النص الكامل لحلقة Lost Time: How Innocent Men Found Their Way Home

group and they do uh, plays in other art forms. 00:04:45.663 --> 00:04:53.899 Um, one thing I thought was really interesting was that in all these plays or skits, they were played by the actual people who these things happen to. 00:04:53.899 --> 00:05:03.817 So, as the you know, plays went on and you start realizing, like man, this guy up on the stage was wrongfully convicted and served 25 years, 15 years, like you know, it starts blowing your mind. 00:05:03.817 --> 00:05:15.694 You know, you hear that, that buzzword you know, uh, resilience a lot, but when you see somebody up there acting out such a dramatic event right from their own life, like you're like wow, you know, like it hits a little different. 00:05:15.694 --> 00:05:18.471 So I really really appreciated that these guys got up there and did that. 00:05:18.692 --> 00:05:25.477 It's selfless and it's courageous to go through that again, to want to share that story with strangers well, not even just as a one-time only, like, uh, you know. 00:05:25.697 --> 00:05:27.641 As for me said, this is a uh, the show in columbus. 00:05:27.641 --> 00:05:34.360 We saw it in columbus at the lincoln theater and this was one night, but they told us at the end that it's traveling, uh, to like five other cities detroit, somewhere in indiana, chicago, etc. 00:05:34.360 --> 00:05:44.598 And so not just to put it on and tell your story one time, but like to do it in this lived uh, live theater type of an environment over and over and over again. 00:05:44.598 --> 00:05:47.682 I mean, think about live audience and then traveling to do the same, um, I'm sure there is a healing. 00:05:47.682 --> 00:05:49.785 Maybe that feels cathartic and those experiences too. 00:05:49.785 --> 00:05:51.495 I mean, I don't want to uh assume, but I would. 00:05:51.495 --> 00:05:54.953 I would imagine there has to be some component of that that goes beyond, just like I need people to hear my story. 00:05:54.973 --> 00:06:02.555 But maybe this is a little bit for self also yeah, so, yeah, um, because I mean, like you said, just rehearsing could be traumatic, reliving that, um. 00:06:02.555 --> 00:06:08.120 And like you said, jacob, I really, really thought it was interesting how many lawyers were in the crowd, the audience. 00:06:08.120 --> 00:06:14.173 I don't know if that was like, if it was really aimed at lawyers or if they just heard about it, but hey, this sounds really interesting. 00:06:14.173 --> 00:06:14.715 We should go check it out. 00:06:14.715 --> 00:06:21.990 We also don't know how many of those people were on the prosecution side or former prosecution, because a lot of defense lawyers seem to be former prosecutors, which is weird. 00:06:21.990 --> 00:06:27.834 But yeah, I mean, that's huge because it kind of gives you what's the word I'm looking for. 00:06:27.834 --> 00:06:31.317 It helps you view your own craft through a different lens. 00:06:31.317 --> 00:06:44.286 It makes it just a little bit more important to understand the gravity of making sure you get it right, because some of these guys I believe I can't remember which one, but he said he was sentenced after like 45 days of being charged, which was unheard of. 00:06:46.189 --> 00:06:47.132 I've never heard anything like that. 00:06:47.132 --> 00:06:51.463 Yeah, that was the Ruel Saylor story and I think it was the last one, but they were all really powerful, I think of their own. 00:06:51.850 --> 00:07:01.665 What was really powerful about that was that he said that he had such belief in the legal system that he cooperated through the whole thing, thinking that they're going to know this isn't me, they're going to catch the right person, yeah. 00:07:01.665 --> 00:07:06.239 And then he ended up going to prison and while in prison he maintained that same thought process. 00:07:06.239 --> 00:07:08.620 It's like they're going to realize I'm innocent, they're going to let me out. 00:07:08.620 --> 00:07:12.125 And he talked about how his spirit slowly started to crumble over the years. 00:07:12.125 --> 00:07:15.939 After you know appeal requests and records requests and all of this gets denied. 00:07:15.939 --> 00:07:17.875 He's like man, like am I really going to get out? 00:07:17.896 --> 00:07:18.036 of here. 00:07:18.036 --> 00:07:20.552 Yeah, I think there was a component of that to each of them. 00:07:20.552 --> 00:07:26.257 Does it make sense for us to kind talked about? 00:07:26.257 --> 00:07:27.619 The play is called the Lynched Among Us. 00:07:27.619 --> 00:07:32.043 It is put on by the Voices of Injustice and we'll put this in the show notes but you can go to that website, voicesofinjusticecom. 00:07:32.043 --> 00:07:35.045 They're always looking for donations to make sure that this gets spread far and wide. 00:07:35.045 --> 00:07:46.341 They have a lot of good sponsorship, of course. 00:07:46.341 --> 00:07:49.504 We said we saw it at the Lincoln I injustice and how that's being amplified through current administration. 00:07:49.504 --> 00:07:58.096 There was also we Amplify Voices, the Greater Columbus Arts Council let's see what's this one say Youth Ministry Program and of course, the Voices of Injustice themselves. 00:07:58.437 --> 00:08:02.274 So the first story well, first Larice Glover hosted and he gave his own testimony, so we'll talk about him in a little bit. 00:08:02.274 --> 00:08:06.283 But the first story was the Michael Sutton story, which I think is, particularly in Ohio, is a pretty common name. 00:08:06.283 --> 00:08:11.192 If people are thinking about innocence and the Innocence Project, which came up a lot throughout the play, michael Sutton is a name that comes up pretty frequently. 00:08:11.192 --> 00:08:15.156 So I'm just going to read the description in the playbill and then we can talk about it, if that makes sense to you both. 00:08:15.958 --> 00:08:24.939 Michael Sutton was 17 when he and friends were out driving celebrating their upcoming graduation. 00:08:24.939 -->

00:08:31.927 On 55th and Woodland adjacent vehicle, cleveland police pulled Michael and his friends over claiming the boys jumped out and fled the scene, shooting at them in the process. 00:08:31.927 --> 00:08:35.110 For the four young boys who just witnessed the shooting, this is where their nightmare begins. 00:08:35.110 --> 00:08:43.345 A compassionate judge, however, releases Michael on bond to attend his high school graduation, but the police storm the school and arrest young Michael, where he is booked, afterwards convicted and sentenced to 46 years in prison. 00:08:43.345 --> 00:08:48.526 This is a heralding story of how one young man with a full scholarship and promising future overcame the toughest trials of his life and won. 00:08:49.807 --> 00:08:51.308 Yeah, that's insane. 00:08:51.308 --> 00:08:56.419 I remember him talking about how I mean he told the cops like hey, you got the wrong guy. 00:08:56.419 --> 00:09:04.241 Like I'm about to graduate tomorrow, you know, full ride, scholarship and everything, and it's just like I said before, like you have such faith that they got to notice this in me. 00:09:04.241 --> 00:09:06.222 You know, and it't work out that way. 00:09:06.242 --> 00:09:09.164 It's insane I think what was compelling about this one in particular. 00:09:09.164 --> 00:09:13.447 So, like we said earlier, the michael sutton played himself in in this retelling, but also his parents were there. 00:09:13.447 --> 00:09:17.276 So when they showed the graduation scene and how the police came in and pulled him out, it was his real parents. 00:09:17.276 --> 00:09:21.548 They're like with microphones on crying and yelling at them to stop it and I thought that was really powerful. 00:09:21.548 --> 00:09:26.158 Maybe it's because I am a parent, but like that really got to me in terms of his story at the beginning of that tale. 00:09:26.478 --> 00:09:30.985 Yeah, michael Sutton's part of the play, as DJ said, it was the beginning opening story. 00:09:30.985 --> 00:09:39.436 Each of these five men were, I believe, allowed to choose kind of the artistic form that they wanted to express their story, and so he chose it as a play and chose, like, different scenes from. 00:09:39.436 --> 00:09:40.620 You know everything that happened to him. 00:09:40.620 --> 00:09:52.756 So, as Remy said, you know it was like him partying with his friends and then the police arresting him, then a scene of him at trial where the judge released him to go to his graduation, but then immediately following the next scene was the graduation, where the police stormed the graduation and arrested him in front of all his peers and family and friends. 00:09:52.756 --> 00:09:57.839 So each artistic expression for each individual in this play meant something to them. 00:09:58.461 --> 00:10:03.591 There was some comedy to this, even though the stories are very powerful, and so we'll get to kind of the comedic parts in a little bit. 00:10:03.591 --> 00:10:15.679 But I am just sitting there remembering each of these scenes from Michael's story and how, like you know, he played himself in that interrogation room and then the prosecutor comes in and I believe didn't do a rap, he did a rap, it was really good. 00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:20.120 It was a really good rap, but it was basically to tell Michael like listen, I don't give a shit about whether you're innocent or not. 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:21.875 We're going to put somebody behind bars, and it happens to be you. 00:10:28.929 --> 00:10:30.466 Directly preceding that rap was a very important, very powerful thing. 00:10:30.466 --> 00:10:32.739 That, um, it's one of the reasons why I think that the public needs to be more educated about what goes on behind the scenes. 00:10:32.739 --> 00:10:39.774 And I don't know if you guys saw the same way as I did, but if you notice, in the very beginning, um, michael seemed to be very relaxed. 00:10:39.774 --> 00:10:44.682 He was very, like, kind of nonchalant, and they asked him questions and he just went along with it. 00:10:44.682 --> 00:10:45.542 Yeah, yeah, just went along with it. 00:10:45.542 --> 00:10:46.062 Yeah, yeah, this and that. 00:10:46.082 --> 00:10:49.084 And then it wasn't until he realized, like wait a minute, you guys are trying to pin this on me. 00:10:49.084 --> 00:10:53.506 And they were just like, yeah, basically, like it's you, nobody else, and this is what it's gonna be. 00:10:53.506 --> 00:11:00.060 And once he realized like there was nothing he could say to get out of that, like that was when it was like, oh man, like let me take this serious. 00:11:00.060 --> 00:11:07.302 And the reason why I say that that's a very powerful moment is because there are a lot of people who go through this and they have trust in the legal system and they think that I'm just here to help you guys. 00:11:07.302 --> 00:11:10.209 And then they've already said by the time they take it seriously. 00:11:10.209 --> 00:11:15.510 They've already said enough damaging or incriminating things, that they pretty much for lack of a better term they fuck themselves. 00:11:15.510 --> 00:11:26.143 You know, and that's hard to deal with, as especially as an 18, 19 year old person, you know, with no experience a piece that I like about the uh retelling of this was the videos, um that they played for each story. 00:11:26.182 --> 00:11:38.037 so so particularly for Michael's story as it went through his time in prison and how he kind of got through his mental demons and those kinds of things, I appreciated the video they also played in the background with some music to that, particularly the live footage of when he got released. 00:11:38.037 --> 00:11:39.375 I think that was really powerful. 00:11:39.375 --> 00:11:43.058 It wasn't just a scene of him getting out, they showed the media there helping him get out. 00:11:43.149 --> 00:11:44.932 And I thought it was fun because it was the same guy from the innocence project. 00:11:44.932 -->

00:11:53.735 Like in all three of the videos, the lawyer was the same lawyer and finally made it happen, but it was 2022 and he got convicted in 2007, so I mean, I don't do math, so, but that's a really long time. 00:11:53.735 --> 00:12:05.876 It's a long time for a child who's innocent, and I think that you know these are contributing factors in all of these cases, but they were just black men in the wrong place at the wrong time, which calls into question like, where is it right to be a black man and what time is right? 00:12:06.197 --> 00:12:08.500 Because if you're in cell, which is the wrong place at the wrong time, we assumed it was you. 00:12:08.500 --> 00:12:12.605 Like, what does that say about the biases that are systemically embedded? 00:12:12.605 --> 00:12:31.436 Because, like we're talking about, it's the fault of the legal system that Michael was put behind bars in the first place and so for him to kind of then, because part of it was play, and then he came out and kind of just gave a verbal testimony, him getting released, and I thought it was a really powerful, uh, use of media and audio and visual retelling. 00:12:31.456 --> 00:12:31.937 So um with michael. 00:12:31.937 --> 00:12:39.711 There was another very um powerful thing that he said, and we actually talked about this in a previous episode where we talked about what you have to become to survive prison. 00:12:39.711 --> 00:12:52.105 The prosecution and the judge don't really care, or maybe they don't know what type of environment they send you to and you're just a person who maybe you're not that bad of a, maybe you happen to have a bad situation out there, but on paper it's very like cut and dry. 00:12:52.105 --> 00:12:54.797 You know, for them they say this was a violent crime. 00:12:54.797 --> 00:12:56.380 You know this was X, y and Z. 00:12:56.380 --> 00:12:59.283 So they send you to a high security prison where only violent people go. 00:12:59.745 --> 00:13:11.515 Now here we're talking about a kid that was just about to graduate high school and go is very you know, it's a thing that'll get you targeted in prison, because everybody knows you can't afford to get in trouble, you know. 00:13:11.515 --> 00:13:27.605 So he spoke about how, after exhausting all of these avenues and getting denied, eventually he had to do certain things you know, different hustles that weren't really above board so that he could pay his lawyer, you know, and by the time he got out, I'm not really for certain Is this the one who said he went to Lucasville. 00:13:28.586 --> 00:13:30.466 I don't remember the specifics. 00:13:30.486 --> 00:13:41.803 He was in solitary when his lawyer called yeah, so I'm not sure for certain if this was the one, but he said he was in solitary confinement when his lawyer came to get him out of prison, which we did an episode on Lucasville, that was real well. 00:13:41.903 --> 00:13:42.445 That was the last one. 00:13:42.445 --> 00:13:47.099 Okay, I had sorry, I will edit that out. 00:13:47.119 --> 00:13:49.004 No, that's okay, it's okay, we'll just clarify it when we get there. 00:13:49.289 --> 00:13:54.669 But I mean, the point is, though, like you're trying to maintain your innocence, you're surrounded by all this, you know, negativity. 00:13:54.669 --> 00:14:09.703 You come into a high-security prison there's no peace, you know, but you're trying to cooperate to get out that actually, when we were there and I went and introduced myself to them, I had let them know that, hey, man, I did 10 years in prison and this really inspired me and stuff. 00:14:09.703 --> 00:14:20.832 But I felt it was important to let them know, like what I did, what I went to prison for, just so we don't think we're gonna bond over this innocence, you know, and so like, because I said before I would hate to tell somebody like that I understand what you're going through, when I have no lived experience of that matter. 00:14:20.832 --> 00:14:24.917 So it was, it was powerful and it really really opened my eyes to a lot, so much stuff that even I didn't know. 00:14:25.538 --> 00:14:28.760 Yeah, you kept saying Remy maintain his innocence. 00:14:28.760 --> 00:14:53.091 And I've just been thinking about that ever since we saw the play, because I can't even begin to comprehend the psychological turmoil that these men have faced and their experiences to be sent to prison, wrongfully convicted, and almost no one I mean, you know, like general public and institution-wise, you know maybe your family believes you but almost no one to be on your side and to feel that powerless but then, at the same point in time, to know innately that you didn't do anything wrong. 00:14:53.091 --> 00:15:01.472 I mean that is just like some kind of meta level of like gaslighting that I don't think hopefully anyone listening or, you know, any friend of this podcast will ever have to experience in their lifetime. 00:15:01.472 --> 00:15:20.936 But it happens and you know we have in America, of course, I'm sure you've mentioned this in the podcast before but the presumption of innocence ends. 00:15:20.936 --> 00:15:26.544 So while Michael and all these men were being held for questioning, before they were arrested formally or before they were sentenced or convicted, they were all supposed to be, under the law, presumed innocent. 00:15:26.565 --> 00:15:27.866 So the idea of maintaining one's innocence is just so crazy. 00:15:27.866 --> 00:15:28.488 To a I have to maintain a? 00:15:28.488 --> 00:15:30.030 Um argumentative stance or a belief in that. 00:15:30.030 --> 00:15:35.874 It's like I'm factually innocent like michael was factually innocent in his case and it like I. 00:15:35.874 --> 00:15:43.176 I again can't comprehend how you deal with that, on top of the layers of trauma and stuff that you're facing um being sent to any kind of correctional facility. 00:15:43.576 --> 00:15:55.975 Um being unable to see the people that you love or care about, um at most,

almost every day of your life, not being able to communicate with the outside world, missing out on opportunities that you were about to have, such as, in Michael's case, the fact that he was about to go to college on a full ride. 00:15:55.975 --> 00:16:14.842 We can't, there's no way to repair the damage that was done in these cases, and so that means to me it's more important that we get these messages out and people understand that it happens, and the fact that even one person is sent to innocent that is innocent, is sent to prison, is an atrocity. 00:16:14.842 --> 00:16:18.239 It's something akin to some of the worst human rights violations I can think of. 00:16:18.239 --> 00:16:19.142 Yeah absolutely. 00:16:19.250 --> 00:16:25.033 I try to be objective and understand that it's no way to be 100% sure With the way the legal system is set up. 00:16:25.234 --> 00:16:28.962 Of course there's going to be some people who slip in there, who are wrongfully convicted. 00:16:28.962 --> 00:16:39.581 For me, I hate the way that they have to go to all these extents to prove their innocence and in some cases they prove it and still have to stay in there because of the process, the formal process you have to go through. 00:16:39.581 --> 00:16:55.548 So there was one guy I'm sorry my memory isn't the best so I can't really remember whose story it was but he said he went to the parole board and the parole board had zero sympathy for him because he would not show remorse, which is one of the big things that the parole board wants to see if they want to decide to let you go. 00:16:55.548 --> 00:16:58.157 But they were saying we can't let you go, you haven't shown any remorse. 00:16:58.157 --> 00:16:58.919 And he's like I didn't do it. 00:16:58.919 --> 00:17:01.918 And they're like well, go back and think about it, do some more time. 00:17:01.918 --> 00:17:10.385 It's on them to collect and hunt down the information that will prove their innocence, and they have to do it all from a jail cell. 00:17:11.126 --> 00:17:13.675 Yeah, do you want to talk about the next piece? 00:17:13.675 --> 00:17:17.600 So the next component was a testimony. 00:17:17.600 --> 00:17:18.836 So Larise Glover gave that testimony. 00:17:18.836 --> 00:17:38.971 He was also the host of the Evening, so not Charles' story, it wasn't theatrical, he just stood up no-transcript, broad daylight and authorities quickly identified three teenagers luis glover, derrick wheat and eugene johnson as the prime suspects. 00:17:38.971 --> 00:17:52.695 The the gunshot residue found on Wheat's clothing, which they argued was evidence of his involvement. 00:17:52.695 --> 00:17:59.149 However, the defense contested the claim, emphasizing that the lack of forensic evidence linking the three to the crime and argued that Harris's vantage point made it unlikely that she could clearly identify the shooter. 00:17:59.149 --> 00:18:03.875 Despite these concerns, all three teenagers were convicted of murder and sentenced to life in prison, with parole eligibility after 18 years. 00:18:04.356 --> 00:18:06.839 Years later, critical evidence emerged that undermined the prosecution's case. 00:18:06.839 --> 00:18:11.545 Harris recounted her testimony, admitting that she had been pressured by police into identifying them as the defendants. 00:18:11.545 --> 00:18:21.380 Moreover, police files that were never disclosed to the defense that was my favorite part of the story, so I want to highlight that so that you can tell me to remember to come back, because I'll forget contained records pointing to alternate suspects and threats against Hudson before his murder. 00:18:21.380 --> 00:18:26.701 These suppressed documents suggested that authorities may have ignored other leads in their rush to convict the three teenagers. 00:18:26.701 --> 00:18:29.909 With this new evidence, leverett, wheat and Johnson's convictions were overturned in 2015. 00:18:29.909 --> 00:18:30.892 That's 20 years. 00:18:30.892 --> 00:18:36.798 By the way, the following year, all charges were dismissed, officially exonerating them after they had spent two decades behind bars for a crime they did not commit. 00:18:36.798 --> 00:18:45.174 Their case highlights systemic issues of wrongful convictions, including unreliable witness testimony, prosecutorial misconduct and the failure to disclose evidence. 00:18:49.289 --> 00:18:50.853 I was going to get there in the end, but I appreciate that. 00:18:50.853 --> 00:18:51.895 Yeah, I think, before anybody else, if it's okay. 00:18:51.895 --> 00:18:55.583 I think what was really compelling to me about Louise's testimony was about the documents. 00:18:55.583 --> 00:19:06.260 I know you just started to talk about this that they tried to subpoena these public records from the police department for 20 years and when they finally got like they tried and tried and tried, their defense lawyers and the Innocence Project tried and they couldn't get them. 00:19:06.260 --> 00:19:11.620 And then they gave it like one last hail, mary, and there'd been transitions within the documents in public records department and so they just on a fluke, got them. 00:19:11.620 --> 00:19:25.833 Uh, the last, the very last time they were going to request them as an appeal um, and when they received the documents, the very front page said that if the, if the um public records department released the police files, they could be charged with um misconduct which I thought was super by the police department, which is crazy. 00:19:25.833 --> 00:19:28.909 So the police were threatening the public records department, the prosecutor. 00:19:28.929 --> 00:19:29.514 I'm sorry the prosecutor. 00:19:29.514 --> 00:19:32.163 The prosecutor wrote on there do not release these or you'll be prosecuted. 00:19:32.163 --> 00:19:36.384 Yes, thank you, but the thing about that which I thought was insane was 20 years went by 20. 00:19:36.384 --> 00:19:37.026 2-0. 00:19:37.026 --> 00:19:39.843 These records

requests were the primary thing in the battle. 00:19:39.843 --> 00:19:44.006 I mean, they were the first thing you do is make requests for the records before you even start fighting in other places. 00:19:44.006 --> 00:19:59.602 So the fact that they never acknowledged it and they didn't acknowledge it, no matter how many times they asked for it, so I thought that was insane I also thought that there was um in larissa's. 00:19:59.622 --> 00:20:00.826 Can you hear my carbonation, is it? 00:20:00.826 --> 00:20:02.379 I can hear you asking about it. 00:20:02.379 --> 00:20:04.065 You should leave that too. 00:20:04.065 --> 00:20:06.894 Um, for larissa's uh testimony, I was. 00:20:06.894 --> 00:20:08.139 He said the statement and you alluded to this earlier. 00:20:08.159 --> 00:20:10.367 When he um, he said that he was a completely innocent person, but now he has to adapt to this. 00:20:10.367 --> 00:20:16.679 Earlier, remy, he said that he was a completely innocent person, but now he has to adapt to this environment where not everybody is and he's like so by putting me in here as an innocent person. 00:20:16.679 --> 00:20:20.548 I now have to become the thing you think I am, and I thought that was a really powerful thing about. 00:20:20.548 --> 00:20:27.805 I have to now survive in this environment, so I have to become the very thing you think or have told me that I am, when it never was who I was, and that was a really powerful takeaway. 00:20:27.805 --> 00:20:30.149 Back to your point, jacob, about like that psychological toll. 00:20:30.149 --> 00:20:42.144 Like I can't imagine the mental fortitude one would have to take if they've never been kind of in that type of an environment or if you're innocent of this thing and you're not really caught up in these other things, like how eye-opening prison environment would be. 00:20:42.687 --> 00:20:51.631 Uh, and you also have to change your rhetoric right, because you have to survive in there, you have to maintain your safety, and so you can't even say stuff like I'm not even supposed to be in here, because you're kind of alluding to the fact that everybody else is supposed to be here. 00:20:51.631 --> 00:20:52.113 What are you saying? 00:20:52.113 --> 00:20:53.276 You're not like us, you're better than us, you know. 00:20:53.276 --> 00:20:55.080 So I mean, it's insane. 00:20:55.080 --> 00:20:57.206 It was pretty heartbreaking to tell these stories. 00:20:58.375 --> 00:21:12.430 I've been thinking a lot about, not just in this context but in kind of my professional work and everything about stigma and shame and kind of my own definitions would be like shame is something, a feeling that you have, that is, internal control. 00:21:12.450 --> 00:21:33.789 You have internal locus control, so I can feel ashamed that I did something usually is accompanied by guilt, not always because you can be ashamed that you're associated with something you know that you maybe don't want to be, or something where you didn't

have any guilt or any wrongdoing, but a lot of times it is associated with guilt, whereas stigma is externally controlled and is forced upon you by other people, by society at large, and so anyone who enters the criminal justice system faces stigma of some degree. 00:21:34.294 --> 00:22:02.852 It's usually, I assume, pretty bad, because you're either found guilty and you know you're guilty and your life is going to always be, you know a kind of product of the fact that you made this mistake and that, even though you might have paid for it with prison time or whatever, it's following you the rest of your life, or the fact that you weren't guilty but everyone thinks you were, and so you know like him, well, all these men, but um, in this case, um, him going in there and having to change who he is at the core because he didn't. 00:22:03.474 --> 00:22:09.382 Um, he wanted to one survive prison and but while he was trying to still say I'm an innocent person or keep that belief inside himself. 00:22:09.382 --> 00:22:12.507 That to me is just like an egregious form of stigma. 00:22:12.507 --> 00:22:20.230 Like how, how does one cope with that, knowing that I can't control that everyone perceives me this way, even though I, you know they shouldn't? 00:22:20.230 --> 00:22:25.425 They shouldn't perceive me that way and um, that almost causes you, I would think, to have some kind of shame. 00:22:25.425 --> 00:22:28.157 That isn't, that's unfounded, like the shame shouldn't be there. 00:22:28.157 --> 00:22:36.589 But you, I, people in a situation could go through some kind of shame feeling because they are starting to believe, because they're in a situation, that they are what people tell them they are. 00:22:36.674 --> 00:22:40.065 I think that kind of piggybacks with your other comment about the mental assault. 00:22:40.065 --> 00:22:45.805 We're not talking about a couple weeks, a couple months or even a couple years. 00:22:45.805 --> 00:22:46.890 We're talking about decades. 00:22:46.890 --> 00:22:48.733 That somebody is being assaulted with their reality. 00:22:48.733 --> 00:22:49.471 That is unfounded. 00:22:49.471 --> 00:22:50.569 That somebody's being assaulted with their reality. 00:22:50.569 --> 00:22:50.662 That is unfounded. 00:22:50.662 --> 00:22:56.325 And not only are you approaching the legal system which you are petitioning to advocate on your behalf because you're innocent. 00:22:56.325 --> 00:22:58.462 You think, hey, you guys should get this right, you should make it right. 00:22:58.462 --> 00:23:01.454 But when you approach the system like that, they're like everybody says they're innocent. 00:23:01.454 --> 00:23:04.440 You know you're just another person who's coming trying to get over the system. 00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:13.614 You know no-transcript. 00:23:13.614 --> 00:23:23.881 But really even your family, after a decade and a half, two decades, and they're seeing how much fight you're putting up and you're getting nowhere even them they will probably start to think like, yeah, maybe they do it. 00:23:23.881 --> 00:23:33.363 And that's sad, that's really. 00:23:33.363 --> 00:23:35.247 Over the years many people come and go in your support circle and they themselves have a mental battle to deal with. 00:23:35.247 --> 00:23:35.589 Their peers are out there like now are you? 00:23:35.589 --> 00:23:36.145 Why are you supporting that guy? 00:23:36.145 --> 00:23:38.251 You know a story like this I'm sure made the news. 00:23:38.251 --> 00:23:39.394 People are like, why are you supporting that guy? 00:23:39.394 --> 00:23:40.156 Hey, I'm sure he did. 00:23:40.156 --> 00:23:43.203 You know, it's not until you finally make it out. 00:23:43.203 --> 00:23:45.877 You, you know, you uh emerged victorious. 00:23:46.137 --> 00:23:48.403 That then all the naysayers started oh man, we always knew the whole time. 00:23:48.403 --> 00:23:54.340 You know, thank goodness he made it home, but I'm sure there were many people that were like he was in the center of this. 00:23:54.340 --> 00:23:56.080 It used to be kind of sneaky. 00:23:56.080 --> 00:23:57.400 I've heard people say the most ridiculous things. 00:23:57.400 --> 00:24:00.545 I remember a time he stole a candy bar Get the fuck out of here. 00:24:00.545 --> 00:24:07.701 Or even stuff that's pretty stereotypical, chewing out stuff Like oh man, I remember I caught them skipping school one time. 00:24:07.701 --> 00:24:13.278 Yeah, but skipping school is not a murder. 00:24:13.278 --> 00:24:18.344 Let's just not try to relate the two, you know, and let's just look at the evidence for what it is, because people will even come to those terms in spite of the evidence that they're in. 00:24:18.344 --> 00:24:22.500 They'll just use the fact that they haven't gotten out yet to justify in their mind that maybe they are guilty. 00:24:22.500 --> 00:24:23.883 That's sad. 00:24:24.083 --> 00:24:24.404 It is sad. 00:24:24.404 --> 00:24:42.490 Real quick I want to interject with a I recently came across well, was made aware, I should say, of a framework that is called the social safety theory and basically it's the idea that minority people especially face a lot of cumulative or multiplicative stress in their lifetimes and so that, you know, can contribute to really bad mental health and physical health outcomes across the lifespan. 00:24:42.490 --> 00:24:52.389 But also that there's this fact of social safety where you know if people are in an environment they feel are associated with safety, or they're with someone that they feel are associated with safety, then that can help improve their outcomes and their functioning overall. 00:24:52.389 --> 00:25:05.237 So now, incorporating that into what you're saying, like I'm wondering and I would like to ask people that have gone through this experience, like, did you at any point at least have one person that you felt like was in your corner the whole time? 00:25:05.237 --> 00:25:12.489 Because I would be like,

from the social safety perspective, if you have at least one person, then you're more likely to maintain resiliency. 00:25:12.894 --> 00:25:28.035 There's that buzzword again, which I am, so you know, I want to kind of shout out to people that I wish there was a world where they didn't have to maintain resiliency, that you know people didn't have to suffer and then be told that you know they're a better person because of it, like that's terrible. 00:25:28.035 --> 00:25:48.089 We should want better for all humanity, but given that that's the state of the world that we're in, I think that people that are in prison, and especially those who are wrongfully convicted and sent to prison, if they have even one person you know inside, outside, you know whatever that they feel like, is still fighting for them, still believing in them, I would guess that they would fare better. 00:25:48.089 --> 00:26:04.168 Of course, that's all relative to the total outcome of the experience, whether they actually make it out of prison or if they go through their entire sentence and are finally released on parole or something, but in this case, I hope that he had someone that he could still believe in, and I believe in him, I hope he does. 00:26:04.228 --> 00:26:11.103 Usually that person in a situation when it comes to incarceration usually that person is your parents, but we have to recognize that not everybody has parents Correct. 00:26:11.103 --> 00:26:17.911 Also, when you talk about resiliency, we have to understand that not everybody keeps their parents through the situation Correct Two decades. 00:26:17.911 --> 00:26:24.282 I know plenty of people who have done a lot less than two decades in prison, who have lost their parents or grandparents, which was another story. 00:26:24.402 --> 00:26:42.579 Yeah, he talked, I forget whose story it was, but gentleman released and he was able to go see his mom and it was his mother was, uh, in a coma, yeah, and he got to hold her hand and speak to her and she woke up and, uh, I think she she lived for a few more months, I think that was also real well, uh, because charles had the kidney, the kidney transplant yeah, charles got to give a kidney to his nephew. 00:26:42.619 --> 00:26:44.106 Yep, but I think it was real story. 00:26:44.106 --> 00:26:46.215 But I'm gonna, yeah, yeah, sorry, keep going. 00:26:46.215 --> 00:26:46.655 Oh, it's cool. 00:26:46.655 --> 00:26:55.829 I was just trying to remember whose name it was so we could attach it sorry, it's like three or four weeks ago at this point we don't have super bad memory and the thing that you talked about, um, kind of looks like. 00:26:56.596 --> 00:27:01.896 When you talk about um, these guys experiences, I mean, they're all innocent, regardless of what walk of life they had. 00:27:01.896 --> 00:27:05.515 I mean, some of them were just like young school kids, um, who had the most innocent of stories. 00:27:05.515 --> 00:27:12.388 Some one guy, um, I think was real who said, like I was a street guy, you know, I didn't do this crime, but I was in the streets. 00:27:12.388 --> 00:27:17.957 So, yes, he at least owned and knew what he was and what situation he was in. 00:27:17.957 --> 00:27:25.264 But my point is there's all this talk about black people or low-income people don't trust law enforcement. 00:27:25.264 --> 00:27:30.742 And when you talk about resiliency and how we praise these guys for making it out, we have to understand that yes, they made it out, but they didn't make it out unscathed. 00:27:30.742 --> 00:27:32.646 They lost a lot more than just the years. 00:27:32.646 --> 00:27:47.058 The people Like they have scars from the situation and when you already come from a place where you don't really trust law enforcement, the fact that they did and that they gave them their trust and thought that they would get them out of the situation is kind of a testament to itself of why people don't. 00:27:47.078 --> 00:27:48.940 I've always heard people say, well, why wouldn't you? 00:27:48.940 --> 00:27:49.981 You live in a high crime rate. 00:27:49.981 --> 00:27:51.122 Why wouldn't you trust law enforcement? 00:27:51.122 --> 00:28:00.028 I think me and you actually, debbie when, early in our relationship, I believe, we had a conversation where I told you I feel more safe in the hood than I do in the suburbs or than I do in rural areas. 00:28:00.028 --> 00:28:12.287 I'll go somewhere where I can clearly hear gunshots in the background and I was like cool as a cucumber, but driving into the suburbs is giving me anxiety. 00:28:12.287 --> 00:28:14.250 When I'm like, uh, you know, make sure you see me. 00:28:14.250 --> 00:28:21.702 I was like, well, we'll give him no reason to pull us over, you know, because you never know, as soon as you have that law enforcement situation, whether you know you fit the description of somebody they're looking for. 00:28:22.294 --> 00:29:03.350 And of course, you have it no-transcript circumstances, as remy, or that you know you've never been to prison yourself or something, then you know. 00:29:03.350 --> 00:29:06.224 Also think about the different ways that people might experience the same kind of trauma. 00:29:06.670 --> 00:29:09.735 I mean, I really myself, I don't, really. 00:29:09.735 --> 00:29:18.889 I don't really let it bother me a lot, except for times when I'm with my kids, because I would hate for my kids to have to witness something like that. 00:29:18.889 --> 00:29:22.359 But what we're talking about is, yeah, I have a criminal record, we all know that. 00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:30.062 But when you get pulled over and they run my plates, when I get pulled over and they run my plates, man, I got insurance to the max. 00:29:30.062 --> 00:29:33.678 I'm gainfully employed, I do mentorship, I do all this stuff. 00:29:33.678 --> 00:29:35.495 I am a perfect model of a citizen. 00:29:35.495 --> 00:29:36.057 I pay my taxes. 00:29:36.650 --> 00:29:43.976 I can't say I go to church

too much, but whatever, what I'm trying to say is, theoretically, I have zero to worry about, absolutely nothing to worry about when I get pulled over. 00:29:43.976 --> 00:29:50.258 But when I get pulled over, I got a lot to worry about, because the first thing that's going to come up beside my name, I'm sure, is going to say that I'm a violent felon. 00:29:50.258 --> 00:29:51.821 I have criminal history. 00:29:51.821 --> 00:29:54.724 They don't care that that was 16, 17 years ago. 00:29:54.724 --> 00:29:57.787 They're like, oh, okay, so now they're walking into their car with their hand on their pistol or something. 00:29:57.787 --> 00:30:02.957 That's the same for people who have citizenship issues or anything else Like, oh, they have an accent. 00:30:02.957 --> 00:30:08.094 Well, now they're probably thinking like, oh shit, I hope this cop doesn't think I'm an illegal. 00:30:08.094 --> 00:30:12.880 You know, just try to give me a hard time when they themselves also should have zero to worry about, absolutely. 00:30:14.121 --> 00:30:18.291 So I just wanted to recall we were talking about an individual whose mom was sick. 00:30:18.291 --> 00:30:22.693 That was Lamont Clark, and so we're going to talk about Lamont at the end, but just want to make sure we're putting the right names to things. 00:30:22.693 --> 00:30:25.531 So I did some back research while we were talking that through. 00:30:25.531 --> 00:30:28.255 The next story is when you're talking about injecting a little bit of humor. 00:30:28.255 --> 00:30:34.324 So the next story was the Charles Jackson story, and so I'm going to read the bio and we can talk about how Charles chose to showcase his story. 00:30:34.324 --> 00:30:36.456 So Charles Jackson. 00:30:36.729 --> 00:30:40.600 Fifteen-year-old Charles Jackson lived in fear of his older brother, tony, whose addiction had altered his behavior. 00:30:40.600 --> 00:30:46.795 But when Charles' young nephew, houston, bravely stood up to Tony, they both realized they're the true source of his intimidating behavior the grip of addiction. 00:30:46.795 --> 00:30:53.162 Charles' love and admiration for Tony remained unwavering, but he struggled to reconcile that with the harm caused by his addiction. 00:30:53.162 --> 00:31:00.932 This pain and experience forged an unbreakable bond between Houston and Charles, one that would last a lifetime. 00:31:00.932 --> 00:31:03.485 Charles Jackson's life took a devastating turn when he was falsely accused and framed by police for a murder he did not commit. 00:31:03.485 --> 00:31:08.050 Despite having two police officers as his alibis, charles was persuaded by his public defenders to withhold this crucial evidence from the jury. 00:31:08.050 --> 00:31:09.272 The consequences were dire. 00:31:09.272 --> 00:31:11.496 Charles was convicted and sentenced to 30 years to life in prison. 00:31:11.496 --> 00:31:15.203 While Charles languished behind bars, his nephew Houston's health began to deteriorate rapidly. 00:31:15.203 --> 00:31:17.718 Houston's kidneys were failing and he was forced to undergo dialysis. 00:31:17.718 --> 00:31:21.239 Charles, aware that he was a matching donor, was tormented by his inability to help. 00:31:23.109 --> 00:31:23.471 Charles. 00:31:23.471 --> 00:31:26.420 I appreciate it, charles' injection of humor into a story. 00:31:26.420 --> 00:31:40.469 No-transcript. 00:31:40.469 --> 00:31:40.850 Be a donor. 00:31:40.850 --> 00:31:47.312 Um, the lawyers, I mean when he talked about, hey, the officer out there at the desk, it's my alibi, I go talk to them. 00:31:47.312 --> 00:31:51.980 And his lawyers told him straight up, like you can't say you were running from a cop and that's why you didn't commit this murder. 00:31:51.980 --> 00:31:52.982 But it was true. 00:31:52.982 --> 00:31:53.523 But it was true. 00:31:53.523 --> 00:31:58.455 I mean, he said, like you know, hey, I stumbled out of the bar and these two cops approached me and I ran, mm-hmm. 00:31:59.077 --> 00:32:03.131 But obviously, and they chased him, yeah, they chased him, they were involved in a chase with him at the same time this murder was being committed. 00:32:03.732 --> 00:32:12.158 It's not the best excuse, it's not the best alibi, but it is one nonetheless. 00:32:12.158 --> 00:32:17.883 And the fact that he just so happened while coming to this meeting with his lawyers, he just so happened to pass the cop that was chasing him. 00:32:17.883 --> 00:32:19.905 It was like, wow, what else could you ask for? 00:32:19.905 --> 00:32:21.326 And he said no. 00:32:30.069 --> 00:32:34.929 I think what was fun I guess if there's anything fun about Charles' story was that he was the oldest man on the stage and so he had to play himself as the 27-year-old right and he literally ran, yeah, literally ran on stage. 00:32:35.089 --> 00:32:36.496 And then he paused because he was out of breath, you remember. 00:32:36.496 --> 00:32:40.340 So, like, this crime happened in 1991, and he was 27 years old when he got his conviction. 00:32:40.340 --> 00:32:59.484 So I think that that's important because obviously it's 2025 when he's putting on this play and he had been out since 2019. 00:32:59.484 --> 00:33:08.796 So I think we saw in everybody's stories, but his was more about collecting intel and stuff and making sure it was a fun time for him. 00:33:08.796 --> 00:33:11.602 So he sang Bohemian Rhapsody during a part where he was cleaning out the prison. 00:33:11.729 --> 00:33:17.977 So his job in prison was cleaning the hallways, but he just he said that being a porter was something that gave him a bit of freedom in there and helped him maintain his sanity. 00:33:18.350 --> 00:33:22.971 But he poorly, poorly sang that song for a solid three minutes, and it was he. 00:33:22.971 --> 00:33:27.635 Had the crowd behind him, though, so I just On the side of the innocence. 00:33:27.776 --> 00:33:37.206 You know, trying to prove his innocence, it wasn't just the fact that he had this

altercation with two cops and that could be his alibi, it's the fact that when you have an altercation with two police officers like that, it is well documented, you know. 00:33:37.206 --> 00:33:38.572 Obviously they knew who he was. 00:33:38.572 --> 00:33:41.221 Although he ran, he left his car there, he you know. 00:33:41.221 --> 00:33:51.202 So it's not like they could say, oh, we didn't know like the car was, might have been impounded, even I don't remember. 00:33:51.202 --> 00:33:54.847 There had to be numerous records that would say, oh yeah, this is what I got. 00:33:54.907 --> 00:33:57.695 Good thing we got him, though, because now we can hold him, you know, accountable for this other thing. 00:33:57.695 --> 00:33:58.819 But this isn't the fit for this. 00:33:58.819 --> 00:34:08.061 And instead his lawyer chose to say, no, we shouldn't tell him that, we should just take our chances, and that was a big miscarriage of justice, um big. 00:34:08.061 --> 00:34:08.420 I mean. 00:34:08.420 --> 00:34:13.097 I don't know if anything ever happened to those lawyers from like the Association or anything, but I would imagine that that was very frowned upon. 00:34:13.097 --> 00:34:15.563 Very, very bad advice for a lawyer to give somebody. 00:34:15.563 --> 00:34:18.059 It's a really good piece of evidence, but we should not talk about it at all. 00:34:18.710 --> 00:34:19.452 Yeah, charles' story. 00:34:19.452 --> 00:34:30.333 Just the ridiculousness and kind of humor of the fact that it's so crazy that he was running from the cops and then convicted for a crime while running from the cops, I think it sets the stage for the humor that he displayed throughout. 00:34:30.333 --> 00:34:34.277 I mean he incorporated, as DJ said, music, his singing. 00:34:34.277 --> 00:34:37.320 He's not going to have a career as a singer but as an entertainer. 00:34:37.320 --> 00:34:52.324 Yes, he brought a lot of entertainment to his segment of the show and it definitely livened up the crowd and helped, because you know, like these stories aren't just, you know, fun they're not supposed to be. 00:34:52.324 --> 00:34:56.257 But it helped to change the tone and provide a little bit of relief for the remaining stories that came. 00:34:56.869 --> 00:34:59.155 And, as we shared with the earlier stories, there was a mixed media method. 00:34:59.155 --> 00:35:05.855 So, even though in his last scene he really did run through the audience and then back up onto the stage and those pieces, there was also the video of him being released too. 00:35:05.855 --> 00:35:15.023 Again, it was the pullback at the end be like no, this was my lived experience. 00:35:15.023 --> 00:35:20.237 You know, even with the humor, my lived experience was this, and here's where you can see it, because you can see me walking out of the courtroom finally a free person. 00:35:20.237 --> 00:35:22.487 Um, and listener, I know you're worried. 00:35:22.487 --> 00:35:24.592 So he did get to donate his kidney to his

nephew. 00:35:24.592 --> 00:35:27.074 He's dead and they have a lifelong relationship. 00:35:27.074 --> 00:35:28.496 At this point, they're still the best of friends. 00:35:28.496 --> 00:35:29.077 He said so. 00:35:29.478 --> 00:35:39.507 Um, I really loved that too so, on a latter note, I gotta commend these guys for not only just gaining their freedom and that being enough, but that they all came together. 00:35:39.507 --> 00:35:44.632 I'm not sure how they all found each other, but I know that they all came together and they all said, hey, we have to spread the word. 00:35:44.632 --> 00:35:54.623 You know, we have to share these stories because they are very impactful, not only the people who have gone through it, but for the loved ones of people who have gone through it and the community as a whole, because I'm sure when this made the news, the community didn't feel safe. 00:35:54.623 --> 00:35:58.440 I'm sure the community knew like, hey, those birds are innocent and they're getting railroaded. 00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:04.442 So the fact that these guys came out and took it upon themselves as their mission to spread this word being free wasn't enough for them. 00:36:04.442 --> 00:36:06.009 I really got to commend that. 00:36:06.329 --> 00:36:08.217 Also, I would like to give a shout out to Al Cleveland. 00:36:08.217 --> 00:36:10.679 He's one of the guys who, uh, promotes this a lot. 00:36:10.679 --> 00:36:12.300 Uh, you guys can look him up on facebook. 00:36:12.300 --> 00:36:13.281 He's involved in a lot of stuff. 00:36:13.281 --> 00:36:16.103 Um, and lamont clark, who is actually the guy I was hooked up with. 00:36:16.103 --> 00:36:21.953 You know, we were pretty cool in there, so it's nice to see him up on stage and uh literally get their flowers, yeah, yeah. 00:36:21.953 --> 00:36:25.710 But also shout out to all these guys, man, the fact that they would go out there and share their own stories like this. 00:36:25.710 --> 00:36:27.333 It's amazing. 00:36:27.333 --> 00:36:32.701 I really uh encourage all you guys if you see this play going on in your area, like, please grab some tickets, have a night out, go see it. 00:36:32.701 --> 00:36:34.784 I'm pretty sure, um, you'll learn something. 00:36:34.784 --> 00:36:37.896 There's a lot in there that even I haven't gone through the system, uh didn't know. 00:36:37.896 --> 00:36:40.609 And check out their website, voices of injustice. 00:36:41.331 --> 00:36:46.472 You can also check them out on facebook and instagram was there anything else on charles's story we wanted to talk about before we transition to well? 00:36:47.034 --> 00:36:52.261 I think we're good, proceed that up uh, the third and final story was that? 00:36:52.261 --> 00:36:59.413 No, it wasn't the final story, because Lamont came up and gave some closing remarks and told a little bit of his story with him and his mom, so Ruel's story was the last one that was done theatrically. 00:36:59.413 --> 00:37:05.735 And so, in 2002, ruel

Saylor was wrongfully convicted of murder, kidnapping and assault in Cleveland, ohio, following the fatal shooting of Omar Clark. 00:37:05.735 --> 00:37:14.784 The case against Saylor was the shooter. 00:37:14.784 --> 00:37:16.996 Another witness, larry Braxton, also identified Saylor. 00:37:16.996 --> 00:37:24.153 So, despite Saylor maintaining his innocence and presenting an alibi that replaced him elsewhere at the time of the crime, he was convicted in 2003 and sentenced to 25 years to life. 00:37:24.576 --> 00:37:27.248 Years later, new evidence surfaced proving Saylor's innocence. 00:37:27.248 --> 00:37:34.643 Williams admitted his identification had been influenced by suggestion, and other witnesses, including Cordell Hubbard and Nicole Hubbard, provided sworn statements supporting Saylor's alibi. 00:37:34.643 --> 00:37:38.400 Anthony McKenzie and William Sizemore further corroborated that Saylor was not present at the crime scene. 00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:42.269 In 2018, after spending more than 15 years in prison, saylor's convictions were vacated and he was released. 00:37:42.269 --> 00:37:49.875 In 2023, he was awarded $652,000 in state compensation for his wrongful conviction, highlighting the flaws in eyewitness identification and the devastating impact of prosecutorial errors. 00:37:50.275 --> 00:37:54.677 Now this story, I think, is important because this is the story where he took the deal right. 00:37:54.677 --> 00:37:56.420 Yes, that's correct. 00:37:56.420 --> 00:38:00.842 So after, let me see, he did 15 years right. 00:38:00.842 --> 00:38:02.943 So I think he said I think it was like year 12 or 13. 00:38:02.943 --> 00:38:05.226 He said the prosecutor came to visit him in prison. 00:38:05.226 --> 00:38:11.094 He also injected a little bit of comedy because he said oh, they're coming for me and he gave all this stuff away. 00:38:11.094 --> 00:38:12.376 And you know they're coming down here themselves. 00:38:12.376 --> 00:38:13.279 They must be here to get me out. 00:38:13.279 --> 00:38:13.961 Gave all this stuff away. 00:38:13.961 --> 00:38:14.990 He said. 00:38:15.010 --> 00:38:19.442 He went into this conference room and the prosecutor flat out says we know you're innocent. 00:38:19.442 --> 00:38:22.978 At that point, what else is there to talk about, right, right? 00:38:22.978 --> 00:38:32.925 But they also said well, we know you lied in court for your friend and so if you sign this plea agreement saying you know, yeah, you lied for your friend in court, we'll call it a wash. 00:38:32.925 --> 00:38:35.306 You know you'll only do this time that you did. 00:38:35.306 --> 00:38:35.807 You can go home. 00:38:35.807 --> 00:38:39.440 And his lawyer is like this is really bad advice. 00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:44.679 As your lawyer, I will tell you this is a shit deal, but as a friend, I will tell you to take the deal and fight from outside. 00:38:44.679 --> 00:38:47.377 I thought who the hell said something like that. 00:38:47.377 --> 00:38:48.933 I wanted to stand up and scream at that moment. 00:38:48.933 --> 00:38:52.203 Yeah, that was the most horrible advice ever, but he signed the deal. 00:38:52.746 --> 00:38:54.672 You know I don't know that it was the most horrible advice ever. 00:38:54.672 --> 00:39:08.152 I'll push back because she had tried a lot of appeal processes and it was in the hands of like it was up to whoever was going to hear it or sign it, and they've been trying for 15 years to get an appeal heard and so this was a deal that gave immediate freedom or he could have not. 00:39:08.152 --> 00:39:12.840 Sondra and her continued her efforts that for 15 years had been fruitless, so I don't know that it was the worst advice ever. 00:39:13.021 --> 00:39:15.025 From my point of view, I want to tell you why I thought this was the worst ever. 00:39:15.025 --> 00:39:19.801 When you admit guilt, you lose all appeal process, all appeal power. 00:39:19.801 --> 00:39:24.539 You cannot appeal a guilty verdict, no matter if it was coerced, no matter if it was prosecution, misconduct or anything. 00:39:24.539 --> 00:39:25.040 You said you did it. 00:39:25.040 --> 00:39:26.242 Nobody made you say you did it. 00:39:26.242 --> 00:39:36.786 So by them saying we'll let you go only if you admit to this and accept the time you've done, as you know punishment for this, this uh deal that you're taking, you basically say, yeah, I can go home today. 00:39:36.786 --> 00:39:38.228 You'll never compensate me for this time I did. 00:39:38.228 --> 00:39:39.507 I'm still going to be a felon. 00:39:39.507 --> 00:39:42.674 I'm still going to be you know, like you're not going to go home a free man. 00:39:43.036 --> 00:39:58.010 You know you still might go home on supervision, you like I understand, I get it, I know the depth of that, but I think from ruel's perspective, like he shared on the stage, and from his lawyer's viewpoint, who was his friend at that point of over a decade and a half of working alongside each other, like she could see him mentally deteriorating, as we talked about earlier. 00:39:58.010 --> 00:40:06.118 He was in solitary confinement at the time of this visit from this prosecutor and was really struggling with his mental health and his wellness, knowing he should be at home. 00:40:06.118 --> 00:40:06.980 He kept his faith. 00:40:06.980 --> 00:40:08.340 That was one of his big through lines was his faith. 00:40:08.340 --> 00:40:13.445 But like I understand why she left it up to him for advice. 00:40:14.429 --> 00:40:15.492 I understand why she said what she said. 00:40:15.492 --> 00:40:23.134 It doesn't change the fact that it was horrible advice, because the same way he got railroaded here right, the same way they're trying to give him this deal to cover up their tracks and justify what they did to him. 00:40:23.134 --> 00:40:24.772 He goes home on supervision. 00:40:24.772 --> 00:40:27.632 By the time he did, it would be five years of mandatory post-release control.

00:40:27.632 --> 00:40:30.157 What's to stop them from violating his parole and putting him back in prison? 00:40:30.577 --> 00:40:33.984 Well, I don't know that there is any, but what's the likelihood that he wouldn't have gotten out at all? 00:40:33.984 --> 00:40:36.833 I mean, there's the component of— but if he did his whole time? 00:40:37.655 --> 00:40:40.643 and got out, he would still be able to fight for the injustice that he gone through. 00:40:40.643 --> 00:40:45.681 If he admitted that he was guilty and deserving of this punishment, he would have no basis, no grounds to stand on. 00:40:46.402 --> 00:40:56.309 I would have done what he did no-transcript. 00:40:56.690 --> 00:41:13.603 At that point I don't see and maybe I'm just living in this idealized world, but I don't see how they have any power at that point If you admit to me that you know, by some ethics or some kind of legal standards maybe they can't do anything directly about this. 00:41:13.603 --> 00:41:21.920 But who's to say that some newspaper doesn't get a hold of this story and find out that prosecution wrongfully convicted a person and then went to said person and said we know you're innocent but we're not releasing you. 00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:33.205 I'm sure they did not allow that to for people, other parties, that if you say, hey, this happened, for them to investigate that would 100% renew my vigor. 00:41:34.072 --> 00:41:39.836 I think that's a really well-made point, because I think you and I are sitting here talking about the advice, but in reality that's not the part of the problem. 00:41:39.836 --> 00:41:43.556 Prosecution was the problem and the injustice of the system is the complicated component here. 00:41:43.556 --> 00:41:51.259 So, regardless of the deal he took or didn't take, he shouldn't have been after we know you're innocent, right like that. 00:41:51.259 --> 00:41:51.438 Should. 00:41:51.438 --> 00:41:55.523 That should have been the end of the sentence, not the aftermath that followed, I guess. 00:41:55.683 --> 00:42:00.398 So but if you guys caught it, what I said was at year 12 or 13 the prosecutor came to him. 00:42:00.398 --> 00:42:05.268 Yeah, he took the deal, stayed in prison for another two years waiting to be released and they never came for him. 00:42:05.268 --> 00:42:13.740 Right, they took the signed deal and totally forgot about him and as he started beating on their door like hey, what's going on, they said I'm gonna take the deal back and just left him there. 00:42:13.740 --> 00:42:16.958 So basically they got him to give up his fight and just sit and wait. 00:42:16.958 --> 00:42:18.481 Now, who knows what that was for. 00:42:18.481 --> 00:42:19.996 I mean, it could have been a reelection season, who knows? 00:42:20.549 --> 00:42:24.277 But I mean the mental warfare that they just put on this guy. 00:42:24.277 --> 00:42:25.641 You know the one. 00:42:25.641 --> 00:42:27.023 Tell him hey, we know you're innocent. 00:42:27.023 --> 00:42:34.572 Like, oh, my, that started out. 00:42:34.572 --> 00:42:36.278 I would have cried right there my God, you know, you recognize that I'm innocent. 00:42:36.278 --> 00:42:36.800 What else could I ask for? 00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:37.382 Right, just then spring on me. 00:42:37.382 --> 00:42:42.049 This deal was like damn, that's a little defeating, but you still got hope right To take the deal. 00:42:42.049 --> 00:42:45.173 Like you had to go through a lot to convince yourself to take that deal and then still not go home. 00:42:45.173 --> 00:42:46.219 That was horrible. 00:42:46.219 --> 00:42:51.403 And we're talking about people who are are I mean, if you talk about us versus them mentality. 00:42:51.403 --> 00:43:01.815 From their point of view, they're pillars of society, you're the slime of the earth and we're upholding the law and justice and whatnot, and they're inflicting this upon people who they know are innocent. 00:43:01.815 --> 00:43:02.618 It's just cruel. 00:43:04.193 --> 00:43:08.097 Again, I can't speak for what his choice was, because I'm not him and didn't go through what he went through. 00:43:08.097 --> 00:43:15.643 But from the outside I would have looked at him and been like I trusted you guys that the legal system would not convict me because I'm an innocent person. 00:43:15.643 --> 00:43:19.007 And here I am, 13 years later and now you're telling me you're going to trust me again. 00:43:19.007 --> 00:43:23.621 To me it was so blatant of like why would you make the same mistake twice? 00:43:23.621 --> 00:43:25.089 But again, I didn't go through what he went through. 00:43:25.089 --> 00:43:29.775 So, to be in his mental state at that exact moment, I'm sure I might have made the same choice that you made. 00:43:29.775 --> 00:43:29.815 I. 00:43:29.815 --> 00:43:31.938 I might have made the same choice that you might very well could have made the same choice. 00:43:31.958 --> 00:43:34.299 This is like playing with a revolver and somebody's like, oh, it's empty. 00:43:34.299 --> 00:43:38.184 And then you mess around and shoot yourself in the foot and they're like, no, the next one's empty, don't worry about it. 00:43:38.184 --> 00:43:39.786 You're like, how are you going to get me this way? 00:43:39.786 --> 00:43:44.601 It's a trigger game, it's well, I guess it is what it is. 00:43:54.409 --> 00:43:58.123 Luckily, I renewed the fight and made it out, and I sound a lot like my own lawyer, but they made it out with enough life left to still enjoy Well, so I have two points to make. 00:43:58.123 --> 00:43:59.627 So first was Lamont Clark. 00:43:59.627 --> 00:44:06.134 I don't know if you wanted to share anything about him or any other than that you knew him, but Lamont offered some closing remarks, similarly sharing his own case. 00:44:06.134 --> 00:44:38.263 We talked about it a little bit earlier, about he needed to get out because his mom was dying, had a terminal illness, and so by the time he fought his fight so he

could go home for a little bit, he did get to see his mom and she was in a coma and he was able to talk to her and it wasn't very long that she passed away, but there were—well, munt's case is a little different and more complicated than the other individuals that were part of this play, but the thing that remains true is that he had to demonstrate this consistent resiliency, and that was the other point I was going to make was we talked a lot about this term resiliency and what it means and why it's trendy and all these things. 00:44:38.284 --> 00:44:50.619 So I want to give a quick shout out to a friend of the pod, jesse Schrader, my friend and confidant for a long time, but we used to do a lot of training around resiliency and the term and what we often shared with people was, yes, resiliency is important, but we can't high-five people that are drowning right. 00:44:50.619 --> 00:45:12.496 We have to recognize that praising people for their strength without acknowledging the thing that has had to make them strong doesn't fix anything, and so I think that, as an overall takeaway for me from this event, it was man, these people are amazing and it shouldn't have to be like this, and I hope that more people in the audience kind of grappled with that same little reality of these are people's lived experiences, and the system is flawed that makes it such um. 00:45:12.496 --> 00:45:13.338 So those are my closing thoughts. 00:45:13.338 --> 00:45:16.413 I know we're wrapping up, so I just wanted to get mine in there so that you all can say yours too. 00:45:16.755 --> 00:45:28.570 To follow up on what you just said, dj, I would just say that, from my viewpoint, resiliency should be a thing that we praise in individuals when the circumstances that they went through weren't something that could be prevented. 00:45:29.311 --> 00:45:38.192 But we too often ascribe resiliency to people that went through preventable circumstances, whether that be abuse, whether that be a wrongful conviction, whether that be stigmatization by society. 00:45:38.192 --> 00:45:43.413 These are all social constructs that are all things that we, as you know, as a society, could just like work to stop. 00:45:43.413 --> 00:45:46.871 You know someone going through a natural disaster, such as a hurricane or something. 00:45:46.871 --> 00:45:55.304 You know that's terrible, but that's not something that we can control, and so them being resilient in the face of that, that is something admirable, and I'm saying that being resilient in these cases, these other cases, isn't admirable. 00:45:55.304 --> 00:46:10.384 I'm just saying that it drives home BJ's point of the fact that they shouldn't have to have been resilient, and so it saddens me to have to give them that admiration for something that we put them through and I include myself in that Like we as a country, as a society, are responsible of society are responsible. 00:46:13.242 --> 00:46:13.766 I totally agree. 00:46:13.766 --> 00:46:17.194 And to piggyback off of that, we're talking about resiliency through something that if, given the opportunity, I would not go through. 00:46:17.194 --> 00:46:26.324 We're not talking about like, oh man, I'm Kobe Bryant, I was in the gym three times a day and I was so resilient to overcome this and be a whatever time NBA champion. 00:46:26.324 --> 00:46:27.529 We're not talking about that. 00:46:27.529 --> 00:46:32.775 We're talking about, no, I was plucked out of my life and forced to go through this, and now you're praising me for making it through. 00:46:32.775 --> 00:46:33.616 Yeah, I'm happy I made it through. 00:46:34.337 --> 00:46:37.340 But if, given the opportunity, like if you ask Kobe Bryant, hey, would you still go through this? 00:46:37.340 --> 00:46:37.922 Do you think it was worth it? 00:46:37.922 --> 00:46:39.963 He'd be like hell, yeah, I'm so glad I was resilient through that. 00:46:39.963 --> 00:46:42.145 But if you ask these guys, hey, would you do it again? 00:46:42.145 --> 00:46:47.956 They're like fuck, no. 00:46:47.956 --> 00:46:53.905 So Give them their praise and, you know, give them their flowers, thanks for coming home and sharing your story, but recognize that it's not something that they went through by choice. 00:46:53.905 --> 00:46:57.809 It's not something that they would probably choose to go through again and recognize their losses through all of this. 00:46:58.509 --> 00:47:01.192 I'd much rather live in a world where we didn't have to put on a play call the lynch among us. 00:47:01.192 --> 00:47:04.195 But I'm glad I saw it and I'm glad that hopefully it's going. 00:47:04.195 --> 00:47:08.159 It didn't happen and these people didn't go to prison wrongfully or that really almost anybody doesn't go to prison. 00:47:08.159 --> 00:47:09.422 But that's a different episode for the podcast. 00:47:15.630 --> 00:47:17.096 Thank you, jacob, for joining us to talk about this. 00:47:17.096 --> 00:47:18.496 Thank you for inviting us to attend it with you. 00:47:18.496 --> 00:47:19.650 I think it was really impactful. 00:47:19.650 --> 00:47:25.531 Through each of our respective lenses, we took different things away from it, and it was a really good way to spend time. 00:47:25.531 --> 00:47:43.681 Part of it Donate if you have capacity, whether that's time, whether that's monetary gifts, whether that's sharing it on social media, whatever way you can contribute to make sure that this is circulated in the way that it should be. 00:47:43.681 --> 00:47:45.103 And, yeah, thank you for listening. 00:47:45.103 --> 00:47:46.605 Right, we're going to close out with that. 00:47:47.788 --> 00:47:50.835 Like I said, these guys on Facebook and Instagram, as well as the Voices of Justice page. 00:47:50.835 --> 00:47:53.118 Just give it a look. 00:47:53.118 --> 00:48:06.250 I know personally, with us three here being co-parents, it was important to learn this, to see this and communicate it somehow to our children, because it may not impact us, but it could impact the next generation or somebody you know. 00:48:06.250 --> 00:48:09.174 So, like DJ said, please go to their page. 00:48:09.174 --> 00:48:10.715 Please support them however you can, and with that we're done. 00:48:10.715 --> 00:48:10.836 Peace. 00:48:10.836 --> 00:48:11.339 Please go to their page. 00:48:11.339 --> 00:48:12.730 Please support them however you can, and with that we're done. 00:48:12.730 --> 00:48:15.159 Peace. 00:48:15.159 --> 00:48:17.797 Applause for you guys. 00:48:17.797 --> 00:48:19.240 We're out of here.