النص الكامل لحلقة 5 - Management Options

sustaining our uh really good, healthy, nutrition food to our communities, and of course, economics for those individual landowners. 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:36.240 It's it's really looking at all those different pillars. 00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:48.800 And yeah, I do think that's something that I've learned in my short career, my my growing career, is how much you can take these principles, but you do have to adapt to where you are working. 00:05:48.959 --> 00:06:05.199 Um, so for me, if I'm working in the native grasslands in the interior, it's a very different conversation than uh we're closer to home, Highway 16, where we're dealing much more with range in the summer, uh, the silvo pasture opportunities and and the tame and everything in between. 00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:11.920 So uh I think that's part of the joy of the work is that it's not static, it's very complex. 00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:22.000 Uh so for us to find that line around sustainability, we we do have to be thinking about these principles and how that's going to apply in this in a specific situation. 00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:23.600 And that's just within BC. 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:37.279 So the more I work across Canada, um, it's I I feel the same kind of nuances coming through is there's so much local knowledge, um, local experiences, regional experiences that we can all learn from each other. 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:42.720 Um, but it's a very core piece of of figuring out how do we manage this so we can pass it on. 00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:57.519 Yeah, as uh as parents of both parents of of young children, uh I know that's uh leaving it in better shape for the next generation than what we found at uh Echoes for for both of us. 00:06:57.920 --> 00:07:06.319 Uh Tom, I know that that you've got a lot of experience as as well in managing variability in in Western Canada, so I will give you in a moment uh the mic. 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:22.720 But Alvan, I want to go to you first on this because I think the the notion of sustainability um from the indigenous community uh uh has a timeline well beyond what what the rest of us can consider. 00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:30.560 So your thoughts on what sustainability means uh in particular as it comes to to grassland management. 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:42.079 Yeah, um so from a I guess a blackfoot lens, uh like our baseline goes from creation, right? 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:43.279 Our creation. 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:51.600 Um that's kind of where we we build on our um kind of our thought process. 00:07:51.839 --> 00:08:11.759 So really trying to look at how our people manage the landscape historically and how we kind of utilize resources to benefit us, and then continue that on for the continuity of our culture, right? 00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:48.879 So ensuring that uh our ecosystems are there so we could go out and practice our way of life and uh utilize the resources that our culture depends on, whether that's bison or um uh prairie turnips or different type of uh edible and medicinal plants that grow in these ecosystems and ensuring that uh they thrive and that they're they're there for our for our people and for our our culture to be sustainable. 00:08:49.600 --> 00:10:29.039 And then just that connection to uh our language and our uh through place names and through different type of relationships with our ecosystems, uh ensuring that those those type of uh that type of knowledge is continually passed on when we go and visit these uh places on the landscape, whether it's Majorville or different medicine wills or effigies on the landscape that are uh in these uh prairie ecosystems, and then having our youth involved and connected so that they could connect our our language to these places, but then also connect uh our our way of life and how we survived and how we ensured that and what what type of foods we utilized in these areas and why we traveled to these specific areas in different seasons when we uh were doing our seasonal rounds and so just yeah, from that cultural Blackfoot lens, it's just really connecting language, um our way of life, and then our youth to those areas, and uh showing that importance of these remaining tracts of grasslands or uh river valleys or mountain ecosystems where Blackfoot people uh have had um connections to uh continue for future generations. 00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:33.440 Thanks to that, Alban. 00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:35.360 It's you know it's amazing. 00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:47.039 We we spent a lot of time talking about research and development and you know, through our academic systems currently to try and improve upon grassland management. 00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:55.759 But I mean you've got centuries and generations of of knowledge and it's time uh just tried, tested and and proven, right? 00:10:55.919 --> 00:11:01.679 So uh that that timeline component uh really resonates for me. 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:02.639 Thank you for that. 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:05.440 Tom, um sustainability. 00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:13.120 I know uh you worked in this, you work as a rancher and you work as a practitioner uh uh to support other other landowners. 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:17.279 Um what uh how do you sum up sustainability? 00:11:17.519 --> 00:11:22.159 Um when we look at the diversity of grasslands, you know, across across the branch. 00:11:23.519 --> 00:11:30.559 Yeah, thanks, I yeah, I just want to acknowledge that Serena and Elvin agree totally with what what they're saying as well, too. 00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:41.440 Um, you know, my comment right off the bat would be that I think grasslands, whether they're native or tame, are perfect examples of resilience and sustainability. 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:58.720 Um you know, not only do they provide forage for all the livestock and a livelihood that's Elvin alluded to for the people that depend on them, but they they provide uh you know biodiversity, soil stability, soil moisture conservation, nutrient cycling, all

these sort of things. 00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:00.879 And they do it in a steady state. 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:08.639 And in the case of our native grasslands, it's been for the last 10,000 years. 00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:19.519 They've they've done that, they've got into a steady state where they have their own uh you know nutrient cycling, they have our their own water cycling, their own energy cycles. 00:12:19.759 --> 00:12:27.360 Um and and they, like I said, they get into a steady state and they do this with with no or minimal inputs to the system. 00:12:27.519 --> 00:12:40.879 So that you know, let's just think about like in a if everything went to hell in a handbasket, um, that grass will be green in the spring or it will go dormant and it will respond to the the climate that it that it's involved in right now. 00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:47.519 So again, perfect example, perfect example of resilience and and and sustainability. 00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:48.960 Thanks for that, Tom. 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:53.039 Um so let's let's build on that and and move to tools. 00:12:53.120 --> 00:12:59.120 And uh a brief little aha moment this week, I was actually talking to uh one of our colleagues, Dr. 00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:10.879 Burke McWater, who's at the University of Nebraska in Lincoln, and she was talking about how a very large turret of land that recently got uh had been burnt uh inadvertently through wildfire. 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:13.440 And I was like, man, it's that's such a loss. 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:17.919 And then I was like, wait a minute, that's going to come back, right? 00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:33.039 So to your point on resilience, Tom, um what what are the tools that we have to either maintain and or um amplify grassland management and and productivity? 00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:41.279 Well, let's let's look at the last 10,000 years and what what evolved these grasslands? 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:44.639 It was one grazing by bison, fire. 00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:51.440 These are the natural comp uh natural forces that shaped what our grasslands look like. 00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:56.559 And when you remove those forces, you basically go back. 00:13:56.639 --> 00:14:02.960 You you you you're either on one end of the spectrum when you actually if you cultivate a piece of grassland, you you've destroyed it. 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:14.799 But if you don't use it or don't shape it through fire or grazing, you also you also uh you know you lose you lose the things like biodiversity. 00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:29.679 I mean it it will go to the a perfect example is in our pescue grasslands in in the northern part of the province here is that like a climax community uh in the fescue grassland is almost 100% pesky, and there's there's a complete loss of of biodiversity. 00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:32.799 So I I think we need to use those tools. 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:38.320 And when we use those tools, you know, we have to uh you know, like there's many forms of grazing. 00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:42.399 There, there's uh you know, we we have to adapt that. 00:14:42.639 --> 00:14:52.080 But you know, like I would say that we need to be you know goal-oriented in what we're trying to achieve, and we need to be principle-based in how we manage these these things. 00:14:52.159 --> 00:15:03.120 So and pay attention to the core principles of uh of our grazing that we we try to achieve uh you know, a healthy functioning ecosystem. 00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:06.960 Thanks, Tom. 00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:14.559 Yeah, that that flexibility and and and adaptability, even year-to-year, uh, region to region, becomes really, really important. 00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:36.480 And Strength, I think we've really tried to embrace that through the advanced grazing systems uh training course that we've built here at CFGA, and we've used uh to Tom's point a lot of those principles uh in supporting growers to to develop um grazing management plans and actually putting together uh grazing infrastructure. 00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:39.519 So how what are the breadth of tools? 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:48.080 What are those tools looking like uh NBC given given the diversity in in grassland uh types that you're that you're managing there? 00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:53.039 Yeah, I think there's a lot to think about on on this aspect. 00:15:53.200 --> 00:16:11.440 And my first thought was probably very Western about look at all like electric fencing, all the new technology, virtual fencing, uh seating drones, all these really exciting things that we're trying to find opportunities and best best ways to use these in our diverse landscapes. 00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:21.120 And and we are we we are seeing through this program, working with training agrologists on these principles and looking at these different management tools. 00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:26.080 And and I think honestly, like the development of a really strong grazing management plan. 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:40.799 Um, thinking about working with other people who've seen lots of different landscapes, have talked to a lot of different people, have built that community of practice and can bring all those different knowledge pieces of of how this might work, I think is really exciting. 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:44.080 Uh, we've seen this flush of technology coming out. 00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:55.200 Uh, some of it is a question of how do how do we utilize this, but we are seeing some really great examples of it being successful in BC, not just on tame, but also in range. 00:16:55.360 --> 00:17:08.000 How do we utilize things like virtual fencing to go through the trees and really make sure that these are tools that can help protect the sensitive areas that we don't want to be in? 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:12.240 I I think the the original tools um are being explored here. 00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:16.559 There is some work being looking at fires, bringing back fires in a controlled way. 00:17:16.720 -->

00:17:19.680 I know fires are a pretty tough four-letter word. 00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:24.240 I would say I was gonna say in BC, probably across Canada from the last few years. 00:17:24.319 --> 00:17:25.920 Um, but it has its place. 00:17:26.079 --> 00:17:33.519 And I think suppressing it for so long, trying to control that has led to different challenges. 00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:37.119 Um, but we've also seen those turn into opportunities. 00:17:37.279 --> 00:17:51.200 Um we we don't have a lot of bison, maybe, maybe up in up in the piece uh we used to, but uh, I think the research that's being done on how do we use animals, how do we use the livestock as a management tool? 00:17:51.359 --> 00:18:12.960 We've seen the BC Cattlemen's Association doing the research on utilizing livestock, um, utilizing uh bees uh to graze the underbrush, to reduce those fine fuels, um, and how effective if we can manage them in those ecosystems, how effective it can be to reduce the fire risk. 00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:22.559 So we're reducing the those extreme events while also building up soil carbon uh and just thinking about these as complex integrated systems. 00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:27.119 So, yeah, I think there's a a lot of those different tools that are coming in. 00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:39.519 I think it might be a little bit of a shift of how we see things, um, going back to all the different lessons that we can learn from the past um and bring them in in often potentially a scary way. 00:18:39.680 --> 00:18:44.880 Even the integrating livestock, there was a lot of conflict of um cows in the backyard, right? 00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:51.839 A lot of talking to neighborhoods and that interact, that that city-rural interaction of how do you make that that work. 00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:56.880 Um, but I think those are like really on-the-ground tools that we need to be exploring. 00:18:57.039 --> 00:18:58.960 Um, some are very low tech. 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:06.000 I think there's some of those new tech that's becoming uh really important uh so that we don't have a potentially negative impact. 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:20.960 There's definitely parts of our ecosystem where we we don't um we want to protect at certain times of the year riparian areas, um, our our waterways, our streams, um, in a way that I think nature could have taken care of itself. 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:31.759 But if we're integrating like larger herds, uh we just want to make sure that um we the livestock system, the livestock forage, the livestock grassland system is so resilient. 00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:33.839 Uh it is a climate solution. 00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:36.880 It has so many benefits, but it does have to be managed right. 00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:41.119 There's always ways to use tools inappropriately. 00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:46.240 Um so those are like my immediate kind of thoughts, I guess, on the management. 00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:49.200 There's also the monitoring and assessments that I think of. 00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:57.440 Um, the habitat biodiversity tool um from CFGA that I'm finding more and more agrologists, more and more land users using. 00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:16.319 Um, we have like the grassland monitoring manual uh in BC that we reference a lot for those native grasslands, um, and just finding other ways of doing those pasture assessments, so grazing response indexes, some of these kind of other, like I guess more higher up kind of management tool, monitoring and assessment. 00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:18.000 And I guess that's the scientist in me. 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:31.440 I always kind of want to make sure that we're me we're taking those measurements uh along the way so that we remembered what we did and and try to see those trends and in inform what we want to be doing or how we should be doing further. 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:47.920 So I feel like a little bit of a scattered response to their Cedric, but um that's that's what I I keep thinking of when when I think of the tools that are available, uh especially in the last few years, of all the work that's been done uh that we've really been seeing the benefit of here in BC. 00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:50.240 Yeah, thanks for that. 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:51.119 Thank you. 00:20:51.519 --> 00:21:00.160 You skipped a little bit ahead in some of the thought process around around the reporting side, but I think Tom would probably agree wholeheartedly with that. 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:06.240 Uh being able to measure progress and and report on on those outcomes is is really critical. 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:20.799 Um but before we get there, Alvin, again, when we're talking about tools, uh time-tested, time-proven tools um that have been used for, I think you said, uh since creation. 00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:32.079 So what do those tools look like today from from the First Nations lens and and how do you see them being applied across the country today? 00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:48.559 So yeah, on the on the blood reserve, we just well, we reintroduced bison in uh 2021, and then that following um spring, we reintroduced uh fire, the fire cycle. 00:21:48.880 --> 00:22:03.119 Historically, our our grasslands or mountain ecosystems, depending on where, uh they had different intervals that were uh Um the fire was being cycled through. 00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:08.720 Um Blackfoot people manipulated the landscape to so that they could thrive. 00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:32.960 And fire was a huge player in how we how we survived on this landscape for so long, uh, being able to do cultural burns uh so that we could attract bison and know where the herds were in the spring or fall, like it it ensured that we didn't have to go far or we knew how far we had to travel. 00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:55.519 And then utilizing those fires to kind of uh be on top of buffalo jump areas or where we've corralled bison in the past so that we could even easily uh harvest them from a community perspective.

00:22:55.759 --> 00:23:35.359 So uh fire played a huge part in shaping this this landscape, uh our mountain ecosystems, like there's the mountain legacy project that uh that looks at uh redocumenting uh photos from a hundred years ago or longer, and a lot of the photos show that some of those mountain ecosystems were grasslands, and due to the removal of native people, bison, and fire off the landscape kind of created these conditions that are um that are catastrophic now. 00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:37.920 That we're seeing these catastrophic fires. 00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:47.359 So um fire is a huge tool uh in how we could make our ecosystems more resilient than that. 00:23:47.519 --> 00:24:05.599 Fire suppression has kind of made our systems very vulnerable and uh reintroducing these uh fire cycles or bison grazing regimes on the landscape is um really beneficial, like what we've been seeing. 00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:11.279 Since the bison have returned, we've been seeing uh species at risk return. 00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:33.440 Uh the plant community uh kind of bounce back and thrive, and different um species utilizing the uh the ecosystems that the bison have been back in, and then our burn areas um they've been attracting ungulates, so deer. 00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:46.960 Uh the deers have been kind of flocking to the new growth this spring from the the burns, and they've been really attracted to where we've burnt this past uh kind of early spring. 00:24:47.440 --> 00:25:23.200 So um, and then just yeah, monitoring it like from a Western science perspective, like doing that baseline data or that comparison, having those control areas that you can compare and look at and document so that we could uh document the success and then kind of promote that success of these type of uh uh reintroductions and how beneficial they are into the landscape and how we can continue to utilize these. 00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:38.640 Um there's other initiatives uh across Canada where people are reintroducing their relationship with fire cultural burns in BC, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, like all over. 00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:49.839 And the uh it's been overwhelming what people have uh kind of been able to achieve with reintroducing fire. 00:25:50.079 --> 00:25:55.759 It's been healing for the the people, but then it's also been healing the landscape. 00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:05.759 So um just that and then kind of knowing the difference between uh a wildfire and then a cultural fire, right? 00:26:05.839 --> 00:26:09.039 Like and the purposes of them. 00:26:09.680 --> 00:26:13.839 Uh a lot of people they hear fire and they just get scared right away. 00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:32.640 But as we continue to reintroduce fire on the landscape, we're um we're gonna promote promote that good fire and that good fire use because it's needed, and um it's it's also a way of safeguarding our communities, ensuring that we're burning. 00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:42.960 So uh fire is a huge tool, bison

or even just uh proper grazing management techniques with uh livestock. 00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:56.880 So um just yeah, paying attention, getting out on the landscape and understanding uh how your ecosystem is responding is uh really important. 00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:17.359 Uh the soil and the grass is your foundation to your to your uh livestock, so uh really paying attention and looking at the responses and how the plant communities are responding to the grazing pressures is uh important tool. 00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:20.240 Thanks Adam. 00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:23.119 And then I'd like to I'd like to dig in a little bit deeper. 00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:38.640 I'm I'm thinking about you know the thought process around those prescribed burns and drawing those bison herds to those specific locations, and I assume there would have been some redundancy um to to manage risk out there. 00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:41.839 So but that's one of them we have to to unpack today. 00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:44.559 But I I look forward to a further conversation on that. 00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:54.319 Tom, uh talking about tools, uh you had mentioned uh in in some previous comment about tools, and there's many ways uh to get this job done. 00:27:54.559 --> 00:28:00.400 Um so from your perspective and the work that you're doing, uh what are the tools that are available? 00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:09.519 And is there a perception, Tom, that some of the tools that are available, some are uh better performers than than others? 00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:14.640 And how don't we walk our way through that that mindset adaptability? 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:15.920 Yeah, okay. 00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:21.440 So I was actually gonna almost went down a rabbit hole on fire with you on this one, but I yeah, I agree. 00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:23.519 We'll go down this other trail here. 00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:27.839 But uh that's an interesting, interesting conversation, I think, that could be had. 00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:31.039 Um Serena alluded to it. 00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:34.160 Grazing management plans like are so important. 00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:41.200 And if you look at any of the models that are out there right now for planning, the there's a couple things that they include. 00:28:41.359 --> 00:28:43.279 They include what goal setting. 00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:46.640 So you identify exactly what you want to achieve. 00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:51.039 And uh the other thing they do is is a resource analysis. 00:28:51.440 --> 00:28:59.839 Uh they understand not only land and cattle, but people, uh, your soils, your your climate that you're living in. 00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:06.640 All those things are really important, and and what you're trying to do is balance up your goals with your resources. 00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:25.200 And then you've also got to have some sort of feedback loop in there so that you either, if you're not achieving your goals, why aren't you are you uh uh like are you lacking resources

or are your goals you know unattainable? 00:29:25.759 --> 00:29:26.880 So I think about that. 00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:57.680 So when you when you think about planning, for example, you know, what what we use is a couple things, is that one first thing that we do is when we talk with producers is is we start gathering data on what's available and and doing a GIS analysis, doing some mapping analysis, understanding uh what the soils are, what the climate is, what's the the soil moisture uh you know expected to be, because every ranch is different and every area is different. 00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:05.839 And and Alvin alluded to soils will drive what the potential for your your grassland is in that area. 00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:14.720 And so we do all that GIS stuff, and and there's lots of data available and lots of those tools available for us to go into and and and assess those. 00:30:14.799 --> 00:30:23.359 And you think about uh uh a thin range site is about a half productive than a loamy range site. 00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:30.720 Or if you're in uh a black soil zone versus a brown soil zone, your your moisture is is twice the difference. 00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:35.920 So you expect that you know your stocking rates can be set like completely different. 00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:38.000 Um, so I think we have to do it. 00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:56.160 The the second thing that we do is we get out in the field and we use the the range health assessment guidelines that were developed back in the in the early 2000s and in actually back into the 80s, they they first were were were developed and they've been redone and and re-evaluated all the time. 00:30:56.240 --> 00:31:02.640 So we actually in Saskatchewan we have a new range health assessment guideline document, and it's it's tweaked a little bit, but it's good. 00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:14.720 It it it talks to you know how to uh you know, protocol around species composition, around uh you know, litter accumulation, around erosion, around bare soil, all these things. 00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:16.640 And it teaches you how to do that. 00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:22.079 And that that tells you a lot of information about the condition and the health of your pasture. 00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:32.720 And and then, you know, one of the first things it it will do is it will inform you on you know what kind of recommended stocking or you should be giving to that person. 00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:35.839 Uh are you having distribution problems? 00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:45.440 Are you having uh you know weed encroachment problems, you know, all those things are identified, and that finds the basis of your of your grazing management plan. 00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:47.039 So those are kind of the tools that we use. 00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:56.559 And uh, you know, I'll acknowledge Serena, she talked about fencing and and and things like that, uh, you know, fencing and uh, you know, like the new new stuff that's coming out, and I'm getting old here. 00:31:56.720 --> 00:32:03.680 So like when I first heard about like uh uh virtual fencing, I think in shock collars or anything. 00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:07.759 So uh but anyways, I mean those are all good tools. 00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:16.720 It's it's how you use the tools to manage the grassland, and then uh what are the outcomes of that? 00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:30.799 And and I I don't know if you you were probably around like like in the in the late 80s and early 90s, they were pumping the tires on on this high intensity short duration with promises of recommended three-time stocking rates. 00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:44.000 And I remember going out to places where the guy set up these things thinking that he was gonna you know triple his stocking rates, and you were you were left with um you know a completely overgrazed pasture. 00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:56.079 And on the other hand, I've seen guys that have just modified their stocking rates on a continuous grade system, and you're left with a healthy functioning system with a mosaic of patches work and and in not bad shape. 00:32:56.160 --> 00:32:59.200 So it reflects on each individual's goals and resources. 00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:04.559 So I'll I'll leave it there and uh let you go. 00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:14.400 No, no, no easy answers for sure, and and we need to make make ensure that we are adaptable and and thinking from a risk management perspective, right? 00:33:14.559 --> 00:33:26.640 The approach that one might take, whether you're in the brown or the black or or or or or up at the Parkland, in a dry year versus a wet year, you've still got to be adaptable to them. 00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:30.400 So how do you build that in with your clients? 00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:33.359 Uh, and how does that toolbox change? 00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:41.839 Uh well the adaptability is that you you don't have a prescriptive grazing management plan or a cookie cutter type plan. 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:50.319 You always build in uh um you know uh an off-ramp for you if something goes wrong. 00:33:50.480 --> 00:33:58.720 Uh let's say you you've got a sort of a loosey-goosey, you know, four or five field rotation that you run, you know, a longer type of rotation. 00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:00.799 And what happens if it's a drought? 00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:03.839 What happens if your dugout goes dry? 00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:15.599 And you know, like you've got to have a plan where you can quickly open a gate and you know, put the cows into the next field and and not use that system. 00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:34.079 And you've got to have a plan if you are stuck where you can, you know, you can market your animals, and this is where lots of guys do it is that they retain a herd of yearlings and they retain a herd of cows, and you know, the first thing to go are the yearlings if they run into a wreck, right? 00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:38.960 And that's just a common, common practice, you know, that I've seen lots of guys

do. 00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:42.239 So that's perfect, thank you. 00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:43.360 Adaptable. 00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:48.320 Um back to you, and and I'm gonna circle back to this from a risk management perspective. 00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:59.679 And we talked about the prescribed burns in those in those mountain ranges to draw uh the herds uh to those areas and and that fresh regrowth on grass. 00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:04.400 It wasn't just one spot, presumably, where that had happened. 00:35:04.480 --> 00:35:12.400 There would be multiple um prescribed burn sites, cultural, I think you called them cultural burn sites. 00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:21.679 Um and then there would be an evaluation of that, and then wherever the the bird went is is where the community would follow. 00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:29.199 Or how did how was that risk management thought process built in uh to that to that medicine framework? 00:35:29.679 --> 00:35:34.960 So yeah, historically they would uh like uh Blackfoot people would burn. 00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:43.199 So um the timing, so like if they were burning in the spring, it was to attract bison in the fall, right? 00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:49.519 Or vice versa, if they're burning in the fall, winter, it was to attract bison in the spring. 00:35:49.599 --> 00:36:04.400 So that would kind of determine how they would move uh their kind of their route for their seasonal round, and then that would ensure that um the community knew where their food source was, right? 00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:12.559 Like we highly depended on bison to uh survive in this uh uh in Blackfoot territory. 00:36:12.880 --> 00:36:22.960 And then as we moved and the plants ripened, we we kind of followed the the maturation of plants, right? 00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:35.760 And then as the plants kind of uh the later season plants matured, we would move back towards the towards the mountains for our our winter camp. 00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:54.320 So uh understanding the how how the plants grew and how they matured, and uh understanding the timing of all that, and then understanding the uh when bison were calving or when bulls were in rut. 00:36:54.639 --> 00:37:05.920 So that really helped kind of uh that how we managed herds, I guess, from that that historical um Blackfoot lens. 00:37:06.480 --> 00:38:04.239 And then in today, today's age, like uh there's so many different uh boundaries, I guess, from fences or jurisdictions, and understanding how we could work with one another and be collaborative in doing these type of burns, uh, inviting your neighbors to uh either take part or witness or just letting them know um what what's happening uh so that they they don't be get into a panic when they see smoke or when they see flames, and uh once they see the success of it, or it might even spark a memory in their in their mind, and uh when their grandparents used to burn on the landscape, or their parents used to burn, and um you might get some stories from that

and knowledge from that. 00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:17.599 So um really trying to be collaborative in how you reintroduce burns and areas and uh kind of uh educate people and create that awareness. 00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:41.599 So um when when there are these types of burns, whether it's a cultural or prescribed burn on the landscape, there's uh uh prairie uh uh the prairie prescribed fire exchange group um out of Saskatchewan and Manitoba, they are uh doing a lot of burns in the spring and the fall. 00:38:41.760 --> 00:39:15.599 And so as those type of groups as well as uh tribal nations are getting fire and that relationship uh back into the ecosystem, it's really important to uh uh reach out to your neighbor and uh give them that option to participate or give them that option to uh express their concerns so that you could ease those concerns from a fire fire lens and then just uh understanding how your plants respond. 00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:22.000 So the timing, like I mentioned, uh when do you when do you actually apply fire? 00:39:22.239 --> 00:39:25.760 Uh and then when do you actually like shut down, right? 00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:50.559 Like so understanding uh nesting seasons and all that, so that you're um you're not harming the ecosystem, you're actually uh elevating it and you're creating that biodiversity and enhancement for uh all species, whether it's insects or um your birds or mammals or even humans. 00:39:50.800 --> 00:40:01.360 So ensuring that you're thinking from that holistic lens and how uh how you could use utilize fire to enhance for everything. 00:40:01.599 --> 00:40:08.480 Um like even taking into consideration when when bees are are uh coming out. 00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:13.760 So um you really gotta think from that holistic lens when you're flying fire. 00:40:14.559 --> 00:40:28.960 I really like that notion of collaborative risk management and you know at the landscape level, including all the levels of uh of of living living things, ancestral or or otherwise. 00:40:29.199 --> 00:40:31.199 Um thank you for that, Alvin. 00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:39.599 Uh so you know, I want to keep the thought process rolling on on tools and then and then let the switch games just a little bit and talk. 00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:50.239 Um, because I think we've largely been talking about native rangelands so far, uh, to to to talk about how we can engage with some of our team uh forage acres. 00:40:50.480 --> 00:41:06.960 But in terms of the tools uh that you're using in BC, which you know primarily I think in a lot of cases is to manage risk, uh largely weather risk, either too much or too little, uh, depending on uh depending on the season and and the region you're dealing with in BC. 00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:14.159 And certainly over the last couple of years, we've seen some pretty devastating impacts of of some of some severe weather in BC. 00:41:14.239 --> 00:41:23.119 So some of the tools available for for a grazing uh grazing manager, uh some of them being deployed uh in BC from a risk management perspective. 00:41:27.119 --> 00:41:32.639 Yeah, so I think we do have some new tools kind of coming through. 00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:34.320 Well, quote unquote new. 00:41:34.480 --> 00:41:44.719 Um the BC Forage Council recently had the opportunity to work with our ministry uh and actually update our BC grazing management guide. 00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:53.199 Uh and it was like a lot of the core information was there, but a lot has changed since it was originally published 20 years ago. 00:41:53.360 --> 00:41:59.360 So uh it was great to work with the original author, uh Darren Brigell, and having him come and edit it. 00:41:59.440 --> 00:42:10.320 But working with uh a really great team of experienced grazers uh and and think about how do we put together a tool and some information to put that together. 00:42:10.400 --> 00:42:14.320 And that was just published uh about a month ago, actually. 00:42:14.480 --> 00:42:24.639 Uh so we have this really great new suite of talking about the guides and a lot of what Tom referenced about what goes into a good grazing management plan. 00:42:24.719 --> 00:42:38.320 Uh, and a lot of it is uh is I think talking about and thinking about monitoring and measuring what we're doing because we are seeing such great shifts, um, as you mentioned, Cedric, uh, in what we're dealing with day-to-day. 00:42:38.480 --> 00:42:44.800 I've been out in the field this past week and we're seeing like volumetric water content of 5%. 00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:51.519 Um we're talking about regions that haven't seen any level of precipitation for more than 60 days. 00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:55.199 Uh the last time was was snow. 00:42:55.360 --> 00:43:00.639 Uh in when we normally get springs that are so wet you can't get out into the field. 00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:07.360 So uh it shifts how you it has to shift how you manage it. 00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:12.719 I really uh both what Alvin and Tom are saying is is watching the land, watching what's going on. 00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:17.679 It can't be per it can't be a cookie cutter, just do this and foll follow the rules. 00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:19.199 You you have to adapt. 00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:27.280 And I think finding these tools that allow you to have that assessment um for what you are managing for. 00:43:27.440 --> 00:43:31.280 And and we do have different different ecosystems that we're looking at. 00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:38.239 Like you can think about these, these principles, uh, and you don't want to necessarily use those on native bunch grass. 00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:45.920 Um you might you might not be thinking about how can I come back here three or four times a year uh to get that grazing. 00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:49.679 It might be once a year, it might be once every three years. 00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:55.119 Um, but you have to have the tools uh to be able to go onto the land base and make those assessments. 00:43:55.360

--> 00:44:04.559 So um I mentioned a few of the ones that we use uh NBC and I'm sure are used more widely than that. 00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:07.280 And I think it is about pasture assessments. 00:44:07.360 --> 00:44:15.840 It is about being able to do a good detailed baseline assessment of what you're looking at and monitoring that. 00:44:16.320 --> 00:44:20.480 I also tend to do quite a bit of baseline assessments of soil. 00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:29.119 I sometimes forget and only talk about the plants, but I think it is about looking at your soil, the soil association that you're starting with. 00:44:29.679 --> 00:44:31.199 How did the soil develop? 00:44:31.360 --> 00:44:32.880 How is it classified? 00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:39.679 And how does that provide limitations and or opportunities of what can be happened in the future? 00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:43.519 Like, is the soil that when it's too wet, you should not be on it. 00:44:43.679 --> 00:44:48.400 Like you should, you shouldn't have vehicles, tractors, quads, livestock. 00:44:48.559 --> 00:44:51.840 Like you should, you should just be leaving it alone during those sensitive times. 00:44:52.000 --> 00:45:00.000 Um and making sure you're thinking about that and then and tracking that over time, looking at those trends, um, because these are resilient systems. 00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:18.880 Uh and the more integrated system that you can get, the more resilient they are, thinking about our range and our silvo pasture, um, and the large opportunity we have to really start thinking about how do we manage for timber, which a lot of BC is thinking about how are we managing for timber? 00:45:19.039 --> 00:45:22.320 Um, but how do we are also integrating that for our ungulates? 00:45:22.559 --> 00:45:30.159 Whether those ungulates are the moose and the elk, or those ungulates are are thinking about the cattle uh or even the smaller. 00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:33.679 I don't want to leave out our our sheep uh and our goats. 00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:39.199 Um I think we have like BC timbergoats where they are specifically going out and helping with those grazing. 00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:51.840 Um there's there's all these opportunities to think about how do we integrate that and then also think about um the other like native foraging we can do foraging the verb rather than the noun. 00:45:52.000 --> 00:46:03.039 Um obviously our our forests do provide a substantial amount of other foodstuffs, other cultural benefits um that we need to make sure that we're preserving and moving forward in the future. 00:46:03.280 --> 00:46:08.960 So I think finding opportunities to use these tools, these assessment tools. 00:46:09.199 --> 00:46:22.400 Um when we were writing the BC Grazing guide, we were trying to think about how how do we need to present this so that it can be adapted, that it's not considered a rule across all these different ecosystems. 00:46:22.559 --> 00:46:31.519 Um, and thinking about other tools like the grazing response index that can give you an in-season assessment uh of what does this look like? 00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:32.559 Should I be coming back? 00:46:32.719 --> 00:46:34.159 Should I be leaving it alone? 00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:44.239 Um, so there are going to be times where you might have to sacrifice some areas, but keeping those records, um, keeping that, well, no what I hit this pretty hard last year when we were in a tough spot. 00:46:44.320 --> 00:46:48.639 So I really shouldn't be coming back and hitting it twice in the same, like consecutively. 00:46:48.800 --> 00:47:03.679 I think those are I think that those are how we uh I'm thinking about how do we integrate these these bigger tools, these assessment tools, uh into the the day-to-day management, into those discussions uh so that we're keeping track of it and thinking of it moving forward. 00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:06.400 Thanks, uh Serena. 00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:16.239 And uh I see we are coming up close to time and then I've got two specific thoughts I I want to get through uh with each of you before before we come to a close. 00:47:16.400 --> 00:47:22.320 And I'll give you the last one so you can maybe ponder while you're listening to the answers of of the next. 00:47:22.639 --> 00:47:24.800 Um, what can we do better? 00:47:25.199 --> 00:47:28.239 What do we as an industry need to do to do better? 00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:38.559 Um whether it's us as practitioners supporting growers in the landscape, growers getting the job done there, is it uh you know, public or or private investment? 00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:40.159 What can we what can we do better? 00:47:40.239 --> 00:47:41.360 That's gonna be the last question. 00:47:41.440 --> 00:47:45.119 So I just want to give you that so you so you can prepare to to take us home. 00:47:45.280 --> 00:47:56.800 But I'm gonna switch the or or turn the the tables just a little bit because again, we've been talking a lot about native rangelands and and the tools that it that'll apply. 00:47:57.599 --> 00:48:03.760 Are those tools are those tools differently when we're thinking about tame species time? 00:48:04.400 --> 00:48:08.719 Um, or is it just uh being applied in a different context? 00:48:09.760 --> 00:48:19.920 Um I think what we need to do is understand the differences between you know native and tame species, or you know, I should say grasslands. 00:48:20.480 --> 00:48:41.039 Um you know, like I said, you know, you think about the native grasslands that have evolved over the last 10,000 years first, uh tame species that have been developed and created by plant breeders that that uh you know probably bred them up for one earlier grazing um and production. 00:48:41.360 --> 00:48:57.519 You know, so their let's say, for example, their their lignant content is probably higher, so less digestible later on in the fall, so typically uh you know uh less digestible and better used early on. 00:48:57.760 --> 00:49:06.559 So uh when you go to

manage the two, I think it's important that that you you actually recognize those differences. 00:49:06.800 --> 00:49:10.079 And another example is how long do they take to recover? 00:49:10.239 --> 00:49:22.559 When I was doing my master's, I was focused on tame species, and we were that's what I was actually looking at was the the length of recovery required by after after you grazed to to fully recover the plant. 00:49:22.719 --> 00:49:29.519 And um of course we were measuring in growing degree days, but I mean it worked out for some of the tame species. 00:49:29.599 --> 00:49:34.000 We were looking at 55 to 60 days recovery if it did regrow. 00:49:34.480 --> 00:49:46.719 My counterpart at the same time was looking at some native species, uh, and and he was he was looking at almost 400 plus days to recover. 00:49:46.880 --> 00:49:55.039 So that that implies right away that the length of rest that you're going to impose on these species is going to be completely different. 00:49:55.280 --> 00:49:58.480 And we have to be aware of that and and the system that you're applying. 00:49:58.639 --> 00:50:06.480 So in a native system, you're you're either looking at some sort of deferred rotation or a rest rotation of some sort. 00:50:06.800 --> 00:50:15.679 Uh, whereas the tame, you typically want to separate it from your native and and for the most part graze earlier. 00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:21.519 Uh, but there are some species that you know re-regrow in the fall. 00:50:21.760 --> 00:50:29.760 And and you've got to understand in southern Saskatchewan, too, uh, we are dealing with a growing season sometimes that is only like 60 days long. 00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:34.960 Uh, we you know, plants basically thrive at about 18 degrees Celsius. 00:50:35.119 --> 00:50:39.920 You get more than 25 degrees, or you get a lack of moisture, there's no growth. 00:50:40.719 --> 00:50:43.119 So you know, there's no regrowth, there's no growth. 00:50:43.440 --> 00:50:44.000 That kind of stuff. 00:50:44.159 --> 00:50:46.559 We have to deal in that kind of stuff. 00:50:46.960 --> 00:50:51.440 But, you know, so how you use it, when you use it is really important. 00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:56.880 But the other thing is you can actually these these species can become naturalized. 00:50:56.960 --> 00:51:11.039 And if you look at some of the pastures that were seeded, say back in the 30s, they've become naturalized now, but they're still tame species, and so you can almost treat them like a native system and manage them like a native system. 00:51:11.119 --> 00:51:14.480 And uh, and I've done this like myself on my own place. 00:51:15.280 --> 00:51:27.119 I I I actually tried seeding some native species, but it it got invaded with a bunch of tame species, and and I just didn't have the resources to you know be an eco-free can control it. 00:51:27.519 --> 00:51:39.679 But I do treat those almost like native, where I actually apply uh I apply uh at least one complete year of rest every year to each to one field. 00:51:39.840 --> 00:51:54.800 And so that I've got I've got a bunch of old growth in some of these, and I have a place to go to first thing in the spring, uh, where you know they got you got new growth coming among the old growth, so you have enough biomass to include and and it's responding actually quite well. 00:51:54.880 --> 00:52:19.039 So you can treat those, but I think that like I said, pay attention to rest recover, pay attention to season of use, and and probably try to manage them a little bit different because most forage speech or tame forage species, they're usually one or two species guys have seeded, but I'm seeing now you know sort of more of a polycrop influx and getting more and more species, almost more biodiversity. 00:52:19.119 --> 00:52:23.199 So you know, think what you're up against when you when you're doing these things, these things. 00:52:23.280 --> 00:52:24.159 So that makes sense. 00:52:25.039 --> 00:52:31.039 Well, fair and I know absolutely, and and and the word that keeps coming to mind here is is uh complementary. 00:52:31.280 --> 00:52:44.880 Um so using the two, the the native and and the tame uh within their own individual context, uh, where they can best suit your your production model and gives you that again, like flexibility of that risk management um component. 00:52:44.960 --> 00:52:58.719 And I think Serena Um EC is is probably a great place for this because pretty much we're uh we're we're managing the raisins and then we're bringing the cattle back down into the valleys, typically for winter. 00:52:58.880 --> 00:53:04.400 So we're growing tame species there in some cases, maybe even some some annuals uh to put in the bunk. 00:53:04.480 --> 00:53:11.920 Um so we're standing in the mountains and and then in the valleys on these tame spaces and in after the winter period. 00:53:12.079 --> 00:53:18.000 So again, compla complimentary, I guess, between the native and the tame species. 00:53:21.360 --> 00:53:23.599 Yeah, no, I think that's that's exactly it. 00:53:23.679 --> 00:53:26.239 We're and we're seeing everything shift, right? 00:53:26.400 --> 00:53:35.599 We're seeing um depending on where you are, uh, and the different assets that you have, I think um often we do. 00:53:35.679 --> 00:53:44.320 We we've in BC we've had uh a pretty good history of of utilizing the different landscapes and the challenges that are associated with them. 00:53:44.559 --> 00:53:49.599 Some pretty steep hills, some pretty difficult ground to to try to put in some infrastructure in. 00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:51.679 But I think it's essential. 00:53:51.760 --> 00:54:04.719 Um I think it's essential for our industry, our sector, uh to be thinking about these different systems and how how we best utilize them and how how do we sustain them moving forward. 00:54:04.880 --> 00:54:16.719 Uh, I think, and it all comes down to like really needing that in-depth understanding and respect um of the

nuances of of what you're working with and the landscape that you're working with. 00:54:17.039 --> 00:54:23.840 So yeah, just thinking about taking these tools, working and and and and the social piece. 00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:36.079 I think sometimes we forget about the social piece of things, and uh that's part of the fun that I have when I'm working one-on-one uh with producers is um what they enjoy doing out of it, um, what they get out of it. 00:54:36.239 --> 00:54:42.320 There's definitely a handful of folks that um would not want to see their cows every day. 00:54:42.719 --> 00:54:56.400 Um they they like the cropping part of it, they they manage the livestock uh throughout the winter, but when spring hits, they're very happy to see those butts moving out to ground range um so that they can just check on them periodically. 00:54:56.480 --> 00:55:05.679 And so those are situations where um you you don't want to be recommending or talking about very quick, intensive moves, half-day moves. 00:55:05.840 --> 00:55:07.679 Um, but there's an in-between. 00:55:07.760 --> 00:55:20.559 Um, and I think it is just thinking about um everything that we have learned um and and can about the ecosystem, about the science, about how the plants grow, um, and when we should be accessing them, when we should be leaving them alone. 00:55:20.719 --> 00:55:25.920 It's about the social piece of finding out what and maybe it's different people in the same operation. 00:55:26.079 --> 00:55:31.440 That guy's the cow guy, that this person's the the plant person, and obviously they need to work together. 00:55:31.599 --> 00:55:34.239 But uh and think about the opportunities that we see. 00:55:34.400 --> 00:55:45.360 We we're seeing some really great benefits of some of the investments in research that we've um we've had recently, the Living Labs, where we're looking at how does extended grazing seasons look like? 00:55:45.519 --> 00:55:50.159 How do we fit, how does how do annuals fit sustainably in this equation? 00:55:50.480 --> 00:55:55.199 How there we don't we we know the benefits of perennial. 00:55:55.360 --> 00:56:27.280 Um we we want to stay on on that perennial tame or native um rangeland kind of perspective, but there is a place for annuals that as you mentioned, Cedric, um, when we're looking at needing to say rejuvenate uh a field and thinking about the investment we've had with Living Labs and looking at how do these practices look, um we're thinking about growing corn at higher elevations, we're thinking about growing it uh higher uh higher up in more northern parts of our province, but how do we do that sustainably? 00:56:27.440 --> 00:56:32.480 Um how do we still um incorporate that in uh and and do it appropriately? 00:56:32.639 --> 00:56:39.440 So I think uh no producer, I've never met somebody who's confident that they're doing it wrong, right? 00:56:39.840 --> 00:56:43.840 Uh nobody is like, I know this is the worst way to do it, let's keep on doing it. 00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:48.719 Everyone's fairly, fairly in entrenched in in thinking that they're doing it right. 00:56:48.800 --> 00:57:04.400 And I I think there's no one best way, but I think it's having those conversations of what what is the goals, what is working, what's not working, uh, and and bringing them along that path, along that journey to figure out what sustainability is going to mean to them. 00:57:04.559 --> 00:57:13.840 Um, how can they make sure that they're can sit down at the bank and make those payments um while also being really confident that they can hand something off to that next generation. 00:57:13.920 --> 00:57:17.440 Uh they they ever that's the great thing about agriculture. 00:57:17.599 --> 00:57:24.320 Um that we're we're nobody's ever we're thinking about one season, but we're always thinking long-term. 00:57:24.400 --> 00:57:28.960 Um we we are family-oriented, we are generation-oriented, multi-generation oriented. 00:57:29.119 --> 00:58:00.320 We need to learn from each other the wisdom um of of the older generation, the excitement and new I don't want to say new ideas because often they're just recycled ideas, but the the excitement in the youth and the energy and the new technology of the younger ones, and finding ways where we can all work together uh and and monitor this and and move it forward, I think is is really what I'm seeing both in BC but but across Canada when we've been able to work with our provincial partners and and see what's happening um all across our landscape. 00:58:03.119 --> 00:58:03.840 Thanks, thanks. 00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:23.119 That's pretty visionable as chair of the CFGA as well as uh uh general manager of BC Forge Council, and really appreciate that that vision and and the need to measure and monitor um and and to use uh the the best best of both worlds being native and and tame species. 00:58:23.280 --> 00:58:36.159 So um I think throughout the hour and and uh if if my team was here with me in the studio, I'm sure that'd be uh seem sort of cane being reached out across the stage at this point to say you gotta wrap it up. 00:58:37.519 --> 00:58:41.039 Uh so just anticipating that coming, I I just want to move to to the final point. 00:58:41.119 --> 00:58:45.199 And and Alvin, I I wanna I want to start with you on this one. 00:58:46.000 --> 00:58:49.440 Uh what what can we do better? 00:58:49.599 --> 00:59:05.519 Um as as an industry, uh landhold land holders, landowners, uh practitioners that work with landowners, provincial federal, territorial governments, uh NGOs, ENGOs. 00:59:06.079 --> 00:59:14.320 What what can we do better and and how what can we adopt to ensure the future of of the grassland ecosystem in Canada? 00:59:15.519 --> 00:59:21.119 I guess uh uh just that collaboration, right? 00:59:21.199 --> 00:59:24.719 Uh coal management or working collaboratively. 00:59:24.960 --> 00:59:33.920 Um the treaties uh from a indigenous perspective was that we were

gonna share the land, right? 00:59:34.159 --> 00:59:55.599 So in Saskatchewan they have the treaty land share network, and that is really kind of ensured that uh indigenous nations are able to go and practice their way of life on public and private lands and do it safely, right? 00:59:55.840 --> 01:00:26.400 So um they're able to go and harvest their the plants that they need and uh harvest the animals that they they need, so being able to share the land and work uh work collaboratively so that our future generations can experience uh uh intact grassland that uh that has been here for since the world has been been shaped, right? 01:00:26.639 --> 01:00:35.519 So uh the importance of our grasslands uh being intact and remaining is is really important. 01:00:36.079 --> 01:00:45.920 So um trying to work together that so that we could protect these uh remaining tracts of native grasslands. 01:00:46.079 --> 01:01:45.039 And um I won't go into uh the tame stuff because I I view them as a threat to our native grasslands, and so just ensuring that our grasslands are here, that the uh cultural the cultural resources that are there and uh ecological goods and services are there so that our future generations could enjoy them uh collectively and that we're we're working together as a whole, as a society, so that we can continue to share these spaces and continue to ensure that uh biodiversity thrives and that we're able to uh um continue, continue our way of life, whether it's uh being uh a farmer or being a blackfoot person on the land. 01:01:45.199 --> 01:01:48.239 So just collaboration is key. 01:01:50.239 --> 01:01:51.679 Thank you for that, Alvin. 01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:53.760 Very very thoughtful. 01:01:54.079 --> 01:02:11.199 And uh I think you know the nature of that grassland ecosystem when when it's working well is that all the species within that ecosystem are working collaboratively to to maintain the grounds, and it's it's not not a one not a one-way equation there. 01:02:11.280 --> 01:02:13.599 So thank you for that for that word collaboration. 01:02:13.840 --> 01:02:14.800 We'll hold that tight. 01:02:15.119 --> 01:02:22.239 Serenan, uh, you're often asked to give the last word, so I'm not gonna uh give it to you this time. 01:02:22.320 --> 01:02:26.000 I'm gonna let you follow up with Alvin and and therefore Tom, you get the last word. 01:02:26.159 --> 01:02:32.960 But what do we need to do, Serena, um to get it more right? 01:02:33.280 --> 01:02:36.960 I think we're doing a lot of good things and there's been a lot of action. 01:02:37.039 --> 01:02:42.400 Um while there's there's been decades of good action, right? 01:02:42.639 --> 01:02:50.400 But we're still struggling to maintain uh this most precious um and endangered uh ecosystem. 01:02:50.559 --> 01:02:53.679 So um what can we what can we do better? 01:02:53.760 --> 01:02:57.519 What do we need to adapt to to ensure the future of these of these grasslands? 01:03:00.159 --> 01:03:02.960

Collaboration so was one of the first things I thought of. 01:03:03.039 --> 01:03:06.960 So I obviously everything that Alvin just expressed, I think is critical. 01:03:07.199 --> 01:03:26.159 Um I think just making sure that we continue to to find the opportunities to talk to each other, to work together, um to have a more unified voice so that we can be recognized um for the importance of these grasslands um and how at risk they are at. 01:03:26.639 --> 01:03:36.800 Um really we need to make make sure we continue to acknowledge the value, the immense value on so many fronts that they have uh to everybody. 01:03:37.039 --> 01:03:42.159 Um like it and it and how it it it crosses borders. 01:03:42.320 --> 01:03:46.880 I think like the health of the grasslands and the prairies will impact me here in Prince George. 01:03:47.119 --> 01:03:49.760 Um nature doesn't know those boundaries. 01:03:49.840 --> 01:03:52.880 We need all these systems to be functioning and working through that. 01:03:53.039 --> 01:04:00.239 So, yeah, collaboration came to mind, and I think we are seeing some pro we we there's so much hard work has gone in. 01:04:00.320 --> 01:04:02.320 We're starting to see some of that acknowledgement. 01:04:02.480 --> 01:04:13.599 It's the International Year of Rangeland and Pastoralists, and and we're just finding this really great like breath of fresh air to be able to like really acknowledge and celebrate this. 01:04:13.760 --> 01:04:36.239 But I think we need to take that momentum and make sure that we get committed continue investment uh in into this work that's being done, into the research, into the mapping, into the extension and the discussions so that we have the opportunity for these collaborative relationships to can to build and really see the success. 01:04:36.480 --> 01:04:41.280 I feel that we've lost quite a bit of capacity with some of the recent closures. 01:04:41.440 --> 01:04:58.159 Um, and I think we need to make sure that we don't forget to invest in our future practitioners, whether that's the land managers, the the people with boots on the ground, whether it's the training of future agrologists, agronomists, biologists. 01:04:58.320 --> 01:05:06.639 Uh, I think we need to make sure that we are holding space for them not just to survive, but we need to be thriving. 01:05:06.719 --> 01:05:08.639 Uh, we need to be protecting this land base. 01:05:08.880 --> 01:05:20.239 Uh, we need them to know that there's a secure future and that the really critical work that they are doing is appreciated and valued within our communities and our society. 01:05:20.400 --> 01:05:31.920 So I think that collaborative national, international approach to advance us, um, to keep us innovating, to keep us competitive is absolutely essential. 01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:48.400 Uh, and and finding however that looks, whatever system that needs to look like, like a a center, uh, a center of excellence, uh, something along those lines, but we can't be

withdrawing support at the very moment we're seeing this momentum, we're seeing these relationships build. 01:05:48.480 --> 01:05:50.400 We we need that continued investment. 01:05:55.199 --> 01:05:59.840 So that's and it uh makes me think about some of the work we've done at COG and. 01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:01.760 Building international collaborations. 01:06:02.000 --> 01:06:07.199 Uh went to the World Alfalfa Congress and have joined the international uh committee there. 01:06:07.280 --> 01:06:14.719 And we're planning to to send some folks to the International Grasslands Congress in Germany next next spring. 01:06:14.880 --> 01:06:19.519 So and and interesting, you know, some of the challenges we're seeing here. 01:06:19.840 --> 01:06:23.039 Um, you know, we heard that from from our global partners. 01:06:23.119 --> 01:06:32.880 They are they are feeling the same kind of tension in terms of loss of of uh of both tame and native rangelands uh around the globe. 01:06:36.239 --> 01:06:38.000 Right, celebrating those rangelands. 01:06:38.159 --> 01:06:43.360 So Tom don't make any regret giving you the last word on the story. 01:06:44.239 --> 01:06:46.079 You're gonna carry us, carry us home. 01:06:46.159 --> 01:06:51.199 But we've got two votes for collaboration and uh further investment and extension and support. 01:06:51.360 --> 01:07:00.880 So what uh what say you in terms of how we can adapt and what we need to do better to to try and save the extent of our of our grasslands count? 01:07:01.519 --> 01:07:01.840 Right. 01:07:02.400 --> 01:07:06.960 I totally agree with Serena and Elvin on on the points you just mentioned. 01:07:07.519 --> 01:07:14.239 I think one thing we need to do is we have to have a very clear vision of what we want these grasslands to look like. 01:07:14.559 --> 01:07:17.119 How much do we want to have in in the system? 01:07:17.280 --> 01:07:21.679 We're we're not going back to 300, 400 years ago. 01:07:22.000 --> 01:07:23.440 What do we want it to look like? 01:07:23.599 --> 01:07:26.480 Do we want it to be the 30 by 30 scenario? 01:07:26.719 --> 01:07:34.079 Do we want to have you know 25% you know perennial cover ecosystems in in our provinces? 01:07:34.320 --> 01:07:39.280 You know, we we've got to define that and we've got to set a deadline and a timeline to get there. 01:07:39.679 --> 01:07:44.000 And so that that that means that we have to do it as a community. 01:07:44.320 --> 01:07:51.360 And we talked about partnerships, but it's gotta be a community from the industry and and from the practitioners, uh, not just the government. 01:07:51.920 --> 01:07:54.320 We we've got to work to set those goals. 01:07:54.559 --> 01:08:00.239 And and that means that you know we we have to work on policy, policy changes. 01:08:00.320 --> 01:08:02.079 Let's get rid of the perverse incentives. 01:08:02.639 --> 01:08:19.119 Uh let's let's address our threats of of uh annual annual cropping expansion and urbanization, and how do we work with those communities to to uh you know retain and expand our our perennial ecosystems. 01:08:19.359 --> 01:08:41.039 If we're providing uh incentive programs or programs, let's focus on the goals of those individuals that manage the grasslands and and understand that what Elvin's goals are for the the Blackfoot are are completely different, what Tom's goals are for his his place. 01:08:41.439 --> 01:08:47.359 And we need to tailor those programs so that they they can address and and build flexibility into them. 01:08:47.520 --> 01:09:21.760 And um let's avoid regulation, let's build trust uh among agencies, and let's build, you know, we it's already been said, collaboration and create those true partnerships that eliminate the or identify the biases between the organizations and and and let's truly work together uh and and work on the commonalities that do exist and and towards that vision that we actually identified earlier on is what I think. 01:09:21.920 --> 01:09:26.640 So and I and I think and I truly believe we can do a better job of what we're doing right now. 01:09:27.039 --> 01:09:40.319 I see too many agencies holding the cards close to their chests and probably more concerned about uh propping up their organization versus actually managing the the the resource that's in front of us. 01:09:44.239 --> 01:09:45.600 What a place to end. 01:09:46.560 --> 01:09:48.800 Well said, thanks Tom for wrapping that up. 01:09:49.039 --> 01:09:53.600 So what I'm taking from that, uh as a collective, we've got collaboration. 01:09:53.760 --> 01:09:58.319 Uh Tom added in some goal setting, and we've all alluded to to partnerships. 01:09:58.399 --> 01:10:02.640 Uh and I think you said it well, Tom, it's not just about the public purse. 01:10:02.720 --> 01:10:14.399 You know, there's gotta be a role for industry here uh for that cash to come and and and what a what a wonderful three-way partnership with with the landowner uh to achieve these goals. 01:10:14.560 --> 01:10:17.760 So something we'll we'll add to our list to try and set some goals. 01:10:17.840 --> 01:10:27.920 So with a thank uh each, all three of you for being with us today, uh to give us this this hour and a quarter, your thoughts and insights. 01:10:28.079 --> 01:10:29.840 Uh it's uh it's been remarkable. 01:10:29.920 --> 01:10:31.600 And I just want to say thanks again. 01:10:31.760 --> 01:10:34.319 So with that, Suzanne, I'll turn it back over to you. 01:10:34.640 --> 01:10:36.399 Wow, what a conversation. 01:10:36.640 --> 01:10:41.439 Thank you, everyone, for joining us today and bringing a wide variety of perspectives to the table. 01:10:41.760 --> 01:10:43.520 And thank you for joining us. 01:10:43.760 --> 01:10:52.239 We hope you enjoyed this week's episode and the ongoing conversation around grasslands as we celebrate the International Year of Rangelands and Pastoralists. 01:10:52.800 --> 01:10:58.079 Special thanks to our guests and guest hosts today for their insightful and thoughtful conversations. 01:10:58.560 --> 01:11:01.600 Join us in two weeks when we unpack our next topic. 01:11:01.840 --> 01:11:10.399 Forage and Grasslands Unpacked is a podcast owned by the Canadian Forge and Grassland Association and our partners at the Grassland Learning and Knowledge Hub. 01:11:10.640 --> 01:11:17.279 Funding for this program is provided in part by Environment Climate Change Canada and Agriculture and Agrifood Canada. 01:11:18.159 --> 01:11:21.600 The show is produced by Kayleigh Healy and myself, Susan Wagner. 01:11:22.399 --> 01:11:24.000 Until next time, have a great day.