النص الكامل لحلقة Modernizing grid strategy across New England with Damir Novosel and Chris Root

there is sometimes, I would say, a little bit more focus on markets, and now we need to have that balance between markets and reliability. 00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:56.000 So markets need to need markets needs to address reliability needs, as we just discussed. 00:04:56.240 --> 00:05:01.519 At the same time, I do want to emphasize it's wonderful now the state that we are in. 00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:17.759 I think we should all be very glad that our industry is growing, and then we have tremendous opportunities to help the industry and the society with uh load uh load growth and rural integration and so on to serve the needs. 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:24.639 So I think that's a very positive aspect that we sometimes uh don't forget to uh we forget to emphasize. 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:29.680 But then let's talk about affordability, because we're talking about investments and so on. 00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:37.920 So, firstly, you know, in the Northeast, uh there is lots of investment related to renewable generation and storage and so on. 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:45.360 And I do want to emphasize some of the aspects with renewable generation, they're a great source of energy, but how are we really managing this? 00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:49.360 Uh, we see which are the states that have highest prices in the country. 00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:55.120 This is actually California and some of the, I would say, Northeast states and so on. 00:05:55.279 --> 00:05:58.000 So let's now focus a little bit on California. 00:05:58.240 --> 00:06:05.040 Uh there was net zero metering has been introduced there a few years ago, uh, and some of the tax credits and so on. 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:05.839 What is the result? 00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:15.600 Result actually that uh uh poor people actually have to pay for each people putting the PVs and storage and so on. 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:21.040 And and those are some of the things that we as society and industry need to need to address. 00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:26.240 So that would be my overall perspective related to some of the changes in the industry. 00:06:34.560 --> 00:06:36.879 And that's a hot topic for sure these days. 00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:41.839 But as you said, can I can I can I just also add, if you don't mind, absolutely. 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:46.560 We we talked about renewables, but I didn't touch data centers. 00:06:47.040 --> 00:07:14.720 And I think I know there will be maybe not as many data centers, the large data centers in the Northeast, but I would be surprised if you would not have edge data centers, smaller data centers, they will be serving because there is some really important business in the Northeast that will have AI requirements and needs, and will have uh need some latency requirements that are need to be really, really short. 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:21.519 Uh so I want to emphasize the aspect now that is a big pushback against data centers. 00:07:22.720 --> 00:07:33.360 And it talks about uh we talk about

they are not creating jobs and they are using resources like space and water and so on. 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:37.600 But I would kind of uh look into this from different perspectives. 00:07:37.839 --> 00:07:43.759 They are bringing lots of money, and once you bring money to the economy, you create jobs. 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:59.439 So I think that's a little bit of lack of uh understanding how we can actually leverage and actually address affordability with data centers being willing to pay for building the grid and so on. 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:13.600 But then the question comes: should data centers just use their own generation, collocation, or is it more efficient to use connect to the grid and leverage the grid resources? 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:17.040 So, what is by the way better for the ratepayers? 00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:18.560 What do you guys think? 00:08:18.879 --> 00:08:33.600 I think it's better for the ratepayers to actually have data centers investing in the grid, and and it it's going to be better for data centers, it will be more cost effective, but it's also better for the ratepayers. 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:41.440 And you know, it's conferences like this, Demir, that we bring the stakeholders around the table and have this discussion and have this collaboration. 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:50.240 And as you said earlier, now is such an exciting time to be part of the electric power industry because there's so many things that are happening and so many great things. 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:53.759 And uh, Chris, you've lived in New England your entire life. 00:08:53.919 --> 00:09:03.919 Um, went to uh Northeastern University as a co-op student, uh, and then and then went on to work in the electric power industry for over 45 years. 00:09:04.159 --> 00:09:08.080 What have you seen as a local, as a New Englander? 00:09:08.240 --> 00:09:14.399 What have what are the changes and what are the challenges today that are happening um in New England from a local level? 00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:18.960 Because after all, D Tech Northeast will be a local event in Boston. 00:09:19.440 --> 00:09:27.360 Yeah, I mean, I go back to the days of the protests in front of the Seaburke nuclear power plant to to actually don't build it, right? 00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:38.559 And bankrupting the local company, Public Service New Hampshire, went bankrupt over the constant delays of getting a permit to uh to operate the nuclear plant. 00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:56.480 And then I've, you know, in in my long time standing as an executive and and and an observer of the New England uh grid, um, you know, I've seen like five nuclear plants, the first generation of five nuclear plants all uh be decommissioned in every state. 00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:12.240 On top of that, the transmission system has grown tremendously um to new generation sources, but they're all most of those that are left because the last remaining coal plant just turned off a year or so ago. 00:10:12.480 -->

00:10:17.679 And now all we're totally dependent on 60% of New England for uh gas. 00:10:17.840 --> 00:10:23.120 So 60% of the generation comes from gas to New England on four gas pipelines. 00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:23.679 That's it. 00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:31.120 So we don't, so we're really tied to gas, and we just don't have a lot of gas capacity in the wintertime. 00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:34.639 So I remember starting out that nobody worried about the wintertime. 00:10:34.720 --> 00:10:39.440 Everything was about the summertime and air conditioning, and that was always gonna be your peak. 00:10:39.600 --> 00:11:01.919 Well, now that's gonna flip around right now, and people are gonna be worried much more with the heat pumps and um lack of solar because of the sundown coming so early in the evening that we're all going back to worrying about the winter because the gas line gas pipelines have have uh capacity shortages, so some water the plants won't be able to run. 00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:11.279 So it's a whole different idea of how to run a power system uh today than it was years and years and years ago, right? 00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:22.960 And uh in New England we do have pump storage, and uh thank God we do, but that was designed for nuclear plants to in the middle of the night, they felt that the nuclear plants would overgenerate. 00:11:23.440 --> 00:11:29.440 They only had one speed and there wasn't enough load at night, so they built store um uh the pump storage. 00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:32.320 So they pumped that night and they ran it down the day. 00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:34.480 How do we run pump storage today? 00:11:34.720 --> 00:11:35.919 The exact opposite. 00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:43.600 We pump during the day with the solar, we pump it up, and then we run it down at night when all the solar is turned off. 00:11:44.720 --> 00:11:49.519 80% difference than 190 degree difference from what we originally thought. 00:11:49.600 --> 00:11:52.720 So the grid is very different, it's run very different. 00:11:53.120 --> 00:12:02.320 We now have transformers that regularly feed from distribution, distributed generation up into the transmission system, which we've never had before. 00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:05.120 What does that mean for our infrastructure? 00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:11.120 And the reality of it is I always felt that going one way is the same as going the other way. 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:12.000 It isn't true. 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:18.559 So there are issues that we're gonna see longer term about running the system differently than we designed it. 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:21.440 But so I'm really excited about the changes. 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:24.080 It's as an engineer, it's awesome. 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:26.799 All these great, great problems to solve. 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:28.320 So I'm quite excited about it. 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:34.080 So uh, and I'm excited to be at D Tech North Northeast to talk about our regional issues. 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:37.440 Suddenly running in both directions. 00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:38.240 You know what I mean? 00:12:38.320 --> 00:12:55.039 The rate pails are now called customers, and they're they're putting solar on their rooftops, plugging EVs in, increase in load, not only from AI and data centers, but also from electrification and these heat pumps that both of you have mentioned earlier. 00:12:55.360 --> 00:13:05.120 So um, Chris, um one of the things too that uh we're gonna get into in a little while is the workshop that you're helping to lead at DTech Northeast. 00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:15.679 But before we get into that, I want to circle back to a term that we often hear, and I'm gonna put this question over to Demair, and it's integrated resource planning, IRP for short. 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:23.360 Uh Damir, could you share with the audience a little bit what this is all about and what the term means, IRP? 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:24.399 Right. 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:29.440 Uh integrated resource planning is a well-established process for long-term planning. 00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:44.720 You know, we have overload uh overall load forecast that dictates generation resources portfolio, and we are using production cost modeling to identify how best to optimize where to put the generation, what and again, what's the portfolio generation, and so on. 00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:49.120 And then we identify the grid needs to serve this generation. 00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:50.960 But what has changed? 00:13:51.120 --> 00:13:53.840 I mean, can we just use the same process as before? 00:13:54.000 --> 00:14:00.559 What has changed is that we have renewable generation with so-called effective load carrying capabilities. 00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:07.759 So, what it means when the sun doesn't shine and uh wind doesn't blow, we don't have that generation available. 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:14.639 So that completely changes how we are managing the process, the IRP process itself. 00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:22.159 Then we have inverters uh address requiring the to address some of the dynamics we talked about already before. 00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:31.600 So now when we look into transmission reliability metrics, we are talking about uh for many, many years we are doing loss of load expectations. 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:37.759 That is one day in 10 years we can afford, you know, not to not to have the the serving the load. 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:44.320 And then we have n minus one, one element can can be out of service and will be still able to serve the load. 00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:51.519 What does it really mean now, these type of metrics, when you have solar and and you have wind and so on? 00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:56.240 It completely changes, and we we really have to change that process from that perspective. 00:14:56.480 --> 00:15:05.919 But then we also talk about how we are doing investments, investments in generation to have you know proper resource adequacy,

and investments in the grid. 00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:19.759 And we need to now look into this from the perspective of both transmission and distribution in an integrated fashion, because we have now resources behind the mirror. 00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:24.720 So, not just as the resources used to be just on the transmission side. 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:26.159 Now we have to address that. 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:30.240 We have the load that is significantly loaded behind the mirror. 00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:37.440 So all these things make it uh uh much more important to have the integrated plan. 00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:44.879 So uh some of the things that we do in transmission can be solved by addressing issues in distribution. 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:50.000 Some of the issues in distribution can be addressed with solving problems on the transmission. 00:15:50.159 --> 00:16:01.120 So you you really need to have the optimal investments, an optimal way of managing reliability and resilience is to start focusing on integrated planning. 00:16:01.279 --> 00:16:14.080 Uh but again, when we talk about planning, it's resource, and I guess I would say resource-squared, because it's not just the resource, it's the supply, for example, for for natural gas. 00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:20.320 Northeast has actually faced those types of challenges more than almost anybody else. 00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:27.840 I mean, Texas faced that during the URI, and and that that's a really, really still big issue in the in the Northeast. 00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:39.120 So resource squared, TND planning and operations, in addition, because we need to connect planning and operations closer, because planning used to be 10 to 15 years. 00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:40.080 How can we plan? 00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:45.200 With data center comes in 24 months, can we plan 10 to 15 years? 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:48.240 We really have to be much, much faster in planning. 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:54.559 And what one of the issues here is really that the regulatory framework is sometimes not designed to address that. 00:16:54.639 --> 00:17:09.119 We have FERCs and states, and actually, once I was told, you shall not say integrated TND planning because then FERC will be upset or states will be upset because they have such a borderline in between. 00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:12.160 And I'm saying, are we serving consumers? 00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:14.160 Who are we serving here? 00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:18.319 And if you want to serve consumers, we need to be more integrated. 00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:29.119 And I know like NERC, NERC is now actually uh working towards making uh the data centers uh uh uh registered entities. 00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:34.799 And again, that's going to be a big issue now going in the next next few months, how it's going to be happening. 00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:42.640 But as you can see, load is become registered entity, and and its NURC jurisdiction is, of course, at the transmission level. 00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:47.519 But so so how it's all going to be managed is going to be very interesting going forward. 00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:51.839 And that's why we need to change some of the regulatory constructs to manage it. 00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:55.200 At the same time, we need processes and tools. 00:17:55.359 --> 00:17:58.000 It's really not easy for the utilities to manage it. 00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:01.599 There are really no tools, no processes to do it right. 00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:05.359 So we need to start stepwise to be able to manage it right. 00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:11.119 And uh speaking of the transmission system, though, um, Chris, you've spent a long time in transmission. 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:16.799 Uh, most recently as the chief operating officer at Velco in Chowja there transmission system. 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:19.920 Um, that's the backbone of the grid, right? 00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:25.039 It's really uh the backbone of our whole system. 00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:29.839 What do you think are some of the challenges that our transmission system is facing? 00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:34.720 Like up on something that Demir said, because he's he's dead on in this. 00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:42.880 Transmission planning has radically changed since I was a transmission planner back in 1983. 00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:53.200 I mean, we do we used to do studies, one in the summer peak and one in the winter peak, and one in the like uh fall or spring when the low low peaks. 00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:56.160 That you did three studies that covered you for a year. 00:18:56.400 --> 00:19:16.079 Now, as Demir is pointing out, the intermittency of a large, you know, 10% of the renewables in New England makes you almost have to do your load flow studies on an hour-by-hour basis in trying to see what happens when clouds are in certain areas, right? 00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:18.400 And assuming that generation disappears. 00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:20.480 And it's a whole different thing. 00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:32.319 Now, that is more what like an operational load flow would be doing, looking at those types of scenarios, but the transmission planners now have to do that and look out in the future. 00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:40.319 And I would just say two years ago, nobody was planning for you know 1,000 megawatt data centers to be plopped down someplace. 00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:46.799 And if you think about that, and I don't think in New England we're gonna see that size because I don't think we have the excess capacity to serve it. 00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:57.279 But if you have several, you know, three 300 megawatt ones get plopped out, they'd be and by the way, each one of them be the biggest load in all of New England, number one. 00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:01.680 Number number two, what happens if all three of them trip off at once? 00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:11.039 Oh my God, that's loss of of all that load, and you we have issues with over frequency that we really

haven't dealt with in the past. 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:18.240 And at the same time, you know, those type of big loads can be built in 24 months. 00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:20.799 We it takes us a year to study it. 00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:31.680 And then the idea of building transmission in New England, which could take seven years, is gonna be a big deal, or we're going to put it underground, which is gonna cost a lot of money. 00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:33.839 And then the real question is who pays? 00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:41.279 And in the past, like in Virginia, those costs were being passed on to customers, not the data centers. 00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:42.960 I don't think that would fly now. 00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:47.279 I think this, you know, that you're gonna have to allocate it back to those large customers. 00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:50.880 But remember, utilities have an obligation to serve. 00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:56.720 In each one of the six states in New England, by law, you can't say no to them. 00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:01.839 You can tell them how long it will take you and how much it will cost, but you can't say no, right? 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:09.039 And they can choose not to come there based on your first two answers, those two questions, but you can't say no, we're not gonna do it. 00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:14.559 So the regulations have not caught up with the actual what's going on. 00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:18.559 And the market, the market, markets react. 00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:24.000 They don't do a good job in predicting, and they don't do a good job in planning in the future. 00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:29.759 So so we're we've caught ourselves that we're gonna get close to having capacity shortages. 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:31.440 Then you have a large max. 00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:40.960 And when you look at the um queue for generation at Iceland, it's mostly made up with renewables in storage. 00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:43.519 Storage is great. 00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:44.559 I love story storage. 00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:46.480 There's a lot you can do with storage kind of fun. 00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:52.400 But once the storage is drained and you're in a deficiency, you cannot charge, you can't, you can't fill it back up. 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:53.279 You can't do it. 00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:56.160 You don't have the capacity to do that and serve the load. 00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:57.839 So it's a one shot deal. 00:21:57.920 --> 00:21:59.680 It's not gonna get you out, get you out of trouble. 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:03.920 For maybe four hours, and then you're right back into trouble. 00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:12.240 So, so we have to figure out this whole storage, renewable, and add some generation in here somehow. 00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:15.359 So there's a lot of challenges, and it's kind of fun. 00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:20.400 Uh, it's exciting, but it's changing our whole thinking of time frames. 00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:25.039 All the long-term studies get are

like it went out the window with data centers. 00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:26.160 So for sure. 00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:28.160 The whole model has changed, for sure. 00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:32.960 And now we're gonna get into um the workshop in just a moment, talking a little bit about that. 00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:39.039 It's gonna involve Eversource, um, which is our utility post, by the way, for DTech Northeast. 00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:42.960 Uh, it's also gonna involve ISO New England and Exilon. 00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:49.519 But but before we do that, Damir, uh, you touched along a little while ago, uh, resiliency and reliability. 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:56.319 Uh, two words that we often hear use interchangeably, but they mean they have two very different meanings. 00:22:56.559 --> 00:23:03.759 Um, could you talk a little bit about um why grid resiliency continues to be a hot topic in our in our industry? 00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:06.880 Yeah, I think it's a good point, uh, Wayne. 00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:10.960 In the past, we didn't have as much focus on resilience. 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:14.480 And in the last few years, it became a really big issue. 00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:19.680 And uh we can explain, I think, why uh this is the case. 00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:28.720 Firstly, reliability and resilience investments in in both and initiatives can sometimes complement each other. 00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:30.319 Let's say system hardening. 00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:33.680 If you do this, you can help both reliability resilience. 00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:35.920 But the priorities may be different. 00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:37.680 Example, wildfire. 00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:44.640 If you focus lots of your investments on wildfire, it may actually happen that your reliability goes down. 00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:45.279 Wow. 00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:50.240 So these are the I think big issues now to address in the industry. 00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:59.039 And it also depends, especially, I think in the Northeast is the issue what is really need to be required investment in resilience. 00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:06.240 So so because sometimes the resilience and reliability can actually work against each other, like on the reclosing. 00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:15.119 If you have some of the wildfire risks, if you do reclosing, you know, it may create some of the additional risks for the wildfire, so you don't want to do it and so on. 00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:21.359 So to summarize, reliability is a system measure, and we have very well-defined metrics. 00:24:21.519 --> 00:24:25.039 Say it is saying if it's focusing really on blue sky days. 00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:42.079 Now, on the resilience is a system characteristic that is addressing gray and black sky days when you have some of the hurricanes and and and weather-related issues like snowstorms and so on, but it's also addressing the complete recovery process. 00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:57.839 So the the issue is now or or has been in the past, we talked about high impact low probability events, but now low probability events are becoming higher or high probability events, like hurricanes and so on. 00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:00.880 And we'll talk more about some of the other aspects. 00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:11.839 So that's why, with the regulatory construct and investments, understanding that you need to have metrics now that are addressing these types of issues are very important. 00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:19.279 But those metrics are very regional, they are very often functional, regulatory, and depend on the business drivers. 00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:31.039 So you really cannot have very simple industry metrics, but it doesn't prevent us from having metrics and make sure that we are improving how we are addressing resiliency in the grid. 00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:45.200 But I want to emphasize one to me very important aspect that is that understanding very often people say resilience is natural phenomena, like you know, hurricanes, snowstorms, and so on, wildfire and stuff like that. 00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:52.160 But we also man-made uh issues are here, cybersecurity, uh, physical attacks. 00:25:52.640 --> 00:26:01.119 And then we have also, I think I want to put emphasis on this one, is the system design, aging infrastructure, and human error. 00:26:01.359 --> 00:26:07.839 Because that's what leads very often to equipment tripping and also power system blackouts. 00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:24.480 So uh we were discussing actually not that long ago how uh risk of power system blackouts has increased with some of the things that we just discussed, you know, in on on this on this uh uh on this call. 00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:33.279 And uh what what's happening now is that we need to be very proactive with addressing some of those risks related to blackouts. 00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:42.000 So we need to make some of the investments in technologies, in grid infrastructure like Statcom, battery storage systems. 00:26:42.240 --> 00:27:01.440 We need to invest more in the in the sensors in the grid, into the synchronized measurements, uh AMI, uh drones, robots, and so on, implement some of the wider monitoring protection and control uh technologies and so on. 00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:07.039 And I do want to emphasize like in the Northeast, there's been lots of activities related to drones. 00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:27.680 So using drones and then using AI on top of it to make sure that we address some of these aging infrastructure issues, but also addressing weather-related issues and doing a uh faster response or recover from some of these uh weather-related events. 00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:31.039 That's a great segue into the next question, Dameir. 00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:33.200 Thanks very much regarding AI. 00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:36.400 Um, there's so much discussion these days about AI. 00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:57.759 We know that it's having a huge impact on the grid from a load perspective, from a data center

perspective, but utilities are also using AI in a lot of ways, and that will be covered during the Distributech Northeast in Boston, but also, I'm sure, covered as part of the utility workshop on November 2nd. 00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:00.640 And Chris, you're helping to lead that workshop. 00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:02.160 It's uh really going to be great. 00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:16.000 We have ISO New England speaking at the workshop, Eversource, which is our utility host, they will be speaking along with Exelon and and other companies, and including Dash, of course, will be there. 00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:22.079 Um, I'm really excited about hearing the presentations on AI from from Ani and from others. 00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:29.920 Um, what excites you most about this workshop, Chris, and from a from a local perspective and some of the topics that are gonna be covered? 00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:32.640 Oh, thanks for that, Wayne. 00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:42.319 I'm really excited to be going to a conference that allows to have interaction of all the participants in this workshop. 00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:56.319 This isn't just a a group of people on the stage that we will have panelists that are gonna have a presentation and they'll all we're gonna have those four people that you mentioned who will actually talk about what's going on in theirs. 00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:28.000 Then we're going to break up into four different uh smaller groups with all the people in the workshop are gonna choose which one of the four um places to go to to talk about everything from deep dives on core operational issues that's unique to New England, talk about regulatory alignment because everyone knows there isn't one regulator in the United States that's 51, right? 00:29:28.160 --> 00:29:32.960 So there's federal and then there's all 50 states, and they all have different ideas, right? 00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:37.200 So, so how do we talk about that with the policies that goes on? 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:42.880 Then we look at commercial and financing and risk sharing models, which important to the utilities. 00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:44.319 That's really, really important. 00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:48.400 How do, you know, we're all struggling with don't raise your cost. 00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:51.440 Well, the one option is to let your risk go up. 00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:53.119 Well, how do you manage your risk? 00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:55.359 It's important if you don't spend any more money. 00:29:55.440 --> 00:29:56.720 You're gonna take more risk. 00:29:56.880 --> 00:29:57.440 Guess what? 00:29:57.519 --> 00:30:00.640 Things don't stop aging just because you don't spend money on it, right? 00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:01.839 They still getting old. 00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:04.319 And and trees keep growing, unfortunately. 00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:06.400 So you have to figure out how to manage your risk. 00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:09.279 You do the fortunately, Chris. 00:30:09.519 --> 00:30:10.400 Excuse me. 00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:11.839 I like trees. 00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:20.480 But they never do. 00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:24.960 But all right, and then we're gonna also talk a little bit about emergent technology. 00:30:25.119 --> 00:30:26.960 And this is what you were getting with AI. 00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:38.480 One of the things that's happened over the last 15 years is that utilities gather more data, they're monitoring more pieces of equipment than ever before. 00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:44.559 We have PMUs that are measuring things at very fast um um sampling rates. 00:30:44.720 --> 00:30:48.559 We have relays that have great information inside them. 00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:51.519 And at this, you know, all even we have smart meters. 00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:54.799 And New England has a lot of smart meters in most of the states. 00:30:55.039 --> 00:30:59.279 So not all of them, but those smart meters generate huge amounts of data. 00:30:59.440 --> 00:31:01.440 So we're swimming in data. 00:31:01.599 --> 00:31:03.680 How can we analyze that data? 00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:16.160 That's where AI is going to be used to help us make better decisions, help the operators, you know, in identifying issues and um be able to deal with this massive data. 00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:22.000 I mean, you've got 15-minute interval data for millions of customers. 00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:23.440 That is a lot of data. 00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:32.079 But that data, if you can get into that and really look at that and analyze that data using AI, you're gonna find stuff that you had no idea existed. 00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:39.359 And on top of that, the distributed nature of generation, you don't know what's going on in distributions. 00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:43.519 You don't know what somebody, you know, Wade's culture stack is doing, right? 00:31:43.599 --> 00:31:48.880 On the voltage there, or what's going on with the solar when it's sunshine and a cloud comes over. 00:31:49.039 --> 00:31:49.759 You have no idea. 00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:52.319 No utility knows that, but it's in the meter. 00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:56.480 And if you can gather and look at that data and say, hey, this this neighborhood's got a problem. 00:31:56.559 --> 00:31:57.920 You better start looking at it. 00:31:58.079 --> 00:31:59.200 It's amazing. 00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:02.559 It opens up things that we could only imagine years ago. 00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:08.079 At the end of all those breakout sessions, everybody comes together and you get to hear what everyone said. 00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:09.839 So thick power. 00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:16.160 So though this large number of people are all gonna have inputs, and then it's going to be reflected back to you. 00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:18.400 We couldn't do a conference to do something like that. 00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:19.279 How do you do that? 00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:25.759 So you're gonna get all these inputs and ideas that are gonna be shared amongst all the

people that go there. 00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:29.200 And to me, that's the power of the workshop. 00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:30.720 Agreed. 00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:33.119 So I know we're running up on time here. 00:32:33.200 --> 00:32:36.880 So we've talked a lot about the the present and even made a connection with the past. 00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:43.680 But you know, if we talk about the future, if you guys peered into your crystal balls, you know, what is the future of the utility space look like? 00:32:43.839 --> 00:32:47.680 Um, you know, what's what's coming together in the next few years and beyond? 00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:49.119 And maybe Demir will start with you. 00:32:49.279 --> 00:32:49.599 Yeah. 00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:52.720 So so firstly, uh utilities. 00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:57.680 Um when we talk about AI, I need to I need to mention some of the topics on the AI. 00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:03.839 Um, AI will be used to address AI uh data center integration. 00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:06.480 We'll be using, or we are using actually. 00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:12.000 I'm going to say we will be, because we're already doing it, because we are making it much more efficient now. 00:33:12.079 --> 00:33:14.640 And and and Chris mentioned something that's very important. 00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:18.880 We have all this data, so we have sensors, but we need to automate the data. 00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:22.720 But then the key aspect of this is knowledge. 00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:27.839 Knowledge will be the key to leverage AI in the right way. 00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:35.119 Because we'll have the data, we'll automate, and then we'll have on top of this AI to analyze this data and so on. 00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:42.079 But how will AI analyze the data without hallucinations will be about the knowledge that we provide. 00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:44.079 And I think that that's very important. 00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:47.599 And that's why people are so worried about losing jobs and so on. 00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:48.640 And that is the case. 00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:53.839 I mean, lots of people lost jobs now with uh with some of the programmers and so on. 00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:54.480 We know that. 00:33:54.640 --> 00:33:58.400 That's that's that's really, really bad, and how it happened and so on. 00:33:58.720 --> 00:34:06.799 But we we have the history that when machines uh were invented, uh people were destroying machines because they would take their jobs. 00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:11.679 And when you think what happened after, actually, much more jobs were created because of the machines. 00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:17.519 So you you don't dig the hole with the spade now, but you have the machine that digs the hole. 00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:20.880 But think about who builds that machine, who operates the machine. 00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:24.159 And there are probably more jobs created now by doing that. 00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:26.800 And I'm just just using a very simple example. 00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:32.960 When when with computer technology coming up, you know, we were all thinking computers will make our life easier. 00:34:33.039 --> 00:34:39.119 We have Excel spreadsheet now, we don't have to actually do the manual calculation using the calculators and so on. 00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:39.840 What happened? 00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:49.599 We are actually busier than ever because we are now much more efficient, so we actually have more work, and so many more things have been happening, and many jobs have been created, and so on. 00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:57.679 So, of course, there is a dip, but then it will go a growth, especially in our, I want to emphasize Jeremiah, in our space. 00:34:58.400 --> 00:35:04.239 Engineers will be, and not just engineers, but control system operators, linemen. 00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:09.920 They are going to be extremely uh needed for the years to come. 00:35:10.079 --> 00:35:11.920 And where will innovation come from? 00:35:12.079 --> 00:35:19.840 Do we think that we feed the uh Claude and feed you know Chat GPT, and now we know everything. 00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:22.320 But human race innovates. 00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:23.920 And who is going to do it? 00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:27.920 I don't think AI will be innovating in that space. 00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:32.559 So that's the but I'm going to connect Jeremiah also with the power system. 00:35:33.199 --> 00:35:44.639 Because, you know, who we will need to see the growth of the use of uh electrical uh electricity, because electricity is the key source of energy for the future. 00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:46.559 I don't see any other source. 00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:51.760 Maybe in the future, I don't know, 10, 20 years, 30 years from now, there will be something be coming up. 00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:52.480 We don't know. 00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:53.920 We don't have a crystal ball. 00:35:54.159 --> 00:35:57.760 But for sure, electricity will be the key. 00:35:57.920 --> 00:35:59.840 Because we what's what's happening now? 00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:01.679 What sources of energy we are you? 00:36:02.559 --> 00:36:11.840 Every other source of energy is uh transferred into electrical, like solar, uh, like natural gas, wind, and so on. 00:36:12.239 --> 00:36:14.880 So it's going to continue uh doing this. 00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:21.199 At the same time, these sources of energy are not necessarily always close to where the customer is. 00:36:21.440 --> 00:36:32.400 I mean, wind blows in the Midwest, and you cannot really put nuclear plants in, let's say, in Boston and all, you know, so energy mix is the key. 00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:37.039 There will be changes, but the path is clear. 00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:49.519 We had again in the 19th century the grid was completely distributed, and then became connected because it became more efficient, more reliable, and prices went down. 00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:54.719 So now we have possibilities to be more distributed, and that's

wonderful. 00:36:55.119 --> 00:37:06.159 But there will be always the balance between distributed grid and the overall transmission grid that will be supporting the industry and the society. 00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:09.199 I mean, I think it speaks to there's there's nuances. 00:37:09.280 --> 00:37:17.679 We can talk about the the grid as in that in that very high level, but there are specifics and and needs different solutions for a given challenge. 00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:22.559 And what works in one region or what works for one utility isn't going to make sense elsewhere. 00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:31.519 But being able to get specific with that, that's why we have events like D Tech Northeast to get together, talk about what works, and allow folks to take that back. 00:37:31.679 --> 00:37:33.280 Uh Chris, what about what about you? 00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:36.159 What's uh what what what are you looking forward to? 00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:42.719 So I'm looking forward to solving you know the generation picture in the future. 00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:54.079 Um, I also am looking forward to all, there's gonna be a new whole set of problems that we are just coming to grips with from an engineering perspective. 00:37:54.320 --> 00:38:02.400 If you think about it, 50 years ago, there was no such thing as really, I mean, we had analog electronics, now we have everything's digital. 00:38:02.559 --> 00:38:04.719 Think about it, everything is digital. 00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:11.679 Computers, televisions, motors have uh variable speed drives on them, so they look electronic. 00:38:11.840 --> 00:38:13.039 Everything's electronic. 00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:16.159 And now we generate with electronics. 00:38:16.400 --> 00:38:19.679 We have we have you know inverters that are electronic. 00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:23.039 They're not putting out beautifully nice sine waves anymore, okay? 00:38:23.199 --> 00:38:24.880 I wish they would, but they don't. 00:38:25.039 --> 00:38:32.480 So you have all kinds of noisy, I call noisy voltage waveforms and current waveforms. 00:38:32.719 --> 00:38:34.960 And those can interact with each other. 00:38:35.119 --> 00:38:43.360 And we tried to do a very good job of modeling control systems and all that, but to be honest, we're we we are not doing a great job of this. 00:38:43.519 --> 00:38:45.119 It's going to create some issues. 00:38:45.280 --> 00:39:05.199 But there's a whole new area of study that's going to have to be done that's gonna have to measure with PMUs in other types of devices of what is going on, because there will be interactions between all of these devices, the loads as well as the generation. 00:39:05.360 --> 00:39:11.199 And it gets worse when you put a huge amount of computers all in one box, all in one place. 00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:18.960 I mean, just think about all the harmonics and all the stuff that gets generated from all those computers in one building, okay? 00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:23.599 So I'm not sure if I had

a sensitive load, I wouldn't be right next to them. 00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:26.639 But but those are all issues that uh the new problems. 00:39:26.719 --> 00:39:32.480 And at the same time, how can we build new transmission and new facilities faster? 00:39:32.719 --> 00:39:35.360 We need to get innovative on how to do that. 00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:48.400 And I'm not sure we know all the answers, but there's a number of different things that are gonna emerge about how we get more in Tamir's 100% right, the most efficient transportation of energy. 00:39:48.559 --> 00:39:49.440 That's what we're doing. 00:39:49.519 --> 00:39:54.400 We're transporting energy from what source to another place to be used. 00:39:54.639 --> 00:39:58.800 The most efficient way to do that is with electric electricity, okay? 00:39:58.960 --> 00:39:59.599 That's what it is. 00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:01.599 It's a transport mechanism. 00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:04.880 And it's very efficient and very reliable, okay? 00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:07.119 So we have a lot of redundancy built into it. 00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:08.320 It's very, very important. 00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:11.440 But we have to make sure that that stays that way. 00:40:11.519 --> 00:40:14.239 And I think those are going to be our challenges in the future. 00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:24.719 And it speaks to these challenges not being simple ones to solve, but it also can make it fun ones to solve because there is no there's no silver bullet solution to any of it. 00:40:24.800 --> 00:40:27.039 Uh, Wayne, go over to you for a final word. 00:40:27.519 --> 00:40:36.320 So I'm sure these challenges, uh, Chris and Damir, that you just talked about, will be discussed at DTEC Northeast on November 2nd through the 4th. 00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:39.280 Very much looking forward to it, as mentioned. 00:40:39.440 --> 00:40:43.199 Uh, there's so many challenges these days in the electric power industry. 00:40:43.360 --> 00:40:46.960 We talked about the data center, load growth, electrification. 00:40:47.119 --> 00:41:04.239 We talked about affordability, the uh pressing need to have a more resilient and reliable grid, um, not to mention the extreme weather we have uh coming and the weeds uh testing that reliability and uh grid hardening. 00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:11.599 Um, as we uh talk on this call, we're expecting a Nor'easter coming up in New England uh this weekend. 00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:14.079 So uh lots, lots happening. 00:41:14.239 --> 00:41:38.960 But very much looking forward to having these discussions, and that's why Clarion Events has these types of events, and this one is a very unique one, Deep Tech Northeast, to bring all the stakeholders around the table to have that open collaboration and discussion because it's only if we work together that we can solve these very complex and challenging issues for our great industry. 00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:46.719 Jeremiah, I want to thank you uh for having us and and thank Chris and Jamaic as well for joining this conversation. 00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:49.440 See you November 2nd through 4th.