النص الكامل لحلقة How Operation Sindoor Redefined Indian Warfare | In Our Defence |S3 | Ep 50

course talk about that. But I 73 00:03:56.960 --> 00:04:01.400 think over the last couple of decades, see how it 74 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:04.360 started is that in the eighties, And this is what 75 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:07.879 we've been talking in previous episodes. When in the eighties 76 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:13.759 when Pakistan got nuclear weapons, which is you know when 77 00:04:14.199 --> 00:04:17.120 eighty four, it's almost four decades when they got their 78 00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:20.160 nuclear weapons, they had a couple of them bombs in 79 00:04:20.199 --> 00:04:23.759 the basement. The Chinese had tested it for them. What 80 00:04:24.040 --> 00:04:28.839 began shaping in jhq rabal Pindi, which is the headquarters 81 00:04:28.879 --> 00:04:33.319 of the Pakistan military, is a sword and shield strategy 82 00:04:33.959 --> 00:04:38.439 which began with General Zia when he got the bomb. 83 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:41.399 And then you go on to his successor, a very 84 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:45.959 influential and very less studied army chief called General Misys 85 00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:48.920 Islambag and he is the one who kind of crafted 86 00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:55.360 this strategy of protecting these non conventional assets of theirs, 87 00:04:55.759 --> 00:04:58.839 that is your terrorist proxies with nuclear weapons, and that 88 00:04:59.399 --> 00:05:02.240 kept getting the fined over the years. Musheroff of course 89 00:05:02.279 --> 00:05:05.160 took it to a new level and Muni has continued 90 00:05:05.160 --> 00:05:10.079 that strategy until now. India did not have any effective 91 00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:13.439 response for this. We had a conventional response in the 92 00:05:13.480 --> 00:05:17.800 sense that you would mobilize your web, you know, army 93 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:21.040 and threatened to strike at Pakistan. And the biggest example 94 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:24.000 of that was after the attack on Parliament two thousand 95 00:05:24.040 --> 00:05:28.720 and one. You mobilize the entire Indian army and then 96 00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:30.680 you had to demobilize and you had to, you know, 97 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:34.959 withdraw them from the borders on some very you know, 98 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:38.000 flimsy mission accomplished grounds, but the fact is that you 99 00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:41.519 did not achieve your objectives, your aims at that time 100 00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:45.639 because you simply had no way of punishing Pakistan for 101 00:05:45.920 --> 00:05:50.720 supporting terror or even destroying a terrorist infrastructure inside Pakistan. 102 00:05:51.319 --> 00:05:53.439 So when you cut to that and you come to Sindhur, 103 00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:58.480 in fact, you start at ten years back. You start 104 00:05:58.519 --> 00:06:02.480 at the cross border rates. After the Uri terror attack, 105 00:06:02.920 --> 00:06:06.680 you have one set of shallow cross border attacks using commandos. 106 00:06:07.079 --> 00:06:10.600 Then in nineteen in response to another terror attack, that 107 00:06:10.759 --> 00:06:16.079 is the Pulwama suicide bombing where FORTYCRPF troopers were killed, 108 00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:21.839 you have one attack on Jaba top in Balakot Mirajas 109 00:06:21.879 --> 00:06:26.560 go in and drop PGB precision guided bombs. That's a 110 00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:28.879 one off attack, right, the first time that we've crossed 111 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:33.399 international borders to attack a terrorist camp. And now with 112 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:37.160 Sindhur in twenty twenty five, you have a larger set 113 00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:41.639 of attacks, retaliatory attacks across the linked and breadth of 114 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:47.360 Pakistan then, which actually begin as attacks on terrorist infrastructure, 115 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:51.839 which then go on to striking in the Pakistan military establishment, 116 00:06:51.879 --> 00:06:55.279 infrastructure and all. But it's important to note that these 117 00:06:55.279 --> 00:06:59.040 are not major escalatory moves in the sense that it's 118 00:06:59.079 --> 00:07:02.720 a gradual move up the escalation ladder, and at each 119 00:07:02.839 --> 00:07:06.160 level you've given Pakistan the option to de escalate. So 120 00:07:06.199 --> 00:07:09.439 I think what we've seen last year in May twenty 121 00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:15.480 twenty five is not just a very considered strategy to 122 00:07:15.519 --> 00:07:20.920 tackle terrorist attacks emanating from Pakistan. How to target the 123 00:07:20.920 --> 00:07:24.959 infrastructure of terrorism that exists in Pakistan. And most importantly, 124 00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:28.879 and this is something that my friend and colleague Kern 125 00:07:28.920 --> 00:07:32.720 lovers to keep saying, selection and maintenance of aim. You know, 126 00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:35.959 that is the fundamental building block of any military operation. 127 00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:39.160 You select your aim and then you just go for it. 128 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:42.839 Don't get caught off by too many other things, and 129 00:07:42.920 --> 00:07:44.839 which is I think all of these worked to the 130 00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:50.480 Indian leadership's credit last year when they identified what the 131 00:07:50.519 --> 00:07:55.399 aim was, which was to tell Pakistan that supporting terrorism 132 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:59.639 cannot be a low cost option to strike a terrorist infrastructure, 133 00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:03.199 to strike at the military infrastructure in Pakistan only after 134 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:06.439 we were hit. So in that's and there's huge messaging. 135 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:08.639 And then finally you had the Prime Minister coming out 136 00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:13.240 in twelfth of May, which I thought was interesting because 137 00:08:13.319 --> 00:08:17.160 it was just on the anniversary of the pokeron Blast 138 00:08:17.199

--> 00:08:19.519 of nineteen ninety eight and what he said there those 139 00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:22.959 that speech of his I think will go down, at 140 00:08:23.040 --> 00:08:25.680 least in the strategic community, it will be one of 141 00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:28.279 the most significant speeches made by an Indian Prime minister 142 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:32.600 because he spelt out this new dynamic where how India 143 00:08:32.600 --> 00:08:36.879 would tackle terrorism emanating from Pakistan and Sindur is actually 144 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:41.039 the big picture that we saw, where how we would 145 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:45.159 you know, deploy this escalation ladder to strike at terrorism 146 00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:48.279 emanating from Pakistan and we would not be deterred by 147 00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:51.799 nuclear weapons the presence of the Pakistan military. We would 148 00:08:51.799 --> 00:08:54.320 find a way of even striking the Pakistan military. You're 149 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:56.840 not afraid of doing that even using missiles and the 150 00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:01.159 air force. Yes, so I think in that sense Sindhu 151 00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:08.200 was a landmark military operation. And if you see war 152 00:09:08.360 --> 00:09:14.159 warfare after Sindhu in you know, not Russia Ukraine, but 153 00:09:14.200 --> 00:09:16.799 because that's an unending war literally, but you see it 154 00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:21.399 in Iran, US, Iran, Israel, you see you know, echoes 155 00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:23.960 of that in these conflicts as well. So we are 156 00:09:23.960 --> 00:09:26.639 literally like the first people to come out with it, 157 00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:30.960 non contact kinetic warfare. We established the benchmark over there 158 00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:35.039 and conflict termination, yeah, which terminated. Yeah, I think it's 159 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:37.000 the most important thing. I think if you ask me otherwise, 160 00:09:37.399 --> 00:09:42.080 you risk the you know, you ran the danger of 161 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:45.279 getting caught into this unending war. It would go on 162 00:09:45.559 --> 00:09:47.960 and you know, you'd keep striking in pakistaniy'd strike you, 163 00:09:48.360 --> 00:09:52.519 or they would pull other countries in. But it's they 164 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:54.720 did what they thought was in their national interest on 165 00:09:54.759 --> 00:09:57.960 the tenth May when they asked for a ceasfire Pakistan 166 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:00.120 sid enough is enough, and then they continued the I 167 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:02.919 think in a different domain, which is a narrative warfare, 168 00:10:02.960 --> 00:10:05.120 and that also you know, we kind of spoken. But 169 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:08.519 if you look at it purely from a military, kinetic, 170 00:10:09.320 --> 00:10:13.799 strategic messaging operation. I think we achieved most of our 171 00:10:14.200 --> 00:10:15.080 objectives with this.

172 00:10:15.159 --> 00:10:16.440 Yeah, yeah, good. 173 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:18.639 Point about you know the importance of picking a or 174 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:21.080 aims and sticking to it. And I think that Iran, 175 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:23.000 the Iran War is a very good example of that, 176 00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:26.720 where the US seems have to have lost sense of 177 00:10:26.759 --> 00:10:29.039 what its actual aims were because of which it's so 178 00:10:29.159 --> 00:10:31.720 sort of going going around in circles figuring out how 179 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:34.480 to end this, end this conflict which. 180 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:36.799 Is pause right now. But you know, games have not 181 00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:38.200 really really I mean. 182 00:10:38.200 --> 00:10:41.159 Rubio seem to indicate that it's over, the pinetic phases over, 183 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:43.759 but you never know. I mean, you know, Trump Man 184 00:10:43.879 --> 00:10:45.799 just come out and override him and say that, you know, 185 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:47.639 Rubio is exceeded as brief or something. 186 00:10:47.679 --> 00:10:49.679 But I mean, in fact, yesterday Trump said I'm going 187 00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:51.840 to get ships out of Hormuzondy said, hey, hey, I'm 188 00:10:51.919 --> 00:10:53.759 going to do that because you RAN's behaving nicely. 189 00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:58.080 So all right, so great. 190 00:10:58.399 --> 00:10:58.559 Uh. 191 00:10:58.759 --> 00:11:00.240 Something I want to talk about something that. 192 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:05.320 We've uh referred to briefly on this episode multiple times. 193 00:11:05.879 --> 00:11:07.879 You've i think written about this or are going to 194 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:10.559 write about this for for the for our website as well. 195 00:11:11.399 --> 00:11:14.279 Is what I think options ind I won't say exposed 196 00:11:14.279 --> 00:11:16.600 per se, because this is something that's a reality. It's 197 00:11:16.679 --> 00:11:19.600 it's been existing for for for ages. But it put 198 00:11:19.639 --> 00:11:22.720 the focus on, brought the focus on. Rather, is Pakistan's 199 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:28.480 lack of geographical depth something that referred to? So you know, 200 00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:30.639 I even back and look to the map, so it's 201 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:32.480 quite if you, if you, if you, if you see, 202 00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:34.519 if you see it, it's very obvious. Something that hasn't 203 00:11:34.600 --> 00:11:37.200 struck you so much up until options Indur, but it should, 204 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:40.480 you know, be very fairly striking Pakistan. I think if 205 00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:42.559 you look at east West, I think all of it 206 00:11:42.639 --> 00:11:46.240 is around six hundred or seven hundred kilometers uh and 207 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:50.000 uh what India has been able to show din options 208 00:11:50.039 --> 00:11:53.000 in lu Risky you can easily target around one third 209 00:11:53.279 --> 00:11:56.720 of that land with either your air force or with 210 00:11:57.000 --> 00:11:59.639 your ground based UH missile force. 211 00:12:00.200 --> 00:12:00.919 So on Meetain. 212 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:03.000 For example, if you look at the map of the 213 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:05.879 air bases that the Air Force in the Internet was 214 00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:08.799 struck in Pakistan, they are run all the way from 215 00:12:08.879 --> 00:12:14.840 north to all these Yeah, OK, right down. Tell me 216 00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:19.679 what is this lack of geographical depth that Pakistan is 217 00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:22.799 afflicted with which it can't really do much about because 218 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:25.759 that's geography, right unless it sort of invade Afghanistan and 219 00:12:25.799 --> 00:12:31.120 takes over half of of that land. So what is 220 00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:34.879 this lack of lack of depth? And second, very importantly, 221 00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:39.600 is it now that we have advanced systems like the 222 00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:42.480 S four hundred, uh, there are fil fighter jet with 223 00:12:42.559 --> 00:12:46.840 the Meteor beyond visual range missile missiles UH and the 224 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:50.759 Ramo superstoning missiles. Do you need to have technology? Do 225 00:12:50.799 --> 00:12:53.799 you need to have military equipment like this for you 226 00:12:53.960 --> 00:12:56.960 to be able to exploit Pakistan's disadvantage? 227 00:12:57.000 --> 00:12:57.159 Yeah? 228 00:12:57.200 --> 00:13:00.320 Absolutely, And I think you know, one of the reasons 229 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:04.840 why this is, you know, the geography of Pakistan is 230 00:13:04.840 --> 00:13:08.200 a problem right now, is that you know, it was 231 00:13:08.799 --> 00:13:12.399 maybe in the seventies or eighties, it might have been 232 00:13:12.440 --> 00:13:15.039 an asset to have your basis, you know, strung along 233 00:13:15.080 --> 00:13:18.559 the international border, you know, because you had aircraft that 234 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:21.320 had barely any you know, Make twenty one was like 235 00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:23.960 your top fighter aircraft like fifty years back, which had 236 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:26.840 one hour you know, flying in durance a little over 237 00:13:26.919 --> 00:13:29.960 an hour. But now when you're looking at it fifty 238 00:13:30.039 --> 00:13:33.360 years later, the march of technology, you know, you have 239 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:39.320 this persistent overwatch through satellites, through drones. And you have missiles, right, 240 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:42.159 you have missiles like the promos, you have hypersonic missiles 241 00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:46.320 coming up a territory that seemed to be you know, 242 00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:50.559 beyond your reach. It now it At one point, if 243 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:52.799 I could describe it, it was like a you know, 244

00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:57.840 a large area, a vast geographical area. But now because 245 00:13:57.879 --> 00:14:01.720 of technology, you're able to convert into a barrel. It's 246 00:14:01.759 --> 00:14:05.159 literally you're looking at it like that, and every part 247 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:09.720 of that location, which is about seven hundred thousand square kilometers, 248 00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:14.320 is covered by your observation and your strike and you 249 00:14:14.360 --> 00:14:16.519 can do this. And this is what I think we 250 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:19.399 showed during operations Sindur was that you had the ability 251 00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:24.159 to strike at targets without crossing the international border, non contact, 252 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:28.200 non kinetic warfare. So it's completely changed the dynamic of warfare. 253 00:14:28.600 --> 00:14:31.399 And those assets that you mentioned, of course the rafiles 254 00:14:31.399 --> 00:14:34.440 there with a meteor, but also these two other very 255 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:37.840 significant assets, this S four hundred, which we discussed in 256 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:42.039 the last episode of In Our Defense and the BrahMos 257 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:46.279 to Russian origin weapons, where the S four hundred, which 258 00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:50.279 is an air defense system, has the ability to deny airspace, 259 00:14:50.360 --> 00:14:53.000 not just protect your airspace, but deny the adversary the 260 00:14:53.120 --> 00:14:56.919 use of his airspace. It's such a long range precision 261 00:14:57.000 --> 00:15:01.000 weapon three hundred kilometers and Brumos which has the ability 262 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:03.679 to go to about eight hundred kilometers, so you have 263 00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:05.799 the ability to cover all of Pakistan. Then it's only 264 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:08.519 a matter of how many missiles do you have versus 265 00:15:08.559 --> 00:15:11.679 how many targets he has, right, so you have the 266 00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:14.519 ability to paralyze him without actually going in for the 267 00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:19.080 old kind of what you had armored trusts across the desert, 268 00:15:19.080 --> 00:15:22.159 as General Sundar jenvisaged it. You know, during our brass 269 00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:24.799 tacks you have too multiple trusts and all. But of 270 00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:27.679 course the objectives there are entirely different. Fent was of 271 00:15:27.799 --> 00:15:31.799 you know, capturing territory and all of that. But I 272 00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:34.679 think in today's times it's very clear. The leadership is 273 00:15:34.759 --> 00:15:36.960 very clear. It is our leadership is very clear that 274 00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:42.639 wars were fought for getting territory. Might not be such 275 00:15:42.679 --> 00:15:46.000 a good idea at least presently. Who knows about the future, 276 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:49.200 but as of now, they do not see us

fighting 277 00:15:49.279 --> 00:15:52.720 wars for capturing territory or so now because of technology 278 00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:55.759 and the ability that you've seen a use case of 279 00:15:55.799 --> 00:15:59.720 it in Obsindour. But there will be future and you know, 280 00:16:01.080 --> 00:16:05.559 problems like this where you will have terrorist attacks and 281 00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:08.480 the perpetrators will be hiding across the border and you 282 00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:10.919 want to punish them, then you have these kind of 283 00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:13.480 weapons to strike at them. So I think that has 284 00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:18.000 been the big lesson from Obsindura and the entire paradigm 285 00:16:18.039 --> 00:16:22.440 of war fighting because of these technological tools like ballistic missiles, 286 00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:28.360 conventional ballistic missiles, missiles like the BrahMos, the S four hundred, 287 00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:31.480 And this is not a very India specific thing. It's 288 00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:36.399 happening across the world. Look at what Iran has done. 289 00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:39.720 I mean, it's actually held the most powerful country in 290 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:44.480 the world at bay for nearly two months now, right, 291 00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:46.600 I mean instead of the Hormos is a different matter. 292 00:16:46.679 --> 00:16:48.720 But if you look at the way they have been 293 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:52.320 able to strike at multiple targets across starting from the 294 00:16:52.360 --> 00:16:56.000 Mediterranean right up to the Arabian Sea, all the GCC 295 00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:59.200 countries were targeted, all the military infrastructure has been targeted. 296 00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:01.840 This is the first time in the history of warfare. 297 00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:06.240 I think, I don't think I'm mistaken on this that 298 00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:10.640 one country has simultaneously attacked so many countries across nearly 299 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:14.079 two thousand kilometers. So you know, technology today allows you 300 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:17.839 to do that. You have missiles, you have drones, so 301 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:20.680 even countries that even don't have an air force are 302 00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:24.160 able to imagine damage. Yeah, Iran, and you know Trump 303 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:26.279 keeps saying that that they don't have an FOS, they 304 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:29.119 don't have a navy. These are all old war fighting 305 00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:32.039 paradigms seen from the perspective of countries Like I'm not 306 00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:33.839 saying you don't need a navy, you don't need an 307 00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:37.240 air force. You do need them, but your options of 308 00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:41.920 sending the navy and the air force are not as 309 00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:45.359 pressing on you as it is. This is far easier. 310 00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:48.119 This is a far easier way for you to prosecute 311 00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:52.119 war fighting rather than you know, sending your warships into 312 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:55.119 harms Way or your fighter jets into harms way. You 313 00:17:55.160 --> 00:17:58.440 can launch these salvos of missiles and you know, drone 314 00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:04.079 attacks overall your adverse, which is what the Iranians have done, 315 00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:08.680 and it's optimum war fighting. You optimize it to your 316 00:18:08.839 --> 00:18:14.440 capabilities and your need to preserve your own forces, hold 317 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:18.519 it in reserve while you expend your one way attack 318 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:22.920 munitionitions or your cruise missiles or ballistic missiles and all that. 319 00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:25.759 So I think this has created a very big paradigm 320 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:32.039 for countries that have built their entire armed forces for 321 00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:35.920 a kind of war fighting that doesn't exist anymore. And 322 00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:39.720 it's these are voices coming out of the United States. 323 00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:45.200 They've built this massive military machine over sixty or seventy years, 324 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:48.839 which was meant to fight in adversary that no longer exists, 325 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:54.359 that is the USSR, which they thought they can reshape 326 00:18:54.440 --> 00:18:58.079 and reorient to fight the new adversary, which is China. 327 00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:00.920 But then they discovered that their nuverse he's moving ahead 328 00:19:01.079 --> 00:19:04.279 with drones and hypersonic missiles. Now they need to catch 329 00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:07.759 up to you know, find this this march of technologies 330 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:11.240 is brutal. And you've seen it in Russia, Ukraine, you know. 331 00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:16.279 And I go back to this. The first demo that 332 00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:21.759 I got of swarm warfare was it was it was 333 00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:27.640 for India today television battlecry. We this was twenty twenty one. 334 00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:32.039 This friend of mine who runs this thing, he's a friend. 335 00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:35.839 Now we first met him. Then turn my Wankar bought 336 00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:39.359 Lave Dynamics. He says, come, I'll show you something. Aeti Delhi, 337 00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:43.240 one of their playgrounds of football field. He just lined 338 00:19:43.319 --> 00:19:46.839 up all these swarm drones and he just demonstrated he 339 00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:48.559 was flying them together. It was a couple of three 340 00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:50.759 hundred drones, I think together, and he said, this is 341 00:19:50.799 --> 00:19:53.480 a swarm. He said, this is the future of war fighting. 342 00:19:54.119 --> 00:19:57.400 So you know, from twenty twenty two at Delhi and 343 00:19:57.440 -->

00:20:00.319 within a few months you saw this Russia Ukraine and 344 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:04.799 today you have you know, first person view drones. I mean, 345 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:07.359 it's tragic if you look at it, the kind of 346 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:10.319 videos that are coming out of Russia Ukraine, like individual 347 00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:14.839 soldiers are being hunted down by you know, these kamikazi drones, 348 00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:18.720 these first person new drones. You're literally looking into the 349 00:20:18.759 --> 00:20:22.200 eyes of your adversary as you kill him. You know, 350 00:20:22.279 --> 00:20:26.440 it's that horrible, this kind of videos. But that's how 351 00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:29.440 that's where technology has brought you. And we're seeing it 352 00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:32.640 all around us, right, so you can kind of close 353 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:34.400 your eyes and say, no, no, this is not thing. 354 00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:37.359 I will fight the way I'm you know, meant to 355 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:39.400 fight with, you know, all the tools of the old thing, 356 00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:42.000 and I need those old tools to fight the today's 357 00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:45.200 wars around that. Maybe not, maybe you need to fight 358 00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:50.279 today's and tomorrow's wars with new tools, you know, or 359 00:20:50.319 --> 00:20:51.920 find new users for. 360 00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:55.960 Your old tools, right right, you know, taking the point 361 00:20:56.119 --> 00:21:00.359 of Pakistan's lack of geographical depth a bit forward and 362 00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:03.960 moving it to the maritime domain, because that's not we 363 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:06.920 didn't really see any action. Not a lot of actions 364 00:21:07.160 --> 00:21:10.200 happened during the four days of operations in the UH 365 00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:13.039 And I want to I want your thoughts on whether 366 00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:15.119 you would agree with me when I say that, you know, 367 00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:19.000 when it comes to Pakistan, the smallest of your three services, 368 00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:22.119 the Navy, is actually the most lethal, which is probably 369 00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:25.720 why India chose not to use it a lot during 370 00:21:25.720 --> 00:21:29.079 at least the initial phases of operations. We know for 371 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:32.359 a fact that in the escalation ladder that the leadership 372 00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:35.359 had the military leadership had had planned out it was 373 00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:37.440 going to be at some at some point. 374 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:39.359 This is something ADM promo. 375 00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:44.839 If i'm if I'm said at a PC that the 376 00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:46.359 Navy was very much part of. 377 00:21:46.359 --> 00:21:49.720 This lad I actually spoke about the escalation ladder. Ladder 378 00:21:49.880 --> 00:21:50.240 worked out. 379 00:21:50.680 --> 00:21:53.279 So yeah, So back to my question, back back to 380 00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:55.599 my thesis that would you agree when it comes to 381 00:21:55.640 --> 00:21:59.160 Pakistan that our navy, the Indian Navy, is the most 382 00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:02.200 lethal because it can really hold that country hostage. 383 00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:04.960 Yeah, it is, there's no doubt about it. Because you know, 384 00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:07.880 when you're looking at the geography of Pakistan, it's like, 385 00:22:08.839 --> 00:22:11.519 you know, two ends of Pakistan are like this l right, 386 00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:15.079 so this is your line of control and this is 387 00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:18.960 the international border, and this is the maritime boundary, which 388 00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:21.359 is about it's about a thousand kilometers. They have a 389 00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:24.920 sea coast of trade. It's just straight right, they're no hide. 390 00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:27.079 You can't hide exactly. You're on the open. You're just 391 00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:29.920 faced with the Arabian Cea over there. Now, look at 392 00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:33.119 the geography just a couple of one hundred kilometers to 393 00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:38.759 Pakistan's west, which is Iran. Iran has shaped its war 394 00:22:38.839 --> 00:22:42.240 fighting according to its terrain and geography. They've got the 395 00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:44.359 worst navy in the world. Probably got a couple of 396 00:22:44.440 --> 00:22:46.839 ships they beat up. They sank one of their frigates, 397 00:22:46.839 --> 00:22:51.559 a very tragic thing with the US sank off Sri Lanka. 398 00:22:51.640 --> 00:22:54.559 But that was the Knekey navy, you know. But the 399 00:22:54.599 --> 00:22:58.640 actual thing, the navy with a bite other speedboats. Yes, 400 00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:01.440 so you know, Trum keeps saying Trump and he said, 401 00:23:01.480 --> 00:23:04.519 they've got this thing with numbers. So they say, you know, 402 00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:06.680 we've sung one hundred and fifty ships, or you've run 403 00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:09.599 the Iranian navies at the bottom of the sea. And 404 00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:11.720 I keep saying, that's not the Iranian navy. The Iranian 405 00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:15.160 navy is the speedboats. Those are. That is a tactic 406 00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:18.880 that they have perfected, knowing, you know, working around the geography. 407 00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:24.200 They know they sit on the most valuable maritime stretch 408 00:23:24.359 --> 00:23:27.880 anywhere in the world, right one of only seven choke points. 409 00:23:28.839 --> 00:23:32.200 This is a country that has worked on its strategy 410 00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:36.640 around maritime choke points. There are seven maritime choke points 411 00:23:36.680 --> 00:23:40.480 in the world. Iran directly controls one, yes, and it 412 00:23:40.519 --> 00:23:43.920 has the

ability to influence two others. And it possibly 413 00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:47.960 this is a hypothesis, but I mean, I've done the 414 00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:51.440 thing on missile ranges. It possibly has the ability to 415 00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:54.680 target of fourth, which is the Strait of Bosphorus near Turkey, 416 00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:58.160 which links the Black Seat to the Mediterranean. Think of 417 00:23:58.200 --> 00:24:01.319 it that one country has built up all its capabilities 418 00:24:01.319 --> 00:24:05.960 to regulate marinetime traffic to its strategic interests. So they've 419 00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:10.519 used that, They've played on their strings. See what Pakistan 420 00:24:10.599 --> 00:24:13.359 did was that they've created a navy. They got those 421 00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:18.359 seed denial assets. They were the first to introduce submarines here, 422 00:24:18.599 --> 00:24:21.319 by the way, very way ahead of that time. In 423 00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:24.920 the sixties they got an American submarine. Now, what happens 424 00:24:25.240 --> 00:24:28.640 is that the Gazi the Pianis ghazi Ad which sank 425 00:24:28.680 --> 00:24:32.960 of Chaka Patama, was sunk by Us of Shaka Patnam 426 00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:37.559 in seventy one second or third of December. Now coming 427 00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:40.960 back to twenty twenty five, with a sea coast of 428 00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:43.799 a nearly thousand kilometers is open to the sea, you 429 00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:46.559 have no defense. You can't run, you can't hide. The 430 00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:50.039 missiles that are going to come at you necessarily will 431 00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:53.519 not necessarily come from the sea. They could come from 432 00:24:53.559 --> 00:24:56.799 the land. It would come from Gujara exactly. You could 433 00:24:56.839 --> 00:25:01.640 have naval coast batteries firing straight along the and destroying 434 00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:05.440 all your ports and harbors and ensuring not one ship 435 00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:11.000 or submarine goes out to see So you're seriously challenged geographically, right, 436 00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:15.920 you don't have a counter to this strategy. Now, that 437 00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:20.799 explains why Field Marshall Muneir went to southi Abia, why 438 00:25:20.839 --> 00:25:23.720 he went to the United States. It is to compensate 439 00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:27.000 for this lack of geographical depth. That look, I know 440 00:25:27.079 --> 00:25:30.599 I've got hammered on the tenth. Military to military, they 441 00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:33.559 know they got beaten on the tenth, Right, don't look 442 00:25:33.559 --> 00:25:35.880 at the spin and the you know how many jets 443 00:25:35.880 --> 00:25:38.599 and all that. That was a spin that they put 444 00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:42.720 out to save face. Man to man. Military to military, 445 00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:46.359 they know they took heavy losses. Their bases

were shattered, 446 00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:49.759 their radars were hold. They've just managed to fix many 447 00:25:49.799 --> 00:25:52.799 of those bases. One year later, they've lost jets, like 448 00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:58.160 something like five jets one area, one of the EVACS platforms. 449 00:25:58.440 --> 00:26:03.240 They've lost a couple of jets their on the ground. Now, 450 00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:05.400 when you put all of this together, they've realized that, look, 451 00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:09.160 they're extremely vulnerable. They know this dynamic response strategy is 452 00:26:09.160 --> 00:26:11.400 going to come to them sooner or later. They need 453 00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:17.720 to expand their circle of influence. Maybe the White House 454 00:26:17.720 --> 00:26:20.680 may not be as favorable the next time, but they 455 00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:23.240 know for sure that Riyah is going to be there 456 00:26:23.240 --> 00:26:27.160 for a very long time. Right, MBS is there, Mama 457 00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:29.720 Bin Salman. They need someone they can call up and say, hey, listen, 458 00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:32.440 tell the Indians to call up, call off these strikes. 459 00:26:32.680 --> 00:26:35.440 So they've worked their strategy that if you look at it, 460 00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:39.440 their foreign policy is now literally foreign policy, military strategy 461 00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:43.200 has been run by money. So everything that he has 462 00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:48.319 done after Absendur has been to secure Pakistan. If there 463 00:26:48.359 --> 00:26:51.759 is a resumption of hostilities, if India attacks again, what 464 00:26:51.799 --> 00:26:55.960 do I do next? Because he's realized that we are 465 00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:59.559 not deterred by nuclear weapons anymore. That worked in the 466 00:26:59.559 --> 00:27:01.640 past and eighties and nineties. This is not to say 467 00:27:01.640 --> 00:27:07.079 that to advocate, you know, some kind of crazy military 468 00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:10.119 response and go and you know, attack Pakistan without any 469 00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:14.440 provocation on things. Our entire strategy for now, this dynamic 470 00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:19.319 response strategy is is based on the fact that it 471 00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:24.559 will respond. It's a responsive strategy. It's not a proactive strategy. 472 00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:27.880 It's not a preemptive strategy. It is only a strategy 473 00:27:27.880 --> 00:27:31.200 that will respond to any kind of incident like this 474 00:27:32.279 --> 00:27:37.440 and will then you know, inflict a lot of unacceptable 475 00:27:37.519 --> 00:27:42.559 damage on Pakistan. And the fact that this strategy now exists, 476 00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:46.599 the dynamic response strategy, and that Pakistan knows about it, 477 00:27:47.079 --> 00:27:50.200 that itself is deterrence. So now they will have to 478 00:27:50.319 --> 00:27:52.440 work around that thing. And you know, this is what 479 00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:55.279 they do all the time. They just and militaries, idle 480 00:27:55.319 --> 00:27:58.599 militaries which rule countries. They're just looking at you know, 481 00:27:58.680 --> 00:28:01.160 what's the next thing going to be, Let's carry out 482 00:28:01.160 --> 00:28:04.160 another exercise. Okay, Indians have come up with d RS. 483 00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:05.799 How do we counter it? You know, what are the 484 00:28:05.839 --> 00:28:09.279 assets that we deploy or do we you know, go 485 00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:13.119 back to tactical nuclear weapons or threatened to strike Indian 486 00:28:13.359 --> 00:28:16.200 you know, targets, in which case they will be bigger retalition. 487 00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:21.000 So it's actually it's a stability instability paradox which we're 488 00:28:21.079 --> 00:28:23.720 going to be looking at for a time. As long 489 00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:26.480 as as as long as Whield Marshall Mouni is there, 490 00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:31.799 you're assured of this, uh, this paradox instability stability paradox. Yeah. 491 00:28:31.839 --> 00:28:31.960 Good. 492 00:28:32.039 --> 00:28:34.200 Your point you brought up South the Araba because I 493 00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:37.160 was actually going to ask you that, you know, if 494 00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:40.920 we are able to see, uh, the fact or the 495 00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:44.440 advantage that Pakistan has geographical LEAs uh and that how 496 00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:47.839 that was sort of sort of that oppositions brought focus 497 00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:50.119 onto that. Yeah, I'm pretty sure even the Pakistani generals 498 00:28:50.119 --> 00:28:51.720 would be able to see that. And they are they 499 00:28:51.799 --> 00:28:53.920 for all they do, they will not be foolish. They 500 00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:55.799 will be thinking of, you know, responses. So the one 501 00:28:55.799 --> 00:28:57.960 that you talk about, how the is a good one, 502 00:28:58.079 --> 00:29:01.440 but then a quick follow up. The point with a 503 00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:04.400 diplomatic solution for a for a for a for a 504 00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:08.599 military problem is that in can always say no. So 505 00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:12.319 do you think we've Pakistan will is still sort of 506 00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:15.880 evolving how to figure out and how to compensate for 507 00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:18.319 this lack of depth problem that you said it has identified. 508 00:29:18.759 --> 00:29:21.160 I think they've more or less figured it out diplomatically 509 00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:24.559 at least why their you know, alliances. They believe that 510 00:29:24.640 --> 00:29:28.400 you know, China, the United States saw their Arabia enough 511 00:29:28.640 --> 00:29:31.200 and yeah, should handle their things, should be enough for 512 00:29:31.319 --> 00:29:35.400 their immediate needs. But they're also working on other things, 513

00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:37.759 maybe you know who knows, with Iran as well. So 514 00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:40.880 they want to a Turkey Let's not forget Turkey, which 515 00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:44.079 is the westernmost anchor of this thing. And you know 516 00:29:44.200 --> 00:29:47.759 that going back to General Zia's thing, which we discussed 517 00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:50.079 a couple of episodes back about how he had this 518 00:29:51.160 --> 00:29:57.920 vision of a you know, a crescent from Turkey to Pakistan, 519 00:29:58.079 --> 00:30:00.920 stretching through Saudi Arabia and and all of that. So 520 00:30:01.039 --> 00:30:04.000 I think that is, you know, when military is like this, 521 00:30:04.920 --> 00:30:07.920 the idle minds they've got everything, they've captured the country, 522 00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:10.960 and then they think grand strategy. Now they don't have 523 00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:14.079 this thing of you know, fighting elections. We are the 524 00:30:14.200 --> 00:30:18.440 things in perpetual election mode, right, you think strategy in 525 00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:22.079 between elections. These guys are doing strategy all the time, right, 526 00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:25.559 They've got nothing else to do. Right, So he they 527 00:30:25.599 --> 00:30:31.680 will be looking at, you know, creating a closer, denser 528 00:30:31.839 --> 00:30:38.480 network of allies Turkey, Saudi Arabia, China, Pakistan. This is 529 00:30:38.519 --> 00:30:40.480 the kind of access that they're looking and they will 530 00:30:40.519 --> 00:30:46.279 try and position India, Yue, Israel against him, you know, 531 00:30:46.359 --> 00:30:49.440 so it is us versus them. Look, so there is 532 00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:53.079 a lot of talk of a Ue Israel you know, proximity, 533 00:30:54.079 --> 00:30:57.079 which is a quasi alliance of sorts. So they will say, look, 534 00:30:57.119 --> 00:30:59.839 we are against these guys, and this is what we 535 00:31:00.039 --> 00:31:03.039 need to do. So this is something that that's not 536 00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:06.200 very unique. If you see, this is exactly what happened 537 00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:10.480 after nineteen seventy one when your two nation theory was repudiated, 538 00:31:10.519 --> 00:31:15.359 after the creation of Bangladesh, Zulfkaributu and then jal Zia. 539 00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:18.599 Then they started reaching out to the larger Islamic world 540 00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:22.400 and they said, this is one of the reasons why 541 00:31:22.599 --> 00:31:26.279 the bomb became so important. When you're the only Islamic 542 00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:29.319 country with a bomb. It gives you a certain kind 543 00:31:29.319 --> 00:31:31.880 of leverage that no other country has. And you look 544 00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:35.599 at it in this way. Turkey, the inheritors of the 545 00:31:35.640 --> 00:31:38.880 Ottoman Empire, right, they don't have nuclear weapons, and they 546 00:31:38.920 --> 00:31:40.759

are a NATO member state. You know, they have all 547 00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:44.559 these problems they want to get into the EU. Saudi Arabia, 548 00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:48.920 custodian of the Holy moss has a military not been 549 00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:52.440 tested in combat, has Us Basis on its soil, is 550 00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:57.480 faced with a resurgent Tehran but has no nuclear weapons, 551 00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:01.799 but has a lot of money. And then Pakistan nuclear weapons, 552 00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:06.640 no economy to speak of, has a fairly good military. 553 00:32:08.359 --> 00:32:10.440 So this is a marriage of convenience. You're looking at 554 00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:14.079 this new kind of access of uh you know, a 555 00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:17.359 convenience which a lot of these countries will bring stuff 556 00:32:17.359 --> 00:32:19.720 to the table, which Saudi Arabia has got the money 557 00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:23.519 and the vision. Turkey has a technology. Let's not forget this. 558 00:32:23.680 --> 00:32:27.680 They just unveil the ICBM six thousand kilometer ICBA and 559 00:32:27.799 --> 00:32:29.880 I was thinking that for a country that doesn't have 560 00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:32.480 nuclear weapons, what exactly you're going to deliver at over 561 00:32:32.519 --> 00:32:35.200 six thousand kilometers? I mean it's like it's a very 562 00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:39.319 expensive way to deliver a warhead at that distance. So 563 00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:44.759 quite possibly this is something Turkey indicating that, you know, 564 00:32:45.799 --> 00:32:47.640 if there's going to be a warhead, it's going to 565 00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:49.160 come from you know where. 566 00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:53.440 Yeah, actually, that's a good point you made that, you know, 567 00:32:54.279 --> 00:32:57.920 just hypothetically speaking, you know, what's to stop us MUNI 568 00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:00.799 from storing a couple of nuclear war heads in Turkey? 569 00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:02.680 Just enngaged something happens. 570 00:33:02.759 --> 00:33:05.440 Yeah, but there is a precedent to that. There's a 571 00:33:05.480 --> 00:33:08.680 lot of investigative reporting which way back in the eighties, 572 00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:12.559 again taking back to the time of Zia, where Saudi 573 00:33:12.559 --> 00:33:16.480 Arabia was threatened by the rise of Iran, and not 574 00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:19.920 just the rise of Iran, when the Iranian theocracy said 575 00:33:19.960 --> 00:33:23.480 we're going to export the is Shia revolution and Saudi 576 00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:28.440 Arabia has Shia populations guest where in all their oil 577 00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:31.880 rich provinces, right, so they have a problem that the 578 00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:35.799 Shias would rise up and revolt so and a nuclear 579 00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:37.640 armed Iran would be bad news for them. So they 580 00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:41.759 funded the Pakistani nuclear weapons program, where Zia took a 581 00:33:41.799 --> 00:33:45.240 lot of money from them. They funded the program, and 582 00:33:45.880 --> 00:33:48.119 this is a story which a lot of people have reported. 583 00:33:48.119 --> 00:33:51.039 It's never been confirmed. They have been reports which suggests 584 00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:54.559 that Saudi Arabia has a lot of Chinese ballistic missiles 585 00:33:54.759 --> 00:33:58.519 short range ballistic missiles three four hundred kilometers, about a 586 00:33:58.599 --> 00:34:01.599 dozen of them CSS two. I think dong Feng early 587 00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:09.000 dong Feng missiles with a terrible CEP right circular probable, 588 00:34:09.159 --> 00:34:13.000 which means that damn inaccurate missiles in anywhere we should 589 00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:16.199 you fire them and they'll land a kilometer away. But hey, 590 00:34:17.079 --> 00:34:18.960 those are the kind of missiles you need to launch 591 00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:24.800 nuclear weapons. So the analysis is that Saudi Arabia has 592 00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:28.880 stored these missiles which it brought from China. The warheads 593 00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:31.280 are not kept in Saudi Arabia because there's too much 594 00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:34.079 of American presence in South Arabia. The warheads are stored 595 00:34:34.119 --> 00:34:37.880 in Pakistan in a contingency. If the kingdom were threatened 596 00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:43.480 with nuclear weapons, say Israeli nuclear weapons, for instance, they 597 00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:48.000 would reach for the Pakistani bomb and which would be 598 00:34:48.039 --> 00:34:52.039 mated onto these Chinese ballistic missiles, and that would be 599 00:34:52.039 --> 00:34:56.960 a counter to the Iranian nuclear weapons program or the 600 00:34:57.159 --> 00:35:01.840 Israeli nuclear weapons program. So this is very very it's 601 00:35:01.880 --> 00:35:05.159 a minefield. And now the minefield is act. This was quiet, 602 00:35:05.239 --> 00:35:08.000 you know, during the age of globalization, the time that 603 00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:10.039 you had gone to college and I'd just started working. 604 00:35:10.280 --> 00:35:12.480 All this was under the surface, right, it was all there. 605 00:35:12.800 --> 00:35:15.719 The missiles were there, the bombs were there, the intentions 606 00:35:15.800 --> 00:35:20.199 weren't there. Now when you see people coming with hey greenland, 607 00:35:20.280 --> 00:35:22.800 I want greenland, Hey this thing, I want to grab this, 608 00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:25.199 I want to grab that, I want to teritory. See 609 00:35:25.480 --> 00:35:30.000 that whole global geopolitics has changed in the last five 610 00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:34.199 or six years. It is that end of history. Moment 611 00:35:34.360 --> 00:35:36.880 is over the world is the world is becoming around 612 00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:41.800 once again. And when that happens, then you have what 613 00:35:42.000 -->

00:35:44.760 is the currency that you have. You either have currency 614 00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:48.639 or you have influence, or you have bombs or you 615 00:35:48.719 --> 00:35:51.280 have missiles. What is it that you bring to the table. 616 00:35:51.719 --> 00:35:54.760 So it's at times like this when you know, geopolitics 617 00:35:54.880 --> 00:36:00.800 goes into very very you know, dangerous spaces, which I 618 00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:03.159 call minefield. So that's the kind of time that we're. 619 00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:07.159 In, right, yeah, I mean especially another example of that 620 00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:11.920 is how France has sort of emerged as another pole 621 00:36:12.039 --> 00:36:14.679 in the world because of what US has been doing 622 00:36:14.719 --> 00:36:16.559 in the Middle East, which has led many to question 623 00:36:16.880 --> 00:36:19.800 US's protective arms, so to speak. 624 00:36:19.880 --> 00:36:21.800 That I mean, and the French must be sitting there, 625 00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:25.280 you know, eating their baggettes and sipping their coffees and 626 00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:27.840 you know, smoking their pipes and thinking we are the 627 00:36:28.039 --> 00:36:31.159 cleverest people on the planet. You know, we've built our 628 00:36:31.239 --> 00:36:35.840 own nuclear weapons. Yeah, we ensured that eighty percent of 629 00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:39.880 our energy comes from nuclear power plants. And you know, 630 00:36:40.199 --> 00:36:42.960 at a time in the Germans, Germans literally shot themselves 631 00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:45.400 in the foot. They shut down all their nuclear power plants. 632 00:36:46.360 --> 00:36:48.960 They were living off cheap Prussian gas. They thought that 633 00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:53.280 would continue forever, and now they're in a fix, right. 634 00:36:53.599 --> 00:36:56.400 So the French, you have to respect them for a 635 00:36:56.480 --> 00:36:59.079 lot of decisions that they took, which you know, so 636 00:36:59.199 --> 00:37:02.400 it's like every one's autonomous. Now you have to cater 637 00:37:02.559 --> 00:37:04.639 for your own supply chains, you have to do your 638 00:37:04.679 --> 00:37:08.280 own securities architecture, you have to you know, build your 639 00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:12.480 own bombs. You know, that's the lesson, It seems right. 640 00:37:12.760 --> 00:37:15.760 We'll talk more about osind but after a quick break. 641 00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:30.639 In a world of contested potterers and silent battles, one 642 00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:35.360 voice cut through the noise. Was Israel able to achieve 643 00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:38.679 its aim? When Israel bombed Iran. 644 00:37:39.639 --> 00:37:42.880 Do you think the Chinese army is at war with itself? 645 00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:49.280 Joined veteran war correspondent God of savanth one of India's 646 00:37:49.400 --> 00:37:52.960 most trusted voices in defense journalism. 647 00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:55.199 Navaskar and jahand I'm God of Savath. 648 00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:00.280 Listen to Chuck review with God of Sava on India 649 00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:05.599 Today Podcasts, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube music and your favorite 650 00:38:05.679 --> 00:38:07.000 audio utity platform. 651 00:38:08.440 --> 00:38:12.239 Stay alert. The war for truck starts here. 652 00:38:18.719 --> 00:38:21.239 Welcome back. Something before the break. But there was a 653 00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:22.960 moment where you refer to PM. 654 00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:27.480 Speech a couple of days after the ceasefire between between 655 00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:30.360 India and Pakistan on May tenth. He was if I'm 656 00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:34.119 not wrong, I thinks speaking in Bihar twelfth, it was 657 00:38:34.519 --> 00:38:34.840 made wealth. 658 00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:35.679 Yeah yeah uh. 659 00:38:35.960 --> 00:38:39.480 And he he put out a message one of the 660 00:38:39.719 --> 00:38:43.559 one of the themes of which was that henceforth, India 661 00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:48.719 will not differentiate between state and non state actors, basically 662 00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:53.360 saying any terrorist attack that emanates from Pakistan may see 663 00:38:53.519 --> 00:38:56.719 India directly strike at the Pakistani military from the get go. 664 00:38:57.239 --> 00:38:59.880 Instead of what you saw during operations hin Duru, which 665 00:38:59.880 --> 00:39:02.599 were initially it was a counter terrorism operation of sorts, 666 00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:07.239 right you you attacked nine terrorists SI sites in Pakistan, 667 00:39:07.800 --> 00:39:10.920 and the statement admitted very clear that no military uh 668 00:39:11.800 --> 00:39:15.320 sites were hit and that you do not expect any Uh. 669 00:39:15.800 --> 00:39:18.119 You didn't want to escalate this any further. You were 670 00:39:18.239 --> 00:39:21.360 done with your operation and then you let things be. However, 671 00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:26.599 what happened was Pakistani Pakistan responded militarily. Initially there was 672 00:39:26.679 --> 00:39:28.880 some use of its air defense or other equipment that 673 00:39:28.960 --> 00:39:30.679 you know, led to some losses on the Indian side. 674 00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:31.119 Uh. 675 00:39:31.199 --> 00:39:34.280 Then you had the use of drones. Uh, and then 676 00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:36.880 finally that missile. I'm gonna come back to the missile 677 00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:37.679 bit in just some time. 678 00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:38.760 Uh. 679 00:39:39.400 --> 00:39:41.960 So what I the way I see it, it was 680 00:39:42.119 --> 00:39:44.760 the opening night of Sindur on May seventh, was the 681 00:39:44.840 --> 00:39:48.199 standard Indian response where you attacked the aggressor in terms 682 00:39:48.239 --> 00:39:52.519 of the terrorist Uh. Yeah, yeah, that that targeted, that targeted, 683 00:39:52.760 --> 00:39:58.639 that targeted you. But what happened was

that you then 684 00:39:58.760 --> 00:40:01.119 reached a point where we Modi said what he said 685 00:40:01.119 --> 00:40:04.039 that henceforth we will not differentiate between state and nonst attactors. 686 00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:07.800 Do you think this was always the core aim of 687 00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:11.079 this this operation, where India wanted to reach a point 688 00:40:11.119 --> 00:40:13.320 where it was able to say this that going forward 689 00:40:13.400 --> 00:40:15.000 we're not going to be you know, we're not going 690 00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:18.519 to differentiate between state and actors or was it something 691 00:40:18.559 --> 00:40:21.239 that evolved during the course of these of the of 692 00:40:21.320 --> 00:40:23.159 this four day operation. The reason I say that is 693 00:40:23.239 --> 00:40:26.840 because uh, the CDs General Johan had referred to some 694 00:40:27.079 --> 00:40:29.440 tactical errors he said that led to some losses on 695 00:40:29.480 --> 00:40:34.039 the Indian side. Was it was it also an understanding 696 00:40:34.159 --> 00:40:38.039 that if we keep doing this, if we keep differentiating 697 00:40:38.119 --> 00:40:41.239 between state and nons detractors, if our first response will 698 00:40:41.360 --> 00:40:45.400 always be that you target the trust in North Pakistani military, 699 00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:48.719 then you will always run the risk of you know, 700 00:40:49.000 --> 00:40:52.679 suffering losses whenever you have to unfortunately launch operations like 701 00:40:52.760 --> 00:40:53.079 these in the. 702 00:40:53.119 --> 00:40:56.480 Future, right, you know, no, absolutely, a good question, Dave. 703 00:40:56.519 --> 00:40:59.239 And you know the thing is that it's in hindsight. 704 00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:04.039 It's like, you know, it's clear vision, perfect vision. Right, 705 00:41:04.159 --> 00:41:06.960 hindsight is twenty twenty as they say. But if you 706 00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:09.440 look at the way they were looking at it, we 707 00:41:09.559 --> 00:41:12.079 were very cautious. If you look at the way we conducted, 708 00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:16.159 like you said, the first night, it was just pure. 709 00:41:16.400 --> 00:41:20.480 Those nine targets were just terror infrastructure, seven hit by 710 00:41:20.519 --> 00:41:24.239 the army and two by the Air Force. Then what happened. 711 00:41:24.480 --> 00:41:28.159 They possibly the tactical mistake that they made was that 712 00:41:28.280 --> 00:41:30.679 they did not go after the radars on the ground 713 00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:33.000 and the ground based their defenses, which is what the 714 00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:39.239 serious Johann referred to. Now, what they had not factored 715 00:41:39.320 --> 00:41:42.920 in was that in twenty nineteen there was General Bajuar 716 00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:47.119 and if you see in twenty twenty five you had 717 00:41:47.400 --> 00:41:53.599 Assimonis in charge. You saw their personalities coming out in 718 00:41:53.639 --> 00:41:56.280 the way they responded. If you see Bajwa, he's one 719 00:41:56.280 --> 00:41:58.719 of the nicer chaps in the parksan not not to 720 00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:02.760 say that or anything like that, but he was one 721 00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:04.840 of the He kind of understood, okay that you know, 722 00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:08.440 they need to do this score point whatever, let it be. 723 00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:13.079 So there was a limited PF thing where they came 724 00:42:13.239 --> 00:42:15.960 the swift retort or whatever, and we chose not to 725 00:42:16.039 --> 00:42:19.639 respond to that. We de escalated soon after. But here 726 00:42:20.599 --> 00:42:23.920 they had made up their mind that whatever India does, 727 00:42:24.679 --> 00:42:26.679 whether it were and everyone knew that it was going 728 00:42:26.719 --> 00:42:29.440 to be terrorist infrastructure that they would strike. So in 729 00:42:29.559 --> 00:42:32.440 that sense, we were very we were hobbled in our 730 00:42:32.519 --> 00:42:36.840 predictability that the Pakistan military knew money knew that we 731 00:42:36.920 --> 00:42:39.800 would only come after the terrorist infrastructure and not hit 732 00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:44.199 the Pakistan military right now. The mistake that he made 733 00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:48.599 was he thought that policy would hold for the next 734 00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:51.119 twenty four to forty eight hours. But he didn't know 735 00:42:51.199 --> 00:42:54.599 there was an escalation ladder that they said, okay, fine, 736 00:42:54.639 --> 00:42:57.760 we've hit the terror infrastructure. They've brought down a couple 737 00:42:57.800 --> 00:43:01.039 of planes. We don't know how many. Now we go 738 00:43:01.119 --> 00:43:01.880 to the next level. 739 00:43:02.079 --> 00:43:02.239 You know. 740 00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:06.239 So that was something that completely took them by surprise. 741 00:43:06.519 --> 00:43:09.280 And this is something that we've discussed. When you hit 742 00:43:09.800 --> 00:43:14.119 that entire swath of Pakistan from you know, Pok right 743 00:43:14.199 --> 00:43:17.639 down to Synth, you show that you have the ability 744 00:43:17.719 --> 00:43:21.159 to hit eight nine bases simultaneously or was it about 745 00:43:21.320 --> 00:43:25.920 eleven eleven or targets, many of them bases, you know, 746 00:43:26.199 --> 00:43:30.039 simultaneously within less than thirteen minutes, all of these were hit. 747 00:43:30.519 --> 00:43:32.800 So that completely rattled them. This is something that they 748 00:43:32.840 --> 00:43:35.679 hadn't anticipated. They thought these strikes would continue the way 749 00:43:35.800 --> 00:43:39.519 we had been doing it. So the entire response of 750 00:43:39.599 --> 00:43:42.119 THEIRS was driven by that. And you know, so UNI 751 00:43:42.280 --> 00:43:46.039 actually responded by that, stockpiled weapons, the pl seventeen, the 752

00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:49.800 new ones. They were determined on bringing down Indian Air 753 00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:54.000 Force aircraft, targeting iaf aircraft and stuff like that, thinking 754 00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:58.440 that we would terminate conflict at that point, but we 755 00:43:58.639 --> 00:44:02.039 escalated beyond that. So this is something that took them 756 00:44:02.119 --> 00:44:06.079 by surprise. They did not anticipate that thing, and which 757 00:44:06.159 --> 00:44:10.239 is why when you when you run out of answers 758 00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:13.719 to your questions, then you pick up the telephone, right, 759 00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:15.679 And that's the telephone that they picked up, and they 760 00:44:16.079 --> 00:44:19.599 dialed the White House in the tenth and you know, Trump, 761 00:44:19.880 --> 00:44:23.719 whatever happened, you know, it can be debated before after 762 00:44:23.800 --> 00:44:25.639 who called, whom went on. The fact is on the 763 00:44:25.760 --> 00:44:28.480 tenth they did dial and ask for a ceasefire, say 764 00:44:28.519 --> 00:44:31.119 that enough is enough. And I think because we had 765 00:44:31.159 --> 00:44:35.840 figured that our objectives were not to recapture pok or 766 00:44:35.960 --> 00:44:39.599 to bisec Pakistan into two or something, that the aims 767 00:44:39.639 --> 00:44:41.400 were very clear. I think they went in with a 768 00:44:41.480 --> 00:44:45.079 very clear aim that it was to destroy infrastructure, and 769 00:44:45.239 --> 00:44:49.440 because they responded, we had to respond by striking their infrastructure. 770 00:44:49.440 --> 00:44:52.400 That kind of very Yeah, it looks very old school 771 00:44:52.440 --> 00:44:54.519 in a sense, you know that it's not like, you know, 772 00:44:54.599 --> 00:44:58.320 destroy everything, and you know, do that kill kill the 773 00:44:58.440 --> 00:45:01.400 kind of stuff that the US does, for instance, in Iran, 774 00:45:02.079 --> 00:45:03.840 We don't fight wars that way. I mean, we can 775 00:45:04.159 --> 00:45:09.119 debate this, but this is exactly how we fight wars. 776 00:45:09.320 --> 00:45:11.039 Yeah, right, right. 777 00:45:11.480 --> 00:45:15.239 So I wanted to talk about that missile on May ninth, 778 00:45:15.400 --> 00:45:19.159 May tenth that Pakistan is Pakistan had launched towards India. 779 00:45:19.719 --> 00:45:21.840 The reason I say that I wanted to talk about 780 00:45:21.880 --> 00:45:25.559 it is because I think that was the trigger for 781 00:45:25.920 --> 00:45:28.559 the Air force then to you know, target Pakistani on 782 00:45:28.639 --> 00:45:31.559 air bases and military sites across the length and breadth 783 00:45:31.559 --> 00:45:34.159 of the country. The missile and talking about talking about 784 00:45:34.440 --> 00:45:37.239 is what has been reported in the media as the 785 00:45:37.280 --> 00:45:44.760 Fatah ballistic missile. India has not ever officially said or 786 00:45:44.800 -->

00:45:47.719 accused Pakistan launching a ballistic missile. It has said it 787 00:45:47.880 --> 00:45:50.039 was a fast moving missile because there are you know, 788 00:45:50.280 --> 00:45:52.880 some deep, slow moving missiles as well. Yes, coast in 789 00:45:52.960 --> 00:45:58.079 front of fair eyes apparently, but joke's apart. India called 790 00:45:58.119 --> 00:46:01.360 it a fast moving missile. What we knew from media 791 00:46:01.400 --> 00:46:04.320 reporting it was a ballistic missile. It was flying in 792 00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:07.639 the direction of Delhi, uh, and it was taken down 793 00:46:07.800 --> 00:46:09.880 by an air defense system I think it was a 794 00:46:10.280 --> 00:46:14.159 eight but effect system somewhere in yeah, somewhere in yeah, 795 00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:17.840 uh So a couple of tangents. Yeah, one is on 796 00:46:18.039 --> 00:46:21.320 the first, let's talk about what must have happened at 797 00:46:21.400 --> 00:46:23.320 the control room the i c c S which we 798 00:46:23.400 --> 00:46:26.519 talked about in the previous episode, the integrated Air Command 799 00:46:26.599 --> 00:46:30.719 and Control System system. What must have happened in that 800 00:46:31.599 --> 00:46:35.000 in that room when that missile launch must first have 801 00:46:35.079 --> 00:46:37.400 been detected. How do you think or maybe you know 802 00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:41.679 if you spoken to people over there, how pressure rised? 803 00:46:41.760 --> 00:46:43.840 How what was the pressure like for the for the 804 00:46:43.880 --> 00:46:46.440 officers there? And uh and this will sort of, you know, 805 00:46:46.639 --> 00:46:49.880 give give our listeners and viewers and a glimpse of 806 00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:52.559 how it is how an air defense system operates, like 807 00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:56.960 how would the the order to take this missile. 808 00:46:56.760 --> 00:46:58.760 Down have been taken? So one tell us about that. 809 00:46:59.480 --> 00:46:59.599 Uh. 810 00:47:00.360 --> 00:47:03.280 Second, explain to me this is something I have never 811 00:47:03.360 --> 00:47:06.320 been able to figure out. Why has India never officially 812 00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:08.840 formally accused Pakistan of doing this? 813 00:47:09.239 --> 00:47:11.440 Right? A good question, Dave. And you know, the thing 814 00:47:11.519 --> 00:47:16.280 is that we've never formally acknowledged this because it would 815 00:47:16.400 --> 00:47:21.079 imply that it would formalize the fact what we all 816 00:47:21.239 --> 00:47:25.000 know unofficially that this is the possibly the first time 817 00:47:25.079 --> 00:47:28.360 in the world where one nuclear weapon country has fired 818 00:47:28.719 --> 00:47:32.800 a ballistic missile at another nuclear armed country. And as 819 00:47:32.880 --> 00:47:35.760 we've discussed in the previous episode, I mean, nuclear armed 820 00:47:35.760 --> 00:47:41.199 countries don't launch missiles at each other because

precisely because 821 00:47:41.239 --> 00:47:45.280 the chances of miscalculation are so enormous, very high. I mean, 822 00:47:45.400 --> 00:47:48.039 just imagine if our forces had been in hair trigger alert, 823 00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:50.960 nuclear weapons were at hair trigger alert, and you saw 824 00:47:51.079 --> 00:47:54.199 missile launch happen, and you would think, you know, in 825 00:47:54.280 --> 00:47:57.159 that pressure cooker situation, they would say, my god, they've 826 00:47:57.199 --> 00:48:00.280 gone for it. They're launching weapons at US nuclear And 827 00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:02.800 there was this that elephant was there in the room. 828 00:48:03.239 --> 00:48:05.719 I remember we I mean I wasn't there on the 829 00:48:06.079 --> 00:48:08.400 on the field, but we were there in the the 830 00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:11.400 India Today studios, and this was one big thing that 831 00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:13.559 was always on our mind that at what point will 832 00:48:13.960 --> 00:48:18.000 Pakistan start rattling the nuclear saber. I think with this 833 00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:21.199 they rattled it to say that, look, don't try this, 834 00:48:21.559 --> 00:48:24.639 We've got this. We've sent one. There could be more 835 00:48:25.440 --> 00:48:29.599 and what might have happened on that night when that 836 00:48:30.320 --> 00:48:33.960 ballistic missile was launched towards Delhi. If you look at it, 837 00:48:34.039 --> 00:48:36.880 it was launched a straight trajictory towards Delhi and sercize 838 00:48:36.920 --> 00:48:39.639 in the way the I c c S would have 839 00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:43.840 picked it up almost immediately when it was launched, and 840 00:48:44.000 --> 00:48:47.039 within seconds they would have that's how the system is. 841 00:48:47.079 --> 00:48:51.360 It's entirely automated, and they would have immediately figured out 842 00:48:51.400 --> 00:48:54.559 the trajectory of the weapon, which we have a ballistic 843 00:48:54.599 --> 00:48:59.480 missile defense capability as well. Both are linked and the 844 00:48:59.559 --> 00:49:04.119 minute the launch was seen, that tragictory would have been 845 00:49:04.119 --> 00:49:07.679 analyzed where it was headed and they would have immediately 846 00:49:07.800 --> 00:49:10.360 said that this Serici is the closest base to it. 847 00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:13.679 It has barricades, so intercept they would have given the 848 00:49:13.719 --> 00:49:17.360 command there Sirizza would have been activated and they launched themselves. 849 00:49:17.360 --> 00:49:20.280 I think they launched one exactly one. They knocked it 850 00:49:20.360 --> 00:49:23.400 down and they brought it out. A very eerie kind 851 00:49:23.440 --> 00:49:25.800 of video if you saw some It was picked up 852 00:49:25.840 --> 00:49:29.239 by a villager and shot it on his phone. There's 853 00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:31.239 a cry of peacocks if you remember that. There's a 854 00:49:32.360 --> 00:49:35.000

pretty creepy video where you can see that big flash 855 00:49:35.039 --> 00:49:37.280 in the thing. So this was our thing. This is 856 00:49:37.320 --> 00:49:42.079 something that you see very routinely in Israel, and not 857 00:49:42.239 --> 00:49:45.280 in Iran because Iran doesn't intercept them misselves, but in Israel. 858 00:49:45.320 --> 00:49:48.840 They do it quite routinely. But that was the kind 859 00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:53.400 of messaging that Pakistan was trying to do there. And 860 00:49:54.119 --> 00:49:57.519 I believe this is what we knocked back. They knocked 861 00:49:57.559 --> 00:50:01.000 and we knocked back. They sent one missile, we sent 862 00:50:01.079 --> 00:50:07.119 two knocks at the missile storage site at Kirana Hills. 863 00:50:07.400 --> 00:50:09.800 That Admiral ak Party still says that we had nothing 864 00:50:09.800 --> 00:50:11.320 to do with it nuclear weapons. 865 00:50:12.400 --> 00:50:14.079 He does not know. So these are many of those 866 00:50:14.119 --> 00:50:17.199 things that will we probably wait for come. 867 00:50:17.039 --> 00:50:19.039 On on the APR. Like you know that a nuclears, 868 00:50:19.079 --> 00:50:22.400 but the Air Force doesn't, don't like doesn't so they 869 00:50:22.440 --> 00:50:22.920 don't know that. 870 00:50:23.400 --> 00:50:25.639 So the person who knows all of this and will 871 00:50:25.679 --> 00:50:28.000 never tell that story is proba to wait for him 872 00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:29.199 to tell his side of the story. 873 00:50:29.719 --> 00:50:33.039 Yeah right, but you know, still on the top pick 874 00:50:33.079 --> 00:50:38.039 of that fast moving missile, Wasn't that the stupidest thing 875 00:50:38.079 --> 00:50:40.719 to do, because you know, forget that there was no 876 00:50:40.880 --> 00:50:44.280 nuclear war, had on the fact you fired a missile 877 00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:48.119 at the capital of towards the capital of the country 878 00:50:49.000 --> 00:50:51.079 with with whom you were in a military conflict with 879 00:50:51.199 --> 00:50:55.039 right now, if that missile had landed anywhere close to Delhi, 880 00:50:55.280 --> 00:50:57.159 had caused any sort of damage. 881 00:50:57.639 --> 00:50:59.840 Wouldn't this have escripted till. 882 00:51:00.360 --> 00:51:02.199 Of course, I think that was the aim that they 883 00:51:02.239 --> 00:51:05.760 wanted to launch a missile drop it some vicinity of Delhi, 884 00:51:05.880 --> 00:51:09.760 create panic, you know, civilian pressure, you know, all of 885 00:51:09.840 --> 00:51:12.760 those kinds of things. Maybe that was the intention, Who knows, 886 00:51:13.199 --> 00:51:15.000 but the fact is that I think what happened is 887 00:51:15.039 --> 00:51:18.199 that Pakistan realized that it didn't have a conventional rocket 888 00:51:18.280 --> 00:51:21.239 force to strike. It had a few of these fatas, 889 00:51:23.159 --> 00:51:28.719 and because all the missiles ballistic missiles are nuclear tipped, 890 00:51:29.320 --> 00:51:33.280 they don't have a conventional missile force, Whereas in our 891 00:51:33.400 --> 00:51:35.280 case as well, it's the same. We have a couple 892 00:51:35.320 --> 00:51:38.920 of tactical ballistic missiles, but primarily our ballistic missiles are 893 00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:44.440 for nuclear weapons. Use our Bromos. And this is again 894 00:51:44.599 --> 00:51:47.199 what Dr Pilay told me, is that one of the 895 00:51:47.239 --> 00:51:49.559 greatest things that he ever did was to ensure that 896 00:51:49.679 --> 00:51:53.880 Bramos was never used as a nuclear weapons carrier, because 897 00:51:53.880 --> 00:51:56.280 if that had happened, you would not have been able 898 00:51:56.320 --> 00:51:58.519 to use the Bramos at all for any of the services. 899 00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:01.119 So the services then got another weapon which is a 900 00:52:01.159 --> 00:52:04.920 little better than that, which is called the not the 901 00:52:05.360 --> 00:52:10.280 the Sharia, the Sharia is a hypersonic ballistic missile which 902 00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:15.679 is exclusively for nuclear weapons use. So now what has 903 00:52:15.719 --> 00:52:18.480 happened is Pakistan has gone in the other direction and said, 904 00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:21.280 oh we got hit. We couldn't strike back. They hit 905 00:52:21.360 --> 00:52:23.239 us with Bramos. Now we will have to do something, 906 00:52:23.320 --> 00:52:25.880 create our own rocket force. So now if you've seen 907 00:52:26.039 --> 00:52:29.639 in the last couple of days they've tested, so they 908 00:52:29.719 --> 00:52:33.599 will now you know, induct more numbers of those to 909 00:52:34.119 --> 00:52:35.880 you know, try and build it up. So if there 910 00:52:35.960 --> 00:52:39.360 is another you know, escalation or if there's a short 911 00:52:39.480 --> 00:52:42.920 conflict like this, they will use these missiles in larger 912 00:52:43.000 --> 00:52:45.639 numbers and maybe not the kind of drones that they 913 00:52:45.719 --> 00:52:48.239 did so in the opening hours, if we if we 914 00:52:48.320 --> 00:52:50.960 struck their infrastructure for instance, they will want it to 915 00:52:51.000 --> 00:52:53.360 strike at our air fields and stuff. So they realized 916 00:52:53.400 --> 00:52:56.360 that that there was a big hole in their capabilities, 917 00:52:56.599 --> 00:53:00.599 and they didn't anticipate. When you don't anticipate, you don't 918 00:53:01.360 --> 00:53:03.360 you know, acquire the kind of system that you might 919 00:53:03.440 --> 00:53:05.920 want to, you know, and which is what they've been doing. 920 00:53:05.960 --> 00:53:09.599 I mean, it's as foolish as it sounds that it 921 00:53:09.719 --> 00:53:12.280 has not led to a big change in their behavior. 922 00:53:12.880 --> 00:53:15.400 They believe that they need to keep fighting, of course, 923 00:53:15.880 --> 00:53:18.480 and they lost that round because they didn't have these 924 00:53:19.000 -->

00:53:21.559 you know, tools, and they need to get better weapons 925 00:53:21.679 --> 00:53:23.880 and better hardware and you know all that. So it's 926 00:53:23.960 --> 00:53:28.039 this unending you know, death spiral literally that you keep 927 00:53:28.320 --> 00:53:30.280 going on and on and on trying to get better 928 00:53:30.360 --> 00:53:33.360 and better weapons rather than do the simple thing, which 929 00:53:33.440 --> 00:53:37.119 is just shut down the terror infrastructure. Yeah, just leave, 930 00:53:37.320 --> 00:53:40.239 live in peace. You do your thing, We'll do our thing. 931 00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:42.559 But a lot of money. 932 00:53:44.800 --> 00:53:47.920 Yeah, And they use it as see. I mean they 933 00:53:48.039 --> 00:53:50.920 use it as an instrument of state policy, not just 934 00:53:51.079 --> 00:53:53.559 with India, but they used it with Afghanistans, They're using 935 00:53:53.599 --> 00:53:57.360 it with Alan as well with they have borders with 936 00:53:57.639 --> 00:54:00.679 four countries, they're using it with in three of them, 937 00:54:01.320 --> 00:54:04.079 and who knows with China evil right if the price 938 00:54:04.199 --> 00:54:06.480 is right, right, uh. 939 00:54:06.599 --> 00:54:10.000 SPA point about something that's become a very topic of 940 00:54:10.039 --> 00:54:13.360 discussion because they run war, but something we saw glimpses 941 00:54:13.400 --> 00:54:17.400 of during Operation Sindur as well, the concept of having 942 00:54:17.480 --> 00:54:21.519 to worry about what you call a magazine depth. So 943 00:54:21.679 --> 00:54:27.480 even during Odur you had Pakistan launching loitering munitions drones, 944 00:54:27.480 --> 00:54:30.880 which are comparatively cheaper then let's say a missile or 945 00:54:30.960 --> 00:54:31.440 sending an. 946 00:54:31.360 --> 00:54:33.519 Aircraft we're loaded with bombs. 947 00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:37.159 Uh Iran war has made us see what happens when 948 00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:39.679 what what you can do in terms of, you know, 949 00:54:39.760 --> 00:54:42.199 employing cheap drones that have to be taken down by 950 00:54:42.239 --> 00:54:48.039 expensive interceptors. Uh was India or did the planners military 951 00:54:48.079 --> 00:54:52.199 plans at any point were we worried about magazine debt 952 00:54:52.360 --> 00:54:54.320 during options in do Or is this something that we 953 00:54:54.440 --> 00:54:57.119 are now going to start thinking about because we see 954 00:54:57.119 --> 00:54:57.760 what's happening in there? 955 00:54:58.199 --> 00:54:58.760 A good question. 956 00:54:59.119 --> 00:54:59.199 Now. 957 00:54:59.320 --> 00:55:01.719 The thing is that you know a lot of these 958 00:55:02.679 --> 00:55:05.920 war fighting paradigms, you think that they don't apply to you, 959 00:55:06.480 --> 00:55:09.159 or this is happening far away, it's you know, it's 960 00:55:09.199 --> 00:55:10.800 not never going to happen to us, and then lo 961 00:55:10.920 --> 00:55:13.360 and behold it it hits you and then you realize, oh, 962 00:55:13.480 --> 00:55:18.400 you know, we're running short of ammunition, ammunition, intercept us drones. 963 00:55:18.639 --> 00:55:21.119 You know you probably need to restock missiles. 964 00:55:21.280 --> 00:55:22.639 So it takes money, a lot of money. 965 00:55:22.760 --> 00:55:25.679 Yeah. So if you see now a lot of statements 966 00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:27.519 in the last one year that have been coming out 967 00:55:28.920 --> 00:55:31.960 all my friends in the forces, the DRDO, for instance, 968 00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:36.599 they're all looking at building drones in the tens of thousands. 969 00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:41.280 Now I still say that we don't have a Shah 970 00:55:41.480 --> 00:55:45.119 one three six kind of assembly line producing you know, 971 00:55:45.719 --> 00:55:49.199 tens of thousands of these drones. That's a big, you 972 00:55:49.280 --> 00:55:52.639 know hole in our capabilities. I see magazine depthing. You're 973 00:55:52.679 --> 00:55:55.920 not creating assembly lines, You're giving penny package to a 974 00:55:55.960 --> 00:55:58.679 lot of people. Right. This is like again going back 975 00:55:58.719 --> 00:56:02.800 to the artillery thing, is that when you know artillery 976 00:56:02.960 --> 00:56:06.079 was invented, the present modern d artillery came into being 977 00:56:06.119 --> 00:56:08.719 in the late nineteenth century. It's like saying that, you know, 978 00:56:09.239 --> 00:56:16.239 France acquired after the you know, German France War, France 979 00:56:16.239 --> 00:56:20.159 acquired fifty artillery shells or one hundred artillery shells, So 980 00:56:20.280 --> 00:56:23.679 you know, artillery shells stopwhile in the tens hundreds of thousands, Ye, 981 00:56:24.079 --> 00:56:26.840 drones are the artillery rounds of the twenty first century. 982 00:56:26.880 --> 00:56:30.519 Whether you like it or no. Right, if you don't 983 00:56:30.639 --> 00:56:32.880 like it, the guy next door likes it, he loves it, 984 00:56:32.960 --> 00:56:35.320 and he's going to use it against you. So that 985 00:56:35.480 --> 00:56:37.960 is the one big lesson that we've seen. And the 986 00:56:38.039 --> 00:56:42.760 DRDO chief statement recently about creating a completely made in 987 00:56:42.840 --> 00:56:46.760 India BrahMos missile which did not depend on Russian components 988 00:56:46.800 --> 00:56:48.960 because they have their own supply chain issues out there, 989 00:56:49.039 --> 00:56:52.440 and they're fighting a war for four years plus. So 990 00:56:52.519 --> 00:56:57.719 they're looking at creating quick, easy to build, entirely indigenous 991 00:56:57.880 --> 00:57:01.880 missiles which we can build in very large numbers. And 992 00:57:02.519 --> 00:57:04.679 I'm sure these are the lessons that Pakistan has taken 993 00:57:04.760 --> 00:57:09.280 as well. They have been looking we've been looking closely 994

00:57:09.320 --> 00:57:12.719 at the Iran war, and Pakistan has been possibly looking 995 00:57:13.360 --> 00:57:17.000 at the Iran War with its face pressed to the window, 996 00:57:17.159 --> 00:57:20.559 you know. And we were talking in the newsroom at 997 00:57:20.599 --> 00:57:23.519 what's money doing in Iran for three days, you know, 998 00:57:24.639 --> 00:57:26.800 besides brokering piece. So I said, yeah, the first day, 999 00:57:26.800 --> 00:57:29.639 he must have been talking about peace. The next two 1000 00:57:29.719 --> 00:57:32.559 days this is that, please give me some missiles and drones. 1001 00:57:32.960 --> 00:57:37.280 I need it. So they're stockpiling missiles drones. I'm sure 1002 00:57:37.280 --> 00:57:41.559 they've got They've learned from Iranian war fighting strategies, which 1003 00:57:41.639 --> 00:57:44.199 is to you know, tunnel, go under the ground, because 1004 00:57:44.360 --> 00:57:48.360 they aren't going to be caught open again. They possibly 1005 00:57:48.440 --> 00:57:50.480 don't want to be hammered the way they were in 1006 00:57:50.599 --> 00:57:53.360 twenty twenty five. They will look at strategies to survive. 1007 00:57:53.480 --> 00:57:58.599 Go under the ground, get you know, ballistic missiles, get drones, 1008 00:57:58.679 --> 00:58:01.280 shy type of drones. There was a report I was reading, 1009 00:58:02.440 --> 00:58:04.159 I think it came out of the arms exhibition where 1010 00:58:04.199 --> 00:58:08.519 they said that the Turkish defense company Bakar, I think, 1011 00:58:09.159 --> 00:58:13.679 is selling ten thousand Kamikazi drones to an unnamed foreign country. Now, 1012 00:58:13.760 --> 00:58:17.679 which could that unnamed foreign country be? Yes, yes, yes, 1013 00:58:18.400 --> 00:58:22.159 So this is Pakistan learning all the long wrong lessons 1014 00:58:22.199 --> 00:58:25.360 from Obsindur, where it believes that, hey, you know, what 1015 00:58:25.519 --> 00:58:27.480 happened was that we didn't have the right weapons. You know, 1016 00:58:28.639 --> 00:58:30.760 we need to stalk byle more of those interceptors and 1017 00:58:31.159 --> 00:58:35.199 ballistic missiles and for the next round. So that's what 1018 00:58:35.400 --> 00:58:38.760 the thing is. But magazine depth again, lessons taken both 1019 00:58:38.880 --> 00:58:43.559 by India, lessons absorbed by Pakistan and in fact by 1020 00:58:43.559 --> 00:58:45.960 the whole world. Yeah, if you look at the three conflicts, 1021 00:58:46.039 --> 00:58:50.599 you know, it's Iran. Just after Obzindur. You had the 1022 00:58:50.679 --> 00:58:55.400 twelve day Iran Israel War, the twelve Way conflict. Then 1023 00:58:55.440 --> 00:58:58.800 you have this forty day Iran US War where the 1024 00:58:58.920 --> 00:59:03.239 US rapidly ran of interceptors, the Gulf States ran out 1025 00:59:03.280 --> 00:59:07.000 of interceptors, u A, Saudi Arabia and all that everybody 1026 00:59:07.159 --> 00:59:12.000 is going to start making stockpiling weapons and going in 1027 00:59:12.079 --> 00:59:15.039 for assembly lines, going to your car manufacturers and asking 1028 00:59:15.119 --> 00:59:19.000 them to you know, start mass producing missiles and drones 1029 00:59:19.039 --> 00:59:23.119 and interceptors. And it is sad. I'm not a very 1030 00:59:23.159 --> 00:59:25.239 big fan of, you know, the militarization of the world. 1031 00:59:25.280 --> 00:59:28.079 And I study conflict. I study the way the world is. 1032 00:59:28.599 --> 00:59:31.000 I don't advocate that this is the way the world 1033 00:59:31.079 --> 00:59:33.440 needs to be. Yeah, there is, like I keep saying, 1034 00:59:33.519 --> 00:59:36.760 it's there's a Ramayan paradigm and there's a mahbaa paradigm. 1035 00:59:37.199 --> 00:59:40.599 Ramayan is the is the ideal world. You know, it's 1036 00:59:40.639 --> 00:59:46.039 a good bad good son, you know, bad adversary, good evil, 1037 00:59:46.119 --> 00:59:48.719 black white in the Mahabara. It is the way the 1038 00:59:48.760 --> 00:59:52.239 world is, which is shades of gray. Everybody is in 1039 00:59:52.599 --> 00:59:55.000 shades of gray. And that's the way the world is today. 1040 00:59:55.639 --> 00:59:59.480 And when you know you have insecurities, I mean when 1041 00:59:59.480 --> 01:00:03.000 you have NATO members, the founding member of NATO turning 1042 01:00:03.039 --> 01:00:05.639 around and saying I want your territory. You know, I 1043 01:00:05.800 --> 01:00:09.199 want to acquire grab your territory because I can you know, 1044 01:00:09.440 --> 01:00:14.079 use it. What is to you know, what do countries 1045 01:00:14.119 --> 01:00:18.159 defend themselves? So that's why everyone's now reaching for nuclear weapons. 1046 01:00:18.199 --> 01:00:22.199 Were living through a very you know, troubled phase in 1047 01:00:22.519 --> 01:00:25.119 global thing till the time we reach a new level 1048 01:00:25.159 --> 01:00:28.840 of stability, we are in a very very you know, 1049 01:00:29.320 --> 01:00:32.280 rough patch. This is the kind of thing that happens 1050 01:00:32.360 --> 01:00:35.880 usually a cycle that comes after about eighty years, one 1051 01:00:35.960 --> 01:00:38.440 hundred years or so. We saw that after the First 1052 01:00:38.480 --> 01:00:41.079 World War, then we saw it after the end of 1053 01:00:41.119 --> 01:00:44.480 the Second World War, then after the Cold War, and 1054 01:00:44.559 --> 01:00:47.199 now this is the post post Cold War world. So 1055 01:00:47.519 --> 01:00:50.440 where you know, as I was just listening to the 1056 01:00:50.519 --> 01:00:53.400 Chief of Defense Staff where he was talking about theaterization, 1057 01:00:53.480 --> 01:00:56.400 he says that look now at a time when countries 1058 01:00:56.480 --> 01:01:01.320 are resorting to warfare for a achieving their political aims, 1059 01:01:01.840 --> 01:01:03.800 then you need these structures in place. 1060 01:01:05.039 --> 01:01:08.480 You speaking of

world wars and rearming. Saw this interesting 1061 01:01:08.559 --> 01:01:09.400 post on social media. 1062 01:01:09.400 --> 01:01:12.639 I'm not sure how accurate it is, but apparently Germany, 1063 01:01:13.119 --> 01:01:16.159 the country that's responsible for both the world wars, has 1064 01:01:16.239 --> 01:01:20.000 set a target to become Europe's strongest military by the 1065 01:01:20.159 --> 01:01:23.760 year when there will be the hundredth and year anniversary 1066 01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:27.039 of the World War to start. So very interesting year 1067 01:01:27.280 --> 01:01:28.039 is what they've chosen. 1068 01:01:28.079 --> 01:01:29.840 They could have just liked five. 1069 01:01:30.559 --> 01:01:36.079 You know those things they've German rearmament as great as 1070 01:01:36.119 --> 01:01:39.800 it sounds, I mean, European countries will have a very 1071 01:01:39.840 --> 01:01:44.519 different take on German. German rearmament we saw about we 1072 01:01:44.639 --> 01:01:47.880 saw three phases of two phases of German rearmament in 1073 01:01:47.960 --> 01:01:50.920 the late nineteenth century and the early twentieth and you 1074 01:01:51.000 --> 01:01:55.400 know where we landed up after that, right right late 1075 01:01:55.480 --> 01:01:58.079 on the one final quick point this is sort of 1076 01:01:58.159 --> 01:02:01.440 a very lighter, lighter point is I've always wondered, so 1077 01:02:01.559 --> 01:02:05.159 you know, the the ceasefire, or rather what India had 1078 01:02:05.280 --> 01:02:08.920 termed it back then, the pause and operations was achieved 1079 01:02:09.000 --> 01:02:12.239 between India and Pakistan after Pakistan called India, who was 1080 01:02:12.280 --> 01:02:14.039 that person that was the Pakistan and d GM or 1081 01:02:14.840 --> 01:02:20.480 military operations calling his counterpart the Indian Armies DGMO left 1082 01:02:20.519 --> 01:02:23.039 ten General Raji Kai If I'm not one of the 1083 01:02:23.119 --> 01:02:26.639 three officers who turned out the faces of because of 1084 01:02:26.639 --> 01:02:27.800 their daily press conferences. 1085 01:02:28.360 --> 01:02:30.639 Uh, he called him up and you know, asked for 1086 01:02:30.920 --> 01:02:35.280 or asked for a sea fire. I've always wondered in 1087 01:02:35.480 --> 01:02:39.480 live conflict situations like these, when you have h you know, 1088 01:02:39.559 --> 01:02:42.880 you're you're literally fighting each other and you have to 1089 01:02:42.960 --> 01:02:45.320 make calls like these and these are not diplomats, right, 1090 01:02:45.360 --> 01:02:48.559 these are military men. They they are in a different way. 1091 01:02:49.119 --> 01:02:52.840 Uh, how is the how are the talks like, is 1092 01:02:52.920 --> 01:02:53.840 it very. 1093 01:02:53.840 --> 01:02:56.960 Very professional or do things often at times end up 1094 01:02:56.960 --> 01:02:57.599 getting heated. 1095 01:02:58.000 --> 01:03:01.079 No, I think very professionalizing. There's no if you're talking 1096 01:03:01.079 --> 01:03:06.400 to the DJM O line, it's very kurt. It's my 1097 01:03:06.480 --> 01:03:08.719 friends will have handled those telephones. This is very curt. 1098 01:03:08.760 --> 01:03:12.719 It's very to the point, and there is no you know, acrimony. 1099 01:03:12.760 --> 01:03:15.920 Whatever the situation be, on both sides, it's usually curt 1100 01:03:16.039 --> 01:03:19.360 to the point, very military like. Uh, you know, that's 1101 01:03:19.360 --> 01:03:21.800 how it is. So for them, it's another day at work. 1102 01:03:22.559 --> 01:03:25.679 It's sad, but yeah, it is. It is that that's 1103 01:03:25.679 --> 01:03:28.480 what that's what they train for, condition you know, their 1104 01:03:28.639 --> 01:03:31.000 entire life, and that's why they enter, you know, at 1105 01:03:31.039 --> 01:03:33.280 a time in there so young. They get into the 1106 01:03:33.320 --> 01:03:35.760 things they shape for precisely an environment like this. 1107 01:03:35.880 --> 01:03:37.800 We're able to stay cool actually as you stay. 1108 01:03:37.679 --> 01:03:40.079 Cool under the you know, in the line of fire. 1109 01:03:40.199 --> 01:03:44.559 And that's that's what they do. And uh, that's the 1110 01:03:44.639 --> 01:03:46.400 way we are right. 1111 01:03:46.920 --> 01:03:49.800 One last points on deep is the country that we've 1112 01:03:49.880 --> 01:03:52.280 not talked about, but the country that we were talking 1113 01:03:52.320 --> 01:03:56.920 about the most before the attack and the resultant operations 1114 01:03:56.960 --> 01:03:57.960 into China. 1115 01:03:58.320 --> 01:04:00.880 Do you think any of what India did. 1116 01:04:00.840 --> 01:04:03.440 Over the course of those four days is a messaging 1117 01:04:03.719 --> 01:04:06.519 or is something that even China has taken a look at, 1118 01:04:06.599 --> 01:04:09.599 taken a note off, And how do you think China 1119 01:04:09.639 --> 01:04:11.920 would be looking at that four day. 1120 01:04:11.920 --> 01:04:14.039 On the Actually good question. They've you know, we never 1121 01:04:14.159 --> 01:04:16.760 spoke about China. But here's the thing. I think what 1122 01:04:17.119 --> 01:04:20.599 China look, they study conflicts very closely. They look at 1123 01:04:20.760 --> 01:04:24.760 every single conflict, they learn lessons from it. I'm sure 1124 01:04:24.800 --> 01:04:29.320 they've seen the Iran US conflict and they're looking at 1125 01:04:29.400 --> 01:04:31.760 how they could use it in the Taiwan Straits thing, 1126 01:04:31.800 --> 01:04:34.239 for instance, if they were to launch an invasion of 1127 01:04:34.280 --> 01:04:42.039 Taiwan or whatever. Hopefully that never happens because all of 1128 01:04:42.119 --> 01:04:47.440 their you know, military lessons are theoretical if you look 1129 01:04:47.440 --> 01:04:49.360 at it from seventy nine homers, they've not had any 1130 01:04:49.760 --> 01:04:52.199 real war fighting

experience. But if you're looking at them, 1131 01:04:52.360 --> 01:04:56.440 look taking the lessons from ops, indur lessons would be 1132 01:04:56.840 --> 01:05:00.360 this that there was this thing that the Indian military 1133 01:05:00.400 --> 01:05:03.599 prepared for, which was the Two Front War. We've been 1134 01:05:04.239 --> 01:05:06.559 talking about it from the nineteen sixties, from the time 1135 01:05:06.679 --> 01:05:11.280 that chucks Gun Valley was changed hands, you know, sixty 1136 01:05:11.360 --> 01:05:14.960 three and seventy one. Also there was that threat after 1137 01:05:15.000 --> 01:05:17.599 the sixty two war between India and China. You're looking 1138 01:05:17.599 --> 01:05:23.280 at two unsettled boundaries, and China has you know, accentuated 1139 01:05:23.400 --> 01:05:27.639 this two front dilemma for US by arming Pakistan. That's 1140 01:05:27.639 --> 01:05:30.840 what they do. They're masters of grand strategy in the 1141 01:05:30.920 --> 01:05:33.920 sense and they have North Korea for handling South Korea 1142 01:05:33.960 --> 01:05:37.000 and Japan and the United States, and they have Pakistan 1143 01:05:37.519 --> 01:05:42.679 to kind of fire wall India into South Asia. Now 1144 01:05:42.840 --> 01:05:46.000 what happens is that in a two front war that 1145 01:05:46.119 --> 01:05:49.960 the Indian military would be faced with, this dynamic response 1146 01:05:50.000 --> 01:05:53.719 strategy allows them to rapidly take care of one front, 1147 01:05:54.519 --> 01:05:57.719 which is the Pakistan Front, and then focus a lot 1148 01:05:57.840 --> 01:06:02.239 of their war fighting potential onto the China front. So 1149 01:06:03.119 --> 01:06:07.199 the Chinese military, especially the Western Theater Command that straddles 1150 01:06:07.639 --> 01:06:11.000 Sinjiang and Tibet, will now look at it as a 1151 01:06:11.320 --> 01:06:15.360 situation where the Indian military is not as threatened by 1152 01:06:15.480 --> 01:06:19.199 their Western flying as they would be in the past, 1153 01:06:19.920 --> 01:06:22.039 where you know, they said, oh, you know, these guys 1154 01:06:22.079 --> 01:06:24.800 are going to be distracted. Their force is going to 1155 01:06:24.800 --> 01:06:26.840 be looking left and right. Army is going to be 1156 01:06:26.880 --> 01:06:30.079 looking left and right. Now with this happening with post 1157 01:06:30.159 --> 01:06:34.519 operations in there, you have demonstrated the ability to at 1158 01:06:34.639 --> 01:06:38.119 least not collapse, but at least paralyze one front very 1159 01:06:38.880 --> 01:06:41.639 quickly in you know, twenty four forty eight hours or 1160 01:06:41.719 --> 01:06:45.559 something like that, and then reorient all your forces towards 1161 01:06:45.599 --> 01:06:48.599 the northern to hold the line. This is how they 1162 01:06:48.599 --> 01:06:52.119 would be seen and it's a very big thing because 1163 01:06:52.320 --> 01:06:54.880 if you have that ability

to do that because of technology, 1164 01:06:57.079 --> 01:07:03.239 then you have your your bigger military programs will follow 1165 01:07:03.280 --> 01:07:05.559 down that line. And if you look at what the 1166 01:07:05.639 --> 01:07:08.519 Prime Minister said again on the fifteenth of August last year, 1167 01:07:09.199 --> 01:07:13.119 he didn't speak about getting more submarines or aircraft carriers 1168 01:07:13.199 --> 01:07:18.079 of fighter aircraft or tanks or infantry divisions. He just 1169 01:07:18.119 --> 01:07:22.440 said Sudarshan Chakra mission Sudarshan Chakra. So the political leadership 1170 01:07:22.480 --> 01:07:27.079 has seen this as being one of those game changing 1171 01:07:27.800 --> 01:07:30.719 war fighting technologies. This is not to suggest that any 1172 01:07:30.760 --> 01:07:34.039 of these platforms are redundant, or that you will not 1173 01:07:34.159 --> 01:07:36.119 need submarines, or you won't need fighter jets, or you 1174 01:07:36.199 --> 01:07:38.280 won't need a forty two scored in air force. You 1175 01:07:38.400 --> 01:07:42.639 do need all of these, but the paradigm of war 1176 01:07:42.719 --> 01:07:46.679 fighting today gives you more options to strike and hold, 1177 01:07:46.960 --> 01:07:49.199 you know, fronts like the problems that we are faced 1178 01:07:49.239 --> 01:07:54.199 with with say a drone missile force, rocket force acting 1179 01:07:54.280 --> 01:07:57.840 in conjunction with your traditional structures. So that's the reason 1180 01:07:57.920 --> 01:08:00.639 that they're going after this Suur Shan chuck a big time, 1181 01:08:00.960 --> 01:08:03.960 which we've discussed in the past, so it completely alters 1182 01:08:04.039 --> 01:08:06.119 the you know that That's that's why it's saying that 1183 01:08:06.679 --> 01:08:10.880 Sindura's is a is a watershed in the way India 1184 01:08:10.920 --> 01:08:13.880 has kind of fought its wars. It has it's given 1185 01:08:13.960 --> 01:08:18.520 a concept, it's proved that concept in actual war fighting terms, 1186 01:08:19.119 --> 01:08:22.399 and now you can build on that for imagining bigger, 1187 01:08:23.359 --> 01:08:27.399 you know, war fighting scenarios like again, God for a bit, 1188 01:08:27.560 --> 01:08:29.279 a two front war or something like that. You have 1189 01:08:29.319 --> 01:08:31.800 the ability to handle one front. So your military is 1190 01:08:31.880 --> 01:08:35.520 more confident in its capabilities and it believes that these 1191 01:08:35.600 --> 01:08:39.760 are the h you know, homegrown architecture that you need 1192 01:08:39.840 --> 01:08:41.680 to you know, focus on drown missile and all that 1193 01:08:41.800 --> 01:08:44.479 to basically hold one of these fronts. So I think 1194 01:08:44.560 --> 01:08:47.600 that is why Sindura is so useful and that's why 1195 01:08:47.720 --> 01:08:50.720 you know stuff like the dynamic response strategy. You know 1196 01:08:50.800 --> 01:08:53.680 that that becomes so important. 1197 01:08:54.359 --> 01:08:57.039 Great, excellent answer, actually, and I think that's a very 1198 01:08:57.079 --> 01:08:59.079 good point on which we can end this episode. 1199 01:08:59.159 --> 01:09:02.279 So thanks and the it was great chatting with you. 1200 01:09:02.600 --> 01:09:05.760 As always, Thanks for having me, and thanks is always. 1201 01:09:05.479 --> 01:09:07.520 To our listeners and yours. That's it for the six 1202 01:09:07.560 --> 01:09:09.680 depends does for more tuning in next week. Till then, 1203 01:09:09.760 --> 01:09:11.359 stay safe, not tossing any boundaries. 1204 01:09:11.720 --> 01:09:12.600 A passport. 1205 01:09:18.760 --> 01:09:40.600 Ka kab, the maps, Arch, the radio, Apple Podcast, Spotify 1206 01:09:42.479 --> 01:09:45.560 Audio platform, soun