النص الكامل لحلقة We Talk to Stephen

corrections. 00:05:28.858 --> 00:05:32.178 And, and so that's interesting because sometimes, you know, as we were talking 00:05:32.178 --> 00:05:37.478 before, sometimes I share my opinion on things and it's not necessarily heard the same way, right? 00:05:37.598 --> 00:05:41.398 People that don't have that lived experience, see the world in their own unique 00:05:41.398 --> 00:05:44.598 flavor and they don't maybe want to see the importance of having kind of recovery 00:05:44.598 --> 00:05:46.078 systems involved in stuff. 00:05:46.078 --> 00:05:51.458 And then there's others like Director Gookin and others in the department that are begging, 00:05:51.718 --> 00:05:55.018 asking for that voice to be at the table, which I think is really cool and speaks 00:05:55.018 --> 00:05:58.218 to, you know, 10 years ago, you weren't going to have a guy with lived experience 00:05:58.218 --> 00:06:03.018 necessarily inside the walls of the Department of Corrections being asked to share that experience. 00:06:03.318 --> 00:06:05.758 Well, you know, what's funny is like talk about. 00:06:06.008 --> 00:06:10.108 My addiction, like my little alcoholic self showing up when I was a kid, 00:06:10.228 --> 00:06:14.648 because I used to think about prison as a child. 00:06:15.328 --> 00:06:21.088 And I had a romanticization about it, where I was like, okay, 00:06:21.268 --> 00:06:25.508 well, I am going to be fed and housed. 00:06:25.648 --> 00:06:30.228 And I'm going to have a lot of time to work on whatever it is I'm fascinated 00:06:30.228 --> 00:06:32.128 with at the time and probably, 00:06:32.308 --> 00:06:35.068 you know, have time to get like ripped and that was just 00:06:35.068 --> 00:06:38.568 like my like weird little obsession with either it 00:06:38.568 --> 00:06:43.868 was prison or the other fantasy that I had was being shipwrecked and being the 00:06:43.868 --> 00:06:49.088 only survivor with like a library full of books that I had to keep me company 00:06:49.088 --> 00:06:53.848 and it was just like that was like my first dream as a child was total isolation 00:06:53.848 --> 00:06:58.168 I was gonna say you're moving toward isolation what's kind of funny is like your. 00:06:58.568 --> 00:07:02.428 Explanation of prison that's what it can be right to a certain extent that's 00:07:02.428 --> 00:07:03.648 what I was able to use it for. 00:07:03.848 --> 00:07:06.768 It was more complicated than that, but it can be as simple as that. Right. 00:07:07.028 --> 00:07:11.128 And there's a piece of that, you know, when you talk about, there's a piece 00:07:11.128 --> 00:07:12.668 of that that's hard to move away from. 00:07:12.908 --> 00:07:17.368 And so the longer that you stay in that space, three hots, a cot, 00:07:17.668 --> 00:07:19.428 I know my structure of my day. 00:07:19.428 --> 00:07:22.408 I have my basic needs met. I can play cards. 00:07:22.408 --> 00:07:26.448 I can watch TV. I can read and I can get, I can work out, 00:07:26.628 --> 00:07:29.948 you know, and at times this world 00:07:29.948 --> 00:07:33.068 out here is more difficult than prison is prison has 00:07:33.068 --> 00:07:35.908 its own set of struggles and and also montana state 00:07:35.908 --> 00:07:40.668 prison is a small microcosm of like the greater idea of what is prison and so 00:07:40.668 --> 00:07:45.328 you know fed time in california or even state time in california much more difficult 00:07:45.328 --> 00:07:49.328 a lot more politics a lot more violence but montana state prison and deer lodge 00:07:49.328 --> 00:07:53.348 montana it wasn't didn't have to be that difficult you know and and so. 00:07:54.128 --> 00:07:58.168 You don't have an uncorrect wait were you at deer lodge mm-hmm, 00:07:58.752 --> 00:08:02.312 That's where I did all my time was Deer Lodge and then the boot camp program. 00:08:02.692 --> 00:08:07.152 And then what was the which one was more grueling for you, spiritually speaking, 00:08:07.332 --> 00:08:10.192 like which one was more of an ego killer for you? 00:08:10.972 --> 00:08:17.092 It depends on what part of the ego you want to talk about. The prison itself was interesting. 00:08:17.252 --> 00:08:20.772 It definitely will kill your spirit if you give it enough time. for 00:08:20.772 --> 00:08:23.492 myself I knew going in I already had this kind of 00:08:23.492 --> 00:08:27.012 motif building in my mind of like the spiritual warrior 00:08:27.012 --> 00:08:29.872 you know this life these things that 00:08:29.872 --> 00:08:33.612 are happening in my outside world they're going to happen for me right I was 00:08:33.612 --> 00:08:37.192 already on a spiritual journey by the time I arrived at prison I told you a 00:08:37.192 --> 00:08:41.852 little bit before but that part of how I arrived at prison was actually I could 00:08:41.852 --> 00:08:46.012 have beat my charge and instead I had a spiritual experience a life review pushed 00:08:46.012 --> 00:08:49.592 in front of me on the way back to the interrogation room and was like, 00:08:50.072 --> 00:08:51.972 okay, God, I'm going to give this to you. 00:08:52.052 --> 00:08:54.572 I'm going to tell the truth here and I'm going to see whether you're real or not. 00:08:54.972 --> 00:08:57.752 And that led to prison because what I was confessing to was, 00:08:57.812 --> 00:08:59.352 you know, armed robbery, felony armed robbery. 00:09:00.132 --> 00:09:04.932 And I made decisions after that, that didn't impact my case very well as far 00:09:04.932 --> 00:09:08.352 as being able to stay in the community because I was still in active addiction and psychosis. 00:09:08.532 --> 00:09:13.972 And, you know, so, so spiritually I was already on a journey when I wound up 00:09:13.972 --> 00:09:18.752 in prison and I said, I'm going to see what I can do to make this place be helpful 00:09:18.752 --> 00:09:22.372 to me, you know, but I looked around and saw. 00:09:23.391 --> 00:09:27.111 How painful being trapped there would be. So I also made the

decision to, 00:09:27.511 --> 00:09:30.791 you know, for my spirit, how painful that would be for my spirit and my soul 00:09:30.791 --> 00:09:32.471 and my ego, how much that would crush me. 00:09:32.651 --> 00:09:36.051 And so I made the decision that whatever it takes, I'm going to try to make this a once and done. 00:09:36.811 --> 00:09:41.611 Going into boot camp after, you know, roughly two years incarcerated as a way 00:09:41.611 --> 00:09:44.871 out, that's the way the parole board gave me to get out of incarceration. 00:09:45.411 --> 00:09:48.511 And I went in there and it was tough, right? It was physically, 00:09:48.891 --> 00:09:50.891 mentally, emotionally, psychologically 00:09:50.891 --> 00:09:53.731 demanding every day. It was the hardest thing I'd ever done. 00:09:54.091 --> 00:09:57.731 And looking back, I'm really grateful for that experience. So ego killer, 00:09:58.031 --> 00:10:01.571 like that killed my ego, but not, I don't think in the way that you intended, 00:10:01.831 --> 00:10:05.031 you know, like spiritually prison was more of a killer, but I, 00:10:05.171 --> 00:10:06.851 but I was able to keep that at bay. 00:10:07.411 --> 00:10:13.451 Bootcamp tested me and I grew a lot as a result. I'm really thankful for that opportunity. 00:10:14.151 --> 00:10:21.411 Well, but do you feel like you have taken lessons learned from your time in prison? 00:10:22.591 --> 00:10:29.251 With you in the present day where like the dividends are actually paying out. 00:10:29.411 --> 00:10:33.431 It was not fun at the time, but the dividends are paying out in some form. 00:10:33.571 --> 00:10:37.051 I don't know if it's like patience or just appreciation for like, 00:10:37.191 --> 00:10:43.091 you know, your actual freedom or I don't know. I'm, I'm curious about that. 00:10:43.391 --> 00:10:46.811 Yeah. Yes. All the above, right. Patience for sure. You know, 00:10:46.891 --> 00:10:49.331 nothing is on your time and you have to learn that real quick. 00:10:49.651 --> 00:10:53.851 And it's, you know, some guys I still work with that get out and they still haven't learned that. 00:10:53.951 --> 00:10:58.391 And I'm like, Hey, you know, the, the DOC has you, like you can either learn 00:10:58.391 --> 00:11:01.091 to be in relationship with it and you have to accept that really quick. 00:11:01.231 --> 00:11:05.251 So, you know, it's a great, the serenity prayer comes in useful or is a great 00:11:05.251 --> 00:11:08.711 manifestation of like what you learn in prison, you know, cause you don't have 00:11:08.711 --> 00:11:10.671 control over what happens to you on the daily. 00:11:11.051 --> 00:11:13.911 You have control of your actions and different stuff, but your daily routine, 00:11:13.911 --> 00:11:16.671 when you're getting out, that's all dictated by something greater than you. 00:11:16.871 --> 00:11:19.931 And that is the department of Montana department of corrections at that point. 00:11:21.888 --> 00:11:26.068 But I was able to bring

that lesson with me. One thing I really learned in prison 00:11:26.068 --> 00:11:29.948 was like, I had told myself a story based off my traumas when I was younger. 00:11:30.328 --> 00:11:34.128 They were overwhelming for me at the time. And I spiraled out of those traumas 00:11:34.128 --> 00:11:37.588 and I found substances, marijuana, alcohol, and that was the gateway. 00:11:37.808 --> 00:11:42.208 Okay, that's freedom for me. And I chased that to the ends of the earth into 00:11:42.208 --> 00:11:43.888 a prison cell and with a needle in my arm. 00:11:44.348 --> 00:11:47.448 And then I show up in prison and I heard what real trauma looked like. 00:11:47.548 --> 00:11:52.488 I heard what real sexual and physical abuse looked like. I heard what real abandonment looked like. 00:11:52.728 --> 00:11:57.068 I heard, and what it meant to me at the time is I was listening to people's 00:11:57.068 --> 00:12:01.848 stories and realized how messed up life really can be and how comparatively 00:12:01.848 --> 00:12:04.468 easy, if you want to compare, I had it. 00:12:05.068 --> 00:12:11.648 But yet my trauma was overwhelming for me and I reacted out of that space in 00:12:11.648 --> 00:12:13.228 really self-destructive ways. 00:12:13.228 --> 00:12:19.208 And so I realized that I came to the conclusion that trauma isn't what happens 00:12:19.208 --> 00:12:20.908 to us. It's our experience of it. 00:12:21.328 --> 00:12:25.548 And that leads me into like my philosophy of psychology, which is that it's 00:12:25.548 --> 00:12:29.668 so much about perception and experience and that you can then change that. 00:12:29.788 --> 00:12:31.268 It gives you some moldability. Right. 00:12:31.568 --> 00:12:37.608 I totally agree with that, which it's making me focus on the word real when 00:12:37.608 --> 00:12:41.148 you're talking about like they had real trauma. Right. 00:12:41.792 --> 00:12:47.632 If your perception is that, you know, a scale of, from a scale from zero to 00:12:47.632 --> 00:12:52.972 10, 10 being like real trauma, zero being like a padded, comfy life. 00:12:54.212 --> 00:13:00.152 And this is, I think that this, this can be a sort of jungle of a conversation 00:13:00.152 --> 00:13:04.992 topic for people who have quote unquote gone through real trauma, whatever that means. 00:13:06.832 --> 00:13:11.832 The perception is going to be the qualifier, right? It's your perception that's 00:13:11.832 --> 00:13:14.152 going to qualify how hard that hit. 00:13:15.072 --> 00:13:20.392 And I just think about that because there's so many people that come into the 00:13:20.392 --> 00:13:26.412 rooms and they feel like they haven't like, quote unquote, like qualified hitting 00:13:26.412 --> 00:13:27.712 a sufficient bottom yet. 00:13:28.012 --> 00:13:33.912 Right. Because maybe their last drunk didn't look like the bender of the person 00:13:33.912 --> 00:13:37.052 who like had a kind of skid row experience next to them. 00:13:37.972 --> 00:13:41.572 Maybe they had

like a quiet implosion but 00:13:41.572 --> 00:13:44.692 my thought with that is always like who fucking cares it's 00:13:44.692 --> 00:13:48.472 just a miracle you made it in here and you experienced enough pain whatever 00:13:48.472 --> 00:13:53.052 your version of that is you know and I'm just wondering like when you think 00:13:53.052 --> 00:13:57.632 back of that version of Stephen who was sitting there and listening to these 00:13:57.632 --> 00:14:02.892 stories like do you have is there like deep compassion for him? 00:14:03.292 --> 00:14:07.092 Or is there like, oh, this is great that this is the time where he figured out 00:14:07.092 --> 00:14:09.972 that it wasn't that bad? Or like, how do you, I don't know, how do you speak 00:14:09.972 --> 00:14:11.152 to that version of yourself? 00:14:11.452 --> 00:14:14.852 Yeah. And I do want to acknowledge too, like, thank you even for the redirection. 00:14:14.992 --> 00:14:18.092 So I'm sitting here saying that my trauma was just as real for me. 00:14:18.292 --> 00:14:21.852 And yet I'm also saying real trauma, real trauma, real trauma. 00:14:22.012 --> 00:14:25.052 Right. And so I still live in that comparative perspective and I, 00:14:25.052 --> 00:14:28.452 And still give, you know, and I think intentionally from, 00:14:28.992 --> 00:14:35.312 I'm trying to give observance, right, to some of the stories I heard and the 00:14:35.312 --> 00:14:40.572 acknowledgement of like how deep down that trauma will some people's experience takes them, right? 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:44.460 But as a byproduct of that, I'm still discounting my own, even in that statement. 00:14:44.760 --> 00:14:48.520 So thank you for that kind of. I get it, though. It's a hard line because you 00:14:48.520 --> 00:14:51.520 do hear some really, really grim stories. 00:14:51.860 --> 00:14:58.200 Like the place that I go to when I think about like what my version of someone's 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:02.240 like real trauma is versus mine is like, you know, women that get locked in 00:15:02.240 --> 00:15:04.380 some creepy dude's basement for 10 years. 00:15:04.820 --> 00:15:09.480 You know, that's what always levels me when I'm feeling sorry for myself. 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:13.080 So I get it. That's such a human thing and also real, too. 00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:18.820 But, you know, then we have to hold a space for exactly what you followed it 00:15:18.820 --> 00:15:22.340 up with, which is, wow, perception is so powerful, too. 00:15:22.780 --> 00:15:26.680 It is. And, you know, to answer your question, like, do I look back at Stephen 00:15:26.680 --> 00:15:29.900 sitting there in that cell or, you know, multiple cells having those conversations? 00:15:30.920 --> 00:15:36.440 How do I view him? Right. Like, I was still just excited for the experience in a certain way. 00:15:36.620 --> 00:15:39.980 Yeah, I needed to get well. And I knew I wasn't going to get well on the streets. 00:15:39.980 --> 00:15:42.660 And so realistically i think if i didn't go 00:15:42.660 --> 00:15:45.460 to prison i'd probably be dead right now that was the you 00:15:45.460 --> 00:15:49.020 know i was yeah shooting up heroin methamphetamine anything 00:15:49.020 --> 00:15:51.860 and everything that i could get and that was the culmination of 15 years 00:15:51.860 --> 00:15:54.500 of just seeking any way to alter my reality you know 00:15:54.500 --> 00:15:58.060 and and never tried to go to treatment never tried to get help i had people 00:15:58.060 --> 00:16:01.980 begging me offering to pay you know and i was just like nope like i know i need 00:16:01.980 --> 00:16:06.380 to get well i hate my life and fuck off i'm sticking this needle in my arm you 00:16:06.380 --> 00:16:11.920 know and so i had the opportunity and I believe it was God or whatever spiritual 00:16:11.920 --> 00:16:14.460 thing it is that runs this, this world. 00:16:14.640 --> 00:16:17.740 I don't like to, you know, God's a good framework that we can talk through, 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:19.720 but I don't necessarily subscribe that way. 00:16:20.070 --> 00:16:23.650 And I gave me a lot of really cool sellies, a lot of really cool people to talk 00:16:23.650 --> 00:16:24.990 to and a lot of great experience. 00:16:25.170 --> 00:16:28.870 And so like, I was excited even then to just learn things and to challenge myself. 00:16:29.050 --> 00:16:32.250 And so do I look back with compassion? I don't even know if I really look anywhere 00:16:32.250 --> 00:16:35.770 with that much compassion, but I do look with intellectual curiosity. 00:16:35.770 --> 00:16:39.430 And I was like, you know, I can see him being excited there. 00:16:39.550 --> 00:16:40.970 And I love that for him. Right. 00:16:41.390 --> 00:16:45.350 In that he was willing to grow. I was willing to grow as willing to hear these 00:16:45.350 --> 00:16:47.910 things and change and challenge and alter. 00:16:48.210 --> 00:16:51.110 And and yet still, I'm trying to like be tough and walk this prison. 00:16:51.310 --> 00:16:53.170 You know, it's like you're trying to figure out who you are, 00:16:53.290 --> 00:16:56.990 you know, but I do say I went into prison at 27. I think I was 27. 00:16:57.550 --> 00:17:01.250 And I went in a boy and then I did come out more of a man, you know, 00:17:01.410 --> 00:17:05.430 and I because I was willing to accept responsibility for where I was and where I was going. 00:17:05.770 --> 00:17:09.410 I, that was the hard line. My back was against the wall. I needed to make something 00:17:09.410 --> 00:17:12.150 of myself and I got more in touch with my physical self. 00:17:12.230 --> 00:17:15.030 You know, I did work out, I did get in shape. It was the first time I've always 00:17:15.030 --> 00:17:18.730 been like more slender, you know, and that's hard as a man, right? 00:17:18.750 --> 00:17:22.470 I had feelings of body dysmorphia to a certain extent. 00:17:22.570 --> 00:17:25.330 I wasn't happy with who I was, you know, I

didn't feel like it fit the framework 00:17:25.330 --> 00:17:27.630 of manhood and I came out and I felt better about that, you know, 00:17:27.670 --> 00:17:31.930 and I'd survived some scary ass situations, you know, some dudes that could pummel me. 00:17:32.070 --> 00:17:34.230 And I would, and it's like, you, you can't really back down. 00:17:34.370 --> 00:17:37.350 You have to, you have to at least stand your ground. Right. 00:17:37.630 --> 00:17:40.970 And that's where I was able to draw that line and was able to navigate it without 00:17:40.970 --> 00:17:42.990 having to deal with too much violence 00:17:42.990 --> 00:17:45.530 or any of that. And so prison was terrifying. I didn't want to go. 00:17:45.870 --> 00:17:49.430 I was kicking and screaming, throwing tantrums, basically in county jail, 00:17:49.630 --> 00:17:53.710 afraid to go face it because am I going to come out alive? Am I going to come 00:17:53.710 --> 00:17:55.030 out? What's going to happen? You know? 00:17:55.670 --> 00:18:00.930 And I'm super happy that I went through that ages for myself and what it brought me. 00:18:01.607 --> 00:18:05.467 Confidence and bearing and something to live for, something to strive for, 00:18:05.587 --> 00:18:09.167 something to move away from too. But I let it be a transition period for me. 00:18:09.347 --> 00:18:14.147 And that doesn't mean that I walked out and was sober. I used in prison. I used in pre-release. 00:18:14.267 --> 00:18:17.707 I thought my time started the day I got out the gates. And then day one, 00:18:17.707 --> 00:18:20.307 I thought my buddy was going to come over and play video games. 00:18:20.447 --> 00:18:23.307 And instead he came over with a couple of girls and, and, and some, 00:18:23.467 --> 00:18:26.267 and alcohol and some drugs. I don't even know what we were doing. 00:18:26.327 --> 00:18:27.947 And we were off to the races that weekend. 00:18:28.127 --> 00:18:32.587 And, um, and I was like, fuck. A smorgasbord. Dude, it was wild. 00:18:32.867 --> 00:18:37.287 I was snorting the lines of this disassociative, like random research chemical. 00:18:37.507 --> 00:18:44.927 And I started tripping out and I just saw like 40 different images of my PO who I just met. 00:18:45.507 --> 00:18:47.787 And he's like, hey, I don't know what it is about you booters, 00:18:47.887 --> 00:18:50.887 which is what they call people out of bootcamp. He's like, but you either build 00:18:50.887 --> 00:18:52.947 each other up or you take each other down real quick. 00:18:53.187 --> 00:18:56.067 And I just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Because here I am at this party with 00:18:56.067 --> 00:18:58.867 a bunch of people I don't know with a guy I was in bootcamp with that I thought 00:18:58.867 --> 00:19:01.467 my time started the day i got out the gate but i hadn't done any of the 00:19:01.467 --> 00:19:05.127 work not enough of the work to get to where i needed to be and so 00:19:05.127 --> 00:19:08.207 i said fuck it and i isolated i was 00:19:08.207 --> 00:19:12.227 in great falls i'd go to work go to go to my job i'd meet a couple friends and 00:19:12.227 --> 00:19:16.927 i just like just white knuckled recovery for like six and a half months i went 00:19:16.927 --> 00:19:20.587 to some aa some na with some of the guys that were in the pre-release still 00:19:20.587 --> 00:19:24.467 that i was friends with and they were just real great fallsy and dry and like 00:19:24.467 --> 00:19:27.327 old white guys that weren't speaking my language, 00:19:27.647 --> 00:19:30.047 you know, and I didn't want any part of it. I just went there to, 00:19:30.540 --> 00:19:32.700 chill, you know, cause that's where they could get a pass to. 00:19:32.860 --> 00:19:35.040 And I didn't, there's nothing there that spoke to me. 00:19:35.560 --> 00:19:40.740 And, you know, then I came back to Missoula chasing after my ex who I'd, 00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:45.100 who had been my kryptonite before I went to prison and she was in, she was in struggle. 00:19:45.380 --> 00:19:49.760 And so I moved my whole life and, you know, wanted to be the savior, 00:19:50.120 --> 00:19:54.060 white knight savior that, you know, trope into and showed up at her apartment. 00:19:54.220 --> 00:19:55.540 She was 80 pounds soaking wet. 00:19:55.720 --> 00:20:01.700 Her dad just overdosed on, on heroin. And, and she was, she was pretty bad into 00:20:01.700 --> 00:20:03.060 use and I thought I could save her. 00:20:03.180 --> 00:20:06.580 And, you know, a couple months later, I'm sticking a needle in my arm again. So. 00:20:07.760 --> 00:20:11.580 Do you think with the year, like now that you have like the years and the experience 00:20:11.580 --> 00:20:15.560 that I love, I love to, and you guys already touched on it, but just the, 00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:18.460 I just feel like if it's your experience, it's real. 00:20:18.800 --> 00:20:22.060 That's it. That's what like recovery books do say. I think the big book even 00:20:22.060 --> 00:20:24.780 says it. I know we're not really going down that route, but it is real. 00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:29.360 And so then that discontinues the whole comparative culture that we live in 00:20:29.360 --> 00:20:33.840 and discrediting our own experiences. And then also like enables us to like, 00:20:33.980 --> 00:20:37.000 oh, shit, well, I haven't gone through that, but I know who's someone who has. 00:20:37.120 --> 00:20:38.080 So you should reach out to them. 00:20:38.220 --> 00:20:41.240 You know, like I also love it because it's not like you're like this big guy, 00:20:41.500 --> 00:20:43.760 but you used to survive prison, let's say. 00:20:43.980 --> 00:20:48.420 Right. So you talk about manhood and like all this stuff and you like knew what 00:20:48.420 --> 00:20:50.900 you had to do. And one of them was listen. 00:20:51.340 --> 00:20:54.260 You had to listen and get curious to these guys, right? 00:20:54.520 --> 00:21:00.600 And I think that that is like the most inviting way to

develop a relationship 00:21:00.600 --> 00:21:05.480 with somebody, you know, and that'll get you right through. And there's a thing too. 00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:12.140 So when you know what you need to do, you can survive a lot of different situations, right? 00:21:12.660 --> 00:21:16.880 I think that comes from a feel, from an energy, from a type of person. 00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:21.820 It's kind of like when people give guys shit for going bald and there are like 00:21:21.820 --> 00:21:25.020 some hot confident bald dudes out there because they know what they need to 00:21:25.020 --> 00:21:27.680 do so then maybe by then and i don't know that like. 00:21:28.739 --> 00:21:32.059 Relapse or sobriety is even like really the story we're trying to tell here. 00:21:32.179 --> 00:21:33.379 But here you get to Great Falls. 00:21:33.999 --> 00:21:38.119 You don't really want to hear it anymore. Right. They've got like nothing. 00:21:38.479 --> 00:21:41.139 Well, I thought I knew it. Okay. So you thought you knew it. 00:21:41.179 --> 00:21:44.419 I thought I was like, I knew that I needed to be sober. 00:21:44.639 --> 00:21:47.039 I knew that that's why God put me in prison. You know, that's what I, 00:21:47.099 --> 00:21:49.759 my confession was, it was like, Hey, I can't do this. 00:21:49.899 --> 00:21:54.079 And then I get given the opportunity and I'm like, well, but I still want to play around. 00:21:54.259 --> 00:21:57.059 You know, like I know I need this. I know that's why I'm here. 00:21:57.259 --> 00:22:01.799 I'm going to make the changes. I'm committed to change. I'm walking that path. I said all the things. 00:22:01.999 --> 00:22:04.919 And to a large extent, I learned a lot of those lessons right while I was in 00:22:04.919 --> 00:22:07.319 there. I didn't use a lot, but I did when opportunity came. 00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:10.519 Hell yeah. The car's bringing in some Suboxone. I'm going to use it, right? 00:22:10.599 --> 00:22:13.739 If there's this or that, like, yeah, I'm going to use it because I still loved 00:22:13.739 --> 00:22:16.279 that life to a certain extent, or it was difficult to let go. 00:22:16.439 --> 00:22:20.279 And it was part of how we survived, right? It was hunkering down and surviving. 00:22:20.459 --> 00:22:24.379 And then, but yeah, but my time, I got this. I can learn all the lessons I need 00:22:24.379 --> 00:22:26.459 to and my time starts the day I walk out the door. 00:22:26.659 --> 00:22:30.899 And then day one, I get rocked off my heels that I wasn't ready for. 00:22:31.139 --> 00:22:32.979 Right. And I thought I knew better. 00:22:33.459 --> 00:22:37.059 And so I had to then, oh, now the work starts. 00:22:37.479 --> 00:22:40.959 Right. And so I got released. Let's see. I'm trying to think I got released 00:22:40.959 --> 00:22:47.039 out of bootcamp into pre-release February 5th, I think of 2015. 00:22:47.639 --> 00:22:51.319 And my recovery date is February 14th of 2016. 00:22:51.319 --> 00:22:55.719 Right

and so there's a there's a nice year in between there where I was six 00:22:55.719 --> 00:23:01.279 and a half months of it was sober right but was I in recovery I don't know you 00:23:01.279 --> 00:23:04.819 know I was trying to figure out how to put that together right and yeah 00:23:05.253 --> 00:23:07.213 you know, and I couldn't even get right. I couldn't get well, 00:23:07.233 --> 00:23:10.273 I couldn't get right. I was trying to find opiates, nothing worked, you know? 00:23:10.473 --> 00:23:13.633 And I'm so grateful for that too. And I don't really like carry that with me, 00:23:13.713 --> 00:23:14.733 but it's just ironic to me. 00:23:14.993 --> 00:23:18.133 But I had a buddy that I was working with chance. He's the one that got me into 00:23:18.133 --> 00:23:21.153 the program. And at the beginning of that week, he had moved me out of her house. 00:23:21.713 --> 00:23:23.633 And it was funny because we were supposed to go. He's like, yeah, 00:23:23.653 --> 00:23:26.293 you can stay at my place with my parents. And then we come in and he tells them 00:23:26.293 --> 00:23:28.173 who he's trying to move in. And they're like, no dude. 00:23:28.353 --> 00:23:31.533 So I was like, I was like, bro, it's okay. I got a place I can go. 00:23:31.653 --> 00:23:34.373 And like, it was just funny, but he's like, Hey, let me take you to meetings. 00:23:35.213 --> 00:23:37.933 No, I'm good. I don't want your meetings. You know, I know what that's like. 00:23:37.993 --> 00:23:41.093 Right. I saw that. That's not how I'm going to get, that's not how I'm going to get sober. 00:23:41.833 --> 00:23:45.833 But at the end of that week, damn well, I was, I was willing and I was desperate 00:23:45.833 --> 00:23:49.353 and he can't, and I went back to him and he was like, so you ready now? You know? 00:23:49.853 --> 00:23:53.673 And I was like, yeah, I'm ready to go to a meeting. And it was that first meeting 00:23:53.673 --> 00:23:57.373 was new year's Eve. It was the revolving meeting at the church right down the way here. 00:23:57.773 --> 00:23:59.973 Like the one that runs the nooner. I can't think of what the church is, 00:23:59.973 --> 00:24:01.353 but they were doing 24 hour meetings. 00:24:01.453 --> 00:24:06.273 And I walked in there and, and it was weird and goofy. And it was like Missoula, 00:24:06.433 --> 00:24:08.893 you know, it was like, so Missoula. 00:24:09.213 --> 00:24:11.713 And I was like, okay, I can, I can fit in here, you know? And, 00:24:11.793 --> 00:24:14.953 and so I tried, I started hitting the meetings and hitting NA and hitting AA 00:24:14.953 --> 00:24:17.133 and that saved my life for a while there. 00:24:17.293 --> 00:24:21.673 What's funny is that I didn't realize, so we rocked our recoveries in sync, 00:24:21.773 --> 00:24:23.833 Chance and I, and we worked together. We ended up living together. 00:24:24.013 --> 00:24:27.373 We rocked meetings together. We celebrated birthdays together. 00:24:27.553 --> 00:24:31.793 We did all this, You know, I owe a lot of that early, early days to him and 00:24:31.793 --> 00:24:35.353 that, that camaraderie, you know, we'd sit outside, we'd get done with the eight 00:24:35.353 --> 00:24:38.373 o'clock and we'd be sitting outside young guns and we'd be smoking cigarettes. 00:24:38.413 --> 00:24:40.753 And I mean, we were hour to hour at that point, you know, talking, 00:24:40.893 --> 00:24:43.213 well, we'll get high after this meeting, you know, like we'll, 00:24:43.213 --> 00:24:46.053 we'll score after this meeting. Then we get done with young guns. It's like 11 PM. 00:24:46.493 --> 00:24:49.513 When you're, by the time you're done smoking with people, it was 1130 and we'll 00:24:49.513 --> 00:24:51.593 get high in the morning, but then let's go to the six. 00:24:51.713 --> 00:24:55.093 Cause you know, the 6 AM, whatever it is. Right. Like, um, but we just hit it 00:24:55.093 --> 00:24:58.773 really, really hard and we were hour to hour almost and 00:24:59.159 --> 00:25:01.259 And then we're like two or three months in and, and, you know, 00:25:01.339 --> 00:25:04.259 I had a number of relapses in there. I can tell that story, but I couldn't get 00:25:04.259 --> 00:25:05.459 more than three weeks at a time. 00:25:05.619 --> 00:25:08.999 That month was elusive for me for a number of months. That's why February 14th, 00:25:09.119 --> 00:25:11.839 you know, between new years and February 14th, I had three relapses. 00:25:12.939 --> 00:25:14.599 And, and, but one day I'm like, 00:25:15.102 --> 00:25:18.022 I look at Chance's sobriety date and I do the math and I was like, 00:25:18.782 --> 00:25:21.742 bro, you were like two days clean when you brought me into that meeting. 00:25:21.942 --> 00:25:25.902 So after he'd asked me if I wanted 12 steps, he had relapsed and brought me 00:25:25.902 --> 00:25:29.602 in. And I was like, I don't think I would have believed that this was like going to do anything. 00:25:30.582 --> 00:25:34.182 And I don't know. I mean, we were walking, but I think my journey was so difficult 00:25:34.182 --> 00:25:36.262 in those first few months that I just didn't catch it. 00:25:36.442 --> 00:25:39.662 And I was like, you like hoodwinked me into the meetings, man. 00:25:39.842 --> 00:25:40.942 You didn't have any time. 00:25:41.722 --> 00:25:45.342 But we did it together at that time, you know. Well, that's incredible. 00:25:45.582 --> 00:25:50.662 But it makes me think about when I first came in and if the person next to me 00:25:50.662 --> 00:25:54.142 had two hours more than me, I was like, tell me your wisdom. 00:25:54.602 --> 00:25:58.222 Like they did seem like an expert at the time. I remember someone getting 30 00:25:58.222 --> 00:26:01.782 days and being like, this person has some major shit figured out, 00:26:01.902 --> 00:26:07.202 you know, because time you do have a different relationship with time. 00:26:07.202 --> 00:26:11.922 And that relationship with time continues to evolve. 00:26:12.302

--> 00:26:19.942 My experience with where I am right now with my sobriety is that I sometimes 00:26:19.942 --> 00:26:25.182 wonder if that is my greatest defect, is that I don't understand time. 00:26:25.422 --> 00:26:29.642 I really, as a human being, I do not understand time. 00:26:29.942 --> 00:26:34.502 And sometimes I wonder if that is really all that this is about, 00:26:34.882 --> 00:26:38.262 you know, because I want instant gratification. I love instant gratification. 00:26:38.882 --> 00:26:47.082 And I have this complete inability to play the long game with anything until 00:26:47.082 --> 00:26:50.742 I started messing around with it with my sobriety. 00:26:50.862 --> 00:26:55.162 That was like the first inkling of like, okay, I'm going to set an intention 00:26:55.162 --> 00:26:59.502 and then I'm going to like, you know, go through this uncomfortable experience 00:26:59.502 --> 00:27:05.662 where I'm not experiencing gratification right away and see what happens. Well, it didn't kill me. 00:27:06.102 --> 00:27:08.882 And sometimes there's like a present at the end of it. 00:27:09.002 --> 00:27:12.722 And then you just sort of start building on that and getting better and better 00:27:12.722 --> 00:27:15.662 and better at it. And I think that, 00:27:16.192 --> 00:27:19.412 can be a spiritual awakening in its own right. 00:27:19.752 --> 00:27:27.212 I just had the experience of watching a good friend of mine. She is a Reiki master. 00:27:27.692 --> 00:27:32.732 She's very, very talented, very, very talented, and she's very, very specific. 00:27:33.292 --> 00:27:42.972 And she is posting content on Instagram daily and has been for over a year and 00:27:42.972 --> 00:27:47.732 would get like five likes, six likes, whatever Instagram talk hearts. 00:27:48.692 --> 00:27:55.772 And then all of a sudden, just one video that does not have, 00:27:55.912 --> 00:27:59.872 it doesn't feel distinct amongst the other videos that she made, 00:28:00.052 --> 00:28:04.472 but got a million views, you know? Wow. 00:28:06.012 --> 00:28:11.372 I'm learning about time through that experience. Like there's something about 00:28:11.372 --> 00:28:16.092 that experience where I can even it's not me having it, 00:28:16.172 --> 00:28:22.232 but I can like I can be so patient at this point where I can take on that information 00:28:22.232 --> 00:28:25.252 and apply it to whatever it is I'm doing. 00:28:25.252 --> 00:28:31.612 Like, so not only am I like able to start learning about time in the capacity 00:28:31.612 --> 00:28:35.112 that maybe like most 10 year olds have already learned about time, 00:28:35.272 --> 00:28:41.452 but I can also like witness other people's experiences with time at this point, you know. 00:28:41.672 --> 00:28:47.252 And I just think that's like an interesting phenomenon about us addicts. 00:28:47.312 --> 00:28:53.412 Addicts, I'm also going to just push it a little bit further and say it is my experience that. 00:28:54.253 --> 00:29:03.773 The areas of our life where we have deficiencies, once we like nosedive into those deficiencies, 00:29:04.253 --> 00:29:07.993 they really become areas where we want mastery, 00:29:08.333 --> 00:29:15.693 you know, and I know that people who are capable of, you know, 00:29:15.933 --> 00:29:20.013 working a program and like sticking to whatever it is they're sticking to in 00:29:20.013 --> 00:29:24.433 their sobriety go on to become very successful at things. 00:29:24.613 --> 00:29:29.093 And maybe the success is like they're successful at like that last marriage 00:29:29.093 --> 00:29:36.453 they were able to make work for 40 years or maybe their success is like they became rich as hell, 00:29:36.713 --> 00:29:41.013 you know, and specialized in something and then took it to the nth degree. 00:29:41.373 --> 00:29:48.233 Or maybe their success is like some, you know, hobby that they threw all of their energy into. 00:29:48.633 --> 00:29:54.133 But do you find that that's true with you? Like the energy that you had where 00:29:54.133 --> 00:29:58.553 you weren't able to apply it through the lens of time, 00:29:58.753 --> 00:30:01.953 where you had to get instant gratification, do you feel like that energy is 00:30:01.953 --> 00:30:06.153 now being pushed towards an endeavor that's growing and building in time? 00:30:07.053 --> 00:30:10.573 Yeah, I think, you know, Crosswinds is a result of that. 00:30:10.913 --> 00:30:15.453 My efforts in the community, who I am as a person, my spiritual life, 00:30:15.773 --> 00:30:19.613 you know, it's all like a manifestation, a metamorphosis of that energy. 00:30:19.773 --> 00:30:20.733 You know, I mean, how much... 00:30:21.728 --> 00:30:24.848 Most people wouldn't have even really known I was in addiction until closer 00:30:24.848 --> 00:30:28.028 to the end. You know, I was keeping two worlds really, really going. 00:30:28.588 --> 00:30:31.708 That's interesting. Sarah and I were just talking about that two-world concept. 00:30:31.888 --> 00:30:33.848 Yeah, I mean, I was. Like you're a walking apocalypse. 00:30:34.228 --> 00:30:37.748 Yeah, and yet I was in a bachelor's program for psychology, moving on. 00:30:37.848 --> 00:30:40.488 Like, you know, I was an upper middle class white boy going to college. 00:30:40.508 --> 00:30:44.908 Like, I had that persona, you know, professional, respected in the community. 00:30:44.908 --> 00:30:48.168 And then I was dealing drugs and just a inward a 00:30:48.168 --> 00:30:51.048 mess and wrecking relationships and you know using 00:30:51.048 --> 00:30:54.048 anything and everything I could every single hour of the day right chasing 00:30:54.048 --> 00:30:56.908 money chasing highs chasing some kind of experience outside 00:30:56.908 --> 00:31:01.708 of myself and so and both of those are fairly creationary processes you know 00:31:01.708 --> 00:31:05.828 and so to be able to like meld those then into one through the crucible of prison 00:31:05.828 -->

00:31:09.668 and boot camp and coming out the other side and like having to hard line it 00:31:09.668 --> 00:31:13.608 through recovery and being willing to surrender so my statement to you earlier 00:31:13.608 --> 00:31:15.368 when you were talking about prison Like, how do you make it? 00:31:15.448 --> 00:31:18.328 It's just willingness also, you know, it wasn't even intentional. 00:31:18.488 --> 00:31:20.528 It was just willingness to be present in that moment, you know, 00:31:20.588 --> 00:31:23.928 and then willingness to be present in the moments that came after it. And so... 00:31:24.465 --> 00:31:29.105 I don't really, the healthier I get, the less I try to control the things around me. 00:31:29.225 --> 00:31:32.725 I feel like the more I'm just willing to let them be and let those processes 00:31:32.725 --> 00:31:37.025 move through me and through the world and like, okay, how do I surrender to 00:31:37.025 --> 00:31:40.625 this and, and, and learn to adapt to whatever's going on. 00:31:41.225 --> 00:31:44.745 And yeah, time, I just think is an interesting concept for any human trying 00:31:44.745 --> 00:31:48.625 to walk this earth or whatever exists out there, you know, but especially time 00:31:48.625 --> 00:31:50.965 since 2019, 2020, what does that mean? 00:31:51.185 --> 00:31:54.665 You know, and I don't know about you guys, but my memory gets weirder and weirder every day too. 00:31:54.825 --> 00:31:57.765 Like there's things I remember, there's things I don't. And so I'm just trying 00:31:57.765 --> 00:32:01.485 to live in this present moment, just move through whatever it is that I can 00:32:01.485 --> 00:32:04.305 and bring whatever energy I can to that moment. 00:32:04.485 --> 00:32:07.465 Sometimes that's not very much. Sometimes I'm falling apart, falling down. 00:32:07.705 --> 00:32:10.705 It takes months to move through some of that energy. And then other, 00:32:10.905 --> 00:32:15.025 others, it's like, man, I'd level up, you know, in a week more than I did in 00:32:15.025 --> 00:32:16.585 a year or something. Oh, yeah. 00:32:16.825 --> 00:32:22.625 I totally hear what you're saying. And I will also say part of my addiction 00:32:22.625 --> 00:32:24.985 was I love a psychedelic. 00:32:25.185 --> 00:32:29.385 And so when you're talking about time getting weirder and weirder, 00:32:29.845 --> 00:32:33.665 like, I crave that shit. I crave it. Like, 00:32:34.026 --> 00:32:39.866 If reality is getting weirder and more psychedelic, there is a component to 00:32:39.866 --> 00:32:42.266 me that is like, oh, yeah, scratch that itch. 00:32:42.386 --> 00:32:46.206 Let's get fucking weird as possible, which is what I love about this podcast, 00:32:46.406 --> 00:32:52.766 because for me, having had a spiritual awakening means like there were certain 00:32:52.766 --> 00:32:56.386 explorations that actually didn't end with drugs. 00:32:56.386 --> 00:33:01.346 They actually got deeper because I could bring an intellectual framework that

00:33:01.346 --> 00:33:04.766 gelled and a cogent way of thinking about it. 00:33:05.346 --> 00:33:09.146 It was like forced to be cohesive from like moment to moment to a certain extent. 00:33:09.386 --> 00:33:10.326 You're all building it in one 00:33:10.326 --> 00:33:13.466 box rather than splitting them apart and throwing them out the door. Yeah. 00:33:13.926 --> 00:33:18.686 OK, so on that note, I want to ask you this question because so just for the 00:33:18.686 --> 00:33:20.146 listener, just for some background. 00:33:21.506 --> 00:33:26.186 Stephen and I met for coffee a couple of days ago and, you know, 00:33:26.366 --> 00:33:32.206 part of his story is psychosis and some sort of incredible synchronicities that 00:33:32.206 --> 00:33:36.306 happened when you were high as balls. Yeah. 00:33:36.573 --> 00:33:41.353 But also being, you know, not high as balls. 00:33:41.693 --> 00:33:49.873 And Stephen was listening to one of our podcast episodes and thinking about 00:33:49.873 --> 00:33:54.673 just the work, you know, that we do with this podcast. 00:33:54.833 --> 00:33:59.713 And he was thinking about that. And I texted him simultaneously to say, 00:33:59.833 --> 00:34:03.093 like, hey, can you show up on Wednesday to be a guest on the podcast? 00:34:03.693 --> 00:34:06.973 And what a fun coincidence, right? What a fun synchronicity. 00:34:07.173 --> 00:34:11.693 But my experience is that that kind of stuff happens all the time. 00:34:11.693 --> 00:34:16.253 And I am completely online for it. I'm completely sober for it. 00:34:16.373 --> 00:34:20.553 It's not a result of like me being high or anything like that. 00:34:20.553 --> 00:34:25.993 And I am just curious about your experience with that kind of synchronicities 00:34:25.993 --> 00:34:30.333 or coincidences, or I'm very comfortable with the word psychic. 00:34:30.813 --> 00:34:34.153 What are your thoughts on it? Do you think like that's just a, 00:34:34.393 --> 00:34:36.173 you know, like, oh, yeah, that happens sometimes? 00:34:36.393 --> 00:34:40.473 Or do you think that part of being an addict is maybe we're tapping into some 00:34:40.473 --> 00:34:46.253 kind of live wire energy that is very real, logical and rational? 00:34:46.573 --> 00:34:49.793 Yeah, I don't think that I think we're spiritual beings having a human experience. 00:34:49.793 --> 00:34:53.213 I think that that transcends addiction, transcends everything, you know? 00:34:53.333 --> 00:34:58.733 And so we are all here collectively creating this like fucked up reality and 00:34:58.733 --> 00:35:00.713 then pointing fingers at each other and being like, Hey, this is you. 00:35:00.813 --> 00:35:04.893 And it's like, I love sitting back and you know, I feel a little Hayoka about 00:35:04.893 --> 00:35:07.333 it or a little, I got the trickster in me a little bit. 00:35:07.393 --> 00:35:10.173 Cause I sit back and I'm like, dude, I love that we're creating all this mess. 00:35:10.353 --> 00:35:13.253 You know, I want

something beautiful and better for us, right. 00:35:13.413 --> 00:35:16.053 As human beings, as a, as a, as human beings on this earth. 00:35:16.513 --> 00:35:20.513 And, but we have to be willing to laugh at it, right? So humor is a good way 00:35:20.513 --> 00:35:22.073 for me to navigate through that. 00:35:22.933 --> 00:35:27.093 I, you know, I, when you're talking about synchronicity, like that's the... 00:35:27.166 --> 00:35:31.146 One of the foundations of my spiritual pursuit it's 00:35:31.146 --> 00:35:35.206 it's like a it's a non-negotiable that 00:35:35.206 --> 00:35:39.066 synchronicity exists and that it's there for magical purposes and for me when 00:35:39.066 --> 00:35:44.006 i first woke up spiritually was on a high dose of psychedelics and and a nice 00:35:44.006 --> 00:35:49.026 combination of substances and i lived out the book the celestine prophecy in 00:35:49.026 --> 00:35:52.666 real time and it reorganized my world and a key premise. 00:35:52.846 --> 00:35:56.826 And that is following synchronicity and building personal power as a result and, 00:35:57.326 --> 00:36:00.506 realizing how we impact each other and how we can give that through love and 00:36:00.506 --> 00:36:03.326 through language and through conversation and also how we can take that from 00:36:03.326 --> 00:36:07.266 each other, you know, and that everything is based around energy and we're either 00:36:07.266 --> 00:36:08.946 taking it or we're building it, right? 00:36:09.066 --> 00:36:11.406 There's not really a nice mix between the two. And at times, 00:36:11.646 --> 00:36:12.786 yeah, at times we do it all, right? 00:36:13.206 --> 00:36:16.866 But so synchronicity has been something that I have followed and has been a 00:36:16.866 --> 00:36:18.506 marker on my path as we're walking. 00:36:18.666 --> 00:36:22.066 And so It's been cool lately because the last couple of years have been tough for me. 00:36:22.306 --> 00:36:25.446 I've been trying to figure out where I'm at, who I am, I've been struggling 00:36:25.446 --> 00:36:28.306 with a lot of things both professionally and personally. 00:36:28.806 --> 00:36:36.406 And so to see you running into you has been at the tail end of that a little bit. 00:36:36.506 --> 00:36:39.186 I've been coming out of it, but you've seen me navigate through some of it whether 00:36:39.186 --> 00:36:40.046 you're aware of it or not. 00:36:41.822 --> 00:36:45.622 It feels good to be back in a synchronistic flow where I came back from Peru 00:36:45.622 --> 00:36:49.642 and I feel light and I feel even though I'm wading through some really heavy 00:36:49.642 --> 00:36:53.442 stuff, I feel in my power again in a way that I haven't for a long time. 00:36:54.302 --> 00:36:57.362 And so, yeah, you know, we talked about this podcast, you know, 00:36:57.462 --> 00:36:59.942 that I've wanted to start my own and get that going. 00:37:00.042 --> 00:37:04.302 And I was like lovingly and respectfully and playfully annoyed when I found 00:37:04.302 --> 00:37:06.062 out that you guys already had this thing going on. 00:37:06.162 --> 00:37:09.442 And we'd been talking for months about the recovery community center and these 00:37:09.442 --> 00:37:12.822 movements that we're trying to do. And I saw the podcast being a part of that. 00:37:12.982 --> 00:37:16.062 And I'm like, oh man, Suzanne, is there already have theirs going on? 00:37:16.162 --> 00:37:19.802 Like, Oh, they beat me to the punch, you know, like, and so, 00:37:19.882 --> 00:37:21.402 yeah, you know, we talked about me coming on board. 00:37:21.502 --> 00:37:24.442 And then yesterday I'm listening to Zach's your last, your last guest. 00:37:24.562 --> 00:37:27.682 Who's a good friend of mine. I'm on the board of his, his nonprofit. 00:37:27.942 --> 00:37:30.962 And, you know, I've loved Zach for years ever since I first met him. 00:37:31.102 --> 00:37:32.622 He just has his own unique energy. 00:37:32.802 --> 00:37:37.242 And, and I love where he, his life has led him. And, and I was like, 00:37:37.474 --> 00:37:40.114 when am I going to be on this thing? And I, that was the thought I had. 00:37:40.134 --> 00:37:42.574 I mean, it was like a little playful, but it was like, I need to, 00:37:42.674 --> 00:37:45.274 I need to hit Suzanne up and be like, when are you getting me on? 00:37:45.514 --> 00:37:48.214 And then not even five minutes later, you shoot me a text and you're like, 00:37:48.294 --> 00:37:52.634 Hey, this might be too soon, but can you jump on board tomorrow after five? 00:37:52.894 --> 00:37:55.334 Which is funny because you talk about time and then, you know, 00:37:55.434 --> 00:37:57.794 you're like, yeah, after five, and then you schedule me for four 15 today, 00:37:57.894 --> 00:38:01.934 which I didn't realize, but we made it here and we're sitting here having this 00:38:01.934 --> 00:38:03.854 conversation. So, but I love that. 00:38:03.914 --> 00:38:06.374 That feels good to me. It feels like I'm back and sink. 00:38:06.694 --> 00:38:10.054 And, and, you know, I don't think it was our last convo, but the convo before 00:38:10.054 --> 00:38:11.154 I was like, Hey, let's have fun. 00:38:11.314 --> 00:38:14.014 You know, it was the one at the top hat. And I was like, let's go do this. 00:38:14.074 --> 00:38:16.734 Let's have fun. Cause recovery stopped being fun for me. 00:38:17.054 --> 00:38:21.414 You know, it was, I got in over my head trying to build crosswinds and that became my mission. 00:38:21.454 --> 00:38:24.714 That became everything, you know, and it was a impossible task the same way 00:38:24.714 --> 00:38:27.254 to get in a year and fucking sobriety was an impossible task. 00:38:27.434 --> 00:38:30.974 I remember when I finally got a year, I went to the 4d club with my dad, 00:38:30.974 --> 00:38:34.534 who's not in any kind on recovery, you know, like he's just kind of been pulled 00:38:34.534 --> 00:38:37.694 along on this journey of addiction and incarceration and everything else

with 00:38:37.694 --> 00:38:39.274 me and has always stood true by me. 00:38:39.354 --> 00:38:44.234 And he shows up for my year meeting and I, I start crying at the meeting when 00:38:44.234 --> 00:38:46.974 it comes to my time to share, cause I'm not stoked about getting a year. 00:38:47.074 --> 00:38:49.054 I set this impossible goal for myself. 00:38:49.214 --> 00:38:52.074 It was a year and I was counting every month cause that's how young guns did it right. 00:38:52.254 --> 00:38:54.574 Every month I could get a chip, I can get a coin, you know, like, 00:38:54.674 --> 00:38:57.034 and I make it to a year. What the fuck am I going to do now? 00:38:57.454 --> 00:39:00.874 I didn't plan for this. I didn't even think I'd ever get here, you know? And so, 00:39:01.094 --> 00:39:03.834 and that to a point is how crosswinds was for a while like we 00:39:03.834 --> 00:39:08.294 were so in survival mode we weren't ever with our heads above water myself and 00:39:08.294 --> 00:39:11.134 then peter when he came on board and then you know the rest of the great team 00:39:11.134 --> 00:39:16.454 that's kind of sprung up around that and just joined that mission that originally 00:39:16.454 --> 00:39:21.514 was mine and now it's become ours but you know then we get to a point where okay we're like we're, 00:39:22.009 --> 00:39:25.569 stable, right? Or this is, you know, you get to like this, this precipice of 00:39:25.569 --> 00:39:29.009 where I've built this thing and now I'm accepted in the community and I'm this and I'm that. 00:39:29.089 --> 00:39:33.929 I'm that. I've overcome everything that I needed to overcome and like, fuck, now what? Yeah. 00:39:34.489 --> 00:39:38.429 Yeah. And I don't remember. Oh yeah. So this, and then it just became like maintaining 00:39:38.429 --> 00:39:40.549 it. And I'll tell you what, I don't like maintaining, you know, 00:39:40.609 --> 00:39:41.929 I want to keep moving. I want to groove. 00:39:42.069 --> 00:39:45.389 I want to go forward. I want to get into something new and different and I want 00:39:45.389 --> 00:39:47.809 to throw myself off the ledge again. And I want to, I want to, 00:39:47.869 --> 00:39:49.409 I want to, I want to, I want to, you know, and that's an addiction. 00:39:49.929 --> 00:39:52.569 And so my ego was wrapped up in crosswinds there 00:39:52.569 --> 00:39:55.509 was no separation between the two and i don't want to maintain shit i 00:39:55.509 --> 00:39:58.289 can't maintain my life you know how am i going to maintain this thing 00:39:58.289 --> 00:40:01.189 that i built and i've struggled with that for a couple years 00:40:01.189 --> 00:40:03.929 in different forms in different ways it's come out in different ways and 00:40:03.929 --> 00:40:06.949 so to be back in a place where it was like hey let's just have fun you know 00:40:06.949 --> 00:40:09.829 let's let's go do community recovery activities and have 00:40:09.829 --> 00:40:13.489 fun that was my request right when we started talking about this 00:40:13.489 --> 00:40:16.689 and we have you know what i mean like you and i've had fun conversations 00:40:16.689 --> 00:40:19.409 we're starting to get things going let's stop talking about it let's 00:40:19.409 --> 00:40:22.409 start doing it well hey there's a football game let's do that right like 00:40:22.409 --> 00:40:25.209 um that was fun you know what i mean and now seeing other people 00:40:25.209 --> 00:40:27.909 start to take that on and like and then being here this is 00:40:27.909 --> 00:40:30.789 something i've wanted for a while you know and and i love talking 00:40:30.789 --> 00:40:33.629 i love getting my message out and i knew in different ways too so 00:40:33.629 --> 00:40:36.709 thank you for that but that's how that felt right that's how synchronicity feels 00:40:36.709 --> 00:40:39.569 to me as it feels light when you start following it 00:40:39.569 --> 00:40:42.529 right like yeah and like the less I 00:40:42.529 --> 00:40:45.189 believe in synchronicity or the less weird I want 00:40:45.189 --> 00:40:48.009 to get with it that's when the self-doubt creeps in and the 00:40:48.009 --> 00:40:51.909 less fun I have like self-doubt is 00:40:51.909 --> 00:40:58.789 I'm sorry but I I like like what you're saying just like spiritual beings and 00:40:58.789 --> 00:41:03.349 like you've made it through prison you've built a recovery center out of like 00:41:03.349 --> 00:41:08.369 your experience right your full-on experience whether what whatever it was like 00:41:08.369 --> 00:41:11.429 I I don't want to believe that I wasn't like put. 00:41:11.944 --> 00:41:15.644 In front of every single person, even sometimes like the cashier, 00:41:15.784 --> 00:41:17.764 the checker at the grocery store. 00:41:17.964 --> 00:41:21.284 I'm like, there's a reason for this. I don't know what it is, you know? 00:41:21.504 --> 00:41:26.164 And so that's like what takes me out of myself because I know I'm full of it. 00:41:26.324 --> 00:41:28.924 Like I'm full of like this madness. 00:41:29.244 --> 00:41:32.884 And so the only thing that's going to take me out of it is you, 00:41:33.164 --> 00:41:37.624 you guys, something else, somebody else's story, which is therefore going to 00:41:37.624 --> 00:41:41.664 help me survive a situation like prison, like addiction. 00:41:42.244 --> 00:41:46.024 Like whatever, because I have to grow more and more curious because inside my 00:41:46.024 --> 00:41:49.744 head is hell because I also know that I'm like kind of psychic, 00:41:49.744 --> 00:41:54.064 you know, like I'm also full of it or else I will die. 00:41:54.344 --> 00:41:59.024 I will die if I don't believe in synchronicity and then also start doing like 00:41:59.024 --> 00:42:00.064 the self-doubt bullshit. 00:42:00.604 --> 00:42:05.624 So I will die when you stop believing in synchronicity. Oh, 100 percent. 00:42:06.224 --> 00:42:11.324 Sarah is my one of my funnest people when synchronicities are happening, 00:42:11.324 -->

00:42:17.284 because that is like, OK, so if we go to that, you know, this idea of like having fun. 00:42:17.504 --> 00:42:22.024 And the phrase that I'm using recently is I'm just going to let myself go balls 00:42:22.024 --> 00:42:25.024 to the wall, fascinated with what I'm fascinated with. 00:42:25.844 --> 00:42:31.684 And Sarah is one of my best co-signers with like, OK, Sarah, 00:42:31.804 --> 00:42:34.104 this is what's coming in. These are the synchronicities. 00:42:34.304 --> 00:42:39.884 She's my favorite person to talk to about it. I do believe that that energy 00:42:39.884 --> 00:42:44.004 generates and builds because I just noticed that 00:42:44.389 --> 00:42:49.869 If I give myself license to have that level of fun, it's basically working a 00:42:49.869 --> 00:42:55.509 third step where I am creating a God of my understanding. 00:42:55.789 --> 00:43:00.089 The more I allow myself to feel this joy, this fascination, this bliss, 00:43:00.329 --> 00:43:01.809 the more I'm creating God. 00:43:02.409 --> 00:43:06.249 And the more I create God, the more God and I start world building. 00:43:06.729 --> 00:43:11.969 And so, fuck, I need a buddy for that. And so when my buddy is like trafficking 00:43:11.969 --> 00:43:13.949 in self-doubt, it's such a bummer. 00:43:14.389 --> 00:43:18.709 I'm so sorry. It's such a bummer. How dare you strap up yourself down. Jeez. 00:43:19.089 --> 00:43:22.969 But like, think about it. Like, you know, I used to dream about people even 00:43:22.969 --> 00:43:25.569 as a kid and then they would reach out to me the next day. 00:43:25.769 --> 00:43:29.749 Right. And then I'd be like, just consumed by the word coincidence. 00:43:29.809 --> 00:43:33.409 And I'm like, I guess it's a coincidence. And I'm just going to go drink myself 00:43:33.409 --> 00:43:39.269 into this coincidence hell, you know, because like I got to give myself a little 00:43:39.269 --> 00:43:40.809 more credit for that, you know. 00:43:41.029 --> 00:43:44.209 And my friends would just be like, that's just weird and a coincidence. 00:43:44.389 --> 00:43:50.129 Whatever. Well, it continues to happen. And now when we like allow it and we 00:43:50.129 --> 00:43:52.209 just let it flow, we're like, yeah. 00:43:52.752 --> 00:43:57.612 Too easy. What else? Like it just continues to happen. I love that. 00:43:57.612 --> 00:43:59.372 You almost get high off it and you start walking. 00:43:59.832 --> 00:44:03.332 100%. It starts becoming its own snowball effect and you start seeing it here 00:44:03.332 --> 00:44:04.172 and here and here and here. 00:44:04.272 --> 00:44:07.412 I've had multiple times in my life where you come out of the sludge and into 00:44:07.412 --> 00:44:09.852 the snowball and you're just like rolling downhill and you're like, 00:44:09.972 --> 00:44:11.732 yeah, oh, like you said, too easy. 00:44:12.012 --> 00:44:15.312 Where's this coming from? And I have a hard time and I can't remember if it's 00:44:15.312 --> 00:44:18.212 maybe

because in Celestine, I'll have to go back and look at that language and 00:44:18.212 --> 00:44:20.852 be like, did they call it coincidence or synchronicity. 00:44:20.992 --> 00:44:22.772 To me, like they're synonymous. 00:44:23.032 --> 00:44:27.852 So when people say coincidence, I can't even at this point and for a long time 00:44:27.852 --> 00:44:35.872 now, I can't even attach to the word coincidence as like a secular mundane thing. It's magical. 00:44:36.412 --> 00:44:40.052 Coincidence. Coincidence is magical. It's the same thing as synchronicity to 00:44:40.052 --> 00:44:41.432 me. There's no difference. 00:44:41.652 --> 00:44:44.532 And I can't even like compute the difference, but other people do. 00:44:44.812 --> 00:44:48.752 Right. Because that's in our language. I was going to say, like in the 3D realm, 00:44:48.892 --> 00:44:53.532 coincidence is the word for saying like it is anything but energy and God. 00:44:53.892 --> 00:44:58.392 Right. And I forget that until I encounter it again. 00:44:58.532 --> 00:45:00.512 And then I'm like, oh, yeah, we're talking the same language. 00:45:00.632 --> 00:45:01.992 And they're like, no, it's just a coincidence. 00:45:02.552 --> 00:45:05.272 There isn't just a coincidence. It's God. Right. Like, yeah, 00:45:05.412 --> 00:45:08.492 it is the, you know, the divine speaking to you, I believe. 00:45:09.032 --> 00:45:12.092 And, you know, this is a whole rabbit hole, but I don't think there is a separation 00:45:12.092 --> 00:45:15.472 between God and us. Right. We all are like we are the God is the ocean. 00:45:15.592 --> 00:45:16.832 We are the waves. I say that a lot. 00:45:17.012 --> 00:45:20.872 And so, yeah, of course we're creating magic around us as we go through this world. 00:45:21.112 --> 00:45:24.592 You know, we're also creating our misery, right? And then we're creating our love. 00:45:24.712 --> 00:45:27.912 Like it's, and we're all, it's all a mirror so we can look and grow and help 00:45:27.912 --> 00:45:30.672 each other because we're God speaking to God. That's how I look at it. 00:45:31.052 --> 00:45:34.352 And that's challenging for some people, right? But I do think that that is, 00:45:34.472 --> 00:45:37.432 there's a lot of playfulness in that, you know, there's a lot of opportunity in that. 00:45:37.512 --> 00:45:40.012 And there's a lot of responsibility there also, right? And accountability. 00:45:40.352 --> 00:45:43.992 If that's true, then how did we create this fucked up political landscape we're 00:45:43.992 --> 00:45:48.492 existing in, And this really messed up world where we hurt each other very badly 00:45:48.492 --> 00:45:50.432 in the name of what, you know, so... 00:45:50.889 --> 00:45:54.749 But I do believe that the synchronicity, the coincidence, that all those things 00:45:54.749 --> 00:45:57.649 are it's God speaking to us or ourselves. 00:45:58.089 --> 00:46:00.769 Connectedness. Yeah, connected. It's just connectedness. Thank you. I like that. 00:46:00.989 --> 00:46:05.529 But I also want to back it up to like where the too easy comment, like, sure, too easy. 00:46:05.729 --> 00:46:09.729 But I think when I was first discovering this of like, oh, this is actually 00:46:09.729 --> 00:46:13.909 like a fun realm I can experience, you know, experience my sobriety, 00:46:14.049 --> 00:46:15.429 my intuition, whatever. 00:46:16.369 --> 00:46:20.169 Because then there's also a slippery slope of mania and psychosis. 00:46:20.469 --> 00:46:26.209 Yeah. And so I'm at this point, too, where I'm like, OK, too easy. I see you. Thank you. 00:46:26.637 --> 00:46:32.977 Instead of like, told you so, the plane with all the ice skaters was going to blow up. 00:46:33.017 --> 00:46:40.177 I was dreaming about fire and ice yesterday, you know, like I can't do that, 00:46:40.377 --> 00:46:41.577 you know, I can't go there. 00:46:41.737 --> 00:46:46.097 I think it's about sustainability, right? And so I think when you first blow 00:46:46.097 --> 00:46:50.157 that door open, it does come too easy sometimes because it's trying to show 00:46:50.157 --> 00:46:53.997 you, hey, this is what you can do, you know, and then you can create life like 00:46:53.997 --> 00:46:56.057 this, right? Like it can be this easy. 00:46:56.297 --> 00:46:59.177 It can have this much freedom. It can feel this light. 00:46:59.477 --> 00:47:05.977 And then, but then you almost get entitled to that or you get dependent on that or you think that, yeah. 00:47:06.257 --> 00:47:10.457 And then, and then life is like, okay, hey, you can do that, 00:47:10.457 --> 00:47:13.137 but you also have to be sustainable with it. 00:47:13.217 --> 00:47:15.817 And I'm going to show you that by taking this from you now, right? 00:47:15.877 --> 00:47:16.897 Like you're going to give it all out. 00:47:17.017 --> 00:47:20.177 You're going to give it all up. And just like anything, it ebbs and it flows, 00:47:20.317 --> 00:47:23.757 right? We go through waves, we go around the medicine wheel and we come back 00:47:23.757 --> 00:47:27.757 to those same lessons or whatever analogy you want to learn from that. 00:47:28.037 --> 00:47:32.417 So it becomes like, how do I, yeah, too easy. Hey, thank you. 00:47:32.657 --> 00:47:35.277 You know, how do I live in reverence? How do I live in gratitude? 00:47:35.537 --> 00:47:40.597 How do I live in acknowledgement, recognition? And then also say thank you and 00:47:40.597 --> 00:47:45.097 this awareness that that doesn't mean that this 3D, that this path that we're 00:47:45.097 --> 00:47:46.997 on isn't difficult still, right? 00:47:46.997 --> 00:47:51.417 Because that's where you get trapped into that, like the denial of mania, basically. 00:47:51.577 --> 00:47:55.077 So I like that. I appreciate that reminder there that you just brought in there. 00:47:55.177 --> 00:47:57.257 Like, hey, that's also how psychosis looks. 00:47:57.577 --> 00:48:00.777 Right? Like, that's also how mania looks. I love what both of you are

saying. 00:48:01.297 --> 00:48:05.137 This is actually really helpful because I'm going through this period right 00:48:05.137 --> 00:48:11.977 now where I can tell that I have been sort of spiritually living off the fat of the land. 00:48:12.757 --> 00:48:19.577 So there's been a lot of, I've had a lot of spiritual growth, I would say, and then, 00:48:19.837 --> 00:48:25.357 and I've had a lot of, I feel like my higher power is, there's a lot of answered 00:48:25.357 --> 00:48:28.777 prayers and helpers coming in, and that feels so good. 00:48:30.409 --> 00:48:35.389 What I have been told, and I find this to be true every single time, 00:48:35.689 --> 00:48:42.289 is the most dangerous period of time after a spiritual awakening is immediately 00:48:42.289 --> 00:48:48.049 afterwards because you haven't done the ego leveling yet. 00:48:48.209 --> 00:48:53.669 So your ego creates an identity out of this new position that you're in. 00:48:54.569 --> 00:49:01.689 And so prepare thyself because that's going to get leveled. and that's what I'm in right now. 00:49:02.129 --> 00:49:08.569 What I will say is the leveling that I am going through like this week is nothing 00:49:08.569 --> 00:49:11.729 compared to what it used to look like years ago. 00:49:11.989 --> 00:49:16.849 You know, it's like I had to make a couple of amends because I was speaking 00:49:16.849 --> 00:49:23.689 like an authority on shit that I had no, no, no, there was no reason I should 00:49:23.689 --> 00:49:26.289 have been speaking in the manner that I was speaking. 00:49:26.469 --> 00:49:30.529 Like I knew what I was talking about without the kindness and compassion that 00:49:30.529 --> 00:49:32.049 I usually like to bring forward. 00:49:33.049 --> 00:49:35.309 And I was... 00:49:35.810 --> 00:49:41.970 In self-will to a certain degree. But I mean, that's all part of it. 00:49:42.070 --> 00:49:46.690 And it's so wonderful to be able to recognize where you are on that wheel, 00:49:46.910 --> 00:49:48.350 like that you were talking about that wheel. 00:49:48.530 --> 00:49:54.970 And yeah, so right now, this morning was like the first time where I could understand where I was. 00:49:55.070 --> 00:49:58.010 And I'm like, oh, I'm like in it and I got to trim some fat. 00:49:58.170 --> 00:50:02.470 It's like fat trimming time, you know, so willing and happy to do it. 00:50:02.590 --> 00:50:08.830 And that means that I'm just going to open up, like just open up the heart a 00:50:08.830 --> 00:50:13.910 little bit more, including to myself and just wait for good orderly direction. 00:50:14.230 --> 00:50:15.530 I know how to do this, you know. 00:50:16.090 --> 00:50:19.350 Okay. Something that I'm thinking about both of you, Sarah and Steven, 00:50:19.670 --> 00:50:24.870 is I would say both of you, I would use the term visionary for both of you. 00:50:25.050 --> 00:50:26.730 I see both of you as visionaries. 00:50:27.270 --> 00:50:33.270 So my experience of like meeting both of you and

talking to both of you is there is this. 00:50:34.001 --> 00:50:40.081 It's kind of an intoxicating feeling for me because there is this, 00:50:40.381 --> 00:50:47.621 you both have this range where you can see the kind of long-term philosophical 00:50:47.621 --> 00:50:50.141 arc of whatever it is we're talking about. 00:50:50.301 --> 00:50:54.041 Whether it's like Missoula's recovery, whether it's like, you know, 00:50:54.241 --> 00:50:59.361 your kid's like five-year-old, you know, drawing with a rainbow and a ghost 00:50:59.361 --> 00:51:02.161 on it, whatever it is, it's super intoxicating. 00:51:02.321 --> 00:51:06.221 Intoxicating, but, and, you know, I'd love to hear from both of you, 00:51:06.341 --> 00:51:10.961 but as like a visionary, do you think that that is, is the room, 00:51:11.101 --> 00:51:13.461 are the rooms filled with visionaries, basically? 00:51:13.461 --> 00:51:17.501 Is that part of everything that we're talking about, which is like maybe heightened 00:51:17.501 --> 00:51:27.261 spirituality, a, you know, like a sort of preternatural, like closeness to psychosis, whatever it is. 00:51:27.261 --> 00:51:30.641 It makes me think of visionaries and executioners 00:51:30.641 --> 00:51:33.861 and and we're not all supposed to be visionaries you 00:51:33.861 --> 00:51:38.081 know i would agree yeah and so but 00:51:38.081 --> 00:51:42.661 executioners are the ones that help me be a visionary and i heard it because 00:51:42.661 --> 00:51:48.861 i have a cousin who is not in addiction or has any trouble with that and she's 00:51:48.861 --> 00:51:55.841 a total executioner like she totally is and she was like hello hello like Earth to Sarah. 00:51:56.321 --> 00:52:00.261 You know, like wanting to hear things that I was talking about. 00:52:00.341 --> 00:52:05.021 And I'm like, how could she ever want to know what I have to talk about? 00:52:05.101 --> 00:52:08.181 Like, she obviously has life figured out, right? 00:52:08.301 --> 00:52:11.761 Which is like, so I hate those words even just figure it out, figure it out. 00:52:12.901 --> 00:52:17.901 Because she does have like the job of her dreams, the house of her dreams, the life of her dreams. 00:52:18.241 --> 00:52:22.141 And I'm remembering you, she said to you, whatever you want, 00:52:22.321 --> 00:52:26.061 just ask for it. And that was so, So she's the executioner? 00:52:26.601 --> 00:52:31.361 Okay. And I just was like, what? Now that we threw her under the bus. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:52:31.921 --> 00:52:35.201 I'm like, whatever I want, you know? 00:52:35.321 --> 00:52:39.801 And then that for someone who just has like the wide array of like, 00:52:40.401 --> 00:52:43.141 yeah, do you want to talk about the Minnesota Vikings or do you want to talk 00:52:43.141 --> 00:52:46.001 about the stock market? Like, just like whatever it is. 00:52:46.241 --> 00:52:50.461 20 seconds from now. Yeah, we can deep dive something different. Yeah. 00:52:52.121 --> 00:52:53.721 Whatever it is, but, 00:52:54.679 --> 00:53:04.139 think with me, what can be so debilitating is like not feeling like I have permission, 00:53:04.679 --> 00:53:11.659 and like, like there's a set of rules that I have to follow and that all pieces of me are only, 00:53:12.479 --> 00:53:16.999 allowed or accepted by certain people, which I don't, I don't know. 00:53:17.119 --> 00:53:20.599 I don't know if any of this, what I'm, what I'm really getting at with like 00:53:20.599 --> 00:53:24.939 how just bringing up time, I'm, I'm like thinking I'm asking you, 00:53:25.059 --> 00:53:31.959 like, what is it that was like the very first memory of like yourself as a kid? 00:53:32.559 --> 00:53:37.059 You know, and like how did that sort of like pave the way through every bit 00:53:37.059 --> 00:53:40.319 of everything you ever did? You know, like, I don't know. 00:53:41.359 --> 00:53:47.359 I, when my grandparents died, I found a box of notes that I had written them. 00:53:47.699 --> 00:53:52.819 I was like six, six, seven, and I would fill out the envelope and put a stamp on it. 00:53:52.939 --> 00:53:56.199 And I loved riding my bike to the post office. 00:53:56.459 --> 00:53:58.679 And just like, I was just really weird, whatever. 00:53:59.499 --> 00:54:03.839 But I would read those letters and I knew everything that each family member 00:54:03.839 --> 00:54:07.759 was doing. And then I would just talk to my grandparents about how much I loved them. 00:54:08.159 --> 00:54:13.179 And like, that's all. I just wanted to make sure that I knew what everyone was 00:54:13.179 --> 00:54:15.979 doing and that everyone knew that I loved them, you know. 00:54:16.419 --> 00:54:21.239 And then like, and that's kind of how I was when I drank, you know. 00:54:21.379 --> 00:54:27.899 And That's kind of how I am, like, in my professional life and in my friendships, like, all that stuff. 00:54:28.179 --> 00:54:32.299 So, like, does any of that kind of, like, resonate? Yeah. I don't know. 00:54:32.975 --> 00:54:38.835 Well, the love, the love part too, like I, I do feel like that description of, 00:54:39.015 --> 00:54:42.995 of like needing people to know that they are loved. 00:54:43.335 --> 00:54:49.555 I wonder, I almost feel like that is what instigates this need to be a visionary 00:54:49.555 --> 00:54:54.295 because at the end of the day, there's like this kind of shepherding quality, 00:54:54.655 --> 00:54:57.935 like trying to funnel people towards like a safe situation. 00:54:57.935 --> 00:55:00.835 In order to to be able to do that you 00:55:00.835 --> 00:55:04.115 need to know every single thing about the situation 00:55:04.115 --> 00:55:08.315 about the conditions that are creating that you need to know the philosophical 00:55:08.315 --> 00:55:15.655 arcs and like all of the because you're ultimately it's about control like you're 00:55:15.655 --> 00:55:21.575 trying to anticipate and navigate and then ultimately control so that people 00:55:21.575 --> 00:55:23.835

arrive safely at the end of it all. 00:55:24.815 --> 00:55:29.415 Or that you could say something that's so powerful that they would have a psychic 00:55:29.415 --> 00:55:35.095 change and they would change their behavior and become safe unto themselves. I mean. 00:55:35.535 --> 00:55:40.735 You wish. But there's something about spiritual awakening that you. 00:55:41.662 --> 00:55:44.842 When done safely, correctly. 00:55:45.062 --> 00:55:49.482 I don't know. Is there any safety in spiritual awakenings? I think they are 00:55:49.482 --> 00:55:52.242 turbulent by design. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, turbulent. 00:55:52.502 --> 00:55:57.222 The slow ones. I think the slow ones are. But what it did to me was humbled 00:55:57.222 --> 00:56:01.622 me in the way that I couldn't control people anymore. I couldn't control anything. 00:56:01.682 --> 00:56:04.702 So then you're like, just tell me everything. Yeah. 00:56:05.042 --> 00:56:09.862 So that's what I mean is like, sure, that sounds like wanting to get control, 00:56:10.062 --> 00:56:11.442 but having a spiritual awakening. 00:56:12.202 --> 00:56:15.222 You are completely humbled and curious you 00:56:15.222 --> 00:56:17.982 become humbled and curious you do become humbled and 00:56:17.982 --> 00:56:21.002 curious and i do think even i think though giving up 00:56:21.002 --> 00:56:23.822 control is almost a form of like trying to grab 00:56:23.822 --> 00:56:28.762 control you know i think we're like rest yeah i get that and so at sometimes 00:56:28.762 --> 00:56:32.682 you know and and so even sometimes like leaning into spirit or leaning into 00:56:32.682 --> 00:56:36.942 faith or letting go whether it's prayer at sweat lodge or whether it's whatever 00:56:36.942 --> 00:56:40.082 that looks like you know you're still then also So trying like that prayer is, 00:56:40.302 --> 00:56:41.842 I'm going to pray, I'm going to let it go, 00:56:42.082 --> 00:56:44.242 but I'm trying to like, but what are you praying for? 00:56:44.342 --> 00:56:46.762 You're praying for love and goodness for the people around you, right? 00:56:47.182 --> 00:56:50.122 You're praying for the addict that's still out there suffering, 00:56:50.382 --> 00:56:53.222 right? You're praying for this world that is living in turbulence with leaders 00:56:53.222 --> 00:56:54.862 that don't know what the fuck they're doing, right? 00:56:55.282 --> 00:56:58.202 And that you're trying to control, right? Because you're like praying for those 00:56:58.202 --> 00:57:01.042 things, you know? And so, and to me, that's letting go at the same time, 00:57:01.142 --> 00:57:02.082 right? So you're letting go of control. 00:57:02.222 --> 00:57:05.502 But so it's interesting. I love that duality. There isn't something like simple 00:57:05.502 --> 00:57:08.782 in that venture. I also don't think that everybody is visionary. 00:57:09.042 --> 00:57:11.122 I don't think everybody's supposed to be visionary. Necessarily visionary, 00:57:11.122 --> 00:57:13.922

I think, in the terms that you mean it, and maybe it'd be, you know, 00:57:13.942 --> 00:57:16.642 at some point, it'd be interesting to explore what that means. 00:57:16.609 --> 00:57:20.429 What that means to each of us. But I think that a lot of addicts and I've, 00:57:20.609 --> 00:57:24.069 at this point, we've worked through crosswinds with a lot of people, right. 00:57:24.109 --> 00:57:26.329 And I've had a lot of friends, whatever, but some people like, 00:57:26.589 --> 00:57:29.929 they just want to survive, right. They just don't want to hurt anymore. 00:57:30.029 --> 00:57:31.489 They don't want to have to go create anything. 00:57:31.829 --> 00:57:34.329 They just want to be able to feed their family. They just want to be able to 00:57:34.329 --> 00:57:37.149 not use. They just want to be able to have like the simple, I used to ask that 00:57:37.149 --> 00:57:38.809 miracle question and inpatient treatment. 00:57:38.949 --> 00:57:41.409 It was like, what is the, you know, six months from now, if you were sitting 00:57:41.409 --> 00:57:45.689 in the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, the best situation that you could possibly imagine. 00:57:46.069 --> 00:57:49.749 Most of them would be like, I want my kids back. I want a house. I want food on the table. 00:57:49.929 --> 00:57:52.869 I want, it was so simple. And I used to, I didn't know that when I was going 00:57:52.869 --> 00:57:55.629 to, when I was asking that question at first and then time after time, 00:57:55.829 --> 00:57:58.129 after time, like 90% of the answers, none of them were like, 00:57:58.229 --> 00:58:02.029 I'm driving around in a Ferrari with, you know, four women and blah, 00:58:02.089 --> 00:58:02.929 blah, you know, whatever it is. 00:58:02.989 --> 00:58:05.669 Like I'm, I'm a head of a fortune 500 company. 00:58:05.809 --> 00:58:08.789 I'm the, it wasn't like grandiose, so simple. 00:58:09.129 --> 00:58:11.889 That was really humbling. and that was so beautiful and 00:58:11.889 --> 00:58:14.949 so i started like knowing that and so i would ask that question and 00:58:14.949 --> 00:58:18.109 then i would reflect for everybody how simple does all that seem right 00:58:18.109 --> 00:58:22.709 and then there's also like the difference between like vision and being able 00:58:22.709 --> 00:58:27.149 to like bring that down into the 3d you know like i have to stay up here a lot 00:58:27.149 --> 00:58:31.069 of times and my you know luckily i've had well we have 18 staff working for 00:58:31.069 --> 00:58:34.529 us now at crosswinds and i'm thankful for each one of those because a lot of 00:58:34.529 --> 00:58:36.909 those they don't see what I see necessarily. 00:58:36.949 --> 00:58:42.409 They see it as, as I, like, as I can speak it into being, I'm their conduit to the idea. 00:58:42.629 --> 00:58:45.329 They're my conduit to making it fucking real. Right. 00:58:45.729 --> 00:58:49.569 And together, together we can like that, but left to my own, 00:58:49.729 --> 00:58:52.049 I'd just be sitting here, like sitting in a room with Sarah being like, 00:58:52.149 --> 00:58:53.389 Oh, you know, it'd be so cool. 00:58:53.869 --> 00:58:57.149 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, Oh, cause I can see a whole lot of stuff. 00:58:57.149 --> 00:59:00.289 Like, you know, when you say, Hey, cause you know, just go do it or man, 00:59:00.369 --> 00:59:02.129 whatever you wish for, I can't remember 00:59:02.129 --> 00:59:05.949 what the exact line was that your executioner shared but it's like, 00:59:06.419 --> 00:59:09.359 like man i could do some cool stuff with that power 00:59:09.359 --> 00:59:12.439 and technically i i do believe that we're all of creator and 00:59:12.439 --> 00:59:15.399 so like yeah that's what we're doing but i don't have full control 00:59:15.399 --> 00:59:18.239 over that ability to like divine the 00:59:18.239 --> 00:59:23.299 future or or manifest yet right but i manifested the podcast time you know so 00:59:23.299 --> 00:59:27.879 there we go we synced up there but but i'm glad to some extent because i don't 00:59:27.879 --> 00:59:31.179 have full control over like there's some stuff that i would manifest that you 00:59:31.179 --> 00:59:35.679 know that i can envision that It doesn't deserve to be on this earth kind of thing, you know. Yeah. 00:59:35.919 --> 00:59:39.699 And for me, I don't know, you know, I've lived my whole life in fantasy, right? 00:59:39.759 --> 00:59:42.819 Like I was saying, you know, I've always, I was a voracious reader, 00:59:43.099 --> 00:59:44.999 still am to some extent. I'm always consuming something. 00:59:45.199 --> 00:59:48.359 But a lot of that ends up being like fantastical worlds, whether it's Tolkien 00:59:48.359 --> 00:59:51.099 or whether it's Robert Jordan, Wheel of Time, Game of Thrones. 00:59:51.239 --> 00:59:53.299 Like I love kind of delving into those realms. 00:59:53.519 --> 00:59:56.559 And there's just like a little bit of like magic. There's a little bit of, 00:59:56.719 --> 00:59:59.759 you know, but there's rules and there's honor and there's these things, 00:59:59.999 --> 01:00:02.559 you know, these values that exist in those places. 01:00:03.519 --> 01:00:07.579 And I do believe that we're all walking a version of the hero's journey, 01:00:07.939 --> 01:00:11.279 you know, uncovering ourselves and uncovering the world and God in the process. And so. 01:00:11.999 --> 01:00:16.179 Yeah. And I don't want that to be true. And I definitely went through a period 01:00:16.179 --> 01:00:19.599 of time where I categorically rejected that. What? 01:00:20.199 --> 01:00:22.259 That we're on the hero's journey? That we're doing the hero's journey. 01:00:22.399 --> 01:00:23.659 Yeah. You know what? It's true. 01:00:23.879 --> 01:00:27.299 We are. What are you afraid of on the hero's journey? Because I was worried 01:00:27.299 --> 01:00:29.519 that I was participating in a male perspective. 01:00:29.739 --> 01:00:34.359 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that there

was like fundamental pieces of me that would be missing. 01:00:34.579 --> 01:00:37.899 Like my feminineness would be missing. You're supposed to bring that to the 01:00:37.899 --> 01:00:39.259 world. That's the part of the journey. 01:00:39.519 --> 01:00:44.179 I do. I do. And I am having that experience and I can like call that now. 01:00:45.174 --> 01:00:49.154 But something, you know, back to this, like the simultaneously wish, 01:00:49.374 --> 01:00:54.014 the simultaneous wish for the podcast makes me think about when the camera was 01:00:54.014 --> 01:00:57.274 invented. And I can't remember what year it was, but it was in the late 1800s. 01:00:58.234 --> 01:01:05.534 Three people in different areas in the globe invented the camera essentially at the same time. 01:01:06.394 --> 01:01:10.214 And I do, you know, back to this idea that we're all connected. 01:01:10.214 --> 01:01:12.994 We I it is my experience that 01:01:12.994 --> 01:01:16.114 we're all connected and that when an 01:01:16.114 --> 01:01:19.294 idea wants to be made material 01:01:19.294 --> 01:01:26.154 like if you're up for it you'll get the memo you know and and it's my thought 01:01:26.154 --> 01:01:30.654 with like so something that the 40 club is talking about with crosswinds and 01:01:30.654 --> 01:01:36.674 some other non-profits is this idea of like having a recovery community center. 01:01:37.174 --> 01:01:41.894 And part of me wonders, the first conversation that I ever had with Steven, 01:01:41.894 --> 01:01:44.034 and he was describing it, 01:01:44.134 --> 01:01:49.994 and he was describing something that I could already feel like I had been thinking 01:01:49.994 --> 01:01:52.534 about and I was already feeling into. 01:01:52.814 --> 01:01:58.594 And so is the description an idea or are we just like receiving, 01:01:58.594 --> 01:02:04.094 you know, this kind of information in the same way that these disparate, 01:02:04.214 --> 01:02:05.674 seemingly disparate characters. 01:02:06.374 --> 01:02:10.274 Around the globe were getting the information. Okay, it's time to build this camera. 01:02:10.534 --> 01:02:12.914 You know what I mean? And I feel like, 01:02:13.432 --> 01:02:21.112 What I am trying to learn how to do in time is to just be open and stay curious 01:02:21.112 --> 01:02:26.032 and just ask a lot of questions like, hey, do you want to build this recovery community center? 01:02:26.252 --> 01:02:28.512 Hey, do you want to help build this recovery community center? 01:02:28.792 --> 01:02:35.312 And that's like my only job. That's my only understanding of how to manifest anything. I don't know. 01:02:35.512 --> 01:02:41.692 Do you feel like that's your experience or do you feel like you've had opportunities where yourself, 01:02:41.872 --> 01:02:46.812 Will, got to create it and then you had to take the time to disassemble that 01:02:46.812 --> 01:02:51.732 ego that happened with that situation? I would probably just say yes. 01:02:53.452 --> 01:02:57.872

Dawn Payne, when we're in Lodge, a lot of times, Native American Sweat Lodge, right? 01:02:57.992 --> 01:03:01.832 She'll say, the song sings the singer, the drum drums the drummer, right? 01:03:02.292 --> 01:03:07.212 And as you're talking, I'm thinking, and I'll say, the dream dreams the dreamer, right? 01:03:08.625 --> 01:03:13.985 Yeah. And particularly with the recovery community center with that idea. 01:03:14.185 --> 01:03:17.305 I mean, when, if you go back to our first, to Crosswinds first, 01:03:17.485 --> 01:03:21.065 like five-year plan, this is probably back in 2016, 2017, it was myself, 01:03:21.325 --> 01:03:25.645 Peter Janaya, sitting at a table at Cafe Dolce and we're coming up with what do we want to do? 01:03:25.805 --> 01:03:29.325 You know, and I'd always seen this idea of, and it being a Crosswinds thing, 01:03:29.445 --> 01:03:32.145 big Crosswinds logo, you know, like, cause that's what we do in America. 01:03:32.305 --> 01:03:36.165 We brand shit, right? Like, and I saw like the City Life building. 01:03:36.165 --> 01:03:39.265 I wanted the city life building and I wanted this place that had, 01:03:39.445 --> 01:03:41.665 you know, you could work out, you could, you could shoot hoops, 01:03:41.745 --> 01:03:46.205 you could have a library and a computer lab. And then there was outpatient upstairs 01:03:46.205 --> 01:03:48.305 and maybe an inpatient and also groups. 01:03:48.325 --> 01:03:50.385 And like, so I kind of, I saw it then. 01:03:50.585 --> 01:03:52.585 Right. And that was years and years and years ago. 01:03:53.125 --> 01:03:56.485 And then Peter and I had the opportunity in Maine to walk through some of these 01:03:56.485 --> 01:03:59.485 RCCs over there. They have like 16 in Maine alone. They're all living down the 01:03:59.485 --> 01:04:00.485 East coast and they already exist. 01:04:00.605 --> 01:04:03.245 They're living, breathing, you know, they have their own presence. 01:04:04.825 --> 01:04:07.625 And I still thought of it through like, how does crosswinds do this? 01:04:08.065 --> 01:04:10.305 And then I met with Dawn and we were talking about it. 01:04:10.365 --> 01:04:13.805 She was excited about it. And I realized I started talking, there's a point 01:04:13.805 --> 01:04:16.205 to this, but I started talking to Peter in terms of... 01:04:17.258 --> 01:04:20.098 What the RCC wants. It's not what Crosswinds wants. 01:04:20.378 --> 01:04:24.078 It's not what I want, right? It's not what I'm dreaming. Like the RCC was its 01:04:24.078 --> 01:04:27.158 own thing and it was speaking its life into existence. 01:04:27.318 --> 01:04:30.578 And that's where I, that's where originally I started exploring the idea of 01:04:30.578 --> 01:04:34.738 let's make this a collaborative, you know, with, you know, maybe even 10, 01:04:34.898 --> 01:04:39.278 14 different recovery programs, all in one square city block in this big building. 01:04:39.278 --> 01:04:42.078 Like I want that, you know, it wants that, right? 01:04:42.158 --> 01:04:45.338 It wants us all to be holding hands in relationship and community because that's 01:04:45.338 --> 01:04:48.878 what community is. It's the only way that you get something that has meeting 01:04:48.878 --> 01:04:53.458 space, that has addiction medicine, that has trauma-informed daycare, 01:04:53.598 --> 01:04:55.318 that has outpatient therapy. 01:04:55.518 --> 01:05:01.598 We're all sitting here breaking ourselves, trying to eke out of the muck of 01:05:01.598 --> 01:05:06.778 addiction and recovery and business and society and our own little ventures. 01:05:07.158 --> 01:05:10.958 And then how do we bring them all together? Because I can't think of all the 01:05:10.958 --> 01:05:13.458 things that we need to do. I wouldn't know the details of all that. Right. 01:05:13.538 --> 01:05:16.658 And so I don't know if that answers your question, but it does have its own life. 01:05:16.858 --> 01:05:18.978 Right. And so that's better to me. 01:05:19.238 --> 01:05:22.878 And I start and it took my ego out of it because what do I want? I want it to be mine. 01:05:23.118 --> 01:05:25.798 You know what I mean? I want to brand it and I want Stephen Ferguson attached 01:05:25.798 --> 01:05:28.318 to it. And but what does it want? 01:05:29.078 --> 01:05:33.118 Yeah, because if I and so that's allowed us to then I mean, that path has been 01:05:33.118 --> 01:05:35.138 weird. It's been weird even since you've been on board. Right. 01:05:35.278 --> 01:05:36.798 Like you've got to ask it what it wants. 01:05:36.998 --> 01:05:40.338 Right. What do you want? You know, and if we just did that with curiosity and 01:05:40.338 --> 01:05:42.358 with love, we'd be a lot better place. 01:05:42.358 --> 01:05:45.118 Right like but you know not even what a couple months 01:05:45.118 --> 01:05:47.838 ago we were sitting at a different organization trying to give 01:05:47.838 --> 01:05:50.678 it life through there and then now we're talking about giving it life maybe 01:05:50.678 --> 01:05:53.318 through the fourth d club because i will you know that's what 01:05:53.318 --> 01:05:56.918 you guys are already doing anyway so let's just try to follow that whatever 01:05:56.918 --> 01:06:00.098 whatever gets it where it wants to go how do we how do we get there you know 01:06:00.098 --> 01:06:04.098 and so that's that's different and it's different to being visionary in a certain 01:06:04.098 --> 01:06:07.978 way just asking right like that's the i don't know if that's a more feminine 01:06:07.978 --> 01:06:11.658 part of it or if that's just the more loving part of it, that doesn't have to be feminine, right? 01:06:11.838 --> 01:06:16.038 I would say it seems like it's the highest form of visionary work. It's like... 01:06:16.763 --> 01:06:22.443 You know, it's a high form when a visionary is working at their best. 01:06:22.603 --> 01:06:27.503 My ego wants to create, right? My ego wants to be responsible for whatever I'm selling you. 01:06:28.063 --> 01:06:31.323 And it's a different thing to submit and to be like, hey, what do you want? 01:06:31.523 --> 01:06:33.543 Yeah, me too. And I'll fumble that. 01:06:33.783 --> 01:06:37.743 But if I just listen, I get better and better at it. And it feels better. 01:06:38.263 --> 01:06:41.683 Well, Stephen, thank you so much for joining us. 01:06:41.823 --> 01:06:46.683 We so appreciate you being here. we have been talking for like an hour and 15 01:06:46.683 --> 01:06:50.143 minutes so i figured it was good i think they close at six they close at six 01:06:50.143 --> 01:06:55.283 so we're outie we're out of here but this is such an i this conversation meandered 01:06:55.283 --> 01:06:57.763 in a direction that i was hoping it would so yeah cool.