النص الكامل لحلقة Finding Purpose Through Change: Pascale Brady on Adlerian Leadership

starting to to to to emerge and to come out and and how do how do we navigate this path? How do we go down it? W how do we realize that we're in this mode where a change is required? 'Cause often we know something as leaders it's not working, something's wrong. how do they find you like that first step that I need to go and get some support? When do you start to notice for leaders? Yeah. So I think people that make that phone call, whether it's me, you or or or therapist or any coach, is is when you've really reached that tipping point. The when the when the What is it in English? The thing that breaks the h the horse's back. You you're getting to that one additional thing where you feel like I can't take this anymore. I am choking, I can't breathe. A lot of people talk about burnout, just exhaustion, not wanting to get out of bed in the morning anymore, having not sleeping at night, having anxiety when you've never had anxiety in your life, starting biting your nails, just being really crabby all the time with everyone around you, again not being able to be creative anymore. And just not feeling the purpose anymore. Just why wondering what what the heck you're doing here? What why am I here? What am I doing here? What is wrong? Right. So you get to that existential point almost of what is happening? Almost like an awakening. So I think that's where that's when most people feel it. And that is very different than being confronted with real challenges at work that are Solvable, but that haven't brought you to the breaking point. there are things that you've just never faced before, or you've just been promoted and you're being called to doing things that you've never done before. So you're stretched. But this is a stretch upward. It's stressful, it's challenging, it's draining, it's scary, it's all of these things, but there's still some motivation and excitement. Because you're being called forth. The other one doesn't feel like that anymore. It feels like you're drowning, right? You're drowning or you're exploding one one or the other. But you are you just feel you can't take it anymore. So that's that point where people say, This is not right anymore. I've got to do something about this. And this is usually what leads to the call. Absolutely. And I been in a situation where something is off, and often we stay in a position longer than we need to, and it creates Chaos for not just ourselves, but our teams as well. So knowing when to get that support and proactively get out of that mode because it's very discouraging for self and others when this is happening. So we're looking at transitions. And when we look at transition, there are also identity transitions that we are now going through. Can you speak a little bit about that? Yeah. So a lot of people think about When they think about transition, they think about I'm switching from the role of I was a salesperson and now I've become a sales manager, right? So the transition is between just sales

representative and manager. When in fact or or any transition, whether it's a sideway transition, an upwards transition or whatever, or to to another company, another industry. But every when we talk about that, usually we think about the actual role change. I've I've started a new role. And Now of course this matters and it's it's of of essence, but what really matters is who am I in this transition? Who do I be? Who do I become? What do I bring? what do I leave behind? what is my asset that I bring forth? How do I change internally so that I match the situation, the needs of the situation as the transition occurs? How do I transform myself internally so that I can face whatever is coming at me with this transition and this change? Is that does does that make sense? Absolutely. Absolutely. That whole what am I next? Right. So we've gone through being single and you're getting married. That's a transition, right? Mm adapting to this new marriage and then you have children. And similar to work, how does one deal with this identity change and the emotions that surround us? Guess what I'm gonna say? You pause, get a coach. You breathe. Yes, that too. You pause, you breathe, you acknowledge, you respect, you have compassion. but the first step always is this awareness. I actually wrote a newsletter. I'm from Europe and had to go to Europe and I helped my stepdad transition from he had cancer and he died. And I was gone for a few weeks and I was there a number of months. And during that time I I realized but not During it, I re realized after it, because you're in the thick of it, especially when something so drastic happens. I realized afterwards I had switched roles. I was not the role that the roles that I had here, which was I w I was a housewife and a mother and a CEO and business owner and a coach to my clients and et cetera, volunteer in the community, and now I was a caregiver and the daughter of my mother and my stepdad and a helper. And I it was totally different roles while I was still trying to keep alifelike to my other roles. And it was very discombobile. It was very a and and so to answer your question, how do you do it? You do it with with as much awareness as you can, which is not again very easy, always easy in in very drastic changes and transitions. But you you go through the awareness step and then you just take care of yourself. You you do a lot of self care, you do a lot of self management, whatever techniques that you're using. To take care of yourself, you you double them. You do more of it as much as circumstances allow. And you have a lot of just self-care and self-compassion and acknowledging, simply acknowledging. I'm in a different place, in a different situation, a different setting. I have different roles right now. It's not my usual role. And I appreciate what you just said because you are doing this work, so you're very it's very easy for you to go into that mode. And I know this work. However, when we experience a challenge ourselves, sometimes we need others to help us and guide us through the process of this mindfulness or whatever those questions might be, especially when there's loss involved. So we've been maybe CEOs or CFOs or managers for a long time. And now we are changing that identity. Right. And in work life, there are things that happen internally when we experience change. It's interesting that you're making that that parallel because the difference between the private life and the pu and the and the work life and the the public life is that in the in the private life it's more it's more admi admissible. It's okay. It's like you're going through a loss. You're going through a transition. Everybody goes through the transitions. The loss of the parents, the h getting married, having children, becoming an empty nester. Everybody most people go through some of these motions. And so it's okay to have emotions and transition and and going through these difficult things. At work, emotions are not really allowed. Depends on the culture. But in in certain in our culture, certainly in the American culture, emotions are not really that welcome. And so You're supposed to be able to go through transitions a little bit like a robot and go through challenges and tr go through phases that are difficult and not really show anything. You're supposed to if you're feeling anything, do it at home, but not don't bring it to work. So that's one of the big differences, I think, betw between the workplace, the way that you handle these things in the workplace and you do in your private life. Yeah. Thanks for making that point that in leadership also, as leaders, we're supposed to handle it all. Our job is to make sure we are supporters and caregivers or providers for others' needs. However, our own needs are not often tended to. Why would you say challenges are actually good because they help us put a spotlight on the future? Hm. Well, as you said in the beginning, I'm the challenge coach and I picked that name because in that niche because I was naturally attracting people that had really big challenges, so it became a natural thing. But I'm also the challenge coach because I challenge people to rise up to the occasion. So the answer to your question is I actually don't think that necess necessarily that the challenge is a gift, though sometimes it is. We all talk about silver linings and what you learn and what doesn't kill you make you stronger makes you stronger, etcetera, etcetera. There is I believe there is actually some wisdom to that. But most importantly, when we're faced with challenges is when we're faced with the opportunity to grow. What do we grow? Our courage muscles, our resilience muscles, our resilience period, our creativity. We grow through challenges. So it's not so much the challenge itself that's the gift, it's it's who we g become through the challenge, depending on how we decide to handle it. So that's really what I think. There's certain

challenges, especially when you're in the middle of it and they're in the middle of happening to you. And you you're kinda like, I would never have chosen that. And then I can tell you I'm a widow and I I would in a million times I'm gonna cry. A million times if I could do it over, I would get my husband back back. And I did grow through the experience and I became a different person. And I it gave me some gifts and some skills that I'm still using today. So if I could change it, I would change it and it did. help me grow and and change and become more courageous, more resilient for sure. Thank you, Pascal, for sharing. And when you're going through those challenging moments, it's enormous the pressure, the isolation, and a way to find courage in that moment to see that future and and come out of it. And the work that you do is to support others who are challenged. And by just giving them a hand to say, you're not alone. I'm we're gonna do this together. Who was there to support you during this challenging time? many, actually. And yet it's a very this particular story, and I'm sure many can relate in different ways, but it's also very isolating. You you no matter how well you have a network and how well you are surrounded by loving people, well-meaning people, supportive people, it is still an experience that you have to go alone. You have to go through it alone. So but to answer your question, I had I have a very close family. Now they're not geographically close because they're all in Europe and I'm here in the United States. So that was a challenge. But I also have my my big work family. I have a lot of coaches, a lot of therapists around me, and obviously they're all expert in those fields and they were all extremely helpful. And so when you have children you I would say to my mentor, I really don't have a choice. And my mentor would say, No, actually you do have a choice. You are choosing to get up every morning. You are choosing to take care of your kids. You are choosing to continue living. And it it somebody else had to tell me this and that by the way is help and support when somebody helps you make overt something that is not overt to yourself. But so so definitely if I hadn't had children things would probably be different today. But they they definitely were part of my support system in an indirect way. But sometimes my one of my children had a a very, very serious health issue when she was little for many, many years. And as she was a tiny little nugget and she would have horrible things. It was very visible on her body. And people would say, you're so courageous, you're such a strong little girl. And she would come home and she would explode. And she said, I am not courageous. Why do people keep saying I'm courageous? And and so that's an illustration of what you just asked, right? Sometimes you go through things and you just don't really have a choice and you somehow make it through and you hobble through it and and you get stronger and others see it as courage. And in fact it's and and it is courageous because again you do have a choice. You could just give up, right? But but it doesn't always feel like courage in the moment. Absolutely not. And when you're going through a challenge and when people are giving advice, it's not something that is useful. What you just shared From your experience. Thank you for that. One of the things that popped up for me as you were speaking is if we create a community always. So as leaders, if we surround our ourselves with other leaders or other folks, it really is helpful. Right. Exactly. And when we connect with our heart is when we're fully aligned with ourselves. But the mind is racing with thoughts of what ifs. How about and it it's easy to become overwhelmed and that's what I was trying to say is that's the time we try as leaders not to reach out to others. yeah. And that is the time that we have to s get the support system in place. Right. Absolutely, yeah. You you don't you're not supposed to be weak and not knowing and have moments of breakdown and or burnout, so you're stoic and you keep going and you pretend you can and you stuff it all, right? And I really appreciated the the comment that you made about how important communities are in the leadership world. But but there's other groups where it's really about supporting each other and being being a p community of like minded or positioned people in leadership. That can be there for each other for exactly that purpose for when you are struggling and you're supposed to keep it together, but in internally you're falling apart. And if you have a group that can support that, if you have a n a network, a net that's holding you, it's invaluable and and necessary. Yeah. So can you speak to purpose? How do we go about rediscovering the new purpose? So it's it's funny that you would mention that because that's actually a big bulk of the work that I get. it's like middle middle range folks from forty to sixty who have turned a page, have closed a chapter, either because they choose to or because they've been forced to. And who are like, Who am I? Again, this role change, right? You're changing roles. You're like, Who am I now? My kids are gone, my we were expatriates, we're back in our country of origin, I didn't work, now I could work. What am I doing with the rest of my life? Right. And so I actually how I help is actually have developed a methodology. Since I'm the challenge coach, I call it the work challenge. And it's a methodology which is like putting the pieces of a puzzle together. And so we look at a whole number of things, and there's some assessments and exercises and reflection pieces and vision boards and things like that. And people little by little put this puzzle together. And for some people it happens they're very ripe when they come and they already They've been mulling over this for a long time. It's just not really conscious yet. And so they just need one or

two little things or sessions or conversations and off they go and they're ready to go. They were that some people there is so much fear and so much an anxiety and so much self doubt that in fact a lot of time needs to be spent not so much finding the purpose, but having the courage to align with it and go do go go to an ad a n a new adventure and start something brand new. So it's really about s again this self-management, getting getting over oneself and and finding the courage to go after new adventures. But the way we find the purpose, and this is a very Adlerian concept, is about how what are my gifts? What what I've at this point in my life right now. What are my gifts? What are my skills? What are what is my experience? What have I learned? What do I have to bring to the world? That the world will be not as well off if I don't. What do I have to contribute? And one of the exercises I I do very often, even in just free sample sessions, is ask the deathbed question. Sounds gloomy, but I say to people, imagine you're 115 years old and you are lying on your deathbed and you are still your mind is still working, but you're dying. There is no doubt about that. And you look back at your life. What is it that you do not want to regret? And that is usually a kind of a shortcut, a little bit like our lifestyle and early recollection of work is in in Edlerian work to uncover the private logic. This is the other end of that work is the shortcut of if I if I'm dying, what is it that that don't want to have any regrets about? And that has a way of cutting through the clutter and bringing this clarity about what's really important. So that's that's one of the pieces of the puzzle. Absolutely appreciate this conversation about purpose and the discovery of purpose and what you brought up about using this exercise. And I remember doing this exercise in my 30s and redefining the fact on what I wanted to do in my life and what regrets I did not want to carry at the end of my life. It really changes how we see ourselves. and boundaries that we let go of as a result. That realignment, right? And I appreciate that you get to do that with your clients. And you mentioned Adlerian psychology. Can you talk about contribution and belonging and leadership from the Adelarian perspective? Well, we've been talking a lot about alignment and success and loss of purpose and things like that. And so from the psychology of Alfred Adler called individual psychology, he talks about the fact that the the one thing that all humans want more than anything else is the the overarching goal or the meta goal of all humans, according to some some experts, is we all want to feel a sense of belonging. We want to feel like we matter. We want to feel like we're significant. And how do we get that feeling? By contributing by making a difference in in our own way, whatever that might be. And it doesn't have to be your let me try to find a good example, your Gandhi or your Steve Jobs, or it doesn't have to be an enormous example, but every one of us has our own thing to bring to this planet and to to our own little communities. And this giving, this this contribution, this making the group a better place for all, gives us this sense of alignment and this sense of purpose and this sense of belonging that we all thrive for and that we all aspire to. So how do you balance that inner work that you spoke about of that identity and reality of the corporate careers that our leasner might be dealing with? Well this this great question, this concept of contribution is everywhere, right? So our kids contribu can contribute in the in the household by washing dishes and and making salad. the leader in the company can contribute by saying I don't this there's misalignment here. I or I don't agree with what's going on or I don't think the company should be acting this way, doing this way, treating people this way, right? So you can speak up. You can speak up for your values. You can you can try to contribute by changing the culture and aligning it to what you think is important. And it's so that's a courageous act, right? A courageous act is to not just whenever you hit a challenge, s give up and leave versus contribution is about trying to make a difference. So I I can give you an example. I was I'm on the board and I was I'm in an organization and I was complaining to my life partner who knows way more than he wants to know about Adelarian psychology. And I was complaining to him about the organization, about the fact that there is this, that wasn't working, and that, that wasn't okay, etc. And he looked at me, he says, how about instead of complaining you go and do something about it? And that was the taste of my own medicine. I was like, he's right. So I joined the board and I try to see if I couldn't from the inside make some changes. So that's like the idea. So and it didn't work. the organization wasn't ready, wasn't interested, wasn't open to and that's okay. That's their prerogative as well, right? But then then I have to make a choice. I either stay and put up with it or I leave and go find something that's more aligned with me and my values. Yeah. It's it's a beautiful thing. If you don't if you see something that's not working, how are you going to contribute to making that change, right? That contribution. When someone realizes that they're in the wrong lane. What is the first practical step they can take instead of quitting their job? Because that would be the first thing that comes to mind after you try a few things and it's not working. Like you said, I joined an organization, joined the board, and it's not what they wanted or it was they weren't ready for it. Right. How do you manage that? So if somebody actually spoke yesterday to somebody like this, right? It's just like I'm I'm done. I'm gonna quit. I don't wanna do this anymore. It's like, hold on, hold your horses. First take a breath. Take a breath. Pause. Sleep on it. Talk

to people about it. Make a plan. Work on the plan, right? But doing anything in the heat of the moment is typically a bad idea. Go to bed, sleep on it, and then revisit the next day. And guaranteed the the way you're gonna look at things the next morning is gonna be different. So that's always a good idea no matter what. So don't do something spontaneously, just Take stock, write it down, make a call, talk to a friend, talk to a coach, say, can't take this anymore, go for a run, go to bed, sleep on it, and then and then work on it. It's a business problem. It's a business problem. I'm not okay with this anymore. Something needs to change, I can't take it anymore. So you say, Okay, rolling up my sleeves, I'm gonna get to work and I'm gonna figure this out. One way or the other, by myself or with somebody else, right? And so you think about what's what's actually working currently. w and what has been working, what is not working currently, what are the problems? What are my issues? Again, that leads you to your values. What's working is my values are honored. What's not working is my values are not being honored, right? So now you've got some ideas about what's important to you. and then you think about all the things that you go to the deathbed exercise. What are all the things that I don't want to read that I want to make sure I have done in my life. Are any of these possibilities for work? Right. And then you don't again, you don't jump before you've actually tried things out. You go and you practice. You you have informational interviews with people. You do internships with people. You do some research on the internet about jobs. You find out everything there is to know about every one of the opportunities that you're interested in pursuing before you jump ship. So you really just want to slow it down and do your work and do your homework. Absolutely. And the slowdown piece I'm appreciating. And we talk about mindfulness and we talk about taking a deep breath and we know it helps with regulation. And then we can finally use our executive functions rather than get emotional and shut down. In leadership or in workplace, we often don't use it enough because we think we don't have time for that. And if we don't take time to regulate to model that we all are the same and we all could have challenges, then actually it's a workplace which is not real because who here as a leader doesn't need a break? Whose child is not unwell and has an employee that has to come to work or big project deadlines are due and something breaks down. So I I appreciate the mindful aspect of this conversation de really, really as a key point. So I wanna talk about a few more things. What is the most common myth about leadership transitions that you find yourself debunking quite often? Hmm. Leadership transitions. Yeah. I think it's what we already talked about, the fact that it's about the the the role transition, getting from one position to the other and that you have to

that you have to be perfect at it, that you have to already know and that you're gonna be hit the ground running from the minute you start. When in fact it's not about that, it's really about how you prepare yourself internally and how how you show up as a human in this new role so that you can face whatever things are going to be difficult in this transition, the new things that you don't know. So in other words, this what you just spoke to, this mindfulness, this self management, this inner work. So so the the myth is that there is a difference between the inner work and the outer work. And I actually actually wanted to say something about what you just said about mindfulness, which is Yes, in the workplace we think mindfulness is not okay, we who has time for this? Who does this woo-woo stuff, right? Well, it's the same as the emotions we spoke about earlier. You have to think about those things as as an investment. Because we are humans, it doesn't matter where which context we're in, we are humans and we are humans with emotions, including at work. And so if we don't do all these all this work of handling the emotions, giving space to mindfulness, being aware, etc. etc. then you can't You go into this fight-flight mode and you can't think clearly and you're not going to manage your transitions well. So it's essential. And it's like the more you do in that realm of taking care of your humanness, the better you're going to be able to be productive as a work as a worker bee, basically. Right. So so the myth is you can you just have to deal with the with the work part of this transition when in fact what you really have to deal with is your human self first. Yes. When working with leaders, Pascal, what are some of the things that you do to encourage them and to support br help them go from where they are to where you'd like to take them? What are one or two things that you do right away? so let me let me put a little caveat on what you just said. As a as a coach, as a ICF trained and certified coach, one of the things that you learn is that you don't Take anybody anywhere. They tell you where they want to go. And then you're just their their guide and their catalyst along a path that they have chosen, but you don't really decide for them. Now, does that mean that if somebody comes to me completely discouraged and they say, Well, I'm looking for a job, but what I see is that they're they're not getting the job because they're in such a deep state of discouragement, then of course I know that in order for them to reach their goal, which is finding a job, I need to help them get out of discouragement first because that's what keeps them stuck in that moment. So it's a little bit of a complicated or conundrum. But how the the things that I do most typically is working on the encouragement piece. Because people would not come to you or me, to any helping profession if they were completely capable and able and in a great place to reach their goals on

their own. They're coming to get a little help from a friend because something is not working the way it should. And usually attached to that is discouragement. I thought I could and I can't. I wish I want to and for some reason I'm not I'm not. Or I'm struggling and I can't figure out the solution. Or I'm stuck and I can't get out of stuck, right? All of these scenarios, there is discouragement attached to this, which is I don't feel courageous. I don't feel I can. I can I'm capable, I'm competent, I can't do this on my own. And so the number one antidote, the number one, the first step is always encouragement. So focusing on the strength of the person. So I I usually one of the very first in coaching there's exercises and homework in between session. And and so the one of the first exercises is the gratitude practice from psych from positive psychology. So becoming more so when you do this gratitude practice, which is saying three things before you go to bed every night and maybe even writing them down that you're grateful for that happened that day today. It changes the awareness of the person. So it has it actually creates a very deep, systemic, profound change in us that helps a helps us go through our days becoming more aware of the things that are going well versus the things that are not going well. So that's that's one and it's encouraging when you are starting to notice, I didn't get in an accident today. When you start noticing these things, first of you spend less time noticing what didn't happen or what didn't go well. So it shifts your your filter and how you look through how you look at life. And it is a very encouraging exercise in so many ways, in so many deep ways. But but encouraging, focusing on strength, reminding the people what they're capable of, what who they were at the beginning before all of this mess happened, whatever the whatever mess they might be in, right? What are your values? What are your skills? What are the things you're bringing to the table? So all a any type of verbal encouragement, practical encouragement, encouragement exercises that can help somebody do is typically the always the starting point. I appreciate that encouragement as a piece to almost come to an end soon. Pascal, how did you get into wanting to be a coach? What is your story? So I have a French MBA. So I used to do international sales and marketing for the first chunk of my career. And then I had children twenty five plus years ago. And I I thought for sure I was going to be a great parent. And then turned out They I didn't feel like I was. And so I found out about these parent encourag parent classes, parent education classes at the parent encouragement program. Encouragement is their middle name. And those parenting classes were based in the philosophy of this Alfred Adler guy that we've been talking about, and I just fed fell head over heels in love with Adler and I said, I want to do Adler for the rest of my life. How do I do that? So psychology was a little too far from a French MBA. And then coaching was more in the middle and more up my wheelhouse because I came from business. And so 21 years ago now I became a coach. But it really is as a result of meeting Adler through those parenting classes. Yeah. For those who are interested, Alfred Adler is his work is now used in work. place in parenting in classrooms. And you can check out North American Society for Adlerian Psychology, NASAP dot org. And you can learn more about events that we have. There is an education section. There's something for therapists, coaches. It's just phenomenal. Pascal, what is one thing that you would like to l share with leaders who are going through a challenging time right now? so one of my mottos that my if my kids were here they would say they would give you the answer instead of me. The thing that I would always tell them and as as you heard, we went through a few challenges as a family, but the thing is this too shall the motto is this too shall pass. So that's one of the this too shall pass and it's like this. Somehow, somewhere, some way this too shall pass and you'll get to the other side of this. And then another big one is cross that bridge when you get to it. 'Cause so many people Create all these bridges and worry about all these bridges before they're even in front of them and before they have to cross them and create all this mayhem and this additional worry and concern and pain that is unnecessary before you actually get to it. These are two of the things And how could they find you? On my website, thechallengecoach dot com. Everything's on there. Lovely. And of course you're on social media as well? Yes. LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram. Yes. Facebook, Instagram, how did they find you? Always the challenge coach or my name, Pascal Brady. Pretty, pretty easy to find. Thank you for tuning in, being on the edge with Jagged Edge. I'm your host, Yogi Patel. Let us know a question, topic that interests you, and we hope to get some answers and support that you need. Thank you for being with us and your support. Thank you.