النص الكامل لحلقة Can Conservative Values Drive Effective Climate Solutions? Exploring the American Carbon Price

Now, my first 76 00:03:22,044 --> 00:03:24,612 thought, which, uh, in hindsight was 77 00:03:24,716 --> 00:03:27,556 probably one of the sharpest thoughts I could have had, all things considered. 78 00:03:27,588 --> 00:03:30,196 I had literally just woken up, I was so tired 79 00:03:30,388 --> 00:03:32,880 and I was like, hm, I'm in media, 80 00:03:33,340 --> 00:03:35,400 Catholic media specifically. 81 00:03:36,060 --> 00:03:39,028 And I'm subscribed to like the wa, the New York Times. 82 00:03:39,084 --> 00:03:41,700 Anytime a president farts, I know about it three times 83 00:03:41,740 --> 00:03:44,602 over. And for whatever 84 00:03:44,666 --> 00:03:47,418 reason, I had zero notifications 85 00:03:47,514 --> 00:03:50,442 other than this person tagging me on Discord. So 86 00:03:50,466 --> 00:03:52,378 the first thing I googled at 87 00:03:52,434 --> 00:03:55,274 5:35 in the morning was Pope Francis 88 00:03:55,322 --> 00:03:58,170 dead hoax. Because I thought for sure it was like one of those, 89 00:03:58,210 --> 00:04:00,810 like, Facebook posts where it's like Morgan Freeman just died at 90 00:04:00,850 --> 00:04:03,626 69 years old or whatever. And so I was like, nah, 91 00:04:03,658 --> 00:04:06,522 he's just trolling me. This is like some boomer fodder right here. This 92 00:04:06,546 --> 00:04:09,402 is not true. And so I googled it and the first thing 93 00:04:09,426 --> 00:04:12,362 that popped up was the AP News article. And so then I googled 94 00:04:12,426 --> 00:04:15,050 AP News. Hacked. Like, my brain was like really 95 00:04:15,090 --> 00:04:17,926 running in circles trying to find a way to bring the Pope 96 00:04:17,958 --> 00:04:20,850 back to Life at 5:30 on Easter Monday. 97 00:04:21,390 --> 00:04:24,374 But, uh, alas, no, he was dead. I was just way ahead of the ball game. 98 00:04:24,462 --> 00:04:27,414 So, yeah, that's been a pretty hellish week now, 99 00:04:27,502 --> 00:04:30,250 just putting up with that. Well, I say it like, I'm, 100 00:04:30,250 --> 00:04:33,222 um, You know, I got my emergency letter summoning me to the 101 00:04:33,246 --> 00:04:36,102 Vatican now. It's just like, kind of stressful because you can tell that 102 00:04:36,126 --> 00:04:38,710 everybody who's Catholic right now is really apprehensive about, you 103 00:04:38,750 --> 00:04:41,622 know, what do the next few weeks look like? Who are 104 00:04:41,646 --> 00:04:44,422 they going to pick? Is who they're going to pick. For me in particular, my 105 00:04:44,446 --> 00:04:47,402 concern is, are they going to be as big of an environmentalist as Pope Francis? 106 00:04:47,446 --> 00:04:50,114 This was. Stay tuned in the next coming weeks. Free. 107 00:04:50,282 --> 00:04:53,218 Yeah, yeah, I know. As much as I want to have my hopes 108 00:04:53,234 --> 00:04:56,146 up. Unlikely. Stay tuned over the next couple of weeks for a 109 00:04:56,218 --> 00:04:59,106 Katie specific episode where I talk all about 110 00:04:59,178 --> 00:05:02,066 Pope,

uh, Francis, creation, care, legacy, and what that means for 111 00:05:02,138 --> 00:05:05,122 other religious communities, not just Catholics. But. Yeah. And 112 00:05:05,146 --> 00:05:08,114 I read a report this morning from one of the cardinals who was like, well, none of 113 00:05:08,122 --> 00:05:11,010 us really know each other, so it's probably going to be a pretty long conclave 114 00:05:11,090 --> 00:05:14,034 to elect the next pope. They're normally two to three weeks, but this one's probably going 115 00:05:14,042 --> 00:05:16,932 to be quite a bit longer. So I have no idea. I'm just on 116 00:05:16,956 --> 00:05:19,876 pins and needles waiting for the moment that I need to. Yeah. 117 00:05:19,908 --> 00:05:22,836 Immediately write a statement, because I'm not on the Vatican's Rolodex, 118 00:05:22,868 --> 00:05:24,880 and nor should I be. I'm not that important. 119 00:05:25,260 --> 00:05:28,148 >> Zach: I've. I have two funny notes to add into this. 120 00:05:28,204 --> 00:05:28,644 >> Katie: I'm ready. 121 00:05:28,692 --> 00:05:29,600 Let's hear it. 122 00:05:30,620 --> 00:05:33,492 >> Zach: First one kind of funny. His last big meeting was with 123 00:05:33,516 --> 00:05:34,516 J.D. vance. 124 00:05:34,708 --> 00:05:35,508 >> Katie: Yeah. 125 00:05:35,684 --> 00:05:37,572 >> Zach: Look around. Like, oops, what did I do? 126 00:05:37,676 --> 00:05:40,628 >> Katie: I have a running theory that J.D. vance flew back 127 00:05:40,684 --> 00:05:43,524 to the White House with a soul orb in his briefcase 128 00:05:43,572 --> 00:05:46,252 that the Pope was, like, banging on the inside of, trying to get 129 00:05:46,276 --> 00:05:49,100 out m. Because he was like, I'm praying for your health, 130 00:05:49,140 --> 00:05:52,140 Pope Francis. And my immediate question was, for or against? 131 00:05:52,260 --> 00:05:55,116 I guess we know the answer now. Um, so, 132 00:05:55,188 --> 00:05:57,850 yeah, J.D. vance got the soul cube. Um, 133 00:05:58,900 --> 00:06:01,390 not who I had my money on. Um, 134 00:06:01,940 --> 00:06:04,520 so what. What was your other 135 00:06:05,460 --> 00:06:06,640 anecdote? 136 00:06:08,580 --> 00:06:11,190 >> Zach: The level of marketing 137 00:06:11,380 --> 00:06:11,874 done. 138 00:06:11,962 --> 00:06:12,322 >> Katie: Yeah. 139 00:06:12,386 --> 00:06:14,190 >> Zach: For the movie Conclave Now. 140 00:06:14,570 --> 00:06:15,090 >> Katie: Yeah. 141 00:06:15,170 --> 00:06:16,510 >> Zach: Like, they timed that. 142 00:06:16,970 --> 00:06:19,842 >> Katie: I was about to say. I think they really waited till he 143 00:06:19,866 --> 00:06:22,754 was, like, as old as you could possibly get, and then was like, hey, we 144 00:06:22,762 --> 00:06:24,750 got a movie you guys might want to watch. 145 00:06:25,130 --> 00:06:27,618 >> Zach: They're like pneumonia. Put this, put that. 146 00:06:27,674 --> 00:06:30,642 >> Katie: Yeah. The moment Pope Francis coughed, they were like, do we 147 00:06:30,666 --> 00:06:33,570 have the movie for you? Which I've heard has 148 00:06:33,610 --> 00:06:36,610 been very good. Like, I've read Catholic media reviews, and I've read 149 00:06:36,650 --> 00:06:39,568 secular media reviews, and they've all said that it was a really good movie. 150 00:06:39,674 --> 00:06:42,468 I mean, no joke. I think it won an Oscar. So, yeah, 151 00:06:42,484 --> 00:06:45,396 I'm definitely gonna check it out, especially because it's super. 152 00:06:45,468 --> 00:06:48,452 I think I'll check it out after we get a new Pope. Because, like, right now 153 00:06:48,476 --> 00:06:51,252 I'm like, so anxious, I don't even want to consume media related to 154 00:06:51,276 --> 00:06:52,084 anything like that. 155 00:06:52,172 --> 00:06:54,880 So, yeah, also horrible week for. 156 00:06:55,580 --> 00:06:58,516 Not weak, but horrible year for it to happen. Not that there's 157 00:06:58,548 --> 00:07:01,460 ever a good year for the Pope to die, but. And I 158 00:07:01,500 --> 00:07:04,372 realized that, like, not a lot of non Catholics know about this because this has 159 00:07:04,396 --> 00:07:07,090 been my whole world for like a long time 160 00:07:07,130 --> 00:07:10,130 now. But this year in particular was a 161 00:07:10,170 --> 00:07:12,738 jubilee year, which only happens every 162 00:07:12,794 --> 00:07:13,858 25 years. 163 00:07:13,994 --> 00:07:15,074 >> Zach: What's a jubilee? 164 00:07:15,202 --> 00:07:18,082 >> Katie: So a jubilee year is like, every 25 165 00:07:18,106 --> 00:07:21,042 years, there's a big celebration in the church. They like, come up with a 166 00:07:21,066 --> 00:07:23,922 theme, they open the jubilee doors in Rome. Like, 167 00:07:23,946 --> 00:07:26,930 it's a huge event. Like, the Pope opens them. Um, and then 168 00:07:26,970 --> 00:07:29,762 like, whatever the theme is for that year, Catholics all 169 00:07:29,786 --> 00:07:32,674 across the world, like, participate in the theme. So 170 00:07:32,682 --> 00:07:35,650 this year it's Pilgrims of Hope. And so a lot of people 171 00:07:35,690 --> 00:07:38,578 were taking pilgrimages to Rome. I actually knew a group that was in 172 00:07:38,634 --> 00:07:41,602 Rome this past week while the Pope's funeral and 173 00:07:41,626 --> 00:07:44,322 everything was going on. They got there like their plane 174 00:07:44,386 --> 00:07:47,362 landed and then they were given the announcement that the Pope had died to let 175 00:07:47,386 --> 00:07:50,098 you know, like, how the timing went for them. 176 00:07:50,234 --> 00:07:53,122 But so, yeah, so, so 177 00:07:53,146 --> 00:07:56,146 my next question would have been, okay, are the rest of the flights discounted 178 00:07:56,258 --> 00:07:58,914 if, like, half of what we came here for is no longer 179 00:07:58,962 --> 00:08:01,836 valid? Um, but who knows? Maybe 180 00:08:01,868 --> 00:08:04,540 they would have charged it more because that's like a rare event. I don't know. 181 00:08:04,660 --> 00:08:07,660 But it's like, it was a huge

year for 182 00:08:07,700 --> 00:08:10,652 celebrating. Um, still is, obviously. I 183 00:08:10,676 --> 00:08:13,600 mean, now it's just got a little bit of a hiccup in it. Um, 184 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,572 but there were also a bunch of other, like, environmental 185 00:08:16,636 --> 00:08:19,276 specific celebrations going on. So it was like the 10th 186 00:08:19,308 --> 00:08:22,092 anniversary of the. I keep saying was. It 187 00:08:22,116 --> 00:08:24,700 still is. Even in spite of the pro being dead, we're still 188 00:08:24,740 --> 00:08:27,342 celebrating things. It's just a stranger 189 00:08:27,406 --> 00:08:30,382 lens through which we're celebrating. I know I'm in 190 00:08:30,406 --> 00:08:33,038 more like it's. No, no more jubilee year. Jubilee. You're 191 00:08:33,054 --> 00:08:35,790 canceled. Um, yeah, no, it's all canceled. No church 192 00:08:35,870 --> 00:08:38,814 till 2026. But, um, yeah, so we 193 00:08:38,822 --> 00:08:41,390 were like, also celebrating the 10 year anniversary of his 194 00:08:41,430 --> 00:08:43,982 encyclical about caring for creation. 195 00:08:44,126 --> 00:08:47,102 It's the 800th anniversary of St. Francis's 196 00:08:47,166 --> 00:08:49,630 who's like, the big environmental site is a 197 00:08:49,670 --> 00:08:52,528 canticle of creation. So I mean, it was just like, 198 00:08:52,654 --> 00:08:55,612 if there, there could not have been a worse year for 199 00:08:55,636 --> 00:08:58,556 a Pope to die. No disrespect, Papa 200 00:08:58,588 --> 00:09:01,388 Frank. But, uh, yeah, no, because now, 201 00:09:01,444 --> 00:09:04,140 like, all of the language around these things are having to be 202 00:09:04,180 --> 00:09:07,180 like. I'll put it like this. After getting some 203 00:09:07,220 --> 00:09:09,980 statements out after the Pope's death a week ago 204 00:09:10,020 --> 00:09:12,956 today, I was like, okay, now I get to rewrite everything 205 00:09:13,028 --> 00:09:15,516 I've written for the last five 206 00:09:15,588 --> 00:09:18,220 months to account for. 207 00:09:18,340 --> 00:09:21,292 Hi. We can't celebrate that much. The Pope is dead. So, 208 00:09:21,316 --> 00:09:24,288 yeah, pray for all your friends who are not only Catholic, but who are 209 00:09:24,404 --> 00:09:27,176 Catholic media, because, uh, we're going to join Pope 210 00:09:27,208 --> 00:09:29,992 Francis here soon if this, if this stuff doesn't stop all 211 00:09:30,016 --> 00:09:32,856 that to go down the convoluted rabbit hole of the carbon 212 00:09:32,888 --> 00:09:33,224 price. 213 00:09:33,312 --> 00:09:35,976 All right, now that our 3 to 5 minute 214 00:09:36,008 --> 00:09:38,840 banter has gone about 10 minutes long, let me tell 215 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,736 you all about the carbon price. So Zach's 216 00:09:41,768 --> 00:09:44,696 facts have been packed full of Canadian 217 00:09:44,728 --> 00:09:47,704 carbon pricing stats. And I'm sure you're ready to hear, to smell a little 218 00:09:47,712 --> 00:09:50,296

bit of capitalistic democratic freedom 219 00:09:50,328 --> 00:09:53,152 again. So, yeah, uh, yeah, a little bit of 220 00:09:53,176 --> 00:09:55,740 American exceptionalism. Can you, can you hear, 221 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,072 can you see the flag waving behind me in your head? So 222 00:09:59,096 --> 00:10:01,840 let's talk about the American carbon price. So I was the first 223 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:04,720 introduced to the American carbon price through a little 224 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,712 old organization that we've mentioned just a couple times on this 225 00:10:07,736 --> 00:10:10,592 show called Citizens Climate Lobby. And, um, for the 226 00:10:10,616 --> 00:10:13,456 longest, Citizens Climate Lobby has been known as the carbon 227 00:10:13,488 --> 00:10:16,224 price people, also known as the carbon fee and dividend 228 00:10:16,272 --> 00:10:18,920 people. So while I think Zach and I have 229 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,832 been surrounded by this language and these people and 230 00:10:21,856 --> 00:10:24,376 these actors, and we're familiar with it and have been for 231 00:10:24,448 --> 00:10:27,320 years, I realize that a lot of this might 232 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,328 sound like Greek to a lot of y'all. So I'm 233 00:10:30,344 --> 00:10:33,160 going to attempt to deconstruct this big 234 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,104 picture model and kind of paint an image of what a 235 00:10:36,112 --> 00:10:38,984 carbon price, an American carbon price, at least is, uh, compared 236 00:10:39,032 --> 00:10:41,800 to its Canadian counterpart and some of the other 237 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,840 mechanisms that take place within the American carbon pricing, 238 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,912 I guess, picturesque frame. So this is a 239 00:10:47,936 --> 00:10:50,888 carbon fee and dividend model designed to address 240 00:10:50,944 --> 00:10:53,816 climate change by encouraging businesses to reduce their carbon 241 00:10:53,848 --> 00:10:56,840 emissions, notably by issuing them a fine or 242 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,768 a fee for a certain amount of carbon pollution. 243 00:10:59,864 --> 00:11:02,648 So the idea is to impose a price on carbon 244 00:11:02,664 --> 00:11:05,160 emissions, which incentivizes companies and 245 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,152 individuals to switch to cleaner, more sustainable practices 246 00:11:08,216 --> 00:11:11,196 and technologies. Um, and it's, it's more effective 247 00:11:11,228 --> 00:11:13,852 than a carbon cap and trade system, which just kind of lets you, 248 00:11:13,876 --> 00:11:16,620 like, buy and sell your pollution. I mean, 249 00:11:16,660 --> 00:11:19,276 I'm not a big fan of cap and trade. And we could have a Whole 250 00:11:19,308 --> 00:11:22,092 episode just on that. I think we have in the past on some of the 251 00:11:22,116 --> 00:11:24,796 drawbacks of the cap and trade system. The American 252 00:11:24,868 --> 00:11:27,772 carbon price is structured and designed to avoid 253 00:11:27,836 --> 00:11:30,748 some of those loopholes that are provided in the cap and 254 00:11:30,804 --> 00:11:33,756 trade system. So let's talk a little bit more about the carbon fee 255 00:11:33,788 --> 00:11:36,524 and dividend model, AKA that American carbon 256 00:11:36,572 --> 00:11:39,342 price. So I'll be 257 00:11:39,366 --> 00:11:41,982 talking primarily about the model that's been proposed by 258 00:11:42,006 --> 00:11:44,570 CCL because quite frankly, it's gotten the most, 259 00:11:45,030 --> 00:11:47,806 I think, legislative push behind it. They've been 260 00:11:47,878 --> 00:11:50,814 going at that, at this for 15 years. As I 261 00:11:50,822 --> 00:11:53,662 said, they're the carbon pricing people. If you're working on a 262 00:11:53,686 --> 00:11:56,526 carbon price or a carbon fee and dividend, you're calling CCL 263 00:11:56,558 --> 00:11:59,550 to talk about it. Uh, so a lot of what I talk about is 264 00:11:59,590 --> 00:12:02,542 going to largely be taken by a lot of the narrative that CCL has 265 00:12:02,566 --> 00:12:05,484 set because they are the carbon pricing people. So 266 00:12:05,492 --> 00:12:07,660 their carbon price in particular, which is the most 267 00:12:07,700 --> 00:12:10,572 popularly, as far as I'm concerned, as 268 00:12:10,596 --> 00:12:13,372 far as I know of, uh, most popularly accepted 269 00:12:13,436 --> 00:12:16,092 variant of the American carbon pricing model 270 00:12:16,236 --> 00:12:19,036 revolves around the concept of a carbon fee 271 00:12:19,148 --> 00:12:22,092 that is placed on fossil fuels. So namely 272 00:12:22,156 --> 00:12:25,036 based on the amount of carbon dioxide CO2 emissions 273 00:12:25,068 --> 00:12:28,012 that a company or an organization produces. So here 274 00:12:28,036 --> 00:12:30,796 are some of the key components of that carbon fee and dividend 275 00:12:30,828 --> 00:12:33,712 model. So there's the carbon fee. So a fee would 276 00:12:33,736 --> 00:12:36,560 be levied on fossil fuels based on the 277 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,520 CO2 emissions they produce when burned. So this 278 00:12:39,560 --> 00:12:42,560 fee starts at a fixed price per ton of 279 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:44,960 CO2 emissions and increases 280 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:47,824 annually. So companies and organizations have the 281 00:12:47,832 --> 00:12:50,832 opportunity to pay the fee and to stop polluting or they're just 282 00:12:50,856 --> 00:12:53,536 going to get charged more and more and more every single 283 00:12:53,568 --> 00:12:56,208 year. So the idea is that the fee will 284 00:12:56,264 --> 00:12:58,846 rise gradually over time to provide 285 00:12:58,918 --> 00:13:01,822 businesses and consumers with the incentives and with 286 00:13:02,006 --> 00:13:04,846 a respectable amount of time, a feasible amount of time 287 00:13:04,918 --> 00:13:07,582 to switch to cleaner alternatives. So the fee is 288 00:13:07,606 --> 00:13:10,062 applied at the point of entry, which could be at the

289 00:13:10,086 --> 00:13:12,958 wellhead, the port of entry, uh, or other 290 00:13:13,014 --> 00:13:16,014 similar places where, where fossil fuels officially enter the 291 00:13:16,022 --> 00:13:18,942 economy. So that's one part of this carbon fee and 292 00:13:18,966 --> 00:13:21,838 dividend model that is known as the carbon price. Another 293 00:13:21,894 --> 00:13:24,546 component is the carbon dividend portion 294 00:13:24,638 --> 00:13:27,322 portion. So the money raised from the 295 00:13:27,346 --> 00:13:29,978 carbon fee levied against polluting companies 296 00:13:30,114 --> 00:13:33,002 would then be returned to American households in the form 297 00:13:33,026 --> 00:13:35,754 of a dividend. So this means that the 298 00:13:35,762 --> 00:13:38,634 revenue generated from the carbon fee would be distributed 299 00:13:38,682 --> 00:13:41,450 evenly to all legal US residents 300 00:13:41,530 --> 00:13:44,314 as a rebate or a check, with priority 301 00:13:44,362 --> 00:13:47,082 given to lower and middle income class American 302 00:13:47,186 --> 00:13:50,010 families. So the, the intention is that the dividend would help 303 00:13:50,050 --> 00:13:52,748 offset any higher costs that 304 00:13:52,804 --> 00:13:55,708 consumers might face as businesses pass on the price of 305 00:13:55,764 --> 00:13:58,332 carbon fee to their customers. 306 00:13:58,476 --> 00:14:00,972 As you know, the price of things changes to 307 00:14:00,996 --> 00:14:03,980 accommodate for this carbon fee and dividend. It is a way to 308 00:14:04,020 --> 00:14:06,236 sure that ensure that the policy is 309 00:14:06,388 --> 00:14:09,276 progressive and that it is not regressive. Thank 310 00:14:09,308 --> 00:14:12,236 you, Zach. Uh, Zach, see you. You know, numbers 311 00:14:12,268 --> 00:14:14,956 and words. So what do I even do for a living? 312 00:14:15,148 --> 00:14:18,014 >> Zach: Yeah, so like when. So the richer people will be flying 313 00:14:18,062 --> 00:14:20,910 more, spending more on high influence goods or high 314 00:14:20,950 --> 00:14:23,950 carbon intensity goods and they'll pay more 315 00:14:23,990 --> 00:14:26,942 into it, but it'll be. The dividend will be 316 00:14:26,966 --> 00:14:29,790 received equally so that people who are 317 00:14:29,830 --> 00:14:32,750 using less still get. They get more 318 00:14:32,790 --> 00:14:33,790 than they put in. 319 00:14:33,910 --> 00:14:34,638 >> Katie: Absolutely. 320 00:14:34,734 --> 00:14:36,622 >> Zach: People who have lower incomes will get more. 321 00:14:36,726 --> 00:14:39,662 >> Katie: Bingo. Which is something that we had talked about a little bit, I think, 322 00:14:39,686 --> 00:14:42,494 rubbing Canadians the wrong way in the way that the uh, Canadian 323 00:14:42,542 --> 00:14:45,526 carbon price was enacted and that where the American 324 00:14:45,598 --> 00:14:48,534 carbon price is set up so that immediately the moment 325 00:14:48,582 --> 00:14:51,574 that the product enters the market,

it is set up in a way 326 00:14:51,662 --> 00:14:54,646 so that it will ultimately benefit low income 327 00:14:54,758 --> 00:14:57,414 and middle class families. Whereas with the Canadian 328 00:14:57,462 --> 00:15:00,406 carbon price you had a lot of people immediately feeling the pain 329 00:15:00,438 --> 00:15:03,302 at the pump and then not feeling like the price that 330 00:15:03,326 --> 00:15:06,310 they got on the rebate justified just how much 331 00:15:06,350 --> 00:15:09,302 they were having to pay more frequently at the pump. Which I think in 332 00:15:09,326 --> 00:15:12,182 some cases might very well be the case. We talked a little bit about that 333 00:15:12,206 --> 00:15:15,022 in that episode. So definitely go, go check out 334 00:15:15,046 --> 00:15:18,046 Zach's Canadian carbon pricing episode for a little bit of a refresher. Sorry 335 00:15:18,078 --> 00:15:18,958 to cut you off, Zach. 336 00:15:19,054 --> 00:15:21,790 >> Zach: Yeah, I think we said that they were going to be paying an extra like 38 337 00:15:21,830 --> 00:15:23,530 cents per gallon, which is 338 00:15:24,870 --> 00:15:27,230 pretty mhm. Hefty if you people here would go. 339 00:15:27,270 --> 00:15:29,710 >> Katie: Absolutely insane if you said that today. 340 00:15:29,830 --> 00:15:32,702 So yeah, and for us to be like one of the crazier 341 00:15:32,766 --> 00:15:35,630 countries and for Canada to be like one of the 342 00:15:35,670 --> 00:15:38,494 less crazy countries, if they reacted the way that they did, 343 00:15:38,582 --> 00:15:41,294 you can probably imagine how that would go over here and that it 344 00:15:41,302 --> 00:15:43,982 wouldn't. So yeah, excellent point, Zach. So the 345 00:15:44,006 --> 00:15:46,762 primary goal of this carbon, the 346 00:15:46,786 --> 00:15:49,738 American carbon pricing model is to encourage businesses 347 00:15:49,754 --> 00:15:52,618 and individuals to reduce carbon emissions by 348 00:15:52,674 --> 00:15:55,498 making fossil fuels more expensive, but and by 349 00:15:55,554 --> 00:15:58,298 incentivizing cleaner energy sources, which means that over 350 00:15:58,354 --> 00:16:01,290 time m the increasing price on carbon should 351 00:16:01,330 --> 00:16:04,090 lead to a significant reduction in the emissions and 352 00:16:04,130 --> 00:16:06,154 drive innovation in the renewable energy 353 00:16:06,242 --> 00:16:07,150 technologies. 354 00:16:07,490 --> 00:16:10,490 So obviously there's a second component of this 355 00:16:10,530 --> 00:16:13,450 that we haven't talked about a lot recently. But we have 356 00:16:13,490 --> 00:16:16,142 talked a lot about it in the past, and it's worth a 357 00:16:16,166 --> 00:16:18,526 refresher. And that's the carbon border adjustment 358 00:16:18,558 --> 00:16:21,470 mechanism, also called a cbam. 359 00:16:21,610 --> 00:16:24,318 Uh, you've probably heard C bands come up a lot 360 00:16:24,374 --> 00:16:27,182 lately in recent news. Zach, you and I were just talking here a few

361 00:16:27,206 --> 00:16:30,126 minutes ago about. I believe it was Senator Lindsey 362 00:16:30,158 --> 00:16:32,702 Graham and. Oh, please help me. I think he's from 363 00:16:32,806 --> 00:16:33,262 Louisiana. 364 00:16:33,326 --> 00:16:35,690 >> Zach: Yes, from Louisiana, yes, yes. 365 00:16:35,690 --> 00:16:38,542 >> Katie: Uh, and both of them are working on some legislation related to that 366 00:16:38,566 --> 00:16:41,508 right now. Did you have a little more information on that? I didn't get a chance to 367 00:16:41,614 --> 00:16:43,540 dive too deeply into that here. 368 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,180 >> Zach: I mean, they're still trying to get the 369 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,144 verbiage built out. It's still in 370 00:16:49,232 --> 00:16:52,088 committee, I believe, so it's not coming 371 00:16:52,144 --> 00:16:55,016 out yet. EU does have. They have their own, 372 00:16:55,060 --> 00:16:57,736 uh, carbon border adjustment mechanism that they are implementing 373 00:16:57,848 --> 00:17:00,712 now. Not sure when it's gonna be fully implemented, but we 374 00:17:00,736 --> 00:17:03,736 have to be aware that we're gonna have to be paying a carbon 375 00:17:03,848 --> 00:17:06,632 adjustment for imports into or 376 00:17:06,656 --> 00:17:08,020 exports into Europe. 377 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,088 So this is a policy that's 378 00:17:12,104 --> 00:17:15,064 being implemented in other countries. And I think it's a policy that could 379 00:17:15,072 --> 00:17:17,912 be really effective for. We know 380 00:17:17,936 --> 00:17:19,760 Trump's favorite word is tariff, so. 381 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:20,040 >> Katie: Huh. 382 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,904 >> Zach: I think it could be an effective way to levy a tariff 383 00:17:22,952 --> 00:17:25,220 with a goal and a point. 384 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,100 Because a lot of Trump's tariffs feel very, 385 00:17:28,830 --> 00:17:31,784 um. I don't know, they feel very off the cuff, 386 00:17:31,832 --> 00:17:34,066 not calculated to meet. 387 00:17:34,218 --> 00:17:37,186 >> Katie: Countries are confused with not. Not. Not number oriented 388 00:17:37,218 --> 00:17:38,338 at all, it seems like. 389 00:17:38,394 --> 00:17:41,234 >> Zach: Yeah. So this would give countries be like, we are 390 00:17:41,242 --> 00:17:44,146 putting this tariff on you for this reason because you are polluting 391 00:17:44,178 --> 00:17:46,850 this much more than we do. And this would give that country 392 00:17:46,890 --> 00:17:49,630 incentive to pollute less. It would also 393 00:17:49,930 --> 00:17:52,802 protect American companies by adding this 394 00:17:52,826 --> 00:17:55,650 additional pollution fee to cover all the 395 00:17:55,690 --> 00:17:58,626 pollution that China has. Vietnam, that don't 396 00:17:58,658 --> 00:18:01,602 have the same environmental requirements that the US does in protecting 397 00:18:01,666 --> 00:18:04,520 our environment. So it'll sort of. It'll level 398 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:05,700 out the playing field. 399 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,256 >> Katie: Absolutely. And obviously, it would go without 400 00:18:09,328 --> 00:18:11,816 saying that it's exciting any 401 00:18:11,968 --> 00:18:14,280 time that we're talking about this, that two 402 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,112 conservatives, particularly from the south, would 403 00:18:17,136 --> 00:18:19,992 be investigating legislation to make this a 404 00:18:20,016 --> 00:18:22,920 reality. But that's exactly what's going on. And it's even 405 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,528 bigger right now, I think, because it's under a Trump 406 00:18:25,584 --> 00:18:28,552 presidency. So I think that this shows that even when all the 407 00:18:28,576 --> 00:18:31,032 odds would be stacked against environmentalists and 408 00:18:31,056 --> 00:18:33,856 conservatives, lo and behold, the common sense 409 00:18:33,888 --> 00:18:36,688 appears to be prevailing. Knock, uh, on wood for that. But 410 00:18:36,744 --> 00:18:39,456 clearly, that indicates, I think, that this 411 00:18:39,608 --> 00:18:41,180 is a way of 412 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,040 Tackling an environmental issue in a way that's so 413 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,600 economically feasible that you've got the party that 414 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,592 touts economic feasibility investigating it. Uh, so 415 00:18:50,616 --> 00:18:52,896 there's clearly something of meat and substance here, 416 00:18:52,968 --> 00:18:55,472 particularly when it comes to protecting ourselves in our 417 00:18:55,496 --> 00:18:58,352 market against the EU and even countries like 418 00:18:58,376 --> 00:19:01,312 Russia and China, which is one of the biggest compelling arguments for a 419 00:19:01,336 --> 00:19:04,044 carbon border adjustment mechanism. But we'll get more into that here in a 420 00:19:04,052 --> 00:19:04,524 minute. 421 00:19:04,652 --> 00:19:07,532 So let's talk a little bit more about a carbon border adjustment mechanism in 422 00:19:07,556 --> 00:19:10,412 general. So a CBAM is the idea. It's an 423 00:19:10,436 --> 00:19:13,180 idea, pardon me, that would complement the carbon price. It 424 00:19:13,220 --> 00:19:15,628 specifically addresses international trade 425 00:19:15,684 --> 00:19:18,524 concerns. So essentially, a CBAM aims to 426 00:19:18,532 --> 00:19:21,308 prevent what is known as carbon leakage, where 427 00:19:21,364 --> 00:19:24,204 businesses move production to countries with less stringent 428 00:19:24,252 --> 00:19:26,764 carbon regulations. So a CBM 429 00:19:26,812 --> 00:19:29,756 ensures that imports into the US are subject 430 00:19:29,788 --> 00:19:32,788 to the same carbon pricing mechanisms as domestic goods. 431 00:19:32,924 --> 00:19:35,732 So this helps to level the playing field. Exactly as you 432 00:19:35,756 --> 00:19:38,740 said, Zach, um, between US manufacturers who 433 00:19:38,780 --> 00:19:41,780 face the carbon fee and foreign competitors who may 434 00:19:41,820 --> 00:19:44,772

not have to pay such a price for their emissions. So 435 00:19:44,796 --> 00:19:47,540 the way that it works is that a carbon tariff, 436 00:19:47,620 --> 00:19:50,452 that fabulous little T word you just mentioned, Zach, 437 00:19:50,596 --> 00:19:53,396 or adjustment, is imposed on imported 438 00:19:53,428 --> 00:19:56,212 goods based on their carbon content. So that means that 439 00:19:56,236 --> 00:19:58,806 products like steel, cement, 440 00:19:58,988 --> 00:20:01,842 other industrial goods that are super carbon intensive 441 00:20:01,906 --> 00:20:04,866 in their manufacturing will have their emissions priced 442 00:20:04,898 --> 00:20:07,490 accordingly. So that tariff will be 443 00:20:07,530 --> 00:20:10,002 calculated based on the carbon emissions associated with the 444 00:20:10,026 --> 00:20:12,642 production of that good in the country of 445 00:20:12,666 --> 00:20:15,362 origin. And if the country of origin doesn't have an 446 00:20:15,386 --> 00:20:17,954 equivalent carbon pricing system or less stringent 447 00:20:18,002 --> 00:20:20,850 regulations, then the tariff would be higher in order 448 00:20:20,890 --> 00:20:23,698 to compensate for this disparity. So 449 00:20:23,754 --> 00:20:26,612 one of the key objectives of a CBAM 450 00:20:26,746 --> 00:20:29,744 is to encourage other countries to adopt similar 451 00:20:29,832 --> 00:20:32,576 carbon pricing policies in order to reduce the risk 452 00:20:32,648 --> 00:20:35,632 of carbon leakage. And it also aims to 453 00:20:35,736 --> 00:20:37,984 push global trade towards more sustainable 454 00:20:38,032 --> 00:20:41,024 practices. So obviously, the CBAM would need 455 00:20:41,032 --> 00:20:43,408 to comply with international trade rules, 456 00:20:43,504 --> 00:20:46,210 particularly regulations based on, set, uh, 457 00:20:46,376 --> 00:20:49,312 up by the World Trade Organization. So obviously a 458 00:20:49,336 --> 00:20:52,286 CBAM right out of the gate has to be set up in a way that, 459 00:20:52,368 --> 00:20:54,866 that's fair and transparent to all players 460 00:20:54,938 --> 00:20:57,602 involved. So we've talked a lot about the economics of 461 00:20:57,626 --> 00:21:00,354 it. Let's talk, um, just, uh, a fraction about the 462 00:21:00,362 --> 00:21:03,330 environmental impact. You're probably picking up a lot of what we're putting down 463 00:21:03,370 --> 00:21:06,354 reading in between the lines here anyway. So the goal of 464 00:21:06,362 --> 00:21:08,962 the CBAM is to help reduce global 465 00:21:09,066 --> 00:21:11,666 carbon emissions by ensuring that international 466 00:21:11,818 --> 00:21:14,322 trade doesn't undermine domestic climate 467 00:21:14,386 --> 00:21:17,106 policies. It seals that loophole. That's, again, 468 00:21:17,178 --> 00:21:20,146 very apparent. In a lot of cap and trade systems where it's okay, 469 00:21:20,178 --> 00:21:23,072 well then I'll just buy it either through a third party in 470 00:21:23,096 --> 00:21:25,984 another country or I'll just have all my stuff done there. So 471 00:21:25,992 --> 00:21:28,928 it, it actively seeks to combat that from the jump. 472 00:21:29,024 --> 00:21:31,968 If it works, a CBAM can encourage other countries 473 00:21:32,024 --> 00:21:34,944 to adopt stronger climate policies or face economic 474 00:21:35,032 --> 00:21:37,488 penalties. So obviously there's been a lot of talk about 475 00:21:37,544 --> 00:21:40,100 CBAMs in recent years, particularly 476 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,120 following the beginning of the war in 477 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,176 Ukraine, the Russian Ukraine war. No telling 478 00:21:46,208 --> 00:21:48,144 what they're going to call that in the history books. No telling. 479 00:21:48,192 --> 00:21:50,272 >> Zach: No, but I think jokes to myself. 480 00:21:50,416 --> 00:21:53,344 >> Katie: Yeah, yeah, yeah, don't get us canceled 481 00:21:53,392 --> 00:21:56,160 any more than we already are eligible to be canceled just 482 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,120 by nature of existing. But I think that that's when a lot of people 483 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,112 started to investigate the feasibility of a CBAM as 484 00:22:02,136 --> 00:22:05,090 well as a carbon price in general. Because a lot of people realize, hmm hm. 485 00:22:05,090 --> 00:22:07,968 When you put your energy control in the hands 486 00:22:07,984 --> 00:22:10,496 of a dictator, you're at the mercy of a crazy 487 00:22:10,528 --> 00:22:13,472 dictator who can overnight completely change 488 00:22:13,576 --> 00:22:16,302 your fuel supply and pricing and 489 00:22:16,326 --> 00:22:19,022 storage and everything. So I know that us here in the US 490 00:22:19,126 --> 00:22:22,014 we began to look more closely at that. I began hearing 491 00:22:22,062 --> 00:22:24,990 more frequently about CBAMs following Russia's invasion of 492 00:22:25,030 --> 00:22:27,854 Ukraine as more of a national 493 00:22:27,942 --> 00:22:30,750 defense mechanism when it comes to economic policy and 494 00:22:30,790 --> 00:22:33,678 trade. Zach, what are your thoughts on that? Have you 495 00:22:33,734 --> 00:22:36,414 personally noticed an uptick since the Russia Ukraine 496 00:22:36,462 --> 00:22:39,326 war of folks Talking more about CBAMs and carbon 497 00:22:39,358 --> 00:22:41,092 pricing a little more seriously? 498 00:22:41,286 --> 00:22:43,992 >> Zach: It seems like it's gained some traction I think, especially with the 499 00:22:44,016 --> 00:22:46,840 EU implementing theirs, that we're gonna have to get 500 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,672 more serious about our carbon emissions and how 501 00:22:49,696 --> 00:22:52,552 they're being traded around the world. I think it, I think 502 00:22:52,576 --> 00:22:55,432 it really could be useful as a way for, to 503 00:22:55,456 --> 00:22:58,392 form more of a natural national security blanket around the 504 00:22:58,416 --> 00:23:01,320 US and sort of give 505 00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:04,232 a reason to home to bring

manufacturing 506 00:23:04,296 --> 00:23:06,712 back home. And it'll give a more stable, 507 00:23:06,776 --> 00:23:09,746 predictable uh, tariff that won't be 508 00:23:09,898 --> 00:23:12,354 because right now we have the very unpredictable 509 00:23:12,482 --> 00:23:14,786 90 days. Maybe it's on, maybe it's off again. 510 00:23:14,938 --> 00:23:17,778 >> Katie: Right. Or just overnight depending on what 511 00:23:17,834 --> 00:23:20,690 the yeah country on the receiving end 512 00:23:20,730 --> 00:23:21,074 says. 513 00:23:21,162 --> 00:23:23,778 >> Zach: So, so companies aren't going to build 514 00:23:23,834 --> 00:23:26,834 a fifty hundred million dollar 515 00:23:26,962 --> 00:23:29,922 production facility when they don't, when they think the 516 00:23:29,946 --> 00:23:32,498 rules might change in a week or two and they might be able to go back to their 517 00:23:32,554 --> 00:23:35,538 Mexico facility, Vietnamese facility. So 518 00:23:35,594 --> 00:23:37,990 something that's a little more consistent and uh, 519 00:23:37,990 --> 00:23:40,642 planned forward so that companies know how to project their 520 00:23:40,666 --> 00:23:43,538 profits, project their costs and can build out. 521 00:23:43,674 --> 00:23:46,642 But I think it's really important. I think we always harp on this as 522 00:23:46,666 --> 00:23:49,394 the national security of reducing our reliance 523 00:23:49,442 --> 00:23:51,842 on foreign oil and foreign leaders. 524 00:23:52,026 --> 00:23:54,898 And just every time, the first, first 525 00:23:54,954 --> 00:23:57,618 thing Trump does when he gets elected is give. Makes a call to, like, Saudi 526 00:23:57,634 --> 00:23:58,390 Arabia, 527 00:24:00,340 --> 00:24:02,680 Muhammad Bin Salam, and 528 00:24:03,220 --> 00:24:06,124 he's not a great guy. We don't want to be reliant on them. 529 00:24:06,292 --> 00:24:08,956 Saudi Arabia is moving more into the influence of 530 00:24:09,028 --> 00:24:11,964 China. We need to produce some separation 531 00:24:12,012 --> 00:24:14,892 from them and not be reliant on them. We did under the Biden 532 00:24:14,956 --> 00:24:17,020 administration. We did become, like, the largest 533 00:24:17,180 --> 00:24:19,852 exporter of oil. So we 534 00:24:19,876 --> 00:24:22,530 are net, net, uh, 535 00:24:22,530 --> 00:24:25,160 exporter of fossil fuels right now. 536 00:24:25,460 --> 00:24:27,530 And in my opinion, every, 537 00:24:28,790 --> 00:24:31,774 every gallon or barrel less that we don't use is something that 538 00:24:31,782 --> 00:24:34,702 we can export and make more money off of. So I just view 539 00:24:34,726 --> 00:24:36,970 it as a competitive standpoint of 540 00:24:37,430 --> 00:24:40,174 reducing your resource consumption and exporting 541 00:24:40,302 --> 00:24:41,470 for profit. 542 00:24:41,630 --> 00:24:44,542 >> Katie: Don't get high off your own supplies access. Sell it for 543 00:24:44,566 --> 00:24:45,534 a profit instead. 544 00:24:45,662 --> 00:24:46,770 >> Zach: Exactly. 545 00:24:47,110 --> 00:24:49,742 >> Katie: Well done, kingpin. All right. But, yeah, no, I 546 00:24:49,766 --> 00:24:52,622 completely agree with you. I think that once we realize that there's money to be 547 00:24:52,646 --> 00:24:55,470 made there by consuming less, um, um, 548 00:24:55,470 --> 00:24:58,400 you're right. We'd be making money hand over fist. It's just waking people 549 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,056 up to the reality that that can be achieved without 550 00:25:01,128 --> 00:25:04,032 relying on dictators and terrorists and dictator, um, and 551 00:25:04,056 --> 00:25:06,800 terrorist allies for our most prized 552 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:08,300 resources and energy. 553 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,744 >> Zach: And if we. And another point of the unpredictability of the 554 00:25:11,752 --> 00:25:14,672 tariffs is it is sort of biting us in 555 00:25:14,696 --> 00:25:17,600 our own. But because now China 556 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,570 is canceling all contracts with Boeing, they're canceling all 557 00:25:20,610 --> 00:25:23,578 natural gas imports from the US and they had, they were 558 00:25:23,714 --> 00:25:26,362 one of our major export, one of the countries we export a lot 559 00:25:26,386 --> 00:25:28,710 to. So it's sort of we need to 560 00:25:29,330 --> 00:25:32,218 plan forward and be clear and 561 00:25:32,274 --> 00:25:34,842 communicate what we want. And the 562 00:25:34,946 --> 00:25:37,802 confusion that Trump's sort of intermixed into his 563 00:25:37,826 --> 00:25:40,442 trade policy is causing a lot of 564 00:25:40,466 --> 00:25:43,146 uncertainty, which is not great for my stock portfolio. 565 00:25:43,258 --> 00:25:45,802 >> Katie: Somebody let Trump know that we can't export to 566 00:25:45,826 --> 00:25:48,792 ourselves. Um, I think that once he 567 00:25:48,816 --> 00:25:51,720 figures that out, I don't know where he's planning on getting 568 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,712 all this stuff, but, uh, we, we can't send it to 569 00:25:54,736 --> 00:25:55,420 ourselves. 570 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,512 So let's talk a little bit more about the relationship 571 00:25:59,576 --> 00:26:02,504 between a carbon price and CBAMs, and 572 00:26:02,512 --> 00:26:05,496 then I'll talk a little bit more about, um, some of the global 573 00:26:05,568 --> 00:26:08,520 and domestic economic and political considerations 574 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,464 to bringing a carbon price on a CBAM 575 00:26:11,512 --> 00:26:14,322 to life. So firstly, the CBAM and the 576 00:26:14,346 --> 00:26:17,202 carbon border adjustment fee, or the carbon fee and dividend 577 00:26:17,266 --> 00:26:20,226 together the carbon fee and dividend approach and the carbon border 578 00:26:20,258 --> 00:26:23,090 adjustment aim to reduce domestic emissions 579 00:26:23,170 --> 00:26:25,554 and ensure that the US Is not at a competitive 580 00:26:25,602 --> 00:26:28,514 disadvantage when it comes to participating in global 581 00:26:28,602 -->

00:26:31,442 markets because they've got a strong climate 582 00:26:31,506 --> 00:26:34,450 policy. So this is where I know we talk a lot on the 583 00:26:34,490 --> 00:26:37,106 show about conservatives needing to embrace the balance 584 00:26:37,138 --> 00:26:40,002 between economics and conservation. And 585 00:26:40,026 --> 00:26:42,962 this is a key example of that. The carbon fee itself 586 00:26:43,026 --> 00:26:45,678 creates a strong economic and incentive for 587 00:26:45,734 --> 00:26:48,206 US businesses and consumers to reduce their carbon 588 00:26:48,238 --> 00:26:50,894 emissions, while the CBAM addresses the global 589 00:26:50,982 --> 00:26:53,982 aspect by ensuring that imports are held to 590 00:26:54,006 --> 00:26:56,222 similar standards, which prevents industries from 591 00:26:56,246 --> 00:26:59,166 relocating to countries that have weaker 592 00:26:59,198 --> 00:27:01,854 environmental regulations. So the carbon fee and 593 00:27:01,862 --> 00:27:04,782 dividend approach has gained a significant amount of 594 00:27:04,806 --> 00:27:07,646 support among moderate Democrats and some Republicans, especially 595 00:27:07,718 --> 00:27:10,430 due to the dividend aspect, which appeals to those 596 00:27:10,470 --> 00:27:13,040 concerned about the economic impact on 597 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,904 consumers. It is seen as a way to address climate 598 00:27:15,952 --> 00:27:18,800 change while mitigating potential economic hardship for low 599 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,776 and middle income families. But some of the pushback 600 00:27:21,808 --> 00:27:24,752 that I've seen related to this is that it doesn't end. 601 00:27:24,776 --> 00:27:27,616 Obviously you'll know what our opinion is on this show. A lot of folks 602 00:27:27,648 --> 00:27:30,192 say that it doesn't go far enough and that it only 603 00:27:30,296 --> 00:27:33,216 respects. Well, maybe I shouldn't say respects. It only gives 604 00:27:33,248 --> 00:27:35,616 a like dividend 605 00:27:35,808 --> 00:27:38,592 back to American citizen families. So 606 00:27:38,616 --> 00:27:41,264 undocumented folks are pretty much left out of the 607 00:27:41,272 --> 00:27:44,252 equation. And a lot of indigenous indigenous communities have not 608 00:27:44,276 --> 00:27:46,732 been interacted with for discussing the 609 00:27:46,756 --> 00:27:49,436 intricacies of what a carbon fee and dividend 610 00:27:49,468 --> 00:27:52,204 returned to indigenous communities might look like. So a lot of 611 00:27:52,212 --> 00:27:55,110 indigenous communities are largely left out of it as well. So 612 00:27:55,110 --> 00:27:58,092 um, that's a lot of the critique that comes from Democrats that are 613 00:27:58,116 --> 00:28:00,796 a little bit further left. If you might be wondering why aren't 614 00:28:00,828 --> 00:28:03,612 Democrats supporting an environmental policy, well, that would be 615 00:28:03,636 --> 00:28:06,492 why they don't feel that it goes far enough. Another thing to consider 616 00:28:06,596 --> 00:28:09,564 is that in the case of the American carbon price, there have 617 00:28:09,572 --> 00:28:12,302 been a lot of exceptions made. And I don't have the full 618 00:28:12,326 --> 00:28:14,718 list in front of me, but I know that it's military 619 00:28:14,814 --> 00:28:16,670 transportation. So like trucking, 620 00:28:16,750 --> 00:28:19,390 agriculture, um, 621 00:28:19,670 --> 00:28:22,574 I think I said transportation. So like aircraft flights, I 622 00:28:22,582 --> 00:28:25,566 think was, was one of the ones included. But there are several sectors 623 00:28:25,598 --> 00:28:28,126 that have been exempt from 624 00:28:28,198 --> 00:28:30,894 falling within the jurisdiction of a carbon fee and 625 00:28:30,902 --> 00:28:33,742 dividend as a way to appeal to the widest audience 626 00:28:33,806 --> 00:28:36,398 available while also not too 627 00:28:36,454 --> 00:28:39,342 grossly causing economic upset in a direction and 628 00:28:39,366 --> 00:28:41,834 in sectors that aren't the primary 629 00:28:41,882 --> 00:28:44,842 intention of the carbon price. So that's something to keep 630 00:28:44,866 --> 00:28:45,498 in mind. 631 00:28:45,634 --> 00:28:48,058 >> Zach: Always got to make sure you have something in there to protect farmers because they already. 632 00:28:48,114 --> 00:28:50,090 >> Katie: Exactly. Oh, yeah, oh yeah, right. 633 00:28:50,130 --> 00:28:51,098 >> Zach: Center up and down. 634 00:28:51,234 --> 00:28:54,058 >> Katie: Yeah. And I think that that's something that is very 635 00:28:54,114 --> 00:28:56,826 unique, I think, to the U.S. obviously there's 636 00:28:56,858 --> 00:28:59,450 farmers everywhere and there's going to be farmers in Europe as 637 00:28:59,490 --> 00:29:02,282 well. But when you look at the numbers of just how 638 00:29:02,306 --> 00:29:05,130 few farmers there are here in the US and just how many people they 639 00:29:05,170 --> 00:29:08,034 have to feed. Yeah, I agree with you completely, Zach. 640 00:29:08,082 --> 00:29:11,050 Farmers needed all the legs up that they can get. And, uh, 641 00:29:11,226 --> 00:29:14,162 so the CBAM and carbon price folks are pretty smart when it came to 642 00:29:14,186 --> 00:29:16,578 crafting legislation to make sure that they weren't dinging these 643 00:29:16,634 --> 00:29:19,234 folks once again. And I think a lot of that also 644 00:29:19,322 --> 00:29:22,290 created a lot of buy in from folks on the right whose immediate 645 00:29:22,370 --> 00:29:24,722 protests were going to be military and 646 00:29:24,746 --> 00:29:26,626 agriculture. So. Excellent. 647 00:29:26,658 --> 00:29:29,538 >> Zach: Maybe Bill Cassidy foresight. Maybe Bill Cassidy, Lindsey 648 00:29:29,554 --> 00:29:32,402 Graham learned some lessons watching, uh, the farmers in Europe and how they 649 00:29:32,426 --> 00:29:32,898 protest. 650 00:29:32,994 --> 00:29:34,754 >> Katie: Actually, like, like, I know we joke. 651 00:29:34,802 --> 00:29:35,928 >> Zach:

We don't want to piss them off. 652 00:29:36,034 --> 00:29:38,860 >> Katie: Yeah, I think that's legitimately, I think they realize, yeah, we 653 00:29:38,900 --> 00:29:41,612 don't want to piss off the folks that have like 3 tons of 654 00:29:41,636 --> 00:29:44,476 manure at their disposal at any given time. We operate 655 00:29:44,508 --> 00:29:47,436 out of buildings that are primarily white. Maybe we, maybe 656 00:29:47,468 --> 00:29:50,380 we should invite that upon themselves. A good idea. 657 00:29:50,460 --> 00:29:53,228 Let's talk a little bit about the international component of 658 00:29:53,284 --> 00:29:56,092 bringing this to life as well. So the CBAM 659 00:29:56,156 --> 00:29:58,748 becomes a little more contentious when there's more players 660 00:29:58,804 --> 00:30:01,532 involved, which means it gets a little more contentious when it's on the 661 00:30:01,556 --> 00:30:04,556 international stage. So it might incentivize some countries 662 00:30:04,628 --> 00:30:07,458 to implement their own carbon pricing systems. But I 663 00:30:07,514 --> 00:30:10,498 also lead to trade tensions, particularly with nations 664 00:30:10,514 --> 00:30:13,442 that have a less robust climate policy. So the 665 00:30:13,466 --> 00:30:16,434 US would need to engage diplomatically to ensure that the 666 00:30:16,442 --> 00:30:19,362 mechanism doesn't violate trade agreements and is perceived as 667 00:30:19,386 --> 00:30:22,242 fair globally. I know that, uh, some of the countries that are 668 00:30:22,266 --> 00:30:24,674 always brought up anytime that I lobby 669 00:30:24,722 --> 00:30:27,650 conservative offices in support of a carbon price 670 00:30:27,690 --> 00:30:30,562 are always, well, what does this do about China, India and Russia? Those 671 00:30:30,586 --> 00:30:33,126 are always the three that are mentioned. Well, it's 672 00:30:33,158 --> 00:30:35,894 a carbon border adjustment mechanism. 673 00:30:36,022 --> 00:30:38,822 They will have to face some of the same fines and 674 00:30:38,846 --> 00:30:41,174 penalties that everybody else does. That's how the fee 675 00:30:41,222 --> 00:30:44,022 works. So it's always interesting to hear them 676 00:30:44,046 --> 00:30:46,774 talk about it or about these countries 677 00:30:46,862 --> 00:30:49,830 first. When we can't control what these countries do on their 678 00:30:49,870 --> 00:30:52,742 own time for themselves, we do have 679 00:30:52,766 --> 00:30:55,382 a say in how they interact with us, uh, which is where the 680 00:30:55,406 --> 00:30:58,390 CBAM comes in. So obviously it's meant to create a more 681 00:30:58,430 --> 00:31:01,282 level playing field again. And another thing 682 00:31:01,306 --> 00:31:04,034 to consider here is that I think it also gives us protection 683 00:31:04,082 --> 00:31:06,914 against countries that might not be completely 684 00:31:06,962 --> 00:31:09,730 honest with us. My immediate first thought is 685 00:31:09,770 --> 00:31:12,562 China. Obviously, I think a lot of people realize 686 00:31:12,626 --> 00:31:15,090 just how bad China fudges the numbers on, like 687 00:31:15,130 --> 00:31:17,586 everything during the COVID 688 00:31:17,658 --> 00:31:20,210 pandemic, because the numbers that China was 689 00:31:20,250 --> 00:31:23,186 reporting were nowhere near the numbers that everybody else 690 00:31:23,218 --> 00:31:26,066 had. So you don't exactly want to play fair 691 00:31:26,138 --> 00:31:29,026 with somebody who's just making the numbers up every single day. 692 00:31:29,098 --> 00:31:31,998 China might say that they've got the best climate possible, see, in the whole 693 00:31:32,014 --> 00:31:34,862 wide world, and maybe they've got one that's better than ours. But 694 00:31:34,886 --> 00:31:37,822 I'm not going to believe China's numbers on how China's performing on 695 00:31:37,846 --> 00:31:40,766 the environment, because I can't believe China's numbers on how China's performing 696 00:31:40,798 --> 00:31:43,534 on anything. So this carbon border 697 00:31:43,582 --> 00:31:46,254 adjustment mechanism would have some hard and fast 698 00:31:46,302 --> 00:31:48,798 rules in place to prevent a lot of that loosey 699 00:31:48,814 --> 00:31:51,806 goosey, uh, I just made it up. That's my source from happening 700 00:31:51,838 --> 00:31:54,670 from a lot of other countries. So that's something to keep in mind 701 00:31:54,710 --> 00:31:57,710 as well. And when it comes to the World 702 00:31:57,750 --> 00:32:00,606 Trade Organization, obviously, as mentioned earlier, the CBAM 703 00:32:00,638 --> 00:32:03,532 would have to be within WTO compliance. And in 704 00:32:03,556 --> 00:32:06,476 order to comply with those rules, the CBM 705 00:32:06,508 --> 00:32:09,068 would need to ensure that it doesn't discriminate against 706 00:32:09,124 --> 00:32:11,916 specific countries, but instead imposes tariffs 707 00:32:12,028 --> 00:32:14,796 on all imports according to their carbon emissions without 708 00:32:14,868 --> 00:32:17,852 unduly harming developing economies that might not have 709 00:32:17,876 --> 00:32:20,796 the resources to even implement a similar carbon 710 00:32:20,828 --> 00:32:23,756 pricing system for themselves. So obviously it would 711 00:32:23,908 --> 00:32:26,908 have to make sure that it does not disparage any 712 00:32:26,964 --> 00:32:29,932 country that is more likely to face the negative repercussions of 713 00:32:29,956 --> 00:32:32,796 climate change than it is to exacerbate the effects 714 00:32:32,828 --> 00:32:33,800 of climate change. 715 00:32:36,450 --> 00:32:39,322 So the American Carbon Price and its sister 716 00:32:39,386 --> 00:32:42,330 carbon border adjustment mechanism are both designed to 717 00:32:42,370 --> 00:32:45,226 tackle climate change by pricing carbon emissions 718 00:32:45,258 --> 00:32:48,250 and incentivizing, uh, sustainable practices, while 719 00:32:48,290 --> 00:32:51,178 also addressing the risk of carbon leakage in international

720 00:32:51,314 --> 00:32:54,122 trade. So this has got a nice balance of 721 00:32:54,146 --> 00:32:56,570 domestic policy, international trade 722 00:32:56,610 --> 00:32:59,162 agreements, and they all represent a robust 723 00:32:59,226 --> 00:33:01,738 approach to reducing emissions and fostering global 724 00:33:01,794 --> 00:33:04,586 cooperation on climate action. So the key 725 00:33:04,658 --> 00:33:07,114 to its success is going to lie in careful 726 00:33:07,162 --> 00:33:10,074 implementation, uh, obviously bipartisan 727 00:33:10,122 --> 00:33:12,890 support. We saw what happens, um, back 728 00:33:12,930 --> 00:33:13,914 in, what, 729 00:33:14,082 --> 00:33:16,938 2022, when you have 730 00:33:16,994 --> 00:33:19,754 one party and one party alone pass climate 731 00:33:19,802 --> 00:33:22,330 legislation, the other party will harp on it for the rest of their 732 00:33:22,370 --> 00:33:24,922 lives. So obviously this is going to need to be 733 00:33:24,946 --> 00:33:27,850 bipartisan. So I'm really encouraged to see that 734 00:33:27,890 --> 00:33:30,762 conservatives are leading the talks on this because they're the ones that I would expect 735 00:33:30,786 --> 00:33:33,496 to be a little bit hesitant. So hopefully enough moderate 736 00:33:33,528 --> 00:33:36,104 Democrats will come to the table for this to be considered 737 00:33:36,152 --> 00:33:39,144 bipartisan legislation in the near future. So we'll just have to 738 00:33:39,152 --> 00:33:41,544 see what happens from there. We'll keep you updated here. 739 00:33:41,632 --> 00:33:44,632 Hopefully, as we hope, uh, good things work out 740 00:33:44,656 --> 00:33:47,144 with Senator Graham and Senator 741 00:33:47,192 --> 00:33:50,120 Cassidy as they do their own investigation on 742 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,936 carbon pricing and carbon border adjustment mechanisms. Yeah. 743 00:33:53,048 --> 00:33:55,816 >> Zach: And hopefully. So for some action steps, hopefully we can get 744 00:33:55,888 --> 00:33:58,872 people out and telling their senators and congressmen that they want this 745 00:33:58,896 --> 00:34:01,618 and that they're interested in what these people are doing. 746 00:34:01,754 --> 00:34:04,690 >> Katie: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Zach, excellent segue. 747 00:34:04,770 --> 00:34:07,650 I know. Always on the show, for action steps, we're telling people, 748 00:34:07,690 --> 00:34:10,610 call your member of Congress. Oh, my God. Do it now. Call your member 749 00:34:10,650 --> 00:34:13,410 of Congress. Let them know that you support a 750 00:34:13,450 --> 00:34:16,290 carbon price and a carbon border adjustment mechanism. As 751 00:34:16,330 --> 00:34:19,154 a young conservative environmentalist, those would be the key words. 752 00:34:19,202 --> 00:34:22,178 That's like saying you're a unicorn. The moment you say those 753 00:34:22,234 --> 00:34:25,122 words, everybody in the office is listening to what you're saying because 754 00:34:25,146 --> 00:34:27,889 they can't believe they've got a unicorn on the phone. So 755 00:34:27,929 --> 00:34:30,417 call your member of Congress and let them know that as a young 756 00:34:30,473 --> 00:34:33,169 conservative, you are concerned about the environment 757 00:34:33,289 --> 00:34:36,161 and you are in support of a carbon price and a 758 00:34:36,185 --> 00:34:39,121 carbon border adjustment mechanism. And hopefully you know a little bit 759 00:34:39,145 --> 00:34:41,841 more about the Canadian carbon price from 760 00:34:41,865 --> 00:34:44,849 Zach's episode that you. So that if they bring that up, you can tell them, uh, ah, 761 00:34:44,889 --> 00:34:47,069 not really. Ours is better because it's American. 762 00:34:48,009 --> 00:34:50,913 So seriously, though, do a little bit of research on the American 763 00:34:51,001 --> 00:34:53,809 carbon price, a little bit of research on what Senators 764 00:34:53,889 --> 00:34:56,851 Graham and Cassidy are proposing. Um, and see how 765 00:34:56,875 --> 00:34:59,811 you feel about that. See what your thoughts are and be sure that your member of 766 00:34:59,835 --> 00:35:02,627 Congress knows it. They make seven figures a year. Make them earn 767 00:35:02,643 --> 00:35:03,199 it. 768 00:35:04,299 --> 00:35:06,723 >> Zach: Yep. Get out. Go out and get them. 769 00:35:06,811 --> 00:35:09,571 >> Katie: Yeah. Pester your member of Congress. Do it. They 770 00:35:09,595 --> 00:35:12,467 can't stop you. It's their job. They can't hang 771 00:35:12,483 --> 00:35:15,347 up on you, by the way. Now, that's not incentive to, like, leave 772 00:35:15,363 --> 00:35:18,291 them on the phone for three hours that they cannot hang up 773 00:35:18,315 --> 00:35:20,931 on you. So if you call your member of Congress's office, be real 774 00:35:20,955 --> 00:35:23,812 nice, but keep in mind you hold 775 00:35:23,836 --> 00:35:24,600 the floor. 776 00:35:26,620 --> 00:35:29,604 For you, our listener. Email us with your thoughts. 777 00:35:29,732 --> 00:35:31,956 Our email is info greentea 778 00:35:31,988 --> 00:35:33,160 partyradio. 779 00:35:34,140 --> 00:35:37,108 >> Zach: Thank you for listening to Green Tea Party Radio. And a very special 780 00:35:37,164 --> 00:35:40,132 thank you to all of our patrons. We couldn't just do this 781 00:35:40,156 --> 00:35:40,804 without you. 782 00:35:40,892 --> 00:35:43,668 If you're interested in getting early access to episodes, well as Green Tea 783 00:35:43,684 --> 00:35:46,180 Party Radio merch, check us out @greent party 784 00:35:46,220 --> 00:35:49,102 radio.com via feedback. Tell us what's your mind 785 00:35:49,126 --> 00:35:51,262 on. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram X and 786 00:35:51,286 --> 00:35:52,210 TikTok. 787 00:35:53,030 --> 00:35:55,646 >> Katie: And just so you know, this is our passion project. 788 00:35:55,798 --> 00:35:58,702 We don't have any organizational sponsor. And just a 789 00:35:58,726 --> 00:36:01,726 reminder that Green Tea Party Radio is not representative 790 00:36:01,758 --> 00:36:04,622 of the Diocese of Little Rock, uh, Catholic Climate Covenant, or 791 00:36:04,646 --> 00:36:07,502 any of our employers. We are just building a 792 00:36:07,526 --> 00:36:10,526 movement because we want the world to know that conservatives, particularly 793 00:36:10,558 --> 00:36:13,436 young ones like us, have important things to. To say about 794 00:36:13,508 --> 00:36:14,600 climate change. 795 00:36:14,900 --> 00:36:17,756 >> Zach: If you want to hear us on your radio station, your college 796 00:36:17,788 --> 00:36:20,380 radio station, email us at info greent party 797 00:36:20,420 --> 00:36:23,276 radio.com and give us a feed. Give us a detail about your campus 798 00:36:23,308 --> 00:36:26,172 and your radio station. That email again is info 799 00:36:26,236 --> 00:36:28,876 greent party radio.com. 800 00:36:29,028 --> 00:36:30,060 thanks for listening. 801 00:36:30,140 --> 00:36:31,440 >> Katie: Thank you for listening. 802 00:36:35,700 --> 00:36:36,748 We did it. 803 00:36:36,884 --> 00:36:37,388 >> Zach: Yeah. 804 00:36:37,484 --> 00:36:39,846 >> Katie: Good episode. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. 805 00:36:39,878 --> 00:36:41,286 >> Zach: Just go, C Bam. 806 00:36:41,398 --> 00:36:44,166 >> Katie: Yeah. Let's go, C Bam. I'm team C Bam. 807 00:36:44,278 --> 00:36:47,190 Yeah. Let's get my mascot, the cbam, in the room, and 808 00:36:47,230 --> 00:36:48,070 it's like a killer whale.