النص الكامل لحلقة AI Concerns with Mark Seemann

--> 00:02:43.719 think about things, and in particular the nihilism attitude about 38 00:02:43.840 --> 00:02:47.840 why should I, why should I try? Why should I 39 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:51.560 go to college? Why should I better myself? Because the 40 00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:54.400 AI is going to take my lunch. There's no entry 41 00:02:54.479 --> 00:02:57.439 level jobs anymore. Like it's a very kind of a 42 00:02:57.520 --> 00:03:00.319 dark place that the gen Zers are incause how of 43 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:03.360 their experience and because of what has happened in the 44 00:03:03.400 --> 00:03:06.919 last few years, and I think, yeah, Mark is nodding 45 00:03:06.919 --> 00:03:09.960 his head, we're going to get into this. This is 46 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:13.280 a good point for me to mention that I have 47 00:03:13.360 --> 00:03:17.080 a TikTok carl at atfenex dot com, and one of 48 00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:20.800 the first things that I've done is a video that 49 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:26.439 basically says, AI is no excuse. It's no excuse to 50 00:03:26.719 --> 00:03:30.280 give up, to stop learning, to stop trying to be 51 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:32.800 the person that you wanted to be when you were 52 00:03:32.800 --> 00:03:35.360 a kid, whatever it is. You know your hopes and dreams. 53 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:38.479 Don't give up. You know, we don't know what's going 54 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:41.400 to happen in the AI future. We don't know if 55 00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:43.439 what the jobs are they are going to be available, 56 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:46.599 but we do know this, if you just try to 57 00:03:46.599 --> 00:03:50.199 be the best whatever that you can be, you have 58 00:03:50.319 --> 00:03:52.719 a better chance of surviving no matter what the AI 59 00:03:52.879 --> 00:03:57.960 landscape is. Here's an example. You want to go into 60 00:03:58.039 --> 00:04:03.479 a trade, let's say carpentry because that's an AI proof, 61 00:04:03.800 --> 00:04:08.240 So you think profession. But then you think, oh, well, 62 00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:10.319 you know the robots are going to just start building 63 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:13.120 houses and all that stuff, so why bother. Well, here's 64 00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:16.600 why you should be the best carpenter that you can 65 00:04:16.639 --> 00:04:19.600 possibly be. So that when the robots do come and 66 00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:23.480 they're affordable, and construction people general contractors are hiring them. 67 00:04:23.560 --> 00:04:27.800 You're the boss because you're awesome, and that's how you 68 00:04:27.879 --> 00:04:30.120 got to be the boss, and then you can hire 69 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:32.680 the robots to work for you. Do you know what 70 00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:34.959 I'm saying. I mean, it's a weird example and it 71 00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:38.600 probably isn't going to be true anytime soon, but it's 72 00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:41.439 no excuse to stop trying and to stop learning and 73 00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:44.079 to just put the brakes on your life and resign to, 74 00:04:44.879 --> 00:04:46.759 you know, flipping burgers for the rest of your life, 75 00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:48.600 you know, unless that's what you want to do. 76 00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:51.279 So anyway, although let's face it, flipping burgers is far 77 00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:52.079 more automatable. 78 00:04:52.199 --> 00:04:56.000 Yes, yes, yes, so so anyway, I highly recommend this, 79 00:04:56.360 --> 00:04:58.759 and by the way, check out my TikTok because I 80 00:04:58.839 --> 00:05:01.839 have a bit to say about this that will continue 81 00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:05.759 this conversation, I'm sure. So that's when I got Richard 82 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:07.000 who's talking to us today? 83 00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:10.199 Well, knowing we were going to get philosophical today. When 84 00:05:10.199 --> 00:05:13.079 I was taking around for a comment, I grabbed one 85 00:05:13.120 --> 00:05:16.279 off of the artificial intelligence geek out that we did 86 00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:21.800 back in twenty fifteen, whoa ten years ago well, now, 87 00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:24.720 you know, the other thing is to realize, why did 88 00:05:24.759 --> 00:05:27.480 we do that? Geek out? Then, Yeah, that was the 89 00:05:27.639 --> 00:05:32.519 time when Bill Gates and Elon Musk and Stephen Hawking 90 00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:35.759 were all going on about AI emerging and then like, 91 00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:39.079 we have to be careful now. Then the subtext of 92 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:43.079 this is that Google had successfully hired many of the 93 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:47.000 best minds, including guys like Jeff Hinton and so forth, 94 00:05:47.480 --> 00:05:50.759 and they were doing some extraordinary things in a group 95 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:54.199 called Google Brain even then, and so really this was 96 00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:56.439 a push for we've got to get those scientists out 97 00:05:56.519 --> 00:05:59.319 of Google. What you were seeing was the setup that 98 00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:02.240 would become open AI, but we didn't know that at 99 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:05.279 the time. It would emerge another year or two later, 100 00:06:05.720 --> 00:06:08.079 and with all of the problems that that had attacked 101 00:06:08.120 --> 00:06:11.079 and continues to have attached to it. Again, nobody expected 102 00:06:11.480 --> 00:06:12.959 any of the things that have happened here. 103 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:17.639 Well, and Hinton famously started warning the public against general 104 00:06:17.639 --> 00:06:21.160 AI and the things that I'm sure Mark is going 105 00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:22.279 to be talking about too. 106 00:06:22.360 --> 00:06:26.759 But yeah, once his shares in Google were fully vested, right, Yeah, 107 00:06:26.839 --> 00:06:29.199 so you know it should be clear. 108 00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:31.680 Not that you're cynical about that or

anything. 109 00:06:31.639 --> 00:06:36.240 Just watching for people's motivations here. That's right, follow the money. 110 00:06:36.920 --> 00:06:38.480 So there was a lot of comments on that show 111 00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:40.360 because we were pretty far ahead of our time when 112 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:43.079 we were at that particular point. You know, we're reading 113 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:45.199 in a lot of the tea leaves much more science 114 00:06:45.240 --> 00:06:47.920 fiction based, so makes it ten years all the more extraordinary, right, 115 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:51.160 And I grabbed this comment one of literally dozens, and 116 00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:53.560 one of them was Mark Semens comment too. And Mark 117 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:55.959 probably doesn't remember either because he writes lots of comments 118 00:06:55.959 --> 00:06:58.839 on lots of shows. But you referenced a book called 119 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:03.519 blind Site, Sir, which is a very interesting study and consciousness, 120 00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:07.360 because we did go down that path twenty fifteen about 121 00:07:07.800 --> 00:07:11.680 what's consciousness, what is sentiency, and what is intelligence that 122 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:15.639 kind of thing. So Tom Kirkhoff's comment, another past guest 123 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:19.800 of the show, he says, as you mentioned, it depends, 124 00:07:20.040 --> 00:07:22.920 So what is artificial intelligence? People such as Bill Gates 125 00:07:23.240 --> 00:07:25.600 are cautious with AI and tells us we should not 126 00:07:26.199 --> 00:07:28.319 do it, But we have and we entered the era 127 00:07:28.600 --> 00:07:32.000 where AI is in the past, Apple has Siri and 128 00:07:32.040 --> 00:07:35.920 Microsoft has Cortana and as personal assistants who are more 129 00:07:35.959 --> 00:07:37.879 and more integrated in all our toys. So where do 130 00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:39.920 we draw the line. Isn't it cool to think that? 131 00:07:39.959 --> 00:07:44.800 In twenty fifteen we Tartana. Yeah, and when I Robot 132 00:07:44.920 --> 00:07:50.959 came out, and that's the Will Smith version of Isaac 133 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:54.800 Asimov's movie. We saw robots helping us as humans in 134 00:07:54.839 --> 00:07:56.560 our day to day work, which you know, the funny 135 00:07:56.600 --> 00:07:59.439 part is here we are with some interesting software, but 136 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:02.720 still build a robot that humans can be around. Is 137 00:08:02.759 --> 00:08:06.439 that artificial intelligence? Because we can get this today in 138 00:08:06.519 --> 00:08:09.160 some sort I don't think of remote qualifies. We have 139 00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:11.600 robots that are capable of walking like animals. We have 140 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:15.240 sensors such as connect connect I remember connect that can 141 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:20.279 detect walls, open doors, and well, plus we have Cortana 142 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:22.800 and with our knowing our schedule and helping us to 143 00:08:22.839 --> 00:08:25.199 remind stuff and look stuff up the combine this together. 144 00:08:25.240 --> 00:08:28.199 Are we getting close to those robots? Also? Where are 145 00:08:28.279 --> 00:08:31.199 we with laws supporting lists like getting self driving cars 146 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:35.039 and personal assistance and stuff? How will we protect ourselves 147 00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:37.799 from human hackers or AI going wrong? These are all 148 00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:38.600 interesting talking. 149 00:08:38.759 --> 00:08:41.519 Well, you'd be happy to know nothing has happened in 150 00:08:41.639 --> 00:08:45.600 law government to protect us from anything because they don't 151 00:08:45.639 --> 00:08:47.320 even know what the heck is going on. 152 00:08:47.679 --> 00:08:51.320 Well, that's not true. The EU has passed an interesting self. 153 00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:54.360 I was talking about our government, Richard, Well, my government 154 00:08:54.919 --> 00:08:57.399 they have no clue about AI or what to do 155 00:08:57.480 --> 00:09:00.519 about it. So the other civilized civilizations we have a 156 00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:01.360 little bit more to do. 157 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:03.679 It is I mean, we were thinking about these same 158 00:09:03.720 --> 00:09:07.639 problems ten years ago, but with obviously some gaps, right, Like, Yeah, 159 00:09:08.320 --> 00:09:11.840 the voice assistance of ten years ago actually worked better 160 00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:14.039 than they did in just the past couple of years 161 00:09:14.080 --> 00:09:17.080 before the LM showed up, because they never made money. Yeah, 162 00:09:17.279 --> 00:09:19.480 And as they didn't make money, their budgets got squeezed 163 00:09:19.480 --> 00:09:21.840 tighter and tighter, and less compute resources were used on them, 164 00:09:21.879 --> 00:09:26.639 and they degraded. And eventually, just before the LLM breakout, 165 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:30.279 before chatchpt, both Google and Amazon came out said hey, 166 00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:33.279 we're cutting these groups back because they're just not doing 167 00:09:33.279 --> 00:09:36.279 what they were intended doing with attending not being helping people, 168 00:09:36.519 --> 00:09:39.720 but making the company money. And then of course it 169 00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:42.480 did chatchpt lands and the whole thing's up in the 170 00:09:42.559 --> 00:09:46.120 air and they're all scrambling. So Tom, thank you so 171 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:48.159 much for your comment. Great to hear from your friend 172 00:09:48.360 --> 00:09:51.559 nine years ago, and a coffee of music. Cobe is 173 00:09:51.559 --> 00:09:52.559 on its way to you, and if you'd like a 174 00:09:52.600 --> 00:09:54.600 coffee of musicobe, I write a comment on the website 175 00:09:54.600 --> 00:09:56.399 and done at rocks dot com or on the facebooks. 176 00:09:56.399 -->

00:09:58.000 You publish every show there, and if you comment there 177 00:09:58.000 --> 00:09:59.679 and I read in the show, we'll send you copy 178 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:00.960 go by Music. 179 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:03.159 To code by Still Going Strong. Thank you Mark Semen 180 00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:05.879 for that idea that you gave me long those many 181 00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:08.720 years ago. Oh that turned into music to code by 182 00:10:08.840 --> 00:10:10.799 twenty two tracks now and you can get them an 183 00:10:10.840 --> 00:10:16.159 MP three wave or flack of twenty five minute compositions 184 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:18.039 at music too coode by dot net. 185 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:19.759 So that's the end of analysis of music. 186 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:23.480 Yeah pretty much? Wow? Yeah Yeah. And it's designed to 187 00:10:23.559 --> 00:10:27.799 be in that beat per minute range that was cited 188 00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:31.559 in the study with the baroque music the children that 189 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:34.559 were doing math problems when it was six between sixty 190 00:10:34.600 --> 00:10:36.679 five and seventy two piece per minute. I think it is. 191 00:10:37.480 --> 00:10:41.879 And it's neither too distracting nor is it too boring, 192 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:44.679 Like you're not going to lose your mind listening to it. 193 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:47.200 There is some variation in there, but nothing's going to 194 00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:50.360 jump out and scream at you. So it works, and 195 00:10:50.440 --> 00:10:54.600 it works for a ton of happy customers, including me. 196 00:10:56.120 --> 00:11:01.440 All right, well, let's formally introduce Mark Mark Seamen. 197 00:11:01.960 --> 00:11:03.679 Hmmm, we got to do nineteen sixty. 198 00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:06.919 Oh yeah, we do. Why don't I always forget that? Richard? 199 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:07.600 I don't know. 200 00:11:08.120 --> 00:11:09.639 Maybe we should let this go at some point, but 201 00:11:09.639 --> 00:11:10.799 I kind of want to run until we get to 202 00:11:10.799 --> 00:11:12.279 two thousand and two and we have inception. 203 00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:15.799 I do too, Yeah, yeah, yeah. So significant events in 204 00:11:15.879 --> 00:11:21.240 nineteen sixty included the independence of seventeen African nations, the 205 00:11:21.279 --> 00:11:24.360 Greensboro sit ins for civil rights in the US, and 206 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:28.039 the first televised presidential debate between John F. Kennedy and 207 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:29.120 Richard Nixon. 208 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:30.399 MM, which went well. 209 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:34.399 Kennedy was very telegenic, he was you wore a dark suit, 210 00:11:34.519 --> 00:11:37.679 and Richard Nixon blended in with the background. I remember that. 211 00:11:37.559 --> 00:11:39.360 All these things you didn't need to think about until 212 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:40.360 television came along. 213 00:11:40.679

--> 00:11:43.000 It was also marked by the U two incident, where 214 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:46.440 an American spy plane was shot down over Soviet airspace, 215 00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:51.080 escalating Gary Powers old war tensions. 216 00:11:51.639 --> 00:11:54.000 They believe that plane flew too high to be shot down, 217 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:58.000 and they were wrong. So what's on your list, Richard? 218 00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:02.039 The first laser is rendered operational. A guy named Theodore 219 00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:05.240 Maymon where can at a huge research used a synthetic 220 00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:07.840 ruby with flash lamps based on a bunch of science 221 00:12:08.320 --> 00:12:10.279 a group of other smart folks over the past few years. 222 00:12:10.279 --> 00:12:13.799 But he's the guy who actually implemented coherent light. Wow 223 00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:15.639 your DBD, thanks you Wow. 224 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:19.039 And shortly after that, Star Trek came online and something 225 00:12:19.080 --> 00:12:22.200 they're using phasers because they couldn't say lasers. 226 00:12:22.679 --> 00:12:25.679 And the very first weather satellite ever TIROS one, the 227 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:31.200 US satellite TIRO short for Television Infrared Observation satellite, launched 228 00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:34.320 by aor able rocket. It had solar panels on it 229 00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:37.600 in nineteen sixty at solar panels Wow, a wide narrow 230 00:12:37.639 --> 00:12:41.080 angle infrared cameras and it took about twenty three thousand 231 00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:45.080 pictures before an electrical failure after ten weeks knocked it out, 232 00:12:45.559 --> 00:12:48.480 beginning this idea of being able to look at weather 233 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:52.480 at a macroscale from orbit, which is incredibly important. It's 234 00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:54.559 amazing to think that that's only it's only been sixty 235 00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:56.679 years of being able to do that. Yeah, it's still 236 00:12:56.759 --> 00:13:00.360 actually in orbit. There was this electrical failure in the 237 00:13:00.360 --> 00:13:03.080 battery system knocked it out early. Could have lasted longer, 238 00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:05.240 but it was followed up by many more, but that 239 00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:06.360 that began in nineteen sixty. 240 00:13:06.360 --> 00:13:09.200 I shall also mention the pill was ratified in nineteen sixty, 241 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:13.159 so that ushered in a whole era of women's reproductive 242 00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:14.080 rights and all of that. 243 00:13:14.159 --> 00:13:16.039 Next, we're going to talk about the age of Aquarius. 244 00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:19.279 No, no, no, come on, man, come on. 245 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:21.639 All works together. 246 00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:23.200 Where would we be without the pill? 247 00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:23.559 There? 248 00:13:23.559 --> 00:13:26.080 You seriously, I wouldn't have gotten laid in high school. 249 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:28.480 I don't know about you guys. But all right, So 250 00:13:29.200 --> 00:13:33.600 is there any other computer oriented events or computers that 251 00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:37.000 were breakthroughs in nineteen sixty that you can. 252 00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:39.679 No, but nineteen sixty one is a big one. So 253 00:13:40.080 --> 00:13:41.960 hang in there, will all right, we'll talk a lot 254 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:44.320 about the integrated circuit, all right next week. 255 00:13:44.360 --> 00:13:47.159 Did they start with four trend back then? Or is 256 00:13:47.519 --> 00:13:49.879 that that's around that time maybe a little bit earlier? 257 00:13:50.039 --> 00:13:53.519 Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, four trends already around by then. 258 00:13:53.799 --> 00:13:58.039 Oh yeah, okay, you know, not on a you know, 259 00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:02.519 we're talking kind of pre This is before we actually 260 00:14:02.559 --> 00:14:06.279 have digital computers per se. Right, they're largely electrical mechanical 261 00:14:06.600 --> 00:14:10.320 like the the uh. We have transistors, but we haven't 262 00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:12.440 really got an integrated circuit, so the compute power is 263 00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:13.240 not the same at all. 264 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:16.120 All right, So the bio that I'm going to read 265 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:18.600 was not written by me. It was written by Mark himself. 266 00:14:19.080 --> 00:14:23.159 Mark Semen is a bad economist who's found a second 267 00:14:23.200 --> 00:14:27.519 career as a programmer. He has worked as a web 268 00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:30.360 and enterprise developer since the late nineteen nineties, and he 269 00:14:30.440 --> 00:14:34.759 blogs regularly at blog dot plo dot dk. That's p 270 00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:37.759 l o e h did I pronounce that writer? Is 271 00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:40.200 it more like pl that's plur pl That's right. 272 00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:43.200 Okay, you got that the second time around. Yeah, that's 273 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:44.759 pretty good. That's pretty good. 274 00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:47.799 Well, welcome back, and uh, thank you. I just had 275 00:14:47.799 --> 00:14:50.399 to formally introduce you there. That's even though we've been 276 00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:53.200 talking to you for ten fourteen minutes. 277 00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:53.879 Yes we have. 278 00:14:54.120 --> 00:14:56.679 Yeah, all right, So what are your thoughts? Are you 279 00:14:56.759 --> 00:14:57.639 fan of Ezra Klein? 280 00:14:57.720 --> 00:15:02.720 First of all, I've I I usually used used to 281 00:15:02.759 --> 00:15:05.000 listen to a podcast by Sam Harris and these two 282 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:10.559 sort of enemies, if you will, also, so I haven't 283 00:15:10.559 --> 00:15:12.919 really listened to to Ezra Klein. But but on the 284 00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:15.840 other hand, I think it was if Scott Fitzgerial who 285

00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:18.600 said something like and you know, the sign of intelligence 286 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:22.039 is being able to hold two opposing thoughts in your 287 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:24.080 mind at the same time and not go insane. So 288 00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:28.039 maybe I should. I mean, it's it also sounds like 289 00:15:28.120 --> 00:15:30.519 he's been doing he's been on sort of Isra Klein 290 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:33.120 has been on some sort of journey where he's starting 291 00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:35.960 to realize that, you know, some of the problems that 292 00:15:36.039 --> 00:15:39.639 you just talked about here are actually really important. So yeah, 293 00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:41.519 so maybe I should. So I haven't really been a 294 00:15:41.559 --> 00:15:44.720 fan there, but you know, I have no beef with 295 00:15:44.799 --> 00:15:47.759 him personally, so maybe maybe I should give it a listen. 296 00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:50.159 Well, what about the idea of gen Z being sort 297 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:52.759 of caught in this vortex of impossibility? 298 00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:57.240 That that that absolutely rings true. I have two gen 299 00:15:57.320 --> 00:16:01.200 Z kids, and the well, the old one is old 300 00:16:01.279 --> 00:16:03.879 enough so she's almost not a gen Z, so she's 301 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:06.600 she's sort of got you know, through most of this 302 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:10.399 stuff without too many, you know, too much impact that. 303 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:13.440 But the other one, he's eighteen now, and he's really 304 00:16:13.720 --> 00:16:17.440 he's really you know, grabbed by TikTok and phones and 305 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:20.159 so on. So that's yeah, that's that's a bit of 306 00:16:20.200 --> 00:16:20.679 a problem. 307 00:16:20.840 --> 00:16:23.440 Yeah, yeah, I mean my kids are just that bit 308 00:16:23.559 --> 00:16:26.399 much older that maybe they slipped past us to some degree, 309 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:29.639 but the the bait here, and you brought it up 310 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:31.879 right at the top there, Carl, is how much of 311 00:16:31.879 --> 00:16:34.879 this is just the attention economy in general? And how 312 00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:37.480 much of it is the impacts of the pandemic of 313 00:16:37.519 --> 00:16:43.120 that two years of psychosis just this crazy time. 314 00:16:43.279 --> 00:16:47.240 It was really psychosis, absolutely crazy time. 315 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:50.559 I think we were seeing signs of this already before. 316 00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:54.080 I mean, was it the Senta shoop Off who wrote 317 00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:57.320 this book about the attention economy? I think that predates 318 00:16:57.399 --> 00:17:02.000 the the pandemics. I remember, So there were definitely people 319 00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:05.640 talking about this, you know, even in the in the 320 00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:09.640 twenty tens. But that's not really what we're here to 321 00:17:09.640 --> 00:17:10.119 talk about. 322 00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:14.440 No, no, no, is it. We're just getting started here? 323 00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:16.880 Yeah, I know, but but maybe I should start with 324 00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:20.559 an other experience I had with a young person. So 325 00:17:20.599 --> 00:17:25.599 I was following a university course on something computer science 326 00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:29.599 I don't exactly remember. And because I was doing that, 327 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:32.720 they you know, they have us do some group exercises 328 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:34.519 as well. So I was doing a little paper with 329 00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:38.279 some young people and we were having a discussion about 330 00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:41.119 how to interpret a certain algorithm, and you know, whether 331 00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:45.440 we were in one regime or another and we couldn't 332 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:47.559 really agree. And then the other one he was just 333 00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:53.200 writing on on what some DM what's it called? I 334 00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:56.160 can't remember anyway, So we were dming back and forth and 335 00:17:56.519 --> 00:17:58.880 he writes to me, well, but I just asked chat 336 00:17:58.960 --> 00:18:02.359 GBT and it says blah blah blah. So I'm right ah, 337 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:04.920 and I'm sort of like, I don't care. I don't 338 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:07.519 care what Chad GBT says. I wrote back and he 339 00:18:07.640 --> 00:18:09.759 was like, oh my god, you don't care what chat 340 00:18:09.839 --> 00:18:12.799 GGBT says. How can you? I mean, it was that 341 00:18:12.920 --> 00:18:17.759 was very much a generational divide there, and every time 342 00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:20.160 we came back to that, he's sort of like, oh, yeah, Mark, 343 00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:23.759 is this weird person who doesn't believe in everything that 344 00:18:23.839 --> 00:18:25.160 jaduary it. 345 00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:28.319 But you're lude you don't know anything about technology? 346 00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:34.359 Yeah, And I should probably preface I'm going to say 347 00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:36.519 a lot of critical things about AI, but it's not 348 00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:39.279 that I'm a complete lot eyed. I actually do see 349 00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:42.079 that there's some you know, benefits to be gained as well, 350 00:18:42.119 --> 00:18:44.160 but that's not what we here to talk about. So 351 00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:46.519 if the listener gets the impression that I'm just in 352 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:49.839 grumby old man shouting at the cloud. It's not the 353 00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:51.960 entire picture, but let's just pretend. 354 00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:53.519 Well, that's besides the point. 355 00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:55.480 Let's just pretend that that's the case. 356 00:18:55.519 --> 00:19:00.039 Anyway, Yeah, that cloud didn't need shouting. 357 00:19:01.640 -->

00:19:05.559 Indeed, indeed. But I keep running into this thing where 358 00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:08.880 people are backing up their claims by saying, well, I 359 00:19:09.079 --> 00:19:12.119 just asked you know, some chat TBT or some other 360 00:19:12.200 --> 00:19:16.000 EI online EI system, Last Language model, whatever you want 361 00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:18.759 to call it, and then they're using that as their 362 00:19:18.920 --> 00:19:22.960 appeal to authority and saying, well, it's true because it's 363 00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:27.440 it says so, And it's really hard to argue against that, 364 00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:31.240 because if people are actually in that mindset where they 365 00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:34.440 think that's as an authority that they can trusts, it's 366 00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:36.119 hard to get them out of that mindset. 367 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:39.240 But it is actually new. This is not new to LMS, 368 00:19:39.559 --> 00:19:43.200 no chat GBT. People have been saying the computer says 369 00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:46.680 uh huh, yeah, since we put computers in front of people. 370 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:49.319 Right, Well, that's a fair argument, but I think we 371 00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:52.880 are We're we sort of reached a new level there 372 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:55.640 because usually, you know, in the old days, when the 373 00:19:55.640 --> 00:19:59.880 computer said something, it was usually correct under the count 374 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:04.519 take that you know, in which it would say something. 375 00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:07.400 Right, data came out of a database somewhere. 376 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:09.359 Yeah, you would ask it about something in the database, 377 00:20:09.400 --> 00:20:11.720 And of course you can you could have wrong data 378 00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:14.440 inside that database, or you could have a bug in 379 00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:17.240 the program and so on. But in general, if you 380 00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:20.720 understood the context in which the you know, the computer 381 00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:24.079 and the program and the software would actually be giving 382 00:20:24.119 --> 00:20:28.039 you answers, there would be some sort of knowledge to 383 00:20:28.119 --> 00:20:30.640 be gained. And that's not really where we are with 384 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:34.319 those you know, new systems, and that's it's not you know, 385 00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:36.839 one thing is the system itself, but it's how people 386 00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:41.000 are interacting with these sites concerned me a bit. Yeah, yeah. 387 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:43.519 But also the thing is that that they tend to 388 00:20:43.559 --> 00:20:45.559 see them as oracles, is that you can go and 389 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:48.559 ask them about anything and then you a lot of 390 00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:52.200 people seem to just blindly trust them. Which that's that's 391 00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:54.240 really what concerns me here, because. 392 00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:58.880 Yeah, I did an experiment Mark, I asked for a 393 00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:02.960 recommendation of a product on Amazon based on my parameters, 394 00:21:04.039 --> 00:21:07.400 and it recommended something, and then I went it was 395 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:10.400 an electronic piece for electronic Here, I went on Amazon, 396 00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:13.839 I looked at all the reviews and there was very 397 00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:17.319 many one star reviews saying this thing overheats and then 398 00:21:17.559 --> 00:21:22.039 goes to crap, don't buy it. So then I brought 399 00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:24.559 that up to Chatchip. He said, you're right, let me 400 00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:27.960 look for another one. Sound familiar. Let me look for 401 00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:30.160 another one that doesn't overheat. Here's here's the one. 402 00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:30.559 You want. 403 00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:34.240 This is because it's going to satisfy this condition, that condition, 404 00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:37.960 And I said, okay, and you know it's fairly well reviewed. 405 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:41.559 So I bought it and it didn't work. It didn't 406 00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:45.720 do some of the things that I asked for with 407 00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:48.599 chat GPT, and it was vague because when I went 408 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:52.000 back then looked at the description didn't explicitly say this 409 00:21:52.039 --> 00:21:54.440 thing that I needed. I just assumed that it would 410 00:21:54.680 --> 00:21:58.839 do it because most things like this did it. So 411 00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:01.720 I ended up returning it and something else. But it's 412 00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:04.599 conscinary town. So yeah, it's an experiment. I wanted to 413 00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:09.240 see if I could rather than going through the tedious 414 00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:14.440 task of searching on Amazon and then starting by most 415 00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:18.000 favorite reviews and reading them. Rather than doing that, I 416 00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:20.279 just asked chapter GPT to do my bidding. And it 417 00:22:20.319 --> 00:22:20.880 didn't work. 418 00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:24.200 It lies, but indeed, in this in this case, you 419 00:22:24.279 --> 00:22:26.920 were still in a scenario where you were able to 420 00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:30.920 you're still able to verify or in this case, in 421 00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:35.680 this case as actually falsify the claim that was made 422 00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:38.920 by the LMS. So of course, because you were ordering 423 00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:41.640 I assume a physical product, it took some time to 424 00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:44.799 actually get that verification of falsification in place, but you 425 00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:48.759 could still do that, and that's that's not even you know, 426 00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:52.640 I'm not too concerned about people using lms in that 427

00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:54.559 way because I actually use them like that as well. 428 00:22:54.680 --> 00:22:56.359 You know, if I if I have a problem where 429 00:22:56.359 --> 00:22:59.759 I can you know, I know, I don't know exactly 430 00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:01.799 what the answer is going to be, but if I 431 00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:04.720 get the answer, I can do a verification check and 432 00:23:04.759 --> 00:23:07.279 then I can see if that solves my problem or not. 433 00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:11.440 I had I've had very nice, you know, experiences with 434 00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:13.960 the limbs that do that for me and save me 435 00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:16.599 a ton of time. So I don't really have a 436 00:23:16.599 --> 00:23:19.279 problem with that because you know, if you can get 437 00:23:19.319 --> 00:23:21.200 an answer and then you can verify whether or not 438 00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:25.880 it works, you're still on solid ground in terms of epistemology. 439 00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:28.319 So okay, so now we said the big word here, 440 00:23:28.359 --> 00:23:31.279 but it basically means the theory of knowledge. So how 441 00:23:31.319 --> 00:23:33.559 do we know that we know things, why do we 442 00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:35.359 think that we know some things? 443 00:23:35.680 --> 00:23:40.519 I know that in the term of epistemological studies that 444 00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:45.480 are basically just tabulating answers from people, but you don't 445 00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:51.160 know whether or not they lied, right, the entomologic entomological studies, 446 00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:54.799 there's another All right, I'm mixing up my words. 447 00:23:54.839 --> 00:23:57.519 Here, go ahead, Yeah, so where we so? Yeah? 448 00:23:57.559 --> 00:23:57.599 So? 449 00:23:57.640 --> 00:23:59.119 But that's the on thing. So if you can ask 450 00:23:59.240 --> 00:24:01.039 you know, a system and then get get it to 451 00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:03.400 give you an answer that you can then later verify, 452 00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:05.880 I think that's that sound. I don't really have a 453 00:24:05.880 --> 00:24:08.519 problem with that. My problem is really with you are 454 00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:11.799 asking a system to do something and you have no 455 00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:14.880 way of verifying whether or not it actually, you know, 456 00:24:15.079 --> 00:24:17.079 is what it is that you wanted to do. Then 457 00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:21.240 I think now I'm getting concerned. And since we are 458 00:24:21.519 --> 00:24:24.240 on a podcast where we usually talk about software development, 459 00:24:24.279 --> 00:24:25.920 you know, one of the things that really concerned me 460 00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:28.279 is when people ask you know, these systems to write 461 00:24:28.279 --> 00:24:32.200 code for them, because but then again, you know, if 462 00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:35.400 you if you do that, well, if you can actually 463 00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:37.960

read through on the code and then you have an 464 00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:41.000 idea at what you're looking at, well that might actually work, 465 00:24:41.079 --> 00:24:43.440 but often you hear people so yeah, I know you 466 00:24:43.519 --> 00:24:47.079 talked about vibe coding already, and and for me it 467 00:24:47.160 --> 00:24:49.920 is a pejorative. I think it's it sounds like a 468 00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:53.039 really really bad idea because if you don't know, if 469 00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:54.960 you if you don't know how to code, or if 470 00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:57.880 you ask this system to write code in a language 471 00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:01.559 that you don't really understand, then how you know it works? Right? 472 00:25:02.200 --> 00:25:05.799 Well, the compiler has to say if you are writing 473 00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:08.759 in a language that actually does compile, and people are 474 00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:11.519 using a lot of often they get it to write 475 00:25:11.640 --> 00:25:14.359 JavaScript or Python or something like that for them, and 476 00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:16.640 they those languages don't even compile. 477 00:25:16.920 --> 00:25:19.559 The point is something that they don't know. Yeah, right, 478 00:25:19.960 --> 00:25:23.880 Why would Why would I ask an l M or whatever, 479 00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:27.319 an agent to write me an assembly program because I 480 00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:29.720 think it's going to be faster When I don't read 481 00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:32.039 assembly and I can't verify it, and I can't step 482 00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:33.440 through the code, and I don't know what the heck 483 00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:36.400 that thing does. It might look like it works, but 484 00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:39.599 I ain't going to run that thing, right, I'm gonna 485 00:25:39.799 --> 00:25:43.720 If you ask an agent to write code in a 486 00:25:43.799 --> 00:25:47.680 language that you don't know how to verify, you get 487 00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:50.599 you know, you get what you get, right, you get 488 00:25:50.599 --> 00:25:54.400 what you pay for basically deserve it. 489 00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:59.480 That being said, I'm now having experiences with very experienced 490 00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:03.759 software helpers where we spend an entire day working through 491 00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:07.599 a sprint of code that we estimated it would have 492 00:26:07.640 --> 00:26:10.279 been six weeks worth of work, and then knocked it 493 00:26:10.279 --> 00:26:13.240 out in a weekend using these tools. Yep, yeah, right, 494 00:26:13.359 --> 00:26:16.799 Like but in the hands of skilled people who understand 495 00:26:16.839 --> 00:26:20.240 what they're doing and are working hard with these tools, 496 00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:25.160 you can get extraordinary results. Not you cancre mental results, 497 00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:27.759 but literally weeks of working days. 498 00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:31.039 We just heard and I don't remember if this was 499 00:26:31.079 --> 00:26:32.880 talking to you, Richard or somebody else, might have been 500 00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:36.400 Brian McKay that he had a guy that was in 501 00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:41.480 a meeting, a two hour meeting about a spec and 502 00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:43.559 about building a prototype, and by the end of the 503 00:26:43.599 --> 00:26:44.480 meeting he had it done. 504 00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:49.319 Right. That seems to becoming more common again known problem space. 505 00:26:49.640 --> 00:26:52.799 You know, these these were forms over data problems, so 506 00:26:52.839 --> 00:26:56.960 they were pretty automatical anyway, and with someone who knew 507 00:26:57.119 --> 00:26:59.839 the tools and the language well, and they have a 508 00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:03.200 put together assembly and their productivity is astonishing. 509 00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:06.799 Yeah, but again, how do you measure productivity? In software development, 510 00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:10.880 because it seems to me that we are forgetting that 511 00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:14.920 lines of code is not a measurement of productivity, you. 512 00:27:14.920 --> 00:27:17.279 Know, Yeah, this is delivering features to customers. 513 00:27:17.400 --> 00:27:20.240 Yeah, and that makes a lot of sense, of course, 514 00:27:20.359 --> 00:27:24.200 if you can measure that. But that's a whole different discussion. 515 00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:27.720 Whether that's because one feature is not necessarily equivalent to 516 00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:30.400 another feature. You know, some features are big and someone small. 517 00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:32.680 But that's probably a different discussion. 518 00:27:33.079 --> 00:27:34.960 No, but I think it's a really valid one that 519 00:27:35.160 --> 00:27:37.640 there's a bar here that these tools seem to be 520 00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:40.440 able to handle at a bar, and above that bar 521 00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:41.200 they cannot. 522 00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:43.920 Yeah, above that bar. You have to sort of break 523 00:27:43.960 --> 00:27:47.079 it down into you know, bite sized pieces for them. So, 524 00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:51.279 but that's how I like to work anyway, you know, Yeah, yeah, yeah. 525 00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:54.160 Of course. But I'm still I'm still wondering whether we 526 00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:57.240 can trust these things even if we look at them. 527 00:27:57.279 --> 00:28:00.160 Because so we reached the story that you told, I 528 00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:02.119 don't know exactly the details of it and so on. 529 00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:04.480 But but one of the questions I would like to 530 00:28:04.519 --> 00:28:06.680 ask when when people do something like that, is to 531 00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:10.079 how do you actually know that the software works? How? 532 00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:13.480 How did you how did you decide that that software 533 00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:18.799 worked in

that particular case. What was the decision criteria there? 534 00:28:18.920 --> 00:28:21.079 Oh? I mean again, they'd also built a set of 535 00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:24.920 test suites. Yeah, you know, I saw that these features 536 00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:26.720 need to be tested this way and measure you know, 537 00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:30.680 he did the complete coding solution, including the security evaluation, 538 00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:32.960 like all of the different pieces. Like, you didn't just 539 00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:35.720 spat it. This was not vibe coding. No, this was 540 00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:38.279 a thoroughly thought out architectural solution. 541 00:28:38.599 --> 00:28:40.000 But who wrote who wrote the tests? 542 00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:41.240 Though? With the tools? 543 00:28:41.640 --> 00:28:43.839 How do you why do you trust those? Then? 544 00:28:44.119 --> 00:28:47.440 Well, because you could see the code, right, there's no 545 00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:49.960 secrets here. Tests are pretty straightforward to understand. 546 00:28:50.119 --> 00:28:52.200 Yeah, I guess the thing that we can agree on 547 00:28:52.359 --> 00:28:54.680 is if you let it get away from you, right, 548 00:28:54.759 --> 00:28:57.440 and you don't follow up on every change your AI 549 00:28:57.559 --> 00:29:00.319 is making for you and test it and on it 550 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:04.799 and you know, observe it, and you just let it 551 00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:07.720 go wild, you're you're going to lose control. And so 552 00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:10.039 staying in control, I think this is the key. 553 00:29:10.200 --> 00:29:12.359 The question you keep asking is why do you trust it? 554 00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:16.319 It's like, don't don't trust it? Yeah, don't know exactly. Yeah, Look, 555 00:29:16.359 --> 00:29:19.279 I already do distributed development. I have people contributing to 556 00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:22.559 my projects that I never meet, that I only interact with, 557 00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:26.440 you know, through issues on GitHub. You don't trust them either, No, 558 00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:28.319 but you evaluate the code. 559 00:29:28.519 --> 00:29:29.519 You review the code. 560 00:29:29.640 --> 00:29:33.000 Yeah, yeah, that's the job. But the reality is it's 561 00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:36.599 still a force multiplier to have multiple people contributing to 562 00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:38.720 a project. It takes less time to review code than 563 00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:39.480 it takes to write it. 564 00:29:39.799 --> 00:29:43.400 And I do not disagree with that. That's reasonable enough, 565 00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:47.559 but it's still my concern is still that we you know, 566 00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:51.480 if we have an output of code that is multiplied, 567 00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:56.680 you know, tenfold, one hundredfold in comparison to what we 568 00:29:56.720 --> 00:30:00.279 had a couple of years ago, then we should also 569 00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:04.039 to have that that we should also spend that much 570 00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:07.599 more energy on actually reviewing the things that are being produced. 571 00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:10.799 And I'm not really getting the impression that that's the case. 572 00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:15.759 So it's the case at my house, I can tell 573 00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:15.960 you that. 574 00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:16.680 Yeah. 575 00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:20.599 Well, but again, you know, well, and this will be 576 00:30:20.720 --> 00:30:23.599 this is also some with self fulfilling. Those who trust 577 00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:26.279 these tools, right, will get burned. Absolutely. 578 00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:29.359 Yeah, that's that's also what I'm what I'm concerned about. 579 00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:31.720 And we can just hope that it's just some simple 580 00:30:31.759 --> 00:30:35.480 forms over the data and and they're they're probably only 581 00:30:35.559 --> 00:30:39.279 hurting the company that actually owns that software. But what if, 582 00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:42.920 what if the actually we're beginning to see people, you know, 583 00:30:43.079 --> 00:30:48.880 writing fly you know, h operating systems or systems for 584 00:30:49.319 --> 00:30:53.119 controlling hardware or elevators and medical systems and so on. 585 00:30:53.240 --> 00:30:55.960 And then I'm getting a little bit concerned here that's 586 00:30:55.960 --> 00:30:59.480 probably not going to happen this year. But well, in 587 00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:02.359 a couple of is we'll see, we'll see those people 588 00:31:02.359 --> 00:31:05.839 who do use those systems at the moment, they some 589 00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:08.759 of them will graduate to writing those kinds of systems, 590 00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:11.319 and I'm just concerned that they're probably going to take 591 00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:12.640 some of their bad habits with them. 592 00:31:12.880 --> 00:31:16.480 Without a doubt, I think, yeah, let's do the break 593 00:31:16.519 --> 00:31:18.680 and then I want to dig into the next tier 594 00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:20.920 of this problem, which I think is the junior developer. 595 00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:23.759 Yeah, okay, and we'll be right back after these very 596 00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:28.000 important messages. Did you know that you can work with 597 00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:34.000 AWS directly from your ide AWS provides toolkits for visual studio, 598 00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:38.319 visual studio code, and jet brains rider Learn more at 599 00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:47.200 AWS dot Amazon dot com, slash net, slash tools. And 600 00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:49.680 we're back. It's dot at Rox. I'm Carl Franklin and 601 00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:52.519 I'm Richard Campbell and that is Mark Seaman, and we're 602 00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:56.160 talking about AI concerns. And just as a reminder, if 603 00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:57.759 you don't want to hear these ads, you can pay

604 00:31:57.799 --> 00:32:01.359 five bucks a month become a patron Patreon dot nerocks 605 00:32:01.400 --> 00:32:04.440 dot com. You'll get a free an ad, free feed. 606 00:32:04.599 --> 00:32:05.440 Take it away, Richard. 607 00:32:05.799 --> 00:32:07.839 The folks that I'm seeing that will be successful these 608 00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:11.240 tools are very experienced developers. Yeah, you know, really they've 609 00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:13.319 spent most these days. They don't even write a lot 610 00:32:13.359 --> 00:32:15.480 of code, and maybe they do some spikes and things, 611 00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:18.960 but they're mostly supervising a group of developers. They are 612 00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:21.359 the architects, you know, they run at a high level 613 00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:25.279 of responsibility, and they're starting to see these tools act 614 00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:31.400 as inexperienced developers under fairly strict guidance with constant code reviews, 615 00:32:31.400 --> 00:32:35.960 but ultimately productive. And it begs a question like where 616 00:32:35.960 --> 00:32:37.680 does the junior developer go now? 617 00:32:38.119 --> 00:32:42.079 Right? Are we the last generation of people who came 618 00:32:42.200 --> 00:32:43.519 up as junior developers? 619 00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:44.319 Yeah? 620 00:32:44.599 --> 00:32:48.079 Yeah, that's my concern too, because well, I think you 621 00:32:48.119 --> 00:32:51.519 said it pretty well, Richard. I'm not sure that I 622 00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:53.480 have a lot of stuff to add to that. 623 00:32:53.559 --> 00:32:58.039 Actually, I mean, I am meeting young developers right now 624 00:32:58.079 --> 00:33:00.799 that are pretty freaked out, and I wonder if it's 625 00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:03.279 because we trained them poorly at this point, Like here 626 00:33:03.279 --> 00:33:05.079 we are, this inflection point where things are changing. And 627 00:33:05.079 --> 00:33:07.160 the funny part is when I have a conversation with 628 00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:10.039 them about solutions, and I'm thinking back to the show 629 00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:13.319 that we did together Carl with the Imagining Cup folks. 630 00:33:13.599 --> 00:33:15.359 Wow, what an inspirational group. 631 00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:19.279 Phenomenal, But you know what, they didn't care about tool stacks? Yeah, 632 00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:21.519 do you remember there were one of the ladies asked us, 633 00:33:21.559 --> 00:33:24.319 like you make a podcast about dot net? Like why 634 00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:25.400 why would you do that? 635 00:33:25.960 --> 00:33:26.319 Right? 636 00:33:27.200 --> 00:33:31.079 Right? And I realized, like we've got old thinking. You know, 637 00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:33.559 when it was a nine to twelve month commit to 638 00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:36.240 get to an MVP of a piece of software, you 639 00:33:36.279 --> 00:33:38.400 could spend a couple of weeks arguing over what stack 640 00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:40.960 to use. Right, but with the productivity level that we're 641 00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:44.279 talking about right now, who cares? Just take the tool 642 00:33:44.319 --> 00:33:46.640 out for a spin. You know, there's so many different 643 00:33:47.079 --> 00:33:50.680 there's Even before the LM showed up, it was so 644 00:33:50.799 --> 00:33:53.160 much easier to learn a new programming environment. It was 645 00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:58.599 so much easier to experiment that those times are getting 646 00:33:58.599 --> 00:34:00.200 shorter and shorter, and the stacks are just not that 647 00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:03.519 different from each other. You know, fundamentally, they still draw 648 00:34:03.559 --> 00:34:05.839 on screens and they still communicate over the Internet. Like 649 00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:08.159 a lot of this stuff is the same, and if 650 00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:09.679 you focus on the solution, you're fine. 651 00:34:09.719 --> 00:34:10.280 Like I don't. 652 00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:14.639 I wonder if we're not actually growing the right generation, 653 00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:19.199 next generation of software developers, because they are not hung 654 00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:21.440 up on the stuff that we're hung up on. Well, 655 00:34:21.480 --> 00:34:24.000 at the same time, maybe they should be. I mean, 656 00:34:24.199 --> 00:34:26.800 so here's here's a scenario, and this came from a 657 00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:31.519 real story that I heard from somebody. Somebody is a 658 00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:34.159 back end dot net developer, and a full stack dot 659 00:34:34.199 --> 00:34:36.480 net developer does the front end, does Blazer and all 660 00:34:36.519 --> 00:34:40.320 that stuff. Somebody comes to them and says, hey, we 661 00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:43.119 want to use React for the front end, but still 662 00:34:43.159 --> 00:34:45.320 keep the as peanut core back end. 663 00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:48.679 Can you do that? And they think, hey, I've got 664 00:34:48.760 --> 00:34:52.440 chat GPT or I've got the agent and they say, yes, 665 00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:57.400 yes I can. They know nothing about React, right, but 666 00:34:57.800 --> 00:35:02.000 they generate all this code and it work. Would you 667 00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:05.960 say yes? Would you say yes, I can do that, 668 00:35:06.199 --> 00:35:08.199 or would I say no? I think you better get 669 00:35:08.199 --> 00:35:10.840 a React programmer to run the tool. 670 00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:11.960 Yeah, I wouldn't. 671 00:35:11.960 --> 00:35:13.559 What would you do it? Yeah? Yeah? 672 00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:16.559 And if I did it that way, would you accept 673 00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:19.679 the code if I didn't know anything about React? 674 00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:22.599 Yeah? That's that's the other problem. So this reminds me 675 00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:24.960 of of an experience I had many years ago. So 676 00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:28.800 obviously

it is because long before the ill a limbs. 677 00:35:29.079 --> 00:35:31.559 But I was working with a with a customer of mine, 678 00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:34.280 trying to teach them to move in small increments and 679 00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:36.400 do test driven development and all these things that I 680 00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:41.079 usually do, and it's actually working pretty well, you know, 681 00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:43.440 trying to also give them an idea about how to 682 00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:45.800 do pull requests and work in this sort of like 683 00:35:46.519 --> 00:35:50.800 quasi open source way of working with the small, small 684 00:35:50.840 --> 00:35:54.440 itserations and all of that. And they hadn't told me 685 00:35:54.519 --> 00:35:58.880 that they actually had an offside group sitting in another country. 686 00:35:59.239 --> 00:36:02.880 And you know, three weeks into my engagement with this customer, 687 00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:06.840 I get this pull request from hell from this you know, 688 00:36:07.079 --> 00:36:09.599 team sitting in another country because no one had told 689 00:36:09.639 --> 00:36:12.159 them that I was actually now trying to you know, 690 00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:15.639 change the things around, and they hadn't told me about 691 00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:18.159 that system as well. So I get this pull request 692 00:36:18.199 --> 00:36:20.480 and it's just like a you know, fifty thousand lines 693 00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:23.400 of code or something like that, and I'm trying to 694 00:36:23.480 --> 00:36:26.400 get the people that I was working with, you know, 695 00:36:26.480 --> 00:36:29.360 going through and saying well, okay, if you write the code, 696 00:36:29.559 --> 00:36:32.559 we need someone else to review it, and well you 697 00:36:32.559 --> 00:36:34.199 can do it with path programming, or we can do 698 00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:35.039 it with pull requests. 699 00:36:35.079 --> 00:36:35.719 I don't really care. 700 00:36:35.719 --> 00:36:38.480 I just want to have more than one person actually 701 00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:40.480 looking at this code. And then I get this thing 702 00:36:40.519 --> 00:36:43.280 in from the from the outside, and I'm sort of like, okay, 703 00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:45.360 what do I do with this now, because you know, 704 00:36:45.400 --> 00:36:49.639 the usual reaction to something like that is to say, well, 705 00:36:50.320 --> 00:36:52.760 looks good to me, because that's what you already always 706 00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:55.480 do with those big, big requests. 707 00:36:55.079 --> 00:36:57.400 The classic sign of I have not read. 708 00:36:57.159 --> 00:37:01.559 This exactly exactly. And now, fortunately I was actually, you know, 709 00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:04.159 engaged by the CEO of the company, so I know 710 00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:08.760 that I had I had pretty free, you know, range 711 00:37:08.800 --> 00:37:11.880 of deciding what to do. So I wrote back and say, well, okay, 712 00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:14.199 so I'm really sorry that you weren't in on what 713 00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:15.920 is what it is that we're doing at the moment, 714 00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:19.119 but I'm actually going to politely decline this pull request 715 00:37:19.119 --> 00:37:21.360 because it's just too much. And I don't know whether 716 00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:23.519 it works. And it's not that I don't trust you 717 00:37:23.559 --> 00:37:25.480 in the sense that I think you have you know, 718 00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:29.079 ill intent, but I don't even trust myself to write 719 00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:33.039 you know, flawless code. So that's why we need someone 720 00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:35.400 else to actually review with it, because it's part of 721 00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:39.519 this whole you know, process of figuring out does the code, 722 00:37:39.559 --> 00:37:42.039 does the software actually work as intended? Does the code 723 00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:43.960 do what it is that we wanted to do, And 724 00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:46.079 we can't do that if you just give me, you know, 725 00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:49.119 all of that in one go. So I said, well, 726 00:37:49.159 --> 00:37:50.639 I'm not going to take this one. But on the 727 00:37:50.639 --> 00:37:52.719 other hand, you still have all the codes, so I'll 728 00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:54.519 work with you and try to break it down into 729 00:37:54.519 --> 00:37:55.960 smaller pieces and we can get. 730 00:37:55.800 --> 00:37:56.400 It in that way. 731 00:37:56.440 --> 00:38:00.199 So we sort of made that work. But my mind 732 00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:02.760 here is that we're sort of in that situation now 733 00:38:02.840 --> 00:38:07.440 where we do get you know, something that reminds us 734 00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:09.559 of you know, the pull request from Hell. But it's 735 00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:12.320 just like it's not written by a person anymore. It's 736 00:38:12.360 --> 00:38:17.159 just now it's written by some statistical system. And and 737 00:38:17.199 --> 00:38:19.519 then if you just get all of that code in 738 00:38:19.559 --> 00:38:22.480 one big, you know chunk, you don't really you can't 739 00:38:22.519 --> 00:38:26.480 really fit it in your head, and then you. 740 00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:31.079 Just supplies submit a series of smaller requests exactly. 741 00:38:31.559 --> 00:38:33.519 And if you can get these systems to do to 742 00:38:33.599 --> 00:38:37.119 work in that way, which I suppose you could, then yeah, 743 00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:40.880 that would that would probably help. So it's not that 744 00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:44.639 I so that's that's actually a pretty that's actually that 745 00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:48.920 maybe showing us a way out and trying to work 746 00:38:48.960 --> 00:38:52.719 with LMS as though they were you know, contributors on 747 00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:55.159 an open source project and then try to tease them 748

00:38:55.159 --> 00:38:57.159 to do small increments that you can review. 749 00:38:57.280 --> 00:38:59.159 Well, that's certainly the way I look at it, because 750 00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:01.400 it's yeah, you know, more and more we're in a 751 00:39:01.400 --> 00:39:03.400 situation where all you can do is see the code. 752 00:39:03.480 --> 00:39:06.039 You don't really see the person, and you certainly have 753 00:39:06.079 --> 00:39:08.559 no way to measure the qualifications. Let's face it, we've 754 00:39:08.679 --> 00:39:11.440 almost never had a way to measure qualifications in software 755 00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:14.079 that was meaningful in any way. In the end, the 756 00:39:14.119 --> 00:39:17.079 code had to speak, and so if they could, you 757 00:39:17.159 --> 00:39:21.760 have to engage with the person. Yeah, you know, there's 758 00:39:21.800 --> 00:39:23.920 an argument here that looks just like, oh, you don't 759 00:39:23.960 --> 00:39:26.840 have a PhD in COMMSI you can't contribute to our. 760 00:39:26.760 --> 00:39:28.199 Project, right, which is silly. 761 00:39:28.719 --> 00:39:31.440 In the end, let the code speak, and if you 762 00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:34.000 can insist that the tool delivers the code in a 763 00:39:34.039 --> 00:39:37.119 form that is viable for you to validate, because in 764 00:39:37.159 --> 00:39:40.480 the end, it's your butt on the line, right, you 765 00:39:40.519 --> 00:39:43.039 are the professional engineer. You're going to sign off on this, 766 00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:45.599 then you have a chance of being able to use 767 00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:49.360 these tools. And I you know, this seems like the 768 00:39:49.400 --> 00:39:52.639 most solvable problem in the LLM space compared to what 769 00:39:52.679 --> 00:39:55.599 people are talking about are playing with doing it outside 770 00:39:55.599 --> 00:39:59.239 of software, Like, at least software has pretty good tools 771 00:39:59.239 --> 00:40:04.000 and governments. We already have a method doing distributed programming. 772 00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:06.559 Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, name other industries that 773 00:40:06.599 --> 00:40:07.920 are even close to this ability. 774 00:40:08.039 --> 00:40:11.800 Yeah, before we leave software, just there's another gotcha for 775 00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:15.719 junior programmers that more experienced programmers won't necessarily have. And 776 00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:18.559 I've talked about this on dot Ner Rocks before, which 777 00:40:18.639 --> 00:40:22.960 is a junior developer will ask a question that they 778 00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:24.920 think is the right question to ask when it might 779 00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:27.679 not be. So they'll ask a question, you know, they'll well, 780 00:40:27.719 --> 00:40:31.840 they'll say something like, please make me a you know, 781 00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:37.360 a thread safe list component or list control. Let a 782 00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:40.519 thread safe list class, right that I can use that 783 00:40:40.519 --> 00:40:43.199 that's completely thread safe and locking and all that stuff. 784 00:40:44.199 --> 00:40:47.039 And that's the wrong question asked, because in dot net anyway, 785 00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:50.679 there is one in the framework. So the first question 786 00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:53.599 that should be asked is, hey, is there a way 787 00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:56.119 that I can use a list in a thread safe manner? 788 00:40:56.559 --> 00:40:58.920 And then you know, if the thing is worth anything, 789 00:40:58.960 --> 00:41:01.480 it will say yeah, well there's the spread safe collection, right, 790 00:41:02.800 --> 00:41:07.119 But instead a junior programmer might go down the very 791 00:41:07.159 --> 00:41:11.320 difficult path of doing one themselves because they don't know 792 00:41:11.400 --> 00:41:15.679 what else is available. So whereas an experienced developer would 793 00:41:15.880 --> 00:41:19.519 would know and not ask that question, and a junior 794 00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:22.639 developer would not. Most likely this question is isn't this 795 00:41:22.760 --> 00:41:23.480 very teachable? 796 00:41:23.639 --> 00:41:23.840 Yeah? 797 00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:26.320 Sure it is, but but how many hours is the 798 00:41:26.360 --> 00:41:28.960 junior developer going to waste working on something that when 799 00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:30.840 they you know, check it in you say, hey, you 800 00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:32.280 know that there is something like this? 801 00:41:32.599 --> 00:41:35.719 Yeah, again, there's a teachable moment around. Make sure you 802 00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:39.159 ask the question what already exists and you know, yeah, we. 803 00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:42.679 Still imagine a future version of large language models will 804 00:41:42.719 --> 00:41:45.840 probably be able to you know, loop in that kind 805 00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:50.199 of questioning saying, oh you're asking about this, have you 806 00:41:50.679 --> 00:41:54.360 do you really want? You know, a ground of implementation 807 00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:56.599 here or can you use the one that already exists? 808 00:41:56.599 --> 00:41:59.920 Have you looked into the framework and see whether they 809 00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:03.039 as a reusable component. I mean, I could probably imagine 810 00:42:03.079 --> 00:42:05.119 that even if they don't do that right now, they 811 00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:08.840 could they actually do probably be yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 812 00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:12.000 because it's it's a fairly common question to ask ask 813 00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:15.360 if you're a senior developer anyway, so anybody, Yeah. 814 00:42:15.079 --> 00:42:18.480 You may need your own implementation because it may need 815 00:42:18.519 --> 00:42:21.800 features that the base class doesn't have or isn't extendable to. 816 00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:23.639 So but usually not. 817 00:42:23.880 --> 00:42:27.639 But

maybe maybe now you're starting, you're already seeing in 818 00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:31.440 these tools that you can put in and pre prompts 819 00:42:31.480 --> 00:42:34.679 like this should be included with every prompt, right so 820 00:42:34.679 --> 00:42:37.960 that you could see the idea of an enterprise group 821 00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:41.840 setting a set of rules that any prompt code generation 822 00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:44.519 has to follow these rules. But they don't always follow 823 00:42:44.519 --> 00:42:45.599 the rules. That's the problem. 824 00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:48.480 I don't know if you've noticed this, but in my 825 00:42:48.559 --> 00:42:51.079 system prompts and in my user prompt if I say 826 00:42:51.159 --> 00:42:55.079 don't do this, sometimes it will anyway. And that's just 827 00:42:55.320 --> 00:42:56.840 that's just the way it goes. 828 00:42:57.119 --> 00:42:59.719 Yeah, and again I'll often skip things as well if 829 00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:03.400 the gets too complex, so you still see some development 830 00:43:03.440 --> 00:43:06.440 need to be done to do more work on validating 831 00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:07.559 the outBut. 832 00:43:07.719 --> 00:43:11.519 Right, yeah, all right, well I'm ready for Harry carry 833 00:43:11.559 --> 00:43:12.119 are you guys? 834 00:43:13.559 --> 00:43:16.960 I'm actually really excited about all this because it does 835 00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:21.280 seem to empower more people to build software. As these 836 00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:27.039 tools mature and they get more reliable. They said they're 837 00:43:27.079 --> 00:43:28.960 as bad as they're going to be right now. I 838 00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:32.559 don't see an exponential growth here. You know, we've basically 839 00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:34.840 indexed all the Internet into these models. As it is, 840 00:43:34.920 --> 00:43:38.320 there is no more data to consume, and so far, 841 00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:42.920 training against stuff generated by these tools is degenerative. It 842 00:43:43.000 --> 00:43:44.320 makes it worse, not better. 843 00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:46.639 Yeah, and most of the time that's not going to happen. 844 00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:49.599 Like I've got confirmation that if I have a private 845 00:43:49.639 --> 00:43:54.840 repo and I use the GitHub Copilot agent to generate code, 846 00:43:55.320 --> 00:43:58.360 it's not going to train their models. They're not going 847 00:43:58.400 --> 00:44:00.400 to train their models on the code that it generates. 848 00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:03.400 In other words, my code isn't going to leak out 849 00:44:03.480 --> 00:44:08.639 into the ether and you know somebody else is using it. 850 00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:12.559 That's just a promise by gethub. I don't know it's true, 851 00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:13.679 but that's a promise. 852 00:44:13.760 --> 00:44:16.239 But even if it's true. Now you know what's going 853 00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:17.159 to happen in the future. 854 00:44:17.800 --> 00:44:18.760 Yeah, well but. 855 00:44:19.079 --> 00:44:24.679 You mean when Oracle buys get ub uh huh. 856 00:44:23.519 --> 00:44:26.320 Pretty sure it's not for sale, you know, a completely 857 00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:28.599 unrelated you know. Note, you know, there were people who 858 00:44:28.639 --> 00:44:31.320 were submitting that DNA sample suport to form you know, 859 00:44:31.400 --> 00:44:34.039 tes be and me, And I'm so happy I never 860 00:44:34.079 --> 00:44:36.320 did that because even back, you know, ten years ago, 861 00:44:36.360 --> 00:44:40.039 I thought, that's not data that I want, you know, 862 00:44:40.400 --> 00:44:44.760 sitting in someone else, you know, repository that I can't control. 863 00:44:44.800 --> 00:44:47.239 And yeah, too late, I've already cloned you. 864 00:44:48.760 --> 00:44:49.119 Indeed. 865 00:44:49.719 --> 00:44:52.199 Yeah, so I think we should be, you know, a 866 00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:56.079 little bit careful with trusting these things, you know, because 867 00:44:56.079 --> 00:44:58.280 things change, you know, so even if you try to 868 00:44:58.280 --> 00:45:01.719 trust an entity like Microsoft, get up and you might 869 00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:03.480 not want to trust it forever. 870 00:45:03.679 --> 00:45:05.719 But then again, Mark, you know, how long will it 871 00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:08.719 be before your iPhone twenty four will be able to 872 00:45:08.760 --> 00:45:12.559 sequence your genome just by taking a picture of a 873 00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:15.280 hair follicle? Yeah? 874 00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:18.400 Yeah, maybe you should go back to probably have a 875 00:45:18.480 --> 00:45:21.519 knock here somewhere lying around that still works. You should 876 00:45:21.519 --> 00:45:24.440 go back to those. That's why we all kind of end. 877 00:45:25.840 --> 00:45:27.840 Yeah, I saw a modern flip phone the other day. 878 00:45:27.880 --> 00:45:30.440 That wasn't like it was still an LCD, right, Like, 879 00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:32.599 it wasn't the I was very tempted. 880 00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:37.360 Yeah, Samsung flip z Well that there's an Android phone 881 00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:39.079 that flips up and down and I have one of those. 882 00:45:39.159 --> 00:45:41.360 Yeah yeah, but those are all those are smartphones. I'm 883 00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:45.239 talking about a full retro flip phone. Oh wow, yeah, wow, 884 00:45:45.880 --> 00:45:48.880 it was exciting. You do have those retro urges without 885 00:45:48.880 --> 00:45:52.119 a doubt. Sure, there isn't the Again, I feel like 886 00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:54.440 the programming situation is the best case scenario. I think 887 00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:58.119 we're more cautious or more familiar with these models of 888 00:45:58.360 --> 00:46:01.280 needing to valid and so forth. The concern space is 889 00:46:01.320 --> 00:46:04.119 pretty much everything else happening in LLMS. Yeah, like you 890 00:46:04.159 -->

00:46:09.679 get back to the computer says stuff. Yeah yeah, But 891 00:46:09.719 --> 00:46:12.960 I also think we've gone through that. We used to 892 00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:16.519 believe everything Google said too, Like this is just yet 893 00:46:16.559 --> 00:46:21.039 another learning pattern that you have to go through the 894 00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:24.840 experience of realizing these tools are based on knowledge we 895 00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:27.920 have and a lot of that knowledge is inaccurate and 896 00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:31.199 so when you you know, quote it verbatim, you are 897 00:46:31.239 --> 00:46:31.880 often wrong. 898 00:46:32.039 --> 00:46:37.440 So maybe Mark your critique is more of the population 899 00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:39.559 than of the AI tools. 900 00:46:39.639 --> 00:46:41.320 Right, Oh, absolutely, you know. 901 00:46:41.360 --> 00:46:43.960 Can we trust people to do the right thing with these? 902 00:46:44.119 --> 00:46:48.880 And yeah, my answer is people are driven by incentives, 903 00:46:49.039 --> 00:46:53.880 and if the economic incentives outweigh the moral incentives or 904 00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:57.880 the ethical incentives, guess which one wins. It's just that simple. 905 00:46:58.119 --> 00:47:02.119 Yeah, yeah, that's that's a bleak. But I'm I think 906 00:47:02.159 --> 00:47:04.719 I'm probably agreeing with you there. 907 00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:08.159 Unfortunately, Well, it comes down to the developer who says 908 00:47:08.239 --> 00:47:12.079 yes to developing something with an AI in a language 909 00:47:12.119 --> 00:47:12.920 they don't understand. 910 00:47:13.000 --> 00:47:15.639 Oh yeah, And it's it's not that it's an moral 911 00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:19.280 excuse or anything. But usually what actually does happen is 912 00:47:19.320 --> 00:47:22.119 if you say no, someone else will say yes. So 913 00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:25.880 it's going to happen anyway. And again it's not and 914 00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:28.719 it's not an excuse for doing something that's unethical. But 915 00:47:28.719 --> 00:47:32.639 but still from a you know, a high level, you know, 916 00:47:33.039 --> 00:47:36.760 just looking at society overall, that's still the mechanism that's 917 00:47:36.760 --> 00:47:38.480 going to happen. You know, someone won't do it. 918 00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:42.079 Yeah, I wouldn't say yes, just because I'd code myself 919 00:47:42.079 --> 00:47:42.920 into a corner, you know. 920 00:47:43.039 --> 00:47:45.480 Yeah, but that's but you also that you senior, just 921 00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:48.559 like you know Richard is and and what Richard talked 922 00:47:48.559 --> 00:47:51.000 about you know. You can actually have success with these 923 00:47:51.039 --> 00:47:52.920 things if you you know, if you know a lot 924 00:47:52.960 --> 00:47:56.440 of enough about programming, and even if you've never seen 925 00:47:56.440 --> 00:48:01.400 a language before, you've seen other languages that are similar 926 00:48:01.519 --> 00:48:04.119 enough that you can probably still get a good sense 927 00:48:04.119 --> 00:48:06.639 of if you ask it to write you know, if 928 00:48:06.639 --> 00:48:08.960 you don't know, go, I don't know go. If I 929 00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:12.039 ask you know, an LM to write me something and go, 930 00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:14.320 I would probably have a fairly good idea about what 931 00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:16.840 it is that it produced, and I'd have to look 932 00:48:16.920 --> 00:48:19.239 up a few things and so on. But again the 933 00:48:19.280 --> 00:48:22.119 problem is if you're not even a programmer from the beginning, 934 00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:25.440 or if you're a junior, as we talked about, then 935 00:48:25.519 --> 00:48:26.920 that gets a lot harder. 936 00:48:27.079 --> 00:48:30.360 But still, if it was you know, a language like reactor, 937 00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:33.840 you know JavaScript, but you know, if Reactor is going 938 00:48:33.920 --> 00:48:36.199 to do something, how do I know that it did 939 00:48:36.199 --> 00:48:39.119 it the right way or the most efficient way, or 940 00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:40.880 you know that there isn't a better way? 941 00:48:41.239 --> 00:48:42.239 I don't Yeah. 942 00:48:42.320 --> 00:48:44.360 Yeah, So what I would do is I would hire 943 00:48:44.400 --> 00:48:47.880 a subcontractor that does React, and I would encourage them 944 00:48:47.920 --> 00:48:53.639 to use the LM because of the agents, because they'll 945 00:48:53.679 --> 00:48:56.039 be more productive, sure, especially if they're charging me by 946 00:48:56.079 --> 00:48:59.199 the hour. That's another question. How ethical is it to 947 00:48:59.320 --> 00:49:01.679 charge by the project versus by the hour? 948 00:49:01.800 --> 00:49:04.840 Now fair enough, but still it comes down to accountability 949 00:49:04.880 --> 00:49:08.079 because if you hire a sub contractor, you need to 950 00:49:08.119 --> 00:49:12.079 trust that some subcontractor to actually do the right thing, 951 00:49:12.920 --> 00:49:16.480 and and and and absolutely and and that's that's another 952 00:49:16.519 --> 00:49:19.199 problem that we tend to have with ais in general 953 00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:22.960 is they're not really accountable right now. We don't have 954 00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:26.920 any laws that govern how you know, who has responsibility 955 00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:29.559 for the output of them. And as Richard said, well, 956 00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:32.360 we even know how to deal with with software development, 957 00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:35.039 but if we're looking at the broader picture of just 958 00:49:35.880 --> 00:49:37.840 you know, asking it to do all sorts of other 959 00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:40.159 tasks for us in the in the rest of the world, 960 00:49:40.239 --> 00:49:43.039 you know, outside of software, you know who's accountable then, 961 00:49:43.119 --> 00:49:46.920 and we we don't know they're

they're not, so we're 962 00:49:47.159 --> 00:49:49.000 sort of stuck with, you know whatever. 963 00:49:50.719 --> 00:49:54.920 We saw companies using their their AI bots as an excuse, 964 00:49:56.159 --> 00:49:59.400 uh when bot gave them bad advice. Remember that one, Richard, 965 00:49:59.400 --> 00:50:02.039 I think it was an line thing, whether refund or something. 966 00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:05.880 Yeah, that was the Air Canada incident. Yeah, where where 967 00:50:06.079 --> 00:50:09.199 a bot told a customer or you'll be able to 968 00:50:09.199 --> 00:50:11.199 get a refund on that. So they went ahead and 969 00:50:11.239 --> 00:50:12.519 did the thing. When they went to get the refund, 970 00:50:12.519 --> 00:50:15.159 they were refused and ultimately ended up in front of 971 00:50:15.159 --> 00:50:17.679 a judge and the judge said, use the bot as 972 00:50:17.679 --> 00:50:19.480 if it was an employee. If an employee said that, 973 00:50:19.519 --> 00:50:22.320 you'd have to make it true. So the bot qualifies. Yeah, 974 00:50:23.239 --> 00:50:25.559 and they had to issue the refund and it just 975 00:50:25.800 --> 00:50:29.559 was a you know, the interesting part was considering that 976 00:50:29.639 --> 00:50:34.320 Air Canada had made a publicly accessible tool that early on. Yeah, 977 00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:37.079 and at least in Canada now has set a piece 978 00:50:37.079 --> 00:50:40.199 of case law in place. Not a bad thing. I'm 979 00:50:40.199 --> 00:50:43.559 not unhappy with that outcome. No, that's I don't want them. Yeah, 980 00:50:43.920 --> 00:50:47.559 cautionary tale to other companies, right, test and be prepared 981 00:50:47.599 --> 00:50:49.480 to pay for the consequences exactly. 982 00:50:49.599 --> 00:50:52.079 So that also means that if you can sort of 983 00:50:52.159 --> 00:50:54.679 sense as a customer that you are that you have 984 00:50:54.679 --> 00:50:57.239 an ill limit the other end, you just keep asking it, 985 00:50:57.719 --> 00:51:00.599 you know, variations of the same questions until you get 986 00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:04.960 something you like and then you pounce on that. Oh yeah, 987 00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:06.199 I'll take that deal, thank you. 988 00:51:07.639 --> 00:51:10.519 Yeah. I remember asking about are you a bot? And 989 00:51:10.519 --> 00:51:13.719 it said no, my name is whatever from blah blah blah. 990 00:51:13.840 --> 00:51:15.639 Yeah, sure, yeah, I. 991 00:51:15.559 --> 00:51:17.840 Think we should. I think that should should be a 992 00:51:17.880 --> 00:51:21.920 law that says, well, they are not allowed to impersonate humans, but. 993 00:51:22.159 --> 00:51:22.719 You should know. 994 00:51:22.920 --> 00:51:24.639 I have to wonder if we had done a better 995 00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:26.880 job on privacy in the first place, if we wouldn't 996 00:51:26.880 --> 00:51:29.559 be dealing with quite as many issues as we've got. Yeah, 997 00:51:29.679 --> 00:51:32.239 that doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to try. Like I'm 998 00:51:33.119 --> 00:51:35.039 we talk about the challenges of the gen Z and 999 00:51:35.079 --> 00:51:39.960 younger generations. It's this using despairs and excuse not to try. Yeah, hey, 1000 00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:44.280 it's not an excuse. You have to continue to be 1001 00:51:44.400 --> 00:51:48.800 the best person you can be. Be the best programmer, dancer, electrician, 1002 00:51:48.960 --> 00:51:51.119 whatever it is you are. Be the best you can 1003 00:51:51.159 --> 00:51:53.760 possibly be, and use the tools to your advantage. Don't 1004 00:51:53.800 --> 00:51:59.199 become a tool yourself. All right, at all? In all, 1005 00:51:59.199 --> 00:52:00.000 I'm pretty optimistic. 1006 00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:02.679 Yeah, I actually am too. 1007 00:52:03.079 --> 00:52:09.119 Well, I'm not, but that's just my disposition. 1008 00:52:08.639 --> 00:52:10.920 To see some patterns happening again. It's like, oh boy, 1009 00:52:10.960 --> 00:52:13.119 we get to learn this problem again. Oh you've been 1010 00:52:13.119 --> 00:52:15.679 trusting software. Huh, All right, here we go. 1011 00:52:15.840 --> 00:52:17.760 We're gonna have to trust but you know what, the 1012 00:52:17.840 --> 00:52:20.199 chickens will come home to rust, like we've said, Richard, 1013 00:52:20.360 --> 00:52:22.840 and you know the rest of the people will wake 1014 00:52:22.920 --> 00:52:24.679 up and say, oh we need to do this, we 1015 00:52:24.719 --> 00:52:27.079 need to do that. We can't just rely on these things. 1016 00:52:27.679 --> 00:52:30.599 So yeah, there'll there will be some pain for sure. Yeah, 1017 00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:34.960 but ultimately come down to people and the decisions they make. Yeah, yeah, okay, 1018 00:52:35.360 --> 00:52:36.000 is that a show? 1019 00:52:36.360 --> 00:52:37.159 I think it's a show? 1020 00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:41.199 All right, Mark, thank you. It's always always awesome talking 1021 00:52:41.239 --> 00:52:41.519 to you. 1022 00:52:41.840 --> 00:52:44.039 It's a pleasure, all right. Thank you for having me. 1023 00:52:44.199 --> 00:52:46.480 You bet, and we'll see you next time on dot 1024 00:52:46.519 --> 00:53:09.039 net rocks. Dot net Rocks is brought to you by 1025 00:53:09.119 --> 00:53:13.800 Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, 1026 00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:18.360 video and post production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, 1027 00:53:18.599 --> 00:53:23.400 and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com. 1028 00:53:23.599 --> 00:53:25.760 Visit our website at d O T N E T 1029 00:53:25.960 --> 00:53:30.000 R O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, 1030 00:53:30.159 --> 00:53:33.840 mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going 1031 00:53:33.880 --> 00:53:37.239 back to show number one, recorded in September two thousand 1032 00:53:37.280 --> 00:53:37.519 and two. 1033 00:53:38.159 --> 00:53:40.480 And make sure you check out our sponsors. They keep 1034 00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:43.760 us in business. Now, go write some code, see you 1035 00:53:43.800 --> 00:53:44.199 next time. 1036 00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:46.960 You got jam Vans 1037 00:53:49.000 --> 00:54:01.519 And for the pass