النص الكامل لحلقة Former Chicago Prosecutor Exposes Corruption, Gang Hits & the Justice System & Shares True Crime Stories

ever was aware of that concept, you know. 00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:10.879 And it was shocking to me, like, you know, really? 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:11.680 What's that mean? 00:05:11.920 --> 00:05:14.800 I heard words I hadn't heard before of northern Minnesota. 00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:19.759 My grandma would wash her mouth out with soap if you haven't said anything close to anything bad. 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:24.000 So I was pretty Christian, going to Christian schools. 00:05:24.319 --> 00:05:31.120 And um it wasn't in my mother made me take piano lessons once we moved down there, you know, so I didn't want to. 00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:35.360 But then three years later, uh I would see Stevie Wonder. 00:05:35.439 --> 00:05:37.279 I went to a movie and saw Stevie Wonder. 00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:41.519 I think I was 14 or 15 playing with the on the Beach Boy movie. 00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:52.079 He was playing piano and singing and stuff, and I got an urge to want to play again, and I got enough money together and I bought a little organ. 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:54.079 It cost me$340. 00:05:55.120 --> 00:05:58.560 And I called my friend and I said, Hey man, you play guitar. 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:00.720 See the Beatles and all this stuff. 00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:02.720 Why don't we put a band together? 00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:04.160 That's how it started. 00:06:04.240 --> 00:06:05.759 It was just that simplistic. 00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:14.240 Like, I love music, I love playing, and I always catered my or directed my style more to RB style. 00:06:14.319 --> 00:06:15.439 Yeah, I like that. 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:22.319 Well, I mean, the songs we learned were, for example, Kansas City, Kansas City, Hiracko, Muddy Waters, they all did that. 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:23.519 Everybody covered that too. 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:29.360 Johnny Be Good, you know, Roll Over Beethoven, uh, Walkin' the Dog. 00:06:29.839 --> 00:06:33.279 That's the songs I learned as a 15-year-old. 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:36.319 So that feeling stuck with me. 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:38.560 You know, I never changed that. 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:43.360 And shortly thereafter, I started playing in blends that were blended. 00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:45.040 I don't know what you can say anymore. 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:46.560 I'm so afraid to say words. 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:51.839 But, you know, there were artists of different nationality or ethnic groups. 00:06:52.160 --> 00:07:03.439 Primarily, I mean, like from my perspective, if I can say this, I think drummers and bass players are black musicians are the best drummers and the best bass players, without question. 00:07:03.600 --> 00:07:14.800 I mean, I've learned that, and I don't know many people that argue that point because there's a certain feel, there's a certain rhythm, there's a certain laid-backness about the way, you know, it's not a rush. 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:18.480 Rock musicians tend to rush, they they're always on top of the beat. 00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:23.759 I always like being in the pocket, you know, laying back and drummer, and the people ought to lay back. 00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:31.040 I mean, they and so I I always gravitated toward that style of music, and that's pretty much what I did. 00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:36.000 I spent some years in a straight rock and roll band, but even then those guys were in the RB. 00:07:36.079 --> 00:07:37.519 I mean, we always were, you know. 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:47.839 And then eventually I uh the last music musical in Devon I did was a band called Show Factor on Warner Brothers, and it was primarily a black group and me. 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:51.360 You know, I used to be, I used to be uh, what's the word? 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:54.879 I used to be so proud that they'd say that's our blue-eyed soul brother, you know. 00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:56.959 Because that's a compliment, you know. 00:07:57.199 --> 00:08:05.519 I mean, I to play with some of these people coming from where I came from, that to me, I I was impressed that they let me play with. 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:08.240 I mean, I held my own, don't get me wrong. 00:08:08.560 --> 00:08:11.839 But it was something I was always fond of, much. 00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:24.959 And so, and that affected my life as I went on because when I was in high school, I my um parents were gonna let me quit, but I played all the time, and then I got ready to go to college, and there was a war called Vietnam. 00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:27.040 And if he didn't go to school, he got drafted. 00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:27.439 Yeah. 00:08:27.680 --> 00:08:30.000 So I stayed in school, but I never stopped playing. 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:37.120 I mean, I toured the whole bit, and then by the time college was over, um, I was gonna get drafted. 00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:42.720 And then I got lucky because there was a uh Selective Service had a drawing. 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:45.440 They pick your name or number out of a thing. 00:08:45.519 --> 00:08:53.360 And depending on which they pulled out, they'd all every birthday was in this big hopper, and they'd pull them out one at a time and they put them on a board. 00:08:53.519 --> 00:08:56.559 So they'd say one, two, three, and that might be April 1st. 00:08:56.799 --> 00:08:59.200 Two might be March 27th. 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:06.320 So if they said before, he said the first 180 numbers we dates we pull out, they're gonna get drafted. 00:09:06.559 --> 00:09:09.039 So people are like, You talk about sweating. 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:15.039 Yeah, you're sitting watching this on TV, and the guy's shit it's like a lot, it's called the lottery. 00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:15.440 Yeah. 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:20.480 And and uh I was 286. 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:25.200 So they said we're only going to 180, so I'm out, I don't have to worry about it now. 00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:31.120 And my friend in the band said to me, you know, Greg, we've been screwed so many times by our

managers who have lawyers. 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:33.519 You went to college, why don't you take some law classes? 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:35.600 I go, what are you crazy? 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:38.159 Law, what's that mean, law classes? 00:09:38.399 --> 00:09:41.919 And then he asked me again, and then I said, Well, I'll look into it. 00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:42.879 So I did. 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:49.600 And I took some tests, still in the band, and got accepted and went to law school. 00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:56.399 And when I started my first day, hair on my shoulders, braids in my hair, bell bottoms, platform. 00:09:56.639 --> 00:10:04.879 I mean, I was and these guys in the law school had odd suits and ties on, you know, but here's me, you know, totally unique. 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:05.919 I didn't care. 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:08.799 I said to the dean, you know what, Dean, I have a question. 00:10:08.879 --> 00:10:09.600 Yes, uh, Mr. 00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:10.240 Owen. 00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:13.440 As he says to me, I say to him, I'm gonna ban you. 00:10:13.679 --> 00:10:15.039 It was pretty obvious. 00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:16.000 Oh, okay. 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:20.080 I said, but we tour mainly from June till January. 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:23.840 We don't tour as much in the winter because we're here, you know, but we still play. 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:30.480 I said, I want to go to school only every other semester, and then I'll, when I'm in school, I'll just play around the area, you know. 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:31.679 And he said, Okay. 00:10:32.159 --> 00:10:36.000 So it took me five years to go through law school, but I never stopped playing. 00:10:36.080 --> 00:10:37.840 I toured all over the country. 00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:47.759 And when I got done the last semester, you know, we heard so much story about stories about people having visions and housing, you know, something comes to them out of nowhere. 00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:49.919 Well, how many examples? 00:10:50.159 --> 00:10:53.200 I'm walking down the stairway, hair on my shoulders. 00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:58.960 I just had a breakup with a young woman that I was really fond of, and it really messed me up a little bit. 00:10:59.120 --> 00:11:01.039 Plus, I was questioning my ability. 00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:02.320 You know, I couldn't sing. 00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:06.960 And when you're a keyboard player and you can't sing, you're sort of dependent on other people. 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:08.960 I mean, so what do you do then? 00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:09.440 Yeah. 00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:18.320 We had gone to a piano bar with the band one night after a gig, and uh one of the guys at the band said, see, that'll be you in a few years. 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:20.320 And I go, No, no, no, no, no. 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:23.279 Some old guy in all old playing piano. 00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:25.600 I said, No, no, no, I don't want to do that. 00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:26.399 And I didn't sing. 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:32.799 So I was walking, it was a school, walking down the stairs, saw a bulletin board, which was all the time, was just full of opportunities. 00:11:32.960 --> 00:11:40.080 But I looked up at the far right-hand corner and there was a little note that said, Cook County State's Attorney's Office will be in room 204. 00:11:40.159 --> 00:11:46.000 It would have been like the next day, Thursday, seeking candidates for intern or assistant states attorney. 00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:48.799 I had never looked at that board in five years. 00:11:49.039 --> 00:11:51.679 Never, I had no intention of being a lawyer. 00:11:51.919 --> 00:11:57.600 And I look, I looked at the board, and something inside me very clearly said, you better do that. 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:02.240 I'm like, What was that? 00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:04.399 I looked again. 00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:06.080 It got louder. 00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:10.240 And I wasn't, I'd never done acid, I wasn't hallucinating. 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:18.559 I took a deep breath, and then I did one more time, I just looked side to side, and then it said it again, and it said, if you don't, you're gonna kill yourself. 00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:20.720 Now you think about this. 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:22.879 I've been in a band my whole life almost. 00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:31.600 I went immediately to a payphone, called my mother and said, Mom, it's like three in the afternoon, you know the guy that cuts your hair, Dino, would you ask him if he could cut my hair tonight? 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:32.960 My mother's like, What's wrong with you? 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:34.000 What do you mean? 00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:36.320 Because she couldn't, you know, what are you all of a sudden? 00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:38.159 I said, No, I just gotta do it. 00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:42.480 I got home, got my hair cut, she took me to the mall and got me a suit. 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:47.279 I don't know if she thought I was all there or not, but I knew I was, I was fine. 00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:53.360 And uh I went to this interview the next day, and the man said to me, What's your lucky day, Greg? 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:56.320 I'm like, My lucky day, I don't even know what I'm doing here. 00:12:56.399 --> 00:12:58.480 You know, I'm just following something. 00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:11.600 And uh he said, There's a new Supreme Court rule that said if you're a senior law student last semester and you have good grades, you can go into a courtroom if you're supervised by a governmental agency and try cases like a real lawyer. 00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:14.559 I had never even been in a courtroom, okay, ever. 00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:16.480 My whole life. 00:13:17.840 --> 00:13:23.039 And this it it I believe it was a lawyer. 00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:27.679 Okay, I'm just gonna be like, I don't care what anybody thinks about it, because it was too powerful and it was too dramatic. 00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:34.960 You know, they say about

changing overnight, that saying, okay, it was Wednesday, late afternoon. 00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:39.840 The next day, I'm in front of this guy with shorter hair, and he tells me it's your lucky day. 00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:40.879 And I didn't know what that meant. 00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:43.120 So he said, Can you start Monday afternoon? 00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:44.159 And I did, okay. 00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:48.559 So I show up at this court facility, which uh it was so crowded. 00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:51.519 I mean, the building was just jammed with people. 00:13:51.679 --> 00:13:56.240 You could smell hot dogs, everybody was smoking, yelling, swearing, you name it. 00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:00.240 I walk into this courtroom, I could hardly get in, it was so crowded. 00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:04.960 I go to the front, there's a young real prosecutor who says, Here, are you the are you the law student? 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:06.080 I go, I guess, yeah. 00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:08.000 He goes, Start calling all these names. 00:14:08.159 --> 00:14:11.440 Now there's a judge sitting right there on the bench doing a trial. 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:13.360 I said, What do you mean? 00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:14.480 He starts yelling. 00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:16.240 The judge doesn't even flinch. 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:20.080 I mean, it was so crowded, they had to keep going and they couldn't find people. 00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:27.039 So I started yelling names, and two weeks later I quit the band and I started there. 00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:30.879 Uh I went there every day for six months and loved every minute of it. 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:34.559 I felt like I was doing something positive. 00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:36.799 Now, remember this. 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:41.120 I played in bands often with musicians of all different colors. 00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:45.759 So I walked in this job without without any preconceived prejudice, nothing. 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:48.080 It's just that's just what I do, right? 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:59.519 And come to find that that courtroom I was working in at that time as a student would be considered the most corrupt courtroom in Chicago ever. 00:14:59.840 --> 00:15:01.200 And I was naive. 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:03.120 But there were payoffs going on. 00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:05.759 Eventually, you could see it, you know. 00:15:05.919 --> 00:15:08.879 Same lawyers who win in every case, and they were terrible lawyers. 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:19.440 And so I took the bar exam, and the day I finished, the second day, I went for lunch, and it was downtown Chicago, and I heard sirens, a lot of sirens. 00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:23.360 I mean, more than usual, even for Chicago, coming from every direction. 00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:24.879 I didn't think much of it. 00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:33.919 I go back there and finish the bar exam, and and uh I go home and I see a newspaper article that says, contractor actors found slain in the paper box. 00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:35.840 I had no change, so I didn't take one. 00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:36.799 Pretty amazed. 00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:37.759 I didn't know what it was about. 00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:44.000 I went in the house and uh my brother called me about half an hour later, and he goes, Greg, I said, What's up, Jay? 00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:45.200 He goes, Man, I'm so bummed out. 00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:45.759 I go, why? 00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:47.840 My friend and his girlfriend got murdered. 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:48.559 I go, where? 00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:51.919 He goes, I lived in the city, not too far from where you live. 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:53.039 I go, You're kidding. 00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:53.840 Tell me about it. 00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:56.000 And he started telling me, I go, wait a second. 00:15:56.320 --> 00:15:58.399 Was your friend like a contractor? 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:00.159 Well, his father was. 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:02.000 How about the girlfriend? 00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:03.759 Yeah, she just finished acting school. 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:05.279 I said, I just saw the headline. 00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:06.080 That was your friend. 00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:07.200 I didn't know this guy. 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:08.559 He says, Yeah, yeah. 00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:10.240 I went out with his sister. 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:11.360 I didn't know that. 00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:12.799 I was on tour, I never knew. 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:14.639 My brother's four years younger. 00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:23.039 So I left the next day to go to LA to hang out for two months with my band that I used to be in that was doing an album for Mercury Records. 00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:23.360 Okay. 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:24.000 Uh-huh. 00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:29.600 Well, long story short, four years later, I prosecute that double murder case. 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:43.759 Uh the case involved uh a 24-year-old at the time, rich, ultra-rich, real rich kid, prominent family, who butchered two of his friends, stabbed them to death, and left them for dead in their part her apartment. 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:46.399 The rich kid is the one who was the bad guy. 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:47.600 He's the killer. 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:50.960 Everybody, though, was not nobody was poor in this case. 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:54.000 They lived in a nice area in Chicago, right off the lake. 00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:55.679 Their girlfriend did. 00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:07.279 And um and and so the case itself had a lot of super strange things occur that I had never heard of. 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:12.400 Now I'm now working at 26 in California, which is the criminal court building of Chicago. 00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:15.200 I get a call in late November of 79. 00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:17.359 I've been there about three and a half, four years. 00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:19.680 And the call is from my brother. 00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:21.920 And he goes, Greg, would you do me a favor? 00:17:22.319 -->

00:17:25.359 He said, you know my friend's murder case? 00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:26.720 I go, Yeah, I don't remember that. 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:27.440 So what happened? 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:28.079 He goes, Oh. 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:32.559 This is before you tried this is before you dealt with it. 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:33.039 Yes. 00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:33.920 So we go, okay. 00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:35.680 I I didn't even know whatever happened to us. 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:40.960 You know, I I had already tried 41 murder jury trials by in within three and a half years. 00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:43.839 I mean, I was on by then. 00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:44.480 By then. 00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:44.960 Okay. 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:46.559 We were on trial every single month. 00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:48.079 I mean, there was no Okay. 00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:51.359 I mean, if you took a vacation, people looked at you like, what are you nuts? 00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:52.880 We can't take vacations. 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:54.240 It was too that's how much crime. 00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:59.599 We had the highest crime rate in Chicago murder rate, 891 that went in 1980. 00:17:59.920 --> 00:18:05.599 And so it was so bad, and there was only 36 of us doing out of 800 doing murder cases. 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:10.799 So I had extensive experience at a very young age, very, very young age. 00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:18.400 So um, what happened was he said to me, would you just look into it and see what happened? 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:19.279 I said, sure. 00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:24.400 So I made some calls, and it wasn't assigned to where I was, and that's where all the murder cases were. 00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:30.880 I find out it's assigned to a court building that never to this day ever had a murder case. 00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:35.599 I also find out that this guy that killed two people was out on bond. 00:18:35.839 --> 00:18:37.839 Who gets a bond on a double murder? 00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:41.119 I don't care what it is, and it was a low bond. 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:42.400 How do you do that? 00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:45.839 How did he get a low bond on a double murder? 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:47.440 Yes. 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:57.920 And not only that, how did he get the case assigned to a court facility that never had murder cases in front of a judge who was close friends with his lawyer? 00:18:58.160 --> 00:18:59.680 How do you work that out? 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:03.519 Now, these are the things I'm finding out after the fact. 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:12.319 So I go downtown, I find the prosecutor that works in this one courtroom, I go, hey Sandy, I'm looking for a file. 00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:13.839 He goes, What is it? 00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:17.519 I tell him, he goes, Greg, do yourself a big favor. 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:19.200 Because I'm gonna tell you me, he said. 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:21.440 I wouldn't touch that case with a 10-foot pole. 00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:23.039 What's the problem? 00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:24.960 He goes, It's poison. 00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:27.440 Yeah, it is so corrupt. 00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:30.720 He says, the eyewitness is now taking the fifth. 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:32.000 He won't even testify. 00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:33.519 We got a letter from his lawyer. 00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:38.880 The evidence, there was some evidence seized at the defendant's house after the murders. 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:40.240 And guess what? 00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:42.559 The judge said we couldn't use it. 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:50.319 And then when we appealed, the judge and the appellate court said we could, between then and now, the evidence disappeared out of the evidence locker. 00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:51.200 It's all gone. 00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:53.039 I'm like, what? 00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:55.839 He goes, Yeah, that's right. 00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:58.640 He said, So there's no case. 00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:03.920 So I said, Well, let me just look at it, you know, just for the sake of my brother. 00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:08.319 So he starts looking for it in the file cameras, he can't find it. 00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:14.240 He goes on his hands and knees like this, and he's looking under a desk and he pulls his folder out of the desk. 00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:15.839 It's a mess. 00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:17.759 I said, Well, let me look at it. 00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:18.880 He goes, Good luck. 00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:19.519 Good luck. 00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:22.000 Remember, I told you, I said, fine, Sandy. 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:27.680 So I open, I'd see this picture of this kid, 24 years old, and I see where he lives. 00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:31.839 Now understand that I we were dealing with so much corruption on a daily basis. 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:34.640 We would have to plan trials based on corruption. 00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:37.279 Okay, how can we get around this if they bribe this person? 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:38.319 What do we do with this person? 00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:38.720 Yeah. 00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:40.079 I mean, that's that's how we had the. 00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:46.400 We were thinking, I mean, I'm 27, 28, and I'm thinking about how do I win a murder case when everybody's being paid off? 00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:52.000 So what happened was, you know, I'm I'm I'm like, oh my gosh. 00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:55.680 But when I looked at the case, and we were all of us were fed up with this corruption. 00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:57.920 It was so bad, it was disgusting. 00:20:58.000 --> 00:20:58.240 Okay. 00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:00.400 I said, This is it, man. 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:01.359 I don't care what. 00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:03.200 I'm gonna get this, we're gonna take this case. 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:04.640 I called my partner Mike. 00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:06.640 I says, This case sucks, Mike. 00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:09.279 We're gonna lose it, but at least we'll get a trial. 00:21:09.519 -->

00:21:12.640 He goes, Fine, man, I'll take it with you. 00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:23.599 So he took this case, and the book that I rewrote called Convergence is about what it took to go from the day my brother called to actually get this in front of a jury. 00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:25.519 There's an audio version too. 00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:26.079 What? 00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:27.920 I said there's an audio version too. 00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:28.559 Yeah, there is. 00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:28.799 Yeah. 00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:34.400 And in the audio version, I actually give my actual closing argument that I gave right from the transcript. 00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:40.400 So, you know, people a lot of true crime books, you know, well, they know who did it, or this and that. 00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:41.279 This wasn't the way it was. 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:42.720 Of course they knew who did it. 00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:47.839 What was what was weird about it was how long it took to get it to go to trial. 00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:48.319 Yeah. 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:51.599 And why it took so long and what we had to go through. 00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:59.519 You know, people say, people tell me true crime is a convergence is a true crime story, and it is. 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:02.640 But I think it's more a book about com perseverance. 00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:08.160 I mean, Mike and I had no witness, no evidence. 00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:12.319 Uh judges had almost destroyed the case. 00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:14.720 But we said, I don't give a I don't care. 00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:17.839 We're gonna we're gonna try to fix it, we're gonna try to make it right. 00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:18.559 And we did. 00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:20.960 You know, the point is obstacles don't mean defeat. 00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:22.480 And you have people have to learn that. 00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:22.799 Yeah. 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:26.480 You know, just because the odds are against you doesn't mean you're gonna lose. 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:28.079 And a lot of people give up. 00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:36.160 What was your motivation in actually getting this, get going through this case when all the odds was against you? 00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:49.119 Because, well, first of all, the fact that I'm staring at this guy and he's gonna think he's gonna walk in a double murder, stabbing two of his friends to death in front of a witness, and he's just gonna walk free because he's paying people, no way, man. 00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:53.920 If nothing else, we never approach it like we would win for sure. 00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:57.839 We just said, at least we're gonna give the victims a voice. 00:22:58.079 --> 00:23:00.160 You know, people forget the victims. 00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:02.240 I mean, I walk in to look for the core file. 00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:06.960 The first thing that Sandy said to me is, well, you know, Greg, not only is the poison, but you know what? 00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:09.119 They're all a bunch of drunk addicts anyway. 00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:10.960 Now, listen, think of this. 00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:12.160 I'm from a band. 00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:14.880 You don't think I've been around people doing drugs? 00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:19.119 Do you think I thought you should be executed because you had a party? 00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:20.960 That's what people thought then. 00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:24.160 They thought if you got high, oh, so you get killed. 00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:27.119 Like prostitutes or people, women of the street. 00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:29.440 Like if they get killed, oh, it's too bad, it's her fault. 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:31.279 Who thinks like that? 00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:33.200 That's how people thought. 00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:34.079 You know. 00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:39.759 You didn't have like crazy amounts of money then. 00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:41.759 They had more money than you. 00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:46.000 So, what would make you go against people like that with money? 00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:50.000 And was it some scary stuff happening towards you around that time? 00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:50.799 Yep. 00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:53.920 Well, uh, that was the point, I think. 00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:54.880 I think, oh, really? 00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:57.599 You think you're gonna buy your way out of this thing? 00:23:57.920 --> 00:23:58.880 No way, man. 00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:06.400 And it was like, you know, they say character isn't revealed when life is easy. 00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:09.759 It's revealed when doing the right thing can cost you. 00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:10.240 Uh-huh. 00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:11.519 And that's how we felt. 00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:14.000 I mean, we were not going to compromise what we believed in. 00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:16.640 That's just the kind of guys we were as pr as a team. 00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:21.519 And it was it it stood as a challenge against corruption. 00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:24.000 And we all wanted to do something about it. 00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:25.759 But here was an opportunity. 00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:28.799 At least, at least possibly get a trial. 00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:30.240 Because they were going to throw it out. 00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:32.079 There was going to be no trial. 00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:35.599 Did you receive, I'm saying, did you like receive threats and stuff? 00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:36.000 Yes. 00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:36.559 Yeah. 00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:38.000 What kind of threats were you receiving? 00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:41.839 Well, the biggest thing I received was the night before my closing argument. 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:43.759 Uh, we were finishing up for the day. 00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:45.839 Next day was the arguments in the morning. 00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:51.200 I get a call from a former classmate and a guy that used to work in our office. 00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:52.559 Like 10 calls. 00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:55.440 I get to my office, there's all these

pink notes. 00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:56.720 Urgent, urgent. 00:24:56.799 --> 00:24:58.559 I'm like, what's so urgent? 00:24:58.799 --> 00:25:02.559 So I call him up and I say, hey, I'm not going to say his name. 00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:04.960 We'll just say Frank for a name. 00:25:05.440 --> 00:25:05.920 Hey, Frank. 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:06.319 What's up? 00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:07.680 He goes, Man, I got to see you. 00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:08.400 I got to see you. 00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:09.039 It's really important. 00:25:09.119 --> 00:25:10.000 It involves your case. 00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:11.440 I go, Well, just tell me. 00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:12.160 No, no, no. 00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:13.279 It's got to be in person. 00:25:13.519 --> 00:25:16.240 Well, the guy was so persistent, I'm like, what a pain. 00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:17.920 He says, Meet me at Geno's Eats. 00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:19.519 It's a pizza place in Chicago. 00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:20.480 So I do. 00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:22.880 And I walk in, he's sitting in a little booth. 00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:24.640 He's got a duffel bag next to him. 00:25:24.799 --> 00:25:27.039 And he's Oh, Greg, how you been, man? 00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:31.440 You know, I had a nickname called Disco DA for some stupid oh, Disco. 00:25:31.759 --> 00:25:33.759 And he said, I said, Yeah, what's up, my man? 00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:36.480 I'm sort of got to get finished getting ready for this argument. 00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:37.680 It's about seven o'clock. 00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:41.680 He said to me, You know, you got you're prosecuting the wrong guy. 00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:44.640 I'm looking at him like, yes, what? 00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:45.839 He goes, Yeah, you are. 00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:48.240 He goes, I know the defendant. 00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:50.400 And he that's good, he's a good people, man. 00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:52.559 And I go, uh, no, he's not. 00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:54.079 He's a double murderer. 00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:55.119 Oh, no, no, no. 00:25:55.279 --> 00:25:57.440 And he's arguing with me out of nowhere. 00:25:57.519 --> 00:25:59.759 And he goes, well, let me put it this way. 00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:05.119 His family is very appreciative of people who do the right thing. 00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:14.400 He takes his, he takes his stuff up, he lifts it off the seat, he unzips it, and there's hundred-dollar bills and wrappers, and it was just packed with them. 00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:15.680 And he's holding it like this. 00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:20.559 I'm like, I'm I'm still I'm like dumbfounded. 00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:22.880 And he goes, There's$50,000 here. 00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:23.759 It's all yours. 00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:24.720 He zips it back in. 00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:28.640 All you got to do is tone down your closing argument. 00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:31.759 I was sort of known for closing arguments back in the day. 00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:34.720 And uh I looked forward to him. 00:26:34.799 -->

00:26:39.359 And I stared at him for a second and I said, F apostrophe. 00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:40.640 Yeah, you can say it. 00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:41.680 I said, fuck me. 00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:42.880 I said, fuck you, man. 00:26:43.839 --> 00:26:45.200 I'm gonna tell you what I said to him. 00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:51.359 I said, if you ever fucking come near me in the rest of my life, we're gonna have a big problem. 00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:53.920 And he sat there like, what's wrong, man? 00:26:54.079 --> 00:26:55.680 I go, I said, you know what? 00:26:55.839 --> 00:27:00.400 To think that you thought I might take this fucking money, are you sick? 00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:01.759 Where did you come up with that? 00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:05.839 I mean, I was more insulted that he thought I might take it than he even offered it. 00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:12.640 So I left and went to payphone, called my partner, we called our boss, we reported the whole thing, you know. 00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:14.960 And then whatever happened then happened. 00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:16.240 I mean, I I'm out of it now. 00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:19.359 I mean, I gotta do a close argument the next day. 00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:21.519 But that's how desperate they got. 00:27:22.799 --> 00:27:25.759 Because they realized, and they had three of the best criminal lawyers. 00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:27.359 They had the dream team at the time. 00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:31.680 I mean, their three lawyers combined had 98 years experience. 00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:34.240 My partner and I had a total of nine. 00:27:34.880 --> 00:27:36.960 I know they had to have it out for you after that. 00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:37.680 Oh, yeah. 00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:38.400 Yeah. 00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:42.319 I mean, there's another little sideline that's sort of sort of amusing. 00:27:42.559 --> 00:27:44.799 When I was in law school, I had the long hair. 00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:49.279 So my second year last semester, one of my classmates says, you know what? 00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:56.400 You should take uh Sherman Maguson, he's a professor, uh, trial technique, trial advocacy, how to try a case. 00:27:56.720 --> 00:27:59.920 He said, because he only gives not worse grade as a B. 00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:02.160 Sounds good to me. 00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:03.440 So I take the class. 00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:05.200 Again, everybody's got suits and ties. 00:28:05.279 --> 00:28:08.079 I got long hair and the whole yeah. 00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:10.559 I go through the course, I thought I did okay, you know. 00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:12.079 Gets to the last day. 00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:17.039 He hands everybody their grade on a sheet of paper, folded over it, and you walk out, and that's the end of it. 00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:19.599 But he said to me, Greg, could you stay over for a second? 00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:20.960 Okay, you know. 00:28:21.200 --> 00:28:23.039 He goes, I'm sitting at a desk like this. 00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:27.359 He takes another desk, he brings it so he's facing me, you know, his knees are almost touching mine. 00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:35.279 And he reaches over and puts his hand on my shoulder, like across, and he goes, I'm gonna give you some good advice, like a dad or something, you know. 00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:38.480 He said, Um, I got your grade right here. 00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:41.519 It's the lowest grade I've ever given. 00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:46.000 He goes, You should have got a D, but I gave you a C minus. 00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:49.519 Because you do not have what it takes to be a trial lawyer. 00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:53.519 You don't have the charisma, you don't have the style, you don't have the posture. 00:28:53.680 --> 00:28:55.200 He went out all litany. 00:28:55.279 --> 00:28:58.400 I'm like, I'm like 23, 24 years old. 00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:01.440 I didn't really want to be a lawyer anyway, but it was still insulting. 00:29:01.519 --> 00:29:02.079 I mean, you know. 00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:05.440 And he goes, So if you become a lawyer, just be a corporate lawyer. 00:29:05.519 --> 00:29:06.559 Don't ever go to court. 00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:13.440 Well, he was the lawyer that led that defense team that my partner and I went up against, and we took him down two hours. 00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:16.640 The jury came back guilty of, I mean, quick. 00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:26.160 So when we were all done, and the judge, the jury left the courtroom, he stands up and we happen to cross pass, and there were some reporters there. 00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:28.240 And I said, Hey, Mr. 00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:32.240 Maggotson, not bad for a C minus student, huh? 00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:36.799 So I got my day, comebacks of bitch, as they say. 00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:38.640 I mean, I never lost the case. 00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:40.960 I mean, and here's a guy telling me, that's what I'm saying. 00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:44.400 Don't let people affect how you run your life. 00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:48.480 He told me I should, I mean, it's an expert telling me that I should never do this. 00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:49.519 Right. 00:29:50.079 --> 00:29:52.480 I mean, and like I said, I didn't plan it. 00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:56.480 But once I got into it, I mean, the good Lord gave me the talent. 00:29:57.359 --> 00:30:03.680 I mean, there's no question about it, because I never craved for it, didn't necessarily want to do it, yeah, but I did. 00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:13.119 I want to give, like, I want to go back a little, give fair context to the to the way you look at things when you're trying things. 00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:17.680 So when you came from what was it, Minnesota or Canada? 00:30:17.839 --> 00:30:18.480 Which part you say? 00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:21.359 I lived south of Canada, then we live near the Minneapolis, St. 00:30:21.519 --> 00:30:21.839 Paul. 00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:26.640 When you got to Chicago, it was a shock for you because of the racism. 00:30:26.799 -->

00:30:26.880 Oh. 00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:29.440 Because of where you come from, there wasn't. 00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:33.920 You and you was amongst people of color so much so. 00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:34.400 Yeah. 00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:50.400 So when you get here, I mean, when you get to Chicago and see that, talk about some of the things you you you had to go through, especially being a white man, being accepting to people of colour, black people, Mexicans, and all of that stuff. 00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:50.960 Like you. 00:30:51.279 --> 00:30:51.599 Yeah. 00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:52.079 Yeah. 00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:52.640 Yeah. 00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:57.440 Um, well, I was about 12, 13, the first time I heard the N-word, so to speak. 00:30:57.599 --> 00:30:58.400 You know what I mean? 00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:00.160 I didn't know what it meant. 00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:03.039 You know, I said, what's that? 00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:06.240 You know, of course, my white friend's like, what are you stupid? 00:31:06.319 --> 00:31:07.039 And this and that. 00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:10.000 I go, why? 00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:12.079 I mean, nobody had an explanation. 00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:13.519 That's just the way it is, you know. 00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:20.160 But you know, when you're raised knowing that's not how it is, I never went into it. 00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:21.599 I never fell prey to that. 00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:26.880 Of course, and when I got into music, you know, it never was an issue. 00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:31.440 He's a drummer, he's a bass player, he's a keyboard player, he's a sax player. 00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:34.079 I don't care what color he is, it never even crossed my mind. 00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:35.519 We don't care about that. 00:31:35.759 --> 00:31:39.920 So when I became a prosecutor, Chicago was very divided. 00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:43.680 I mean, it was pretty back in those days. 00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:57.119 And I don't want to say I took he for it, but I can say this um there was uh not a policy, but sort of an unspoken when you select a jury, try to keep as many black people off the jury as you can. 00:31:58.960 --> 00:32:02.160 And I thought that was the absolute most stupid thing. 00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:04.880 I don't care racism or not, it's ignorant. 00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:06.559 And I'll tell you why. 00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:09.759 One of the guys I played in the band with, his name was Reuben Locke. 00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:13.680 I loved Ruben, he was a great drummer, and I would stay at his house, you know. 00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:18.480 His mom, his dad was named Ruben, and and uh his dad was a bus driver. 00:32:19.519 --> 00:32:30.480 And bus drivers I've found are the most down to earth, don't want crime, get sick of people giving them a hard time when they're driving their bus in any neighborhood. 00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:32.400 They're not about color. 00:32:32.559 --> 00:32:35.680 They're about leave me alone, let me drive my bus. 00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:45.599 So I, you know, so I told my one case, this one partner, and I said, first of all, I don't care what color, but he's a black, he's a bus driver. 00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:46.240 Too. 00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:48.559 Oh, I said, are you stupid? 00:32:48.640 --> 00:32:50.160 Have you ever lived around black people? 00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:51.039 Do you know what it's like? 00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:56.240 Do you know what it's like to teach high school in a black community based on based on what they have to put up with? 00:32:56.400 --> 00:33:00.480 They're not they're not against, they're for law and order. 00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:02.160 They want things to be controlled. 00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:04.319 And I said, There's no way. 00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:05.839 I mean, we're stupid. 00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:07.119 And I wouldn't do it. 00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:16.480 I just wouldn't, they call that the uh, you know, pre like using your preemptory challenges to eliminate races, which is the dumbest thing you could do. 00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:25.519 I mean, there's those people in those communities are probably more against crime than us kids out in the suburbs that have never even seen crime. 00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:31.680 And I I knew that right away because to think that you just exclude people. 00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:40.079 And that was a that was where once I was told a supervisor came up to see us on trial. 00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:44.319 I mean, there were two or three black people in the jury, you know. 00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:48.880 When I left, they said I was told this you better win that case. 00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:50.720 You better win that case. 00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:54.559 As if, oh, if I don't, then what? 00:33:55.279 --> 00:33:57.039 So it was it changed. 00:33:57.200 --> 00:33:58.000 Don't get me wrong. 00:33:58.079 --> 00:34:01.839 I mean, within my office, two years older or younger made a big difference. 00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:06.319 So as younger people were coming in after me, they didn't come with that attitude. 00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:10.400 And then there was an actual Supreme Court case that said you can't do that. 00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:16.480 Batson, you you that can't just and I never even considered it, you know. 00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:19.119 I because I thought it was stupid too. 00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:20.800 Racist and stupid. 00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:26.639 I'm gonna go to the like Chicago like ghetto community and all of that stuff. 00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:36.400 Like, obviously, we don't have access to before the white people bring it to us, or whether the drugs and the alcohol putting the stuff, you know what I'm saying? 00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:37.679 Putting the stuff in the hood. 00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:42.400 And I want to know how you looked at that in you know, we're dealing with poverty and all of that too. 00:34:42.639 --> 00:34:50.159 So the positions you put in to have to make money or whatever,

and you it some can't get jobs, or you know what I mean? 00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:51.519 How did you look at that? 00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:54.239 That uh I looked at it as if people had no hope. 00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:55.599 I mean, there was no hope. 00:34:55.760 --> 00:35:02.960 I mean, you're living in a community where there aren't jobs that that really mean anything, and how do you get them? 00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:08.960 You know, um, the unions were all pretty much one, you know, one race. 00:35:09.199 --> 00:35:15.519 And so the opportunities weren't there, and you and when you're a young person, I became a gang prosecutor. 00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:18.239 I became the first chief of gang prosecutors. 00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:22.480 And I really learned even more then is that um who are the idols? 00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:23.920 You know, who do you look up to? 00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:24.960 Who's got the nice car? 00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:26.480 Who's got the nice stuff? 00:35:26.719 --> 00:35:27.840 The drug dealers. 00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:32.159 You know, so where's who who other idols do you have? 00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:38.159 I mean, unless you play basketball really well or some sports, what's your escape? 00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:39.199 It's not easy. 00:35:39.280 --> 00:35:49.440 And you know, you got a lot of women who are single parents and they're trying to work their job and take care of their family, and they're they got these young boys, and who are they looking up to? 00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:49.760 Yeah. 00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:51.840 So there's nobody else, you know. 00:35:52.000 --> 00:36:04.079 And and and you know, when you when you appreciate what the situation is, it makes it somewhat not easy, but you understand what you're dealing with, okay? 00:36:04.559 --> 00:36:10.639 And I think that's why this in this convergence case, I see this white kid man, multimillionaire at every opportunity in the world. 00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:18.880 Could have and he's in a th he's in a wife of a double murder, and all these other people who can't afford a great attorney, they may not even be guilty. 00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:20.559 But how what are their chances are? 00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:25.119 And it just it was just one of those situations I just said I've had enough, I can't deal with this. 00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:33.360 So, yeah, I mean, I I I I approached it from a totally different way because I didn't, I wasn't raised. 00:36:33.519 --> 00:36:40.559 I I mean, I was like someone was dropped from somewhere else in this system because I didn't come from the background that most of these people did. 00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:43.599 Yeah, it was a unique experience. 00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:49.599 So, yo, you you come from there uh like Larry Hoover and all of them, right? 00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:50.960 I met Larry Hoover. 00:36:51.199 --> 00:36:51.519 You did? 00:36:51.920 --> 00:36:52.639 What was that like? 00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:54.000 He was cool. 00:36:54.159 --> 00:37:05.840 I mean, here's what happened when I became the head of the gang unit on the west side of Chicago and Cabrini Green and West, there were two prevalent gangs, the gangster disciples and the vice lords. 00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:08.400 And they were at serious war. 00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:15.599 Now, the problem that created a lot of heat was a lot of gang members aren't good shots. 00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:20.400 They'll be running down an alley, pointing a gun behind them and shooting at the people chasing them. 00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:21.280 And guess what? 00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:23.840 A lot of people get shot that aren't part of any of this. 00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:25.920 And that's what was happening. 00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:26.320 Okay. 00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:29.760 A lot of people were getting innocent people were getting shot. 00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:35.280 So my boss at the time said to me, Why don't you see if you can talk to Larry Hoover and Willie Lloyd? 00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:39.679 Willie Lloyd ran the vice lords, Hoover was the gangster disciples. 00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:41.440 So I did. 00:37:41.599 --> 00:37:43.840 So I went to prison, met him. 00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:44.880 He was cool. 00:37:45.039 --> 00:37:47.039 I said, Man, you know, here that's what I said to him. 00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:53.280 I said, you know, I'm out here trying to get things under control and get the bad guys off the street and the killers. 00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:54.559 I said, but you know what? 00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:56.239 You have more control than me. 00:37:56.559 --> 00:37:57.840 You and Willie Lloyd do. 00:37:57.920 --> 00:38:05.119 I said, because you could tell these people to cool a little bit and quit shooting people innocently and be a little at least be controlled the way you approach. 00:38:05.199 --> 00:38:06.719 You're supposed to be a community group. 00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:07.679 That's how they, you know. 00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:10.719 And he said, okay, man, I'll see what I could do. 00:38:10.880 --> 00:38:12.239 I went, well, Liddy Lloyd. 00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:14.719 And you know, for nine months the crime went down. 00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:16.559 And it erupted again. 00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:18.159 But I mean, it worked. 00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:22.559 I mean, it's just because nobody's willing to approach people as people, you know. 00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:26.320 He was Larry Hoover, and I knew I knew who he was. 00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:28.480 I mean, he was he ran it from the prison. 00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:29.920 I mean, there's no question about it. 00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:39.280 And because then I knew he did, and we were understood that, that he would have the ability, if he so chose, lay back here, cool it. 00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:46.159 And uh, innocent people getting murdered went down dramatically in that area of the city. 00:38:48.159 --> 00:38:55.039 Are you have you paid attention much to what goes on in the

news as far as the gang banging now? 00:38:55.199 --> 00:39:02.480 Like what's going on in the streets with the you know, King Vines and uh well, that didn't really happen in Chicago, but like the Old Block in Chicago. 00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:10.559 And all of that, when you compare the two eras, like this era versus that era, like where did it get worse? 00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:12.000 It's completely different. 00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:13.519 And I'll tell you what. 00:39:15.039 --> 00:39:20.559 The fact that I was able to talk to two men and get the violence down, that's impossible today. 00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:22.719 There's no two men running anything, see. 00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:32.320 And the reason that happened, in my opinion, when they tore down Cabrini Green and the Robert Taylor homes in Chicago, there were gang members, many living in those buildings. 00:39:32.400 --> 00:39:33.519 They controlled the buildings. 00:39:33.679 --> 00:39:35.840 But when you tear something down, where do you send the people? 00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:36.719 Where do they go now? 00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:37.679 Well, now what? 00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:38.880 What did you just do? 00:39:39.119 --> 00:39:47.760 So people that would live like in a certain building, which was a there was black disciples and black gangs, certainly, they're different, you know. 00:39:48.239 --> 00:39:55.519 They might move to their a home in the south side where the opposition gang was across the street. 00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:56.960 That's what you've got now. 00:39:57.119 --> 00:40:02.400 You've got one block, there's a gang, next block, there's a gang, all remnants of the past. 00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:09.840 Whereas when you had leaders, Jeff Ford, who was the El Rukins, he was a company, he could control what was going on. 00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:12.719 I mean, wasn't much different than the mafia one time. 00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:21.760 I mean, and when you it's funny though, when you when you break these things apart, you've got these little satellites, and they're there's no control. 00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:33.039 I mean, I I don't I I'm not certain, but I think that more communicating with the leadership at the time would have worked better than the way they did it. 00:40:33.360 --> 00:40:34.480 That's just my opinion. 00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:38.400 How was it with the mafia back then, too? 00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:49.599 Um drug dealing in Chicago or the drug distribution, distribution at the time, they didn't have very much power. 00:40:49.679 --> 00:40:57.599 I mean, they had some, but I mean it was I mean, when you get the Al Rukans and these gangs, they're in charge. 00:40:57.760 --> 00:40:58.639 They took over. 00:40:58.719 --> 00:40:59.920 I mean, they really control. 00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:06.079 I mean, they're they might the mafia might have some in-roads with what's going on in Colombia or wherever it's coming from. 00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:09.840 But as far as no, they they they

they took over. 00:41:10.079 --> 00:41:12.239 I mean, that's who was running it for sure. 00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:14.480 At least uh at least as far as we knew. 00:41:14.800 --> 00:41:18.880 Yeah, can you get into the the royal family or yeah, royal family? 00:41:19.039 --> 00:41:19.280 Yeah. 00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:21.199 Oh, you heard of royal family? 00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:23.119 You heard of royal family? 00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:26.800 Yeah, yeah, that one and then, because I do my research ahead of time as well. 00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:29.920 Um the royal family, and then I believe it was Murray. 00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:31.199 Murray Hooper. 00:41:31.519 --> 00:41:33.119 Hooper, yeah. 00:41:33.440 --> 00:41:35.679 Um, it was definitely the royal family. 00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:38.639 That was the biggest case I've ever tried before since. 00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:39.760 Okay, what do you think? 00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:46.159 And the royal family, uh, the tribune wrote an article about them, full page. 00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:50.960 The leader's name was Roger Connors, Coachese, also known as the Chief. 00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:55.039 They were like between, say, 35 and 40. 00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:56.239 They weren't kids. 00:41:56.400 --> 00:42:01.199 They had all been members of various gangs and they had served a lot of time in prison, many, many years. 00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:06.880 And while they were in prison, they met some members of the Chicago mob. 00:42:07.519 --> 00:42:18.079 And the plan was put together that they, when they got out, they would form their own organization and become a professional hit squad across the country for the mob. 00:42:18.320 --> 00:42:19.760 And why would they do that? 00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:20.960 Money. 00:42:21.440 --> 00:42:25.360 But no one would ever link these black guys to the Italian mob. 00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:28.159 You never heard of such, they would think you never heard of this. 00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:30.639 They thought it through. 00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:32.239 And so that's what they became. 00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:42.239 They became not only did they control drug traffic and the drug dealers, they also, on different times of the day or week, they go out and commit hits across the country. 00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:50.400 And the newspaper did a story, and the headline was The Royal Family Are the Kings of Killing. 00:42:50.639 --> 00:42:59.920 So my next book is called Pursuing Kings, because that was a case that got dropped in my lap the first day I became chief of gang prosecutions. 00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:02.320 It's the biggest case ever to this day. 00:43:02.480 --> 00:43:06.000 No case has ever been bigger than that one, as far as except for John Wayne Casey. 00:43:06.159 --> 00:43:10.880 I mean, these guys were responsible for well over a hundred executions or whatever. 00:43:11.039 --> 00:43:13.119 And it was it was a business. 00:43:13.360 --> 00:43:18.079 Uh they knew it well, and they messed up

on one case pretty bad. 00:43:18.559 --> 00:43:19.599 They got caught. 00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:23.119 So uh it wasn't fun going after them. 00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:26.320 We had a flipper who was a driver on a triple. 00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:30.000 These guys were shotgun, gang, uh, drug dealer. 00:43:30.239 --> 00:43:34.960 And uh the flipper, I turned them into a witness for us. 00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:38.159 They tried to kill him in the witness protection. 00:43:38.719 --> 00:43:40.159 That's how much power they had. 00:43:40.239 --> 00:43:41.360 Because they had mob power. 00:43:41.519 --> 00:43:50.000 See, because they were so mobbed up too, in a way, the mob wanted to protect them also because that was their their they were doing a good job for them, you know. 00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:56.079 And then they went and did a double murder in Arizona my contract, and that was their undoing. 00:43:56.719 --> 00:43:59.760 That in that particular case, they were trying to. 00:44:01.199 --> 00:44:06.400 The mob in Chicago, Joe Ferriola and some other names were listed as possible. 00:44:06.639 --> 00:44:11.679 They were relatives of one of the guys in Arizona that contracted the royal family. 00:44:12.559 --> 00:44:25.119 They went to this house and they were going to take out the owner of the household because he owned a printing company that the mob wanted to buy so they could start printing chips and counterfeit money to go to Las Vegas, which is pretty close, you know. 00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:28.880 And he and his partner, his partner was all for selling, but not him. 00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:30.719 So he said, we'll take him out. 00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:32.000 So they go out to do it. 00:44:32.079 --> 00:44:38.400 Now there's three of them: a Phoenix police officer and Murray Hooper and William Bracey, members of the royal family. 00:44:38.559 --> 00:44:41.679 They show up in New Year's Eve at these people's houses about 8 o'clock. 00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:54.400 They go get in, they tie everybody up, put them on a bed, put stocks in their pocket, in their mouth, tape, duct tape them, hogtime, and then they shoot the man twice in the head, so his throat. 00:44:55.519 --> 00:44:58.880 His wife's mother was in town from Iowa visiting. 00:44:59.039 --> 00:45:00.079 She was 72. 00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:01.840 They shot her twice in the head. 00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:13.920 He shot the wife in the back of the head, but it didn't transverse up. 00:45:14.079 --> 00:45:15.679 It transfers down. 00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:16.320 Mr. 00:45:16.719 --> 00:45:19.199 Carotid Artery, I mean, this is a miracle. 00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:19.760 Mr. 00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:23.039 Spinal cord, they left. 00:45:23.840 --> 00:45:25.360 She comes too. 00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:28.480 She's drowning on her own blood because of the sock. 00:45:28.559 --> 00:45:32.719 But there was so much blood on it, she pushed her tongue and able to get the blood to come out. 00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:40.800 The

woman had the wherewithal being shot in the neck to roll off the bed down the hallway, all duct tape. 00:45:41.039 --> 00:45:44.159 The people that were coming to their New Year's Eve party are pounding on the door. 00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:45.519 Nobody's answering. 00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:48.159 They look and they see her on the floor. 00:45:49.119 --> 00:45:50.559 She survives. 00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:53.760 And more than that, they didn't wear masks. 00:45:54.480 --> 00:46:00.880 One thing I tell people if somebody's in there robbing your house at a home invasion, not wearing masks, the odds are pretty good you're probably going to get killed. 00:46:01.119 --> 00:46:04.480 Because if they're not hiding their identity, they don't want to leave witnesses. 00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:06.559 They screwed up in that one. 00:46:06.880 --> 00:46:09.280 She was able to ID them eventually. 00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:12.480 Which pretty turned it, they turned the case. 00:46:12.639 --> 00:46:14.880 And then there was the flipper in Chicago. 00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:17.280 There was a young woman named Laverne Lyle. 00:46:17.440 --> 00:46:19.440 She was 19 years old when I met her. 00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:22.719 She had already had five children, which is sad. 00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:24.639 I mean, you know, living by herself. 00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:25.440 Yeah. 00:46:26.480 --> 00:46:30.079 And she had seen the night of a triple murder in Chicago. 00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:36.559 She had seen the royal family guys leading three men that were tied, hands tied behind their back, and get into a car. 00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:42.000 She had seen the R flipper, the witness who was the driver, and the three gang members. 00:46:42.320 --> 00:46:47.039 And after this all went down, she had anonymously called the police. 00:46:47.440 --> 00:46:50.400 She says, I gotta, I gotta get my kids out of this neighborhood. 00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:52.320 I mean, I I gotta tell you something. 00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:55.199 I have but you gotta promise me I can move. 00:46:56.559 --> 00:46:59.280 So I talked to her and we move her. 00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:02.320 We move her witness witness protection program. 00:47:02.719 --> 00:47:04.320 She testified she saw him leading. 00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:08.400 We don't have anybody except for the driver, the car, the flipper. 00:47:08.559 --> 00:47:11.440 So you know, flipper, take change of sides, yeah. 00:47:11.599 --> 00:47:12.800 That's what it is. 00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:18.559 Um, he he's the only person that actually could testify that they did it. 00:47:19.360 --> 00:47:21.039 So we put him in witness protection. 00:47:21.199 --> 00:47:23.119 They tried to, he got almost got killed in that. 00:47:23.679 --> 00:47:26.320 That we had to move him to Fredville Witness Protection. 00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:29.840 So it was uh never a dull moment. 00:47:29.920 --> 00:47:36.239 And I'm back and forth to Arizona with this the woman that survived came to Chicago, ID'd them as the ones in Phoenix. 00:47:36.320 --> 00:47:52.159 I mean, it was a it was uh pretty scary and pretty the witnesses are like the the the flipper the the I the guy that was our on our turn side, gotcha, his name was Morris Nellum, M-O-R. 00:47:52.639 --> 00:47:55.360 He had a twin brother named Norris Nellum. 00:47:55.679 --> 00:47:58.480 Now, Norris was a member of the royal family. 00:47:59.519 --> 00:48:07.199 And so Morris, who was born like two minutes later, he was known as twin, you know, on the street. 00:48:07.519 --> 00:48:09.920 He wasn't because Norris was the cool guy. 00:48:10.159 --> 00:48:17.440 Well, we had to move Norris out of Illinois to another prison in another state because they would have taken we had to move his family in Texas. 00:48:17.599 --> 00:48:22.559 Everybody had to be relocated because they definitely would have taken somebody out, his girlfriend. 00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:25.119 So that was another thing, just dealing with that. 00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:26.719 You know, we're not the feds. 00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:30.480 The feds, we don't do this, but we had to learn real quick. 00:48:30.719 --> 00:48:32.159 The feds weren't gonna help us. 00:48:32.239 --> 00:48:34.960 It's funny how they don't get involved when they don't want to. 00:48:35.119 --> 00:48:38.480 Except for eventually they did when we banged almost. 00:48:38.719 --> 00:48:43.119 This guy's gonna get killed if we don't, we we can't protect them that way that you guys can. 00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:45.840 So that was that was pretty bad. 00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:50.960 They all they were all tried and all sentenced to the death to death. 00:48:51.280 --> 00:48:53.199 All of them, both cases. 00:48:54.239 --> 00:48:58.320 You don't be scared in these moments when you're doing this? 00:48:58.559 --> 00:49:05.599 Well, yeah, no, I mean, first of all, it's unlike some countries, usually you don't kill the prosecutor. 00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:07.119 No, I had it happen to me. 00:49:07.280 --> 00:49:09.760 I did have somebody put a legitimate hit on me. 00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:18.239 They stole the service air missile out of an Army Reserve base thing, and they're gonna blow up my house and kill my wife at the time and baby. 00:49:18.480 --> 00:49:24.880 So, I mean, that sort of shook me up because they recovered that missile and the launcher. 00:49:25.199 --> 00:49:36.800 So it was it wasn't just and that was testified to in a courtroom by a witness that was present when this kind of they had my address, knew where I lived. 00:49:37.679 --> 00:49:41.360 My wife and my child had to go live in San Diego for six months. 00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:44.719 I'm holed up with the police in a hotel, which I hated. 00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:46.639 That sucked. 00:49:46.960 --> 00:49:51.760 But you know, it it's like it's like you're in war, you know. 00:49:51.840 --> 00:49:56.880 I mean, my boss from Daly had said we're this is we declared war on gangs.

00:49:56.960 --> 00:50:01.840 Well, what you don't realize when you say those kind of things, the other side goes, oh, really? 00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:03.119 You declare war on us? 00:50:03.199 --> 00:50:03.920 Well, guess what? 00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:06.159 It's a war, then we're gonna fight it like a war. 00:50:06.320 --> 00:50:07.119 That was a mistake. 00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:08.559 He shouldn't have said that. 00:50:08.800 --> 00:50:10.159 Um sorry, Rich. 00:50:10.559 --> 00:50:14.400 Uh that wasn't a good way to approach what we were doing. 00:50:14.800 --> 00:50:16.400 And every there was posters everywhere. 00:50:16.559 --> 00:50:18.000 War on grand gangs. 00:50:18.079 --> 00:50:19.360 He said, Are you just a sheep? 00:50:19.440 --> 00:50:20.320 Are you a follower? 00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:24.320 I mean, really clastic comments, and they were printed in all the high schools. 00:50:24.639 --> 00:50:29.280 So um, yeah, it wasn't uh it wasn't the way, you know. 00:50:29.360 --> 00:50:33.519 I I I'm just taking orders, and you know, okay, that's what you're doing. 00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:40.719 So, yeah, that way I had three legitimate contracts put on me. 00:50:41.119 --> 00:50:43.679 And I'd never had I never dealt with that. 00:50:44.320 --> 00:50:46.639 You know, I didn't think you kill a prosecutor. 00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:48.079 I guess you they tried. 00:50:48.960 --> 00:50:50.400 They took it, took it serious. 00:50:50.960 --> 00:50:54.559 Contract was if you don't kill him, kill his wife and baby. 00:50:54.639 --> 00:50:55.039 Yeah. 00:50:55.280 --> 00:51:01.920 And so he happened to be the the uh leader of this gang, it was a Latin gang, Spanish Cobras. 00:51:02.480 --> 00:51:10.079 He had been in a hospital because he was having a problem in prison, uh-huh and he was laying in the bed next to an armed robber who had a problem. 00:51:10.320 --> 00:51:17.360 Well, that for some reason the prison officials let this guy's gang of members in to his hospital room next to this guy. 00:51:17.519 --> 00:51:23.519 And he heard the guy, the guy next door heard him planning this hit and break detail. 00:51:24.079 --> 00:51:28.079 So he contacted the authorities when he got out of the hospital. 00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:35.599 And quote unquote, when he talked to me, he goes, Man, I didn't give a shit if they kill your ass, but that ain't white killing your wife and baby. 00:51:35.920 --> 00:51:37.039 That's exactly how he said it. 00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:39.039 I don't give a shit if they kill your ass. 00:51:39.199 --> 00:51:40.000 I mean, that's what he said. 00:51:40.079 --> 00:51:40.559 I don't care. 00:51:40.719 --> 00:51:41.840 I mean, yeah, yeah. 00:51:42.320 --> 00:51:44.719 That's your problem, but not your wife and baby. 00:51:45.039 --> 00:51:47.199 Which I thought was pretty honorable, to be honest with you. 00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:50.079 I mean, I mean, that tells you something, you know. 00:51:50.400 --> 00:51:53.920 And he testified in court, there's newspaper stories about it, right? 00:51:54.079 --> 00:51:55.599 Just said it just like that. 00:51:55.920 --> 00:51:58.800 Well, what was your wife's reaction to towards you, though? 00:51:59.039 --> 00:52:00.800 Was she like, hey bro, you gotta get up out there? 00:52:00.960 --> 00:52:01.199 I don't know. 00:52:01.360 --> 00:52:02.800 She was pretty strong, you know. 00:52:03.039 --> 00:52:08.079 Um, they moved out winter's protection in California for a few months. 00:52:08.320 --> 00:52:10.559 Um, but I don't know. 00:52:10.639 --> 00:52:12.239 I mean, she took it better than I thought. 00:52:12.320 --> 00:52:13.440 We changed her name. 00:52:13.519 --> 00:52:17.440 There, I I gave her it, we gave her a different last name than mine. 00:52:17.679 --> 00:52:21.599 And everything would that any utilities were not in her my name. 00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:28.320 Like my son to this day doesn't have a social media account because he got the same name as me. 00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:31.360 He wanted somebody to get confused. 00:52:32.559 --> 00:52:34.559 I'm not concerned about it any longer. 00:52:34.719 --> 00:52:35.119 Yeah. 00:52:35.280 --> 00:52:44.400 I mean, you know, I as old as I am, almost everybody I prosecute is is it was as old if not older, and they're gone. 00:52:44.559 --> 00:52:48.719 Or I just don't think I mean here's the thing: we weren't framing people. 00:52:48.880 --> 00:52:52.000 I mean, when you frame people, then somebody's got to reason to come back at you. 00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:57.840 When you're doing what they know they did wrong, eventually they'd get over you. 00:52:58.159 --> 00:53:00.239 Because it's not like you made it up. 00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:04.239 You make it up, you may be making your own bed too. 00:53:05.119 --> 00:53:06.320 That's a different story. 00:53:06.559 --> 00:53:16.480 So I think when you when you can live your life knowing you did that you did the right thing and you did not cross that line, I don't I don't worry about it. 00:53:17.199 --> 00:53:18.159 I really don't. 00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:39.920 And when you talk about corruption in that system, what's the the the worst way you've seen something tried or well I sat in a courtroom as a judge, uh, first of all, in the criminal court system, as some people can tell you, if a defendant takes a bench trial, that's a little weird. 00:53:40.239 --> 00:53:43.440 Because judges, no bullshit. 00:53:43.679 --> 00:53:49.360 You can't you can't pull the wool normally, unless the judge is corrupt, over a judge's eyes, right? 00:53:49.519 --> 00:53:53.360 They they see what's, you know, juries you can play with a little bit, but not judge. 00:53:53.679 --> 00:54:00.639 So when a defendant takes a bench trial, you're like, hmm, well, it's a little weird. 00:54:00.719 --> 00:54:03.119 Well, in this case, I was a witness to it. 00:54:03.199 --> 00:54:05.280 I was there, I was just in the courtroom. 00:54:05.440 --> 00:54:08.000 Uh, there was a

hitman named Harry Aylman. 00:54:08.480 --> 00:54:11.280 He was the number one hitman for the mob at the time. 00:54:11.519 --> 00:54:13.039 Number one guy. 00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:20.800 He had killed a um a union, the head of a union that they uh shot him right outside his house in the morning. 00:54:20.880 --> 00:54:26.239 There were two eyewitnesses who weren't were just one guy was walking his dog and somebody was out get getting their milk. 00:54:26.320 --> 00:54:29.840 We used to deliver your milk by your porch, getting their milk. 00:54:30.079 --> 00:54:31.760 They saw the whole thing. 00:54:32.159 --> 00:54:33.679 They told the police. 00:54:34.400 --> 00:54:35.840 They testified. 00:54:36.159 --> 00:54:38.000 But he took a bench trial. 00:54:38.880 --> 00:54:41.599 And the judge got up there and said, Not guilty. 00:54:42.719 --> 00:54:44.960 We're like, not guilty. 00:54:45.679 --> 00:54:50.000 Then we found out later the judge took 10 grand and he eventually shot himself. 00:54:50.559 --> 00:54:53.920 Committed suicide when the Feds were just about to get him. 00:54:55.199 --> 00:54:55.920 It came out. 00:54:56.079 --> 00:54:58.960 You know, normally when you have a not guilty, that's jeopardy, right? 00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:08.800 Uh the first time I think in history that a person found not guilty, the courts ruled, no, we could try him again because it would the first one wasn't legit. 00:55:08.960 --> 00:55:09.119 Okay. 00:55:09.360 --> 00:55:12.159 They proved, they basically proved the judge took money. 00:55:12.239 --> 00:55:14.000 They had the guy that paid him. 00:55:14.159 --> 00:55:15.519 So they retried him. 00:55:15.760 --> 00:55:16.639 He got life. 00:55:17.119 --> 00:55:19.119 Same, but years later. 00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:21.679 I think 15 years later. 00:55:22.639 --> 00:55:27.360 So that was pretty raunchy corruption that we all knew. 00:55:27.679 --> 00:55:34.400 Is that what ultimately like uh made you get away from prosecuting? 00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:40.800 Well I didn't, I never encountered, and I'm not taking sides here. 00:55:40.880 --> 00:55:44.480 I never encountered at the time a corrupt prosecutor. 00:55:44.719 --> 00:55:47.760 Well, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying whether there was or wasn't. 00:55:47.920 --> 00:55:52.639 I never, and I honestly can say that because a good boy, never once. 00:55:52.880 --> 00:55:57.920 So no, I I got out of it because for the first reason was because you can't make a living. 00:55:58.239 --> 00:55:58.880 And not then. 00:55:58.960 --> 00:56:00.559 It was the pay was so bad. 00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:03.280 I mean, it was the greatest experience on earth. 00:56:03.360 --> 00:56:10.400 I mean, I tried 64 felony jury trials, 62 or murders by the age of 33. 00:56:10.800 --> 00:56:13.360 That's pretty good, that's a lot of experience, quickly. 00:56:13.920 --> 00:56:18.639 So usually the only path was go to become a criminal defense attorney, which I did for a while. 00:56:18.719 --> 00:56:19.599 I just didn't like it. 00:56:19.679 --> 00:56:23.599 I I just I never wanted to be a lawyer anyway. 00:56:23.679 --> 00:56:28.320 I mean, the prosecution was just I thought we were doing the right thing and I was speaking for victims, you know. 00:56:28.480 --> 00:56:33.119 I mean, if I had just run around doing chocolate cases all day, I would have left a lot sooner than that. 00:56:33.280 --> 00:56:36.559 But this was something I felt made a difference, you know, in it. 00:56:36.719 --> 00:56:42.400 And we were do we we we we weren't framing people and making up evidence and hiding evidence. 00:56:42.639 --> 00:56:44.559 I couldn't live with myself if I did that. 00:56:44.639 --> 00:56:51.840 I mean, we represent supposedly justice, and that's a nice word to use, but in my case, we really did think that way. 00:56:52.400 --> 00:57:00.480 So um I got back in the music business, and then I got back into some other unrelated businesses and did very well. 00:57:00.719 --> 00:57:12.239 So I never um I I enjoy watching sometimes these live TV shows, uh movies on uh not movies, um trials on TV. 00:57:12.400 --> 00:57:18.079 Uh and I I only watch them to see the skill of the attorneys, the attitude of a judge. 00:57:18.320 --> 00:57:21.760 But you know, sometimes they're really good, sometimes they really suck. 00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:23.599 So it just depends on the case. 00:57:23.760 --> 00:57:24.320 Yeah. 00:57:25.760 --> 00:57:28.239 Mentally, do that get overwhelming though? 00:57:28.400 --> 00:57:31.599 The the the amount of murders you gotta do. 00:57:31.679 --> 00:57:40.239 I tell I I'll tell you when it when it really uh first time it hit me round about, um, I was having lunch. 00:57:40.480 --> 00:57:42.400 I had been doing these for like eight years. 00:57:42.480 --> 00:57:45.840 I was running the gang unit, you know, and tried all these murder cases. 00:57:45.920 --> 00:57:53.440 And I was going over a case, and there was pictures of a a young woman and her and her friend who had been shot by a rival gang. 00:57:53.599 --> 00:57:56.800 They weren't gang members, and part of her head was missing, you know. 00:57:57.039 --> 00:58:04.320 And I'm looking for clues at the crime scene where she was to help maybe sometimes you find things in pictures. 00:58:04.559 --> 00:58:06.239 It's hard to, you know, the angles. 00:58:06.800 --> 00:58:10.960 And I was having lunch in the lunchroom where the courthouse was. 00:58:11.199 --> 00:58:19.920 And I'm sitting right here, and I got my file, and I got these pictures, and I ordered some food, you know, and I'm just God, they're eight by ten color right here. 00:58:20.480 --> 00:58:24.639 Woman walks up and screams and drops the plate of food on the floor. 00:58:24.960 --> 00:58:30.159 She's like, Oh my god, I can't believe you're looking at that while you're having a lunch. 00:58:31.119 --> 00:58:33.920 And I'm like, Oh, really? 00:58:34.880 --> 00:58:36.159 Didn't even affect me.

00:58:36.400 --> 00:58:40.880 See, I mean, I would look at gore and I only looked at it as evidence. 00:58:41.599 --> 00:58:47.119 I mean, I I would think about the people, but at that moment, that was evidence, you know. 00:58:47.360 --> 00:58:52.719 And that's what struck me like you've lost your uh you've lost your sensitivity to everything. 00:58:52.960 --> 00:59:02.320 I mean, I mean, it made me think maybe you should do something different for a while because I mean I was hardcore too, you know. 00:59:03.119 --> 00:59:07.840 So even like death in your family and stuff, it really didn't get to you at that. 00:59:08.960 --> 00:59:17.599 Well, I was um I would come, I would come home and I'd still have cases on my mind, you know what I mean? 00:59:17.679 --> 00:59:24.719 And I'd I know their mother would say I would pace downstairs at night, you know, thinking about cases. 00:59:25.119 --> 00:59:32.639 And the more I did that, the more I I I don't want to say I was losing sense of reality, I was losing a sense of humanity. 00:59:33.199 --> 00:59:41.039 Because it was just give the victims a voice, get the bad guy, you know, and how are we gonna do it? 00:59:41.199 --> 00:59:43.840 And I'm gonna do everything I can to do it. 00:59:43.920 --> 00:59:45.599 And so I became obsessed with it. 00:59:45.760 --> 00:59:48.000 I mean, it was like I was a crusader, you know. 00:59:48.480 --> 00:59:50.079 And you can't do that. 00:59:50.719 --> 00:59:55.840 You get too deep, you lose your objectivity, and that's bad too. 00:59:56.320 --> 01:00:02.559 So, and I think I I I still had it, but I'm pretty sure I got out at the right time. 01:00:03.840 --> 01:00:07.119 I wonder how how'd you look at the Menendez brother trip? 01:00:08.400 --> 01:00:09.440 In what respect? 01:00:09.519 --> 01:00:12.000 And I I thought it was a joke. 01:00:12.320 --> 01:00:19.519 I said, like I I've told my daughter, I said, you know, you can make all you want about dad abused them, so they shot that. 01:00:19.760 --> 01:00:20.800 Why'd they shoot mom? 01:00:22.239 --> 01:00:23.679 What's the excuse for shooting mom? 01:00:23.920 --> 01:00:26.239 Oh, because she didn't want to live without her husband? 01:00:26.400 --> 01:00:28.639 That's an excuse to kill him or her. 01:00:28.880 --> 01:00:33.760 I think if they wouldn't have killed her, they would have had a better shot at their defense. 01:00:34.400 --> 01:00:36.000 Yeah, mom takes it off the table. 01:00:36.079 --> 01:00:36.960 You don't have a defense. 01:00:37.199 --> 01:00:40.400 You can do what you think about dad, no reason to shoot mom. 01:00:40.880 --> 01:00:41.039 Okay. 01:00:41.519 --> 01:00:42.320 That's what I thought. 01:00:42.559 --> 01:00:49.039 Uh that that just randomly popped in my head to remember some of the details of uh John Wayne Gacy. 01:00:49.440 --> 01:00:49.760 Yeah. 01:00:50.239 --> 01:00:51.679 Uh very well. 01:00:52.960 --> 01:00:53.519 Very, very well. 01:00:53.599 --> 01:01:04.559 I was at a, it

was uh, I think Chris just before Christmas, 1978, I was at it, we were having a uh 26th Street prosecutor dinner, like you know, for for Christmas. 01:01:04.800 --> 01:01:09.440 And I my boss was in Bill Kunkel, who became the prosecutor of John Gacy. 01:01:09.760 --> 01:01:14.960 And he was sitting next to me, and we were sitting there, and all of a sudden somebody comes up to me and says, uh, Mr. 01:01:15.039 --> 01:01:17.039 Kunkel, you got a phone call. 01:01:17.360 --> 01:01:18.400 So he leaves, you know. 01:01:18.480 --> 01:01:20.320 He was a soup, he was a boss, you know. 01:01:20.559 --> 01:01:23.599 He comes back and he, you know, this guy liked food. 01:01:23.679 --> 01:01:25.519 I mean, this man loved food. 01:01:26.000 --> 01:01:27.840 And he didn't hardly eat anything. 01:01:28.000 --> 01:01:30.079 So he says, I gotta go. 01:01:30.159 --> 01:01:30.800 I go, what's up? 01:01:30.960 --> 01:01:33.119 He goes, they found a bunch of bodies in a basement. 01:01:33.199 --> 01:01:34.800 That's all I heard at the time. 01:01:35.039 --> 01:01:36.320 I'm like, what? 01:01:37.360 --> 01:01:42.320 And I eventually went into the house after they tore the floor up back in the day. 01:01:42.880 --> 01:01:47.119 I was there in Somerdale, suburbs of Chicago. 01:01:47.440 --> 01:01:54.159 And during the course of that case, um, I was very close to Bill Conko, very close. 01:01:54.320 --> 01:02:00.000 Um, I walked into court one day when the jury was out of the courtroom, and I just wanted to drop a message off to him. 01:02:00.159 --> 01:02:06.559 And Casey was sitting in a chair, like maybe a little closer than you are, and you could feel evil. 01:02:06.800 --> 01:02:08.400 I never felt evil before. 01:02:08.559 --> 01:02:09.360 I felt evil. 01:02:09.440 --> 01:02:13.519 I mean, this this guy was frightening just to be a the aura was there. 01:02:13.679 --> 01:02:17.760 You could just feel this horrible, and it radiated. 01:02:18.159 --> 01:02:23.519 And I was young, blonde haired, you know, and he's like, smiled at me. 01:02:23.599 --> 01:02:25.599 I said, Oh, I almost threw up. 01:02:25.920 --> 01:02:29.599 Like he's smirking at me as I'm talking to my boss. 01:02:30.960 --> 01:02:31.440 Evil. 01:02:32.079 --> 01:02:33.280 That was scary. 01:02:33.679 --> 01:02:35.599 Never went back in that corner today. 01:02:36.320 --> 01:02:38.800 Not even the way I just couldn't be around the guy. 01:02:38.880 --> 01:02:39.119 Yeah. 01:02:39.280 --> 01:02:40.800 And most people felt that way about. 01:02:41.599 --> 01:02:42.960 It was a terrible feeling. 01:02:43.280 --> 01:02:47.599 Was it something you had to do to get just just in case you ran into something like that again? 01:02:47.679 --> 01:02:51.360 Did you have to prep yourself to be able to Yeah? 01:02:51.519 --> 01:02:54.719 I mean, Roger Collins, the leader of the royal family. 01:02:55.440 --> 01:03:06.079 He was like, he was so cool, he was suave, he was smart, he was calculated, but he was pure

evil. 01:03:07.039 --> 01:03:09.599 But he was like, he was a gentleman. 01:03:11.760 --> 01:03:12.559 Good morning, Mr. 01:03:12.719 --> 01:03:13.360 Owen. 01:03:13.679 --> 01:03:17.119 And I know that guy would take me out and shoot me in one second. 01:03:17.679 --> 01:03:24.800 One time during the course of the trial, I had gone to the lockup to talk to some other person, and he was there. 01:03:25.360 --> 01:03:29.440 I had never heard the expression before, so maybe I was stupid. 01:03:30.079 --> 01:03:32.559 He goes, Hey, Mr. 01:03:32.719 --> 01:03:33.280 Owen. 01:03:33.840 --> 01:03:35.360 This guy was built too. 01:03:35.440 --> 01:03:38.880 He was like rocky, but a lot taller, in perfect condition. 01:03:39.599 --> 01:03:41.840 He's I walk along, I said, Hey, what's that, Roger? 01:03:42.000 --> 01:03:48.480 He says, You keep fucking with us, and we may put some red rum on your ass. 01:03:49.840 --> 01:03:50.559 What does that mean? 01:03:51.199 --> 01:03:52.079 Red rum. 01:03:52.880 --> 01:03:54.239 It's murder, you know. 01:03:54.400 --> 01:03:55.440 I didn't know what it meant. 01:03:55.920 --> 01:03:58.719 I go and tell somebody go, what the fuck is Calentworth? 01:03:58.960 --> 01:04:00.480 Red rum on my ass. 01:04:01.920 --> 01:04:03.440 That wasn't fun, man. 01:04:03.599 --> 01:04:06.000 When I realized what he said, I'm like, ooh. 01:04:07.920 --> 01:04:08.559 Yeah. 01:04:09.440 --> 01:04:09.840 Yeah. 01:04:10.000 --> 01:04:12.880 That was that was a little eye-opening. 01:04:13.039 --> 01:04:26.880 It gotta be like something to be the man in the streets, run the streets, even run, run a lot of the people in law and stuff, and then lose to a blonde-haired ex-rock star. 01:04:27.519 --> 01:04:29.199 Blonde or blue eyed, too. 01:04:30.719 --> 01:04:31.360 Even worse. 01:04:33.039 --> 01:04:33.519 Yeah. 01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:37.199 Man, are you kidding me? 01:04:37.599 --> 01:04:42.079 Murdering people and like still like a sore thumb down there, man. 01:04:42.960 --> 01:04:46.159 He just he said it as calm as he could, too. 01:04:46.320 --> 01:04:48.000 He just leaned like this ego. 01:04:48.400 --> 01:04:52.719 He said, he says that, hey, Miss Downey, you keep fucking with us the way you are. 01:04:52.880 --> 01:04:55.199 We might put some red rum on your ass. 01:04:56.079 --> 01:04:58.559 I'm thinking, was they gonna pour something in my ass or something? 01:04:58.639 --> 01:04:59.679 Some red rum or something. 01:04:59.920 --> 01:05:01.599 I mean, that's how stupid I was. 01:05:02.400 --> 01:05:04.400 So I went outside and said, hey man, he put. 01:05:07.519 --> 01:05:09.519 I didn't say anything to nobody. 01:05:09.599 --> 01:05:12.079 I mean, you know, that's being an asshole too. 01:05:12.320 --> 01:05:13.519 So it's what he said, fine. 01:05:13.599 --> 01:05:14.239 That's what he said. 01:05:14.800 --> 01:05:19.360 You didn't get yourself into any training as far as like self-defense or anything? 01:05:19.599 --> 01:05:22.000 No, I no, they yeah, yes, they did. 01:05:22.159 --> 01:05:27.119 They put me through a course in firing a handgun, you know, three weeks. 01:05:27.519 --> 01:05:29.360 So I was packing most of the time. 01:05:29.599 --> 01:05:29.920 Okay. 01:05:30.159 --> 01:05:32.719 And they gave me a special place to park in the back. 01:05:32.880 --> 01:05:34.400 But you know, guns are bullshit too. 01:05:34.480 --> 01:05:37.039 If somebody comes on, you don't have time to grab your gun. 01:05:37.280 --> 01:05:39.360 I mean, you're done. 01:05:39.760 --> 01:05:41.199 And I knew that. 01:05:41.760 --> 01:05:43.760 I had a police radio in the car. 01:05:43.920 --> 01:05:49.280 Back in those days, see, we didn't have any cell phones, no car phone, none none of that stuff. 01:05:49.599 --> 01:05:56.000 I guess it just made me I guess maybe it just made me feel better because it wouldn't have done anything if something would have happened. 01:05:56.639 --> 01:05:58.719 But yeah, they did, they trained me. 01:05:59.199 --> 01:05:59.599 Oh, yeah. 01:06:00.079 --> 01:06:01.440 One more thing before we do this. 01:06:01.920 --> 01:06:06.800 For those of us who don't know, can you explain to us the different levels of prosecution? 01:06:07.360 --> 01:06:08.000 Different levels? 01:06:08.239 --> 01:06:08.639 Yeah. 01:06:10.000 --> 01:06:16.159 Well, basically there's there's there's two types of prosecution. 01:06:16.320 --> 01:06:16.559 Okay. 01:06:17.199 --> 01:06:20.719 One's called vertical prosecution and one's called horizontal. 01:06:21.039 --> 01:06:26.400 And what it means is this in felonies, for example, a person gets arrested for a felony. 01:06:27.119 --> 01:06:35.840 At that point, like in Illinois, a prosecutor is called and he determines whether or not there's sufficient evidence to charge a felony. 01:06:36.239 --> 01:06:39.519 It's called a felony review assistant, you know, newer guys. 01:06:40.239 --> 01:06:46.159 Then after that, the case gets assigned to a bond judge who's a different state attorney. 01:06:46.559 --> 01:06:49.199 Then after the bond judge, it goes for a preliminary hearing. 01:06:50.079 --> 01:06:52.639 Different judge, a different prosecutor, different level. 01:06:53.760 --> 01:06:58.559 After the preliminary hearing, if there's probable cause, it's sent to the grand jury, the guy's indicted. 01:06:58.719 --> 01:07:01.440 Now it gets assigned to a felony trial court. 01:07:02.800 --> 01:07:07.039 And once it's there, there's usually, at least in my case, there were three prosecutors per courtroom. 01:07:07.199 --> 01:07:10.480 One was the boss, like a pilot, a co-pilot, and flight engineer. 01:07:11.519 --> 01:07:14.320 And that case would be that would be assigned in that courtroom. 01:07:14.400 --> 01:07:16.400 Now those prosecutors get rotated in and out. 01:07:17.360 --> 01:07:26.400 So the day a case gets charged, there's one, two, three, there could be six or seven different prosecutors who have that case

before they go to trial. 01:07:27.440 --> 01:07:34.000 So you're not as actually as familiar as the one in the beginning was because you weren't there. 01:07:35.119 --> 01:07:45.039 Vertical prosecution, like we had in the gang unit, the minute that crime is committed and there's arrest mate, somebody from my unit shows up and they stay with that case from beginning to end. 01:07:45.199 --> 01:07:49.440 They try the case, they do the preliminary hearing, they question the witnesses, they do everything. 01:07:50.079 --> 01:07:51.119 Far more effective. 01:07:51.599 --> 01:07:55.280 But there's not the manpower for every department to have that. 01:07:56.159 --> 01:07:57.599 But that's how we did it then. 01:07:58.400 --> 01:08:01.280 You you obviously gotta get your chops and stuff too. 01:08:01.440 --> 01:08:10.239 So uh you had to be a public defender as a at a point where you have to go to No, start right out as a prosecutor. 01:08:11.119 --> 01:08:11.280 Okay. 01:08:12.639 --> 01:08:16.479 Well you well, you start out misdemeanor court or a traffic court or something. 01:08:16.720 --> 01:08:24.560 So you you learn to try cases with stuff that, you know, if you screw it up, killers aren't gonna walk free because of a shoplifting case, right? 01:08:25.439 --> 01:08:28.000 So that's the proving ground, training ground, you know. 01:08:28.560 --> 01:08:34.079 And you try m hundreds of cases almost a day, and so you're learning to think on your feet. 01:08:34.159 --> 01:08:35.279 You gotta think quick. 01:08:35.600 --> 01:08:38.960 And if you don't, your bosses find out you're done. 01:08:39.199 --> 01:08:41.039 I mean, you gotta be able to adapt. 01:08:41.359 --> 01:08:49.039 And that's how they make a determination whether you're gonna be good in the front of a jury is how quick you react to situations that occur in the courtroom. 01:08:49.359 --> 01:08:56.239 Interestingly, we uh had an impromptu thought about you sitting down with somebody from the streets. 01:08:56.319 --> 01:08:57.199 So is that right? 01:08:57.359 --> 01:09:03.199 Yeah, so one of our YouTube favorites, our channel favorites, Akasha has came. 01:09:03.279 --> 01:09:05.760 Well, I don't know if he wants to go by Akasha or Arsenio. 01:09:06.079 --> 01:09:08.239 You know, he named after Arsenio Hall. 01:09:08.399 --> 01:09:08.880 Of course. 01:09:09.039 --> 01:09:09.439 Yes. 01:09:09.840 --> 01:09:11.119 He's named after Arsenio. 01:09:11.600 --> 01:09:11.920 Is that right? 01:09:13.199 --> 01:09:13.680 Yeah. 01:09:13.920 --> 01:09:14.960 He was one of my favorites. 01:09:15.039 --> 01:09:18.319 So I loved Arsenio Man back in the day. 01:09:18.640 --> 01:09:20.239 My name is Akasha. 01:09:20.800 --> 01:09:23.600 Uh, my birth name is Arsenio Williams. 01:09:24.079 --> 01:09:26.479 Uh I'm from Kansas City, Missouri. 01:09:26.640 --> 01:09:29.840 I'm a third-generation Avalon Gangster Crip. 01:09:30.079 --> 01:09:39.039 So what that means is my father, aunts, uncles was all first generation Crips. 01:09:39.359 --> 01:09:41.359 And then I'm the baby. 01:09:41.439 --> 01:09:43.920 So my father is the baby out of his siblings. 01:09:44.159 --> 01:09:47.840 So all of his kids are the babies of the cousins. 01:09:48.000 --> 01:09:50.560 So the second generation is my older cousins. 01:09:50.720 --> 01:09:55.600 Some of my older cousins in their 40s and 50s, and they've been gang banging since the 80s. 01:09:55.680 --> 01:10:01.600 So, and then it came to me, my little brother, and my sister was able to avoid it anyway. 01:10:01.760 --> 01:10:05.840 Like Crip, gang banging was like my birthright. 01:10:06.239 --> 01:10:13.439 Uh my mom lived in Kansas City, so I went back and forth between Kansas City and Watts from Avalon Garden Projects. 01:10:13.520 --> 01:10:14.640 That's in Watts. 01:10:14.800 --> 01:10:19.119 And if you know anything about LA, Watts has always been fucked up. 01:10:19.279 --> 01:10:22.319 It's never been a good time in Watts. 01:10:22.800 --> 01:10:24.239 Um, came a crib. 01:10:24.399 --> 01:10:26.880 I was going back and forth between Watts and Kansas City. 01:10:27.039 --> 01:10:36.720 And at the age of 16, I was charged with five first-degree murders, five armed criminal actions, two kidnappings, two disposing of bodies. 01:10:37.039 --> 01:10:40.800 And I was facing the death penalty at 16. 01:10:41.039 --> 01:10:44.079 But they eventually ended up dropping a bunch of the cases. 01:10:44.239 --> 01:10:48.479 And at 18, I was found guilty of second-degree murder, armed criminal action. 01:10:48.640 --> 01:10:50.800 I was sentenced to life in a penitentiary. 01:10:51.039 --> 01:10:52.640 I went to the penitentiary. 01:10:52.960 --> 01:10:56.880 I went, they sent me to the worst penitentiary in the state of Missouri at 18. 01:10:59.119 --> 01:11:11.680 And throughout my time in prison, I probably was one of the most aggressive and violent dudes coming from Kansas City as far as like born in the 80s. 01:11:11.840 --> 01:11:12.800 You know what I mean? 01:11:13.039 --> 01:11:19.520 I had a lot, I caught a lot of major violations, but I never caught another case because I already had a life sentence. 01:11:19.600 --> 01:11:20.960 I was never supposed to get out. 01:11:21.199 --> 01:11:27.520 But during the course of my incarceration, I started writing urban fiction books. 01:11:27.760 --> 01:11:39.119 So I wrote maybe 110 books throughout my time in jail from between 2014 and I came home in 2023. 01:11:39.199 --> 01:11:45.520 So between 2014 and roughly like 2021, 2022, I wrote 110 urban fiction books. 01:11:45.680 --> 01:11:49.039 That's not including short stories that went with the book. 01:11:49.119 --> 01:11:52.880 So altogether, I probably wrote over 250 stories. 01:11:53.279 --> 01:11:57.279 But actual full books was probably like 100 and something. 01:11:58.319 --> 01:12:11.920 And in 2021, the Missouri, Missouri passed the law where saying if you're under the age of 18 and you've been found guilty

of a crime, uh, you can't be sentenced to a life sentence. 01:12:12.000 --> 01:12:14.319 After 15 years, you'll be eligible for a parole. 01:12:14.479 --> 01:12:18.000 At this time, I'd already been locked up 20 years. 01:12:18.159 --> 01:12:20.560 I already been in penitentiary 20 years. 01:12:20.720 --> 01:12:23.600 So as soon as that law got changed, it came up. 01:12:23.840 --> 01:12:28.479 With me having a successful, I made millions selling books in prison. 01:12:28.800 --> 01:12:34.239 Uh so with me already having the success of the books, y'all have to let me go. 01:12:34.319 --> 01:12:42.000 Like, like, so I basically made a complete 180 from being one of the most violent dudes on the streets, one of the most violent dudes in jail. 01:12:42.159 --> 01:12:53.359 So I basically like did my own therapy via writing the books, and that converted over to them changing the law, and I came home a year later. 01:12:53.600 --> 01:13:00.239 And since I've been home within the past three years, I came home January 19, 2023. 01:13:00.479 --> 01:13:05.039 So I came home, I went to Arkansas just to deinstitutionalize and get myself together. 01:13:05.119 --> 01:13:12.640 And between like September of 2023 and to now, I done filmed, I'm a film producer now. 01:13:12.960 --> 01:13:24.079 Uh I probably done filmed eight or nine movies that I executive produced, and I've been on set for probably like 20, 25 movies that I'm just like a producer on. 01:13:24.960 --> 01:13:41.840 And uh I done really kind of like brought the indie film game to Kansas City and it's been out here shooting movies, but for like uh years I was just traveling, going places, learning movie thing, going across the country, shooting movies. 01:13:41.920 --> 01:13:48.239 And then I brought all of that back to Kansas City, and that's what I've been doing since I came home in 2023. 01:13:49.039 --> 01:13:51.439 I mean, that that's absolutely mind-boggling. 01:13:51.520 --> 01:13:52.960 And I'm not saying it because you're here. 01:13:53.119 --> 01:13:59.039 I'm just telling you the fact that I visited plenty of prisons in my experience as a prosecutor. 01:13:59.279 --> 01:14:01.439 Not somewhere I'd want to spend an hour. 01:14:02.159 --> 01:14:10.640 I had a case where I had to go visit somebody in prison, and um, they went through a it was a prosecutor, went through an intensive search, as you know. 01:14:11.520 --> 01:14:19.520 They put me in a cell as as opposed to a visiting area, and they closed the door and it freaked me out immediately, like I can't get out of here. 01:14:19.840 --> 01:14:21.039 This door is locked. 01:14:21.439 --> 01:14:25.600 I never it never hit me as hard as when it went clang. 01:14:26.479 --> 01:14:31.119 And it and I went through I said, Hey man, the door's locked. 01:14:31.600 --> 01:14:32.560 You'll be fine. 01:14:33.199 --> 01:14:34.159 I wasn't fine. 01:14:34.720 --> 01:14:44.159 So I can't even begin to imagine in any way, and nobody can, unless you've been through this, and and the fact that you came out the other side. 01:14:46.640 --> 01:14:48.720 I mean I'm dumbfounded. 01:14:48.800 --> 01:14:55.600 I mean, I I wish I'd have known about you sooner because what a voice you have for rehabilitation, number one. 01:14:56.319 --> 01:14:57.680 For giving people hope. 01:14:58.000 --> 01:15:04.239 I mean, as you know in the community where you're from, one thing that's devoid for most people is hope. 01:15:04.800 --> 01:15:06.000 What do they have to look forward to? 01:15:06.399 --> 01:15:07.039 Where are you going? 01:15:07.279 --> 01:15:08.319 Who are your idols? 01:15:08.479 --> 01:15:11.359 You know, I mean, who who are your leaders? 01:15:11.600 --> 01:15:20.479 See, you represent uh honestly one of the more the most strongest leaders for people who think they want to go the other direction. 01:15:20.960 --> 01:15:22.399 That's a big thing, man. 01:15:22.720 --> 01:15:26.640 So I gotta ask you what made you turn? 01:15:26.720 --> 01:15:28.800 I mean, not turn, change or whatever. 01:15:29.760 --> 01:15:30.960 Yeah, you can't, you know what? 01:15:31.039 --> 01:15:32.880 There's words you can't use anymore. 01:15:35.039 --> 01:15:36.159 I said, Wow, how many? 01:15:36.319 --> 01:15:39.840 So, how did you transition from a pro a rock star to a proscaner? 01:15:39.920 --> 01:15:43.520 No, no, no, you transition transform, maybe. 01:15:44.000 --> 01:15:51.199 Okay, so so what came about for you while you're where were you doing time here in Missouri? 01:15:51.359 --> 01:15:52.000 Yeah. 01:15:52.479 --> 01:15:54.720 What was it that hit you all of a sudden? 01:15:54.800 --> 01:15:55.760 I mean, what was it? 01:15:56.000 --> 01:16:00.079 I'll say the turner point was my uh one of my best friends getting killed. 01:16:00.319 --> 01:16:05.359 And it wasn't just I so basically every dude that I was around and with on the streets is dead. 01:16:05.439 --> 01:16:06.399 They all got killed. 01:16:06.479 --> 01:16:08.960 Nobody that I was with is alive. 01:16:09.199 --> 01:16:10.399 Nobody that I was with. 01:16:10.560 --> 01:16:11.439 No, I'll take that back. 01:16:11.520 --> 01:16:15.520 My uncle, he died, he over he OD'd, but I don't think that's natural causes, though. 01:16:15.840 --> 01:16:17.359 Yeah, that ain't natural causes. 01:16:17.600 --> 01:16:22.159 Yeah, that ain't that ain't everybody that I was around I was with got killed. 01:16:22.479 --> 01:16:26.479 Uh and one of the last people to get killed was a good friend of mine. 01:16:26.800 --> 01:16:30.640 And when he got killed, he got shot 11 times in his back with an assault rifle. 01:16:30.800 --> 01:16:34.560 And I know how he thinks, I know how he moves. 01:16:34.720 --> 01:16:42.079 And then as soon as he got killed, just started coming out that it was somebody that we embraced, somebody that we was that we was cool with. 01:16:42.319 --> 01:16:47.600 So with that, it really had me like suspicious of everybody that I thought

was cool. 01:16:47.840 --> 01:16:50.640 And then it had me second guess at everything. 01:16:50.800 --> 01:16:58.640 But then there were certain people that I knew was still like, these are still the homies, these are still people that look up to me. 01:16:58.720 --> 01:17:06.560 This is still, and I just knew like I can't continue like this because I love these dudes. 01:17:06.640 --> 01:17:09.199 I love these people, these people that I care about. 01:17:09.359 --> 01:17:14.319 So I have to figure out a way to open the door for them to be able to walk through. 01:17:14.560 --> 01:17:20.159 Because I opened the door with the banging, and now I have to figure out a way for another door for them to walk through. 01:17:20.319 --> 01:17:30.960 Because I feel like if you were gonna be, I feel like a great leader is only a good follower because you have to understand what the people that you're leading need and want and desire. 01:17:31.119 --> 01:17:34.319 And the people that I was trying to lead, they wanted a better life. 01:17:34.399 --> 01:17:37.840 So I said, okay, let me figure something out where everybody can eat. 01:17:38.000 --> 01:17:43.279 So I started writing the books, and with the books, when I kept the money, it led to a lot of other stuff. 01:17:43.439 --> 01:17:46.159 I'm literally was a club promoter in prison. 01:17:46.319 --> 01:17:50.079 I'm throwing parties on the street where women would be like, hey, go to this party. 01:17:50.640 --> 01:17:51.520 I'm not listening to you. 01:17:51.600 --> 01:17:52.239 How you know? 01:17:52.319 --> 01:17:53.279 Because it's my party. 01:17:53.439 --> 01:18:05.680 How you throwing a party you would just so but anyway, it it kind of opened doors that people that I cared about can go through because of the money that I made from the books, I was able to do certain stuff. 01:18:05.760 --> 01:18:09.680 And now, with me being a film producer, I'm an employer. 01:18:09.840 --> 01:18:12.319 I employ a lot of people in order to do it. 01:18:12.399 --> 01:18:19.439 But that was really kind of like the the shift when he got killed because it made me question the people that I thought was loyal. 01:18:19.600 --> 01:18:26.239 And it's like, damn, y'all would kill him, and he was the dude that's like anything happened. 01:18:26.479 --> 01:18:29.520 He's gonna be frontline, front center. 01:18:29.600 --> 01:18:30.560 He don't he don't care. 01:18:30.640 --> 01:18:31.760 He's like, ah, what happened? 01:18:31.840 --> 01:18:35.760 He's gonna, if y'all kill him, then it means I know y'all would kill me. 01:18:35.840 --> 01:18:36.960 I already told on me. 01:18:37.039 --> 01:18:37.600 You know what I mean? 01:18:37.680 --> 01:18:39.520 People done already told on me. 01:18:39.600 --> 01:18:45.439 So the next thing is for somebody that I love or somebody I'm close to to kill me, and I'm like, that's not about to ever be the case. 01:18:45.680 --> 01:18:53.199 That's interesting you say that, because I remember

as a prosecutor, you know, there's a normal gang shooting where it's just rivals. 01:18:53.279 --> 01:18:56.079 It's not hatred necessarily, it's just rivals. 01:18:56.239 --> 01:19:03.920 And but there were some cases I had, like the royal family, where this leader, he'd kill anybody, I mean, he'd care less. 01:19:04.000 --> 01:19:07.279 I mean, and no and no compunction to shoot and kill anybody. 01:19:07.600 --> 01:19:09.920 I would wonder to myself, how can he have friends? 01:19:10.960 --> 01:19:18.720 I mean, if you're wanting to kill some person and their kid who you don't even know, what if you get on his wrong side, would he kill you too? 01:19:19.199 --> 01:19:21.920 I mean, did is that uh well, how did you feel? 01:19:22.000 --> 01:19:33.039 I mean, the because you you weren't at least as far as I can see, you were a member of a gang or gang related, and you were have rivals, right? 01:19:33.520 --> 01:19:34.880 And those rivals were the enemy. 01:19:34.960 --> 01:19:38.000 They're like soldiers, and you're the one side, and is that is that true? 01:19:38.239 --> 01:19:38.479 Yeah. 01:19:38.720 --> 01:19:39.039 Okay. 01:19:39.520 --> 01:19:51.279 So whereas if you were just out there killing for the sake of killing for money, contracts, things like that, you know, and you could care less who you killed than what was just my job. 01:19:51.359 --> 01:19:55.600 Yeah, wouldn't you find it hard to trust people you're working with? 01:19:55.680 --> 01:19:57.760 Because what if it was their job to take you out? 01:19:57.920 --> 01:19:59.600 I mean, they wouldn't think twice, right? 01:19:59.680 --> 01:20:07.359 I mean, so it's crazy that you say that because I was raised around like real killers. 01:20:07.760 --> 01:20:09.520 Like real killers. 01:20:09.680 --> 01:20:10.399 You know what I'm saying? 01:20:10.479 --> 01:20:13.279 Like, I literally had people because I got shot. 01:20:13.439 --> 01:20:15.760 So y'all forgot that I got shot when I was young. 01:20:16.000 --> 01:20:16.960 I got shot four times. 01:20:17.119 --> 01:20:18.319 My whole left side got shot. 01:20:18.399 --> 01:20:24.399 I got shot in the knee, got shot in the back, got shot in my thigh, came out my my penis, got shot in the head. 01:20:24.479 --> 01:20:27.199 The bullet in my head is still here, the bullet in my back is still there. 01:20:27.279 --> 01:20:31.199 So it's a bullet in the back of my head, and it's a bullet like right by my spine. 01:20:31.279 --> 01:20:38.880 So I can actually feel the weather because the uh the cartilage, because you know, cartilage goes around any foreign object in your body. 01:20:39.119 --> 01:20:40.319 The cartilage just started to move. 01:20:40.399 --> 01:20:45.279 It'll rub against my back, like my head, I can know when it's rain, when it's about to be cold, all of that. 01:20:45.680 --> 01:20:53.119 But after I got shot, my uncle, who was a savage killer, literally trained me. 01:20:53.199 --> 01:20:58.479 Like, this is how you

kill people, this is how you do this, this is how you get up on them, you gotta watch them. 01:20:58.800 --> 01:21:01.039 This is whoopy whoop, you do this, you do that. 01:21:01.119 --> 01:21:02.319 This is how you load this gun. 01:21:02.399 --> 01:21:10.159 This is how you do it, you get on them like this, literally like training me, like in the car, or get out on him, oh, get on him, whatever. 01:21:10.239 --> 01:21:10.960 You know what I'm saying? 01:21:11.119 --> 01:21:12.479 Showing me all of this. 01:21:13.039 --> 01:21:17.760 But the thing of it was I never respected hit men. 01:21:18.239 --> 01:21:22.239 I never respected people that took people's lives for money. 01:21:22.319 --> 01:21:23.520 I'm a man of honor. 01:21:23.680 --> 01:21:29.359 And it's just certain things you shouldn't do for money because this person hasn't done anything to you. 01:21:29.680 --> 01:21:29.760 Right. 01:21:30.079 --> 01:21:32.640 This person isn't trying to do anything to you. 01:21:32.880 --> 01:21:36.159 You literally is about to take somebody's life for some money. 01:21:36.319 --> 01:21:43.039 And there's no telling how much money or what this person could have done to benefit other people. 01:21:43.279 --> 01:21:49.600 And you just took that away from them because somebody else was too much of a pussy to go do it themselves. 01:21:49.680 --> 01:21:50.960 So now they're paying you. 01:21:51.039 --> 01:21:51.279 Yeah. 01:21:51.439 --> 01:21:57.279 I never respected the dudes that put hits, I never respected the dudes that took hits because of this dude. 01:21:57.359 --> 01:22:02.800 And now if you in jail and somebody telling on you, then it's kind of like, ah, okay, you couldn't get to him. 01:22:03.199 --> 01:22:09.439 But if you on the street and you have access to this person, man, you know what the dude say on train today, you gotta put your own work in, homie. 01:22:09.600 --> 01:22:16.479 You need to go, if you hate him that much, then you go do as crazy as it may sound, but I just never respected that. 01:22:16.640 --> 01:22:19.680 That's just like that's just like some scavenger shit to me. 01:22:19.920 --> 01:22:29.760 Yeah, see, like what what really uh motivated at the time, I was 1980, 81 when I became the head of gang unit in Chicago. 01:22:29.920 --> 01:22:32.079 I got out to LA to visit with their unit. 01:22:32.159 --> 01:22:36.000 They had a unit called Crash, criminal resources and street hoodlums. 01:22:36.399 --> 01:22:38.159 They had fancy jackets. 01:22:38.399 --> 01:22:42.479 They wanted me to have, I didn't already need a jacket, man, but they wanted to give me one. 01:22:42.560 --> 01:22:44.560 You know, I went on a raids with them. 01:22:44.960 --> 01:22:46.640 Um, and they were cowboys. 01:22:46.720 --> 01:22:47.199 They were different. 01:22:47.439 --> 01:22:50.159 I mean, these guys were real different. 01:22:50.319 --> 01:22:53.359 I mean, they were it was aggressive. 01:22:53.520 --> 01:22:55.119 I mean, they were very aggressive. 01:22:55.279 --> 01:23:00.560 And they would ride in one-man cars, and I said to them, aren't you a little concerned? 01:23:00.640 --> 01:23:09.760 Well, that's why we have to be the way we are, you know, wear these black uniforms and because if they were alone and they encountered a situation, they had to like scare the hell out of people. 01:23:09.840 --> 01:23:16.479 So they said, which I thought, well, that's that's not gaining any good community relationships if you're doing that. 01:23:17.279 --> 01:23:26.000 But uh one thing um that that that our main goal was this to get the violent offenders off the street as a prosecutor. 01:23:26.159 --> 01:23:27.279 And the reason was this. 01:23:28.159 --> 01:23:33.920 So many cases we had in Chicago, they would shoot at a rival and miss and kill an innocent person. 01:23:34.319 --> 01:23:35.920 So, you know, that's not that's not right. 01:23:36.079 --> 01:23:43.039 I mean, you know and and and I don't know how it was where you were, but back in the day, these gangbangers were bad shots. 01:23:43.119 --> 01:23:45.039 I mean, they would just shoot wildly. 01:23:45.439 --> 01:23:54.159 I had a case where there was a gang fight taking place between two gangs, and a young girl was 15 and a a young man would just come off a leaf in the Marines. 01:23:54.319 --> 01:23:58.319 They got shot right in the head with high-powered rifles, and they had nothing to do with it. 01:23:58.880 --> 01:24:04.640 And that's what really gets the public really upset because the innocents getting killed. 01:24:05.279 --> 01:24:23.600 So our goal was to go after the violent offenders that are out shooting everybody, not just rivals, but anybody, the gang leaders who had some uh control over this, and people that are trying to intimidate young kids to being in gangs. 01:24:23.760 --> 01:24:30.239 And back then they would employ 15, 16-year-olds, it which when I started, they were still juveniles. 01:24:30.560 --> 01:24:31.680 And then the law changed. 01:24:31.840 --> 01:24:38.800 In fact, I went and helped speak to them about moving them up to the criminal adult system because they knew what they were doing. 01:24:39.600 --> 01:24:44.800 So, how did you view prosecutors from your perspective? 01:24:45.119 --> 01:24:48.319 So I have a funny outlook. 01:24:48.399 --> 01:24:49.600 So it's like this. 01:24:50.319 --> 01:24:52.079 I respect prosecutors. 01:24:52.159 --> 01:24:55.279 I've never said fuck the police in my life. 01:24:55.600 --> 01:24:58.239 Uh okay, I have said fuck the police. 01:24:58.560 --> 01:25:00.479 But I never, but I never like it. 01:25:00.560 --> 01:25:04.079 That's never been like my feelings towards the police. 01:25:04.239 --> 01:25:05.359 You know, it's police might be. 01:25:05.439 --> 01:25:06.800 I was like, man, fuck the police, man. 01:25:06.880 --> 01:25:12.640 God, yeah, they get, but I done said fuck my mom, I done said fuck homes, I done said fuck a lot of people in the moment.

01:25:13.039 --> 01:25:14.720 But I never felt like fuck the police. 01:25:14.800 --> 01:25:17.359 I never had issues with judges or any of that. 01:25:17.840 --> 01:25:27.680 Even when I got found guilty and they gave me all that time, I wasn't, I wasn't like, oh, fuck my judge, fuck my prosecutor. 01:25:27.920 --> 01:25:33.760 Nah, like police, prosecutor, judge, they are necessary in society. 01:25:33.920 --> 01:25:35.279 You have to have that. 01:25:35.520 --> 01:25:46.880 And it does something to me when I like see people be so happy, especially black people, be so happy when they see something happen to a police officer. 01:25:47.359 --> 01:25:54.000 Because as soon as your daughter get kidnapped and raped, you need the police now. 01:25:54.239 --> 01:25:55.840 Now you need the prosecutor. 01:25:56.000 --> 01:25:58.880 Now it's, oh, why y'all ain't getting justice for such and such? 01:25:59.039 --> 01:26:00.159 Justice, no, hold up. 01:26:00.239 --> 01:26:01.680 No, you can't have it both ways. 01:26:01.760 --> 01:26:05.520 You can't say fuck 12, fuck the law, fuck the police, fuck this, fuck that. 01:26:05.680 --> 01:26:07.760 But then when this happened, oh, it's justice. 01:26:07.920 --> 01:26:14.159 In order to get justice, you need police, you need prosecutors, you need judges, you need a justice system, you need a judicial system. 01:26:14.319 --> 01:26:16.159 So I always understood that. 01:26:16.319 --> 01:26:20.560 I just always felt like I've never in my life down 911. 01:26:20.640 --> 01:26:22.960 Even when I got shot, they just took me to the hospital. 01:26:23.119 --> 01:26:29.439 Because I always felt like by me living outside the perimeters of the law, that the police aren't for me. 01:26:29.680 --> 01:26:30.720 I don't pay taxes. 01:26:31.039 --> 01:26:34.640 Y'all are for the people that pay taxes, y'all are for the people that vote. 01:26:34.800 --> 01:26:36.079 That's y'all group. 01:26:36.159 --> 01:26:38.000 I'm outside of that. 01:26:38.159 --> 01:26:39.520 And I understood that. 01:26:39.760 --> 01:26:48.960 But I never had an issue with the police because I understood people that pay taxes, get up, go to work, try to take care of their kids. 01:26:49.199 --> 01:26:52.960 They need somebody to protect them from motherfuckers like me. 01:26:53.119 --> 01:26:59.039 Not saying motherfuckers like me personally, but people that live outside of the perimeters of the law. 01:26:59.920 --> 01:27:05.680 Because you're gonna have some people that live outside the law that have no morals, and they're gonna do anything. 01:27:05.920 --> 01:27:12.560 And then you let then you have a very small group of people that's like, yeah, I know what I am, but they don't have anything to do with me. 01:27:12.640 --> 01:27:14.720 So they leave the innocence innocent. 01:27:14.800 --> 01:27:16.560 But you most definitely need the police. 01:27:16.720 --> 01:27:19.359 I've never had a problem with prosecutors, judges, none of that. 01:27:19.439 --> 01:27:21.600 There's certain motherfuckers that need to be in jail. 01:27:21.760 --> 01:27:23.680 There's people I've been around in prison. 01:27:23.760 --> 01:27:26.079 I'm like, well, I hope they don't ever let your ass out. 01:27:26.640 --> 01:27:32.720 You need to stay in here because there's certain people that need to be off the streets, period. 01:27:33.199 --> 01:27:37.039 So I've never had an issue with them. 01:27:37.600 --> 01:27:42.800 Well, I'll tell you an interesting case just about that that what you're speaking to. 01:27:42.960 --> 01:27:44.319 I was a young prosecutor. 01:27:44.399 --> 01:27:46.960 I tried a case, it was an armed robbery of two gay guys. 01:27:47.119 --> 01:27:48.720 They didn't they didn't call them gay at that time. 01:27:48.960 --> 01:27:50.880 I don't know what they called them, but they were dancers. 01:27:51.039 --> 01:27:51.199 Yeah. 01:27:51.520 --> 01:27:56.319 And they got stuck up by two guys, and the one guy was a bad guy, he had a bad record. 01:27:56.960 --> 01:27:59.279 Eventually the police identified who they were. 01:28:00.159 --> 01:28:01.039 Case went to trial. 01:28:01.600 --> 01:28:04.000 Well, you've got uh two victims, right? 01:28:04.239 --> 01:28:09.119 One victim breaks up and doesn't has nothing to do with the other, their boyfriends at the time. 01:28:09.279 --> 01:28:10.239 He won't testify. 01:28:10.560 --> 01:28:11.439 He's out in LA. 01:28:11.520 --> 01:28:17.840 So we got to put a case on two armed robbers, and the one victim is extremely effeminate. 01:28:18.720 --> 01:28:22.560 I put him on the witness stand, the jury laughed at him back then. 01:28:22.720 --> 01:28:24.880 I mean, I laughed at him, and he was telling the truth. 01:28:25.119 --> 01:28:29.119 I had him step from the jury box, they say, look around the courtroom, see if you see the people. 01:28:29.439 --> 01:28:31.439 And he go, Oh, he's right there and right there. 01:28:31.520 --> 01:28:34.640 And the jury laughed, okay, which I thought was disgusting, you know. 01:28:35.600 --> 01:28:37.760 So uh we finished the case. 01:28:38.479 --> 01:28:40.800 The jury was off for 25 hours. 01:28:41.600 --> 01:28:43.439 They were really over days. 01:28:43.840 --> 01:28:46.079 And they found these guys not guilty, okay? 01:28:46.880 --> 01:28:47.680 And they hugged. 01:28:48.159 --> 01:28:50.079 Some of the jurors hugged the defendants. 01:28:50.640 --> 01:29:02.399 Well, during the time that jury was deliberating, his lawyer came up to my partner and I, and he said the following he said, I sure hope you get this these guys, because this blue one guy named Blue, he's gonna kill somebody for sure. 01:29:03.920 --> 01:29:04.720 Not guilty, right? 01:29:05.199 --> 01:29:10.800 Eight months later, he killed a 65-year-old guy who's selling candy out of his house to kids in the neighborhood. 01:29:10.880 --> 01:29:11.119 Uh-huh. 01:29:11.279 --> 01:29:12.560 Shoots him violently. 01:29:12.880 --> 01:29:14.479

I prosecuted that case too. 01:29:14.560 --> 01:29:14.800 Uh-huh. 01:29:15.039 --> 01:29:18.399 So as a prosecutor, there's two most horrible things. 01:29:18.640 --> 01:29:20.640 Number one, prosecuting an innocent man. 01:29:20.720 --> 01:29:24.319 That is without question the worst thing you could ever do. 01:29:24.640 --> 01:29:26.640 Number two, losing a case. 01:29:26.960 --> 01:29:32.479 And as a result, the guy you the guy come not guilty, not that it's your fault, they say goes out and kills somebody. 01:29:32.880 --> 01:29:34.880 So I've experienced the second one. 01:29:35.039 --> 01:29:35.359 Okay. 01:29:35.920 --> 01:29:39.279 And question I had for you. 01:29:39.439 --> 01:29:46.479 When you were encountering people in prison, did you ever encounter anybody who thought they got framed by the police or the prosecution? 01:29:47.520 --> 01:29:48.720 They thought they got framed? 01:29:48.880 --> 01:29:49.520 Yeah, framed. 01:29:49.600 --> 01:29:55.119 Like they're putting it on him and he didn't do it, and they're intentionally putting it on him or whoever. 01:29:55.600 --> 01:29:59.520 As opposed to as opposed to somebody that was innocent. 01:29:59.600 --> 01:30:01.199 And you're saying the police actually went up to the city. 01:30:02.720 --> 01:30:10.479 A person who thought who you who conveyed their innocence, but the state put it on him for whatever reason. 01:30:10.720 --> 01:30:13.359 I'm saying I probably was, but I wouldn't have given a fuck. 01:30:13.520 --> 01:30:16.880 If they would have came to me, I'm like, I don't give a fuck about your case, man. 01:30:16.960 --> 01:30:17.520 I don't care. 01:30:17.680 --> 01:30:19.920 I was one of I was one, yeah. 01:30:20.079 --> 01:30:25.600 If you wasn't a young gang banger, I didn't give a fuck about nothing you was talking about in jail, or older gangbanger. 01:30:25.840 --> 01:30:26.159 Okay. 01:30:26.399 --> 01:30:31.279 So your feeling was they're there for a reason, and whatever it is, it is. 01:30:31.439 --> 01:30:37.680 And you're not gonna dwell on their their accusations of being framed or they're innocent. 01:30:37.840 --> 01:30:40.159 Nah, I just didn't give a fuck about nobody else's case. 01:30:40.399 --> 01:30:40.560 Okay. 01:30:41.199 --> 01:30:45.520 No, so it's so a person could come to me like, man, the police frame me, they set me up, they did this. 01:30:45.600 --> 01:30:46.880 I don't give a fuck. 01:30:47.119 --> 01:30:51.760 I was I was a very yeah, I was a very aggressive dude. 01:30:51.920 --> 01:30:55.199 Like, so a dude like that probably wouldn't even want to talk to me. 01:30:55.439 --> 01:30:57.520 When did you stop being aggressive? 01:30:57.840 --> 01:30:58.800 I never did. 01:30:59.039 --> 01:31:03.199 I just I just converted my aggression to the books. 01:31:03.520 --> 01:31:09.359 Oh if you really just trip over it, like I'm I got I'm very big on self-analysis. 01:31:09.520 --> 01:31:11.199 So I look at myself. 01:31:11.359 --> 01:31:16.640 So

I just converted my aggression from the gangbanging and the violence over to the books. 01:31:16.720 --> 01:31:24.000 To write over a hundred books, over 250 something stories in less than 10 years, that's an aggressive approach to writing. 01:31:24.239 --> 01:31:25.840 That's what shows passion, too. 01:31:25.920 --> 01:31:27.680 Yeah, a lot of passion. 01:31:28.319 --> 01:31:32.000 So he he can answer the question you have for him. 01:31:33.199 --> 01:31:37.680 What as far as like being uh wrongfully committed or uh frying. 01:31:38.000 --> 01:31:47.359 We was around somebody that was fine, wrongfully basically my silhouette, no audience. 01:31:47.520 --> 01:31:49.199 Um you can talk about it. 01:31:52.079 --> 01:32:08.319 We're gonna really my question is this as a pro former prosecutor, um have you ever been involved or dealt with somebody who was basically innocent but still was arrested, charged, and put on trial, and maybe even convicted? 01:32:08.560 --> 01:32:12.960 Do you do you do you want to go from the standpoint of uh wrongfully convicted? 01:32:13.119 --> 01:32:13.439 Yes. 01:32:13.600 --> 01:32:15.600 Okay, so yes, I'll I went to trial. 01:32:15.680 --> 01:32:19.119 So Akasha, this is my brother here. 01:32:19.359 --> 01:32:22.960 So I went to trial. 01:32:23.279 --> 01:32:24.640 Okay, but what was the charge? 01:32:24.960 --> 01:32:27.760 So my charge was first degree robbery or criminal action. 01:32:28.000 --> 01:32:28.159 Okay. 01:32:28.720 --> 01:32:45.520 So now I'm not gonna get fully into details, but one thing is that the witnesses in the case said we didn't see a face, we knew silhouettes and body shapes and sizes. 01:32:46.960 --> 01:33:02.399 So the whole thing of the case is that because they had a personal relationship with the co-defendants in my case, they said if they did it and we know that they did it because they're always together, he did it too. 01:33:03.359 --> 01:33:04.720 They brought a case like that? 01:33:04.960 --> 01:33:06.159 They brought a case like that. 01:33:06.560 --> 01:33:07.760 And you were to go to trial with it? 01:33:08.000 --> 01:33:10.239 I went to trial with it and I lost their trial. 01:33:10.560 --> 01:33:10.880 No. 01:33:12.319 --> 01:33:13.359 There was no actual ID. 01:33:13.439 --> 01:33:14.000 It was a sort of thing. 01:33:14.159 --> 01:33:15.520 There was no actual ID. 01:33:15.600 --> 01:33:17.760 I would show you my whole transcripts. 01:33:17.920 --> 01:33:20.479 They said that they never seen the face. 01:33:20.560 --> 01:33:24.000 They knew me because of body size, shape, and silhouette. 01:33:24.640 --> 01:33:26.960 Well, first of all, I can just say this. 01:33:27.119 --> 01:33:36.399 As a prosecutor, I wouldn't have put the case on because I would have thought I was gonna lose, number one, because how do you win a case when the eyeballs are given that kind of description? 01:33:36.479 --> 01:33:38.319 The defense attorney would tear them up. 01:33:38.479 --> 01:33:40.960

I mean, that that's that's how we approached it. 01:33:41.199 --> 01:33:46.479 Because if I was a convinced beyond any doubt in the world, I'm not gonna go after somebody. 01:33:46.720 --> 01:33:50.800 After somebody who says, oh, it looked like a silhouette. 01:33:51.600 --> 01:33:52.159 Really? 01:33:52.319 --> 01:33:53.520 And yet they did that? 01:33:53.760 --> 01:33:59.359 They did that and prosecuted me and and charged me, did you know, did it and you got a charge for? 01:33:59.600 --> 01:34:00.880 Did you give a statement? 01:34:01.439 --> 01:34:02.640 No, I didn't get no statement. 01:34:02.960 --> 01:34:05.600 Did they give did they need them to talk on you? 01:34:06.079 --> 01:34:13.760 So what they did was they they found out, so throughout the case, they found out that we knew these people, and these people knew us. 01:34:14.000 --> 01:34:14.560 The victims? 01:34:14.800 --> 01:34:16.960 The victims, so forth. 01:34:17.279 --> 01:34:29.439 So because I was connected with the family of the victims, they said, well, if these people did it, and we know these they did it, then he did it too. 01:34:32.880 --> 01:34:35.680 That's a robbery was it a robbery? 01:34:35.920 --> 01:34:36.720 It was a robbery. 01:34:36.880 --> 01:34:37.199 Armed? 01:34:37.760 --> 01:34:38.880 Armed robbery. 01:34:39.439 --> 01:34:40.800 What time of the day? 01:34:41.119 --> 01:34:46.239 This was maybe they say it happened three, four, maybe in the morning. 01:34:47.199 --> 01:34:48.560 Did you have an alibi? 01:34:48.880 --> 01:34:50.159 Yeah, I had an alibi. 01:34:50.479 --> 01:34:51.279 Where were you? 01:34:51.600 --> 01:34:53.439 At home, in the bed, sleep. 01:34:53.840 --> 01:34:54.560 With anybody? 01:34:54.720 --> 01:34:55.119 Yes. 01:34:55.359 --> 01:34:56.720 Had an alibi, everything. 01:34:56.800 --> 01:34:58.640 I'll show you my whole trial transcript. 01:34:58.720 --> 01:34:59.680 You'll laugh at it. 01:35:00.000 --> 01:35:01.920 You will say, How did he even get convicted? 01:35:02.079 --> 01:35:04.800 Had a top lawyer,$30,000 John Anthony Turner. 01:35:05.119 --> 01:35:05.840 This is what I'm saying. 01:35:05.920 --> 01:35:10.319 I mean, that's the first thing, because uh, I don't know what they call, what's the what's the prosecutor called here? 01:35:10.560 --> 01:35:12.000 County attorney, DA? 01:35:12.640 --> 01:35:14.239 Uh assistant district attorney, okay. 01:35:14.319 --> 01:35:14.640 ADA. 01:35:15.039 --> 01:35:15.760 ADA or something. 01:35:15.840 --> 01:35:16.000 Yeah. 01:35:16.560 --> 01:35:25.039 Okay, so normally, like where I'm from, the state's attorney, somebody from their office, the DA, it determines whether you should be charged with a felony. 01:35:25.199 --> 01:35:27.359 I don't even know how they got through that phase. 01:35:27.600 --> 01:35:29.279 Why would they think you should be charged? 01:35:29.439 --> 01:35:31.119 Because somebody said you hang with them? 01:35:31.279 --> 01:35:32.319 So this is the thing. 01:35:32.479 --> 01:35:38.640 They said more so it was because the the history of knowing the victims. 01:35:38.880 --> 01:35:39.439 So what? 01:35:39.680 --> 01:35:49.600 So that's where the conviction came from because oh, they know him, that they ride with him every day, or they know him, that they would know his body size, his shape, and his silhouette, or whatever they say. 01:35:50.239 --> 01:35:54.319 Um did the okay, how many other offenders were there? 01:35:54.960 --> 01:35:55.600 Besides you? 01:35:56.079 --> 01:35:56.399 Two other. 01:35:56.800 --> 01:35:57.680 There were three all together. 01:35:58.720 --> 01:36:00.159 Did they make statements? 01:36:00.479 --> 01:36:00.800 No. 01:36:01.119 --> 01:36:02.159 Nobody made a statement. 01:36:02.239 --> 01:36:03.520 So nobody pointed a finger at each other. 01:36:03.760 --> 01:36:05.439 Nobody pointed a finger at each other, nobody said. 01:36:05.840 --> 01:36:06.880 And they got convicted too? 01:36:07.119 --> 01:36:08.000 They got convicted too. 01:36:08.159 --> 01:36:08.800 From Silicon Valley. 01:36:10.800 --> 01:36:11.600 I went to trial. 01:36:11.760 --> 01:36:15.359 So after I went to trial, some other stuff happened. 01:36:15.439 --> 01:36:17.439 But we ain't, that's nothing to get into. 01:36:17.680 --> 01:36:20.800 You know, it was, it was, it's, it is what it is. 01:36:21.039 --> 01:36:22.880 What'd you want what'd you end up getting for that? 01:36:23.039 --> 01:36:24.399 I ended up getting 15. 01:36:24.640 --> 01:36:24.960 No. 01:36:25.520 --> 01:36:26.159 Yeah. 01:36:27.680 --> 01:36:28.239 For that? 01:36:28.399 --> 01:36:28.720 Yep. 01:36:28.880 --> 01:36:30.560 How many offenses before that had you had? 01:36:30.640 --> 01:36:31.119 A few? 01:36:31.359 --> 01:36:32.880 Uh one other offense. 01:36:33.199 --> 01:36:34.880 Anything serious before? 01:36:35.439 --> 01:36:36.319 Slightly. 01:36:36.640 --> 01:36:36.960 Before. 01:36:37.199 --> 01:36:39.119 Well, see, it was so it was slightly so. 01:36:39.359 --> 01:36:40.479 You look too young to have done anything. 01:36:40.800 --> 01:36:47.439 So what happened was, so what happened was I uh I had brought a weapon to school. 01:36:47.600 --> 01:36:47.920 Okay. 01:36:48.159 --> 01:36:48.720 Earlier on. 01:36:48.880 --> 01:36:49.520 You know what I mean? 01:36:49.680 --> 01:36:52.640 So this was probably a few years earlier, we brought a weapon to school. 01:36:52.800 --> 01:36:52.960 Sure. 01:36:53.199 --> 01:36:54.159 Had the same lawyer. 01:36:54.399 --> 01:36:56.159 Same lawyer represented me on that. 01:36:56.720 --> 01:36:58.880 I mean, I did well on that case. 01:36:58.960 --> 01:37:02.239 You know, they was talking about at that time it was so much going on. 01:37:02.319 --> 01:37:05.920 They had the Columbine, you know, they had the Columbine shooting the guns and stuff in school. 01:37:06.000 --> 01:37:07.119 So it was a big deal. 01:37:07.279 --> 01:37:12.479 So when that happened, I they actually I was on CNN and

Nancy Grace, she spoke on it, which no. 01:37:12.720 --> 01:37:14.319 Yeah, she spoke on the situation. 01:37:14.399 --> 01:37:18.319 This was so it was a big deal. 01:37:18.640 --> 01:37:20.000 He did good on that case. 01:37:20.159 --> 01:37:20.880 You know what I mean? 01:37:21.039 --> 01:37:27.600 I there, I mean, for you for the offense, I was 17 going on 18. 01:37:27.680 --> 01:37:27.840 Okay. 01:37:28.000 --> 01:37:32.159 So, but by the time I took my time, or well, I got what I got for it, I was 18. 01:37:32.239 --> 01:37:33.199 So, but he did good. 01:37:33.279 --> 01:37:34.640 I didn't have to do no jail time. 01:37:34.720 --> 01:37:41.279 I ended up doing probation, SIS, and you know, but so you had an offense for something involving a firearm. 01:37:41.600 --> 01:37:41.920 Right. 01:37:42.079 --> 01:37:42.399 Okay. 01:37:42.800 --> 01:37:45.199 Did you testify at the second trial, at the trial? 01:37:45.680 --> 01:37:46.000 No. 01:37:46.720 --> 01:37:48.239 Who testified for you? 01:37:48.479 --> 01:37:48.880 Nobody. 01:37:49.039 --> 01:37:50.079 No alibi witness. 01:37:50.319 --> 01:37:56.800 You told me at that time he was like, man, listen, don't get on the stand, you know, your history, your background, they're gonna bring this up. 01:37:57.119 --> 01:38:00.239 And then, okay, because I had been shot, I had been gang activity. 01:38:00.319 --> 01:38:00.880 It's a lot of stuff. 01:38:00.960 --> 01:38:02.960 It's a whole thing. 01:38:03.840 --> 01:38:09.039 But why did they call a witness that would say you weren't there? 01:38:10.720 --> 01:38:12.479 He said he need her. 01:38:12.640 --> 01:38:14.560 It wouldn't help the case or something. 01:38:14.640 --> 01:38:16.399 It was it was a lot going on. 01:38:16.800 --> 01:38:18.319 So I don't know about that, man. 01:38:18.640 --> 01:38:22.880 But it was a lack of knowledge too, you know, to the judicial system and how trials go and how that works. 01:38:23.279 --> 01:38:29.520 At that time, you know, I'm pretty used to anything of the judicial system or how it works. 01:38:29.600 --> 01:38:32.720 So it was like So a surprise, so so okay. 01:38:33.920 --> 01:38:36.000 So you went to trial by yourself. 01:38:36.239 --> 01:38:36.800 Right. 01:38:38.079 --> 01:38:41.279 And the only evidence was a silhouette. 01:38:42.880 --> 01:38:46.880 No physical evidence, no nothing. 01:38:47.279 --> 01:38:50.479 There just there were against mine. 01:38:50.720 --> 01:38:52.640 But you're but you're uh against your silhouette. 01:38:53.279 --> 01:38:54.159 That's it. 01:38:54.399 --> 01:39:01.840 Okay, so so how how long after from the rest of the trial, how long did they take to get to trial? 01:39:01.920 --> 01:39:04.720 From the time you got arrested for it to the trial, how long was that? 01:39:04.880 --> 01:39:06.319 Uh about a year. 01:39:07.199 --> 01:39:07.520 Man. 01:39:08.079 --> 01:39:10.640 And they ever did they ever offer you any kind of a plea deal? 01:39:10.800 --> 01:39:11.920 Oh, they offered a plea. 01:39:12.000 --> 01:39:14.880 Yeah, they first the first offer they came with 30 years. 01:39:15.119 --> 01:39:15.840 30 years? 01:39:16.159 --> 01:39:17.039 30 years. 01:39:17.600 --> 01:39:18.560 He called my father. 01:39:18.880 --> 01:39:20.319 These people out here ain't playing, are they? 01:39:20.800 --> 01:39:22.000 30 years from that first time. 01:39:22.319 --> 01:39:24.079 So yeah, so I ended up bonding out. 01:39:24.159 --> 01:39:25.600 So I was out, I was fighting again. 01:39:25.920 --> 01:39:27.039 Yeah, I was out on bond. 01:39:27.119 --> 01:39:28.399 So when he called, the first time. 01:39:29.039 --> 01:39:29.920 What was your bond, by the way? 01:39:30.079 --> 01:39:31.520 My bond was 75,000. 01:39:31.680 --> 01:39:33.199 So 7,500 awatt? 01:39:33.520 --> 01:39:34.079 Uh, yeah. 01:39:34.560 --> 01:39:34.720 Okay. 01:39:35.039 --> 01:39:36.720 So 7,500 a walk. 01:39:36.880 --> 01:39:43.439 And uh the first offer he called with probably two months after my bond was like, he was like, Yeah, I just talked to the prosecutor. 01:39:43.600 --> 01:39:45.760 Uh the first offer is 30 years. 01:39:47.760 --> 01:39:48.079 Yeah. 01:39:48.399 --> 01:39:49.840 I can't even take my own. 01:39:50.079 --> 01:39:56.880 See, it's hard to believe how hot they were so hot to try it over a silhouette that they can't even the identification. 01:39:57.359 --> 01:39:58.960 What do they mean by a silhouette? 01:39:59.199 --> 01:40:04.560 What was the defining So they said we came in with do-rag mask on. 01:40:04.880 --> 01:40:09.920 So anybody know that if you have a do-rag mask, remember the black do rag mask you put around your head? 01:40:10.000 --> 01:40:16.079 If you put it over your face, I don't care if it's light outside, you're still not going to be able to see any facial features. 01:40:16.319 --> 01:40:16.640 Right. 01:40:16.800 --> 01:40:22.399 So they convicted me off a silhouette saying that the black mask could show the shape of my face. 01:40:26.399 --> 01:40:27.840 And you didn't do it. 01:40:35.600 --> 01:40:37.520 I'm just saying I went to trial. 01:40:37.760 --> 01:40:38.960 Okay, that's whatever. 01:40:39.199 --> 01:40:43.199 But I'm just saying it's hard to believe that you got convicted of that. 01:40:43.359 --> 01:40:44.000 Yeah, definitely. 01:40:44.239 --> 01:40:45.600 That wouldn't have happened in Chicago. 01:40:45.840 --> 01:40:46.800 Now you look it up. 01:40:47.039 --> 01:40:50.000 We would have put that thing out for next to nothing just to get rid of the case. 01:40:50.159 --> 01:40:52.560 Because that would, I don't want to lose a case like that. 01:40:52.800 --> 01:41:04.239 So to his question, you came across, he you, he, he's definitely came across somebody with that type of uh case or that type of, you know, so and and it's it's plenty more than that. 01:41:04.399 --> 01:41:04.720 Really? 01:41:04.960 --> 01:41:06.319 It's plenty more people that I know about. 01:41:06.800 --> 01:41:09.920 He was

saying like something that the police went out their way to frame somebody. 01:41:10.079 --> 01:41:11.119 Well, yeah, they made it up. 01:41:11.520 --> 01:41:14.560 Well, yeah, I mean, uh you see, here's the thing. 01:41:14.800 --> 01:41:18.720 I don't know whether it happens a lot, and that's why you see it on TV, or it doesn't happen very often. 01:41:18.880 --> 01:41:25.039 That's why you see it on TV because they're highlighting a case that doesn't happen that often, or maybe it happens all the time. 01:41:25.279 --> 01:41:26.000 See, I don't know. 01:41:26.319 --> 01:41:30.319 Like when you was talking about crash, they do that. 01:41:30.880 --> 01:41:32.720 They do that all the time. 01:41:32.880 --> 01:41:38.960 Like crash used to literally pull up on us and bust us down right on Avalon. 01:41:39.039 --> 01:41:39.199 Yeah. 01:41:39.359 --> 01:41:40.880 Or on or on the feed. 01:41:41.039 --> 01:41:45.840 Well, basically, what they'll do, they'll literally just strip you out on the street right there. 01:41:46.000 --> 01:41:46.720 I saw it happen. 01:41:46.880 --> 01:41:52.880 Yeah, they'll literally, everybody strip. 01:41:53.359 --> 01:41:56.239 Take off everything, and then they're gonna take pictures of you to see your gang tattooing. 01:41:56.479 --> 01:41:58.640 They see your gang tattoos and shit. 01:41:59.039 --> 01:42:00.399 I saw it happen. 01:42:00.560 --> 01:42:02.800 I mean, I I I was with the ride-along, and they did. 01:42:02.960 --> 01:42:03.600 I was shocked. 01:42:03.680 --> 01:42:07.600 I'm like, I said, Do you guys can get away with this? 01:42:10.560 --> 01:42:13.359 There were cowboys out there in LA when they saw it was out there. 01:42:13.600 --> 01:42:15.039 And they'll frame you. 01:42:15.439 --> 01:42:21.760 And they used to do the thing where they'll like take this dude from this neighborhood and take him over to that neighborhood. 01:42:21.920 --> 01:42:22.720 Yeah, I heard that. 01:42:22.880 --> 01:42:28.720 And then when you'll go to LA County, they'll take you from one pot and put you in another pod. 01:42:28.960 --> 01:42:30.640 Pod with the rival gang members. 01:42:31.119 --> 01:42:32.079 Because they knew all the policies. 01:42:32.399 --> 01:42:34.239 That would go that goes on other places too. 01:42:34.399 --> 01:42:34.720 Yeah. 01:42:34.880 --> 01:42:40.239 I mean, just I just I was never I just never seen any police officers more aggressive than the crash unit. 01:42:40.399 --> 01:42:40.560 No. 01:42:40.960 --> 01:42:42.239 I remember I mentioned it too. 01:42:42.319 --> 01:42:43.359 I saw it, man. 01:42:43.760 --> 01:42:45.920 They had their jackets, they were all proud of that. 01:42:46.159 --> 01:42:47.359 Yeah, they had tanks. 01:42:47.520 --> 01:42:48.079 They had everything. 01:42:48.399 --> 01:42:52.000 They had the uh because they'll they'll they'll come to your house with tanks. 01:42:52.159 --> 01:42:52.399 Yep. 01:42:52.560 --> 01:42:54.640 Because I I want to say, uh, what's his name? 01:42:54.800 --> 01:42:56.000 The Gates dude. 01:42:56.159 --> 01:42:58.560 Uh his last name was Gates. 01:42:58.720 --> 01:43:00.399 He was the uh police chief. 01:43:00.479 --> 01:43:02.399 Yeah, he was the police chief for a long time. 01:43:02.640 --> 01:43:03.439 I didn't met him. 01:43:03.600 --> 01:43:08.640 He went and started buying military equipment for the LAPD. 01:43:08.800 --> 01:43:09.199 Yep. 01:43:09.359 --> 01:43:12.640 When they used to kick in people's houses, they used to use you'll see it. 01:43:12.720 --> 01:43:17.359 You'll just see tanks coming down the street like it's a rod just to serve a warrant. 01:43:17.520 --> 01:43:18.880 That was a Marine car out there. 01:43:19.279 --> 01:43:20.640 That's who they recruited from, man. 01:43:20.720 --> 01:43:22.560 After Vietnam, everybody came out of the war. 01:43:22.640 --> 01:43:24.399 They wanted them an LAPD. 01:43:24.560 --> 01:43:30.239 Every Marine, I mean, I think everybody I ever met was a poor Marine, and they were hardcore dudes. 01:43:30.479 --> 01:43:32.880 They were like, they had to be. 01:43:33.279 --> 01:43:34.319 We went on a raid. 01:43:34.479 --> 01:43:39.439 It used to be when you raided somebody's house, you had to wait till the sun was up before you could crash in, you know? 01:43:40.399 --> 01:43:49.760 So I'm in the car with there was like six cars, and they got one guy on a payphone waiting for somebody to call from the Griffith Observatory saying, okay, the sun just came up. 01:43:49.840 --> 01:43:51.760 And they got the battering ram. 01:43:52.319 --> 01:43:53.600 So it was Hispanic. 01:43:53.680 --> 01:43:54.800 So I'm in the car. 01:43:55.119 --> 01:43:56.880 Cap puts the gun back to me. 01:43:56.960 --> 01:43:57.600 I go, What's this for? 01:43:57.920 --> 01:43:58.319 Just a case. 01:43:58.479 --> 01:44:00.479 I go, these guys are really cowboys. 01:44:00.560 --> 01:44:02.880 They're handing a prosecutor a pistol out here in the street. 01:44:03.039 --> 01:44:04.319 They don't know me that well. 01:44:04.479 --> 01:44:06.479 So I get out of the car, I stay there. 01:44:07.039 --> 01:44:08.319 They bust down the door. 01:44:08.399 --> 01:44:09.439 Now I can see inside. 01:44:09.520 --> 01:44:10.800 This is the whole family. 01:44:10.960 --> 01:44:12.640 They got everybody on the floor, man. 01:44:12.880 --> 01:44:15.359 Little kids, I mean, they're screaming. 01:44:15.439 --> 01:44:16.560 And guess what happens? 01:44:16.720 --> 01:44:24.319 The guy they're looking for comes jumping through the screen and the window on the front, and there's me with a gun in my hand. 01:44:24.880 --> 01:44:27.359 And I'm like, I ain't shooting this guy. 01:44:27.520 --> 01:44:28.960 I don't care what happens, man. 01:44:29.600 --> 01:44:30.880 My hands like this. 01:44:31.680 --> 01:44:33.600 Because I'm not shooting some guy. 01:44:34.000 --> 01:44:35.600 And they finally tackled him. 01:44:35.760 --> 01:44:38.479 But I know how cowboy they were because I saw it

happen. 01:44:38.560 --> 01:44:40.239 I mean, I was like, ooh, man. 01:44:40.399 --> 01:44:41.359 I went back to Chicago. 01:44:41.439 --> 01:44:42.000 I said, I don't know. 01:44:42.079 --> 01:44:44.000 We can do it, we ain't gonna do it like this. 01:44:44.239 --> 01:44:47.439 So my extent to dealing with cries was just getting stripped. 01:44:47.600 --> 01:44:48.880 We used to call it stripped down. 01:44:48.960 --> 01:44:49.119 Yep. 01:44:49.279 --> 01:44:51.600 They'll just come and get you, strip you down right there. 01:44:51.680 --> 01:44:56.159 But I done heard war stories of yeah, yeah, crash. 01:44:56.399 --> 01:44:59.520 Why do you think those NWA and then what do you think them songs came from? 01:44:59.600 --> 01:45:00.319 That shit was really good. 01:45:00.560 --> 01:45:01.279 I know it was going down. 01:45:01.840 --> 01:45:02.960 I may be white, but I saw it. 01:45:03.039 --> 01:45:04.079 I saw it crash was a whole. 01:45:04.319 --> 01:45:05.920 And I knew this ain't cool out here. 01:45:06.079 --> 01:45:07.119 These people are crazy. 01:45:07.359 --> 01:45:09.760 Yeah, crashes, them crash officers is different. 01:45:10.640 --> 01:45:11.520 Can I tell one funny story? 01:45:11.600 --> 01:45:12.479 You'll get a kick out of it. 01:45:12.560 --> 01:45:20.399 So the first day I show up at the crash unit in LA, and I'm talking to this guy met that was a lead prosecutor of that gang crime unit. 01:45:20.479 --> 01:45:23.439 Because I'm there to like see how they do it, you know. 01:45:23.760 --> 01:45:25.520 So he says, you know, Greg, I'm really busy. 01:45:25.600 --> 01:45:28.560 I'm putting together a warrant with these guys, and they got their jackets on. 01:45:28.720 --> 01:45:31.680 And he says, I but I'll get you somebody to show you around, right? 01:45:31.840 --> 01:45:35.920 So this little short Asian guy comes walking by, he's one of their prosecutors. 01:45:36.000 --> 01:45:37.279 He goes, Hey, Lance. 01:45:37.680 --> 01:45:39.760 I go, he goes, Could you show Greg around? 01:45:39.840 --> 01:45:41.600 So I'm going around the guy, and he's laughing. 01:45:41.920 --> 01:45:43.439 He's the funniest guy I ever met. 01:45:43.680 --> 01:45:47.119 So we we get toward the end, and I go, I gotta ask you a question. 01:45:48.239 --> 01:45:50.159 How'd you get a name like Lance? 01:45:50.720 --> 01:45:51.840 He was a Japanese guy. 01:45:52.000 --> 01:45:59.279 He goes, Well, my parents were in a war, and then they were in a term in camp, you know, and the sergeant was real good to us, and we got out. 01:45:59.359 --> 01:46:00.640 His name was Lance. 01:46:00.720 --> 01:46:03.199 So when I was born, right after the war, they named me Lance. 01:46:03.279 --> 01:46:06.640 His name was Lance Edel, the judge of the OJ Simpson case. 01:46:07.439 --> 01:46:08.720 That's who that Lance was. 01:46:08.800 --> 01:46:12.640 He probably he was the judge, and years later, we became the OJ Simpson judge. 01:46:13.199 --> 01:46:15.439 He was the funniest dude I've ever met, though. 01:46:15.520 --> 01:46:16.800 He was so funny. 01:46:17.039 --> 01:46:20.720 So most people probably wonder why is the guy Japanese named Lance Edel? 01:46:21.039 --> 01:46:21.600 Lance. 01:46:22.000 --> 01:46:22.800 That's why. 01:46:23.840 --> 01:46:25.199 That's the story there. 01:46:25.600 --> 01:46:27.680 So how long was you a prosecutor in Chicago? 01:46:27.840 --> 01:46:29.119 Uh almost 10 years. 01:46:29.359 --> 01:46:30.079 From when? 01:46:30.479 --> 01:46:33.439 From 1975 to 1985. 01:46:33.680 --> 01:46:39.119 So you was there doing all the Caprini Grings and during all of that time. 01:46:39.439 --> 01:46:44.800 Yeah, Jeff Larry Floyd, Larry Hoover, Willie uh Jeff Ford. 01:46:45.359 --> 01:46:46.479 Jeff was cool. 01:46:46.800 --> 01:46:47.359 Was you there? 01:46:47.439 --> 01:46:49.520 Was you around when the Forecon uh hustlers? 01:46:49.760 --> 01:46:51.920 I heard you talk about the uh dude with the Rocket. 01:46:52.560 --> 01:46:53.680 Was you there when the Foreconner? 01:46:53.840 --> 01:46:55.119 Yeah, I forget his name. 01:46:55.279 --> 01:46:57.119 I think his name was Angelo something. 01:46:57.359 --> 01:46:57.600 Yeah. 01:46:57.760 --> 01:47:01.840 Well, the the the Vice Lords were at the time were run by the guy named Willie Lloyd. 01:47:02.000 --> 01:47:02.159 Yeah. 01:47:02.399 --> 01:47:03.920 And they were opposite of the gang. 01:47:04.079 --> 01:47:06.720 They were like the Crips and Bloods, but they didn't call them Crips and Bloods. 01:47:06.800 --> 01:47:08.479 They were the opposite, you know. 01:47:08.720 --> 01:47:16.239 Um But yeah, I mean the then the Black Gangster Disciples and the Black Disciples were rivals and the El Rukins. 01:47:16.720 --> 01:47:18.640 And I spent time at Old Block. 01:47:18.880 --> 01:47:20.079 You probably heard of that. 01:47:20.399 --> 01:47:22.159 Uh Parkway Gardens. 01:47:22.319 --> 01:47:22.479 Yeah. 01:47:22.800 --> 01:47:22.960 Yeah. 01:47:23.600 --> 01:47:31.760 I mean, I mean, those housing units were my daughter got a visit to Robert Taylor homes back about 92-93. 01:47:32.239 --> 01:47:33.840 It was an eye-opener for her, trust me. 01:47:34.720 --> 01:47:36.720 That's where he took me, not the Search Tower. 01:47:37.119 --> 01:47:40.079 To the Robert Taylor, Robert Taylor House. 01:47:40.319 --> 01:47:43.439 I heard that the Robert Taylors had like 75,000 residents. 01:47:44.079 --> 01:47:45.119 Sure did, maybe more. 01:47:45.199 --> 01:47:46.640 And half of them were gang members. 01:47:46.720 --> 01:47:46.880 Yeah. 01:47:47.039 --> 01:47:49.439 And that Kabini Green had another gang member. 01:47:49.520 --> 01:47:50.880 I mean, they ran those buildings. 01:47:51.119 --> 01:47:54.239 There was a tariff you paid to come in and out. 01:47:54.479 --> 01:47:57.520 So you was so you were a prosecutor during the sniper era. 01:47:57.840 --> 01:47:58.319 Yeah. 01:47:58.560 --> 01:47:58.880 Yeah. 01:47:59.279 --> 01:48:01.199 You know who

Tony Occardo is? 01:48:01.359 --> 01:48:01.840 Yeah. 01:48:02.079 --> 01:48:04.079 You ain't never had no dealings with that side. 01:48:04.720 --> 01:48:05.279 He was older. 01:48:05.359 --> 01:48:07.840 You know, he was uh he lived out in River Forest. 01:48:07.920 --> 01:48:11.279 He was the head of the Chicago mob, and then there was Sam G and Connor. 01:48:11.840 --> 01:48:12.159 Yeah. 01:48:12.640 --> 01:48:16.800 This royal family, they got hooked up with a guy named Joe Fariola, who was number two. 01:48:17.119 --> 01:48:18.640 Joe DeGaulle, they called him. 01:48:18.800 --> 01:48:25.439 And that's how I first came involved with uh mob itself in the firsthand, you know. 01:48:25.840 --> 01:48:28.880 Because Tony Occordo's always been my favorite mobster. 01:48:29.279 --> 01:48:30.399 Because he was low-key. 01:48:30.560 --> 01:48:31.359 Very oh no. 01:48:31.439 --> 01:48:32.720 He never got in charge of nothing. 01:48:33.039 --> 01:48:33.199 Yeah. 01:48:33.439 --> 01:48:34.399 He never served a day in jail. 01:48:34.960 --> 01:48:36.239 A lot of people don't even know who that is. 01:48:36.800 --> 01:48:37.039 Oh, he was. 01:48:37.680 --> 01:48:39.680 He was Al Capone and Tony Accordo. 01:48:39.760 --> 01:48:40.079 Yeah, yeah. 01:48:40.319 --> 01:48:41.600 But he kept real low-key. 01:48:41.680 --> 01:48:44.479 He wasn't like John Gotti, you know, running around on TV. 01:48:45.199 --> 01:48:49.520 So I actually, so I actually got a friend who was a made guy. 01:48:49.680 --> 01:48:52.560 His people was made guys in in Brooklyn. 01:48:52.640 --> 01:48:54.720 And they do not like John Gotti. 01:48:55.039 --> 01:48:55.279 No. 01:48:55.600 --> 01:48:57.039 They cannot stand John Gotti. 01:48:57.359 --> 01:49:03.680 Like black people, people outside of the Lacosa Nosha, they'd be like, oh yeah, John Gotti. 01:49:04.239 --> 01:49:06.319 But people within it was like he fucked them up. 01:49:06.640 --> 01:49:07.039 They hated it. 01:49:07.119 --> 01:49:08.079 He fucked the whole thing up. 01:49:08.239 --> 01:49:09.199 He put heat on him. 01:49:09.359 --> 01:49:09.520 Yeah. 01:49:09.680 --> 01:49:15.439 He got that Rudy Giuliani to get really worked up and they sort of go, they went after everybody across the country at one point. 01:49:16.159 --> 01:49:18.479 Yeah, Tony never got touched. 01:49:18.800 --> 01:49:20.000 Classy guy in a way. 01:49:20.079 --> 01:49:31.600 I mean, so how did you feel about like the gang leader leaders, like the Jeff Force, the Willie Lloyds, the uh the Larry Hoover's, the David Barksdales, and all of that? 01:49:31.680 --> 01:49:34.720 Or you really weren't around for uh for David Barksdale. 01:49:34.800 --> 01:49:35.359 He would already know. 01:49:35.439 --> 01:49:36.399 Oh, I knew David Barksdale. 01:49:37.680 --> 01:49:37.840 Yeah. 01:49:38.560 --> 01:49:39.760 I mean, the whole deal. 01:49:39.840 --> 01:49:46.640 And the and the Latin gang members, too, the famous Cobras, Latin Kings, insane unknowns, two six boys. 01:49:46.800 --> 01:49:49.520 I mean, you had to become an expert on gangs. 01:49:49.600 --> 01:49:53.760 I mean, and know who was affiliated with who, who were they had right and left, you know, the whole bit. 01:49:53.840 --> 01:49:55.119 Like, you know that stuff, I'm sure. 01:49:55.359 --> 01:49:58.800 So, how was your like feeling towards like the gang leaders? 01:49:58.960 --> 01:50:01.760 Like, did you like how you You asked me about how I feel about prosecution. 01:50:02.079 --> 01:50:03.199 How do I feel about gang leaders? 01:50:04.000 --> 01:50:06.239 Okay, I met Larry Hoover and he was cool. 01:50:06.399 --> 01:50:07.520 I met him in prison. 01:50:07.600 --> 01:50:08.720 I actually went and talked to him. 01:50:08.880 --> 01:50:10.800 Willie Lloyd, Feisler, cool. 01:50:10.880 --> 01:50:11.520 I mean, they were cool. 01:50:11.680 --> 01:50:12.239 They were cool. 01:50:12.399 --> 01:50:15.439 They said, Well, you got some balls coming over here and talking with us. 01:50:15.520 --> 01:50:16.880 I go, What are you gonna do? 01:50:17.039 --> 01:50:17.520 Shoot me? 01:50:18.239 --> 01:50:19.680 You know, big joke. 01:50:20.159 --> 01:50:21.600 Jeff Jeff Ford. 01:50:22.000 --> 01:50:23.680 Jeff Ford was very cool. 01:50:23.840 --> 01:50:28.319 He um see, they became the mafia in a way. 01:50:28.399 --> 01:50:31.920 I mean, they ran the drug trade, they ran the gambling, they ran prostitution. 01:50:32.000 --> 01:50:33.520 That's what they did, okay? 01:50:34.000 --> 01:50:41.600 I wasn't, I was more upset as a prosecutor with the level of violence they can inflict on their own communities. 01:50:41.760 --> 01:50:46.640 That's what bothered me, is the fact that get control of your organization. 01:50:46.880 --> 01:50:49.520 I mean, that's one thing about the crime syndicate. 01:50:50.079 --> 01:50:51.760 They were pretty good shots. 01:50:52.239 --> 01:50:54.159 They went to shoot somebody, they shot the right person. 01:50:54.239 --> 01:50:55.279 These guys were not. 01:50:55.520 --> 01:50:58.560 And that was they were the leaders, so it's their job to get control. 01:50:58.640 --> 01:51:01.920 If they're gonna do this stuff, I wasn't a drug prosecutor. 01:51:02.000 --> 01:51:03.760 I didn't go after drug, that wasn't my thing. 01:51:03.840 --> 01:51:09.039 It was violent offenders, and and the leaders who wouldn't, because we we pled with these guys. 01:51:09.600 --> 01:51:10.720 This is your community. 01:51:10.880 --> 01:51:13.199 They always started out as community organizations. 01:51:13.600 --> 01:51:16.880 I don't know if they did that in LA, but no, they started off with gangs. 01:51:17.119 --> 01:51:17.520 They didn't? 01:51:17.680 --> 01:51:18.800 Yeah, they were just gangs always. 01:51:20.159 --> 01:51:25.920 This was like an organization because they would get funding from the federal government for doing certain things. 01:51:26.399 --> 01:51:27.439 And at times they did. 01:51:27.520 --> 01:51:29.520 You know, they

thought they were Robin Hood or something. 01:51:29.760 --> 01:51:35.600 But the problem is they bring these young guys in and will get out of control, like violent guys. 01:51:36.000 --> 01:51:40.560 And they would just shoot indiscriminately in a park with a bunch of people. 01:51:40.880 --> 01:51:43.039 That was where we drew the line. 01:51:43.119 --> 01:51:43.520 That's it. 01:51:43.680 --> 01:51:48.319 And that's why we would focus on some of the leaders because they had control. 01:51:48.880 --> 01:51:50.560 Get these people under control. 01:51:51.520 --> 01:51:53.600 And that's how I felt about them. 01:51:53.680 --> 01:51:56.800 I mean, I didn't have a personal animus against them. 01:51:57.039 --> 01:52:02.399 I mean, if they would have done what they said they were trying to do to help the community, but they didn't. 01:52:02.720 --> 01:52:09.039 You didn't have anything, you didn't have any involvement in the uh the Larry Hoover prosecution, or you weren't a prosecutor by the time. 01:52:09.119 --> 01:52:15.119 No, but I was I was there when he but he was in in prison when I visited him in 1980, 81. 01:52:15.600 --> 01:52:16.479 He's still there. 01:52:16.720 --> 01:52:17.520 Yeah, I know. 01:52:17.760 --> 01:52:19.359 He's there a long time, man. 01:52:20.159 --> 01:52:22.479 I know that there's a petition to try to get him out. 01:52:22.720 --> 01:52:24.079 I doubt they're gonna let him out. 01:52:24.319 --> 01:52:25.920 Well, I mean, I think they will. 01:52:26.239 --> 01:52:30.560 I I mean, uh then again, things politics play a big role. 01:52:30.640 --> 01:52:31.760 Like see that day. 01:52:32.000 --> 01:52:38.800 Somebody might let the guy that in Minneapolis out that killed uh George Floyd, but they might not let Larry Hoover out. 01:52:38.960 --> 01:52:41.359 Because Larry Hoover had that 21st century vote. 01:52:41.520 --> 01:52:41.760 Yep. 01:52:41.920 --> 01:52:46.239 That's what really kind of changed everything when he got all those registered voters. 01:52:46.479 --> 01:52:47.279 Well, we had a lot of people. 01:52:47.520 --> 01:52:49.439 Yeah, we got everybody to register to vote. 01:52:49.680 --> 01:52:50.880 Because he's straightened out. 01:52:51.039 --> 01:52:52.720 I mean, he is rehabilitated. 01:52:52.800 --> 01:52:53.359 Like, look at you. 01:52:53.439 --> 01:52:54.880 What if they just say keep you in forever? 01:52:54.960 --> 01:52:57.039 Well, what a waste of humanity that is. 01:52:57.279 --> 01:53:05.439 You paid your debt, you did what you you know, what you were asked to do, and you came out 180 degree, but more than that. 01:53:05.600 --> 01:53:08.239 Not just as a turn, but a success. 01:53:08.399 --> 01:53:12.239 And I'm telling you something, man, I've never heard anything like it, to be quite honest. 01:53:12.640 --> 01:53:15.520 And I'm real serious that what you've accomplished. 01:53:15.680 --> 01:53:17.840 And oh, you're talking about you never heard nothing like me. 01:53:18.479 --> 01:53:19.680

I thought you were talking about Larry Hoover. 01:53:19.920 --> 01:53:20.479 No, no, no. 01:53:20.560 --> 01:53:30.079 You, what you did, I'm talking about because I mean I'm I'm really happy to have met you, just the fact that you did it. 01:53:30.239 --> 01:53:31.840 You know, talk is cheap. 01:53:31.920 --> 01:53:39.600 Yeah, you know, and and and you're not just rehabilitated, you re reformed, rehabilitated, and have something to offer. 01:53:39.760 --> 01:53:50.560 And that's why the more you can get on shows, the more you can talk to these people, these young people who are 17, 18, looking to do some, say, listen, man, I've been down that road. 01:53:50.640 --> 01:53:51.520 And you're honest about it. 01:53:51.680 --> 01:53:52.880 You said, Yeah, I was violent. 01:53:53.359 --> 01:53:54.319 You you're telling the truth. 01:53:54.399 --> 01:53:55.199 You're not sugar-coated. 01:53:55.520 --> 01:53:56.479 Like, well, I really wasn't. 01:53:56.560 --> 01:53:57.199 No, I was. 01:53:57.279 --> 01:54:07.199 But here's what happened: I I I funneled my aggression into something that ultimately was good for me, you, and ultimately now good for everybody else. 01:54:07.359 --> 01:54:10.800 And that's what they need to learn: how to funnel aggression. 01:54:11.039 --> 01:54:13.039 It's really passionate in a way, you know. 01:54:13.119 --> 01:54:15.199 It's like I really feel strongly about this. 01:54:15.520 --> 01:54:19.199 Well, quit feeling strongly about things that aren't going to do good. 01:54:19.359 --> 01:54:20.399 Do something that could help people. 01:54:20.720 --> 01:54:28.239 Let me ask you this: is it throughout your years as a prosecutor, is it anything that you regret doing? 01:54:29.039 --> 01:54:29.600 Yeah. 01:54:30.239 --> 01:54:31.760 Seeking the death penalty. 01:54:32.399 --> 01:54:33.359 And did you get it? 01:54:33.520 --> 01:54:34.880 I did it five times. 01:54:35.439 --> 01:54:38.000 And so you put five people down, did all of them die? 01:54:38.239 --> 01:54:38.960 Only one. 01:54:39.199 --> 01:54:41.279 Um I attended it to. 01:54:42.159 --> 01:54:43.680 And it still bothers me. 01:54:43.760 --> 01:54:45.840 I mean, it was only two years ago. 01:54:47.119 --> 01:54:52.560 And uh I was it was a case, guy was it was a murder, the contract killing in Arizona. 01:54:53.600 --> 01:54:54.960 And I got a letter. 01:54:55.119 --> 01:54:59.760 I still have it from uh Attorney General, the governor, said, uh, Greg Owen, Mr. 01:54:59.840 --> 01:55:08.000 Owen, you are cordially invited to be a witness at the cordially invited, which I thought was sick to say it like that. 01:55:08.880 --> 01:55:15.680 And so I called the prosecutor in Arizona that I worked the case with, and he didn't know if he wanted to go either. 01:55:15.760 --> 01:55:22.079 But the woman who survived, she was real old, she couldn't go, so we figured, well, we'll just go on her behalf, so to speak, because we knew her. 01:55:22.159 --> 01:55:24.640 She was way way too old, 86 or something. 01:55:26.720 --> 01:55:34.800 So a month before the execution, uh, NBC in Arizona asked me to come out there and they did an interview. 01:55:34.880 --> 01:55:36.720 It was a three-day series. 01:55:36.880 --> 01:55:40.079 It's still still we can still find it called The Last Hitman. 01:55:40.800 --> 01:55:43.840 And it was about how the Chicago mob was involved in this case. 01:55:44.399 --> 01:55:49.920 And so um we did the thing, and then I I thought it still I didn't think they'd execute him. 01:55:50.079 --> 01:55:52.479 I thought somebody would be a reprieve or something at the last minute. 01:55:52.640 --> 01:55:56.239 The guy was 78, been there for 43 years on death row in Arizona. 01:55:56.560 --> 01:56:03.760 And so when it got right down to it and they the Supreme Court denied it, and this and that, I thought, well, that's my next book. 01:56:03.840 --> 01:56:05.840 See, I'm writing a book about this king. 01:56:06.560 --> 01:56:09.039 I said, Well, you talk about a conclusion. 01:56:09.520 --> 01:56:12.319 I mean, how many people can prosecute a case and be there? 01:56:12.399 --> 01:56:14.079 And I didn't wasn't looking forward to it. 01:56:14.159 --> 01:56:17.279 It was just I want to know how I felt. 01:56:17.680 --> 01:56:18.560 What did I feel like? 01:56:18.640 --> 01:56:21.840 Because I felt really upset the night before I asked the death penalty. 01:56:21.920 --> 01:56:23.920 I went to see my minister at church. 01:56:24.560 --> 01:56:26.000 Am I doing something bad here? 01:56:26.560 --> 01:56:28.800 You know, do I we have a right to do this? 01:56:29.920 --> 01:56:30.880 So I did it. 01:56:31.039 --> 01:56:32.399 And I did it well. 01:56:32.880 --> 01:56:38.000 You know, and it's I don't know if you can know this, but when you do it once, second time it's not quite as hard. 01:56:38.159 --> 01:56:40.720 You know, third, fourth time it's not hard at all. 01:56:40.960 --> 01:56:44.880 But you know, because you're not even really appreciating what's the significance of what you're doing. 01:56:45.039 --> 01:56:46.159 You never really think it's gonna happen. 01:56:46.239 --> 01:56:48.159 Well, now I'm sitting there, it's happening, right? 01:56:48.399 --> 01:56:55.680 It's 24 people in a little room, very small, tight, little they had eight, eight seats, and there were three levels. 01:56:55.840 --> 01:56:58.800 So it was it, it was smaller, a lot smaller than this. 01:56:59.760 --> 01:57:04.079 And the regimentation they went through before they did this was scary, you know. 01:57:04.399 --> 01:57:11.760 Five guys all dressed in the same outfit, black things over their faces, their same hats, packy pants, black gloves. 01:57:11.840 --> 01:57:16.159 I mean, the guy goes one anyway and they take off certain chains. 01:57:17.840 --> 01:57:19.279 And then he takes certain velcro. 01:57:19.520 --> 01:57:23.680 I mean, it was like watching the Marine Corps at arms, right? 01:57:24.159 --> 01:57:25.119

That made me upset. 01:57:25.199 --> 01:57:26.720 I said, This is stupid, you know. 01:57:26.800 --> 01:57:31.279 And he's he's down in the and then they bring and then all of a sudden the curtain opens, and there he is. 01:57:32.399 --> 01:57:33.520 And they botched it. 01:57:34.640 --> 01:57:40.159 They went to do it, they went to put it in his his arm and they couldn't find a vein. 01:57:41.199 --> 01:57:46.079 And so they went for a smartery and they missed in the blood set of squirting. 01:57:46.560 --> 01:57:48.720 And they got these nurses all full of blood. 01:57:49.119 --> 01:57:50.239 They had to close the curtains. 01:57:50.319 --> 01:57:51.760 Two people passed out, I'm like. 01:57:52.560 --> 01:57:54.319 This is the sickest thing I've ever seen. 01:57:54.399 --> 01:57:56.239 Just the whole process. 01:57:56.479 --> 01:58:02.159 It's like what and he's laying there and they got him all mic'd up, you know. 01:58:02.319 --> 01:58:03.600 You could hear him playing his day. 01:58:04.399 --> 01:58:07.359 And there's a female minister priest at his head. 01:58:07.840 --> 01:58:08.720 She's praying. 01:58:09.920 --> 01:58:13.199 Finally, they get him cleaned up, the warden comes in and makes a big announcement. 01:58:13.279 --> 01:58:18.640 You know, there's no appeals, nobody's called us, so we're gonna carry out the order of the court. 01:58:19.439 --> 01:58:22.399 And the guy looked at us and he goes, Let's get it on. 01:58:23.680 --> 01:58:24.880 The dude is about to die. 01:58:26.239 --> 01:58:29.039 He said it just as plainly as they go, let's get it on. 01:58:29.119 --> 01:58:33.119 And then he said, he says, First of all, why y'all motherfuckers wearing all that? 01:58:33.199 --> 01:58:34.079 I know who y'all. 01:58:34.640 --> 01:58:35.680 The guys with the garbage. 01:58:36.159 --> 01:58:37.600 He says, I know every one of y'all. 01:58:39.119 --> 01:58:43.359 And then they started and they had a camera on these three plungers. 01:58:43.920 --> 01:58:47.199 One, you know, each one went down, you know, you could see it. 01:58:48.159 --> 01:58:49.600 And I said, This is sickness. 01:58:49.760 --> 01:58:51.119 I mean, we shouldn't be doing this to people. 01:58:51.279 --> 01:58:51.760 This is not right. 01:58:51.840 --> 01:58:52.479 This is the government. 01:58:52.560 --> 01:58:54.479 And we're showing this as an exhibition. 01:58:54.880 --> 01:58:58.560 And the people were there, they were just friends of the governor or somebody, you know. 01:58:59.199 --> 01:59:00.479 They were asking us for autographs. 01:59:03.520 --> 01:59:06.800 That to me was the sickest thing I've ever heard somebody say. 01:59:06.960 --> 01:59:08.239 Oh, we have your autograph. 01:59:09.039 --> 01:59:12.000 Some guy's ready to get executed and they want my autograph. 01:59:12.159 --> 01:59:13.520 I said, please. 01:59:14.800 --> 01:59:15.199 Please. 01:59:15.600 --> 01:59:20.079 And my guy next to me, the other prosecutor, I can get chills when I think about

this now. 01:59:20.319 --> 01:59:24.800 He said, Man, I don't ever want I am totally against the death penalty. 01:59:25.439 --> 01:59:27.760 And I am way against it now. 01:59:28.000 --> 01:59:28.720 It's not right. 01:59:28.880 --> 01:59:30.239 We don't have a right to do that to people. 01:59:30.319 --> 01:59:36.319 I don't care what they're, I don't care what anybody says, we do not have the right under law to take somebody else's life. 01:59:36.479 --> 01:59:37.920 Life is sacred and precious. 01:59:38.079 --> 01:59:46.239 They may have done something, they're gonna pay for it, and they're gonna pay someday when they go wherever they go, but we don't have a right to do that for on in on somebody's behalf. 01:59:46.479 --> 01:59:48.720 So I got a death row story. 01:59:49.199 --> 01:59:51.199 So I was in Vontier, Missouri. 01:59:51.600 --> 01:59:54.239 Von Tere, Missouri is where they kill the people. 01:59:54.640 --> 01:59:58.079 And I was in the cell with a dude when he got served as death warrant. 01:59:58.399 --> 02:00:00.000 You know, they bring you a death warrant. 02:00:00.239 --> 02:00:02.159 So me and this dude actually got cool. 02:00:02.239 --> 02:00:04.159 He was a cool dude, old dude. 02:00:04.640 --> 02:00:07.039 And um they come to the cell. 02:00:07.119 --> 02:00:10.159 When they come to the cell, they come and uh they call them uh cert. 02:00:10.560 --> 02:00:15.359 You know, the cert where they put on the armor and they got the shield, they got the helmet, they got all of that. 02:00:15.520 --> 02:00:21.359 So they come to the uh cell, it's probably like four or five of them, and they say his name and his number. 02:00:21.439 --> 02:00:22.560 They like come to the door. 02:00:22.640 --> 02:00:23.760 He already knew what it was. 02:00:23.840 --> 02:00:25.359 I didn't know what was going on. 02:00:25.600 --> 02:00:27.359 And they read him his warrant. 02:00:27.439 --> 02:00:33.760 Like, yeah, you got a warrant from the governor of Missouri, you're supposed to be executed at 12.01 a.m. 02:00:34.000 --> 02:00:35.359 on such and such, such and such. 02:00:35.439 --> 02:00:36.640 We're here to serve you your warrant. 02:00:36.720 --> 02:00:38.000 We need you to cuff up. 02:00:38.319 --> 02:00:43.119 And then they open the door, they turn around, they cuff him up, they put him in shackles, and then they walk him out. 02:00:43.600 --> 02:00:49.840 But when the dude, when they came to the door, we just sitting there talking, watching some music videos or something. 02:00:50.000 --> 02:00:52.800 They knock on the door, they turn on the light, he sees him. 02:00:53.199 --> 02:00:55.039 I'm like, man, what the fuck they on? 02:00:55.199 --> 02:00:55.920 He already knew. 02:00:56.159 --> 02:00:57.600 Like, man, they're coming to get me. 02:00:57.760 --> 02:00:59.119 I'm like, man, what you just do? 02:00:59.359 --> 02:01:00.239 I'm a shit talker. 02:01:00.479 --> 02:01:01.600 Ah, man, what you just do? 02:01:01.680 --> 02:01:02.479 Some,

some, some. 02:01:02.800 --> 02:01:05.199 He's like, nah, man, they probably about to read my death warrant. 02:01:05.279 --> 02:01:06.319 I'm like, what the fuck is that? 02:01:06.399 --> 02:01:08.000 He's like, man, you know I'm on death row. 02:01:08.079 --> 02:01:08.800 I said, yeah. 02:01:09.439 --> 02:01:09.920 I'm young. 02:01:10.079 --> 02:01:11.520 You know, I'm like 19, 20. 02:01:11.600 --> 02:01:12.800 I'm like, what the fuck is that? 02:01:13.039 --> 02:01:15.199 He's like, man, death warrant is from the governor. 02:01:15.279 --> 02:01:16.960 They about to kill me tomorrow. 02:01:17.279 --> 02:01:18.880 So I'm like, for real? 02:01:19.279 --> 02:01:23.119 And it's it's not funny, but this is kind of funny. 02:01:23.359 --> 02:01:29.439 Because like, if you in the cell with somebody and they take them to the hole, you like, hey man, what you want me to do with this? 02:01:29.520 --> 02:01:30.960 What you want me to do with your property? 02:01:31.039 --> 02:01:31.439 What you want me? 02:01:31.600 --> 02:01:33.039 I'm gonna holler at you, see you later. 02:01:33.199 --> 02:01:35.279 I don't know what the fuck to tell him. 02:01:35.359 --> 02:01:38.000 I don't even, this conversation was so awkward. 02:01:38.079 --> 02:01:40.079 Because he like, yeah, they about to come and give me. 02:01:40.159 --> 02:01:41.359 So I'm looking like, damn. 02:01:41.760 --> 02:01:43.600 Like, you want me to pack your canteen up? 02:01:43.680 --> 02:01:44.239 You want your food? 02:01:44.399 --> 02:01:45.600 What you, what you, what you like? 02:01:45.680 --> 02:01:46.159 I don't know. 02:01:46.319 --> 02:01:49.600 I don't, at the time, it was like, damn, this is fucked up. 02:01:49.920 --> 02:01:52.960 But I just try to find humor and shit to see. 02:01:53.439 --> 02:01:55.439 I just didn't know what to tell him, what to tell him. 02:01:55.600 --> 02:01:57.119 I can't tell you, I'm gonna see you later. 02:01:57.279 --> 02:02:02.479 I can't be like, hey man, you be cool, you be easy, none of the stereotypical goodbyes. 02:02:02.880 --> 02:02:04.800 I'm just looking like, damn. 02:02:05.039 --> 02:02:06.479 He's like, oh yeah, man. 02:02:06.560 --> 02:02:08.720 And then he's not telling me what to do with the shit. 02:02:08.800 --> 02:02:09.920 He got other stuff on his mind. 02:02:10.159 --> 02:02:13.520 I'm sure he's so I'm just like, man, what you want me to do with this shit? 02:02:13.680 --> 02:02:16.239 Like, you got food and shit, these cold, like, what do you like? 02:02:16.319 --> 02:02:17.199 How did this even go? 02:02:17.359 --> 02:02:21.840 Well, he go to the door, they cuff him up, put him in shackles, he don't say nothing else. 02:02:21.920 --> 02:02:23.680 And then they just walk him out. 02:02:24.000 --> 02:02:27.279 But this is how crazy Bon Terra was. 02:02:28.000 --> 02:02:34.319 So they always it's always a party when they execute somebody in the penitentiary. 02:02:34.960 --> 02:02:35.920 I'm sorry. 02:02:42.479 --> 02:02:42.800 Okay.

02:02:43.279 --> 02:02:47.520 So they throw a party when they execute somebody in the penitentiary. 02:02:47.600 --> 02:02:50.560 I don't know if they do it anywhere else, but Yeah, they do separate the extra. 02:02:50.720 --> 02:02:50.960 Yeah. 02:02:51.199 --> 02:02:58.399 So uh when they came to get him, the next day, they'll always lock us down early. 02:02:58.560 --> 02:02:58.800 Yep. 02:02:58.960 --> 02:03:02.640 Like around three, four o'clock, they'll lock the whole penitentiary down. 02:03:02.880 --> 02:03:07.279 But we knew somebody was dying because they'll always give us a certain meal. 02:03:07.439 --> 02:03:10.159 They'll give us hamburgers, they give us cheese. 02:03:10.399 --> 02:03:11.680 We never get cheeseburgers. 02:03:11.760 --> 02:03:13.600 Ever do they put cheese on the hamburgers? 02:03:13.840 --> 02:03:19.279 They'll give us cheeseburgers, tater tots, and homemade chocolate chip cookies. 02:03:19.520 --> 02:03:21.359 That's when you know somebody's getting killed. 02:03:21.439 --> 02:03:28.159 And they'll shut the yard down roughly around three or four o'clock, and then the CEOs actually have a party. 02:03:28.399 --> 02:03:31.359 Not like a, I don't, I've never been to the party, but I heard about it. 02:03:31.439 --> 02:03:41.279 They'll have like a celebration or the state one, and they'll have music and little snacks and all of this old type of shit, and then they'll kill them. 02:03:41.520 --> 02:03:45.760 And then another another thing they did, they cut the uh the cable off. 02:03:45.840 --> 02:03:46.239 Yeah. 02:03:46.479 --> 02:03:53.119 They always cut the cable off so we don't know when or because you know it's gonna be in the news about them uh getting executed. 02:03:53.279 --> 02:03:55.520 They'll cut the cable off for probably about 24 hours. 02:03:55.600 --> 02:04:01.039 You can't watch TV, then they'll feed you this, and then they'll lock us down, and then they'll come and get the person. 02:04:01.359 --> 02:04:05.600 Because in Missouri, uh there's five levels, custody levels. 02:04:05.760 --> 02:04:08.479 One, two, three, four, five, five is the highest custody level. 02:04:08.640 --> 02:04:13.119 But right before you're about to die, that last 24 hours, they consider you a level six. 02:04:13.359 --> 02:04:21.119 And when you're a level six, everything has to be locked down when they move you from your cell to wherever you're going, and then they'll execute you. 02:04:21.279 --> 02:04:23.680 But I was in the cell with a person when they uh execute. 02:04:23.920 --> 02:04:28.880 I didn't know if they killed him, but I know he didn't come back to the cell, and the next day we got the cheeseburgers. 02:04:29.039 --> 02:04:30.399 Well, then you know what happened then, man. 02:04:30.640 --> 02:04:34.079 Yeah, so they they they had uh they had killed him, but that was hella. 02:04:34.479 --> 02:04:40.159 So when you're talking about, I didn't see it, but just like from You saw the part before you saw the part. 02:04:40.479 --> 02:04:42.960 I saw where we were given the whole story basically. 02:04:43.760 --> 02:04:48.640 Um I just want to tell you, um, it's almost like an honor. 02:04:48.720 --> 02:04:53.439 I know that sounds corny, but I'm not a corny person, so I can say it, uh, to meet you. 02:04:53.760 --> 02:04:57.520 Because I always wondered myself as a prosecutor what would happen. 02:04:57.600 --> 02:05:04.000 You know, I prosecuted plenty of 18, 19-year-old young men, and they were given lengthy prison sentences. 02:05:04.239 --> 02:05:08.239 And now for myself, I often wondered, you know, I wonder what really happened. 02:05:08.319 --> 02:05:10.079 You know, what did they do with themselves? 02:05:10.479 --> 02:05:12.000 Did they did something happen to them? 02:05:12.159 --> 02:05:13.680 Did they change to get better? 02:05:13.840 --> 02:05:18.159 I I did feel sorry for the families of the bad people, the defendants. 02:05:18.239 --> 02:05:18.479 I did. 02:05:18.560 --> 02:05:23.840 I felt really bad for the victims, but I also, you know, the mom, everybody's got a mom. 02:05:24.399 --> 02:05:29.199 And um that used to make me feel really sad because they lost someone too. 02:05:30.159 --> 02:05:54.800 So to see someone who came through all that and was prosecuted by a prosecutor like me for committing a murder like I did, and that they um took what happened to them and turned it around so dramatically and offer something for society that's uh very important, especially today, more than ever. 02:05:55.039 --> 02:05:56.640 I want to applaud you for that. 02:05:57.680 --> 02:05:58.479 Thank you. 02:05:59.439 --> 02:06:05.359 Uh let me let me uh let me tell you something real quick too. 02:06:05.520 --> 02:06:12.319 Uh thank you for being even willing to sit down with somebody we said is an ex-gang member. 02:06:12.640 --> 02:06:16.880 Because you you're not from here and you don't know what could go down. 02:06:17.039 --> 02:06:19.920 But you, you know, he may have some type of attachment to that. 02:06:20.079 --> 02:06:22.079 So for you to even have the courage to do that. 02:06:22.159 --> 02:06:27.359 I mean, I know you dealt with a lot of stuff, but you in a whole nother city, and so that was dope. 02:06:27.439 --> 02:06:29.840 We threw the idea and you was like, bring it on. 02:06:30.000 --> 02:06:31.199 So that was dope. 02:06:31.359 --> 02:06:38.159 So in closing, we're gonna ask you to leave us marked out for the uh leave the world marked out with some words. 02:06:38.479 --> 02:06:39.119 Just say what? 02:06:39.279 --> 02:06:44.239 Marked out like just some words for the minds and the hearts for people to stick to their minds and their hearts. 02:06:44.399 --> 02:06:44.720 Okay. 02:06:45.039 --> 02:06:45.439 Yep. 02:06:45.600 --> 02:06:48.399 Yeah, just the camera, talking to the world. 02:06:48.640 --> 02:07:01.119 Okay, so I want to say something that I've learned uh over my lifetime, particularly as a prosecutor, and that says it's this obstacles don't mean defeat, as we've heard. 02:07:01.279 --> 02:07:06.960 Uh, they mean sometimes you have to work harder, think differently, and never give up. 02:07:07.199 --> 02:07:08.720 And I think that's important. 02:07:08.800 --> 02:07:16.239 And, you know, as we say, character isn't revealed when life is easy, it's revealed when given doing the right thing can cost you a lot. 02:07:16.319 --> 02:07:20.000 And I think people have to remember that and don't hide your integrity. 02:07:20.159 --> 02:07:23.199 You know, don't don't be different when your people aren't seeing you. 02:07:23.279 --> 02:07:24.319 You got to show it to. 02:07:25.119 --> 02:07:39.920 So I think that um my my my my my thought about everything I've been through is that we're all people, we make mistakes, we try to do the right thing, and we, you know, hopefully are led by a higher being. 02:07:40.079 --> 02:07:41.840 In my case, it's with the Lord. 02:07:42.079 --> 02:07:47.359 And I've always conducted myself that way, and it's really um done well for me. 02:07:47.439 --> 02:07:53.920 And I've always believed so and even as a prosecutor, you know, my biggest fear was am I prosecuting an innocent person? 02:07:54.079 --> 02:07:55.680 And I couldn't live with that. 02:07:55.840 --> 02:08:00.720 So I felt good about what I did, and um, I felt good about what I heard here today. 02:08:00.880 --> 02:08:01.760 I couldn't feel better. 02:08:01.840 --> 02:08:05.920 So I'm pleased that I had the opportunity to be with you all here today. 02:08:06.079 --> 02:08:06.800 Thanks again. 02:08:07.039 --> 02:08:09.760 The goal is to leave a lashing imprint on their minds and their hearts. 02:08:09.840 --> 02:08:11.680 We pray you've been indelibly marked. 02:08:19.359 --> 02:08:20.159 I didn't know if you wanted to. 02:08:20.319 --> 02:08:20.960 No, no, no. 02:08:21.199 --> 02:08:22.800 I was I was gonna I was gonna say something funny. 02:08:22.880 --> 02:08:24.159 I had something funny, I was about to stop.