النص الكامل لحلقة How Brands Optimize for AI Shopping Agents in 2026

00:03:30.949 ultimately you can have what you want 00:03:30.959 --> 00:03:32.949 but we want to make you aware of the 00:03:32.959 --> 00:03:35.509 fact that we tested it and if you want 00:03:35.519 --> 00:03:37.990 your round corners it costs you half a 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:40.309 second of page load speed and agent 00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:42.630 conversions reduced by 5%. % would you 00:03:42.640 --> 00:03:44.710 still like it and if you give them that 00:03:44.720 --> 00:03:47.110 level of information 00:03:47.120 --> 00:03:48.949 >> I would presume most executive will turn 00:03:48.959 --> 00:03:51.430 around and say no of course not 00:03:51.440 --> 00:03:54.149 >> but I feel that right now we're 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:56.630 designing to make it pretty 00:03:56.640 --> 00:03:58.869 >> rather than designing for functionality 00:03:58.879 --> 00:04:01.750 and we're not being serious about how we 00:04:01.760 --> 00:04:04.070 test this neither from a human user 00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:06.550 perspective nor running it through agent 00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:07.830 protocols 00:04:07.840 --> 00:04:10.550 >> and I mean the we all love those rounded 00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:12.869 corners I'm I'm guilty of that. But I 00:04:12.879 --> 00:04:14.149 hear you, right? Like it's additional 00:04:14.159 --> 00:04:16.150 code that you're putting stress on, 00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:17.830 especially at the speed of these agents, 00:04:17.840 --> 00:04:19.349 right? You go into chat GPT and you say, 00:04:19.359 --> 00:04:21.990 "Hey, shop for me for a black V-neck 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:23.830 t-shirt." I mean, it has to be fast, 00:04:23.840 --> 00:04:25.590 right? We're talking like milliseconds 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:27.670 and you're slowing. You have a website 00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:30.629 that loads takes 5 seconds to load. It's 00:04:30.639 --> 00:04:32.150 just going to skip it, right? It's like, 00:04:32.160 --> 00:04:33.909 I I don't have time to waste waiting for 00:04:33.919 --> 00:04:36.230 your page to render with all the pretty, 00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:37.909 you know, rounded corners of your 00:04:37.919 --> 00:04:41.110 images. And so can you tell us a little 00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:43.350 bit more about what were your some of 00:04:43.360 --> 00:04:45.350 the tests? Was there any of the tests 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:46.629 that was successful that you were 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:49.830 actually able to shop or order anything? 00:04:49.840 --> 00:04:51.189 >> Some of them did come through as 00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:53.670 successful, but it was a very low 00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:56.710 conversion rate. And that's concerning 00:04:56.720 --> 00:04:58.469 when you think that the agent is 00:04:58.479 --> 00:05:00.870 specifically tasked to do nothing but 00:05:00.880 --> 00:05:03.510 convert. One would expect across the 00:05:03.520 --> 00:05:05.430 birth of the internet that eventually it 00:05:05.440 --> 00:05:07.749 would have a 100% conversion rate. that 00:05:07.759 --> 00:05:10.550 wasn't the case. There were some tasks 00:05:10.560 --> 00:05:14.070 where it could not find a single website 00:05:14.080 --> 00:05:16.629 in order to actually be able to convert. 00:05:16.639 --> 00:05:18.550 >> Now, this testing was done late last 00:05:18.560 --> 00:05:20.390 year. So, we're a little bit more 00:05:20.400 --> 00:05:22.150 agentic friendly. There's a little bit 00:05:22.160 --> 00:05:24.230 more awareness and we are seeing new 00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:26.390 protocols coming through. So Google just 00:05:26.400 --> 00:05:29.189 announced that they're encouraging a new 00:05:29.199 --> 00:05:32.230 open standard called uh web MCP for 00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:34.469 example where you would build into the 00:05:34.479 --> 00:05:37.270 headers of your your website these APIs 00:05:37.280 --> 00:05:39.749 which communicate what the website will 00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:42.150 do. So if you're a travel website you 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:45.189 would say on this page you can book 00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:48.310 these hotels at these rates with these 00:05:48.320 --> 00:05:50.469 packages. And so that's going to help 00:05:50.479 --> 00:05:53.510 that communication to the agentic web. 00:05:53.520 --> 00:05:55.830 But with anything like we've had schema 00:05:55.840 --> 00:05:57.830 for over a decade and we still have 00:05:57.840 --> 00:06:00.230 websites that don't have it adopted. So 00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:03.110 it's definitely going to be a case of 00:06:03.120 --> 00:06:05.510 are you on top of this? Are you on that 00:06:05.520 --> 00:06:09.029 cutting edge of logical implementations 00:06:09.039 --> 00:06:11.990 not jumping on every single bandwagon 00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:15.029 and how are you then going to benefit 00:06:15.039 --> 00:06:16.950 from that as a brand and increase your 00:06:16.960 --> 00:06:19.110 market share? You'll be surprised how 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:20.790 many websites we ran into, you know, 00:06:20.800 --> 00:06:23.110 enterprise level with no schema at, you 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:24.550 know, not even homepage, but 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:26.469 specifically local pages that don't have 00:06:26.479 --> 00:06:28.469 any schema. And we just spent a whole 00:06:28.479 --> 00:06:29.830 episode, the previous episode, if you 00:06:29.840 --> 00:06:31.830 didn't watch it, you go, you know, go 00:06:31.840 --> 00:06:33.270 into the YouTube channel, but we just 00:06:33.280 --> 00:06:35.350 spent an episode talking about schema. 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:36.950 So, it's the same thing as design, 00:06:36.960 --> 00:06:38.070 right? you would think that it's 00:06:38.080 --> 00:06:40.390 something that is well adopted and and 00:06:40.400 --> 00:06:42.469 this sounds like a really cool cool 00:06:42.479 --> 00:06:43.909 concept but I'm sure it's going to take 00:06:43.919 --> 00:06:46.230 some time to even get adoption and sell 00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:48.230 the idea to executives

right one thing 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:50.950 that I wanted to talk about was the 00:06:50.960 --> 00:06:52.790 obviously I think it was like two years 00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:54.629 ago we started talking about hey can you 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:56.629 imagine one day you ask Chad GPT for 00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:58.790 recommendations for local business and 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:01.510 we're there now so now it's like can you 00:07:01.520 --> 00:07:04.150 imagine you know somebody that you know 00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:07.510 an agent whatever Chad GPT does all your 00:07:07.520 --> 00:07:09.029 shopping for you, like orders your 00:07:09.039 --> 00:07:11.270 groceries and and acts like an actual 00:07:11.280 --> 00:07:13.029 half of a human, right? Like a like an 00:07:13.039 --> 00:07:15.430 actual assistant could order things. But 00:07:15.440 --> 00:07:16.790 then the first thing that comes to mind 00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:17.990 is like, what do you think is going to 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:20.070 happen to brand loyalty if it's an agent 00:07:20.080 --> 00:07:22.390 that is just chasing prices, right? It's 00:07:22.400 --> 00:07:24.150 like, oh, I want to save my users. I'm 00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:26.390 just going to go to random stores. How 00:07:26.400 --> 00:07:27.990 do you think that that's going to affect 00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:29.749 brand loyalty? 00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:31.430 >> I don't think it's going to affect brand 00:07:31.440 --> 00:07:32.550 loyalty. 00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:35.510 >> Okay. significantly because unless 00:07:35.520 --> 00:07:38.230 you've told your agent either through 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:39.830 explicit prompts or through your 00:07:39.840 --> 00:07:41.990 previous purchasing behavior that you 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:44.150 are extremely price conscious, 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:46.070 >> it's not going to follow those patterns. 00:07:46.080 --> 00:07:48.469 It's going to follow the patterns of 00:07:48.479 --> 00:07:50.870 brand loyalty that either it's seen in 00:07:50.880 --> 00:07:53.749 your behavior or it's seen on the mass 00:07:53.759 --> 00:07:56.869 buying behavior. Now the outcome of that 00:07:56.879 --> 00:08:00.710 is that if a user is new to a category, 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:04.629 it's going to follow the existing market 00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:06.150 patterns. 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:08.390 So what we're looking at is a 00:08:08.400 --> 00:08:11.830 re-emphasis of market leaders. And so if 00:08:11.840 --> 00:08:14.629 you are in position one in the market, 00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:16.710 >> you're in a very happy position right 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:19.189 now unless you're not taking care of 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:21.510 your aentic experiences 00:08:21.520 --> 00:08:25.510 because all of the corpus, all of the 00:08:25.520 --> 00:08:27.510 the visibility, 00:08:27.520 --> 00:08:29.589 everything that this agent has access 00:08:29.599 --> 00:08:31.589 to, unless it's got individual user 00:08:31.599 --> 00:08:33.750 preference or prompts otherwise, is 00:08:33.760 --> 00:08:35.829 saying to go and purchase from you and 00:08:35.839 --> 00:08:37.190 that will become a self-fulfilling 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:40.389 prophecy unless you get in the way. If 00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:42.230 you're not the market leader, I would 00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:44.870 see a Gentic as an excellent opportunity 00:08:44.880 --> 00:08:47.750 to become that because it doesn't matter 00:08:47.760 --> 00:08:51.190 what is the offline reality because an 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:53.590 agent can't see that. What matters is 00:08:53.600 --> 00:08:56.949 the digital reality that they work in. 00:08:56.959 --> 00:08:59.910 And so if you can start to influence 00:08:59.920 --> 00:09:02.870 that digital reality through citation 00:09:02.880 --> 00:09:05.430 targeting through understanding of 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:07.829 preferences through these APIs that the 00:09:07.839 --> 00:09:09.990 agents are utilizing which is different 00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:11.750 to SER rankings that's got different 00:09:11.760 --> 00:09:15.990 algorithms on top um you can start to 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:19.829 position yourself as the market leader 00:09:19.839 --> 00:09:23.350 even if you're not in reality and that's 00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:25.590 going to become a really interesting 00:09:25.600 --> 00:09:27.509 competitive advantage. and the skill of 00:09:27.519 --> 00:09:29.269 digital marketing. 00:09:29.279 --> 00:09:31.350 >> Yeah. And I I I would like to ask you 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:33.190 what would be your, you know, step one, 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:35.750 two, three to become that market leader 00:09:35.760 --> 00:09:37.670 if it was a a brand that's up and 00:09:37.680 --> 00:09:38.790 coming. You know, they're competing 00:09:38.800 --> 00:09:40.630 against the big guys. Where would you 00:09:40.640 --> 00:09:42.070 start? Like, you know, I know you do 00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:44.310 consulting. So, if this was your client, 00:09:44.320 --> 00:09:45.430 where would you start? What would you 00:09:45.440 --> 00:09:46.710 say? 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:49.350 >> The first place that I start is setting 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:51.590 your measurements. because if you don't 00:09:51.600 --> 00:09:54.070 have a metric to be able to measure 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:56.310 against you're just throwing things away 00:09:56.320 --> 00:09:59.030 in the wind. Uh so I like to use share 00:09:59.040 --> 00:10:01.750 of search as that and there's many many 00:10:01.760 --> 00:10:04.389 tracking tools that you can use. Share 00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:06.310 search for me combines traditional 00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:09.350 search and AI search. I would never look 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:12.310 at AI search alone or any tracking tools 00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:14.630 that are just like here's just your chat 00:10:14.640 --> 00:10:18.389 GPT visibility because a lot of AI 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:21.350

agents will be run by Google as well 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:23.670 through Gemini. We've got most of it 00:10:23.680 --> 00:10:25.750 coming through the Chrome browser. This 00:10:25.760 --> 00:10:28.389 is not a chat GPT question. This is a 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:30.150 wider internet question and you need to 00:10:30.160 --> 00:10:32.389 be in a position where you're monitoring 00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:35.110 multiple surfaces and understanding your 00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:37.990 share of voice across those entireties 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:40.150 of the different corpuses. 00:10:40.160 --> 00:10:42.949 Once I establish share of search and 00:10:42.959 --> 00:10:44.710 then through that process you're going 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:46.710 to be understanding what are the 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:48.710 category entry points like what are my 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:53.110 key topics that I need to be present on. 00:10:53.120 --> 00:10:55.990 I would be understanding who's currently 00:10:56.000 --> 00:10:58.550 dominating that conversation. I'll be 00:10:58.560 --> 00:11:00.470 looking at who's getting most of the 00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:02.150 citations, who's getting most of the 00:11:02.160 --> 00:11:03.910 visibility in traditional search 00:11:03.920 --> 00:11:05.910 results, who's being pulled as number 00:11:05.920 --> 00:11:09.430 one when the agents query the APIs. 00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:12.150 And then you can start doing your 00:11:12.160 --> 00:11:14.710 traditional digital marketing tactics to 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:16.790 target those placements. You need to 00:11:16.800 --> 00:11:18.949 increase your digital PR. You need to 00:11:18.959 --> 00:11:21.190 make sure you're very clear on your core 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:23.350 value propositions. You need to make 00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:24.870 sure that they're lived through your 00:11:24.880 --> 00:11:27.750 customer reviews and and managing any 00:11:27.760 --> 00:11:30.389 negative reviews because what a lot of 00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:33.350 these agents are looking for is balance. 00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:35.190 They'll look for positives and look for 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:36.389 negatives. 00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:39.350 >> Same with citations. You'll see that 00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:41.430 either Google or Chetchup BT if you ask 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:44.310 about a specific brand for its its is it 00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:46.710 good it tries to present both sides of 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:48.630 the story. You want to ensure that 00:11:48.640 --> 00:11:51.269 you're managing both of those sides. And 00:11:51.279 --> 00:11:53.110 then it's just increasing that share of 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:55.110 voice through that either citation 00:11:55.120 --> 00:11:57.670 targeting or placement targeting no 00:11:57.680 --> 00:11:59.829 matter the surface. And that a lot of 00:11:59.839 --> 00:12:01.670 the time brings us into the social 00:12:01.680 --> 00:12:04.069 sphere as well as your traditional 00:12:04.079 --> 00:12:06.629 website sphere because it's more than 00:12:06.639 --> 00:12:08.629 just the Google index or the Bing index. 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:11.509 Now we've got so many different indexes 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:13.829 also from Tik Tok and Instagram or all 00:12:13.839 --> 00:12:16.389 of Meta uh that we need to be factoring 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:17.430 in. 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:20.629 It it really just geo I I see it you 00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:21.670 know there's a couple of things that I 00:12:21.680 --> 00:12:23.990 want to say but I see it as the way that 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:25.990 it brought the whole internet together 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:27.910 right where is no longer like social 00:12:27.920 --> 00:12:29.990 media by itself and then the manager 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:31.350 that's posting on Google business 00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:32.550 profile and they don't talk to each 00:12:32.560 --> 00:12:34.710 other and everybody's running around 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:37.910 >> it it there needs to be that GEO role 00:12:37.920 --> 00:12:39.990 that controls everything right and and 00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:42.389 you know also known as LPO trying to 00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:44.230 control all these different things 00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:46.470 because GEO is like you said it's not 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:48.949 just the one agent or even not just the 00:12:48.959 --> 00:12:52.310 AI tools. Uh, which is kind of why also 00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:54.629 brings me back to are you calling it AI 00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:56.629 SEO or are you calling it GEO? What's 00:12:56.639 --> 00:12:59.430 the latest in the on the street on this? 00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:03.269 Because it's it's such a contradictory 00:13:03.279 --> 00:13:05.350 term, right? Because I mean, it's 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:07.190 obvious to call it AI SEO, but at the 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:09.269 same time, what if later there's a new 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:11.190 tool, a new the new tactic, a new 00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:13.030 platform, right? So, how are you how are 00:13:13.040 --> 00:13:14.230 you calling it when when you're 00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:16.389 referring to this in keynotes and and 00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:17.750 interviews? 00:13:17.760 --> 00:13:21.990 >> I call it AI SEO. Um, I don't like the 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:25.350 term GEO because we're not optimizing 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:27.750 for generative engines when we're 00:13:27.760 --> 00:13:29.350 talking about agents. Those are 00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:31.590 completely different technologies. That 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:34.310 space does have AI in common. And I 00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:36.550 think it's important to understand that 00:13:36.560 --> 00:13:39.829 this is not a new discipline. This is an 00:13:39.839 --> 00:13:42.629 expansion of what we were already doing 00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:45.190 under the terminology of SEO, which I 00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:46.949 understand is also not search

engine 00:13:46.959 --> 00:13:49.509 optimization anymore, but the term's 00:13:49.519 --> 00:13:51.190 kind of grown beyond that to include 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:53.910 many other surfaces as well. So my my 00:13:53.920 --> 00:13:56.550 personal preference is calling it AI SEO 00:13:56.560 --> 00:13:58.150 understanding. That's an expansion of 00:13:58.160 --> 00:14:00.230 what we're already doing, which is 00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:02.550 purely just an expansion of of digital 00:14:02.560 --> 00:14:04.629 marketing, which was always tied back to 00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:06.550 branding in the first place. I don't get 00:14:06.560 --> 00:14:09.269 too lost in the naming like arose by any 00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:10.310 other name. 00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:11.670 >> Keep it simple. 00:14:11.680 --> 00:14:12.790 >> Yeah. 00:14:12.800 --> 00:14:15.189 >> And you you mentioned briefly metrics 00:14:15.199 --> 00:14:17.030 which brings me to Google Analytics. I 00:14:17.040 --> 00:14:20.389 know you wrote about G4. Um very 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:22.310 difficult right now challenging is 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:25.350 messy. So is there any tips or tricks 00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:28.389 that you have on how are you tracking 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:30.710 you know success but also momentum right 00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:33.750 because in SEO usually rankings could 00:14:33.760 --> 00:14:35.990 help us get a sense of impressions and 00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:37.990 then impressions will get us clicks and 00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:39.269 then from there we're going to optimize 00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:41.030 conversions but in this case it's a 00:14:41.040 --> 00:14:42.710 whole different ballpark right it's like 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:44.069 there's no impressions there's no 00:14:44.079 --> 00:14:46.310 metrics I can't even they can convert 00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:48.470 without visiting your website the zero 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:51.110 clicks is a whole different animal what 00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:52.629 is what is your take like what are you 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:54.870 contining to track momentum and and 00:14:54.880 --> 00:14:56.550 success. 00:14:56.560 --> 00:14:58.310 >> So for me, there's there's two points 00:14:58.320 --> 00:14:59.829 that matter. Presuming you're a 00:14:59.839 --> 00:15:02.949 for-profit business, that's going to be 00:15:02.959 --> 00:15:04.949 like share of voice, whether that's 00:15:04.959 --> 00:15:06.629 share of search, if you're optimizing 00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:08.949 for search, share of voice on social 00:15:08.959 --> 00:15:11.350 platforms. It's essentially share of 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:14.550 whatever surface you're trying to to 00:15:14.560 --> 00:15:17.430 dominate. What I like about that is it 00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:19.990 includes competitive context in a way 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:22.790 that Google Search Console, Bing Web 00:15:22.800 --> 00:15:26.150 Master Tools, G4, they have no 00:15:26.160 --> 00:15:29.990 competitive context. So if if in your 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:32.150 Google Search Console you see clicks go 00:15:32.160 --> 00:15:34.710 up 5%. You might be thinking you're 00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:37.670 doing a fantastic job, but then if your 00:15:37.680 --> 00:15:40.310 CMO has the context that the entire 00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:43.350 market has grown 20%. and you've only 00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:46.389 grown 5%. That CMO is really upset with 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:49.189 you. And so having that competitive 00:15:49.199 --> 00:15:51.829 context is very important. You need to 00:15:51.839 --> 00:15:54.550 though tie that into real business 00:15:54.560 --> 00:15:57.189 metrics because I can be talked about a 00:15:57.199 --> 00:15:59.990 lot, but that doesn't necessarily 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:03.269 translate to more revenue in all cases. 00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:05.430 So essentially, I'm looking at that very 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:07.670 top of the funnel. What's going on with 00:16:07.680 --> 00:16:10.470 the share of voice? I'm looking at the 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:12.230 bottom of the funnel. what's happening 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:14.550 with my market share which I would 00:16:14.560 --> 00:16:17.269 define as like your your total sales 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:20.470 total revenue that you're making and 00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:23.670 then have those two correlate together 00:16:23.680 --> 00:16:26.550 is is the goal. When I get more share of 00:16:26.560 --> 00:16:30.150 search then not immediately but a few 00:16:30.160 --> 00:16:32.470 months down the line I should see an 00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:35.269 increase in my revenues. And if that's 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:38.629 not the case, then I'm doing the wrong 00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:40.949 thing in terms of managing that 00:16:40.959 --> 00:16:42.310 conversation. 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:43.590 >> Yeah, there's something broken 00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:45.509 somewhere. There was a a recent 00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:47.430 conversation I had with a restaurant, 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:49.269 small restaurant chain down here in 00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:53.430 Texas, and again, difficult to prove how 00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:55.670 AI SEO and how they were being 00:16:55.680 --> 00:16:57.030 recommended, but it's hard to prove it 00:16:57.040 --> 00:16:59.189 on a dashboard, on a report. And they 00:16:59.199 --> 00:17:00.710 started noticing that people were 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:02.790 walking into the restaurant well 00:17:02.800 --> 00:17:04.549 educated on the menu. So they started 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:07.110 ordering the pricier, the fancier 00:17:07.120 --> 00:17:09.270 dishes. So more of the not the 00:17:09.280 --> 00:17:11.510 traditional salad, but the signature, 00:17:11.520 --> 00:17:13.510 right? Like what what they came up with 00:17:13.520 --> 00:17:15.750 and they started they walked in instead 00:17:15.760 --> 00:17:17.829 of expecting to just have a beer, they 00:17:17.839 -->

00:17:19.909 knew there was a full cocktail bar, so 00:17:19.919 --> 00:17:22.549 they were expecting cocktails. And once 00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:24.309 they looked at the revenue, they saw 00:17:24.319 --> 00:17:26.710 that most average tickets were up by 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:28.950 40%. And it's like, well, there you go, 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:30.470 right? It's like, this is hard. like you 00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:32.150 have to look everywhere because you 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:34.150 don't know and every industry is 00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:36.390 different too. I mean if you know if if 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:38.710 it's food I don't know how do you 00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:40.630 personally pick a restaurant? Are you 00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:43.909 actually using AI agents for yourself? 00:17:43.919 --> 00:17:46.150 >> I don't use AI agents for my 00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:47.750 restaurants. I'm still very traditional. 00:17:47.760 --> 00:17:51.750 I use Google Maps. Um I use I use AI 00:17:51.760 --> 00:17:53.590 agents for more complex purchases. For 00:17:53.600 --> 00:17:56.870 me, the the effort of sending an agent 00:17:56.880 --> 00:17:59.669 for for restaurants would be too high 00:17:59.679 --> 00:18:02.070 when it's easier for me to use the 00:18:02.080 --> 00:18:03.590 traditional ones cuz they give me a 00:18:03.600 --> 00:18:06.549 quick, good, easily filterable result. 00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:08.230 >> If it's something that's a more complex 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:11.350 purchase where I would traditionally 00:18:11.360 --> 00:18:13.909 have gone on to multiple websites and 00:18:13.919 --> 00:18:16.710 done half an hour of browsing, that's 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:18.390 where I now will have the agent do that 00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:20.070 browsing on my behalf and bring me back 00:18:20.080 --> 00:18:21.830 two or three options. 00:18:21.840 --> 00:18:23.750 >> Yeah. And that's that's the cool part. 00:18:23.760 --> 00:18:25.750 Some industries require, you know, for 00:18:25.760 --> 00:18:28.150 you to go to their website and still 00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:29.510 check them out. That's how you can track 00:18:29.520 --> 00:18:31.590 them. But like spec specifically 00:18:31.600 --> 00:18:33.750 restaurants or or physical locations, 00:18:33.760 --> 00:18:35.270 they they don't need to go to the 00:18:35.280 --> 00:18:36.549 website. They can just they have the 00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:38.310 address. They can click on the map and 00:18:38.320 --> 00:18:40.549 go straight, right? And so it's just 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:42.230 this it's fascinating, but I think 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:43.830 there's a lot of conversations there on 00:18:43.840 --> 00:18:45.669 like how are we eventually going to 00:18:45.679 --> 00:18:48.549 attribute this, right? And and track it. 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:51.270 Um I don't know what's your take on this 00:18:51.280 --> 00:18:52.390 but like 00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:54.070 >> we're talking about look at everything 00:18:54.080 --> 00:18:56.310 but most companies have everything 00:18:56.320 --> 00:18:58.310 separate right like CRM does one thing 00:18:58.320 --> 00:19:01.029 they have another thing for for revenue 00:19:01.039 --> 00:19:03.190 and so like how do they do that right do 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:05.350 you see a day that it is going to be 00:19:05.360 --> 00:19:07.029 essential to put every all the systems 00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:10.549 together so they can actually look at it 00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:13.830 >> no because the systems aren't compatible 00:19:13.840 --> 00:19:15.669 they're completely different metrics 00:19:15.679 --> 00:19:17.430 like even if you're just trying to 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:19.190 standardize across your social 00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:21.430 platforms. How they measure reach and 00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:24.230 impressions and clicks is fundamentally 00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:26.549 different. You can't put an apple in a 00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:28.390 bucket with an orange and then call it a 00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:30.870 banana. Like that's not how these things 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:32.070 work. 00:19:32.080 --> 00:19:35.270 >> I think we as digital marketers need to 00:19:35.280 --> 00:19:39.590 recognize that we've been blinded by 00:19:39.600 --> 00:19:42.390 metrics at the expense of forgetting 00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:43.669 KPIs. 00:19:43.679 --> 00:19:46.470 >> Yeah. And we've been communicating 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:49.590 metrics to our executive teams that are 00:19:49.600 --> 00:19:53.029 just vanity metrics. I Why do you care 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:55.190 about impressions in Google Search 00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:57.510 Console? Why do you care about sessions 00:19:57.520 --> 00:20:00.470 in G4? You need to understand that 00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:03.270 there's things that are directionally 00:20:03.280 --> 00:20:05.590 valuable for market share and those 00:20:05.600 --> 00:20:08.230 things are not impressions and sessions. 00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:09.029 Mhm. 00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:12.070 >> And so I think we will see a I hope we 00:20:12.080 --> 00:20:17.110 will see a return to important KPIs of 00:20:17.120 --> 00:20:19.029 marketing that the digital sphere has 00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:22.070 forgotten for a long time. These are 00:20:22.080 --> 00:20:24.870 share aer voice. These are things that 00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:27.590 we have a lot of experience tracking 00:20:27.600 --> 00:20:31.029 this untrackable path but knowing that 00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:33.430 there's value in it from all of the 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:35.350 above the line advertising, all of the 00:20:35.360 --> 00:20:37.510 Madmen era. They didn't have Google 00:20:37.520 --> 00:20:39.909 Analytics 4, yet they knew if their 00:20:39.919 --> 00:20:41.750 campaign worked or not. 00:20:41.760 --> 00:20:42.630 >> Yeah. 00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:45.350 >> And a lot of the digital sphere, we 00:20:45.360 --> 00:20:47.669 complain, well, why does

why do they 00:20:47.679 --> 00:20:49.110 still invest so much money in 00:20:49.120 --> 00:20:50.950 television? Why do they still invest so 00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:53.990 much money in local newspaper ads? They 00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:56.149 invested because it works. 00:20:56.159 --> 00:20:56.789 >> Yeah. 00:20:56.799 --> 00:20:59.430 >> And it's proven to work time and time 00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:01.270 again for decades and decades. And 00:21:01.280 --> 00:21:03.909 that's not going to change. the digital 00:21:03.919 --> 00:21:08.549 guys, we got lost in in the swamp of 00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:11.590 metrics that we had available and we 00:21:11.600 --> 00:21:13.430 need to come out of that and begin 00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:15.510 focusing on true north stars that 00:21:15.520 --> 00:21:17.430 actually matter. 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:19.830 >> So I want to ask you if you have any 00:21:19.840 --> 00:21:21.990 actionable insights, what would you tell 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:24.310 a CMO to focus on when we're talking 00:21:24.320 --> 00:21:26.870 about AI SEO and all these things for 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:28.950 the next 12 months? What should be 00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:31.510 priority number one for them? 00:21:31.520 --> 00:21:34.149 Priority number one is ensuring that 00:21:34.159 --> 00:21:36.630 there is a clear correlation between the 00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:39.909 way you have set up your AI search 00:21:39.919 --> 00:21:43.590 tracking and your share of market 00:21:43.600 --> 00:21:45.909 because a lot of the time the people who 00:21:45.919 --> 00:21:48.549 have set up the AI search tracking have 00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:50.789 gone into their like Google search 00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:53.270 console or Bing web master tools looked 00:21:53.280 --> 00:21:56.070 at what queries that they're ranking for 00:21:56.080 --> 00:21:58.950 put those queries into AI and now they 00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:02.870 have a 40% share in AOI search. I'm 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:05.830 like, you've just 00:22:05.840 --> 00:22:08.070 >> set up a focus group where you've walked 00:22:08.080 --> 00:22:10.870 out to your customer base, got your best 00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:13.029 customers, put them in a room, and then 00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:15.350 ask them, "Do you like our product?" Of 00:22:15.360 --> 00:22:16.870 course, the answer is yes. You've 00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:19.270 introduced so much bias into that 00:22:19.280 --> 00:22:22.149 system. And if you do that, what you're 00:22:22.159 --> 00:22:24.789 not going to see is any correlation 00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:28.149 whatsoever between your share of search 00:22:28.159 --> 00:22:30.710 in AI platforms and the market share 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:33.750 that you are enjoying as a brand. What 00:22:33.760 --> 00:22:36.230 you need to do is restructure that and 00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:38.950 make sure it's as unbiased as possible. 00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:41.270 So have those hard conversations about 00:22:41.280 --> 00:22:43.830 who are actually our competitors. uh 00:22:43.840 --> 00:22:45.750 what is actually our category entry 00:22:45.760 --> 00:22:49.430 points and how does that translate into 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:51.830 grounding queries? 00:22:51.840 --> 00:22:54.950 Put those grounding queries at a decent 00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:58.390 scale into an AI tracker. Track that 00:22:58.400 --> 00:23:00.630 across all of the different meaningful 00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:03.350 for your business AI platforms including 00:23:03.360 --> 00:23:05.669 AI mode and AI overviews because those 00:23:05.679 --> 00:23:07.350 are still the two big hitters 00:23:07.360 --> 00:23:10.390 significantly more than chat GPT despite 00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:13.669 all of the hype. and then have that 00:23:13.679 --> 00:23:16.390 honest conversation about where are we 00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:19.029 and if you don't see a correlation with 00:23:19.039 --> 00:23:21.750 that AI share of voice and your market 00:23:21.760 --> 00:23:23.750 share with AI share of voice being a 00:23:23.760 --> 00:23:25.830 leading indicator 00:23:25.840 --> 00:23:27.430 then you've still got the tracking 00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:30.390 incorrect when you see that correlation 00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:32.870 now you can start optimizing because now 00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:35.990 you have a metric you know if I increase 00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:39.990 this in 3 months time 6 months time 00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:41.430 whatever the lag is because there's 00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:43.270 always a lag lag between marketing and 00:23:43.280 --> 00:23:45.590 impact. Whatever that lag is, I'm going 00:23:45.600 --> 00:23:47.190 to see that come through in my market 00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:48.549 share. 00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:49.830 >> And it goes back to what you said 00:23:49.840 --> 00:23:51.750 earlier is like if you don't set 00:23:51.760 --> 00:23:54.149 testing, you're going to go in and start 00:23:54.159 --> 00:23:55.830 creating content or editing or, you 00:23:55.840 --> 00:23:58.070 know, publishing things and you're just 00:23:58.080 --> 00:23:59.750 not going to be able to catch, did it 00:23:59.760 --> 00:24:01.830 work? Did it not work? Right? So, it can 00:24:01.840 --> 00:24:03.990 go south very, very quickly. But Jess, I 00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:05.350 really want to thank you for your time 00:24:05.360 --> 00:24:07.110 for joining me on this episode. for 00:24:07.120 --> 00:24:08.789 anybody that is watching and want to 00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:10.630 learn or follow your work, learn more 00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:12.149 about what you're working on, how can 00:24:12.159 --> 00:24:14.310 people get a hold of you, contact you, 00:24:14.320 --> 00:24:16.950 or even just follow your your articles. 00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:20.230 >> Yeah. So, I publish my own newsletter. 00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:23.190 It's called SEO Brief on Substack. 00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:25.510 That's where I'll go into more of my 00:24:25.520 --> 00:24:28.630 like deep thinking. Uh, if you want more 00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:30.950 bite-sized snackable stuff, I publish on 00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:33.430 LinkedIn every week in general if I'm 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:35.830 not too busy. Um, with whatever I'm 00:24:35.840 --> 00:24:37.750 thinking of of that week. So, it's 00:24:37.760 --> 00:24:39.830 generally tied into whatever work I'm 00:24:39.840 --> 00:24:42.549 doing at the time. Um, and then I'm 00:24:42.559 --> 00:24:45.909 going to start with videos soon 00:24:45.919 --> 00:24:48.870 being at some point this year. So, I'll 00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:50.470 announce that on LinkedIn when I finally 00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:51.669 get to it. 00:24:51.679 --> 00:24:53.269 >> That's awesome. I'll keep an eye out for 00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:55.590 it. Again, thank you so much for joining 00:24:55.600 --> 00:24:57.510 us today and thank you everybody for 00:24:57.520 --> 00:24:59.269 watching. We'll see you on the next 00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:02.840 episode. Bye.