النص الكامل لحلقة Deborah Kobylt LIVE: Deb Spera - Author, "Call Your Daughter Home"

said to her, oh, just stay home and raise your kids. 44 00:01:41.620 --> 00:01:43.840 That didn't sit well by her. So by the time 45 00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:46.219 I got around, it was like, you're pregnant? No problem. 46 00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:49.349 How much time do you need off? So a lot's changed, 47 00:01:49.670 --> 00:01:51.409 you know, and then look at you. You were able 48 00:01:51.469 --> 00:01:52.409 to job share. 49 00:01:52.489 --> 00:01:54.709 And help, you know, it was good to be home 50 00:01:54.790 --> 00:01:57.730 some to raise my children, but I definitely needed a career. 51 00:01:58.079 --> 00:02:00.799 But I also didn't want to miss them as little. 52 00:02:00.859 --> 00:02:01.540 So important. 53 00:02:01.560 --> 00:02:01.780 Yeah. 54 00:02:02.040 --> 00:02:04.459 You know, now it's so much more prevalent. So what 55 00:02:04.500 --> 00:02:05.980 are some of the films that you got off the 56 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:07.040 ground there? Oh, my goodness. 57 00:02:07.379 --> 00:02:10.099 The Baby Dance that Jodie Foster and Meg LeFauve produced, 58 00:02:10.469 --> 00:02:14.810 Jane Anderson's first film she directed, and she wrote that. 10,000 59 00:02:14.810 --> 00:02:18.409 Black Men Named George, Blind Justice. I did a remake 60 00:02:18.449 --> 00:02:20.750 of 12 Angry Men that William Friedkin directed, and I 61 00:02:21.349 --> 00:02:24.469 worked twice with Jack Lemmon and George C. Scott and 62 00:02:24.590 --> 00:02:28.370 Armand Mueller Stahl. I mean, it was James Gandolfini. It 63 00:02:28.409 --> 00:02:29.530 was one of the first things he did. 64 00:02:29.569 --> 00:02:31.419 Oh, yeah. Love and miss him. 65 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:34.680 I did so many things. It was a really special 66 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:35.599 time in my life. 67 00:02:36.120 --> 00:02:37.199 You were born in Kentucky. 68 00:02:37.319 --> 00:02:37.620 I was. 69 00:02:38.020 --> 00:02:42.699 Your parents were 16 and 19. That's really young. 70 00:02:42.759 --> 00:02:43.259 Very young. 71 00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:45.020 They were like your siblings, essentially. 72 00:02:45.060 --> 00:02:47.780 Yeah. The doctor handed me to my mother and said, okay, 73 00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:51.699 you guys are going to grow up together. And we did. Wow. 74 00:02:51.740 --> 00:02:53.759 What was it like growing up in Kentucky with such 75 00:02:53.810 --> 00:02:54.490 young parents? 76 00:02:54.780 --> 00:02:59.169 Um, The positive was that my parents were both very 77 00:02:59.250 --> 00:03:04.629 liberal and very big believers in equality for everyone and 78 00:03:04.689 --> 00:03:08.409 took us to peace rallies, and they were very staunch 79 00:03:08.469 --> 00:03:11.699 about that. The tough part was they were really young, 80 00:03:11.759 --> 00:03:14.620 and they were thrust into roles that neither of them 81 00:03:14.639 --> 00:03:18.360 were prepared for and neither of them were really happy about. 82 00:03:18.419 --> 00:03:19.719 So that was the hard part. 83 00:03:20.629 --> 00:03:22.469 Oh, I can't imagine. A lot of people end up 84 00:03:22.509 --> 00:03:25.110 with kids much older than that, and they're not even prepared. 85 00:03:25.150 --> 00:03:26.569 But imagine being a kid yourself. 86 00:03:26.879 --> 00:03:29.960 Yeah. My grandmother had a huge hand in helping raise me, 87 00:03:30.439 --> 00:03:32.099 whom I call Mamaw. Right. 88 00:03:32.379 --> 00:03:34.439 And this book that you wrote, which we'll get into 89 00:03:34.460 --> 00:03:37.759 in a bit, was very much inspired by your grandmother 90 00:03:38.039 --> 00:03:39.120 and your great-grandmother. 91 00:03:39.159 --> 00:03:39.300 Yep. 92 00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:42.030 And you almost ended up with five generations because everyone 93 00:03:42.050 --> 00:03:44.689 was so young, but it was your great-grandmother who passed 94 00:03:44.789 --> 00:03:46.550 just before your daughter was born, you say. Correct. 95 00:03:46.849 --> 00:03:46.990 Yeah. 96 00:03:47.030 --> 00:03:47.830 That's amazing. 97 00:03:47.889 --> 00:03:48.069 Yeah. 98 00:03:48.449 --> 00:03:51.080 In my family, there are so many years between all 99 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:54.569 of us. My mother had me late in her 40s, 100 00:03:54.599 --> 00:03:56.150 which was impossible. 101 00:03:56.169 --> 00:03:56.860 Wow. Right. 102 00:03:56.900 --> 00:03:58.629 By the time I, I mean, that was just not her. 103 00:03:58.639 --> 00:03:59.599 You were surprised. 104 00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:03.719 I think I was. So they say, I'm not sure. She, 105 00:04:03.800 --> 00:04:06.919 she remembers very clearly the night of conception. I'm like, okay, 106 00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:08.990 thank you. But, um, and she said she went to the, 107 00:04:09.400 --> 00:04:11.020 to the doctor and said, I think I have a 108 00:04:11.060 --> 00:04:14.490 stomach tumor. And he goes, that tumor is breathing. So, um, yeah. 109 00:04:14.530 --> 00:04:16.589 And then in between her and her mom were many, 110 00:04:16.629 --> 00:04:19.329 many years. So it was like three generations over like 111 00:04:19.410 --> 00:04:22.129 a hundred years. It was crazy. And you've got five 112 00:04:22.189 --> 00:04:24.170 generations with like 16 years apart. 113 00:04:24.189 --> 00:04:24.449 Yeah. 114 00:04:24.610 --> 00:04:25.089 Incredible. 115 00:04:25.129 --> 00:04:25.269 Yeah. 116 00:04:26.029 --> 00:04:29.250 Um, so growing up in Kentucky, you wanted to get 117 00:04:29.310 --> 00:04:31.550 out of there sort of, not because of Kentucky, but you, 118 00:04:31.629 --> 00:04:34.029 you had a creative way about you. 119 00:04:34.069 --> 00:04:38.790 Well, I really, as a child, I read incessantly and 120 00:04:38.910 --> 00:04:41.920 in some ways, perhaps it was my escape from growing 121 00:04:41.949 --> 00:04:44.360 up in a little bit of turmoil, but I, I 122 00:04:44.939 --> 00:04:47.600 knew the world was bigger and I wanted to experience 123 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:51.279 a bigger part of the world. And I

felt like 124 00:04:51.319 --> 00:04:55.579 I belonged in the world. And, um, and I, Kentucky 125 00:04:55.620 --> 00:04:57.579 wasn't giving me that. There was a real lack of 126 00:04:57.620 --> 00:05:00.500 diversity where I grew up, and there was a lot 127 00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:04.170 of turmoil where I grew up, civil rights turmoil. In 1977, 128 00:05:04.170 --> 00:05:08.389 when busing was passed, the people in my community rioted. 129 00:05:08.410 --> 00:05:10.990 They wanted nothing with it. 130 00:05:11.009 --> 00:05:14.310 The KKK marched down the street every night the summer 131 00:05:14.329 --> 00:05:17.639 of 1977. So I witnessed all that, and I didn't 132 00:05:17.740 --> 00:05:19.680 want to be a part of all that, and I 133 00:05:20.540 --> 00:05:21.839 wanted to get out. I wanted to be a part 134 00:05:21.879 --> 00:05:22.259 of the world. 135 00:05:22.540 --> 00:05:23.420 What did your parents say? 136 00:05:24.060 --> 00:05:24.829 They encouraged it. 137 00:05:24.980 --> 00:05:27.189 Yeah. Go. So where, you went to New York. 138 00:05:27.230 --> 00:05:29.480 I went to New York. Scared to death. Never seen it. 139 00:05:29.529 --> 00:05:32.129 Never been there before. Only saw in pictures and in movies. 140 00:05:32.149 --> 00:05:33.410 How'd you get there? Did you like get on a 141 00:05:33.430 --> 00:05:35.129 bus and go like everybody else? 142 00:05:35.250 --> 00:05:38.029 I had $ 600 and I, no, I got on an 143 00:05:38.089 --> 00:05:40.740 airplane one way and I left. I had these, I 144 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:43.920 don't know if you remember jelly sandals, these plastic sandals. 145 00:05:44.019 --> 00:05:44.699 Oh, they were cool. 146 00:05:44.939 --> 00:05:47.439 Yeah. It was summertime and I, and I wore those 147 00:05:47.500 --> 00:05:49.199 and I remember walking around the city and they just 148 00:05:49.379 --> 00:05:51.579 ate my feet. You know, I didn't, and I, and 149 00:05:51.620 --> 00:05:54.689 I was so It was such culture shock for me 150 00:05:54.750 --> 00:05:57.709 because New York was such a diverse place and I 151 00:05:57.750 --> 00:06:00.040 had not grown up in any. Oh, it was amazing. 152 00:06:00.060 --> 00:06:01.439 It was amazing. Wow. 153 00:06:01.459 --> 00:06:05.639 The food and the people and the chaos, which, you know, 154 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:09.079 as a girl from Kentucky, chaos was a little bit frightening, 155 00:06:09.259 --> 00:06:10.519 but I learned a lot. 156 00:06:11.100 --> 00:06:12.980 It's such a beautiful place. I mean, I'm from back 157 00:06:13.060 --> 00:06:14.750 East and I love New York. It'll always be my 158 00:06:14.810 --> 00:06:17.439 favorite city no matter where I travel. I love it. 159 00:06:17.490 --> 00:06:20.120 It's very diverse and There's always something going on. You're 160 00:06:20.139 --> 00:06:22.350 right about the food, about the theater, which I know 161 00:06:22.389 --> 00:06:23.829 that you did theater when you were in New York. 162 00:06:23.889 --> 00:06:24.470 Tell me about that. 163 00:06:24.970 --> 00:06:28.730 Well, when I was growing up, the only thing I 164 00:06:28.769 --> 00:06:31.029 could think to do that was in the entertainment industry 165 00:06:31.069 --> 00:06:33.629 because I didn't know about the other jobs was be 166 00:06:33.649 --> 00:06:36.160 an actor. So I studied theater in college and then. 167 00:06:36.579 --> 00:06:38.399 After college, I went to the Actors Theater of Louisville, 168 00:06:38.420 --> 00:06:40.060 where I was an acting apprentice and where I met 169 00:06:40.110 --> 00:06:40.579 my husband. 170 00:06:40.730 --> 00:06:41.949 And you worked with Bill Esper? 171 00:06:42.370 --> 00:06:44.230 I studied with Bill Esper when I moved to New 172 00:06:44.269 --> 00:06:47.189 York for two years, and he was a remarkable teacher. 173 00:06:47.209 --> 00:06:50.870 Phenomenal, because I told you I knew him from Rutgers University. 174 00:06:50.910 --> 00:06:51.129 Yeah. 175 00:06:51.389 --> 00:06:53.269 And I have friends who studied under him. 176 00:06:53.430 --> 00:06:53.610 Yeah. 177 00:06:53.970 --> 00:06:55.189 Absolutely fantastic. 178 00:06:55.290 --> 00:07:00.699 I mean, he was a remarkable man and teacher. He 179 00:07:01.079 --> 00:07:04.819 has a legacy. Yeah, very much so. And I did 180 00:07:04.860 --> 00:07:07.319 theater in L.A. I mean, in New York, rather. And 181 00:07:07.339 --> 00:07:10.220 then when I moved to L.A., I moved here as 182 00:07:10.259 --> 00:07:11.769 an actor, and I got tired of being told I 183 00:07:11.790 --> 00:07:13.589 was too tall, too short, too fat, too thin, too pretty, 184 00:07:13.649 --> 00:07:14.209 not pretty enough. 185 00:07:14.389 --> 00:07:17.610 Too everything? It's like, what do you want me to do, really? 186 00:07:17.689 --> 00:07:20.149 Just let me know. I could never understand that. 187 00:07:20.230 --> 00:07:22.230 Yeah, and I needed more control in my life, so 188 00:07:22.250 --> 00:07:24.639 I started producing theater, and I thought, oh, I really 189 00:07:24.680 --> 00:07:27.160 like this. Here in L.A.? Yeah, I utilized my heart 190 00:07:27.240 --> 00:07:30.439 and my head, and I had some success producing theater, 191 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:33.930 and I fell in love with it. And One evening, 192 00:07:33.949 --> 00:07:36.009 a friend and my husband took me out to dinner 193 00:07:36.040 --> 00:07:39.379 and said, you're much happier producing. And I thought, yeah, 194 00:07:39.399 --> 00:07:41.680 I am. But if I produce theater, I'm going to 195 00:07:41.699 --> 00:07:43.399 be poor my whole life, and I didn't want to 196 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:45.980 be poor. So I got into film and television. 197 00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:48.500 What was your first job? Wasn't it at Regency? 198 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:50.620 It was at Regency. I was an assistant to the president. 199 00:07:50.660 --> 00:07:53.699 His name was Steve Ruther. We did eight to ten 200 00:07:53.759 --> 00:07:58.750 movies a year.

We had a huge... Arnon Milshon still 201 00:07:58.850 --> 00:08:00.310 owns the company to this day. Right. 202 00:08:00.329 --> 00:08:03.910 And that was at the time, what, Free Willy, Pretty. 203 00:08:03.269 --> 00:08:08.209 Woman, Free Willy, Guilty by Suspicion, JFK, Under Siege. 204 00:08:08.509 --> 00:08:10.370 What did you do when you were employed by them? 205 00:08:10.750 --> 00:08:12.730 I was an assistant to the president. I learned a 206 00:08:12.930 --> 00:08:15.310 lot from him. I worked 12 to 14 hours a 207 00:08:15.329 --> 00:08:18.850 day because he worked nonstop. And I was, you know, 208 00:08:19.069 --> 00:08:21.129 in the room when notes were given. I learned a 209 00:08:21.170 --> 00:08:24.120 lot about process. I learned a lot about filmmaking. That's 210 00:08:24.139 --> 00:08:26.920 when we were making films with film and not with video. 211 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:30.529 It was just a remarkable two years of my life. 212 00:08:30.709 --> 00:08:33.370 And then I got pregnant and had my daughter. 213 00:08:33.570 --> 00:08:35.250 Did you stay home or did you go right back 214 00:08:35.269 --> 00:08:35.450 to work? 215 00:08:35.529 --> 00:08:37.629 No, I went back to work after three months. And 216 00:08:37.690 --> 00:08:42.600 then I took a job. Actually, I left the business 217 00:08:42.639 --> 00:08:45.179 altogether and became a grief counselor for a while. 218 00:08:45.460 --> 00:08:47.519 That's interesting. How'd you get into that? Now that I 219 00:08:47.559 --> 00:08:50.120 didn't know. How'd you get into that? 220 00:08:50.139 --> 00:08:53.320 You know, I suffered a loss in my life in 1990. 221 00:08:53.320 --> 00:08:55.610 My brother's wife and son were killed in a car 222 00:08:55.639 --> 00:08:58.690 accident and it really blindsided everybody in my family. And 223 00:08:59.110 --> 00:09:01.409 my nephew was seven at the time. And so I 224 00:09:01.450 --> 00:09:05.169 was just heartbroken. And I went to a grief recovery 225 00:09:05.950 --> 00:09:08.419 seminar and they really helped glue my butt back on. 226 00:09:08.909 --> 00:09:12.500 And so after I worked with Steve, I got a 227 00:09:12.519 --> 00:09:14.379 call from them saying, look, we just started the first 228 00:09:14.419 --> 00:09:16.919 hospital program in the country for grievers, and we need 229 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:18.779 someone to come over here and manage it. Would you 230 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:22.220 be willing? And I wanted to get away from the 231 00:09:22.259 --> 00:09:24.330 entertainment industry. I wanted to have a little bit more 232 00:09:24.350 --> 00:09:26.870 of a simpler life. And that was probably one of 233 00:09:26.889 --> 00:09:29.330 the most rewarding jobs of my entire life. I got 234 00:09:29.370 --> 00:09:31.350 to work with a lot of really fascinating people and 235 00:09:31.850 --> 00:09:34.259 work with grievers. Wow. Incredible. 236 00:09:34.580 --> 00:09:37.399 And then you went on to work with, you went 237 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:38.899 to Mark Gordon Productions. 238 00:09:39.059 --> 00:09:40.220 I went to Showtime Next. 239 00:09:40.340 --> 00:09:41.019 Showtime, right. 240 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:43.440 Actually, I went to Eden Rock Next. I was still 241 00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:45.490 in film and we did What's Eating Gilbert Grape and 242 00:09:45.659 --> 00:09:48.070 George Clooney's first film from Dusk Till Dawn. 243 00:09:48.669 --> 00:09:51.809 What's Eating Gilbert Grape to this day remains one of 244 00:09:51.889 --> 00:09:52.649 my favorite films. 245 00:09:52.669 --> 00:09:52.870 Me too. 246 00:09:53.129 --> 00:09:56.690 Another one, he happens to be in Leonardo DiCaprio, Catch 247 00:09:56.730 --> 00:09:59.090 Me If You Can, but that's later on in his career. 248 00:09:59.720 --> 00:10:03.970 What's eating Gilbert Grape? Absolutely convinced that this was a 249 00:10:04.009 --> 00:10:07.419 person who had, you know, some disabilities, for lack of 250 00:10:07.460 --> 00:10:09.799 a better word. I was stunned when I first, you know, 251 00:10:09.860 --> 00:10:12.620 saw the actor. Boy, what an incredible actor. 252 00:10:12.679 --> 00:10:16.340 Such a beautiful script, too. Peter Hedges wrote that based 253 00:10:16.379 --> 00:10:18.860 on a book that he wrote. And to this day, 254 00:10:18.899 --> 00:10:20.720 it's also one of my favorite films also. 255 00:10:20.779 --> 00:10:23.600 Beautiful film. So, I mean, you started, you were working 256 00:10:23.620 --> 00:10:25.500 with a lot of the greats in the business. Wow. 257 00:10:25.759 --> 00:10:26.899 I mean, they didn't know me, but I was. 258 00:10:26.940 --> 00:10:28.139 No, but you watched them. 259 00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:28.259 Yes. 260 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:29.799 And it was all coming in fine. 261 00:10:29.830 --> 00:10:30.330 I was learning. 262 00:10:30.350 --> 00:10:33.049 Yes, exactly. And you were really learning. And so, yeah. 263 00:10:33.070 --> 00:10:34.929 So after that, I went to Showtime Networks and I 264 00:10:34.950 --> 00:10:37.789 was there for eight years. And we did a lot 265 00:10:37.809 --> 00:10:38.990 of material. 266 00:10:39.450 --> 00:10:41.950 Yeah. That's where you shared your job with another woman. 267 00:10:41.970 --> 00:10:42.429 Right. 268 00:10:42.490 --> 00:10:45.070 And then you became president of Mark Gordon. 269 00:10:45.529 --> 00:10:47.850 Yeah, the Mark Gordon Television Company. Mark called me after 270 00:10:47.909 --> 00:10:51.450 I left Showtime and said that Mark's a very prolific 271 00:10:51.509 --> 00:10:54.190 film producer and he said that he was going to 272 00:10:54.250 --> 00:10:56.049 sign a television deal and he needed someone to come 273 00:10:56.090 --> 00:10:59.539 over and run that part of his company. And so 274 00:10:59.580 --> 00:11:03.899 I went and they had just wrapped Grey's Anatomy and 275 00:11:04.539 --> 00:11:07.080 it hadn't even been aired yet. They just finished the pilot. 276 00:11:07.379 -->

00:11:10.639 And I came in the end of July and he said, 277 00:11:10.659 --> 00:11:13.100 I'd like to sell four shows. I'd never done television 278 00:11:13.179 --> 00:11:16.669 series before, only movies and miniseries and one reality series. 279 00:11:16.750 --> 00:11:19.250 But other than that, I hadn't done anything like that. 280 00:11:19.309 --> 00:11:22.409 But We sold four shows in the first year. One 281 00:11:22.429 --> 00:11:25.490 of them was Criminal Minds, and Grey's Anatomy hit, and 282 00:11:25.509 --> 00:11:27.929 then Criminal Minds hit, and we were off to the track. 283 00:11:28.029 --> 00:11:29.610 Now, when you do this, you have to read a 284 00:11:29.690 --> 00:11:32.529 lot of scripts. You have to read and read, and 285 00:11:32.549 --> 00:11:35.289 then you have to option, and you have to call people, 286 00:11:35.350 --> 00:11:37.409 and then stuff doesn't get made. It does get made. 287 00:11:37.509 --> 00:11:40.570 But all of this was going on in your mind, right? 288 00:11:40.629 --> 00:11:44.470 And then one day, years later, you thought, I'm going 289 00:11:44.490 --> 00:11:48.009 to write something of my own. How did Call Your 290 00:11:48.049 --> 00:11:50.909 Daughter Home— come to pass. Now, I know that you 291 00:11:50.980 --> 00:11:53.100 obviously had ideas in your mind. You said you actually 292 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:54.240 took an extension course. 293 00:11:54.320 --> 00:11:57.840 Yeah. At UCLA. Yes. I wanted to write, I wanted 294 00:11:57.879 --> 00:11:59.539 to write something of my own. I've been a midwife 295 00:11:59.580 --> 00:12:01.539 to other writers for so long. You know, I really 296 00:12:01.610 --> 00:12:05.509 helped them bring their vision to fruition. And I was, 297 00:12:05.529 --> 00:12:08.009 I hit a lull in my career at that point 298 00:12:08.230 --> 00:12:10.570 and I didn't have anything on the horizon. So I thought, 299 00:12:10.590 --> 00:12:12.220 I'm just going to write a little something of my 300 00:12:12.269 --> 00:12:14.110 own just to check it off the bucket list. And 301 00:12:14.129 --> 00:12:17.549 I had an idea about a small novella, tiny novella, 302 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:21.759 which consisted of five short stories about five women from 303 00:12:21.779 --> 00:12:24.580 the same Southern family, five different generations of women. And 304 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:26.580 each short story took place in a different time. So 305 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:31.000 you would track the trajectory of these women from dependency 306 00:12:31.860 --> 00:12:35.720 and desperation to autonomy and freedom. And that's what I 307 00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:38.490 wanted to track, how one family came through that. 308 00:12:38.830 --> 00:12:44.659 I loved the characters Gertrude, Retta, And Annie, why don't 309 00:12:44.700 --> 00:12:47.500 you tell us when this starts to take place back 310 00:12:47.620 --> 00:12:51.309 in 1924, just before the Great Depression in this country. 311 00:12:51.629 --> 00:12:54.549 But yet the South was going through its own depression. Yes. 312 00:12:54.669 --> 00:12:56.809 Because of the boll weevil infestation. 313 00:12:56.850 --> 00:12:57.049 Right. 314 00:12:57.230 --> 00:13:00.409 The cotton crop was pretty much destroyed. People were starving. 315 00:13:00.870 --> 00:13:05.490 And you've got these three women, strong women, mothers, who 316 00:13:05.529 --> 00:13:07.029 came together. Yeah. 317 00:13:07.460 --> 00:13:11.860 Gertrude is the mother of four daughters. She married at 318 00:13:11.860 --> 00:13:15.509 13 and arranged marriage. And she has to make an 319 00:13:15.549 --> 00:13:18.370 unconscionable decision to save her daughters from starving or to 320 00:13:18.409 --> 00:13:20.230 die at the hands of an abusive husband. And she 321 00:13:20.289 --> 00:13:25.429 makes a very unconscionable decision. And Retta is a first-generation 322 00:13:25.549 --> 00:13:30.029 free woman. Her family, they were owned by the family 323 00:13:30.049 --> 00:13:32.570 that she still works for. She's married to the love 324 00:13:32.610 --> 00:13:35.409 of her life, Odell. And they started a small community 325 00:13:35.490 --> 00:13:38.110 in Branchville called Shake Rag that's an all-black community that 326 00:13:38.169 --> 00:13:38.840 still exists. 327 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:41.129 That's incredible. It still exists. Oh, yeah. 328 00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:43.399 If you ask anybody, it's not on a map, but 329 00:13:43.450 --> 00:13:45.470 we're Shake Rag, and they'll point you in the direction. 330 00:13:45.970 --> 00:13:49.009 And then Annie is the matriarch of the plantation where 331 00:13:49.269 --> 00:13:52.470 Retta works, and she was wealthy herself before she entered 332 00:13:52.509 --> 00:13:56.309 into a marriage that her husband, who's a very powerful 333 00:13:56.350 --> 00:13:58.750 man in the region, was also very wealthy. But she 334 00:13:58.789 --> 00:14:01.960 has a side business because years prior, she lost her 335 00:14:01.980 --> 00:14:08.389 12-year-old son. He killed himself. And she threw herself into 336 00:14:08.409 --> 00:14:10.899 her own business, and she owns the sewing circle that 337 00:14:10.940 --> 00:14:13.940 employs all the regional women sewing feed and seed bags. 338 00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:18.950 And based on her son Lonnie's desire to branch out, 339 00:14:18.970 --> 00:14:22.149 they're moving into a men's line. And it's really the 340 00:14:22.169 --> 00:14:25.419 story of these three women, and all three have suffered 341 00:14:25.539 --> 00:14:28.700 terrible losses. And all three must come together to fight 342 00:14:28.779 --> 00:14:30.820 a greater evil. And I wanted to explore what happens 343 00:14:30.860 --> 00:14:35.830 when three different women from different class and ethnicity come 344 00:14:35.870 --> 00:14:38.450 together and how they could be a dangerous force for good. 345 00:14:39.210 --> 00:14:42.950 Oh, I love that. What is the

greater evil? Can 346 00:14:42.970 --> 00:14:45.029 you just give us a little something for people who 347 00:14:45.070 --> 00:14:49.019 have not read it that they get together to combat? 348 00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:52.279 Annie is probably the most blind of the characters, even 349 00:14:52.299 --> 00:14:56.309 though she's the most wealthy. And she stumbles upon... A 350 00:14:56.350 --> 00:14:59.879 revelation that changes the way she views her life. 351 00:14:59.919 --> 00:15:01.120 Oh, I want to give it away, but we can't. 352 00:15:01.139 --> 00:15:04.379 We can't give it away. We can't do it. And that, 353 00:15:04.940 --> 00:15:07.960 what she thought was her life up to this point, 354 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:11.289 she realizes was a lie. And based on that lie, 355 00:15:11.450 --> 00:15:14.029 she decides to take matters into her own hands. And 356 00:15:14.350 --> 00:15:18.570 Retta and Annie, Retta and Gertrude come alongside her and they, together, 357 00:15:18.629 --> 00:15:21.820 they change the trajectory of that entire town, really. 358 00:15:22.179 --> 00:15:24.779 Yes, they do. I love how each chapter is named 359 00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:27.679 after the character. You know, it's not like chapter three, 360 00:15:27.700 --> 00:15:30.389 you know, Gertrude goes to the store. It's about the character. 361 00:15:30.750 --> 00:15:34.070 Chapter one, Gertrude. Chapter two, it's about the women in 362 00:15:34.110 --> 00:15:36.250 this story. I'll tell you, the minute you open the 363 00:15:36.289 --> 00:15:38.879 book and you're at, I'll call it chapter one, which 364 00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:43.100 is Gertrude. Oh, I love this. It's easier to kill 365 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:46.279 a man than a gator, but it takes the same 366 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:49.940 kind of weight. You got to watch for the weakness 367 00:15:50.259 --> 00:15:52.460 and take your shot to the back of the head. Oh, 368 00:15:52.500 --> 00:15:54.519 when I read that, I'm like, who's going down? I 369 00:15:54.559 --> 00:15:57.100 got to know right now. And then right there, you 370 00:15:57.120 --> 00:16:00.710 grab us. And then I've since read some reviews and everyone, 371 00:16:01.070 --> 00:16:03.610 that line right there, where did this come from? 372 00:16:04.250 --> 00:16:06.340 I wish I knew. That line just came to me. Wow. 373 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:10.480 This short story is the first in the collection that 374 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:12.840 I wrote, but it was the last one that I wrote. 375 00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:13.809 I struggled with it. 376 00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:14.200 It was. 377 00:16:14.220 --> 00:16:16.399 I was scared of it. I didn't know quite how 378 00:16:16.759 --> 00:16:17.639 to tackle it. 379 00:16:17.820 --> 00:16:18.139 Wow. 380 00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:20.679 And so I just... I literally wrote down in two 381 00:16:20.730 --> 00:16:22.700 days this story and.. 382 00:16:23.769 --> 00:16:24.789 This particular chapter. 383 00:16:24.830 --> 00:16:28.190 Yes, this particular chapter. And this first chapter is the 384 00:16:28.210 --> 00:16:30.470 first short story of that small novella that I wrote. 385 00:16:30.590 --> 00:16:33.409 Well, it got us all going. I mean, I know that... 386 00:16:34.250 --> 00:16:38.379 Oprah's Magazine loved it. You've got NPR.com. You've got kudos 387 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:41.759 from so many brilliant writers who've read this. And you 388 00:16:41.820 --> 00:16:44.639 really captured a lot of people. How did you do 389 00:16:44.679 --> 00:16:47.269 your research on this? Because I realize that you, as 390 00:16:47.309 --> 00:16:49.470 a kid, right, you went back and forth there, didn't you? 391 00:16:49.490 --> 00:16:50.129 You spent time. 392 00:16:50.149 --> 00:16:51.929 Yeah, I spent a lot of time there. We would 393 00:16:51.950 --> 00:16:55.259 go visit my great-grandmother, whom I call Mama Lane. And 394 00:16:55.279 --> 00:16:57.659 she lived in this little clapboard house on Freedom Highway. 395 00:16:57.750 --> 00:16:58.879 It had no indoor plumbing. 396 00:16:58.899 --> 00:17:01.029 I've got to just say, your southern accent is starting 397 00:17:01.049 --> 00:17:03.289 to come out. You're talking about it, and she lived 398 00:17:03.309 --> 00:17:05.549 in this little thing. But, okay, go ahead. We'll go there. 399 00:17:05.630 --> 00:17:07.609 And there was no indoor plumbing. So there was a 400 00:17:07.849 --> 00:17:10.430 bright red pump by the back kitchen door. And that's 401 00:17:10.490 --> 00:17:14.539 where we would use the water for our necessities, washing dishes, 402 00:17:14.599 --> 00:17:16.279 washing clothes, washing our bodies. 403 00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:18.079 Did you enjoy it? 404 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:19.359 I was fascinated. 405 00:17:19.380 --> 00:17:20.900 Yeah, you must have been fascinated as a little kid. 406 00:17:20.920 --> 00:17:23.190 I was fascinated by her. There were all these pecan 407 00:17:23.230 --> 00:17:25.690 trees in the backyard, and we'd crack open the pecans 408 00:17:25.750 --> 00:17:28.829 and shell them and store them for winter, and everything 409 00:17:28.869 --> 00:17:31.049 went to use. An old dress was made into an apron. 410 00:17:31.069 --> 00:17:36.359 You know, she was just a really quiet, strong woman 411 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:38.920 filled with fortitude who raised four daughters and a son 412 00:17:39.160 --> 00:17:42.059 on her own. So I was just mesmerized by the 413 00:17:42.099 --> 00:17:45.380 place and by her and by the way of life, 414 00:17:45.769 --> 00:17:48.609 and it never left me. Clearly. 415 00:17:48.849 --> 00:17:51.170 Yeah. Did you ever want to spend time there as 416 00:17:51.210 --> 00:17:51.730 an adult? No. 417 00:17:52.019 --> 00:17:54.329 I have. In fact, I did a lot of research. 418 00:17:54.390 --> 00:17:56.869 I went back. I have family that is still back there. 419 00:17:57.210 --> 00:18:00.990 And I reconnected with family, and they took me through

420 00:18:01.009 --> 00:18:04.140 the stomping grounds of Branchville, South Carolina, and introduced me 421 00:18:04.180 --> 00:18:07.579 to people that were hugely helpful and informative in the 422 00:18:07.619 --> 00:18:11.960 writing of this book. Reverend Vernon Blanchard at Canaan Baptist Church, 423 00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:15.609 he's literally the most remarkable preacher I've ever met in 424 00:18:15.650 --> 00:18:18.460 my life. If You've never been to an all black 425 00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:19.400 Southern Baptist church. 426 00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:20.099 Oh, please go. 427 00:18:20.460 --> 00:18:21.119 Highly recommend. 428 00:18:21.140 --> 00:18:23.339 I don't care where you are, what town, go to one. 429 00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:25.960 Just the call and response and the call and response. 430 00:18:26.019 --> 00:18:28.680 And that's sort of how I tackled the rhythms in 431 00:18:28.700 --> 00:18:31.680 this book because it's, he helped me so much with 432 00:18:31.769 --> 00:18:35.869 sermons and with, with the word and, and, and, and 433 00:18:35.910 --> 00:18:39.789 then camp is a revival place in, in, in this 434 00:18:39.849 --> 00:18:42.470 book where the climax takes place in St. 435 00:18:42.490 --> 00:18:42.750 George. 436 00:18:42.769 --> 00:18:47.049 It still exists 250 years old. It's, It's 99 what 437 00:18:47.069 --> 00:18:49.650 they call tents, but they're really two-story cabins in a circle, 438 00:18:49.690 --> 00:18:51.849 and in the middle is a tabernacle, and it's a 439 00:18:51.910 --> 00:18:57.539 remarkable place. So I was just interested in the place, 440 00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:02.039 and people gave me something every time I asked. 441 00:19:02.059 --> 00:19:04.569 You lived in New York. You live in Los Angeles. 442 00:19:04.589 --> 00:19:04.869 Mm-hmm. 443 00:19:05.549 --> 00:19:08.089 When you go there and you're doing your research, do 444 00:19:08.109 --> 00:19:10.569 you feel like it's so different than the way you live? 445 00:19:10.630 --> 00:19:12.769 Because it is still different there. It's very different. Things 446 00:19:12.789 --> 00:19:13.890 have changed, but it's different. 447 00:19:14.150 --> 00:19:16.869 It's very different, but it feels like home to me. 448 00:19:16.910 --> 00:19:20.650 I feel like these are my people. These are the 449 00:19:20.670 --> 00:19:23.380 people that understand the way I talk, the way I think, 450 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:28.460 the food. My stomach never hurts when I'm in the South. 451 00:19:28.579 --> 00:19:31.240 It hurts all the time when I'm here. I don't 452 00:19:31.259 --> 00:19:33.900 know if it's just the city or what. Not mine. 453 00:19:35.940 --> 00:19:38.400 We have a life here. We have three children here. 454 00:19:38.420 --> 00:19:40.200 I've built a life here. I've built a career here. 455 00:19:40.259 --> 00:19:43.019 But every time I go back to South Carolina or Kentucky, 456 00:19:43.589 --> 00:19:45.650 as soon as the plane descends, I just feel like, oh, 457 00:19:46.230 --> 00:19:47.109 I'm home. I'm home. 458 00:19:50.019 --> 00:19:53.380 Felt most comfortable as a child, you know, and hopefully 459 00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:56.190 you felt comfortable there as a child, when you go back, 460 00:19:56.470 --> 00:19:59.200 you're home. And you may move and spend the rest 461 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:01.400 of your life somewhere else, but that's always a part 462 00:20:01.420 --> 00:20:03.839 of you, which is why you wrote this book. I 463 00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:06.420 found it interesting that you were going to call it, what, 464 00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:07.059 The Alligator? 465 00:20:07.079 --> 00:20:09.539 I was going to call it Alligator. It was titled Alligator. 466 00:20:09.859 --> 00:20:13.809 So much better. Well, the publishers of Park Row said 467 00:20:13.829 --> 00:20:16.470 you have to change the name because if anybody Googles Alligator, 468 00:20:16.490 --> 00:20:18.730 they're going to Google Florida or children's books. 469 00:20:18.750 --> 00:20:19.769 No, there's no doubt about it. 470 00:20:20.349 --> 00:20:22.329 So I balked at first. I was like, I can't 471 00:20:22.349 --> 00:20:24.309 think of anything. I can't think of anything. At one point, 472 00:20:24.329 --> 00:20:25.789 I called my agent and said, tell them we'll give 473 00:20:25.809 --> 00:20:27.569 them the money back. I can't do it. And she said, 474 00:20:27.990 --> 00:20:29.910 we're not giving that money back. You can do this. 475 00:20:30.450 --> 00:20:32.170 And then I remembered that whenever I read a book 476 00:20:32.190 --> 00:20:34.279 that I love, I always believe that the theme is 477 00:20:34.299 --> 00:20:35.839 in the heart of the book, the center of the book. 478 00:20:35.859 --> 00:20:36.539 So you opened it up. 479 00:20:36.539 --> 00:20:37.539 I opened to the center of the book. 480 00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:39.380 You cranked it open. You know, I actually tried doing 481 00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:41.039 that when I was reading this because I know your 482 00:20:41.059 --> 00:20:43.039 whole story. And I'm like, where was that? Yeah. So 483 00:20:43.180 --> 00:20:46.039 I did. I was looking for that moment where you 484 00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:46.740 found it. 485 00:20:47.130 --> 00:20:48.750 And I opened it to the center of the book, 486 00:20:48.789 --> 00:20:51.569 and it's Retta in a birth scene with a young 487 00:20:51.609 --> 00:20:54.299 woman who helps her. And she's telling the young woman 488 00:20:54.319 --> 00:20:55.140 who's giving birth. Go get your daughter. 489 00:20:55.160 --> 00:20:55.720 Go get my daughter. 490 00:20:55.819 --> 00:20:58.079 You know, she believed your child is at the gate. 491 00:20:58.140 --> 00:21:00.279 Your child is waiting. Your child, call your daughter home. 492 00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:02.980 Call her home. Wow. And so I was like, oh, 493 00:21:03.059 --> 00:21:05.400 that's it. It resonates in every way. 494 00:21:06.549 --> 00:21:09.210 In every

way. Yeah. In every way. 495 00:21:09.230 --> 00:21:09.390 Yeah. 496 00:21:09.569 --> 00:21:12.049 How has this book changed the community? 497 00:21:12.250 --> 00:21:15.150 There. There. Oh, I don't know. You know, I don't know. 498 00:21:15.380 --> 00:21:17.430 I know that they're happy, you know, that I wrote it. 499 00:21:17.630 --> 00:21:20.359 And the woman who was my inspiration for Retta, I 500 00:21:20.539 --> 00:21:22.079 got to meet her finally. We had a lot of 501 00:21:22.099 --> 00:21:25.299 conversations on the phone. She's married to Glenn, Retta and 502 00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:28.559 Glenn Miller. They live in Branchville, South Carolina. And Glenn 503 00:21:28.579 --> 00:21:30.960 was the first black mayor of Branchville. And they were just, 504 00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:34.279 she was very close friends with my great aunt Louise. 505 00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:38.990 I modeled the friendship between Retta and Mrs. Walker based 506 00:21:39.049 --> 00:21:40.029 on their friendship. 507 00:21:40.299 --> 00:21:43.680 Very beautiful friendship they have. Yeah. This is such a 508 00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:44.420 rich story. 509 00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:46.539 So we've had a lot of conversations. So I finally 510 00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:48.359 got to meet her this past summer when I went back. 511 00:21:48.420 --> 00:21:53.329 And I know how pleased they are. And I'm happy 512 00:21:53.369 --> 00:21:55.910 they feel honored because I wanted to honor them. 513 00:21:56.130 --> 00:21:58.549 I feel that in this book. Like I actually feel 514 00:21:58.589 --> 00:22:02.180 it when I'm reading through the pages how– There's a 515 00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:04.119 real message in here, how you want to honor the 516 00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:05.559 women that came up before. 517 00:22:05.220 --> 00:22:07.519 All of us. And I was daunted to write a 518 00:22:07.539 --> 00:22:09.720 woman of color. I'm a white woman from the South. 519 00:22:09.819 --> 00:22:12.480 How dare I write a woman of color? I was 520 00:22:12.680 --> 00:22:16.869 scared of that because I wasn't sure if I had 521 00:22:16.900 --> 00:22:18.970 the right to do that. But the more I talked 522 00:22:18.990 --> 00:22:21.970 to Miss Retta in Branchville, the more I thought, well, 523 00:22:22.029 --> 00:22:26.009 I want to honor her. I want to honor these friendships. 524 00:22:26.029 --> 00:22:28.130 I want to honor her place in this community. 525 00:22:29.430 --> 00:22:33.289 So I thought... How beautiful, though, that you were welcomed 526 00:22:33.369 --> 00:22:35.849 like that. Because you could have walked into this community 527 00:22:35.869 --> 00:22:38.640 and they're like, what does she know? But you weren't. 528 00:22:39.079 --> 00:22:40.920 And I think it's probably because of the way you 529 00:22:40.940 --> 00:22:42.059 walked into this community. 530 00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:42.900 They knew my family. 531 00:22:42.940 --> 00:22:43.519 They knew your family. 532 00:22:43.539 --> 00:22:47.440 They knew my great-grandmother. They knew my grandmother and her sisters. 533 00:22:47.700 --> 00:22:51.220 I mean, every person in Branchville knows some member of 534 00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:51.849 my family. 535 00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:54.509 Do you have a favorite excerpt that you'd like to read? 536 00:22:54.809 --> 00:22:56.829 Do you ever do that when you're putting you on 537 00:22:56.849 --> 00:22:58.109 the spot? I do. 538 00:22:59.170 --> 00:23:01.990 I can read. a little bit of Gertrude. You read 539 00:23:02.119 --> 00:23:04.819 the first couple lines, but do you have something you 540 00:23:04.859 --> 00:23:05.500 want me to read? 541 00:23:05.559 --> 00:23:09.519 No, I just picked some parts that I loved myself 542 00:23:09.579 --> 00:23:11.980 that resonated with me. Because you know what I found? 543 00:23:12.299 --> 00:23:15.240 It doesn't matter what paragraph. I could just open right here. 544 00:23:16.009 --> 00:23:20.970 Very descriptive writing. You bring me in immediately. It's 12.30 p.m. 545 00:23:21.009 --> 00:23:25.680 when Jackie, our mailman, arrives to take what I've readied. 546 00:23:26.180 --> 00:23:29.240 They were ahead of schedule before the illness spread. Just 547 00:23:29.380 --> 00:23:32.940 two simple sentences set a stage for what was about 548 00:23:32.980 --> 00:23:35.579 to happen. And no matter where I go in this book, 549 00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:37.089 it's so well written. 550 00:23:37.170 --> 00:23:37.690 Oh, thank you. 551 00:23:37.750 --> 00:23:39.470 I appreciate that. If you have something you'd like to read, 552 00:23:39.789 --> 00:23:40.289 I'd love that. 553 00:23:40.990 --> 00:23:45.769 I'll read this short passage, Gertrude. It's easier to kill 554 00:23:45.809 --> 00:23:47.650 a man than a gator, but it takes the same 555 00:23:47.730 --> 00:23:50.160 kind of weight. You got to watch for the weakness 556 00:23:50.200 --> 00:23:51.720 and take your shot to the back of the head. 557 00:23:52.329 --> 00:23:55.130 This gator I'm watching is watching me too. She smells 558 00:23:55.190 --> 00:23:57.599 the last of my menstrual blood, so she's half in, 559 00:23:57.660 --> 00:23:59.799 half out of the water, laid up on the ridge 560 00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:02.240 of dry land that is our footpath through the swamp 561 00:24:02.279 --> 00:24:04.880 and out to the main road. I'm propped against an 562 00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:08.660 old cypress. We're a pair. I'm sick with pain. The 563 00:24:08.700 --> 00:24:11.009 hours of wait have made me stiff, but it don't matter. 564 00:24:11.349 --> 00:24:14.150 None of that matters. All that counts is this ridge 565 00:24:14.210 --> 00:24:16.819 laid out like a rope between us. This big old 566 00:24:16.839 --> 00:24:18.849 thing's got her back to the nest my girl Alma 567 00:24:18.869 --> 00:24:21.829 spotted earlier today. She's a ten-foot mama, big enough to 568 00:24:21.869 --> 00:24:24.630 feed us through fall. Got two shells in this gun, 569

00:24:24.849 --> 00:24:27.650 but only one chance for a kill. When we've come 570 00:24:27.690 --> 00:24:29.869 to Reevesville, I was hoping to get Alvin straight, but 571 00:24:29.890 --> 00:24:32.130 it looks like he's going to run me crazy. Ever 572 00:24:32.170 --> 00:24:34.039 since the bull weevil took our crop, he ain't done 573 00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:36.539 nothing but drink for nigh on a year. We left 574 00:24:36.579 --> 00:24:39.079 everything we had in Branchville, including two of our four daughters, 575 00:24:39.099 --> 00:24:41.299 and come over here to his daddy's sawmill for work. 576 00:24:42.369 --> 00:24:44.410 I hope steady work and some food in our bellies 577 00:24:44.809 --> 00:24:47.250 might set him right, but he ain't right. Maybe he 578 00:24:47.289 --> 00:24:49.650 never will be. First he closed the mill at one 579 00:24:49.670 --> 00:24:51.910 o'clock yesterday and didn't come home till late last night. 580 00:24:52.410 --> 00:24:54.930 Then he found the letter from my brother Burns telling 581 00:24:54.950 --> 00:24:57.650 me of a job over in Branchville. He hates Burns 582 00:24:57.670 --> 00:25:00.069 for taking care of what he can't. He wailed on 583 00:25:00.109 --> 00:25:02.230 me and warned me to stay put. He's still mad 584 00:25:02.250 --> 00:25:03.769 from the last time I went to see my brother 585 00:25:03.809 --> 00:25:06.630 for help. Now my eyes swole shut, I can't see 586 00:25:06.690 --> 00:25:08.299 out of it, and the only letter I've had for 587 00:25:08.339 --> 00:25:10.240 a month giving me the news about my two oldest 588 00:25:10.299 --> 00:25:12.990 children is burned and gone. Alvin laid in the bed 589 00:25:13.009 --> 00:25:15.069 all morning until his daddy come over here and raised hell. 590 00:25:15.569 --> 00:25:18.069 Now he's gone off to work, sick with drink, and 591 00:25:18.089 --> 00:25:20.349 we're left with nothing but the sound of our own bellies. 592 00:25:20.849 --> 00:25:22.869 I've about worked myself to death here, and it ain't 593 00:25:22.910 --> 00:25:25.490 done any good. I'm the woman of a house that 594 00:25:25.559 --> 00:25:27.799 don't exist. So that's Gertrude. 595 00:25:28.839 --> 00:25:31.299 Girl, where do those words come from? How did you 596 00:25:31.319 --> 00:25:33.420 learn to write like this? From where you come from, 597 00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:35.819 clearly it's all in your head. I know you took 598 00:25:35.859 --> 00:25:39.529 an extension course, which kind of killed me. But clearly 599 00:25:39.549 --> 00:25:42.450 they saw something in you because they helped you push this. 600 00:25:42.369 --> 00:25:46.369 Along, didn't they? Wow. Why are you getting. 601 00:25:45.609 --> 00:25:47.069 A student like you coming through the door? 602 00:25:47.309 --> 00:25:49.930 I could hear their voices in my head. It was crazy. 603 00:25:49.990 --> 00:25:52.299 I could just hear them talking to me. And I 604 00:25:52.339 --> 00:25:55.460 really wanted this to be

a book that, while it 605 00:25:55.500 --> 00:25:59.319 explores dire circumstances, it explores look, I'm going to tell 606 00:25:59.339 --> 00:26:01.480 the truth. I wrote this book to try and understanding 607 00:26:01.500 --> 00:26:04.079 the deep anxiety that runs through my family. The women 608 00:26:04.099 --> 00:26:06.599 in my family have a deep anxiety. And I thought 609 00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:08.529 if I could write into it, I could understand it. 610 00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:11.640 And what I discovered was that we're not victims of 611 00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:15.420 our circumstance, that we're built to rise above our circumstances. 612 00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:18.920 Regardless of our fears, we walk forward in spite of 613 00:26:18.980 --> 00:26:21.960 them or despite them. And that's what the women in 614 00:26:21.980 --> 00:26:24.990 my family did. And And when I was so afraid 615 00:26:25.029 --> 00:26:26.859 to write this book, I just said to myself, you 616 00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:29.000 can fail. It's okay. Just write one hour every day. 617 00:26:29.059 --> 00:26:32.779 Write as badly as you can. It's okay. I give 618 00:26:32.819 --> 00:26:36.279 myself permission to fail. And by giving yourself permission to fail, 619 00:26:37.299 --> 00:26:39.470 things started to come alive to me in ways that 620 00:26:39.509 --> 00:26:42.710 I'd never imagined. And I started to hear these voices 621 00:26:42.750 --> 00:26:44.930 and I started to try and run to capture them. 622 00:26:46.009 --> 00:26:49.109 Boy, if that's not beautifully said. And it's true. I've 623 00:26:49.150 --> 00:26:52.569 heard that before from writers, from great musicians. You hear 624 00:26:52.589 --> 00:26:54.730 it in your head. You have to get it out. 625 00:26:55.019 --> 00:26:57.900 Were you doing this while you were running One Two Punch, 626 00:26:57.940 --> 00:27:01.740 your company? So by day, you're this major executive. 627 00:27:02.359 --> 00:27:05.019 Yeah. I would work all morning and then about two 628 00:27:05.059 --> 00:27:06.619 o'clock in the afternoon, I would sit down and write 629 00:27:06.640 --> 00:27:08.960 from two to four. Two to three initially. 630 00:27:09.039 --> 00:27:10.920 It's a discipline. You got to do it, right? You 631 00:27:10.940 --> 00:27:13.119 can't just say, oh, I want to do this book. Like, no, 632 00:27:13.240 --> 00:27:14.240 you got to sit down, right? 633 00:27:14.259 --> 00:27:18.079 Yeah, I wanted to. And I had this remarkable opportunity. 634 00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:20.359 An agent said, I read your work. I love your work. 635 00:27:20.440 --> 00:27:22.720 These aren't short stories. These are novels in disguise. Start 636 00:27:22.740 --> 00:27:24.160 with the first one. I want to represent you. 637 00:27:24.220 --> 00:27:24.460 Go. 638 00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:27.920 And I was like, oh, what? And I cried for 639 00:27:27.980 --> 00:27:29.900 two weeks on the couch like somebody shot my mother 640 00:27:29.920 -->

00:27:31.849 because I was scared. I thought, I can't write a book. 641 00:27:31.930 --> 00:27:35.259 I've never written a book. But I had this opportunity 642 00:27:35.339 --> 00:27:36.880 and I didn't want to miss it. So I just 643 00:27:36.920 --> 00:27:39.079 said every day at two o'clock and then the body 644 00:27:39.119 --> 00:27:41.839 starts to respond. Okay. You're sitting down to write. Okay. 645 00:27:41.859 --> 00:27:43.680 This is your time. Okay. Here's what we're going to do. 646 00:27:43.779 --> 00:27:46.980 Did you ever go over? Because I've talked to many 647 00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:49.819 writers and you do designate your time. It's really the 648 00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:52.279 only way you could do it. But one friend of 649 00:27:52.299 --> 00:27:54.200 mine said, I don't go over. I save it till 650 00:27:54.220 --> 00:27:57.480 the next day because she wanted to stay motivated. You know, 651 00:27:57.539 --> 00:27:59.940 everybody has their way of getting out the characters and 652 00:28:00.289 --> 00:28:03.109 getting into the head of these characters. So how long 653 00:28:03.130 --> 00:28:04.369 did it even take you to do this book? 654 00:28:04.630 --> 00:28:06.589 The first draft took me five and a half months. 655 00:28:06.809 --> 00:28:10.430 The second draft took me ten and a half. I mean, total, 656 00:28:10.509 --> 00:28:12.119 ten and a half months. And then we sold it 657 00:28:12.130 --> 00:28:15.599 in under a year. She sold it with, like, five 658 00:28:15.700 --> 00:28:18.740 publishing houses bidding on it. It was an exciting time. 659 00:28:19.039 --> 00:28:20.960 So you have another book behind this, don't you? 660 00:28:21.380 --> 00:28:23.420 That's my hope. I'm just giving myself permission to write 661 00:28:23.460 --> 00:28:24.809 badly every day for one hour. 662 00:28:24.829 --> 00:28:26.670 Are you writing badly right now? 663 00:28:26.710 --> 00:28:30.109 I'm... My daughter's getting married in October. 664 00:28:30.309 --> 00:28:31.539 Oh, really? That's all? 665 00:28:31.559 --> 00:28:33.500 I'm just trying to. And I just got one off 666 00:28:33.539 --> 00:28:35.619 to college. So I'm trying to. And I have a 667 00:28:35.640 --> 00:28:37.960 kitchen being remodeled. So, yes, I'm writing bad books. 668 00:28:37.980 --> 00:28:39.279 Well, that's the one that will set you back is 669 00:28:39.299 --> 00:28:39.839 the kitchen. 670 00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:43.240 But it's in fits and starts. 671 00:28:43.299 --> 00:28:44.980 Are those characters speaking to you, too? 672 00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:50.460 Yes. The trajectory of this book became clear pretty quickly. 673 00:28:50.500 --> 00:28:52.869 The trajectory of the one I'm working on now isn't 674 00:28:52.900 --> 00:28:55.480 as clear. So I'm. It's fits and starts. 675 00:28:55.559 --> 00:29:00.400 Does it follow these people and generations afterwards of these people? 676 00:29:00.460 --> 00:29:05.029 Yeah. The second one is post-World War II, 1949-50. It's 677 00:29:05.730 --> 00:29:08.930 Gertrude's youngest daughter, Mary, who's dying in the beginning of 678 00:29:08.970 --> 00:29:12.759 the book from starvation. It's her as an adult woman 679 00:29:13.480 --> 00:29:16.740 and her story. And she migrates to Kentucky. 680 00:29:18.380 --> 00:29:21.059 Oh, wow. So you brought her to Kentucky. Is this 681 00:29:21.140 --> 00:29:23.660 a little bit of Deb in this story? So she's 682 00:29:23.700 --> 00:29:24.839 going to Kentucky now. 683 00:29:24.900 --> 00:29:26.160 She's going to Kentucky. Wow. 684 00:29:26.220 --> 00:29:26.400 Yeah. 685 00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:29.940 And Highland Park is a, is a, was a neighborhood 686 00:29:30.309 --> 00:29:33.549 right next to the LNN railroad yard. And that neighborhood 687 00:29:33.589 --> 00:29:36.009 consisted of blue collar workers who would work predominantly for 688 00:29:36.049 --> 00:29:38.930 the railroad. It doesn't exist anymore. The city tore it 689 00:29:38.950 --> 00:29:41.140 down to make way for the, an expansion for the airport, 690 00:29:41.740 --> 00:29:45.700 which they never expanded, and many people lost their homes. 691 00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:48.349 But that neighborhood was filled with people from somewhere else, 692 00:29:48.849 --> 00:29:51.750 and all blue-collar. So I'm interested in people who have 693 00:29:51.769 --> 00:29:55.990 been displaced, who go someplace for opportunity and end up 694 00:29:56.029 --> 00:29:56.930 making that their home. 695 00:29:57.730 --> 00:29:59.359 Very interesting. Do you.. 696 00:30:00.279 --> 00:30:00.480 Wow. 697 00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:03.950 Do you ever get, if you will, pigeonholed? Someone will 698 00:30:03.970 --> 00:30:05.450 just look at you and go, what do you know? 699 00:30:05.950 --> 00:30:08.039 And there's just so much good. That happened to me once. 700 00:30:08.099 --> 00:30:11.309 I gave a lecture to these young people on... reporting 701 00:30:11.369 --> 00:30:12.890 I said go ahead and size me up and boy 702 00:30:12.910 --> 00:30:15.039 do they have it just all wrong yeah in terms 703 00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:16.759 of the way I grew up and how I grew 704 00:30:16.900 --> 00:30:19.380 up and my background all wrong oh yeah and the 705 00:30:19.420 --> 00:30:22.759 first thing I said was please park your whatever prejudices 706 00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:24.720 you have leave them at the door because you really 707 00:30:24.779 --> 00:30:27.380 never know it's someone so I suspect this happened to 708 00:30:27.420 --> 00:30:30.299 you so much as you as you go through this 709 00:30:30.380 --> 00:30:32.940 journey with these books they're looking at this cute you 710 00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:34.769 know blonde lady walking in the door and it's like 711 00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:37.819 You have no idea, you know, why I'm writing this 712 00:30:37.859 --> 00:30:39.480 and why I have to write it about all of you. 713 00:30:39.500 --> 00:30:42.519 I feel that way about my whole

career. I feel like, 714 00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:45.660 you know, I've been a little bit out of place 715 00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:48.009 my whole career because of the way I look or 716 00:30:48.029 --> 00:30:52.009 the way I sound. It's easy to write off someone who. 717 00:30:51.930 --> 00:30:53.329 Looks like me or sounds like me. And it's important 718 00:30:53.369 --> 00:30:56.390 not to. And leave that at the door. Those prejudices. Everyone, 719 00:30:56.970 --> 00:30:58.509 leave the prejudices at the door. 720 00:30:58.529 --> 00:30:59.109 Wow. 721 00:30:59.309 --> 00:31:01.740 That's pretty amazing. I so enjoy talking to you. What 722 00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:04.420 else can you tell us about the book to tease 723 00:31:04.500 --> 00:31:07.980 it a little bit for people who– because I can't 724 00:31:08.039 --> 00:31:10.359 say enough about this. I told you I've told lots 725 00:31:10.420 --> 00:31:12.500 of friends. I'm getting my word out there. 726 00:31:12.579 --> 00:31:14.559 I think of it as a southern gothic adventure. 727 00:31:14.579 --> 00:31:15.460 It is an adventure. 728 00:31:15.500 --> 00:31:17.920 They talk about it as historical fiction, and I'm happy 729 00:31:17.960 --> 00:31:20.670 with whatever sells the books, and I'm happy for people 730 00:31:20.710 --> 00:31:23.009 to read the book. But for me, it's an adventure, 731 00:31:23.410 --> 00:31:27.430 and it can be dark. But at the end, there's 732 00:31:27.490 --> 00:31:31.119 this optimism. There's this strength. There's this fortitude. There's this 733 00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:35.559 ability to overcome in all of these women. In all 734 00:31:35.599 --> 00:31:37.730 of us. In every woman I know. And I grew 735 00:31:37.750 --> 00:31:38.809 up with some strong women. 736 00:31:39.309 --> 00:31:41.569 Yeah. And we have to always– I was talking to 737 00:31:41.609 --> 00:31:45.019 my previous guest. We can never give that up. There's 738 00:31:45.059 --> 00:31:48.660 always been this fight, this tug with women. And I 739 00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:51.559 presume there always will be. When will the day come 740 00:31:51.579 --> 00:31:54.200 where there's just equality across the board? I was I 741 00:31:54.220 --> 00:31:58.269 was talking earlier how Melinda Gates just recently said it'll 742 00:31:58.289 --> 00:32:02.329 take about 250 years. She had a reason for that. 743 00:32:02.349 --> 00:32:04.549 And I'm thinking it's not that bad considering how long 744 00:32:04.569 --> 00:32:07.710 we've been around. There's been no equality. But she based 745 00:32:07.730 --> 00:32:10.549 that on economic reasons and cultural reasons and all kinds 746 00:32:10.589 --> 00:32:12.579 of things. And I thought, hmm, I actually want to 747 00:32:12.599 --> 00:32:13.339 look more into that. 748 00:32:13.359 --> 00:32:16.259 I grew up in the 70s. And, you know, when 749 00:32:16.279 --> 00:32:18.640 my parents got divorced, there was this wave of feminism 750 00:32:18.680 --> 00:32:21.720 that came through. Women were burning their bras. Everybody on 751 00:32:21.740 --> 00:32:24.299 the street got divorced. You know, I thought, whoa, look 752 00:32:24.339 --> 00:32:27.740 at this. Women wanted equal opportunity, equal rights. And I thought, OK, 753 00:32:27.759 --> 00:32:29.380 that's it. Now we've got it. 754 00:32:29.380 --> 00:32:32.299 Yeah, I know. Not at all. And when you go 755 00:32:32.339 --> 00:32:35.410 and research a book like this, you realize definitely not. Yeah, no. 756 00:32:35.710 --> 00:32:38.299 But we have so much in common with these characters. 757 00:32:38.490 --> 00:32:41.500 I know I saw myself in each one of them. Good. 758 00:32:42.509 --> 00:32:44.309 Anyone who reads this book, and by the way, this 759 00:32:44.349 --> 00:32:47.210 is a book for men and women. It's a historical perspective, 760 00:32:47.230 --> 00:32:49.740 which is what I love about it. You're deep into 761 00:32:49.799 --> 00:32:53.640 the history of the area. Your research is spot on. 762 00:32:53.779 --> 00:32:54.210 Yeah, thank you. 763 00:32:54.220 --> 00:32:55.059 You do it all yourself? 764 00:32:55.079 --> 00:32:56.640 Yeah, I did it all by myself, yes. 765 00:32:56.720 --> 00:32:58.279 You don't have somebody saying, oh, by the way. 766 00:32:58.299 --> 00:32:59.809 No. It's the best books that come to me. I 767 00:32:59.809 --> 00:33:02.390 just follow my interest. I just follow my nose. And 768 00:33:02.430 --> 00:33:06.329 I really am happy with a lot of the people 769 00:33:06.390 --> 00:33:08.009 on the back of the book that give kudos to 770 00:33:08.049 --> 00:33:08.849 the book are men. 771 00:33:08.869 --> 00:33:08.940 Yes. 772 00:33:09.769 --> 00:33:10.410 Our male authors. 773 00:33:10.430 --> 00:33:10.910 I noticed that. 774 00:33:10.970 --> 00:33:13.700 Men authors whom I love and respect. 775 00:33:14.339 --> 00:33:16.480 Yep. Robert Butler. Yeah. 776 00:33:16.539 --> 00:33:21.119 Mark Bowden. Jonathan Miles. These are writers who– and I 777 00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:23.720 have so many women writers I love and adore and respect. 778 00:33:23.769 --> 00:33:25.329 But I didn't want this just to be a book 779 00:33:25.369 --> 00:33:28.450 for women. It's a book for everyone because it's about humanity. 780 00:33:28.910 --> 00:33:32.769 And there is no gender in that. So I wanted 781 00:33:32.829 --> 00:33:33.529 men and women. 782 00:33:33.750 --> 00:33:35.819 Remember that. It is about humanity. By the way, I 783 00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:38.819 even sectioned that off because I noticed their comments. And 784 00:33:38.839 --> 00:33:40.640 I noticed that there were men, and they actually got 785 00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:44.880 the book spot on. It's a fantastic read. Please, everyone, 786 00:33:44.940 --> 00:33:48.779 I implore you, male, female, whatever, but you'll find yourself 787 00:33:48.819 --> 00:33:50.819 in this book. And I really mean that. 788 00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:51.640 Thank you. 789 00:33:51.660 -->

00:33:54.200 And I felt it, and I thank you for writing it. 790 00:33:54.289 --> 00:33:56.910 Yes. Well, thank you for having me today. I appreciate it. Yeah. 791 00:33:57.069 --> 00:33:59.210 Anything else you'd like to add before I let you go? 792 00:33:59.230 --> 00:34:02.420 No. Just please buy the book and read it, and 793 00:34:02.440 --> 00:34:04.920 I hope you like it. And I'm available for book clubs. Oh, 794 00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:06.640 and I'm going to be at the Last Bookstore in 795 00:34:06.700 --> 00:34:10.320 downtown L.A. on September 30th with E.R. Ramsepour, who wrote 796 00:34:10.400 --> 00:34:13.699 this beautiful book, The Ventriloquists. And she and I are 797 00:34:13.719 --> 00:34:15.380 going to be in conversation. So I'll be talking about 798 00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:16.719 my book. She'll be talking about her book. 799 00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:17.739 Well, tell me when that is again. 800 00:34:18.050 --> 00:34:21.969 September 30th at 730 at the Last Bookstore in downtown L.A. 801 00:34:22.030 --> 00:34:23.789 I want to do that. Also, there's a bookstore near 802 00:34:23.829 --> 00:34:25.849 where I live, and sometimes we do talks there. I'm 803 00:34:25.869 --> 00:34:26.989 going to see if maybe you want to go. 804 00:34:27.010 --> 00:34:27.110 Great. 805 00:34:27.150 --> 00:34:29.849 Wouldn't that be fun? Yeah. And I enjoy doing that 806 00:34:29.889 --> 00:34:32.750 very much. We bring in the authors. Yeah. And then 807 00:34:32.769 --> 00:34:34.610 I interview the authors. I love doing that. It's just 808 00:34:34.659 --> 00:34:35.469 really a lot of fun. 809 00:34:35.530 --> 00:34:36.090 I'm available. 810 00:34:36.110 --> 00:34:38.159 So yeah, I'm going to do that as well. Well, 811 00:34:38.199 --> 00:34:38.739 thanks so much. 812 00:34:38.760 --> 00:34:39.340 Yes, thank you. 813 00:34:39.420 --> 00:34:41.159 And by the way, shout out to my friend John 814 00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:43.820 Kelly because he introduced us. Thank you so much. 815 00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:46.579 And John also gave me my first baby dog, a 816 00:34:46.599 --> 00:34:47.619 bulldog named Molly. 817 00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:48.320 He did? 818 00:34:48.340 --> 00:34:49.000 As a wedding gift. 819 00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:51.019 Oh, what a sweet man. He's always been a nice guy, 820 00:34:51.059 --> 00:34:54.130 that John Kelly. John, thank you so much. I appreciate it. 821 00:34:54.469 --> 00:34:57.760 And please, everybody, call your daughter home. It's great. And 822 00:34:57.780 --> 00:35:00.639 if the opening, like, paragraph doesn't get you about the gator, 823 00:35:00.679 --> 00:35:02.880 I don't know what will. So thank you for tuning 824 00:35:02.900 --> 00:35:05.139 in to Deborah Cobelt Live. I do want to mention 825 00:35:05.179 --> 00:35:09.469 today is 9-11. We spoke about that earlier. And if 826 00:35:09.489 --> 00:35:11.690 you could just take a moment, just one moment, and 827 00:35:11.750 --> 00:35:16.110 think about... how that's changed our country from that moment 828 00:35:16.269 --> 00:35:20.099 on and actually our world. So I just want to give, um, 829 00:35:20.380 --> 00:35:22.360 my thoughts out to all the people who have been 830 00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:26.340 affected and are still affected from that horrible, um, that horrible, 831 00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:28.980 horrible day. Uh, thank you so much for tuning in. 832 00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:32.769 We are on Apple podcasts. We're on iHeartRadio. We're kind 833 00:35:32.789 --> 00:35:36.710 of everywhere. Uh, Spreaker, Stitcher. I don't know where else. Um, YouTube, 834 00:35:36.869 --> 00:35:40.409 big following on YouTube. Um, Wherever you get your podcasts, 835 00:35:40.429 --> 00:35:43.039 your audio ones, your video ones, you'll find us, Debra 836 00:35:43.059 --> 00:35:45.900 Cobell Live. Thanks so much for tuning in, and we'll 837 00:35:45.980 --> 00:35:46.579 see you next time. 838 00:35:46.619 --> 00:35:46.760 Bye.