النص الكامل لحلقة Internal Advisors: Elevating Consulting Through Effective Questioning

00:03:38,912 --> 00:03:39,544 Nice. 81 00:03:39,672 --> 00:03:42,488 You know, and taking your own medicine being certainly different 82 00:03:42,544 --> 00:03:44,540 than breathing your own exhaust. 83 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:48,248 Well, we'll see. 84 00:03:48,304 --> 00:03:49,460 Let's get into it. 85 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:55,864 Ian. 86 00:03:55,912 --> 00:03:59,976 I found it really interesting that Weinberg is discussing these 87 00:04:00,048 --> 00:04:03,624 secrets from his, his brother in law Marvin as part of a discussion 88 00:04:03,672 --> 00:04:06,808 on being a fake effective when you don't know what you're doing. 89 00:04:06,864 --> 00:04:11,624 As he says, sometimes being out of your kind of out of your area 90 00:04:11,792 --> 00:04:13,976 and out of your depth here. 91 00:04:14,128 --> 00:04:19,928 But it's also a discussion about the fact that, as he says, 92 00:04:19,984 --> 00:04:25,048 consultants usually start as specialists and are often called 93 00:04:25,104 --> 00:04:26,552 in as specialists. 94 00:04:26,696 --> 00:04:32,936 But the problem with that is that the toughest problems don't 95 00:04:32,968 --> 00:04:34,888 have labels attached to them. 96 00:04:35,024 --> 00:04:37,928 So oftentimes, and he estimates it's at least three quarters 97 00:04:37,944 --> 00:04:42,104 of the time, the specialists that are called in are not actually 98 00:04:42,192 --> 00:04:45,592 the specialists needed for this job. 99 00:04:45,696 --> 00:04:48,152 It's like if I really knew what the problem was, I might have 100 00:04:48,176 --> 00:04:49,080 called somebody differently. 101 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:55,400 However, good consultants, he says, aren't just specialists, they're 102 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:56,712 problem solvers. 103 00:04:56,856 --> 00:05:01,886 And they have a bag of tricks that can actually be generalized 104 00:05:01,998 --> 00:05:04,542 across multiple different specialties. 105 00:05:04,606 --> 00:05:06,734 Just expressed a little bit differently. 106 00:05:06,862 --> 00:05:12,510 And I want to tell a little bit of a story about how I ran into 107 00:05:12,550 --> 00:05:15,210 that specifically and in the medical industry. 108 00:05:15,750 --> 00:05:20,750 And then let's get into these things and unpack them a little bit. 109 00:05:20,870 --> 00:05:23,950 So I ran into this with my daughter Meredith, and it was in 110 00:05:23,990 --> 00:05:27,602 the early days, well, kind, kind of pre, the early days of Lyme 111 00:05:27,666 --> 00:05:28,402 disease. 112 00:05:28,546 --> 00:05:34,802 Lyme was known, but not widely known and, you know, the fatal thing 113 00:05:34,826 --> 00:05:38,530 of anything in the US There was not an insurance payback because 114 00:05:38,570 --> 00:05:40,290 there wasn't a diagnosis code. 115 00:05:40,450 --> 00:05:46,706 So she went over the course of many months to many specialists. 116 00:05:46,898 --> 00:05:50,578 And what I found was exactly the joke that I made earlier. 117 00:05:50,714

--> 00:05:52,626 The specialist who says, yep, not mine. 118 00:05:52,658 --> 00:05:54,670 Here's your bill, good luck. 119 00:05:54,830 --> 00:06:01,742 And what we ran into was a specialist who could act like a generalist. 120 00:06:01,886 --> 00:06:07,518 And even more near and dear to my heart, somebody who was a consultant 121 00:06:07,694 --> 00:06:09,662 who also was a human. 122 00:06:09,846 --> 00:06:13,534 Now, the humanity, I think was, was kind of brought to the fore 123 00:06:13,622 --> 00:06:18,398 because Meredith reminded him of his daughter, same age, shared 124 00:06:18,414 --> 00:06:19,518 a lot of characteristics. 125 00:06:19,614 --> 00:06:24,616 So I think even though it in his area, quote unquote, he didn't 126 00:06:24,648 --> 00:06:25,464 see anything. 127 00:06:25,592 --> 00:06:30,760 He gathered all the tests, all the diagnosis, all the comments from 128 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,456 all the other specialists and then tried to piece them together, 129 00:06:34,528 --> 00:06:39,752 that problem solver and apply more generalist rubrics to say, well, 130 00:06:39,776 --> 00:06:40,872 wait a minute, what fits? 131 00:06:40,936 --> 00:06:42,184 What doesn't fit? 132 00:06:42,312 --> 00:06:44,248 You know, what, what are we seeing here? 133 00:06:44,304 --> 00:06:48,552 And actually came across some things that got us going towards 134 00:06:48,616 --> 00:06:50,760 a real solution there here. 135 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:56,552 So these characteristics of good consultants, absolutely on target 136 00:06:56,656 --> 00:06:57,560 from Jerry. 137 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:02,392 And even better when we're humans consulting to humans here. 138 00:07:02,496 --> 00:07:03,624 Well, fantastic. 139 00:07:03,672 --> 00:07:06,760 Let's get back to Marvin secrets, Ian. 140 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:11,576 Right, Mike, let's read them out all together as a block of 6, 141 00:07:11,648 --> 00:07:13,880 and then we will dig into them individually. 142 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,888 So let's give you an idea of where we're headed with Marvin secrets. 143 00:07:16,984 --> 00:07:18,420 Secret number one. 144 00:07:18,940 --> 00:07:23,476 90% of all illness cures itself with absolutely no intervention 145 00:07:23,508 --> 00:07:24,532 from the doctor. 146 00:07:24,676 --> 00:07:27,812 That's going to shake things up a little bit, Mike, in the world 147 00:07:27,836 --> 00:07:28,404 of consulting. 148 00:07:28,452 --> 00:07:30,132 How about secret number two? 149 00:07:30,316 --> 00:07:34,340 Secret number two, I'd say deal gently with systems that should 150 00:07:34,380 --> 00:07:36,440 be able to cure themselves. 151 00:07:36,940 --> 00:07:39,204 Expressed this way repeatedly. 152 00:07:39,252 --> 00:07:44,004 Curing a system that can cure itself will eventually create a system 153 00:07:44,092 --> 00:07:45,080 that can't. 154 00:07:45,470 --> 00:07:46,310 Hmm. 155 00:07:46,470 --> 00:07:50,810 Okay, again, that might put a cat amongst a few consulting

pigeons. 156 00:07:51,150 --> 00:07:55,254 Secret number three, in the world of medicine says every prescription 157 00:07:55,302 --> 00:08:00,598 has two parts, the medicine itself and the method of ensuring 158 00:08:00,694 --> 00:08:01,970 correct use. 159 00:08:02,270 --> 00:08:05,270 Ah, okay, I'm hearing some consulting advice coming through 160 00:08:05,310 --> 00:08:05,798 here. 161 00:08:05,934 --> 00:08:06,822 Secret number four. 162 00:08:06,846 --> 00:08:07,702 What does that say? 163 00:08:07,806 --> 00:08:12,130 Yeah, it says if what they've been doing hasn't solved the problem, 164 00:08:12,620 --> 00:08:15,556 tell them to do something else. 165 00:08:15,748 --> 00:08:17,236 Oh, okay. 166 00:08:17,348 --> 00:08:18,800 Secret number five. 167 00:08:19,100 --> 00:08:20,212 I like this one. 168 00:08:20,316 --> 00:08:24,240 Make sure they pay you enough so that they'll do what you say. 169 00:08:25,020 --> 00:08:27,732 Which is not something I'd expect to hear from a doctor in my 170 00:08:27,756 --> 00:08:30,148 world, but I think in your world, Mike, it could well be. 171 00:08:30,284 --> 00:08:31,412 Yes, absolutely. 172 00:08:31,476 --> 00:08:37,140 And, well, I'm reminded of somebody we worked with in Ireland 173 00:08:37,300 --> 00:08:42,754 who said his grandmother was really upset because under the new 174 00:08:42,932 --> 00:08:45,254 in health insurance she was going to have, there was going to 175 00:08:45,262 --> 00:08:46,918 be no charge for some things. 176 00:08:47,054 --> 00:08:48,886 And she said, well that's ridiculous. 177 00:08:48,998 --> 00:08:51,542 If they don't charge me something, I won't take it. 178 00:08:51,646 --> 00:08:55,254 And I thought, wow, wise woman, wise woman here. 179 00:08:55,342 --> 00:08:59,446 Anyways, the last one is secret number six. 180 00:08:59,598 --> 00:09:04,566 Know how pays much less than know when. 181 00:09:04,718 --> 00:09:07,078 Oh, right. 182 00:09:07,134 --> 00:09:09,862 So we're going to be thinking about clients attitudes to consultants, 183 00:09:09,926 --> 00:09:12,358 consultants attitude to clients, problems and everybody's 184 00:09:12,374 --> 00:09:13,414 attitude to each other. 185 00:09:13,502 --> 00:09:16,082 There's going to be something for us learn, I think a little bit 186 00:09:16,186 --> 00:09:17,350 from Marvin. 187 00:09:18,010 --> 00:09:20,722 These are all expressed, as you say Mike, in terms of the world 188 00:09:20,746 --> 00:09:21,830 of a physician. 189 00:09:22,730 --> 00:09:27,550 Clearly the idea is that lots of these aphorisms stand true for 190 00:09:28,330 --> 00:09:30,946 engineers, accountants, lawyers, and of course the subject 191 00:09:30,978 --> 00:09:32,274 of the book, consultants. 192 00:09:32,322 --> 00:09:35,442 So let's hear me go through them one by one, let's decode them 193 00:09:35,466 --> 00:09:36,082 a little bit. 194 00:09:36,186 --> 00:09:37,470 Let's get into it. 195 00:09:43,340 --> 00:09:47,172 You remember number one here, 90% of all illnesses cure themselves 196 00:09:47,236 --> 00:09:50,564 with absolutely no intervention from a doctor. 197 00:09:50,692 --> 00:09:54,980 So in a doctor's world, as long as you in fact do no harm, the 198 00:09:55,020 --> 00:09:57,124 illness is likely to cure itself. 199 00:09:57,252 --> 00:10:00,644 So if I was listening to an engineering consultant with a lot 200 00:10:00,652 --> 00:10:03,652 of great insight and experience, they might say if it 201 00:10:03,676 --> 00:10:05,460 ain't broke, don't fix it. 202 00:10:05,580 --> 00:10:06,100 No. 203 00:10:06,220 --> 00:10:11,326 And a system that's not broken will fix itself. 204 00:10:11,518 --> 00:10:12,250 Right. 205 00:10:12,710 --> 00:10:17,902 Which sounds like a very Zen enlightened approach to medicine 206 00:10:17,966 --> 00:10:18,878 and to humans. 207 00:10:18,974 --> 00:10:22,030 I wonder how it applies to consulting projects. 208 00:10:22,190 --> 00:10:25,246 When I first read this I thought, yeah, hahaha, there's a 209 00:10:25,318 --> 00:10:28,558 salutary lesson for consultants not to be too optimistic 210 00:10:28,574 --> 00:10:30,410 about the value of what they're going to do. 211 00:10:30,710 --> 00:10:34,334 If you're a client and you've just spent a million on consultants, 212 00:10:34,382 --> 00:10:36,010 and then the problem got better. 213 00:10:36,550 --> 00:10:40,014 This law of regression to the mean that things fix themselves, 214 00:10:40,062 --> 00:10:42,142 this law means that it may well be that the million that you 215 00:10:42,166 --> 00:10:46,062 spent didn't cause the improvement, that you don't know 216 00:10:46,086 --> 00:10:47,870 whether it actually paid back or not. 217 00:10:47,990 --> 00:10:50,862 But I want to go to the other side of the equation, Mike. 218 00:10:50,926 --> 00:10:54,382 He's saying 90% of problems get better by themselves. 219 00:10:54,526 --> 00:10:57,822 That says if I'm a consultant charging for advice, it's going to 220 00:10:57,846 --> 00:10:59,294 really help me and the client. 221 00:10:59,342 --> 00:11:03,050 If I'm sure as we get started that the problem we're working on 222 00:11:03,090 --> 00:11:08,250 right now is one of those 10% that for sure won't get better by 223 00:11:08,290 --> 00:11:08,730 itself. 224 00:11:08,810 --> 00:11:11,194 So there's real value in knowing the diagnosis. 225 00:11:11,242 --> 00:11:13,802 I think this is going to be a theme through quite a few of these 226 00:11:13,826 --> 00:11:15,110 bits of advice here. 227 00:11:15,570 --> 00:11:20,122 So we should be skeptical of easy Claims from consultants that 228 00:11:20,146 --> 00:11:22,618 they at some time in the past have saved the day. 229 00:11:22,754 --> 00:11:25,978 But as consultants, we also need to be careful and serious about 230 00:11:26,114 --> 00:11:29,234 taking part in the diagnosis, really understanding what are the 231 00:11:29,242 --> 00:11:31,234 consequences of the problems that we uncover. 232 00:11:31,362

--> 00:11:32,594 What are the benefits? 233 00:11:32,722 --> 00:11:35,506 What some people sometimes call addressing the so what? 234 00:11:35,578 --> 00:11:36,194 Question. 235 00:11:36,362 --> 00:11:40,466 Well, and it's interesting to me, I don't want to roll over that, 236 00:11:40,538 --> 00:11:43,794 but it also reminded me of the old consulting joke that consultants 237 00:11:43,842 --> 00:11:46,882 come in, borrow your watch and tell you the time. 238 00:11:46,986 --> 00:11:47,442 Yeah. 239 00:11:47,506 --> 00:11:51,346 But if we assume that the client's confused about the time, 240 00:11:51,418 --> 00:11:55,090 and in fact they borrow your watches, tell you the time, and you 241 00:11:55,130 --> 00:11:57,102 now are no longer confused, they. 242 00:11:57,146 --> 00:11:58,438 That's really helpful. 243 00:11:58,534 --> 00:12:01,302 And I think sometimes that's exactly what happens. 244 00:12:01,366 --> 00:12:04,598 That rather than having to make great big changes, the fact 245 00:12:04,654 --> 00:12:10,182 that people came in, people listen, people consolidated it, got 246 00:12:10,206 --> 00:12:15,430 fed back from a third party objective source, it actually now 247 00:12:15,470 --> 00:12:17,078 works when it didn't before. 248 00:12:17,214 --> 00:12:21,590 But as you say, there is a great warning to take away here because 249 00:12:21,630 --> 00:12:24,614 of that 10% that is not gonna cure itself. 250 00:12:24,742 --> 00:12:26,250 Yeah, absolutely. 251 00:12:26,670 --> 00:12:30,646 So now that we've dealt with problems that might fix themselves, 252 00:12:30,838 --> 00:12:32,198 let's dig a little bit deeper. 253 00:12:32,214 --> 00:12:34,998 Let's go up to the level of the organization, because Marvin's 254 00:12:35,014 --> 00:12:37,330 secret number two is up at that level. 255 00:12:37,710 --> 00:12:40,822 One phrasing of it says you should deal gently with systems that 256 00:12:40,846 --> 00:12:41,766 can cure themselves. 257 00:12:41,878 --> 00:12:44,390 The consequence of this, though, the real secret number two 258 00:12:44,430 --> 00:12:45,206 says this. 259 00:12:45,358 --> 00:12:51,158 Repeatedly curing a system that can cure itself will eventually 260 00:12:51,254 --> 00:12:52,970 create a system that can't. 261 00:12:53,590 --> 00:12:56,686 And I first read this and I thought, this is trying to repeat 262 00:12:56,718 --> 00:13:00,686 the lesson of, you know, medication resistance in antibiotics 263 00:13:00,718 --> 00:13:01,070 or something. 264 00:13:01,110 --> 00:13:02,558 How does that relate to consulting? 265 00:13:02,654 --> 00:13:07,694 But actually it is possible, right, for us to repeatedly lure 266 00:13:07,742 --> 00:13:10,526 the client into thinking that what they really need next is another 267 00:13:10,598 --> 00:13:13,130 fancy solution from us of the other next problem. 268 00:13:13,510 --> 00:13:16,942 Yeah, I remember so clearly. 269 00:13:17,086 --> 00:13:22,014 And this, this came to me when we were bidding for a piece of strategy 270 00:13:22,062 --> 00:13:25,898 work from a firm that was kind of outside our specialties. 271 00:13:26,074 --> 00:13:30,954 It was a really top global company. 272 00:13:31,122 --> 00:13:34,234 And I was thinking we were kind of brand new to the strategy 273 00:13:34,282 --> 00:13:34,842 piece of work. 274 00:13:34,866 --> 00:13:36,106 We weren't well known. 275 00:13:36,178 --> 00:13:39,978 How in the world, you know, are we really just a third bid here? 276 00:13:40,034 --> 00:13:42,346 You know, kind of procurements right off. 277 00:13:42,498 --> 00:13:48,570 But it was fascinating to me that this company had used the same 278 00:13:48,690 --> 00:13:54,156 boutique consulting firm over and over again in some really big 279 00:13:54,228 --> 00:13:55,840 strategy decisions. 280 00:13:56,980 --> 00:13:58,332 They were kind of famous. 281 00:13:58,396 --> 00:14:02,588 They were the stuff of a Harvard business case study. 282 00:14:02,644 --> 00:14:06,956 They were also the stuff of books written by the consulting firm. 283 00:14:07,068 --> 00:14:10,412 But the interesting thing is, if you continued on to follow the 284 00:14:10,436 --> 00:14:15,004 rest of the story, this firm always ended up in the ditch again. 285 00:14:15,092 --> 00:14:19,228 You know, another year or two or three down and they would call 286 00:14:19,284 --> 00:14:23,180 their saviors the boutique consulting firm in again. 287 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:25,900 Brand new, big win. 288 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,896 But boom, you follow ahead again, back in the ditch again. 289 00:14:31,048 --> 00:14:35,312 So our pitch to get the strategy was to point this out and 290 00:14:35,336 --> 00:14:39,120 it had happened over a long period of time and you had to kind 291 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:43,840 of look at that and have the memory to think back to realize, 292 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:47,312 what's this pattern now these high points are always followed by 293 00:14:47,336 --> 00:14:48,224 these low points. 294 00:14:48,312 --> 00:14:52,480 And I do think it was a case of exactly what you've just said 295 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:57,230 and that that pitch in fact won us that business, right? 296 00:14:57,350 --> 00:15:00,382 Weaning your client off this kind of codependent savior thing 297 00:15:00,406 --> 00:15:03,486 that they've got going on with the other really, really fancy consulting 298 00:15:03,518 --> 00:15:04,110 firm. 299 00:15:04,270 --> 00:15:07,118 This is sort of the dark side of the consulting industry. 300 00:15:07,254 --> 00:15:11,230 So I guess I don't want people to think this is a risk around every 301 00:15:11,270 --> 00:15:14,078 corner, but it is a risk where there's a long term relationship 302 00:15:14,094 --> 00:15:15,614 with one consulting firm. 303 00:15:15,742 --> 00:15:20,936 And we find ourselves repeatedly getting not only deeply 304 00:15:20,968 --> 00:15:23,848 embedded in the organization and being trusted, which is

great, 305 00:15:23,984 --> 00:15:27,448 but in effect teaching the leaders and teaching the organization 306 00:15:27,624 --> 00:15:30,632 to not only that they can't help themselves, but that they are 307 00:15:30,656 --> 00:15:33,944 going to be triggered to stumble into a series of new problems, 308 00:15:33,992 --> 00:15:37,224 each of them requiring yet more outside consulting help. 309 00:15:37,312 --> 00:15:41,096 There are books written about these kind of toxic consultant client 310 00:15:41,128 --> 00:15:41,752 relationships. 311 00:15:41,816 --> 00:15:44,404 Like I say, Mike, I think they are the minority, but. 312 00:15:44,432 --> 00:15:46,524 But it's a salutary thing to think about. 313 00:15:46,692 --> 00:15:49,628 Hopefully none of us is going to end up there that often. 314 00:15:49,684 --> 00:15:52,748 But history says it's not impossible. 315 00:15:52,924 --> 00:15:56,988 I can remember in a firm that I worked with one particular client 316 00:15:57,084 --> 00:15:58,652 really, really badly needed help. 317 00:15:58,676 --> 00:16:04,812 They got into a big regulatory mess and they hired the firm that 318 00:16:04,836 --> 00:16:08,076 I was working for via one particular partner to do all manner 319 00:16:08,108 --> 00:16:10,524 of things to help get them back on track after this regulatory 320 00:16:10,572 --> 00:16:11,200 problem. 321 00:16:11,380 --> 00:16:15,112 And a regulatory problem ballooned into being some manufacturing 322 00:16:15,176 --> 00:16:17,896 problems and some research problems and some marketing problems. 323 00:16:17,928 --> 00:16:22,872 And all of a sudden there were billable hours through the roof. 324 00:16:22,936 --> 00:16:25,992 And there were many shiny rental cars in the parking lot of 325 00:16:26,016 --> 00:16:29,176 this particular firm, all occupied by consultants who are piling 326 00:16:29,208 --> 00:16:31,624 in to fix all of these great and important problems. 327 00:16:31,752 --> 00:16:36,120 Until one day the CEO of this company finally got the sack. 328 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,436 And the new CEO came and said, what are all these great big invoices 329 00:16:39,468 --> 00:16:41,468 that I'm getting billed here from this consulting firm? 330 00:16:41,564 --> 00:16:44,796 And who are all the folks in the shiny rental cars in the parking 331 00:16:44,828 --> 00:16:45,308 lot? 332 00:16:45,444 --> 00:16:50,220 And it took an emperor's New clothes kind of moment to say, hold 333 00:16:50,260 --> 00:16:50,956 on a minute. 334 00:16:51,068 --> 00:16:53,100 We've got two dependent on each other here. 335 00:16:53,220 --> 00:16:56,524 Rather than fixing the problem, we are continuously extending 336 00:16:56,572 --> 00:17:00,364 the problem profitably, but not properly. 337 00:17:00,492 --> 00:17:00,940 Yeah. 338 00:17:01,020 --> 00:17:04,688 Jerry makes a passing comment in this section, and I think it's 339 00:17:04,704 --> 00:17:05,104 so true. 340 00:17:05,152 --> 00:17:08,400 They said, not only are consultants guilty of this, not only 341 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,376 are doctors guilty of this, any parent that continues to wipe 342 00:17:11,408 --> 00:17:14,528 their child's nose past the age four is guilty of this right 343 00:17:14,584 --> 00:17:15,952 to learn to wipe their own nose. 344 00:17:16,016 --> 00:17:16,576 Right. 345 00:17:16,728 --> 00:17:20,672 And as anybody, you know, I'm thinking back to my days in teaching 346 00:17:20,736 --> 00:17:24,368 at university and in the business school, seeing these really 347 00:17:24,424 --> 00:17:27,840 capable young people whose parents are now intervening on their 348 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,328 behalf, something about their career or class choice or something 349 00:17:31,384 --> 00:17:33,340 going, stop, please stop. 350 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:41,936 Well, in number three, every prescription has two parts, the medicine 351 00:17:41,968 --> 00:17:45,900 and the method of ensuring the correct use. 352 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:53,744 And I can't help but remember, you know, walking into clients who've 353 00:17:53,792 --> 00:17:55,088 asked us to come in. 354 00:17:55,224 --> 00:17:57,744 We've done, you know, work with them before. 355 00:17:57,832 --> 00:18:02,040 They're inviting us in sometimes, no bidding to come do 356 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:03,096 work for them again. 357 00:18:03,168 --> 00:18:07,512 And we're having that initial great, good to see you again conversation. 358 00:18:07,656 --> 00:18:13,288 And yes, I remember the work on Project 124, and that was so good. 359 00:18:13,424 --> 00:18:17,432 And the client reaching back, pulling that report off the shelf, 360 00:18:17,576 --> 00:18:20,184 blowing the dust off it and going, that was. 361 00:18:20,272 --> 00:18:21,848 That was a great report. 362 00:18:21,984 --> 00:18:25,144 Only to chat a little bit more and find out they never actually 363 00:18:25,232 --> 00:18:26,408 did anything with it. 364 00:18:26,544 --> 00:18:28,810 Very impressed, loved it. 365 00:18:28,930 --> 00:18:30,138 Everybody was happy. 366 00:18:30,234 --> 00:18:30,490 Great. 367 00:18:30,530 --> 00:18:33,242 Client sat wasn't implemented. 368 00:18:33,386 --> 00:18:38,470 Ah, the medicine and the method of ensuring correct use. 369 00:18:39,410 --> 00:18:39,866 Right. 370 00:18:39,938 --> 00:18:42,874 And this is an interesting conversation that gets us into the 371 00:18:42,882 --> 00:18:44,410 territory of specialization. 372 00:18:44,490 --> 00:18:47,898 For example, is it okay to specialize in just doing strategy 373 00:18:47,914 --> 00:18:51,722 or just doing diagnosis work versus specializing in just doing 374 00:18:51,826 --> 00:18:53,152 implementation work? 375 00:18:53,306 --> 00:18:57,556 And I can think of a dozen reasons why it's useful the majority 376 00:18:57,588 --> 00:19:01,700 of times to specialize in terms of skill and approach and business 377 00:19:01,740 --> 00:19:04,644 development and client relationships, to

specialize in diagnosis 378 00:19:04,692 --> 00:19:07,028 rather than implementation and vice versa. 379 00:19:07,204 --> 00:19:09,604 But it's also a bit of a trap. 380 00:19:09,732 --> 00:19:12,948 You can't do good diagnosis, you can't do good strategy, I don't 381 00:19:12,964 --> 00:19:17,444 think, unless somebody in the team can also interpret what implementation 382 00:19:17,572 --> 00:19:18,452 is going to look like. 383 00:19:18,476 --> 00:19:20,820 And that's, I think, what was missing in the story that you told 384 00:19:20,860 --> 00:19:21,440 there. 385 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,344 Similarly, I don't think you can do good implementation unless 386 00:19:24,392 --> 00:19:27,240 you've got a really good skeptical eye for what the business 387 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,352 case was, for what the diagnosis was. 388 00:19:29,536 --> 00:19:33,000 To put it another way, Mike, simply answering the what should 389 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:38,184 you do and why question is not useful on its own unless somebody 390 00:19:38,232 --> 00:19:42,744 at some Point also asks how, like, if we get there, how are we 391 00:19:42,752 --> 00:19:43,940 going to take it forward? 392 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:51,846 But, you know, it also strikes me it's so important about understanding 393 00:19:51,958 --> 00:19:54,758 what's in the mind of your client. 394 00:19:54,934 --> 00:19:59,286 You know, not just, oh, I'm really happy with this, or I'm persuaded 395 00:19:59,318 --> 00:20:01,846 by what you said, but why? 396 00:20:01,918 --> 00:20:03,750 And what are they actually thinking? 397 00:20:03,830 --> 00:20:08,790 I remember running into this in my university days when I was 398 00:20:08,830 --> 00:20:13,910 on the receiving line of calls to the Human Sexuality Counseling 399 00:20:13,990 --> 00:20:14,810 Hotline. 400 00:20:15,150 --> 00:20:16,438 And this is going to be good. 401 00:20:16,574 --> 00:20:17,030 Yeah. 402 00:20:17,110 --> 00:20:17,970 I had. 403 00:20:19,150 --> 00:20:24,022 I thought that the presented problem was somebody's skepticism 404 00:20:24,086 --> 00:20:27,078 about the effectiveness of birth control pills. 405 00:20:27,174 --> 00:20:30,726 And we had a nice conversation. 406 00:20:30,838 --> 00:20:34,582 We went back and forth about the statistics about the relative 407 00:20:34,646 --> 00:20:37,450 efficiency of different methods of contraception. 408 00:20:37,790 --> 00:20:40,134 And I thought we were all good. 409 00:20:40,302 --> 00:20:45,456 And her final or her next to last comment was, I just find that 410 00:20:45,528 --> 00:20:50,256 so hard to believe because every time I stand up, the pills 411 00:20:50,288 --> 00:20:51,180 fall out. 412 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:57,584 And I realized I really had not done a good job of understanding 413 00:20:57,632 --> 00:21:02,080 what was on the mind of my client and ensuring the method of 414 00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:03,008 correct use. 415 00:21:03,144 --> 00:21:04,272 Very good. 416 00:21:04,456 --> 00:21:07,872 Well, part of me would like to imagine how the call ended, but I 417 00:21:07,896 --> 00:21:10,828 think we'll just leave it there for the sake of decency. 418 00:21:11,004 --> 00:21:12,204 Wow, Mike. 419 00:21:12,332 --> 00:21:15,372 And I guess lots of us have got stories about clients that thought 420 00:21:15,396 --> 00:21:17,932 they understood our advice, but we had not really made it clear 421 00:21:17,956 --> 00:21:18,680 for them. 422 00:21:19,460 --> 00:21:20,332 Excellent. 423 00:21:20,476 --> 00:21:24,400 So, Mike, so far we've dealt with doctors, attitudes to illness, 424 00:21:25,060 --> 00:21:27,440 consultants, attitudes to clients, problems. 425 00:21:27,860 --> 00:21:30,796 In the next three secrets, we're going to look at the decisions 426 00:21:30,828 --> 00:21:35,670 that patients make, or rather the clients make, based on our advice. 427 00:21:35,860 --> 00:21:36,910 Stick around. 428 00:21:43,770 --> 00:21:48,430 Number four, if what they've been doing hasn't solved the problem, 429 00:21:49,210 --> 00:21:53,030 tell them to do something else. 430 00:21:53,610 --> 00:21:56,722 And I think a couple of implications here. 431 00:21:56,826 --> 00:22:02,610 One is this bedrock principle that says, in order to apply this 432 00:22:02,650 --> 00:22:06,254 principle, you have to know what they've been doing. 433 00:22:06,422 --> 00:22:10,190 You have to have asked about it, you have to understand it as 434 00:22:10,230 --> 00:22:11,598 otherwise we're going to do that. 435 00:22:11,734 --> 00:22:14,638 And to get a little bit underneath this to say, well, wait 436 00:22:14,654 --> 00:22:17,278 a minute, if what they've been doing hasn't solved the problem, 437 00:22:17,334 --> 00:22:18,446 tell them to do something else. 438 00:22:18,478 --> 00:22:20,462 On the one hand, that could just be logical. 439 00:22:20,526 --> 00:22:24,030 You know, keep doing the same thing, you keep getting the same 440 00:22:24,070 --> 00:22:24,606 results. 441 00:22:24,758 --> 00:22:28,526 But the other part is not just logical, it's psychological. 442 00:22:28,638 --> 00:22:33,856 It's the fact that we're perhaps telling them to do something 443 00:22:34,008 --> 00:22:38,160 that in their minds they've already done and it didn't work. 444 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,020 And I think we'll come back to that one. 445 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,144 It's funny, it's something that's almost always there in the 446 00:22:46,152 --> 00:22:47,184 record, if we just ask for it. 447 00:22:47,192 --> 00:22:49,104 Like, what have they tried already? 448 00:22:49,192 --> 00:22:50,592 What have they tried so far? 449 00:22:50,696 --> 00:22:53,888 But so often I've seen consultants forget to ask. 450 00:22:53,944 --> 00:22:56,432 We're quite obsessed with what we're going to recommend and what 451 00:22:56,456 --> 00:22:56,880 comes next. 452 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:58,304 It's a really smart thing to ask. 453 00:22:58,392 --> 00:22:58,598

What. 454 00:22:58,624 --> 00:23:00,030 What have they already tried? 455 00:23:00,850 --> 00:23:04,298 So moving on then to secret number five. 456 00:23:04,434 --> 00:23:06,698 This gets me into one of our favorite areas, Mike. 457 00:23:06,794 --> 00:23:07,466 Pricing. 458 00:23:07,578 --> 00:23:09,354 Let's talk about money for a minute. 459 00:23:09,482 --> 00:23:12,442 This, from a doctor's perspective, sounds very cynical. 460 00:23:12,586 --> 00:23:16,470 Make sure they pay you enough so they'll do what you say. 461 00:23:17,330 --> 00:23:22,714 And maybe this is going to sound a little bit less cynical from 462 00:23:22,722 --> 00:23:24,352 the point of view of a consultant. 463 00:23:24,546 --> 00:23:25,732 Let's put it this way. 464 00:23:25,836 --> 00:23:30,468 The more your advice is likely to be unfamiliar, unpalatable, or 465 00:23:30,524 --> 00:23:34,340 counterintuitive, the more billable hours it's going to take, 466 00:23:34,380 --> 00:23:39,524 especially from your seniors, to explain and rationalize and persuade 467 00:23:39,572 --> 00:23:42,692 and build consensus, most importantly, about acting on the 468 00:23:42,716 --> 00:23:43,620 recommendations. 469 00:23:43,780 --> 00:23:46,676 So the bigger and scarier the advice is going to be, the more effort 470 00:23:46,708 --> 00:23:48,836 it's going to take, the more high value effort it's going to take 471 00:23:48,908 --> 00:23:50,736 for the client to say, okay, let's do it. 472 00:23:50,828 --> 00:23:53,400 And therefore the fee budget goes up. 473 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,616 So there's a nice, I think a reasonably honorable cause and effect 474 00:23:56,688 --> 00:23:57,656 in that direction. 475 00:23:57,768 --> 00:24:00,264 The more tricky the advice is likely to be, the more expensive 476 00:24:00,312 --> 00:24:03,496 it's going to be to get it and to believe it and to buy into it. 477 00:24:03,648 --> 00:24:05,980 But there's a more cynical perspective, right, Mike? 478 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:07,640 Well, there is. 479 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,032 From a cynical perspective, the fee budget reflects the ego of 480 00:24:11,056 --> 00:24:13,864 the consultants and the person buying their services. 481 00:24:14,032 --> 00:24:17,608 And if the fees are super high, then the recommendations had 482 00:24:17,664 --> 00:24:20,552 better be really amazing and unexpected. 483 00:24:20,696 --> 00:24:24,916 Or if this vodka is priced higher than that vodka, it's gotta 484 00:24:24,948 --> 00:24:26,360 be a better vodka. 485 00:24:27,820 --> 00:24:31,172 And you know, to a certain extent, the market takes care of 486 00:24:31,196 --> 00:24:31,428 that. 487 00:24:31,484 --> 00:24:34,356 And there are firms, and you all know the names of the firms I'm 488 00:24:34,388 --> 00:24:35,108 thinking about. 489 00:24:35,244 --> 00:24:38,308 There are firms out there that make a big margin and charge a large 490 00:24:38,364 --> 00:24:40,340 fee based on both of these rationales. 491 00:24:40,420 --> 00:24:42,964 First of all, if it's that expensive, the advice must be great. 492 00:24:43,052 --> 00:24:46,388 But also, if they're going to make really scary advice stick, they're 493 00:24:46,404 --> 00:24:48,558 going to have to put a lot of effort in and there's a lot of value 494 00:24:48,614 --> 00:24:49,294 behind that. 495 00:24:49,382 --> 00:24:50,606 So this, this kind of works. 496 00:24:50,638 --> 00:24:53,262 I'm, I'm happier ascribing this secret to consultants, actually, 497 00:24:53,366 --> 00:24:56,798 than to physicians, at least in a world outside the United States. 498 00:24:56,854 --> 00:24:57,374 Mike. 499 00:24:57,502 --> 00:25:00,622 And I like our Irish grandmother who reminds us that if 500 00:25:00,646 --> 00:25:03,374 it was really important, I'D actually have to pay something for 501 00:25:03,382 --> 00:25:03,550 it. 502 00:25:03,590 --> 00:25:06,542 And if I don't have to pay anything for it, then I'm, you know, 503 00:25:06,566 --> 00:25:06,910 a lot. 504 00:25:06,950 --> 00:25:09,870 It's a lot easier for me to say, oh, well, it doesn't matter 505 00:25:09,910 --> 00:25:10,830 whether I take it or not. 506 00:25:10,870 --> 00:25:12,046 Wait, that cost me. 507 00:25:12,118 --> 00:25:13,214 That cost me a pound. 508 00:25:13,262 --> 00:25:15,038 Wait, no, no, no, I'm going to take that. 509 00:25:15,174 --> 00:25:16,290 Yeah, exactly. 510 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,152 If anybody knows anybody who's been taking Wegovy or Mounjaro these 511 00:25:21,176 --> 00:25:24,464 days, the GLP1s the big weight loss drugs, not for every patient, 512 00:25:24,512 --> 00:25:27,232 but most doctors will say the first and the cheapest and the most 513 00:25:27,256 --> 00:25:30,000 effective thing you can do is reduce your calorie intake, improve 514 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:31,488 your diet and do some exercise. 515 00:25:31,584 --> 00:25:35,984 Those things are relatively cheap, almost free, at least in pharmaceutical 516 00:25:36,032 --> 00:25:36,288 terms. 517 00:25:36,344 --> 00:25:39,760 But maybe there's some truth to the idea that the more you believe 518 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,112 is being spent on the treatment, the more likely it is 519 00:25:42,136 --> 00:25:43,502 that you might stick with it. 520 00:25:43,696 --> 00:25:44,430 Discuss. 521 00:25:45,690 --> 00:25:49,154 Anyhow, Mike, we've done five out of six of the Secrets of Marvin. 522 00:25:49,202 --> 00:25:50,530 Let's get down to the last one here. 523 00:25:50,570 --> 00:25:52,162 What is secret number six? 524 00:25:52,346 --> 00:25:59,070 Secret number six, Know how pays much less than know when. 525 00:25:59,370 --> 00:26:03,202 And for Jerry, you know, this is an interesting one because I thought, 526 00:26:03,226 --> 00:26:04,242 well, wait a minute. 527 00:26:04,306 --> 00:26:07,362 Know how pays much less than know when. 528 00:26:07,466 --> 00:26:10,930 But that's a little bit of our specialist generalist thing. 529 00:26:11,050 -->

00:26:15,778 But it's also this, Jerry says that this list of secrets and its 530 00:26:15,834 --> 00:26:18,786 version, whether it's the medical version or the engineer's 531 00:26:18,818 --> 00:26:23,378 version, lawyers, consultants, for any consulting specialty is very 532 00:26:23,434 --> 00:26:23,938 important. 533 00:26:24,074 --> 00:26:28,770 But some of our greatest value as consultants isn't just in the 534 00:26:28,810 --> 00:26:36,670 secrets themselves, but in our ability to know when to apply them. 535 00:26:37,020 --> 00:26:42,692 So, for example, not resting your case on number one, it's going 536 00:26:42,716 --> 00:26:46,308 to cure itself, when in fact, what we've got is a number two situation 537 00:26:46,404 --> 00:26:47,040 here. 538 00:26:49,420 --> 00:26:51,364 Now, it's a common objection. 539 00:26:51,412 --> 00:26:53,780 Once you get into the guts of a consulting project and you start 540 00:26:53,820 --> 00:26:56,916 generating conclusions and recommendations, it's a common objection 541 00:26:56,948 --> 00:26:59,956 to a recommendation that the client might say, well, we tried 542 00:26:59,988 --> 00:27:01,684 that before and it didn't work. 543 00:27:01,772 --> 00:27:05,360 Or we looked at it two years ago and we chose not to pursue it 544 00:27:05,740 --> 00:27:09,428 with the implied meaning that that's therefore not a great recommendation. 545 00:27:09,604 --> 00:27:13,220 But actually, lots of the value in consulting is actually in 546 00:27:13,260 --> 00:27:18,964 helping clients believe that this relatively obvious, expected, 547 00:27:19,132 --> 00:27:22,580 fashionable, straightforward thing, believing that this thing 548 00:27:22,700 --> 00:27:25,280 for this thing, now is the right time. 549 00:27:25,740 --> 00:27:28,388 And you could take AI as an example, Mike. 550 00:27:28,484 --> 00:27:34,260 The idea that software driven AI could revolutionize business, 551 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,840 it's certainly been around for a little while. 552 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,072 It's certainly been true that AI based tools have existed in all 553 00:27:40,096 --> 00:27:44,408 kinds of computer software and personal devices and, you know, it, 554 00:27:44,464 --> 00:27:45,816 productivity apps. 555 00:27:46,008 --> 00:27:50,280 But now is the time for a whole bunch of reasons, some of them 556 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,128 real and rational and economic, some of them really technical, 557 00:27:53,224 --> 00:27:56,296 some of them just a little bit emotional, and some of them outright 558 00:27:56,328 --> 00:27:56,840 commercial. 559 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,448 Now is the time that we are being encouraged to take advantage 560 00:27:59,464 --> 00:28:00,300 of AI. 561 00:28:00,730 --> 00:28:04,610 So you don't just need to know that the solution lies there. 562 00:28:04,650 --> 00:28:07,202 You need to know and believe that now is the right time to take 563 00:28:07,226 --> 00:28:07,810 advantage of it. 564 00:28:07,850 --> 00:28:10,802 I think getting that sense of urgency is a really important thing 565 00:28:10,826 --> 00:28:13,490 in helping our clients go ahead and reach the point of making 566 00:28:13,530 --> 00:28:14,270 a decision. 567 00:28:15,130 --> 00:28:19,618 We've talked a good bit about these secrets of consulting and trying 568 00:28:19,674 --> 00:28:24,290 to figure out what to try in real life. 569 00:28:24,410 --> 00:28:25,458 Let's get to that. 570 00:28:25,514 --> 00:28:30,120 So if I'm listening right now, what could I be doing about this? 571 00:28:36,820 --> 00:28:40,076 So, Mike, first of all, if any of our listeners is in the frame 572 00:28:40,108 --> 00:28:43,244 of mind to take up a new book about consulting, go out there and 573 00:28:43,252 --> 00:28:44,780 get hold of Jerry Weinberg's book. 574 00:28:44,820 --> 00:28:48,652 It has aged really well since the mid-80s when he first put it 575 00:28:48,676 --> 00:28:49,276 to paper. 576 00:28:49,388 --> 00:28:52,156 And it's fascinating and funny and wise. 577 00:28:52,268 --> 00:28:55,240 Hence, we've had fun making an episode or two out of it. 578 00:28:55,700 --> 00:29:00,444 And I would also say, go back to the learnings from the main episode. 579 00:29:00,572 --> 00:29:03,916 Give it a try paying attention to that third project. 580 00:29:04,068 --> 00:29:07,420 If you're at third project stage, then that's a moment to take 581 00:29:07,460 --> 00:29:11,132 stock, to get feedback, make sure your team are enjoying it, make 582 00:29:11,156 --> 00:29:13,756 sure the client and the firm are profiting from it, because that's 583 00:29:13,788 --> 00:29:16,748 a really great moment in the life of your relationship, and it's 584 00:29:16,764 --> 00:29:19,320 a critical moment for thinking about where to go next. 585 00:29:19,700 --> 00:29:21,228 I think that's a great idea. 586 00:29:21,324 --> 00:29:22,684 So, you know, third project. 587 00:29:22,772 --> 00:29:23,436 There you go. 588 00:29:23,508 --> 00:29:24,680 Great takeaways. 589 00:29:24,860 --> 00:29:29,152 But if you're contemplating a project, perhaps you're even in a 590 00:29:29,176 --> 00:29:32,752 business development opportunity right now, or writing 591 00:29:32,816 --> 00:29:36,992 a proposal or starting a project, you might want to go down 592 00:29:37,016 --> 00:29:38,336 the Marvin list here. 593 00:29:38,408 --> 00:29:43,040 You might want to say, wait a minute, is this something that would 594 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:44,560 cure itself? 595 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,232 And if so, how should I be handling that? 596 00:29:47,256 --> 00:29:50,574 And is that what we're doing with this client at this time? 597 00:29:50,752 --> 00:29:51,522 Right. 598 00:29:51,706 --> 00:29:54,866 We could be asking ourselves as we sit down to write that proposal, 599 00:29:54,978 --> 00:29:58,882 are we showing the client that we know and care about both sides 600 00:29:58,946 --> 00:30:01,474 of implementation and diagnosis? 601 00:30:01,602 --> 00:30:03,870 Not hanging too heavily on our specialty there? 602 00:30:05,450 --> 00:30:09,938 Does our pricing represent the importance and complexity of our 603 00:30:09,994 --> 00:30:12,066 likely recommendations? 604 00:30:12,258 --> 00:30:16,648 And what is it doing about signaling the value of this project 605 00:30:16,834 --> 00:30:20,748 both to the client and to ourselves? 606 00:30:20,924 --> 00:30:22,000 Exactly. 607 00:30:22,820 --> 00:30:25,740 We should ask ourselves as well, Mike, have they tried this 608 00:30:25,780 --> 00:30:26,220 before? 609 00:30:26,340 --> 00:30:27,596 Let's take a look at history. 610 00:30:27,668 --> 00:30:28,684 What have they tried already? 611 00:30:28,772 --> 00:30:29,852 What's been the outcome? 612 00:30:29,916 --> 00:30:32,012 Because there's going to be some learning and some context for 613 00:30:32,036 --> 00:30:33,868 us there, right? 614 00:30:34,004 --> 00:30:35,532 And why now? 615 00:30:35,636 --> 00:30:40,636 You know, we just said it's the know how, but the know when might 616 00:30:40,708 --> 00:30:42,098 even be more important. 617 00:30:42,284 --> 00:30:46,726 So have we just written about and discussed and understood the 618 00:30:46,878 --> 00:30:47,894 know what? 619 00:30:48,062 --> 00:30:52,262 Or have we really put ourselves in a position to nail with 620 00:30:52,286 --> 00:30:57,430 ourselves and the client, the know when, the why now of all this 621 00:30:57,550 --> 00:30:58,614 fantastic. 622 00:30:58,742 --> 00:31:02,102 Well, we hope all of those are a little jog towards things that 623 00:31:02,126 --> 00:31:04,022 you can do to apply some other learning. 624 00:31:04,086 --> 00:31:07,014 We hope that you've enjoyed at least listening along to some of 625 00:31:07,022 --> 00:31:08,538 the Jerry Weinberg material. 626 00:31:08,694 --> 00:31:10,978 That's it for our show for this week. 627 00:31:11,114 --> 00:31:13,554 As always, we'd love to hear what you think. 628 00:31:13,642 --> 00:31:16,706 We'd love to hear more as well about books and ideas and concepts 629 00:31:16,738 --> 00:31:19,550 that you'd like us to debate and debunk a little bit. 630 00:31:19,930 --> 00:31:24,178 So please join us next time on the Consulting for Humans podcast 631 00:31:24,274 --> 00:31:27,670 and be with us with the luminaries. 632 00:31:34,020 --> 00:31:34,260 It.