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Sean: Well, welcome to Opio Insights. I'm Sean Jordan at RPG. And with me today is someone that's usually behind the camera, and that is Holly Wooten. And Holly is our production assistant. She's also my research assistant. And Holly just got this idea one day that she was gonna do an episode of Opio Insights. So Holly, tell us a little bit about how this came to be.
Holly Wooten: Yeah, so we were kind of talking about speakers for our best practices summit that we just did in Kansas City. And I was thinking about how the last best practices summit that I went to, they brought in a a family member of somebody who had passed away and had donated. and so I kinda took that idea and ran with it as far as asking people if like in my personal life, if they knew anybody that had donated or maybe had like been on the receiving end of a a donation. and so my an old family friend of ours, named Miss Dawn reached out to me and let me know that her mother had actually received a lung transplant from a donor. and she also actually works as a She works in a hospital and she's kind of the main go between person between their hospital and their OPO that they work with. So I kinda asked her a couple of questions about not only her mom being a recipient, but also kinda a little bit about how it works on the inside. So
Sean: Fantastic. Well, I know we gave a sneak preview of this interview to our folks that came to the Best Practices Summit in Kansas City. And I'm excited that we get to share it with our whole opio community. So here it is.
speaker-0: I know this isn't exactly what we were like meeting for, but this is like nice information because like I was talking to my boss about it and I was like, She's got the perspective of being on the inside and also. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, so that was a crazy thing because, you know, like I started, you know, in the ICU as a brand new nurse. And of course, you you know, when you're 21 years old, you think you know everything. You think you've got, you know, the tiger by the tail. And then all of a sudden you see such a different world, you know. And so my first actual personal experience with do organ donation was we had a young lady who was not much older than me at the time. She was in her early to mid-twenties, I suppose, and and ended up with gestational cardiomyopathy. So as as soon as she had the baby, she came to ICU and was waiting on a heart. And she was not gonna make it much longer. And I remember we got the call and I worked nights at the time. We got the call in the middle the night that they had a heart for her. And it look I st I still get chill bumps now thinking about it. It was the most cause she had not really gotten to see her baby hardly. You know, they and she hadn't got to hold the baby or anything, you know. And so anyway, and she got her first heart transplant. I say first because there's more to that story. But she did well, went home and, you know, got to to be a mom. And it was phenomenal. I transferred hospitals and went to, which was Baptist Central at the time, to their cent our main hospital downtown. And I worked in the cath lab there. So in the cath lab we with our heart patients, we had to do heart cats on them, looking for rejection and different things. at regular intervals. And so I got to take care of her post-transplant as well when I worked in the cath lab. So I got to see this woman over the course of many, many years. And she eventually did get rejection and needed another heart transplant. She was so fortunate she got a second heart transplant and did remarkably well with that one as well. She used to bring us cookies all the time. She was just the sweetest person. But working in the ICU and then working in the cath lab, you I I took care of patients on the transplant list. I saw a lot of them not make it, you know, more of them not make it than did, you know, unfortunately. And back then, so this was a long time ago when patients had to the drips that we had to have them on and those LVADs, you know, they couldn't go home with those. So, you know, we took care of these patients long term. and we got really attached to them. So we would get to know these people and their families really well. And it was heartbreaking, you know, to watch them waiting and waiting and waiting and you know, deteriorating and eventually not getting what they needed to survive. So that that that was heart wrenching. but then on the flip side I got to see a lot of them that just I've we had this one young man that I don't remember how old he was when he got his heart transplant, but he was young, maybe in his teens, and he he had that same heart for I mean the last time I saw him taking care of him, he'd probably had it for at least 10 years and and he still was trucking right along doing very well and so lots of good success stories there when i when i worked in the cat lab. But what's ironic is you know so my mom started getting really sick in her I guess let's see mid fifties early to mid fifties And mom would already have been a fairly healthy person. She had like Epstein Bar when I was a teenager. Oddly enough, she's the one that got mono, not me. And so, but other than that, she'd always been pretty healthy. And she started getting these colds and she just could not shake the colds. And I, you know, she would go to the doctor and the nurse practitioner saw her and said, Yep, you've got the flu. Here, do this. And she would go back because she still wasn't better. And a different person would see her. And then, you know, so the same the Tragedy was that not the same person was seeing her and everybody was treating something very benign and not looking deeper. And so finally, eventually I was like, Mother, this is not the flu, this is not bronchitis, this is not a cold. You've got to go see a pulmonologist. And so she went. Of course, they did a chest x-ray and it showed she had pulmonary fibrosis. It was idiopathic, so they had no idea
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where this came from. and again, like I said, she'd been fairly healthy, you know, her whole life. And so here she was. you know, a little bit younger than I am now and facing this terminal disease. And I'll be quite honest with you, when they called me and and told me that they were considering transplant, I told them don't do it. And the reason why was because I knew that lung transplants in particular were tough. They were very hard. First of all, it was hard to get them. The course of treatment was very, very hard and rejection rates were super high. And I just I I didn't want my parents to go through all that. You know, I didn't want my mom to to go through all that for nothing, essentially. But but they didn't listen to me, which was good. So they got to choose between Vanderbilt or or Barnes and they chose Vanderbilt because we had family in Nashville. so She went on the list when we are actually she got worked up and we went up there to see the doctors. They were not very optimistic because she was already pretty sick and they were not at all optimistic that she was gonna survive to transplant. And I Holly, I'll never forget we were sitting down there. I I went down to X ray with her and we were sitting there and we'd we'd had the meeting with the with the team, with the transplant team, and she said, they weren't very optimistic, not very positive. And I said, No, ma'am, they weren't. And she and I said, But mom, they have to be very honest. I said, it's not fair if they're not honest to you. It's not fair to you. It's not fair to those people that, you know, make the gift of life by donating. if we're not very, very particular and very honest with everyone. And she said, That's okay. I'm not scared. And so of course my mother was very devout Christian, you know, she's extremely devout. So she was not afraid of dying. And so of course I was scared to death to lose her. And I I'll never forget one day I was sitting in my bathroom and I was crying and this was, you know, things weren't looking good, you know, and Caitlin, little b Caitlyn came in and she said, Mommy, why are you crying? And I said, Well, I said, I because I don't want my mom to die. And and she said, Well maybe, maybe she will get better. And I said, No, that would take a miracle. She said, Well maybe she'll get a miracle. And I said, I don't think so this time, baby. And so she put her hands on my face and she said, You know what, mommy? She said, Grandma loves Jesus so much. She'll be so glad to see him. Girl, I lost it. I'm not disturbing I was like, I know, but I don't want her to go. I'm I'm I'm selfish and I want her to stay here with me. And so Miracle of all miracles. I I was working in the Catholic lab at that time and every weekend I drove to Nashville. I drug me and my three kids up to Nashville every weekend to go see her and visit with her family and everything, try to give dad a break for a couple hours. And this particular weekend, we went up and I got there
and no one was home at my my aunt and uncle's house. They always left the doors unlocked and they did not live in a good part of Nashville, I'm telling you. But anyway, so walk in the house and nobody's there. So I'm freaking out. Where the heck is my mom? Where is my aunt? You know. And my cousin walks in. He goes, you didn't know. And I of course I didn't have my cell phone. That back then we didn't turn our cell phones on just for casual calls, you know. And so she had gotten the call and she they told her she there was a lung. They had as a matter of fact, she was so sick that that they made her move to Nashville to be closer. That way she had a better chance of getting the transplant. So Anyway, got there and as it turned out the the lung was not it was not okay. so and it ironically I was supposed to be on call that weekend for the calf lab and last minute that's why they didn't call me to is because they weren't expecting me. Last minute somebody came in and said, Go Nashville, I'll take your call, go on up. And so we calfed that person out of at my hospital. If I had not been on call would have been cathing the patient that was a potential donor for my mother. It was crazy. So anyway we we spent the whole day, you know, getting worked up for it to not be the the one, which is pretty typical, which a lot of people don't know. so, but then the next weekend I went up and when we were getting ready to leave on Sunday, I was crying. And ironic Tim, my first husband, went with us and that we were still married. And he never went up there with me, but he went that weekend for some reason. And I was crying on the way when we were leaving. He's like, Why are you crying? And I said, Because I'm pretty sure that's the last time I'm ever gonna see my mother alive. And he's like, Well, do I need to turn around? I was No, I'm on call tomorrow. I've got to go back to work. I can't, you know, just I mean, there's no way for me to know that for sure. And I can't not work. And so we went home and that night about nine o'clock I got another phone call saying they had gotten another donor. And so I drove like a bat out of hell. I made it in less than two hours from Arlington to to Vanderbilt.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: And my brother rode with me and I scared him to death. But we made it there and and she got the transplant this time. And she did remarkably well. She she was on the ventilator a little bit longer than the person that got her the her donor's other lung. so she didn't bounce back as quickly as he did, but she did really well. my mother was a rule follower to the nth degree. If they said do this at nine o'clock, she did it at nine o'clock by golly. She carried her medicine and her notebook everywhere she went. If we went to Walmart, The medicine and the notebook went with us. It stayed in the car, but it went with us just in case, you know. So and she did remarkably well. My one of my favorite photographs that that I always show around here when we talk about is my mom deep sea fishing after her transplant. And yeah, she they they they didn't get to travel out of the country anymore, but but they still they did a lot and you know they were very active with their church group and she got to see all three of my kids. Joseph doesn't remember my mother very well. But if she he remembers her. He doesn't remember he remembers her being very sick. but had she not had her transplant, he wouldn't remember her at all. So that that to me is a big deal, you know? Yeah. but she got to be there for confirmations and baptisms and all kinds of stuff that you know, she would have missed otherwise and we would have missed her time. So she she lived almost five years after her transplant. she started having rejection and started having some neurological symptoms that were really, really odd. the December before she passed away in March. And they ended up hospitalizing her and she stayed at Vanderbilt for three months and then we brought her home for a week before she passed away. but at the end we were able to bring her home and we all got to be with her and the kids got to be there and so yeah, there was I think of so many things that you know we wouldn't have been able to have with my mom if she had not had the transplant. And as I told you in my message, she was really torn and she she and I talked about this a lot. Like I said, she was not afraid of dying. But what tore her up was that it her lung came from a fifteen year old boy. And his name was Scotty. And he was a VMX motocross, motocross. And in Middle Tennessee. And there had been a he was in a competition. There had been a wreck on the field or course or whatever they call it. And there was kids doing the flags and they didn't flag it. And so then he came over the hill. and crashed into the people that had a wreck and a pr another person came and landed on top of him and killed him. So it was a really tragic. He he though at 15 had already chosen to be a donor. And so his family had great peace with it. Mom got to have exchange some letters with them before before she passed away. So so she still struggled with that a lot though, even to the end. Which I think for any recipient is always gonna be, you know, always gonna be something they struggle with. what I see with our donor families, a lot of times, Holly, I think I will honestly tell you the thing that that I think is the hardest for them. For those people that are self designated like me, I tell my driver's license, I'm a donor. And I've told my family this. You don't die right away necessarily. Like if they deem you, okay, you're gonna be a donor, we're putting you, we're gonna do all these tests and everything to get you ready to make sure, you know, who's gonna get your organs if it's all suitable. So it's it's a series of a couple of days at least, usually after the determination is made. and some people arrest during that time and we have to resuscitate them. And that's really
hard for the donor families. to see their loved one. You know, they've already made that determination and now they're having to see them being put through what they really didn't want them to be put through. And I think if we could do more education in the public for that, and I don't even know how you do that. I don't know how you broach that subject, how you teach people that, but that's been hard for we've had a couple of families here that that's been the case for and that's been very difficult for them. And I've told my family that, like, I'm gonna be a donor and once they've decided that that's that it's the time and they're doing all this, if I arrest, they're gonna resuscitate me. If you guys can't handle that, go home. Yeah. I'm not there anymore. You can go home and be okay with that. So I think that's part of it is we have to give our families the freedom to make that decision to leave, you know, if they can't, because That's the hard part of it, you know.
speaker-0: Yeah. And it's funny that you mention that because that is a lot of when we talk to the actual like hospital partners, that is something that they bring up a lot, like wanting more education for the public for these kinds of things. Because there is so much of it that's like it's not just boom, here's a heart, give it to this person. There's a lot more that goes into it. So it's it's funny it's kind of funny that you mention that because we hear that a lot on our end. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, because I mean, I'll tell you, like right now, if you asked me if I had to make that decision for my mom again, would I make that same decision? Would I tell her yes, you need to do this? I would. And part of it's selfish because I did get four almost five more years with my mom and my children got to see my mom more. my dad would probably tell you no. Because it was really hard on him losing her. Yeah. And it felt like the you know how they say Alzheimer's is a long goodbye.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: This is a long goodbye, you know. Yeah. but but he he would also tell you he had they had some great years. you know, my mom my mom loved flowers and she loved a garden. They had a beautiful garden back behind their house. She loved her hummingbirds. She put the feeders out. She loved nothing more than sitting out there watching her hummingbirds and she got to do that, you know. and she actually was very active with the transplant group too. She she talked to people that were thinking about being donors or families that had lost a loved one and and that sort of thing. She talked to them. So she also donated her body. Well, not donated her body, she agreed to have an autopsy done. post-trans I mean after she died. Even though we paid for it. I'm I we my dad paid for it for them to take her up there and because they had to take her back to Vanderbilt and they did the autopsy and they brought her back because she wanted them to be able to draw the, you know, biopsies and blood specimens,
whatever they needed to do more testing and everything. So they could hopefully find ways to reduce the chance of rejection, potentially find some answers to what caused the idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis and you know, those kinds of things. So she was committed enough to even do that after death. So you know, to her, I think she would say it was worth it. So so what questions do you have? I've been talking a lot.
speaker-0: No, you're fine. I I kind of was just gonna let you like tell your story and whatnot and whatever stories that you felt like telling as far as your experience with donation and whatnot. 'Cause like I said, I mean, I guess 'Cause we like I said, we do also talk with the heart hospital partners and we do two summits. So the first one is the one I mentioned where we're talking more with like the family services people. And then the second one is gonna be talking with more of the kind of the people that you maintain contact with that are more of the hospital partner side of stuff. so I guess do you In that regard, I guess, would you say that there's anything other than like more public education that you feel like could be done to make donation more positive for people that are just, you know, like lay people that aren't in the industry and don't know
speaker-1: Yeah, I think that definitely education starting sooner. one thing too, you know, I don't remember where I think this may have been on social media like TikTok or something where a family experienced something similar like what I was talking about a minute ago, and they wanted to pull back the the consent because I don't remember exactly what was going on with the donor. but they couldn't and they felt it was wrong that their voice didn't matter really at that point. And they their point was my loved one, mother, father, whatever, consented to this without knowing what they were consenting to. And so you know, I think education earlier, because we start talking to people obviously at 15 or 16 with their license. But they don't know what really they're getting into, you know, essentially. So I think we need to do better education in schools. the problem is is it becomes so It's almost taboo, you know, because there's some religious aspect to it, some people think, even though it's really not. and then there's a lot of cultural taboos related to it. So they you have to be so careful about what you talk about in schools and and everything. I see your little tuxedo
speaker-0: Yeah. He's been trying to feature himself here.
speaker-1: but yeah, they I don't I really don't know the answer. That's what I say. I wish I knew the answer. If I did, man, I would be talking to everybody about it. I just don't know what the answer is. be it's ironically, when I was married to my second husband, his father died unexpectedly. His mother was a nurse, she was an LPN. And when the transplant team approached them, He was livid. He told me later, how dare they talk to me and my mom when we were grieving like that? I mean, we had just very unexpectedly lost my father, and they're over there talking about transplant. And I said, It's very time sensitive. They can't wait until your grief is over, until you've processed that it doesn't work that way. so but sh she was upset too. And I was like, You're a nurse, you should understand this, you know. So grief does things to you, first of all. But you know, so I really don't know what the answer is with education. One thing I would say about in the hospital, the the the transplant partners that are here in the hospital, have got to be so discreet and Mm. Careful. W because, you know, they're excited when they see okay, this family is agreed, yes. And we're going through all the work up and everything. They're excited when things are going right. You know, they're excited for this person that that is out there waiting. Unfortunately, the hospital staff here don't see that. They see this person here and their family that is losing, you know. And so they have got to be very conscious of that. you know, and and adapt appropriately. Be it be quietly excited about yes, this family, my mom is gonna have an opportunity for this miracle, but this family does not. You know, this family is at one of their very worst moments of their entire life, probably, you know. so I I don't know how that gets taught either, but there's gotta be better balance with that. And that I think that's one thing that it what I hear from clinicians and not just here, but other places, they feel like, you know, there's there's this team that's looming over them waiting, waiting for death, waiting for death. And they're waiting for life.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: It's just on the other side, you know. but we've just got to do a better job of that, you know.
speaker-0: Is there of course you've got the expertise of being kind of on both sides of it where you've experien you experience the the being given life with your mom and then you also experience the other side of it as far as like working in the hospital and stuff. Is there anything given what you know, is there anything that you with was told to you like when you were going through the process with your mom? Is there any information that you kind of wish you got beforehand or maybe something that was explained to you by the OPO at all? Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: I think that they that Vanderbilt did such a really good job of working with my dad and and my brothers and I. I think my brothers probably weren't quite as prepared for rejection, organ rejection. Of course I like I said, I, you know, I dealt with that on a on a very regular basis with patients I cared for. But I think that that was the the inevitability of rejection, was something they weren't prepared for. so I my one of my brothers in particular was a little angry. He was like, I had no idea that, you know, I mean, he knew that five years was about the limit, sp statistically speaking, you know. But I think he
thought because she was so compliant, so manically compliant that she was gonna beat those odds. You know what I mean? Right. And And it's really not, I mean, it it is, you do have to take your medicines, obviously. but it's really not about that at some point. At some point it's just biology, you know. And and I think that him being a lay person, he was not quite as prepared for that as I was. So that would be the really the only thing. They they Vanderbilt did a fantastic job. their team and like I said, they for as a recipient family, not a donor family, as a recipient family, they were very upfront with us. I mean, unfortunately Pat and John, my two brothers, weren't able to be there w at the family meeting. when when we were getting worked up initially, my uncles and my dad and I were there. so they didn't they didn't see everything that, you know, like like my mom said, they weren't very positive. But they did a really good job of of really setting the stage of, you know, the likelihood of this happening is very slim. And and then even when we do that, your survival, initial survival, is not great either. And then once you make it past that, you've got, you know, a number, your days are still numbered, you know. so they were very upfront. And I think that probably helped my dad a lot. So if I had to say anything, I would say, For the families that are waiting that that are on the transplant list, they need to understand that. they need to understand the real statistics of this.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: You know, it's still better than zero, first of all. Yeah. I mean, for most people. I mean, I like I said, I didn't want my mom because that's what I was looking at from the outside was I don't want her to go through all this to live a year, you know. or not even a year some p sometimes, you know. But but they I think everybody needs to be pair prepared for this the real statistics of it. And they need to make that decision from that perspective, that informed perspective. And from the donor side, for these families, you know, The most important thing I can say about that is talk to your families. Yeah. I the number of people that we have that come into the hospital that have checked that box on their license and have not had a discussion with their family. is remarkable. I mean, I it it's I'm fibbergassed at how you could check that box and not talk to your family about why. You know. but I think I think if there that's probably some education that needs to happen. You know, if you check the box, talk to your family. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: And here's how, you know, a pamphlet, here's how to tell your family what you want. You know, and not the five wishes. I mean, I'm talking about I want to be a donor and this is you know.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: So that that would that would probably be it.
speaker-0: Yeah. And then would you so you mentioned that your mom did have some contact with the the the boy that donated his lung.
do you Would you have done anything about that differently at all?
speaker-1: No, I mean Having the opportunity to meet with his family and to talk with his family made gave my mom a tremendous amount of comfort. I will say this, they they reached out first. And so mom was able to have that contact with them long before they normally let that happen. so if I if you could change anything, I would say make it happen sooner.
speaker-0: Yeah. And I know 'cause I know sorry, go ahead.
speaker-1: Go ahead. No, you go ahead.
speaker-0: I was just gonna say that I know from the last summit that we did back in twenty twenty four, I know the question of like censoring that contact information and names is a big yeah, it's a very hot topic. Yeah. So I know some people censor it, some people don't. So that's kind of where that question came from.
speaker-1: Well, I think I think it has to be censored, initially.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: and you know, the that was the thing about Scotty's family is they wanted to speak with my mom. And like the you see the the beautiful videos of the families that listen to their person's heart, you know. obviously we have to exchange names for that to happen. so you know, but the censoring I think is Very important. But even censored, even had she not gotten past the censored letters, I think that would have still brought her a lot of comfort. I I mean, I know that it did bring her comfort when she got to look at those letters. So yeah, even with that, it was still better, you know, to it because she felt so much guilt about it. Like, why did this young man have to die and I get to live? You know, and I was like, That's that's that's not for you. That's not a you question. You don't or you answer, you don't get that answer. That's a God answer, you know.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: And it's he didn't have to die so you can live. He happened to die and you have the opportunity to live.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: And so it's it's it's all, you know, people it's semantics, but those are important sometimes, you know. Yeah. but yeah, no, I I think For a lot of people, I think that's very I can't imagine being a recipient and not having some amount of that guilt. and and that contact goes a long way towards easing that guilt.
speaker-0: Right.
speaker-1: I think for the families, like I know as just working here when I get letters from the foundation saying, Hey, just so you know, five families, you know, or five recipients were helped by this. You got, you know, somebody had their vision restored and this person got to come off dialysis or whatever, you know. even I'm not the one making that that tremendous gift, but even knowing that people have benefited from that makes it makes it worth it the, you know.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: So yeah, even getting that letter, knowing that you as a as a donor family helped touch that many lives I know has got to be a great relief for them. You know.
speaker-0: Yeah. And then does the OPO that your hospital work with? I know more recent years they've started doing like honor walks and things like that. I know some of do for like veterans, they may do like a flag signing or things like that. do you get to participate in those at all at your hospital?
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, we open it up to everybody. We so usually and actually our recovery surgeries don't always happen in the middle of the night, which a lot of places they do. so it happens during the day here a lot. And so we open it up to everybody. We announce it in our meeting, and then we announce it overhead at the hospital that we're doing an honor walk and invite everyone to participate. it it the l actually the last one that we had I didn't go to because I was not emotionally prepared to do it. And because it it's emotional for everybody and as it should be. And but yeah, and we and we have done the flag for the donors. We didn't do the signing, but we have put the flag over their body as they go to surgery. so yeah, it's I think the honor walks are a great a great thing to do for many reasons, you know, besides letting that family know what a tremendous gift this is and how seriously we all take that gift and how precious it is is one thing. But also letting everybody in this building know that is also important because there's so many healthcare workers that have decided to not be donors. And that's their decision to make. I feel like a lot of them make it uninformed.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, so I'll you know, that was one year, so we had gr blue and green day here every April, or we did with Mid South Transplant. And so I've done all of those for the last several years. probably ten years or so. But one year I had seven new peop people sign up during that day. And so for me that was quite satisfying to have put this on and actually got seven people to sign up. So and they were all people that worked here. So now I tell you the last couple of years I haven't put that much effort into it because our OPO, one of the people there really ticked me off. And I was like, I don't have to put 'cause I spent hundreds of dollars every year of my own money putting this thing together, you know, and a lot of my time. And I did that in honor of my mother, you know. And but she's not even there anymore. But but anyway I was just like mm mm no. I'm not doing this to make you look good, so
speaker-0: Yeah. Like we've got it
speaker-1: It's a sensitive topic, yeah. You know.
speaker-0: Yes. Well, 'cause I I meant I it's fun again, it's funny that you mention that kind of stuff because that is the kind of stuff that we hear when we when we talk to the hospital partners and stuff that like you know, it's sometimes their attitudes or the way that they are can detract people from wanting to donate and stuff and wanting to be a donor. And so it's it's I get it because I was definitely like before I started working more directly with this You know, the whole industry. I was
very dubious about donation, but like being able to see the other side of it and the other, you know. Mm-hmm. Like I said, we also interviewed donor families. So like hearing their feedback and the fact that yeah, you're you're gonna have people that have had a negative experience. Of course, the whole thing surrounding it is a negative experience, but the overwhelming majority of the people that we speak to for or reports have nothing but good things to say. And it's just very unfortunate that one or two bad people can just spoil that whole thing. Because it it is like you said, it's it's it's important and it's it's a s very special thing to be on both sides of it. Like like you said, unfortunately yes, somebody has to pass away, but it's not The positives that come from it make it not as much of a negative. And it's very unfortunate that people can't see that as much.
speaker-1: Mm. Yeah. And that's kind of my thing is, first of all, it's the way I can do something for humanity that costs me zero, first of all.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: You know, I can make a tremendous difference in someone's life. And it's completely pain free and cost free for me, you know. Yeah. not pain free for my family, maybe, but But secondly, if people could understand the the other side of it, the flip side of it, this taking something so tragic and sad and turning it into something life giving or sight giving or you know, because even like I think of our kidney transplant patients. Kidney transplant patients do remarkably well. You know, they can go decades and be dialysis free. And so if you've never known anybody that's been on dialysis, that means nothing to you though. but if you know anything about people on dialysis, it takes up three days of their week. They can't work, they can't enjoy going to Thanksgiving dinner with their family because they can't eat all that. You know, they can't have all those same things. They can't, you know, drink the punch or the champagne or even the sweet tea at the table. You know, they can't have that protein. They can't have all that sodium. It the joy from their life has been zapped, you know. And you have the ability to give them back their joy in their life, or some of their joy at least. And maybe the ability to be a productive member of society again, which is really important to most adults, you know. So you know, some people go, the ability to go have a job again, you know, but for most people that's really important, you know. Yeah. And and sight, I mean, that goes without saying. I mean, if you could give someone the gift of sight. That's amazing. We're not even talking about like life. We're talking about just of you know, quality of life stuff.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: So, yeah. So yeah, if I I just wish people could see the other side of it a little bit more clearly. it's I'd I we have to figure out how to remove that. You know, there's so many incorrect beliefs about it, you know, about the religious beliefs
and that sort of thing. As far as I know, there's no religion that says you can't donate your organs or tissues. Jews can do it, Catholics can do it, Muslims can do it. so you know, I don't know if maybe there's some small sex of religion that say no, but the big ones say you can, so you know. but It it's it's just we've gotta remove that stigma.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: So
speaker-0: Yeah. And it kind of ties back in with what you said earlier about providing like community education and stuff. It's just especially with, you know, all the negative news that's going on, just because like yeah, there's probably some bad actors here and there, unfortunately. But for the most part, organ donation is not just that one little mistake. Well, little but that one machine. Yeah. So it's like it's just it's just very unfortunate that like I said, it's just people see that stuff and it's so like drilled in and ingrained that that's all you think about when you think about it. And it's like, no, there's like this whole other side of it. Like like with your mom, like you were able to spend nearly five years, four five more years that you know. Yeah. So it's just Yeah. Mm-hmm. Like I said, I get it. I was I was dubious of it for a while before being able to like work more directly with it. But it's seeing
speaker-1: Just
speaker-0: that feedback from the families and like hearing stories like yours is like, wow, like this is really special. Like this actually it's a lot bigger than just me and it it means something to a lot more people than just me or, you know, my family or anything like that. So
speaker-1: You're right. That that that's it right there in a nutshell, Holly. Is it this is this is a gift beyond you. This is Yeah. This is this is not about you. I mean, honestly, you know. Yeah. and I don't mean you, you, I mean you.
speaker-0: You the individual yeah.
speaker-1: So it it's about humanity and what we do for each other and just trying to make someone's life better, you know, or give them life, you know, that miracle. But you know, I think about this is this is probably a horrible analogy and don't play this part for anybody else, but talk about the bad apple or whatever. it's humanity. They're humans and yes, there are bad people in every segment of every bit of humanity.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: Just gotta be the good.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: So you've got to we can't let them win. You know, we can't let them be the the ones that dictate how things go. so. I mean
speaker-0: Yeah, everybody's got some weirdos in there, so yeah.
speaker-1: Exactly, exactly. There's some bad people in transplant. Yeah, there's some people that maybe, you know, ha are in it for the wrong reason or became greedy or whatever. but you can say that about anything. There's doctors out there that are in it for the wrong reason. There are accountants that are in it for the wrong reason. I mean, I don't know, you know, you got people doing Ponzi schemes. You got
people I mean, there's bad everywhere if you want to look for it.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: And and s bad sticks with us more than the good, you know. We cling on to that for some reason. I don't know why.
speaker-0: Yeah, and it just doesn't help that it's like I said, it's just so like drilled in and of course it's like another analogy is like with plane cra crashes. You're gonna hear about almost every plane crash, but you don't hear anything about all the successful flights that happened. And like yeah, that's scary and that's terrifying, but at the same time, the odds are it pretty good. So
speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So but yeah, I'm happy to help you any way I can, Holly. you know, if you think of something later and you want to text or whatever, be happy to. you know, I what I wish we could do here locally is I wish we could do more stuff actually in the 'cause doing stuff in the hospital is great. I mean, yeah, having our day here at the hospital where we try to raise awareness and we bring speakers in and I give away cupcakes and I used to do games and stuff. Like I would do games to get people to come to the table. I was like a carnage, come play my game. And while they were over there we would talk about transplant and stuff like that. So and I gave away prizes and all kinds of stuff. and that's great. I'm reaching a really small group of people.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: You know, I just wish that in the actual community there could be more events where and I I know Wanda's one of the people that OPO that I work with, she's a nurse that she used to work here actually. And she talks about that all the time. I wish we could get into the community more. But you know, she's like, if you're already doing a health fair, let me know. We would love to have a table there. We'd love to be at your skills fair, we'd love to do this. You know, they try so hard to get out there, but
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: It's really hard because again, it's kind of it's got that stigma, the taboo, and people don't want you bringing down their their party atmosphere by talking about, hey, when you die, can we have your stuff?
speaker-0: Mira.
speaker-1: So yeah, but I I wish we could find a way to get out in the community more. So
speaker-0: Yeah, likewise, like that's that's the biggest thing 'cause it's I mean, I learned a little bit about it in Driver's Ed, but it was still just like maybe an hour talk that somebody came and did and not you know Yeah. Like I said, I was still dubious about it. So Yeah.
speaker-1: Well and you think about right now, I mean, so we've got the boomers and and Gen X dying, you know.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: And I can tell you I didn't get any education about this ever, and neither did the boomers, you know.
speaker-0: I for example, I didn't even know that some older people can still donate because apparently their skin, with it being a little bit more elastic, is good for like massectomies and stuff like that.
That was something I n I've learned since I've started working more directly with them. So that you know, I'd that's the kind of stuff that's like I wish more people knew about that because it's not just like, well I'm too old to do XYZ. Well, not really, 'cause You could still do A B C instead.
speaker-1: Well the thing too for me is like with eye donors, you you can be blind and still donate your eyes. You know, and sometimes it's just so they can do research. But other times, you know, what they need your blindness is is a a neurological thing, not not a a retina or a cataract, I mean or a eyeball thing, you know. so nothing wrong with your eyeball and that's what we need, you know. So Yeah, and you know, and I When when I was a brand new nurse, I probably hadn't been a nurse six months and I got to see them come and retrieve an an eye and 'cause they were like, You want to or two, actually, they took both of them. they were like, 'You wanna come in?' I was like, Nah, absolutely not. Nope. Mm-mm. And they're like, Why? And I was like, It's eyes. That's that's mm, I don't know. They're like, Come in, it's not it's not what you think it is. And it it really wasn't. It was just very clean cut and quick and Not at all what I expect it. So even as a nurse I had, you know, some some incorrect perceptions. So
speaker-0: Yeah. So Yeah. I didn't you just taught me something I didn't know still 'cause I didn't realize that you could still donate eyes even if you were blind. So interesting. Depending on what cross the ball.
speaker-1: Yeah. Depends on what caused the blindness, you know, and what they're looking for. But yeah. And yeah, so you know, here's my so here in Memphis we have the Mary Center. which so we have UT. You can donate your body to UT, but UT usually won't take your body if you donate your organs. They won't complete corpses, but the Mary Center will. So I plan on donating my body. They can take organs, tissue, whatever they need, and then the rest of me can go to the Mary Center. And then the Mary Center does all kinds of different research. That's what it is. It's a medical research center. And they do ballistic stuff. They put fake joints in dead people and you know, I mean, they do all kinds of stuff. Again, I don't care. I'm dead. What's left behind is left behind. It's
speaker-0: What am I gonna do with it? Right, exactly.
speaker-1: they can use me as a punching bag if they want to. I don't care. Now the family probably has other feelings about that, but I've told them this. I've told them that. I said it's research. They they no telling what kind of research they might be doing. They could send me out to the body farm if they wanted to, I guess, if they're in ill anyway and they are affiliated with U T. They could send me out there and let me rot in the sun if they want to, but you know I don't care.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: So I just most people are not that apathetic about it for some reason though.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, and I guess that that's probably is where people's reservations come from because they do hear things like that and that's that kinda turns them off and kind of freaks them out a little bit, which it's like I could see that. I I understand that feeling, but at the same time it's you know, we have so many scientific advancements because of things like that. So it's you know, yeah, it's a little it can be a little odd and it feels a little jarring at first, but you know.
speaker-1: Whatever research they do may be helping my grandchildren. Who knows? Exactly.
Sean: Well, Holly, wow, here you are. Now you're an interviewer. So thank you so much for doing that for us. that was a fantastic interview. And I am grateful to both you and Miss Don for being on the show.
Holly Wooten: Yeah, and I'm I really enjoyed getting to speak with her. I do want to shout her out and just give her a thank you. I know I said it in in our interview while I was actually talking to her, but I really appreciate her taking the time to speak with me about this because I'm pretty sure she actually took her lunch break to speak with me at all. So that was really great and it's I think I spoke about it a little bit last week at the the summit, but it really does drive home how important the process is and it's kind of one of those things where it's putting a face to the people that are actually behind all this and it was just really great to hear from her.
Sean: Well, that is fantastic. And I want to mention that, you know, we are honored to be a part of the work that we do with the opio community. And often we'll hear these connect to purpose talks. And here we are. We're we're connecting the purpose of what we do as well to the work we get to do with the opio world. So thanks, Holly. And I want to mention as well, for any of our folks in the opio community that are listening, we would love to have you on as a guest to tell your story. So if you could go to researchplan.com/slash Opio Insights Guest. And we'll put that in the show notes as well as Holly, if you could put that up on the screen there for us when you produce this episode, that'd be fantastic because we would love to have more folks. And we do have more folks coming up. In fact, we've got some really fantastic interviews on the way. So be sure to go to opioinsights.substack.com to sign up for our newsletter, and you'll be notified about all these, or you can find me on LinkedIn as well, where we often announce these. So thanks so much. And Holly, since you're on, why don't you go ahead and sign us off this week?
Holly Wooten: Well, thanks everybody for listening or watching, depending on how you're viewing us. and we just appreciate everything you guys do. So tune in next time.