The local churches in Kenya, for example. 00:56:19.755 --> 00:56:23.864 There's probably five to 10 churches in each one of our communities. 00:56:24.434 --> 00:56:26.175 One, how do we bring them together? 00:56:27.045 --> 00:56:29.565 How do we bring pastors who are competitive together? 00:56:29.804 --> 00:56:48.045 How do we talk to them about their culture, the realities of their community, and disseminate God's word relevant to whatever we're working on, even if it's water or education or business or health, everything that we do. 00:56:48.074 --> 00:56:54.945 If we're not helping people eternally and only helping them temporarily we're not accomplish what God's mission is for us. 00:56:54.945 --> 00:56:55.005 Yeah. 00:56:55.094 --> 00:56:55.545 But when you 00:56:55.545 --> 00:56:59.505 say helping them eternally that gets back up. 00:56:59.510 --> 00:57:01.545 That jumps me back to 30,000 feet. 00:57:01.605 --> 00:57:02.025 Okay. 00:57:02.204 --> 00:57:22.559 Whereas you say, I like what you said, which is whatever we teach, Whatever need we're addressing, if you will, major need, like you said, water, shelter, security, all those things is, it's, it starts by infusing God's word into that particular topic. 00:57:23.429 --> 00:57:23.880 That's, true. 00:57:24.389 --> 00:57:29.280 But, not, and I wanna be clear about this, but not using their need as a platform for the gospel. 00:57:30.034 --> 00:57:32.219 Cause the gospel is long enough to stand on its own. 00:57:32.610 --> 00:57:33.659 So we're not in a lot of 00:57:33.659 --> 00:57:34.110 organizations. 00:57:34.110 --> 00:57:38.849 And what you're saying is this is what God says about this activity that we're in. 00:57:38.909 --> 00:57:39.269 Yeah. 00:57:39.900 --> 00:57:43.019 This is God's truth about and how it relates to business or farming or whatever. 00:57:43.380 --> 00:57:47.730 We're not saying, Hey, here, we're gonna go put water in, but we need to have you come here about Jesus before we give you one. 00:57:48.329 --> 00:57:51.659 That's the gospel doesn't need their needs to be a platform. 00:57:51.719 --> 00:57:52.769 It can stand on its own. 00:57:53.099 --> 00:58:04.829 What we're doing is in everyday life, having relevant teaching of God's truth in the variety of programs that we run in schools, for example. 00:58:06.135 --> 00:58:08.235 We do a thing called Discovery Kids. 00:58:08.625 --> 00:58:16.094 And Discovery Kids is essentially biblical virtues taught to the kids in school in a very

interactive, fun way. 00:58:18.014 --> 00:58:33.105 And we're teaching about perseverance and cooperation and trust and honesty and all these biblical virtues that what we find is as you do that, you know what the, their parents are hearing the same virtues as it relates to business, right? 00:58:33.164 --> 00:58:34.125 You need to be trustworthy. 00:58:34.125 --> 00:58:35.684 You need to persevere through difficult times. 00:58:35.684 --> 00:58:36.974 You need to cooperate with your neighbors. 00:58:36.974 --> 00:58:37.574 You need, right? 00:58:38.054 --> 00:58:55.815 So when all of these biblical virtues, this biblical teaching, the worldview shift is communicated and through the local churches, through programs that we run in the same place, the community and the entire community has, a higher likelihood of having an aha moment that said, you know what? 00:58:58.780 --> 00:59:02.909 We thought the wrong way before they really, truly say this to me. 00:59:03.269 --> 00:59:04.110 We, thought, how long? 00:59:04.199 --> 00:59:05.219 How long? 00:59:05.760 --> 00:59:09.239 And we don't we how long does, that take? 00:59:09.630 --> 00:59:10.800 That aha moment? 00:59:11.789 --> 00:59:12.480 Years. 00:59:12.840 --> 00:59:13.289 Years. 00:59:13.889 --> 00:59:14.250 Okay. 00:59:15.659 --> 00:59:17.070 Let me go back to something. 00:59:17.070 --> 00:59:20.579 I wanna switch us off we're giving, you're giving me examples. 00:59:20.579 --> 00:59:21.059 Okay. 00:59:21.059 --> 00:59:21.460 Okay. 00:59:21.840 --> 00:59:29.639 You have a, I, I learned from your book, you have a very well defined methodology Okay. 00:59:29.699 --> 00:59:34.139 On how a community, how you find a community. 00:59:34.559 --> 00:59:41.880 How do you qualify a community how you help them do in a, how you find their leaders, how you help them do an assessment. 00:59:42.784 --> 00:59:43.019 Okay. 00:59:43.380 --> 00:59:51.179 Of, so can you bring us through the, it was like when I was talking to my son David, who was with you in Central America. 00:59:51.719 --> 00:59:53.760 He goes his six seeds. 00:59:55.125 --> 00:59:57.735 That he applied, he said it was brilliant. 00:59:58.934 --> 01:00:01.994 And take us through some of this. 01:00:01.994 --> 01:00:13.394 I think this it's just, it's not oh yeah, here's what we do at schools and here's what we do with the pastors, and here's No you've really, you've tied this thing down, man. 01:00:13.394 --> 01:00:15.614 So why don't you bring us through this methodology. 01:00:15.795 --> 01:00:23.985 I think where we, immediately went to the one thing that we're trying to change, which is worldview and fast forwarded through a bunch of methodology to get there. 01:00:24.344 --> 01:00:24.675 Yeah. 01:00:25.394 --> 01:00:30.554 There are lots of books about how to how to engage the poor better. 01:00:31.275 --> 01:00:40.244 Where I feel like organizations are failing or have fallen short is they're not executing on those that those principles. 01:00:40.724 --> 01:00:42.554 And we want to execute well in those principles. 01:00:42.554 --> 01:00:46.335 So one of the, one of the principles, for example, it starts with being invited. 01:00:47.750 --> 01:00:49.335 We can't just show up in a community. 01:00:49.335 --> 01:00:58.304 Of course we just showed up in a community in the early days cuz what we, had to find people who knew leaders in a community who would invite us in to have a conversation. 01:00:58.514 --> 01:01:03.885 Today we get in, we are invited in many, places that we don't have the capacity to help yet. 01:01:04.454 --> 01:01:06.315 But we get invited. 01:01:06.315 --> 01:01:08.804 And when you get invited, it changes the dynamic. 01:01:08.804 --> 01:01:14.235 It changes from a dynamic from, hey, this organization is here to do projects. 01:01:14.534 --> 01:01:15.824 To, they are one of us. 01:01:15.855 --> 01:01:18.255 We're inviting them into our community. 01:01:18.704 --> 01:01:23.204 And so it takes a long time for us to one, be invited. 01:01:23.474 --> 01:01:31.215 Once we're invited, that first meeting happens and no Americans should be in that meeting. 01:01:31.219 --> 01:01:35.355 This needs to be our Kenyan, Guatemala staff having these meetings with leaders. 01:01:36.105 --> 01:01:36.255 So 01:01:36.260 --> 01:01:37.335 these are locals 01:01:37.364 --> 01:01:38.445 having these meetings. 01:01:38.534 --> 01:01:39.704 A hundred percent local staff. 01:01:39.704 --> 01:01:44.445 That's what's I'm firm believer of, that we don't need any expat Americans in our cultures where we work. 01:01:45.510 --> 01:01:48.420 Because that would just upset, that would upset the dynamic. 01:01:48.420 --> 01:01:51.960 We want Kenyans helping Kenyans, Guatemalans helping Guatemala's and so forth. 01:01:52.710 --> 01:01:57.059 So we come in, we explain what it means to be a four 10 bridge community. 01:01:57.570 --> 01:02:00.929 We're not here to do anything for you, but we're here to do with you. 01:02:01.949 --> 01:02:09.269 And we have a pretty involved methodology around examples, object lessons of how we illustrate that. 01:02:09.269 --> 01:02:10.559 I illustrate it with a rope. 01:02:10.565 --> 01:02:11.079 One of 01:02:11.079 --> 01:02:16.889 the things that's one of your principles that I thought was very, clear is the definition of development. 01:02:17.429 --> 01:02:17.820 Yeah. 01:02:18.539 --> 01:02:19.030 Yeah. 01:02:19.050 --> 01:02:23.820 Just hit that, hit on that principle, be and then we're gonna go back to, 01:02:24.389 --> 01:02:24.570 yeah. 01:02:24.570 --> 01:02:26.099 So we rise and fall in a definitions. 01:02:26.340 --> 01:02:27.809 And so how do you define development? 01:02:27.840 --> 01:02:28.860 If we're a development industry? 01:02:28.860 --> 01:02:29.550 What is development? 01:02:29.550 --> 01:02:32.130 We define development by that, which people do for themselves. 01:02:32.429 --> 01:02:32.909 Ah. 01:02:33.480 --> 01:02:35.400 And so we

don't measure our success by what we do. 01:02:35.400 --> 01:02:37.500 We measure our success by what they do on their own. 01:02:39.135 --> 01:02:39.885 They need to pull 01:02:39.885 --> 01:02:40.335 us. 01:02:40.545 --> 01:02:45.014 That's a 180 different view than the way that mission trips are thought of. 01:02:45.405 --> 01:02:46.905 I think everybody says that. 01:02:46.994 --> 01:02:53.835 I think they say the right things, but they don't, they really would rather come in and do what they wanna do when they wanna do it, cuz it's their money, their time. 01:02:53.925 --> 01:02:56.385 They should do it their way and, we know best. 01:02:56.594 --> 01:02:57.074 Yeah, they do. 01:02:57.585 --> 01:02:57.974 Yeah. 01:02:59.264 --> 01:03:00.824 Okay, so that's development. 01:03:00.824 --> 01:03:02.025 So you get invited in this. 01:03:02.025 --> 01:03:05.565 You got Guatemala's helping Guatemala, you got Kenyans Helping Kenyans. 01:03:05.594 --> 01:03:05.954 Okay. 01:03:06.434 --> 01:03:06.525 An 01:03:06.525 --> 01:03:07.215 initial meeting. 01:03:07.215 --> 01:03:17.324 And then we say, look, if this is of interest to you, we want you to formally invite us back and this is what it means to have a covenant kind of relationship partnership with four 10 Bridge. 01:03:17.355 --> 01:03:22.875 Again, we lay out all these kind of guardrails of we're not gonna do for you, we're gonna do with you. 01:03:22.880 --> 01:03:29.474 Which means as leaders in your community, you need to mobilize and unify your community around this development effort. 01:03:29.684 --> 01:03:32.625 The development being defined as what you do, not by what we do. 01:03:33.900 --> 01:03:34.409 For you. 01:03:34.679 --> 01:03:40.949 And if you're interested in that, invite us back formally in writing, and some do and not, all do. 01:03:40.949 --> 01:03:41.130 What are 01:03:41.409 --> 01:03:42.329 you expecting from that? 01:03:42.329 --> 01:03:44.789 When if you told me that I wouldn't know what that meant. 01:03:44.820 --> 01:03:47.010 Do I just write you notes, says please come back. 01:03:47.340 --> 01:03:51.179 Write us a letter that says, Hey, we understand what you've laid out for us. 01:03:51.184 --> 01:03:54.210 We're excited to enter into a relationship with four 10 Bridge. 01:03:54.360 --> 01:03:59.130 We wanna formally invite you to begin that, process with us, this development. 01:03:59.135 --> 01:03:59.250 Help 01:03:59.250 --> 01:03:59.670 me with this. 01:03:59.670 --> 01:04:05.130 Then when you go get invited, who's doing the inviting the first time? 01:04:05.135 --> 01:04:07.079 Who's inviting you into that community? 01:04:08.489 --> 01:04:13.079 The model works, the original vision was we wanted to go so deep in a place. 01:04:13.905 --> 01:04:15.824 That we would move the needle in that place. 01:04:15.824 --> 01:04:25.275 And we would no fool and move the needle to such a degree that places around the place that we worked took notice and invited us into their communities because of what they saw in their neighboring communities. 01:04:26.505 --> 01:04:27.465 And that's what 01:04:27.465 --> 01:04:27.675 happened. 01:04:27.675 --> 01:04:31.065 Who did the inviting if I got a community, let's say I have a village. 01:04:31.065 --> 01:04:38.864 How many people in a village, let's say there's 1500 people or 2000 people in a village, who invites the leaders there? 01:04:38.864 --> 01:04:39.195 Every 01:04:39.195 --> 01:04:40.184 village has a leader. 01:04:40.514 --> 01:04:43.695 Every leader, every village has multiple leaders. 01:04:44.025 --> 01:04:44.715 They have multiple leaders. 01:04:44.864 --> 01:04:49.394 I don't mean an a, an elected not a politician. 01:04:49.554 --> 01:04:50.045 Yeah. 01:04:50.474 --> 01:04:53.025 Who are the people that the people are following? 01:04:53.534 --> 01:04:54.014 I see. 01:04:54.045 --> 01:04:54.434 Okay. 01:04:55.364 --> 01:04:57.675 People always ask me how do you find leaders in the community? 01:04:57.860 --> 01:04:58.934 It's not all that difficult. 01:04:58.940 --> 01:05:00.284 You just look at how they're organized. 01:05:01.514 --> 01:05:04.844 They have associations, they have co-ops, they have schools, they have churches. 01:05:04.844 --> 01:05:07.125 Who's leading those, organizations, 01:05:07.125 --> 01:05:07.755 those associations. 01:05:07.760 --> 01:05:11.695 It might not be working well, but it's, it is doing something and working somewhat. 01:05:11.985 --> 01:05:13.934 And who's following who? 01:05:14.244 --> 01:05:14.735 Yeah. 01:05:15.195 --> 01:05:16.905 Are you a leader if no one's following you? 01:05:17.614 --> 01:05:17.815 Yeah. 01:05:19.304 --> 01:05:22.364 So people are following people in the communities and we gather. 01:05:22.364 --> 01:05:22.454 And 01:05:22.735 --> 01:05:23.775 that's who invites you? 01:05:23.925 --> 01:05:24.195 Yep. 01:05:24.585 --> 01:05:25.965 That's who you come and talk to. 01:05:26.355 --> 01:05:26.565 Yep. 01:05:26.565 --> 01:05:28.724 You don't talk to the whole 1500 people. 01:05:28.724 --> 01:05:31.755 You talk to that, those three to five people or whatever. 01:05:31.755 --> 01:05:33.494 It's Yeah, usually. 01:05:34.094 --> 01:05:34.244 Yeah. 01:05:34.250 --> 01:05:36.224 Then they come and they say, I get it. 01:05:36.764 --> 01:05:38.204 Development is up to us. 01:05:38.684 --> 01:05:45.284 They seem to have helped other people, other communities they've, seemed to been trans, trans. 01:05:46.275 --> 01:05:47.954 transformed and Right. 01:05:48.045 --> 01:05:50.175 That's what what we, would like that. 01:05:50.175 --> 01:05:52.184 So I write you a letter and say, I get it. 01:05:52.489 --> 01:05:53.355 We like you back. 01:05:53.355 --> 01:05:55.275 Come on let's, get started 01:05:55.275 --> 01:05:55.574 here. 01:05:55.934 --> 01:06:09.135 But help me there's a nuanced difference to that too, is that there is a group of leaders historically and there's a subset of communities where we've,

worked where they're like, they'll say anything that they need to say to get us to come back and do projects. 01:06:09.704 --> 01:06:11.474 And that's why I can't show up. 01:06:11.505 --> 01:06:20.295 That's why our Kenyan staff, our Guatemala, Ken staff, they can see through that veil of culture and understand most of the time whether or not leaders are sincere or not. 01:06:20.775 --> 01:06:23.864 But the other thing that, the nuance here, that's really, fascinating. 01:06:23.925 --> 01:06:24.195 That's 01:06:24.195 --> 01:06:24.465 right. 01:06:24.554 --> 01:06:26.804 That is in and of itself a nuance. 01:06:26.835 --> 01:06:27.224 Okay. 01:06:27.434 --> 01:06:28.605 That's really good. 01:06:28.965 --> 01:06:33.795 The other thing is, and that took you a while to figure that out cause you didn't have locals at first Okay. 01:06:33.795 --> 01:06:34.355 That were in those 01:06:34.355 --> 01:06:34.514 things. 01:06:34.514 --> 01:06:36.465 Just a lot of frogs to find a few s for sure. 01:06:38.175 --> 01:06:43.065 But the other thing is, that they they are so grateful. 01:06:44.744 --> 01:06:47.264 In many cases to being asked. 01:06:48.405 --> 01:06:54.795 So when we walk into a community, Charlie, we're not saying, Hey, we could we can look around and in 10 minutes figure out what the needs are. 01:06:55.275 --> 01:06:57.284 They're not all that different from community to community. 01:06:58.125 --> 01:06:59.775 But the conversation doesn't start there. 01:06:59.775 --> 01:07:02.625 The conversation starts with, Hey, what do you love about your community? 01:07:02.630 --> 01:07:03.614 Why do you love living here? 01:07:03.614 --> 01:07:06.525 If I was gonna move to your community, tell me why I should wanna live here. 01:07:08.025 --> 01:07:15.405 And now they start talking about all the positive things and we ask them, Hey, what are the skills that your people do in your community really well? 01:07:15.405 --> 01:07:18.155 What do you do so well that you could teach others to go do it? 01:07:20.760 --> 01:07:28.199 What are the, assets, the giftings, the things inside your community that other communities don't have, that you have that are really beneficial to you? 01:07:29.070 --> 01:07:32.849 And then what are some assets that exist outside your community that you can access? 01:07:32.849 --> 01:07:36.960 They're not inside your community, they're outside your community that you can access that help your community. 01:07:37.380 --> 01:07:42.449 And when you do all of that I'm, taking hours of discussion and distilling it down to 30 seconds. 01:07:42.599 --> 01:07:42.659 Yeah. 01:07:42.659 --> 01:07:44.550 When you do that, you have an asset map. 01:07:45.449 --> 01:07:54.179 You understand what they love about their community, what they do really well, what giftings and skills and assets exist inside their community and just outside their community. 01:07:54.389 --> 01:08:00.599 And so when they come back to you with what their needs are,

you can point back to all these positive things in the community. 01:08:00.599 --> 01:08:00.719 That's 01:08:01.090 --> 01:08:01.650 the next step. 01:08:01.739 --> 01:08:01.829 Yeah. 01:08:01.829 --> 01:08:02.369 It's interesting. 01:08:02.375 --> 01:08:04.769 You don't start with what does your community need? 01:08:04.949 --> 01:08:05.219 Never. 01:08:05.219 --> 01:08:07.440 You say first, why is your community great? 01:08:07.710 --> 01:08:11.969 And then what, assets are in this community? 01:08:12.179 --> 01:08:14.369 What can you do, what skills, whatever. 01:08:14.949 --> 01:08:17.310 And then you finally get to the next step, which is what are your 01:08:17.310 --> 01:08:17.760 needs? 01:08:18.149 --> 01:08:22.619 And then you say if, those what do they think their needs are, right? 01:08:22.859 --> 01:08:35.430 If you have these needs, but you have all of these great positive things going on in your community, how can both of these be true Because, so we then when, we do this assessment 01:08:35.435 --> 01:08:45.869 process, you kind looks, when you lay that out, you showed them, it's a lot of their assets and what they have these, all these assets and resources and then these needs. 01:08:45.869 --> 01:08:50.369 How do you say why is this, happening? 01:08:51.484 --> 01:08:52.229 What do they, do 01:08:55.109 --> 01:08:56.130 It, depends on the community. 01:08:56.130 --> 01:09:11.399 Of course, I'm painting with a kind of a broad brush here, but one of the things they do is they are thrown back in their chair and they sign and say, that's a good question, What do we need to tell this organization so that they'll come and work with us? 01:09:12.390 --> 01:09:17.970 So it's and another thing is, that they'll say where it really is great is where they come and go. 01:09:19.824 --> 01:09:21.659 We're, not sitting around doing nothing. 01:09:22.439 --> 01:09:29.609 We just don't have the capacity to do a lot quickly, but we've already done these things to go solve these problems. 01:09:29.699 --> 01:09:31.920 And oh, okay, our way, we're walking on our way. 01:09:31.920 --> 01:09:34.050 Those are the communities that we wanna come alongside. 01:09:34.829 --> 01:09:39.210 But what we do is when we have this assessment process, if it's, 10, but there are some 01:09:39.210 --> 01:09:44.760 communities that you go to and you lay that out and they go the reason, yeah, we do have all this. 01:09:45.779 --> 01:09:46.109 Okay. 01:09:46.109 --> 01:09:52.920 These assets, as you call them, resources, but we do have these needs and we're just overwhelmed by the needs we really can't do nothing. 01:09:52.920 --> 01:09:54.449 We need somebody to come in and help us. 01:09:55.020 --> 01:09:55.380 Yeah. 01:09:55.560 --> 01:09:55.949 And so 01:09:55.949 --> 01:09:58.500 then, and that's one of those that you go, we're not gonna help you. 01:09:59.340 --> 01:10:02.729 No, We're gonna say, so that, that's what's called an empowerment analysis. 01:10:02.729

--> 01:10:03.909 That's the, okay. 01:10:03.909 --> 01:10:06.689 That's kinda the last step in our assessment process. 01:10:08.250 --> 01:10:13.829 When you think about empowerment, that's an overused, poorly defined word in as it relates to helping the poor. 01:10:13.829 --> 01:10:15.600 Everybody wants to empower the poor, but what does that 01:10:15.630 --> 01:10:15.750 mean? 01:10:15.750 --> 01:10:16.110 Lemme tell you. 01:10:16.115 --> 01:10:19.260 It's a marketing word and you marketing guys love words like that. 01:10:19.409 --> 01:10:19.800 Yeah. 01:10:20.100 --> 01:10:22.229 I don't wanna be characterized as a marketing guy anymore, 01:10:25.890 --> 01:10:28.319 you can't run from your resume, Kurt. 01:10:28.319 --> 01:10:28.439 That's 01:10:28.909 --> 01:10:29.069 true. 01:10:29.069 --> 01:10:29.609 That's true. 01:10:29.670 --> 01:10:30.720 Nor should I? 01:10:31.109 --> 01:10:35.550 But you can't empower somebody against their will. 01:10:36.869 --> 01:10:40.350 People need to claim, need to accept, need to embrace their empowerment. 01:10:40.350 --> 01:10:44.399 You can put'em in an empowering environment, but they need to claim it. 01:10:45.149 --> 01:10:55.560 And so what we go through is on our assessment process takes hours if not days to go through at the end of it, it ultimately comes down to they have things they want to go solve. 01:10:56.369 --> 01:11:01.979 And so we ask the leaders, look, we don't want you to answer this as a group, we want you to answer this question individually. 01:11:02.895 --> 01:11:10.095 And that is, if you could change one thing in your community today, what's the one thing that you would want to change? 01:11:10.574 --> 01:11:18.704 What is one thing that you don't want your children or your grandchildren to struggle with that you currently struggle with, but you only can choose one? 01:11:19.425 --> 01:11:19.664 Wow. 01:11:19.670 --> 01:11:21.015 We ask them to keep that quiet. 01:11:22.244 --> 01:11:25.005 And then when everyone's completed that we have them share it. 01:11:25.005 --> 01:11:29.414 And they may have five or six different one things they want to go do, but then it's incumbent upon them. 01:11:29.420 --> 01:11:33.585 We say, okay, when you guys, as the leaders of your community, you only can choose one. 01:11:33.585 --> 01:11:38.085 So you guys need to talk to each other for a bit and just choose one. 01:11:38.265 --> 01:11:39.045 And they choose one. 01:11:40.154 --> 01:11:41.145 And let's say it's water. 01:11:42.494 --> 01:11:45.494 And we'll say, okay what's the solution to your water problem? 01:11:45.765 --> 01:11:51.944 And they may say we have this river that runs through our community, but it's seasonal so it dries up. 01:11:52.005 --> 01:11:54.555 And when that dries up there is no water. 01:11:54.555 --> 01:11:56.444 So we need to go drill a borehole. 01:11:57.854 --> 01:12:02.354 With a pump and a tank to pull water out from underground and have water for our community. 01:12:02.385 --> 01:12:04.234 And so let's just say that's their solution. 01:12:04.239 --> 01:12:07.185 That's their view of their problem, their solution to their problem. 01:12:08.024 --> 01:12:14.385 We say, okay, and we draw three concentric circles on a big piece of paper. 01:12:15.404 --> 01:12:23.984 And in the center circle, center of this circle is the amount of the solution, the percentage of this solution that the community can do on its own. 01:12:24.045 --> 01:12:26.895 How much of this water problem can you solve on your own? 01:12:27.524 --> 01:12:31.904 The middle circle is how much of that problem do you need help from outsiders? 01:12:32.564 --> 01:12:39.194 And the outer band of this, these three concentric circles, is the percentage of the solution that's beyond anyone's control. 01:12:39.465 --> 01:12:49.005 If it doesn't rain, there's no water, the aquifers dry up, whatever it might be, and then we give them 10 seeds, 10 coffee beans, 10 stones, whatever it's called, a 10. 01:12:50.055 --> 01:12:52.545 And I didn't come up with that, by the way, a guy named Robbie Jaren. 01:12:52.545 --> 01:12:53.755 Did we? 01:12:53.760 --> 01:12:54.795 We used it for years. 01:12:55.335 --> 01:12:59.435 But then we say, Hey, these 10 seeds represent a hundred percent of this water solution. 01:13:00.225 --> 01:13:07.185 We need you to distribute these 10 seeds across these three bands to tell us what percentage of this problem can the community solve on its own? 01:13:07.189 --> 01:13:11.505 How much help do you need from outsiders and how much do you see as outside of anyone's control? 01:13:12.314 --> 01:13:24.675 And then the community has, the leaders have a problem, Charlie, because if they put too many, if they put too many seeds in the center circle, we may not help them because they can do too much on their own, right? 01:13:24.824 --> 01:13:32.024 If we put too many, if they put too many seeds in the middle band, they're gonna think that, oh, this organization might think that we're helpless and they're not gonna help us. 01:13:32.805 --> 01:13:36.404 And if we put too many on the outer band, they're gonna think we're hopeless and they're not gonna help us. 01:13:36.524 --> 01:13:38.744 So they're moving these seeds. 01:13:38.750 --> 01:13:39.885 It's a fascinating thing. 01:13:39.885 --> 01:13:45.524 It takes'em 20, 30 minutes to work through this until they are trying to find the right way, the right answer. 01:13:46.640 --> 01:13:47.130 and I get it. 01:13:47.670 --> 01:13:48.479 They need water. 01:13:48.569 --> 01:13:49.380 It's heartbreaking. 01:13:49.380 --> 01:13:50.220 They need water. 01:13:50.880 --> 01:13:53.579 They're walking hours every day for dirty water. 01:13:53.579 --> 01:13:54.239 They're getting sick. 01:13:54.449 --> 01:13:55.619 It's a heartbreaking thing. 01:13:57.029 --> 01:13:59.501 So finally, they land on Anw answer. 01:13:59.506 --> 01:14:12.359 And so the, for the cases of this, for the

purposes of this kind of conversation, I'll say they put 30% say in the center circle, they put 60% on the, in the middle and, 10% in the one seed in the outer band. 01:14:13.229 --> 01:14:19.140 And then they step back and, they say okay, we think this is the right answer. 01:14:20.430 --> 01:14:23.939 But the answer, the next question isn't when do we start? 01:14:24.899 --> 01:14:38.970 The next question is, if you can do 30% of this solution on your own, what are you waiting for And are you looking for someone to come in with 60% from outside before you go do your 30%? 01:14:39.914 --> 01:14:43.454 And there's this old story that's been tried and true for years. 01:14:43.784 --> 01:14:58.274 If there are, if there're if I'm in a Kenyan community and I said if two people in your community are trying to make their way to Nairobi and they know that I'm going to Nairobi and one of'em is walking on the road to Nairobi and another one is sitting in their home waiting for me to pick them up, who am I gonna give a ride to? 01:14:59.024 --> 01:15:00.494 Why are you gonna give a ride to the guy walking? 01:15:00.765 --> 01:15:01.305 Exactly. 01:15:01.814 --> 01:15:04.935 So what are you doing to go solve this 30% on your own? 01:15:05.475 --> 01:15:07.994 And then they say, sometimes they say, oh, this is what we're doing. 01:15:07.994 --> 01:15:08.685 We're doing this. 01:15:08.685 --> 01:15:12.975 We did a hydrogeological survey, we're raising money, we're doing things great. 01:15:12.975 --> 01:15:13.994 That's what we want to hear. 01:15:14.744 --> 01:15:17.055 But then we ask them who are these outsiders 01:15:17.055 --> 01:15:19.335 that you, what a second, what else do you hear about that? 01:15:19.335 --> 01:15:20.774 Give me another answer that you hear. 01:15:23.805 --> 01:15:31.364 Another, answer is we don't this is a bad answer, but we don't have the resources to do the 30%. 01:15:31.395 --> 01:15:33.704 We need somebody to come in first with the 60 before. 01:15:33.854 --> 01:15:34.335 Ah, there you go. 01:15:34.364 --> 01:15:34.845 Okay. 01:15:34.935 --> 01:15:35.175 Yeah. 01:15:35.175 --> 01:15:46.845 People, they'll say, we can do soft contribution, unskilled labor, nothing material, but we need people to give us the materials to go solve this problem if it's a clinic or a school building or whatever. 01:15:47.354 --> 01:15:51.614 So there's, different answers, but the it's, not about solving the problem yet. 01:15:52.364 --> 01:15:56.744 It's about their perspectives on solving the problem, because who are the outsiders? 01:15:57.375 --> 01:16:02.475 Are we the outsider that you're waiting for us to come in and do this 60% before you do your 30? 01:16:03.494 --> 01:16:07.875 We know there are a bunch of older organizations in Kenya that are solving the water problem. 01:16:08.265 --> 01:16:12.194 What's your governance governor, your government's role in helping you solve this problem? 01:16:12.734 --> 01:16:22.994 And at the end of the day, as leaders in your community, what are you doing to find these outsiders that can come in and help you solve the resource problem that you currently have? 01:16:22.994 --> 01:16:26.564 And they ultimately realize that all the seeds are in the center. 01:16:27.045 --> 01:16:28.425 It's their responsibility. 01:16:29.114 --> 01:16:31.994 They can't be looking to outsiders to solve their problem. 01:16:33.074 --> 01:16:39.194 And when they get that, when they have that realization, we're happy to come along and help them go further faster. 01:16:40.185 --> 01:16:46.185 But when they come to us with a list of projects that we want, they want us to go do we just say, thank you. 01:16:46.185 --> 01:16:48.614 But that's just not, that's just not gonna solve it. 01:16:48.654 --> 01:16:49.034 How do they 01:16:49.784 --> 01:16:55.484 How, long does it take for them to realize, oh my God, all the seeds are in the center. 01:16:55.784 --> 01:16:58.484 There is 10% that's outside of our control. 01:16:59.055 --> 01:16:59.444 Okay. 01:16:59.444 --> 01:17:01.034 But the 90. 01:17:01.965 --> 01:17:04.935 All those seeds, those nine seeds are in the center. 01:17:05.175 --> 01:17:05.534 Yeah. 01:17:06.074 --> 01:17:07.215 How long does it take for 01:17:07.215 --> 01:17:09.795 them to some, communities never get that. 01:17:09.944 --> 01:17:10.515 Some leaders right. 01:17:10.545 --> 01:17:12.255 With your communities you won't work with. 01:17:12.675 --> 01:17:16.484 But communities that they get it at that point and when Right then 01:17:16.664 --> 01:17:17.595 in that discussion. 01:17:17.774 --> 01:17:17.895 Yeah. 01:17:17.899 --> 01:17:18.314 They get it. 01:17:18.765 --> 01:17:22.185 So here's a real life example that I have in the book. 01:17:22.755 --> 01:17:24.074 It, would happen in Honduras. 01:17:24.585 --> 01:17:32.175 We were invited into Honduras by another organization to try to help them understand how we did what we did so they could go and implement it on their own. 01:17:32.864 --> 01:17:51.375 And we were in this community at the top of a mountain and it was a 20 to 30 minute drive up these switchback mountains longer than it actually, but to back roads, really bad roads to the top of this mountain where they're growing coffee or they're growing, they're doing dairy, they're farmers, they're doing a lot of things up there. 01:17:51.645 --> 01:17:52.095 They got 01:17:52.095 --> 01:17:53.024 stuff to sell. 01:17:53.265 --> 01:17:53.654 Huh? 01:17:53.954 --> 01:17:54.854 They got stuff to 01:17:54.854 --> 01:17:55.215 sell. 01:17:55.234 --> 01:17:55.675 They do. 01:17:55.675 --> 01:17:56.715 And they can't get to market. 01:17:56.835 --> 01:18:03.885 And so when we went through this whole process with them, It came down to the empowerment analysis of how much they can do on their own and so forth. 01:18:05.085 --> 01:18:07.364 The problem that they identified were their roads. 01:18:07.425 --> 01:18:10.545 We need, our number one

priority is to fix our roads. 01:18:11.414 --> 01:18:16.185 And we don't do roads, I just, we can't do, we don't have heavy equipment, whatever. 01:18:16.395 --> 01:18:17.505 But no you're 01:18:17.505 --> 01:18:18.645 a school specialist. 01:18:19.104 --> 01:18:19.524 The, 01:18:19.725 --> 01:18:22.574 point is that how much of this can you do on your own? 01:18:22.574 --> 01:18:23.864 How much do you need help from outsiders? 01:18:24.645 --> 01:18:30.614 And they came back with, I think 40% in the center, 60% in the middle, and nothing was beyond their control. 01:18:31.755 --> 01:18:33.885 And we gave'em the question of what are you waiting for? 01:18:34.784 --> 01:18:37.005 And who are these outsiders that you're looking for? 01:18:37.005 --> 01:18:38.354 Are you looking to us to do that? 01:18:38.354 --> 01:18:40.364 There are plenty of outsiders that can go help you to do that. 01:18:41.354 --> 01:18:45.314 And I revisited that community two months later and they had their roads fixed. 01:18:45.854 --> 01:18:46.335 Wow. 01:18:46.364 --> 01:18:49.545 And when I ask them guys, this road's amazing. 01:18:49.965 --> 01:18:50.835 How did this happen? 01:18:51.675 --> 01:18:54.885 They said it happened because you changed how we thought. 01:18:55.064 --> 01:18:56.854 We never thought. 01:18:57.750 --> 01:19:02.760 That we were in control of finding outsiders to come in and help, us with this road. 01:19:02.760 --> 01:19:06.869 And we realized that the outsider that needed to help us was the government, the mayor. 01:19:06.869 --> 01:19:13.439 So we went down the mountain, 200 of us, and we descended on the mayor's office and we said, we want our road fixed. 01:19:13.800 --> 01:19:24.300 If you hadn't, if you give us 60% heavy equipment, some fuel, we'll hire the drivers, we'll provide the skilled labor and we'll fix the road on our own if you can give us a bit of help. 01:19:24.510 --> 01:19:28.439 And in two months they had the road fixed, just cuz they started thinking different. 01:19:28.439 --> 01:19:33.630 So how were they thinking before we're waiting for the government to, our government is worthless. 01:19:33.630 --> 01:19:35.100 Our government does nothing for us. 01:19:35.100 --> 01:19:38.710 Our government we can't do this on, we don't have heavy equipment. 01:19:38.715 --> 01:19:40.710 We need somebody to come in and do this for us, 01:19:41.430 --> 01:19:41.819 it seems. 01:19:41.819 --> 01:19:48.720 So they were having the conversation and the conversation with the government in their head and, the government were saying no. 01:19:48.720 --> 01:19:49.859 So that was the end of it. 01:19:50.159 --> 01:19:50.220 They 01:19:50.500 --> 01:19:51.899 didn't do anything they're helpless. 01:19:52.199 --> 01:19:52.680 They were just, yeah. 01:19:52.680 --> 01:19:53.140 They didn't do it. 01:19:53.140 --> 01:19:53.500 But. 01:19:54.500 --> 01:19:58.380 It, makes it sound, when I say it this way, it sounds like it's it's just common sense and it's so easy. 01:19:58.649 --> 01:20:09.720 It takes time and it, you gotta build trust with the community so they listen and you gotta challenge them a bit, but they gotta understand that they can, that they're that, it's not hopeless. 01:20:10.170 --> 01:20:15.060 And that there are ways of you as leaders to be effective leaders for your community. 01:20:15.119 --> 01:20:20.609 Not being self-interested in your own wellbeing, but really having a vision for your community. 01:20:21.090 --> 01:20:25.409 Getting together as a group and figuring out, Hey, how are we gonna go solve this problem on our own Because this 01:20:25.779 --> 01:20:28.079 you make it sound, lemme hear what I'm hearing. 01:20:28.739 --> 01:20:31.680 Not you make it us, you make it sound like. 01:20:32.354 --> 01:20:38.145 Four 10 Bridge is a high level management consulting organization. 01:20:38.414 --> 01:20:38.864 Okay. 01:20:39.074 --> 01:20:39.194 Yeah. 01:20:39.194 --> 01:20:39.944 I'm not that smart. 01:20:40.215 --> 01:20:41.444 There's, four 10 Bridge. 01:20:41.505 --> 01:20:44.864 And who is in the second circle that you're talking about there? 01:20:44.895 --> 01:20:45.345 Okay. 01:20:45.375 --> 01:20:47.145 In other words, resources, who could help? 01:20:47.564 --> 01:20:55.725 How does beyond this methodology and beyond the most important thing, which is changing the way that they think, okay. 01:20:56.055 --> 01:20:58.814 That development is really something they do. 01:20:58.814 --> 01:21:00.585 Not everybody else does right? 01:21:01.064 --> 01:21:05.984 What do you, is there anything that you guys do besides what you just described? 01:21:07.755 --> 01:21:08.055 Yeah. 01:21:08.210 --> 01:21:15.404 You literally ever help, Are you one of those resources come with, come beside them and work with them in their development? 01:21:15.404 --> 01:21:15.944 Absolutely. 01:21:16.064 --> 01:21:16.635 Absolutely. 01:21:16.635 --> 01:21:25.395 We are, when we partner with the community, we're walking with that leadership council for eight to 13 years is the longest the long time. 01:21:25.784 --> 01:21:29.774 So you putting money into it or you into it when they come. 01:21:29.774 --> 01:21:37.904 Again, that empowerment analysis that I explained, This doesn't happen tactically, but basically it's the methodology for every project that we would do. 01:21:39.704 --> 01:21:55.305 Look, we have this dilapidated school building, and if I had gone to Bali with that first school building in Uganda and had this methodology, I would've asked how much I would've asked the community, how much of this school building could you do on your own? 01:21:55.335 --> 01:21:58.965 I never asked that I was coming in to save the day, I was coming in to build it on my own, right? 01:21:59.414 --> 01:22:05.305 So in everything we asked them what are you gonna do to contribute to this problem or this solution? 01:22:05.835 --> 01:22:16.364 And over time they should be contributing more and

more to their solutions than we are to the point where ultimately they're doing more to solve their own problems than we are. 01:22:16.364 --> 01:22:18.074 We're just helping them go further, faster. 01:22:18.975 --> 01:22:33.104 But at the end of the day when we undermine their def their definition of development, which needs to be what they do, not what outsiders do, if we undermine that by coming in and doing for them, not with them. 01:22:33.524 --> 01:22:36.944 We'll erode the development model and will ultimately fail. 01:22:37.095 --> 01:22:40.154 So we're always, we're saying no way more than we say. 01:22:40.154 --> 01:22:40.694 Yes. 01:22:41.354 --> 01:22:49.904 We want to be encouraging to them and and we want to challenge them to mobilize their community to come out and, solve their own problems. 01:22:50.265 --> 01:22:50.895 And it's not just, 01:22:51.404 --> 01:22:57.074 you told me about, you told me about a success they need a what you told me about a success. 01:22:57.284 --> 01:22:57.404 Yeah. 01:22:57.404 --> 01:22:59.175 Which was these people at the top of the mountain. 01:22:59.175 --> 01:22:59.564 Where was that? 01:22:59.564 --> 01:23:00.255 In Guatemala. 01:23:00.375 --> 01:23:00.944 Honduras. 01:23:01.244 --> 01:23:01.904 Honduras, okay. 01:23:02.324 --> 01:23:11.414 And have you ever had what was a success or appeared to be on the road to success? 01:23:11.595 --> 01:23:12.045 Okay. 01:23:12.885 --> 01:23:13.095 Yet 01:23:13.095 --> 01:23:14.234 they didn't succeed. 01:23:14.505 --> 01:23:14.925 Oh yeah. 01:23:15.135 --> 01:23:15.944 More than I would like. 01:23:15.944 --> 01:23:16.505 How could, 01:23:16.635 --> 01:23:21.494 because in order to be on the road to success, I would think that You've changed my thinking. 01:23:22.154 --> 01:23:22.635 Okay. 01:23:23.175 --> 01:23:24.854 And you've come alongside me and all that. 01:23:24.859 --> 01:23:27.585 How does something like that not succeed? 01:23:32.255 --> 01:23:33.885 A couple reasons, few reasons. 01:23:34.875 --> 01:23:41.564 This falls in the category of it's good to graduate a community and it's bad to exit a community. 01:23:41.564 --> 01:23:57.164 So we call these exits and an exit happens when leaders become corrupt or there's a change in leadership and they, want, they're more interested in their personal benefit than the benefit to the community. 01:23:57.225 --> 01:24:06.045 That's one way, but really the biggest way that it fails and we have to exit is because of the west, where become a because of whom? 01:24:06.194 --> 01:24:08.204 Because of the west, because of us. 01:24:09.225 --> 01:24:24.465 So our greatest risk to our develop, our self-development model is is the west American churches, American other, organizations coming in and working in our community where they undermine the self-development effort. 01:24:24.465 --> 01:24:25.845 They come in and do four people. 01:24:26.265 --> 01:24:27.645 As opposed to with people. 01:24:28.005 --> 01:24:31.454 So they come in with the original model that you say doesn't 01:24:31.454 --> 01:24:39.135 work, and it undermines the community's desire to go solve their own problem because it's other organization's now, solving it for us. 01:24:39.914 --> 01:24:44.864 And so that's, or we've had some cases where church partners, how do they, how 01:24:44.895 --> 01:24:48.435 does a church, how does a church find one of your communities? 01:24:48.675 --> 01:24:55.725 Or how does the west find one of your communities or another ngo and then start applying their model? 01:24:55.755 --> 01:24:56.654 How do they find it? 01:24:56.654 --> 01:25:04.185 If you're so en, tightly embedded in in entwined in that solution, you follow me and have those relationships. 01:25:04.454 --> 01:25:05.324 You speak very much. 01:25:05.324 --> 01:25:07.725 You have a whole chapter on relationships in your book. 01:25:08.324 --> 01:25:08.835 Okay. 01:25:09.045 --> 01:25:10.875 So you have those relationships. 01:25:11.685 --> 01:25:14.774 And then yet you're saying someone can come in from the. 01:25:15.614 --> 01:25:19.005 And start eating away at again how 01:25:19.005 --> 01:25:20.234 I think, yeah. 01:25:20.625 --> 01:25:25.604 So there's no silver bullet here, but it's, a bunch of different ways that happens. 01:25:25.935 --> 01:25:43.095 One is, we work best in, we work in rural communities, and if we see other organizations already working in this community that we've been invited into, we're gonna go vet those organizations to see if we can be successful in this community with them already there. 01:25:44.895 --> 01:25:51.135 If they're already in an unhealthy development model we're, swimming upstream and they're, 01:25:51.140 --> 01:25:59.295 so that's evaluating the competition in effect, I'm using the word com using secular terms here, or I shouldn't say that I'm, using business terms. 01:26:00.284 --> 01:26:02.295 But if the competition, if the way. 01:26:02.954 --> 01:26:06.824 That things are being done in that area are by the old model. 01:26:07.904 --> 01:26:08.984 And there's some really, and you're, 01:26:08.984 --> 01:26:11.744 swimming upstream trying to put in a new way of thinking. 01:26:11.954 --> 01:26:16.994 And there's really large organizations that are working in communities that we haven't been able to be successful in. 01:26:17.104 --> 01:26:17.595 Yeah. 01:26:17.805 --> 01:26:20.310 Cause they, they talk a good game. 01:26:20.654 --> 01:26:26.954 They've all read the books, but they're not actually executing with discipline on not doing four people. 01:26:27.885 --> 01:26:29.864 Or they are doing four people not with people. 01:26:29.954 --> 01:26:31.034 So that's, one way. 01:26:31.034 --> 01:26:33.284 The other way is, that organizations just show up. 01:26:33.314 --> 01:26:35.625 I don't know how they find out about these communities. 01:26:35.625 --> 01:26:37.784 Somebody knows somebody in a church or something, I don't know.

01:26:37.784 --> 01:26:46.935 And all of a sudden they show up and they start they, want to have leaders come together, like we do, but they start paying the leaders together. 01:26:48.015 --> 01:26:51.074 So we'll pay leaders to come to a meeting. 01:26:52.034 --> 01:26:56.774 As soon as that happens, four 10 Bridge isn't paying anybody anything to come to a meeting. 01:26:56.774 --> 01:26:58.305 We're you're the leaders of your community. 01:26:59.505 --> 01:27:00.795 You should be leading your community. 01:27:00.795 --> 01:27:14.324 But when another organization comes in and all starts un and un, oftentimes unwittingly, but still they're not thinking very deeply about it, in my view, when they, start doing things that are unhealthy, it very quickly undermines what we're trying to do. 01:27:14.805 --> 01:27:35.414 And then the last one is, that we're sending we partner with organizations corporations, but mostly churches, and we're sending people on short-term trips to engage with people and maybe doing some training or there's just a short-term mission trip experience that is a very positive thing if done, right. 01:27:36.074 --> 01:27:48.524 But what happens is a church potentially, and we've had this happen in the past, it's had a longer relationship with a community or had a com relationship with a community sending their people for a number of years, and they start thinking they have a better idea of what's going on than we do. 01:27:49.395 --> 01:27:55.755 And they come in and have hired one of the leaders as their international missionary to represent their church in this community. 01:27:56.414 --> 01:28:02.595 And then there's jealousy that's created, and there's this division that's created and it very quickly becomes unraveled. 01:28:02.625 --> 01:28:06.795 So there's a, there's an assortment of reasons why it happens but it happens. 01:28:06.795 --> 01:28:10.755 And it's oftentimes because of the west, not necessarily because of what's happening in the community, 01:28:11.385 --> 01:28:19.604 but there is also the deal with some of these leaders, as these communities begin to develop and do well, they start to prosper. 01:28:20.265 --> 01:28:21.345 They become corrupt. 01:28:23.744 --> 01:28:34.154 They can, if there's a, if there's a change in leadership a leader passes away and other leaders come in there's, this is a long multi-year. 01:28:34.215 --> 01:28:35.295 Yeah, they get it. 01:28:35.354 --> 01:28:36.284 Leadership changes. 01:28:38.654 --> 01:28:43.274 Yeah and we see the corruption in the United States government, right? 01:28:43.670 --> 01:28:44.475 It's everywhere. 01:28:44.479 --> 01:28:45.024 Everywhere. 01:28:45.029 --> 01:28:46.005 I, it's everywhere. 01:28:46.154 --> 01:28:51.465 How do you do gimme an an, underground example is knowing what you know now. 01:28:53.310 --> 01:29:08.010 When you went to Uganda that first time and you're laying those bricks, watching those guys all sitting around and the community guys all sitting around not helping at all what would you do if you found yourself in that situation again? 01:29:08.250 --> 01:29:10.590 I'd leave just 01:29:10.590 --> 01:29:11.010 like that. 01:29:11.310 --> 01:29:11.819 I'd leave. 01:29:12.029 --> 01:29:13.409 You wouldn't say anything to them. 01:29:13.439 --> 01:29:14.430 You would just leave. 01:29:15.390 --> 01:29:17.984 First place I wouldn't just show up in a community anymore. 01:29:18.539 --> 01:29:19.680 Hey, I'm here to build a building. 01:29:21.149 --> 01:29:22.140 I know that's true. 01:29:22.265 --> 01:29:26.279 That's that being invited is a, big first step, right? 01:29:26.284 --> 01:29:28.050 So there's again, there's not just one thing. 01:29:28.079 --> 01:29:30.899 So there's this process, this methodology, you call it, that we go through. 01:29:31.604 --> 01:29:40.545 But if we have a team of people from a church partner call it on the ground, and they, and this has happened where they're coming in the community to go help the community with a project. 01:29:40.604 --> 01:29:46.425 Our teams four 10 bridge teams are engaging in what's already going on in the community. 01:29:47.055 --> 01:29:50.024 We're not creating things for them necessarily to go do. 01:29:50.385 --> 01:30:00.375 So there's a project underway, let's say, and the team shows up to go start building a school building and nobody from the community is there to build the commu, the school building with this team. 01:30:00.675 --> 01:30:03.255 We'll put'em on the bus and we'll go find them something else to go do. 01:30:04.185 --> 01:30:06.465 That's great because we can't do four people. 01:30:06.614 --> 01:30:07.095 How have you 01:30:07.095 --> 01:30:18.255 done, how have how, effective have you been with those leaders that you have chosen to represent you in those different countries? 01:30:18.944 --> 01:30:20.984 That must have been a whole different thing. 01:30:21.074 --> 01:30:22.574 A, a new learning there 01:30:22.579 --> 01:30:22.904 too. 01:30:23.354 --> 01:30:23.564 Yeah. 01:30:23.810 --> 01:30:24.494 I think the best 01:30:24.494 --> 01:30:27.045 thing because you're paying those people to do that work. 01:30:27.255 --> 01:30:28.335 Oh, you're talking about our staff? 01:30:28.965 --> 01:30:29.744 I'm talking about. 01:30:29.750 --> 01:30:29.984 Yeah. 01:30:29.984 --> 01:30:37.965 So I'm the representative for four 10 Bridge in Guatemala or in Honduras or Rwanda or wherever. 01:30:37.970 --> 01:30:38.444 It's right. 01:30:39.854 --> 01:30:40.185 Yeah. 01:30:41.595 --> 01:31:00.345 The way I say that is we hire Kenyans to help Kenyans and their, Kenyon worldview of way of the way an NGO works isn't the four 10 bridge way that we work, right? 01:31:00.345 --> 01:31:06.225 So we have to retrain and re orient them on what we will do, what we won't do. 01:31:06.225 --> 01:31:08.324 And so there's a lot of training and orientation and. 01:31:09.104 --> 01:31:15.614 And education that needs to happen

and said, look but you, but again I think 01:31:15.635 --> 01:31:19.725 what's, and a lot of continuing court com communication and involvement, 01:31:20.314 --> 01:31:20.475 Yes. 01:31:20.534 --> 01:31:21.274 It's constant. 01:31:21.465 --> 01:31:22.194 It's constant. 01:31:23.414 --> 01:31:24.645 Of course I'm in the middle of that. 01:31:24.649 --> 01:31:29.744 In other words, if I'm if I'm hanging around in that culture, eventually I'll be converted 01:31:29.774 --> 01:31:30.404 to the culture. 01:31:30.675 --> 01:31:30.824 Yeah. 01:31:30.824 --> 01:31:38.595 But I think what's interesting to understand is, that, again, I'm painting with a broad brush here, but they don't like the old model either. 01:31:39.345 --> 01:31:39.494 Okay. 01:31:39.494 --> 01:31:42.015 Cause they don't like the west. 01:31:42.015 --> 01:31:42.074 So 01:31:42.324 --> 01:31:45.284 you're looking for, you're looking for people who are basically sold out. 01:31:46.215 --> 01:31:54.314 And so at the, I know this is right, I'm in, at the end of the book I, did a little thing which I thought was, I don't know, just an idea. 01:31:54.314 --> 01:32:00.885 But I said to all of our in-country staff, I didn't ask our US staff any of this, just all our in-country staff. 01:32:00.885 --> 01:32:06.524 I said, look if you were able to come over here and sit in a room full of. 01:32:07.574 --> 01:32:15.675 High capacity donors, people who had the capacity to help, they had the desire to help, and they really wanted to help. 01:32:16.064 --> 01:32:17.204 They really wanted to help. 01:32:17.234 --> 01:32:17.835 That's the title. 01:32:18.104 --> 01:32:25.515 If you really want to help and you could say anything to them that you wanted, how would you finish these two sentences? 01:32:25.904 --> 01:32:31.875 If you really want to help start doing this, and if you really want to help, stop doing this. 01:32:32.234 --> 01:32:33.465 And that's how I ended the book. 01:32:34.034 --> 01:32:37.845 I've listed them by name and I've a and I've actually put in what they sent me. 01:32:38.444 --> 01:32:39.404 Oh, how cool. 01:32:39.494 --> 01:32:51.164 They say things like, if you really want to help leave If you really want to help quit coming in and thinking that you have the answers to our problems. 01:32:52.789 --> 01:32:57.885 It's a highly convicting, I think, a beautiful, transparent, very honest, vulnerable. 01:32:59.024 --> 01:33:06.944 To the question to the West that says we are not, the poor are not a set of problems to be solved by you. 01:33:07.064 --> 01:33:09.675 We are the solution to our, so our poverty problem. 01:33:10.335 --> 01:33:13.935 Let us lead, you follow, let us solve our own problems. 01:33:13.935 --> 01:33:18.284 Help us with the capacity and the teaching and maybe the resources to go do that. 01:33:18.465 --> 01:33:31.965 But don't come in here and tell us what you need, what you think we need because you're not right And don't convey your Western broken really jacked up values on us But how many organizations do that, Charlie? 01:33:33.045 --> 01:33:36.465 We have the money and the idea and we think it should be our way. 01:33:36.465 --> 01:33:40.635 And I think that's why I get in trouble a lot with my directness and all that. 01:33:40.635 --> 01:33:44.564 But I feel like Four 10 Bridge, this methodology isn't news. 01:33:44.564 --> 01:33:48.555 Lots of things that, lots of writings on this, but we are a disruption to this. 01:33:50.175 --> 01:33:52.274 No, you are, I remember. 01:33:52.395 --> 01:33:59.685 And we have to separate, the west has to separate what we give and how we give it from our need to feel good about ourselves. 01:33:59.895 --> 01:34:00.074 We 01:34:00.074 --> 01:34:00.255 have. 01:34:00.255 --> 01:34:11.654 And how many people and how many communities have you started to, started with not started like from the beginning, but how many have you at least had to start with? 01:34:11.654 --> 01:34:17.354 And how many communities have, are you, have you, are you still with and how many have graduated? 01:34:17.359 --> 01:34:17.744 You follow 01:34:17.744 --> 01:34:17.925 me? 01:34:18.015 --> 01:34:18.164 Yeah. 01:34:18.225 --> 01:34:21.704 So we've graduated 13, we're gonna graduate our 13th, I think that's right. 01:34:21.734 --> 01:34:22.875 13th this year. 01:34:23.984 --> 01:34:32.534 We are currently working in probably I would say, call it 20 communities A now we're in Haiti. 01:34:33.015 --> 01:34:36.284 And so 13 graduated, 20 are active. 01:34:36.345 --> 01:34:37.515 And then you had some bigger 01:34:37.520 --> 01:34:38.114 number. 01:34:38.295 --> 01:34:43.694 We had some, we have, we've probably, I would say we've had, six to eight that we've had to exit. 01:34:44.295 --> 01:34:44.744 Oh, you did? 01:34:44.774 --> 01:34:45.164 Okay. 01:34:45.225 --> 01:34:46.725 And and then there's Haiti. 01:34:47.609 --> 01:34:48.659 which we had 20. 01:34:48.659 --> 01:34:49.439 What happened there? 01:34:49.805 --> 01:34:50.819 It's just a mess, man. 01:34:50.819 --> 01:35:00.869 It's just, it's a failed state and we're not, we're really unable to do our development work right now there, because of the trial, the because of the civil unrest and kidnappings and gangs. 01:35:00.869 --> 01:35:03.270 And it's just a, it's not conducive to development. 01:35:03.270 --> 01:35:03.479 Really. 01:35:03.484 --> 01:35:05.970 What it is a, relief environment. 01:35:06.000 --> 01:35:06.689 So basically 01:35:06.689 --> 01:35:09.060 you're saying it's an unstable society? 01:35:09.239 --> 01:35:11.250 It's an, it's a, I call it a failed state. 01:35:11.279 --> 01:35:11.609 Yeah. 01:35:11.880 --> 01:35:12.810 It's a failed state. 01:35:12.960 --> 01:35:16.949 Send people our, staff can't travel, so we're not able to work there. 01:35:16.949 --> 01:35:17.340 We were up. 01:35:17.430 --> 01:35:17.970 This doesn't 01:35:17.970 --> 01:35:19.199 go back to the two things. 01:35:19.229 --> 01:35:25.050 In

other words, it's not that the leaders aren't cor, you said that you fail, had failures because the leaders are become corrupt. 01:35:25.260 --> 01:35:25.409 Yeah. 01:35:25.560 --> 01:35:26.729 Or the west comes in. 01:35:27.239 --> 01:35:30.329 This is just a, an unstable environment. 01:35:30.329 --> 01:35:31.170 You can't work in that. 01:35:31.439 --> 01:35:31.770 Correct. 01:35:32.010 --> 01:35:32.369 That's correct. 01:35:32.375 --> 01:35:32.609 I got 01:35:32.609 --> 01:35:32.670 it. 01:35:32.729 --> 01:35:33.060 Okay. 01:35:33.300 --> 01:35:33.569 Correct. 01:35:34.319 --> 01:35:38.729 Alright, so then, you've been doing this 16 years? 01:35:38.850 --> 01:35:39.630 Almost 17. 01:35:39.710 --> 01:35:39.949 Yeah. 01:35:39.949 --> 01:35:40.270 It's great. 01:35:40.274 --> 01:35:40.289 Almost 01:35:40.710 --> 01:35:40.979 17 years. 01:35:40.979 --> 01:35:41.250 Okay. 01:35:41.939 --> 01:35:53.369 You've you, so you had people come alongside with, when they look at the communities, the impact that you've had and everything, the people that you've graduated they said, man, Kurt, you need to write a book. 01:35:54.569 --> 01:35:54.840 Okay. 01:35:56.100 --> 01:36:01.500 So how long ago, I'm sure that they were asking you to write a book Long ago. 01:36:02.100 --> 01:36:02.460 Yeah. 01:36:02.699 --> 01:36:03.899 For many, years. 01:36:04.529 --> 01:36:04.859 Yeah, that's 01:36:04.859 --> 01:36:05.189 true. 01:36:05.939 --> 01:36:07.109 So why did you at 01:36:07.109 --> 01:36:11.939 this point say I bet I should write that book. 01:36:12.119 --> 01:36:12.359 Yeah. 01:36:12.810 --> 01:36:13.260 Tell me how 01:36:13.560 --> 01:36:14.189 That, happened. 01:36:14.189 --> 01:36:16.199 Started writing it about five or six years ago. 01:36:16.199 --> 01:36:21.539 I don't know how long it's been, and had some chapter summaries and what got you finally started. 01:36:21.869 --> 01:36:25.439 I'm sorry, the hard part is getting started. 01:36:25.439 --> 01:36:29.130 Like you said, God told me I should just do the next right thing. 01:36:29.520 --> 01:36:32.880 When did you finally get to that first right thing on the book? 01:36:34.199 --> 01:36:47.310 Again, five or six years ago, circulated kind of proposals, chapter summaries to publishers, and basically they were saying it was too close to when Helping Hurts, which is a pretty big book in our space of how to help the poor. 01:36:47.340 --> 01:36:49.949 Yeah, I think you told me once that was the Bible for the 01:36:49.949 --> 01:36:50.430 space. 01:36:50.435 --> 01:36:50.880 The Bible. 01:36:50.939 --> 01:36:56.789 Now I hope if you really wanna help becomes the next version of that Bible because theirs is, we really love it. 01:36:56.789 --> 01:37:04.409 It's I'm a big fan of it, but it's fairly academic and I feel like if you really want to help is when Helping Hurts meets boots on the ground. 01:37:04.439 --> 01:37:05.460 That's how I see it. 01:37:05.609 --> 01:37:07.229 How do we actually go and implement? 01:37:07.560 --> 01:37:08.039 So did 01:37:09.960 --> 01:37:13.170 When helping Hurts, did they have the same look? 01:37:13.529 --> 01:37:15.989 Oh, did they have the same philosophy that you had? 01:37:16.109 --> 01:37:16.199 Yes. 01:37:16.199 --> 01:37:18.779 Were they solving the same problem to identify it the way 01:37:18.779 --> 01:37:19.199 you do? 01:37:20.789 --> 01:37:23.189 I think they did, but not in the same words. 01:37:23.369 --> 01:37:24.300 They see poverty. 01:37:24.989 --> 01:37:31.680 An issue of broken relationships between us and God, us and our environment, us and our neighbors. 01:37:31.920 --> 01:37:33.539 And so they have just different ways of saying it. 01:37:34.020 --> 01:37:35.819 And and they did it really well. 01:37:36.000 --> 01:37:37.439 I came out in 2009. 01:37:37.529 --> 01:37:38.640 We've been doing it for a few years. 01:37:38.645 --> 01:37:39.029 We loved it. 01:37:39.539 --> 01:37:42.449 And it gives, and it's a biblical foundation to it, which we really love too. 01:37:42.449 --> 01:37:43.319 So I'm a big fan. 01:37:44.579 --> 01:37:50.279 I just feel like my book today, I, and so I started at actually in earnest, started in, so what did 01:37:50.279 --> 01:37:56.130 you tell, what did you tell these publishers when you floated this idea with them and they said, eh, it just seems like this one. 01:37:56.279 --> 01:37:56.760 Why, would I 01:37:56.760 --> 01:37:57.300 do yours? 01:37:57.420 --> 01:37:57.600 Yeah. 01:37:57.604 --> 01:37:59.039 There wasn't a whole lot of conversation. 01:38:00.119 --> 01:38:00.689 There was you what? 01:38:00.899 --> 01:38:02.310 There wasn't a whole lot of conversation. 01:38:02.310 --> 01:38:03.420 It was just like, no, thanks. 01:38:06.630 --> 01:38:07.649 So, what do you do then? 01:38:07.649 --> 01:38:08.819 You say, you're telling me to write. 01:38:08.819 --> 01:38:09.899 Everybody's telling me to write a book. 01:38:09.899 --> 01:38:11.369 I wrote I, wrote a few chapters. 01:38:11.369 --> 01:38:12.090 I floated it. 01:38:12.270 --> 01:38:13.109 There's no interest. 01:38:13.380 --> 01:38:15.720 I did the next, Right thing, which was, what's that? 01:38:15.720 --> 01:38:16.890 Just put it up on the shelf. 01:38:16.890 --> 01:38:20.640 And when God wanted to open the door to go write the book, he'd open that door and I'd walk through. 01:38:20.640 --> 01:38:20.939 Okay. 01:38:21.390 --> 01:38:24.989 And that's what happened at the beginning of 2021, really. 01:38:26.340 --> 01:38:37.409 And that's when I, in, in earnest, felt like we had now several more years under our belt, more graduated communities, more learning. 01:38:38.970 --> 01:38:46.140 And I felt like there was a different story that I wanted to tell from the first one that kind of coalesced in my head and. 01:38:47.595 --> 01:38:47.864 Yeah. 01:38:48.074 --> 01:38:54.614 And, I was able, I just my problem was getting from a blank piece of paper to something that I could expand on.

01:38:54.614 --> 01:39:02.475 So I, worked with a woman named Bethany Bratcher, who helped me take out of my head put into book format. 01:39:03.345 --> 01:39:12.104 And she gave, got me started on what I wanted to say and how I wanted to organize my thoughts and the points we were trying to make, and the stories that needed to be told. 01:39:12.104 --> 01:39:14.354 And then I took it from there and and, wrote it. 01:39:15.965 --> 01:39:16.314 To 01:39:16.515 --> 01:39:17.954 the end, that question, I did have a question. 01:39:17.954 --> 01:39:26.295 It says there, there aren't there a lot of books on developing these developing communi how to do this development? 01:39:26.324 --> 01:39:26.625 Okay. 01:39:26.625 --> 01:39:27.375 And you're saying, yeah. 01:39:27.375 --> 01:39:33.104 In fact, it was one when helping her to the is, the the Bible of it all. 01:39:33.109 --> 01:39:40.185 But you're, I see what you're saying is the, reason for your book is that was a very fairly academic sort of view of things. 01:39:40.725 --> 01:39:42.704 Which wasn't incorrect, but Correct. 01:39:42.704 --> 01:39:44.114 But yours is really boot. 01:39:44.114 --> 01:39:46.454 This is how you apply this. 01:39:46.965 --> 01:39:48.255 This is one of the ways to apply it. 01:39:48.255 --> 01:39:48.734 This is how we 01:39:48.734 --> 01:39:48.944 Yeah. 01:39:49.399 --> 01:39:50.685 And it's really worked for us. 01:39:50.685 --> 01:39:51.494 And I've got proof. 01:39:51.494 --> 01:39:52.845 I'm not academic anymore. 01:39:53.055 --> 01:39:57.465 I'm, telling you what we did and I think what worked and what didn't work that's a 01:39:57.470 --> 01:39:58.154 different view. 01:39:58.364 --> 01:40:04.185 The other significant difference is, or additional additive to it is, that there's this worldview focus. 01:40:04.755 --> 01:40:17.805 So it's like when helping hurts discipling nations, how do you actually go get people to start thinking about thinking differently so they can solve their own problems, they can continue their journey of development long after you leave. 01:40:18.225 --> 01:40:20.475 How do you redefine this war on poverty? 01:40:21.435 --> 01:40:27.375 What it means to win it, what it means for the people living in poverty and how do we redefine how we fight the battle together? 01:40:27.404 --> 01:40:28.484 That's what my book is. 01:40:30.284 --> 01:40:30.975 I love that. 01:40:30.975 --> 01:40:36.555 So you got Discipling Nations, the oldest book, then you get to when Helping Hurts. 01:40:37.649 --> 01:40:44.220 Which takes the discipling nation which, takes a view of, it doesn't embrace discipling nations. 01:40:44.250 --> 01:40:44.520 Okay. 01:40:44.520 --> 01:40:47.819 It has, its, it's a standalone sort of philosophy, if you will. 01:40:47.819 --> 01:40:51.899 And then you come over with, if you really want to help, you really wanna help. 01:40:51.899 --> 01:40:55.079 And you bring all of those together and make it work. 01:40:55.199 --> 01:40:55.979 Try to, yeah. 01:40:56.069 --> 01:40:57.029 Who's your audience for 01:40:57.029 --> 01:40:57.329 this? 01:40:58.829 --> 01:41:00.510 I think it's, who should read this book? 01:41:01.109 --> 01:41:21.750 I think it's the, quick answer is there's a kind of an insider group of any global missions pastor, anybody running a nonprofit, working in the, in, in poverty environments who are willing to step back from what they do and say, am I thinking about. 01:41:23.100 --> 01:41:26.489 Properly, am I incorporating this worldview shift idea? 01:41:26.489 --> 01:41:31.800 That is the only way, in my view, to sustain solutions for the poor over the long haul. 01:41:31.829 --> 01:41:32.550 Am I doing that? 01:41:32.550 --> 01:41:44.550 So that group of people, I think also we want, I want trip participants, people that are going and working with the poor to read it before they go so they have a better understanding of what they're facing. 01:41:44.550 --> 01:41:49.500 And that just because they have the money in their pocket that they think they can solve this problem. 01:41:49.500 --> 01:41:56.250 They really need to rethink how they define poverty, how they think about poverty, what those solutions are. 01:41:56.939 --> 01:42:13.560 Cuz I say more o I say so often that the greatest risk to our development model are short-term teams going into our communities because they get emotional, they see someone in need, they wanna solve that problem, and they don't think about, you can help, but if you really want to help, here's a way to help. 01:42:13.560 --> 01:42:15.779 The how we do it is critically important. 01:42:15.779 --> 01:42:16.710 So just pause. 01:42:17.220 --> 01:42:20.760 Don't get emotional and let's figure out how to make the local church the hero. 01:42:21.479 --> 01:42:26.039 How do we, do this in a proper way where you can still help, but you can do it in a healthy way? 01:42:26.699 --> 01:42:39.390 And then I think there's a, there's another audience that's a broader audience who I would love to just read my book and apply this idea of worldview driving choices. 01:42:39.390 --> 01:42:40.949 Choices, driving actions. 01:42:41.430 --> 01:42:44.220 Because on our side of the bridge, we have a worldview problem too. 01:42:44.699 --> 01:42:48.960 And it's not just as it relates to the poor, but we are being told lies every day. 01:42:48.960 --> 01:42:49.649 By the worldview you 01:42:49.649 --> 01:42:51.420 mean our side of the bridge being America? 01:42:51.425 --> 01:42:51.779 Yeah. 01:42:51.779 --> 01:42:52.100 Yeah. 01:42:52.100 --> 01:42:52.500 Yeah. 01:42:52.505 --> 01:42:52.680 Okay. 01:42:53.159 --> 01:42:54.720 That was something I was gonna get into. 01:42:54.720 --> 01:42:55.439 This is interesting. 01:42:55.439 --> 01:42:56.310 You're bringing this up. 01:42:56.430 --> 01:42:56.609 Yeah. 01:42:56.789 --> 01:42:58.079 I think we're being told you look 01:42:58.079 --> 01:43:05.789 at the poor communities, the uneducated

communities the, indigent that we have here in America, the homelessness issues that we're dealing with. 01:43:06.630 --> 01:43:07.979 It's, very broad. 01:43:08.369 --> 01:43:08.789 It is. 01:43:09.359 --> 01:43:14.039 Because I came back from Uganda and I was sudden like, what can I do to help in Atlanta? 01:43:14.534 --> 01:43:14.984 Yeah. 01:43:15.225 --> 01:43:23.895 And I didn't even know where to start, and one of my sons was very engaged in one of those communities and he finally broke his pick. 01:43:23.895 --> 01:43:26.265 He said, I don't know what to do. 01:43:26.295 --> 01:43:34.364 There's a guy in our church who every Sunday goes through this, community, a very bad community here in Atlanta. 01:43:34.425 --> 01:43:39.284 And he rounds up 10, 12 kids, puts'em on a bus, brings'em to church. 01:43:39.765 --> 01:43:40.965 And I said, what are you doing? 01:43:40.965 --> 01:43:45.975 He says I came out of a real com bad community in la Hispanic community. 01:43:46.274 --> 01:43:47.654 I almost got killed. 01:43:47.659 --> 01:43:49.994 The guy that got killed was somebody looked like me. 01:43:49.994 --> 01:43:51.435 They thought they were going after me. 01:43:52.095 --> 01:43:54.494 So I always felt like I needed to do something. 01:43:54.795 --> 01:43:55.755 So I don't know what to do. 01:43:55.755 --> 01:43:57.975 So I just pick'em up and bring them to the church. 01:43:57.975 --> 01:44:06.194 And the reason is I want them to see what life might be To get a view. 01:44:07.845 --> 01:44:08.895 So, speak to this. 01:44:08.895 --> 01:44:12.015 So how does, how might this, your book help in. 01:44:12.449 --> 01:44:14.579 On this side of the bridge in our communities. 01:44:16.590 --> 01:44:16.859 So who 01:44:16.864 --> 01:44:17.430 should read it? 01:44:18.449 --> 01:44:22.289 Anybody running a, Anybody running a nonprofit? 01:44:22.319 --> 01:44:24.840 Working with the disadvantaged? 01:44:25.500 --> 01:44:25.560 Yeah. 01:44:25.564 --> 01:44:29.039 But even I can say disadvantaged, the poor, the homeless. 01:44:30.420 --> 01:44:35.939 I mean there's, a lot of systemic issues that we have on this side of the bridge that, that complicate that. 01:44:36.270 --> 01:44:36.899 Oh, baby. 01:44:36.930 --> 01:44:37.649 Politically. 01:44:37.649 --> 01:44:37.770 Yeah. 01:44:37.770 --> 01:44:40.770 You don't have the government over there in Uganda giving people money. 01:44:41.010 --> 01:44:41.520 Exactly. 01:44:42.720 --> 01:44:43.800 sorts of other issues. 01:44:44.079 --> 01:44:55.140 I, think I just want, I just, I hope that the book wides a platform for someone to sit back in their chair and think more critically about what they're doing. 01:44:56.130 --> 01:45:03.359 So in and of itself, this guy that's bringing these 10 or 12 kids out of that poor community and bringing the church in and of itself, that's not a bad thing. 01:45:04.439 --> 01:45:05.729 But where's the local church? 01:45:07.380 --> 01:45:08.279 With those kids. 01:45:08.310 --> 01:45:19.079 Why is D taking those kids to their church in their community, who can come alongside them inside their community and not take them outside where the, solution to their problem is this church outside their community? 01:45:19.289 --> 01:45:23.880 Again, it's really hard to be critical of that because it's not in and of itself a bad thing. 01:45:23.880 --> 01:45:29.340 But are we thinking critically about solutions that are really gonna help? 01:45:29.489 --> 01:45:30.600 That may be really 01:45:30.609 --> 01:45:30.850 difficult. 01:45:30.850 --> 01:45:37.649 I think you gotta ask yourself the question, if you are him, is to say, am I doing this because it really makes me feel good? 01:45:37.739 --> 01:45:41.220 Or am I doing this because it's really having an impact on their lives? 01:45:42.154 --> 01:45:47.279 And I would say it's probably having an impact on their lives, but is there a way to is there a better way? 01:45:47.579 --> 01:45:47.939 Is there a 01:45:47.939 --> 01:45:48.359 better way? 01:45:48.569 --> 01:45:48.649 Yeah. 01:45:49.050 --> 01:45:49.649 Maybe a little bit more. 01:45:49.649 --> 01:45:50.100 I get it. 01:45:50.130 --> 01:45:50.609 Okay. 01:45:50.760 --> 01:45:51.270 That's good. 01:45:51.274 --> 01:46:03.180 Again, I don't wanna be critical because there's a lot of people doing really great things, but stop and just, and think through, are you really helping or are you just doing the same things that you've been doing for decades? 01:46:03.810 --> 01:46:07.619 Without any outcome, without any proof that the outcomes are actually working. 01:46:07.619 --> 01:46:12.750 This is why I talk about our outcomes are what's important, not how many programs we run. 01:46:12.930 --> 01:46:13.619 No, that makes sense. 01:46:13.619 --> 01:46:14.520 Activities we undertake? 01:46:14.729 --> 01:46:16.859 Are we achieving the measurable outcomes that we want? 01:46:16.859 --> 01:46:17.819 I wish organization, one of the 01:46:17.819 --> 01:46:21.090 things that I would recommend and you brought up this. 01:46:21.090 --> 01:46:21.899 Who should read the book? 01:46:23.085 --> 01:46:35.534 You you brought up one group and you said that so many of the so many churches and particularly large churches are sending people sending kids out in a lot of cases on these mission trips. 01:46:36.265 --> 01:46:44.954 I just got somebody who's got a son who's gone on the mission trip and he said, my son needs to raise whatever the number was,$2,200 or whatever to go on this trip. 01:46:45.704 --> 01:46:53.055 The total trip is gonna cost$54,000 or something and I look at that and I go, wow that's a lot of money. 01:46:53.055 --> 01:47:01.454 But the guy said, who sent it to me, a friend, he said, when I want an admission trip it really changed my perspective on the world and on life. 01:47:01.515 --> 01:47:05.475 So it had that impact on him, and he's really excited that his son is going. 01:47:06.885 --> 01:47:16.484 I

would recommend that your book be given to each one of those kids as they're getting back on the plane to come back to America. 01:47:17.295 --> 01:47:18.015 Not before. 01:47:20.024 --> 01:47:20.564 After. 01:47:21.284 --> 01:47:31.185 Maybe, in other words, I lived it, I'm sitting in it, look, you get this free book now you're saying, and it says, and it asks you, do you really wanna help? 01:47:32.114 --> 01:47:34.425 Because now I have something to compare it against. 01:47:34.430 --> 01:47:34.744 Yeah. 01:47:35.595 --> 01:47:42.074 And I think that it would have amazing impact and, develop some really great world 01:47:42.074 --> 01:47:42.494 leaders. 01:47:43.005 --> 01:47:43.215 Yeah. 01:47:43.425 --> 01:47:54.104 We're putting, I'm putting the, I'm writing a, small group curriculum attached to the book at this currently where it's on poverty and it's this group experiential small group curriculum. 01:47:54.104 --> 01:47:55.814 So that'll be coming out in the next few months. 01:47:57.074 --> 01:48:05.625 Study plans, you version reading plans discussion plans, all to get the dialogue for people who are going to stop. 01:48:05.625 --> 01:48:08.805 And again and just reflect on Yeah. 01:48:10.664 --> 01:48:18.765 But if you can get these people called Charlie to help the poor, We're, but we're not called to to support the poor. 01:48:19.479 --> 01:48:20.774 We're, here to help the poor. 01:48:20.774 --> 01:48:26.625 And as much time in my view, it's much of that has to do with how that impacts us as it does the poor. 01:48:27.225 --> 01:48:35.984 And so that's why when we send teams and we send lots of teams from lots of churches, partners to going into our communities, it's a very relational thing. 01:48:36.975 --> 01:48:38.984 It's not about what we're going off to do. 01:48:38.984 --> 01:48:49.965 It's about who we're doing it with and can we have this, can we create this experience, cross-cultural experience where both sides of the bridge see God at work in new and exciting ways. 01:48:50.625 --> 01:48:51.975 We develop our worldview. 01:48:53.895 --> 01:48:54.944 We, love on each other. 01:48:54.944 --> 01:48:58.664 We do things, but it's not about what we do, it's about who we do it with. 01:48:59.385 --> 01:48:59.564 Yeah. 01:48:59.654 --> 01:49:05.595 Instead of being a doer of going over there and wanting to be a doer, we want people to go over there and. 01:49:06.989 --> 01:49:10.289 And that's an amazing discipleship opportunity. 01:49:10.289 --> 01:49:14.819 A lot of people say to me all the time, where you were going, he said we're gonna spend$55,000 on this trip. 01:49:14.824 --> 01:49:16.409 Wouldn't it be better if we just sent the money over there? 01:49:16.409 --> 01:49:18.479 And I'm like, no it wouldn't be. 01:49:19.829 --> 01:49:30.989 Now, in some cases it would be because some organizations are doing it so poorly and perpetuating the problem and actually disempowering people that they're going to serve, that it probably would be better not to send their people. 01:49:31.140 --> 01:49:36.210 But if you do it right, the kingdom is an, is a much better place because of it. 01:49:36.510 --> 01:49:37.529 But you gotta do it right. 01:49:37.619 --> 01:49:40.050 And it, and then, and again it's, more difficult. 01:49:40.109 --> 01:49:41.880 It's requires more training. 01:49:41.880 --> 01:49:45.569 It requires more discussion and more preparation for the community. 01:49:45.960 --> 01:49:51.810 And I'm a big fan because if I didn't go for that first trip to Bali four 10 Bridge wouldn't have happened. 01:49:51.810 --> 01:49:56.579 And we've, impacted hundreds of thousands of people over the last 17 years. 01:49:56.579 --> 01:49:58.649 That's that's been really helpful. 01:49:58.649 --> 01:50:02.850 But if I hadn't gone and seen and experienced and made all those mistakes 01:50:05.625 --> 01:50:05.744 Yeah. 01:50:05.744 --> 01:50:10.125 But I love it that God got a hold of your heart and convicted you that you need to solve this problem. 01:50:11.055 --> 01:50:16.604 It's, a business, an entrepreneur's view is they see problems and we see problems. 01:50:16.604 --> 01:50:18.255 There's problems everywhere in our lives. 01:50:18.255 --> 01:50:24.944 They surround us, but every once in a while an entrepreneur goes, that's important that we should, I know how to solve that. 01:50:24.975 --> 01:50:26.295 And that's how it gets started. 01:50:26.354 --> 01:50:27.975 I'll get started one step at a time. 01:50:27.975 --> 01:50:29.505 So you're a heck of an entrepreneur. 01:50:29.534 --> 01:50:31.574 So what's the next decade look for four 10. 01:50:31.574 --> 01:50:34.904 What's the next decade look like for four 10 Bridge? 01:50:35.685 --> 01:50:36.465 That's a good question. 01:50:36.465 --> 01:50:38.505 I would say we 01:50:39.645 --> 01:50:40.994 this will bring you to your 25th 01:50:40.994 --> 01:50:41.744 anniversary. 01:50:42.494 --> 01:50:43.604 Yeah, Wow. 01:50:46.125 --> 01:50:47.715 It's not the years, it's the miles. 01:50:48.795 --> 01:50:57.135 But yeah, I would say that we'll, expand into some, we're already looking at expanding into some more, countries, but in, we've been invited into new, countries, so I'm excited about that. 01:50:57.944 --> 01:51:03.765 I think we'll continue to refine and grow our current methodology to get better at it. 01:51:04.185 --> 01:51:13.425 But at the end of the day, I think this isn't as much about us going and helping one or 10 or 12 more communities. 01:51:14.024 --> 01:51:29.774 To me, it really is about being a disruption to this poverty space and changing the paradigm of how the West engages the poor so that other organizations stop doing what's not helpful, start doing what really helps, and then we can have a bigger, broader kingdom impact. 01:51:30.194 --> 01:51:36.704 Because we, learned very early on that we can't be successful over there without support from the West. 01:51:36.824 --> 01:51:55.755 We, need

money and resources to do what we do, but we also can't be successful in what we do until we change the paradigm of how the West engages the poor because how we define it, how we, the solutions that we put in place if we continue to define poverty as a financial problem, our solutions are gonna be all financial. 01:51:56.114 --> 01:51:59.324 And that is not gonna solve, in my view, the poverty problem. 01:51:59.864 --> 01:52:02.055 So I spent a lot of my time doing this. 01:52:02.085 --> 01:52:02.725 That's why I wrote this. 01:52:02.725 --> 01:52:05.475 I think this is, I think this is it's a good view. 01:52:05.479 --> 01:52:13.694 I'll give you a view that I give sometimes to entrepreneurs, and these are entrepreneurs that might build a 200 million company, okay? 01:52:14.055 --> 01:52:16.364 And they think wow, we're a really big company. 01:52:16.845 --> 01:52:23.835 And from a corporate viewpoint, they're basically a successful pilot. 01:52:25.784 --> 01:52:26.265 okay? 01:52:26.774 --> 01:52:33.164 That's how corporate looks at, I am a 260, about 200 billion company or something. 01:52:33.170 --> 01:52:35.444 And you tell me I got this 200 billion organization. 01:52:35.475 --> 01:52:37.034 And they go yeah, it's nice. 01:52:38.354 --> 01:52:51.119 and those are the companies they buy because they see now that product and that idea solving that problem works, now we can incorporate it into our bigger organization. 01:52:51.420 --> 01:53:02.340 And that's what you are trying to, you have a successful pilot on how to do development in how to serve the porn, developing comp countries. 01:53:02.489 --> 01:53:04.529 That's a now can, will they adopt it? 01:53:05.069 --> 01:53:08.369 It's amazing that you just said that because I met with a mutual friend this morning. 01:53:08.850 --> 01:53:09.630 Okay. 01:53:10.109 --> 01:53:12.810 That's the exact words that he used, was the word pilot. 01:53:13.020 --> 01:53:14.970 You have Oh, it was, oh my gosh. 01:53:15.029 --> 01:53:15.569 Okay. 01:53:15.569 --> 01:53:33.659 You've got these pilots and and he's, helping me work through again this, is about a movement and, it's about really, changing how the west approaches the poor with proof of these pilots that they work. 01:53:34.979 --> 01:53:35.850 Now go and scale it. 01:53:36.000 --> 01:53:40.079 I, can't, I'm not gonna scale four 10 to 200 million ministry. 01:53:40.079 --> 01:53:43.409 I just, that's not what I feel like I'm called to do. 01:53:43.414 --> 01:53:59.430 But I, do feel like we can do a much better job globally of engaging the poor if we just on this side, rethink how we do it, define it better, rethink our methodology, and again, separate what we give and how we give it from our need to feel good about ourselves. 01:53:59.645 --> 01:53:59.699 I 01:53:59.699 --> 01:54:03.329 got two more questions and we'll end this and I'll let you go. 01:54:04.289 --> 01:54:13.800 one is, so how I, wanna make sure that people understand or listen to this, how they might, what your need is financially for 10 Bridge and how they might 01:54:13.800 --> 01:54:14.250 help. 01:54:14.640 --> 01:54:17.609 Yeah we got needs, financial needs for sure. 01:54:17.609 --> 01:54:24.390 Everything that we have to do our work is sacrificially given by, people who are generous. 01:54:25.034 --> 01:54:25.845 And because 01:54:26.114 --> 01:54:27.524 you're not an organization that generates 01:54:27.524 --> 01:54:28.034 revenue. 01:54:28.125 --> 01:54:28.725 We do not. 01:54:28.994 --> 01:54:32.175 We, know we, have not, significant. 01:54:32.505 --> 01:54:34.215 We try to do some sustainability things. 01:54:34.215 --> 01:54:35.085 Mike, what's your budget? 01:54:36.104 --> 01:54:37.244 We're at about five and a half million, 01:54:37.875 --> 01:54:40.335 so you need to raise five and a half million dollars. 01:54:40.880 --> 01:54:41.385 Virtually. 01:54:42.079 --> 01:54:43.034 We need to, that's how much you need 01:54:43.034 --> 01:54:44.534 to get in Seven and a half, but, 01:54:44.534 --> 01:54:44.744 okay. 01:54:44.835 --> 01:54:45.595 Seven and a half. 01:54:45.600 --> 01:54:45.824 Okay. 01:54:46.034 --> 01:54:46.425 We're growing. 01:54:46.425 --> 01:54:46.904 Okay. 01:54:46.904 --> 01:54:57.645 We wanna go do more and we want to, there's so many more things we can go do, but so we we would love people to, one, to pray for our ministry would be is, just a great place to start. 01:54:58.454 --> 01:55:04.305 We need, we covered people's prayers for the people that we serve, for our staff, especially our staff on the ground. 01:55:04.305 --> 01:55:08.295 They're on the front lines, so prayer would be great to help us financially. 01:55:08.295 --> 01:55:09.765 We'd be really grateful for that. 01:55:09.765 --> 01:55:13.994 They can go to four 10 bridge.org and and, help us financially. 01:55:14.295 --> 01:55:20.625 Sponsoring a child is a great way to stay engaged with our ministry because we've redefined. 01:55:21.750 --> 01:55:37.800 That child sponsorship program and where you may have a one-to-one relationship with a child that you're walking with on their journey of development as they're going through school, but the resources go to lift the holistic development of that child and all of the children in that community. 01:55:39.095 --> 01:55:43.409 It's not an unhealthy one-to-one help to that child. 01:55:43.409 --> 01:55:44.579 So that's another thing they can go do. 01:55:44.579 --> 01:55:52.229 And I'd really, I think there's nothing better that somebody can do than to walk along the side, the life of a child as they're, yeah, growing up. 01:55:54.060 --> 01:55:55.229 And tell their friends about the book. 01:55:55.229 --> 01:55:57.359 Read the book see how you can engage. 01:55:57.364 --> 01:56:01.079 If your church is partnering with four 10, I think you need to go see it. 01:56:01.529 --> 01:56:04.500 You need to go serve people who can never serve you back. 01:56:06.359 --> 01:56:09.060 And

that's another way to go do that or, to help. 01:56:10.800 --> 01:56:11.430 I love that. 01:56:12.090 --> 01:56:17.250 So as I, I had, my last question was is what about you what does your next decade look like? 01:56:17.939 --> 01:56:25.710 But sounds a bit like one of the answers that you gave me was, I need to be the evangelist for this pilot that we've created, the successful pilot. 01:56:26.164 --> 01:56:26.880 That's what I see. 01:56:28.319 --> 01:56:30.119 I, think we, do a really good job. 01:56:30.600 --> 01:56:33.510 We do, we, I think we do a really good job in on multiple fronts. 01:56:33.510 --> 01:56:38.729 We're not certainly far from perfect, but I think one of the things that we do well is our methodology for the poor. 01:56:38.729 --> 01:56:42.060 But the other one is on this side of the bridge, partnering with the North American Church. 01:56:43.619 --> 01:56:59.760 And I'm spending more and more of my time these days coaching, teaching, rebuking, encouraging the, North American, the global missions within the North American church to get better at mission. 01:57:00.899 --> 01:57:08.909 And and so I think that's probably over the next 10 years, I'll probably do less and less of the four 10 bridge. 01:57:09.284 --> 01:57:09.914 Operator. 01:57:10.215 --> 01:57:13.364 And more and more of being the op ambassador for if you really want to help. 01:57:13.604 --> 01:57:16.395 Cuz if you really want to help we gotta change some things. 01:57:17.234 --> 01:57:19.515 I think that's, that is where you are. 01:57:19.604 --> 01:57:27.194 I do think that this that you need to be that ambassador because you're onto something that has certainly proven to be successful. 01:57:27.734 --> 01:57:30.675 And I appreciate, I wish you the, best with the book. 01:57:30.734 --> 01:57:36.345 I love the advice that you finally give us which is serve people who can't serve themselves. 01:57:37.244 --> 01:57:38.234 no yet can't serve. 01:57:39.015 --> 01:57:40.244 Can't serve you back, rather. 01:57:40.635 --> 01:57:46.364 They can serve themselves because your philosophy or your principle is development starts with you. 01:57:47.175 --> 01:57:47.414 Exactly. 01:57:47.954 --> 01:57:48.314 Exactly. 01:57:48.590 --> 01:57:52.215 Not with somebody on the outside, boy, I learned so much. 01:57:52.220 --> 01:57:57.944 I learned a lot reading your book and, but this has been a, real joy, spending time with you and I know 01:57:58.034 --> 01:57:58.845 my pleasure, Charlie. 01:57:58.845 --> 01:57:59.805 I appreciate you. 01:57:59.805 --> 01:58:01.055 I appreciate you letting me on. 01:58:01.055 --> 01:58:01.215 Yeah. 01:58:01.484 --> 01:58:07.875 I'll tell you, I know the entrepreneurs that listen to this and I'll end with this, Kurt, if you just hang on for a second before we cut off. 01:58:07.880 --> 01:58:16.635 But to the entrepreneurs that listen to this this is there's so many lessons that can be learned for what Kurt has accomplished here. 01:58:17.835 --> 01:58:29.085 You're on to something as an entrepreneur when a problem, you see it and you just can't let go of it and you just have to chase it and people will start coming around you. 01:58:29.114 --> 01:58:35.475 It will start working, it will start growing, and all you have to do is what he said God wants him to do, which is the next. 01:58:36.284 --> 01:58:36.944 Right thing. 01:58:37.034 --> 01:58:40.814 So thanks for joining us and I hope to see you in a future interview. 01:58:41.024 --> 01:58:41.414 Thanks, Charles.