النص الكامل لحلقة Better Your DnD Sessions with Basic Game Theory (GNS)

us at your leisure. The second 00:02:33.259 --> 00:02:38.280 one would be preferable. It's engagement. And 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:41.900 if you have any, for the people who do know more 00:02:41.900 --> 00:02:44.719 about TTRPGs, if you have any game recommendations 00:02:44.719 --> 00:02:47.800 you'd like us to play, have at it, because we're 00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:51.050 coming at this mostly from a... We played D &D 00:02:51.050 --> 00:02:54.189 for about seven years, fifth edition, and we 00:02:54.189 --> 00:02:58.490 played Pathfinder 2E for a couple years. That's 00:02:58.490 --> 00:03:03.629 mostly our basis for CT RPG. But so in a nutshell, 00:03:03.729 --> 00:03:10.990 to my understanding, the gamest side of GNS is 00:03:10.990 --> 00:03:20.319 very much like you're trying to You're trying 00:03:20.319 --> 00:03:23.240 to win or lose and it's about the gamification 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:27.780 of it. There's a goal and there's mechanics to 00:03:27.780 --> 00:03:31.240 varying levels of crunchiness. To those of you 00:03:31.240 --> 00:03:33.439 who don't know what crunchiness is, it's basically 00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:36.740 how many rules and numbers are you dealing with 00:03:36.740 --> 00:03:40.939 in a situation here. So it's about the mechanics. 00:03:41.159 --> 00:03:43.719 So it's like doing a series of rock, paper, scissors. 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:47.360 Yeah. Like progressive to get to somewhere. Yeah, 00:03:47.379 --> 00:03:50.280 at its most basic level. There's an objective, 00:03:50.460 --> 00:03:54.300 and how do I get to this objective within a mechanical 00:03:54.300 --> 00:03:58.500 system? Got it. It's like the dice you're rolling, 00:03:58.759 --> 00:04:03.159 the rules in the game, the magic spells you're 00:04:03.159 --> 00:04:07.539 using, the balance of the system. It's how is 00:04:07.539 --> 00:04:10.919 the game coming together to reach a certain goal? 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:14.520 It's also, from what I read, a lot about optimization. 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:19.610 It's the min -maxing side of gaming. It's how 00:04:19.610 --> 00:04:24.350 do I make the best character I can within this 00:04:24.350 --> 00:04:29.129 rule set to accomplish the goal, whatever it 00:04:29.129 --> 00:04:31.990 is. I am in Dungeons and Dragons. My goal is 00:04:31.990 --> 00:04:34.569 to slay a dragon by making the most optimum character 00:04:34.569 --> 00:04:40.430 5e will allow. That is more the gamest side of 00:04:40.430 --> 00:04:44.189 the triangle. So then there's the side I'm more 00:04:44.189 --> 00:04:47.019 on, which is the narrativist side. And that's 00:04:47.019 --> 00:04:48.819 what prompted this discussion in the first place, 00:04:48.879 --> 00:04:51.480 which clickbait title, Matt Mercer and Critical 00:04:51.480 --> 00:04:56.000 Role ruin D &D. That's my opinion. Yes, and that's 00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:59.000 what we were talking about to generate this, 00:04:59.060 --> 00:05:06.360 was the idea that narrative -focused TTRPGs really 00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:09.560 hit their cultural zenith with Critical Role, 00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:15.620 where D &D was more of a war game in the past. 00:05:16.680 --> 00:05:20.199 A bit more on the crunchy gamers, gamist side 00:05:20.199 --> 00:05:24.620 where it was more about, okay, we're going to 00:05:24.620 --> 00:05:28.360 slay the monster and go on adventure. But that's 00:05:28.360 --> 00:05:32.279 actually kind of part of the third section. But 00:05:32.279 --> 00:05:35.439 it was more in the gamist situationist thing, 00:05:35.579 --> 00:05:39.180 a section of the pyramid. And then Matt Mercer 00:05:39.180 --> 00:05:42.800 comes in and makes it about, about storytelling 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:46.970 more, which was always. a potential route you 00:05:46.970 --> 00:05:50.930 can take with DTRPGs, D &D specifically. But 00:05:50.930 --> 00:05:53.870 Critical... They popularized it and made it the 00:05:53.870 --> 00:05:57.149 most popular way to play, but it's also probably 00:05:57.149 --> 00:06:00.769 one of the hardest ways to play correctly. I 00:06:00.769 --> 00:06:04.529 think it's fun for everybody. Well, the problem 00:06:04.529 --> 00:06:10.209 with everybody getting into D &D through Critical 00:06:10.209 --> 00:06:13.050 Role... Is that Critical Role is setting a standard 00:06:13.050 --> 00:06:15.449 that most people can't reach for narrative -based 00:06:15.449 --> 00:06:17.970 games? It's unachievable. You're dealing with 00:06:17.970 --> 00:06:23.850 a group of trained voice actors who, for podcast 00:06:23.850 --> 00:06:26.149 version or for main play, it's like, okay, well, 00:06:26.230 --> 00:06:28.149 they know how to use their voices in very unique 00:06:28.149 --> 00:06:32.230 ways to create consistent characterization. They're 00:06:32.230 --> 00:06:35.149 also actors, which means they can really get 00:06:35.149 --> 00:06:38.250 into the minds of their personalities, play consistent 00:06:38.250 --> 00:06:42.879 characters. Performance wise and in ideology 00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:48.279 and decision making. Matt Mercer is the kind 00:06:48.279 --> 00:06:52.319 of DM who excels at world building. And creating 00:06:52.319 --> 00:07:00.180 an entire sandbox to explore. He created an entire 00:07:00.180 --> 00:07:04.759 world of Exandria with a ridiculous amount of 00:07:04.759 --> 00:07:10.379 lore. And NPCs, a lot of whom he plays in his 00:07:10.379 --> 00:07:14.199 capacity as a voice actor with such varied personalities 00:07:14.199 --> 00:07:19.800 and voice types and backgrounds. And he's just 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:23.540 created an entire sandbox for his very talented 00:07:23.540 --> 00:07:27.860 friends to play in and knows how to take the 00:07:27.860 --> 00:07:32.079 elements that they're creating to build a whole 00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:38.800 story around. decision makers everyone in the 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:43.360 world has wants needs and goals like classic 00:07:43.360 -->

00:07:45.920 screenwriting the bad guys want a thing they're 00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:50.399 trying to do a thing our heroes by virtue of 00:07:50.399 --> 00:07:53.379 their alignments on the good to evil spectrum 00:07:53.379 --> 00:07:55.519 are probably going to interfere with this some 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:58.959 way if they didn't it wouldn't be a much of a 00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:01.360 story but he's kind of assuming he's putting 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:03.480 out plot hooks for his characters to get interested 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:08.720 in and sometimes That's just a very simple adventure, 00:08:08.920 --> 00:08:12.000 which might build their characters or build a 00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:15.040 team camaraderie that's exciting to watch, train 00:08:15.040 --> 00:08:20.860 performers do, experienced performers especially. 00:08:21.699 --> 00:08:26.699 Or it could be a universe ending stakes, which 00:08:26.699 --> 00:08:28.740 a lot of the campaigns seem to build up towards. 00:08:28.939 --> 00:08:31.939 It goes from the small, low stakes adventures 00:08:31.939 --> 00:08:38.100 to the big stakes. Yeah, and the characters grow 00:08:38.100 --> 00:08:42.779 and change and develop romances and deep bonds 00:08:42.779 --> 00:08:45.340 and friendship and camaraderies along the way. 00:08:45.379 --> 00:08:47.519 And we get to see these narratives play out. 00:08:47.720 --> 00:08:51.279 And I'm going on a lot about narrative focus, 00:08:51.460 --> 00:08:54.360 but that's where I tend to enjoy the most. So 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:58.840 I have a bias towards describing that, and I 00:08:58.840 --> 00:09:02.340 understand it more intuitively. So that's gamist, 00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:07.149 narrativist. And the last one is Situationist, 00:09:07.169 --> 00:09:09.830 which I feel like you seem to fit more into. 00:09:10.070 --> 00:09:13.990 So I don't really understand this one. Yeah. 00:09:14.009 --> 00:09:19.350 So Situationist is, once again, to my understanding, 00:09:19.470 --> 00:09:26.149 more of a sandbox style game where there is a 00:09:26.149 --> 00:09:31.629 world and the joy of that world is in its consistency. 00:09:33.490 --> 00:09:37.090 maintaining a certain level of groundedness or 00:09:37.090 --> 00:09:41.289 fantasy reality what have you the rules of this 00:09:41.289 --> 00:09:45.529 world are consistent you drop characters in and 00:09:45.529 --> 00:09:50.389 it's more exploration focused it's we are existing 00:09:50.389 --> 00:09:54.309 in a world we get in here and find what we find 00:09:54.309 --> 00:09:58.570 and i feel like in terms of ttrpg space it's 00:09:58.570 --> 00:10:02.110 putting the onus a lot on the dm for keeping 00:10:02.110 --> 00:10:04.149 the world interesting keeping the world not just 00:10:04.149 --> 00:10:09.409 interesting but consistent it's more it's more 00:10:09.409 --> 00:10:12.950 about interaction with the world not necessarily 00:10:12.950 --> 00:10:16.309 like once again because it's a spectrum i was 00:10:16.309 --> 00:10:19.049 just talking about narrative focused things and 00:10:19.049 --> 00:10:22.129 like matt mercer campaigns are very much on the 00:10:22.129 --> 00:10:25.769 narrative part of the spectrum but he also is 00:10:25.769 --> 00:10:29.289 a lot like especially in those early games When 00:10:29.289 --> 00:10:33.730 NPCs are just kind of exploring Exandria, they 00:10:33.730 --> 00:10:36.570 run into a lot of situations and lore and characters 00:10:36.570 --> 00:10:38.789 that don't really have anything to do with the 00:10:38.789 --> 00:10:41.470 overall story or their story, but they're just... 00:10:41.470 --> 00:10:46.090 So, like, Critical Role... Critical Role's version 00:10:46.090 --> 00:10:49.389 of 5e specifically would fall more into, like, 00:10:49.450 --> 00:10:51.710 somewhere between narrative -focused and situation 00:10:51.710 --> 00:10:55.450 -focused, more on the narrative side, whereas, 00:10:55.509 --> 00:10:59.960 like, old... Old style D &D falls more into the 00:10:59.960 --> 00:11:04.539 situation gamified area. It's more about the 00:11:04.539 --> 00:11:07.159 mechanics and the min -maxing and running into 00:11:07.159 --> 00:11:09.460 random situations in a world. Yeah, it's the 00:11:09.460 --> 00:11:12.259 kind of game where you're like, oh, I died. Well, 00:11:12.299 --> 00:11:15.620 here's my other sheet. Yes. And then there's 00:11:15.620 --> 00:11:17.740 probably a lot of other games that kind of go 00:11:17.740 --> 00:11:23.340 more into the narrative and gamifying area where 00:11:23.340 --> 00:11:27.820 it's all about the story. You know, maybe less 00:11:27.820 --> 00:11:32.299 exploration systems that are very much just like, 00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:34.279 okay, we're just going to build a story together 00:11:34.279 --> 00:11:38.679 based on whatever rules that set allows for. 00:11:38.899 --> 00:11:43.200 Okay. So now I understand kind of the three points. 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:48.840 Yeah. Where does, like you said, some TTRPGs 00:11:48.840 --> 00:11:53.039 lean more towards other spaces. Like where does... 00:11:53.580 --> 00:11:56.580 The version of 5e that we have now, where does 00:11:56.580 --> 00:12:03.179 that fall into? I think 5e seems to lean more 00:12:03.179 --> 00:12:08.919 into the gaming section, more of the gaming situation 00:12:08.919 --> 00:12:14.120 section. Still like a lot of classic editions, 00:12:14.360 --> 00:12:18.659 but people like Critical Role have added this 00:12:18.659 --> 00:12:21.909 narrative component on top of it that... It isn't 00:12:21.909 --> 00:12:27.009 necessarily designed for. D &D is based on a 00:12:27.009 --> 00:12:32.309 lot of board gaming type of games. So, you know, 00:12:32.309 --> 00:12:34.250 at the end of the day, you solve a lot of problems 00:12:34.250 --> 00:12:40.049 in D &D more by kill monster with stick, go bonk, 00:12:40.049 --> 00:12:44.649 monster dead, than you are with narrative -based 00:12:44.649

--> 00:12:47.129 consequences. You can roll your persuasion checks 00:12:47.129 --> 00:12:49.850 and your insights and whatnot, but it really... 00:12:50.700 --> 00:12:52.700 If you really think about the mechanics of D 00:12:52.700 --> 00:12:56.940 &D, a lot of it is about getting into or subverting 00:12:56.940 --> 00:13:01.019 combat situations. It's really... I guess the 00:13:01.019 --> 00:13:03.240 way you're describing it kind of clicked something 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:04.919 in because I was like, well, the book's kind 00:13:04.919 --> 00:13:07.100 of focused towards a narrative, but you're right. 00:13:08.279 --> 00:13:12.240 It's not... The choices you make, the actions 00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:16.919 you do really don't affect it the way it would 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:19.360 affect in a narrative where it's kind of like 00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:22.269 a... More like a domino effect. It's like, are 00:13:22.269 --> 00:13:25.769 you going down path A or path B? It's not really... 00:13:25.769 --> 00:13:31.029 It's a situation. It's a situation that is given 00:13:31.029 --> 00:13:35.509 structure by a game system. And the narrative, 00:13:35.649 --> 00:13:37.870 you could add a narrative component to it. I 00:13:37.870 --> 00:13:40.250 feel like however much narrative is there is 00:13:40.250 --> 00:13:43.509 dependent on the table. Well, and the source 00:13:43.509 --> 00:13:46.309 books, if you're following a source book, there 00:13:46.309 --> 00:13:49.210 is a written story, but you're right in that... 00:13:49.559 --> 00:13:54.639 It's not so much that you are playing for a narrative, 00:13:54.740 --> 00:13:57.500 you are playing... There is a pre -written narrative 00:13:57.500 --> 00:14:00.500 that you are following the path and can alter 00:14:00.500 --> 00:14:03.879 some things, but... Yeah. In truth, you're not 00:14:03.879 --> 00:14:08.320 really playing out a new narrative unless you 00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:10.740 are going out of bounds of the game, basically. 00:14:11.340 --> 00:14:16.179 Yes, and most of that is combat -based. More 00:14:16.179 --> 00:14:19.419 than... It's more about the challenges you're 00:14:19.419 --> 00:14:21.940 going to face along the path, which can be resolved 00:14:21.940 --> 00:14:24.940 by the rule set and how you built your character 00:14:24.940 --> 00:14:30.580 than it is your character's ideals and the decisions 00:14:30.580 --> 00:14:34.299 they're going to make along the path to get here. 00:14:34.659 --> 00:14:37.580 The decisions you're making are like, okay, am 00:14:37.580 --> 00:14:41.039 I looking for traps or not? Usually more than 00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:46.500 I'm trying to... You know, convince people one 00:14:46.500 --> 00:14:50.879 way or the other, or like find the meaning of 00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:55.139 life. You're like, if you're trying to convince 00:14:55.139 --> 00:14:58.000 somebody of something and like for a persuasion 00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:02.159 check, it's usually

more for like, I wager it's 00:15:02.159 --> 00:15:04.240 mostly because you're trying to avoid combat 00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:07.759 or get something out of them. That'll give you 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:11.580 a mechanical bonus. It's I'm trying to barter 00:15:11.580 --> 00:15:15.690 you down for. A better price on a sword or a 00:15:15.690 --> 00:15:18.750 magic item, or I'm trying to convince you to 00:15:18.750 --> 00:15:23.549 join my adventuring party or my army. That's 00:15:23.549 --> 00:15:28.230 going towards the gamified end objective. Less 00:15:28.230 --> 00:15:30.509 than discovering who you are as a human being, 00:15:30.649 --> 00:15:35.250 or where you fit into the world. Or, like, telling 00:15:35.250 --> 00:15:37.830 the story of your character, basically. Yes. 00:15:38.269 --> 00:15:41.190 To your... I guess... I guess that's the way 00:15:41.190 --> 00:15:42.769 it is with the source books. The source books 00:15:42.769 --> 00:15:46.269 don't care about your character. Your character's 00:15:46.269 --> 00:15:48.870 not in the source books. Yes, it's like I was 00:15:48.870 --> 00:15:51.289 saying about the gamification. The source book 00:15:51.289 --> 00:15:54.830 is setting up the structure for the game. It's 00:15:54.830 --> 00:15:58.490 pointing you in a direction and saying, here's 00:15:58.490 --> 00:16:01.429 an end point. How you get there is based on the 00:16:01.429 --> 00:16:03.750 rules of the game. Whatever narrative you want 00:16:03.750 --> 00:16:07.049 to add into that is totally dependent on the 00:16:07.049 --> 00:16:10.000 table. But it really is. here's your endpoint 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:12.720 what mechanics are you going to use to get here 00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:16.419 yeah because we've like we're technically in 00:16:16.419 --> 00:16:20.980 in our game that we played a 5e we're we were 00:16:20.980 --> 00:16:24.019 following a source book but our table plays more 00:16:24.019 --> 00:16:26.480 towards the narrative side so we went off the 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:29.039 rails we've been off well we went off book a 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:31.740 bit then we went way off book but now we're in 00:16:31.740 --> 00:16:34.720 a completely different book yeah so we were on 00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:38.230 book and then we kept We were kind of railroading 00:16:38.230 --> 00:16:41.269 on book and then we veered off book so hard. 00:16:41.350 --> 00:16:43.649 We weren't in any book. We were in like second 00:16:43.649 --> 00:16:45.669 edition. We were in second edition and the DM 00:16:45.669 --> 00:16:48.350 had to pull up stuff from 30 years ago just to 00:16:48.350 --> 00:16:50.370 make it make any sense. And then we went into 00:16:50.370 --> 00:16:52.629 a book, but not the book. That's not the one 00:16:52.629 --> 00:16:54.490 we came from. Not the one we came from. And then 00:16:54.490 --> 00:16:56.690 we're slowly getting pivoted back towards the 00:16:56.690 --> 00:16:59.379 book again. So I guess that's the difference 00:16:59.379 --> 00:17:01.980 is that... We're in a situational game now. If 00:17:01.980 --> 00:17:05.720 you're establishing where 5e as written fits 00:17:05.720 --> 00:17:08.579 on it, it doesn't fit into the narrative category 00:17:08.579 --> 00:17:11.279 because it can't... It's not meant to do things 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:14.720 like that. That's up to the DM or the players 00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:16.940 to kind of decide the play style they're doing. 00:17:17.160 --> 00:17:20.980 Whereas other games, the entire point of it is... 00:17:20.980 --> 00:17:24.180 Storytelling? Is storytelling and character development 00:17:24.180 --> 00:17:32.400 and... So there's TTRPG systems that are specifically 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:38.660 designed for storytelling in mind? Yes. Yes, 00:17:38.700 --> 00:17:42.240 primarily. Although, as I was saying up top, 00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:44.700 the point about this system is there are other 00:17:44.700 --> 00:17:46.640 schools of thought that have come into existence 00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:49.140 in the last 20 years that are a little bit more 00:17:49.140 --> 00:17:51.259 complicated than this. But this foundational 00:17:51.259 --> 00:17:56.480 idea of GNS, it's never... It's not really binary. 00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:59.079 It's not like, it's not black and white. Okay, 00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:01.559 there's only narrative, there's only game, there's 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:06.059 only situation, but it is, you are leaning more 00:18:06.059 --> 00:18:08.400 towards one side than the other. But I just mean 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:11.400 like, if the rule set gives you more towards 00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:15.279 actually building the narrative, like is there 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:19.640 TTRPGs that do that? Oh yeah, there's tons of 00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:22.779 different types of RPGs. I'm not well -versed 00:18:22.779 --> 00:18:26.650 in them. One I have been hearing about a lot 00:18:26.650 --> 00:18:29.569 lately, sticking to the Critical Role theme, 00:18:29.750 --> 00:18:33.210 we talked about them a lot, is they created a 00:18:33.210 --> 00:18:37.509 game called Daggerheart. And that is primarily 00:18:37.509 --> 00:18:39.930 suited towards their narrative as play style. 00:18:40.690 --> 00:18:44.769 Really? There is some crunch to it, but a lot 00:18:44.769 --> 00:18:50.430 of it is more based around story situations and 00:18:50.430 --> 00:18:55.630 flavoring than it is about... you know, crunchy 00:18:55.630 --> 00:19:00.109 mechanics. It's, from what I've read about it, 00:19:00.130 --> 00:19:02.190 it does skew more towards narrative storytelling. 00:19:03.190 --> 00:19:07.549 Specifically because D &D is a more gamified 00:19:07.549 --> 00:19:13.029 game that's more for situation play and slaying 00:19:13.029 --> 00:19:16.710 monsters and whatnot. It's more like a, okay, 00:19:16.750 --> 00:19:20.269 you can pop in, pop out any time a game and your 00:19:20.269 --> 00:19:23.839

investment is dependent. On how much you want 00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:26.359 to put into it. Whereas Daggerheart seems more 00:19:26.359 --> 00:19:29.759 tailored to be... Be invested right from the 00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:35.559 start. And tell a... Tell a story with it. Tell 00:19:35.559 --> 00:19:38.720 a collaborative story. Whereas D &D isn't necessarily... 00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:42.440 Shine is a collaborative storytelling game. It's 00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:46.539 more of a... Collaborative... Adventure game. 00:19:47.460 --> 00:19:52.279 You're going... You can expand that from... D 00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:54.440 &D is like, okay, we can go on an adventure. 00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:57.440 We can go into the dungeon, slay the monster, 00:19:57.660 --> 00:20:02.019 and call it game. Or we can go for 20 years with 00:20:02.019 --> 00:20:07.160 the same characters. True. Or cycle in and out. 00:20:08.220 --> 00:20:13.579 But it works just as well both ways. Daggerheart, 00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:15.619 I feel like you need a little bit more investment 00:20:15.619 --> 00:20:22.339 in. In your characters, in your world. having 00:20:22.339 --> 00:20:24.279 once again not knowing a heck of a lot about 00:20:24.279 --> 00:20:27.400 it but they tailored their game more towards 00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:31.079 their style yeah and narrative play doesn't suit 00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:33.700 you know people popping in people popping out 00:20:33.700 --> 00:20:36.420 kind of it doesn't they made a game that suits 00:20:36.420 --> 00:20:40.279 their style better and there's a lot that would 00:20:40.279 --> 00:20:43.259 probably suit even better for narrative flat 00:20:43.259 --> 00:20:45.259 state play styles because you know it is still 00:20:45.259 --> 00:20:52.150 like a dice based game with mechanics to it There's 00:20:52.150 --> 00:20:54.150 some that are so abstract, it's just storytelling. 00:20:55.250 --> 00:20:59.230 I guess that's possible, just narrating what 00:20:59.230 --> 00:21:02.329 happens between everybody. Yeah, like I was just 00:21:02.329 --> 00:21:05.349 reading about a really cool one, which I didn't 00:21:05.349 --> 00:21:07.089 write down the name of it, I should have. But 00:21:07.089 --> 00:21:12.069 it was like, you're playing as knights, and a 00:21:12.069 --> 00:21:17.470 lot of the situation is like, alright, I slay 00:21:17.470 --> 00:21:21.500 the monster with my sword. And then the next 00:21:21.500 --> 00:21:25.940 person, the game master or whoever says, OK, 00:21:26.099 --> 00:21:31.059 but only if blank. And then the next person and 00:21:31.059 --> 00:21:34.039 then it's put the onus back on the main person 00:21:34.039 --> 00:21:39.920 who's like. OK, but only if this. So it's nearly 00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:45.380 like a negotiation. To create the story. Where 00:21:45.380 --> 00:21:50.279 there's like. penalty points for engaging in 00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:53.180 certain acts. It's nearly like the longer they 00:21:53.180 --> 00:21:56.299 survive, the more they get punished for it. So 00:21:56.299 --> 00:21:58.940 it's like a negotiation for every situation. 00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:01.940 And it didn't seem like there were any dice rolls 00:22:01.940 --> 00:22:05.200 or anything either. It's just like, okay, the 00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:06.779 point of the game is we're just going to say, 00:22:06.859 --> 00:22:10.099 okay, but only if, until somebody concedes something. 00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:13.880 You have to agree to the conditions the next 00:22:13.880 --> 00:22:18.819 guy sets up for you. To tell a but -then -so 00:22:18.819 --> 00:22:22.319 -then kind of story. That's interesting. At that 00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:25.099 point, it feels more like an improv game. Yes, 00:22:25.099 --> 00:22:28.359 it is. It seems to be something in that vein. 00:22:29.259 --> 00:22:31.619 And there's a lot of games like that, where it 00:22:31.619 --> 00:22:34.980 is more improv heavy. A lot that don't even have 00:22:34.980 --> 00:22:39.039 dice. Or anything really controlling the story, 00:22:39.140 --> 00:22:42.049 except for... I've seen people describe some 00:22:42.049 --> 00:22:44.809 of these TTRPGs as basically just sitting in 00:22:44.809 --> 00:22:49.269 a writer's room of a TV show. Which I imagine 00:22:49.269 --> 00:22:52.170 is you're just sitting at a table and pitching 00:22:52.170 --> 00:22:55.329 ideas back and forth until we all agree on something 00:22:55.329 --> 00:23:01.190 resembling a story. And that's what a strongly 00:23:01.190 --> 00:23:04.490 narrative focused game might look like. That's 00:23:04.490 --> 00:23:07.750 interesting. And that's something I would like 00:23:07.750 --> 00:23:09.730 to try because I tend to lean more that way. 00:23:10.109 --> 00:23:13.589 But I think you seem to lean more towards the 00:23:13.589 --> 00:23:18.190 situational game. I think you like that sandbox 00:23:18.190 --> 00:23:23.150 idea. That classic D &D of, all right, we're 00:23:23.150 --> 00:23:25.609 making characters and they're not necessarily 00:23:25.609 --> 00:23:30.670 that deep insofar as you got mechanics to tell 00:23:30.670 --> 00:23:34.170 you who you are and what your role is. And we 00:23:34.170 --> 00:23:36.599 drop you in a dungeon and go. Well, I guess that's 00:23:36.599 --> 00:23:39.200 the thing is it's still like a spectrum. So even 00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:41.240 though I'm leaning heavy here, there's still 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:44.460 storytelling elements. There's still game elements. 00:23:44.700 --> 00:23:50.259 You can kind of place it somewhere in the triangle, 00:23:50.420 --> 00:23:53.220 I guess. I think with this situation, Slant, 00:23:53.220 --> 00:23:56.500 you really need a good DM because it seems that 00:23:56.500 --> 00:24:00.539 a lot of the appeal of it is the world itself. 00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:02.599 I mean, that's really the whole thing is the 00:24:02.599 --> 00:24:06.980 exploration of a... of an interesting world

so 00:24:06.980 --> 00:24:10.579 it really puts the onus on a on the dm to make 00:24:10.579 --> 00:24:14.660 their world worth exploring and i think that's 00:24:14.660 --> 00:24:19.119 a big challenge for that side of the equation 00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:23.539 a narrative focus the problem with the dm there 00:24:23.539 --> 00:24:26.799 or i should say gm we're we are talking about 00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:30.180 a lot of uh different games here but the problem 00:24:30.180 --> 00:24:32.700 with the gm in a narrative is like okay all my 00:24:32.700 --> 00:24:35.490 friends are giving me Backstories which may or 00:24:35.490 --> 00:24:38.369 may not be relevant. They all want some kind 00:24:38.369 --> 00:24:41.329 of emotional catharsis that I somehow need to 00:24:41.329 --> 00:24:45.390 swing us all into without feeling like they're 00:24:45.390 --> 00:24:49.470 being railroaded. Most people want to feel like 00:24:49.470 --> 00:24:55.349 they're in a sandbox, but also be actually kind 00:24:55.349 --> 00:24:57.910 of on a linear path of catharsis. Like, okay, 00:24:57.930 --> 00:25:01.490 my character arc is going away. I'm forcing situations 00:25:01.490 --> 00:25:04.970 that are challenging you. And your beliefs and 00:25:04.970 --> 00:25:08.650 forcing you to play differently on a character 00:25:08.650 --> 00:25:13.309 basis. And then the gamification is just like, 00:25:13.349 --> 00:25:16.730 OK, well, how deep is your system? D &D is like. 00:25:17.589 --> 00:25:19.769 All right. It's basically all there on your sheet 00:25:19.769 --> 00:25:21.809 and you roll the dice and it's there. And then 00:25:21.809 --> 00:25:23.869 there's Pathfinder where the whole manual is 00:25:23.869 --> 00:25:25.930 like every time we play, we're looking up rules 00:25:25.930 --> 00:25:29.690 because we're like, does this apply here? Can 00:25:29.690 --> 00:25:33.230 we rule of cool it? This is Pathfinder. No. Rule 00:25:33.230 --> 00:25:35.849 of cool does not exist. It works or it does not. 00:25:35.910 --> 00:25:41.829 And there's a rule. We will find it. But sometimes 00:25:41.829 --> 00:25:45.549 you got to let rule of cool go. Sometimes. But 00:25:45.549 --> 00:25:48.650 I feel like Pathfinder players are hardcore that 00:25:48.650 --> 00:25:51.390 way. I have definitely found that when communicating 00:25:51.390 --> 00:25:54.130 with people on Reddit about Pathfinder. I'm like, 00:25:54.230 --> 00:25:56.750 yeah, I do this. And they're like, you can't 00:25:56.750 --> 00:25:59.710 do that. I'm like... Play 5th edition, you plebeian. 00:25:59.890 --> 00:26:01.789 Yeah, I'm like... If you want a rule of cool, 00:26:01.910 --> 00:26:04.170 the rule of cool does not exist in this community. 00:26:04.589 --> 00:26:11.890 Well, that's too bad. It's my game. No! They 00:26:11.890 --> 00:26:17.640 do. They get very salty. Yeah. So another for 00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:20.140 narrative focused, I think narrative is very 00:26:20.140 --> 00:26:24.700 good for former theater kids like us. People 00:26:24.700 --> 00:26:27.960 who want to put on a bit of a performance or 00:26:27.960 --> 00:26:30.940 get really invested in their characters otherwise. 00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:38.220 Whereas our friend Cole is very much a gamified 00:26:38.220 --> 00:26:41.700 person. He's always min -maxing his characters 00:26:41.700 --> 00:26:44.869 and creating the most... busted combos possible 00:26:44.869 --> 00:26:49.690 because that's that's the side of the game he 00:26:49.690 --> 00:26:51.609 enjoys the most sometimes you and i make our 00:26:51.609 --> 00:26:54.410 characters suboptimal we just do what we find 00:26:54.410 --> 00:26:56.349 is interesting and sometimes it works sometimes 00:26:56.349 --> 00:26:58.809 it doesn't he always makes the strongest characters 00:26:58.809 --> 00:27:02.009 he can for a situation i mean i my my character 00:27:02.009 --> 00:27:06.809 is the is 5e's worst class is worst subclass 00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:11.660 Yeah. Like if anybody's doing suboptimal and 00:27:11.660 --> 00:27:14.240 yes, it's actually pretty bad. To the point where 00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:16.799 you had to multi -class out of it. I had to eventually. 00:27:17.500 --> 00:27:19.279 And I did the same thing. I was, you know, I 00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:21.759 was playing a ranger and I had to multi -class 00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:24.079 out of it as well. But like that ranger rogue 00:27:24.079 --> 00:27:26.880 combination ended up unintentionally. You stumbled 00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:30.160 on a min max. Yeah. I stumbled on a, like an 00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:33.019 entirely busted DPS build without even trying 00:27:33.019 --> 00:27:35.579 just because it suited my character who had a 00:27:35.579 --> 00:27:38.170 roguish back. Like he. He was a ranger and he 00:27:38.170 --> 00:27:39.930 had a roguish background. So I'm like, yeah, 00:27:39.950 --> 00:27:41.849 I'll naturally go into rogue now that I'm bored 00:27:41.849 --> 00:27:45.710 with ranger. And then I stumbled into a solid 00:27:45.710 --> 00:27:50.049 DPS build. And then I went to Bard later just 00:27:50.049 --> 00:27:53.210 because I felt like it. Because it fit that part 00:27:53.210 --> 00:27:55.390 of his story too. And I'm not convinced it's 00:27:55.390 --> 00:27:57.890 working out great, but it's... Triple multiclass 00:27:57.890 --> 00:28:00.730 is considered not good. Yeah, I'm still not convinced 00:28:00.730 --> 00:28:03.809 it's working, but I'm enjoying it. You just do 00:28:03.809 --> 00:28:06.490 it. You do it because it's fun. I like the versatility. 00:28:06.990 --> 00:28:08.970 Like, you should see the skills my guy's got. 00:28:09.069 --> 00:28:13.150 And it fits his backstory and his view of the 00:28:13.150 --> 00:28:16.769 world. But you have a suboptimal, like, your 00:28:16.769 --> 00:28:20.269 character was suboptimal, but he survived the 00:28:20.269 --> 00:28:25.210 whole time. The min -maxers died the most. Has 00:28:25.210 -->

00:28:27.250 he had any characters who have multi -classed? 00:28:27.289 --> 00:28:29.490 I think all of his characters have been straight 00:28:29.490 --> 00:28:34.180 classes so far. I think so. Yeah, he did a bard, 00:28:34.420 --> 00:28:38.220 he did a paladin, he did a warlock, and he did 00:28:38.220 --> 00:28:43.779 a fighter. Yeah. And every one of them's died. 00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:49.559 At least once. And then there's you and I who 00:28:49.559 --> 00:28:53.319 have gone on for like 60 sessions as the same 00:28:53.319 --> 00:28:57.660 characters in our suboptimal settings. Yeah. 00:28:57.960 --> 00:29:00.400 Everybody else at our table who's optimized for 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:03.779 the game has died. And then you and I are just 00:29:03.779 --> 00:29:06.059 like playing for narrative -based reasons and 00:29:06.059 --> 00:29:09.279 for fun and ended up with characters who've lasted. 00:29:11.579 --> 00:29:14.779 So sometimes... Maybe min -maxing isn't the best. 00:29:15.660 --> 00:29:18.519 Maybe not. But also our DM has it out for him 00:29:18.519 --> 00:29:24.039 sometimes. You got a challenge. If you're a player 00:29:24.039 --> 00:29:27.630 in a narrative -leaning game, And you know, like 00:29:27.630 --> 00:29:31.410 if you're the GM and you know that, you know, 00:29:31.410 --> 00:29:34.089 you're playing that narrative leaning game, but 00:29:34.089 --> 00:29:36.910 you have a player who's leaning towards the gamify 00:29:36.910 --> 00:29:39.769 and is min -maxing their character. You have 00:29:39.769 --> 00:29:42.049 to push them. That's where they're going to get 00:29:42.049 --> 00:29:45.509 their enjoyment is from being pushed. And that's 00:29:45.509 --> 00:29:47.930 when you're, that's when you pick on that player 00:29:47.930 --> 00:29:50.329 a little bit more than everybody else. Hey, you 00:29:50.329 --> 00:29:52.829 made a tough guy. You see how much he can take 00:29:52.829 --> 00:29:55.569 a hit. All right. If you're going to be min -maxed. 00:29:55.880 --> 00:30:00.640 I'm going to throw the big guys at you. Precisely. 00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:10.359 Yeah, so any questions or queries in mind? Any 00:30:10.359 --> 00:30:16.059 philosophies? What should you, one, what should 00:30:16.059 --> 00:30:18.519 somebody as a player, why should somebody as 00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:23.880 a player or somebody as a DM or GM? know this 00:30:23.880 --> 00:30:27.599 this type of triangle like what's what's well 00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:33.099 it seems that this triangle is more based for 00:30:33.099 --> 00:30:39.539 game designers who are aiming for a certain point 00:30:39.539 --> 00:30:44.160 of the triangle to focus their efforts but it 00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:48.339 also helps for players i believe to know what 00:30:48.339 --> 00:30:51.930 type of game they want to play If they are the 00:30:51.930 --> 00:30:55.809 type of person who likes to crunch numbers in 00:30:55.809 --> 00:31:00.109 min -max to achieve a goal, it's like playing 00:31:00.109 --> 00:31:03.329 an app game or something. I'm not here for investment. 00:31:03.450 --> 00:31:07.450 I'm just in it for the game. Or Mario Kart or 00:31:07.450 --> 00:31:10.230 something. I'm not in it for the story here. 00:31:10.329 --> 00:31:13.650 I'm just trying to get really good at a game. 00:31:14.970 --> 00:31:17.450 Then there's the people who just want to explore 00:31:17.450 --> 00:31:20.750 a fantasy setting. They like their sandbox. They 00:31:20.750 --> 00:31:24.269 like, hey, you know, I could wander into a dungeon 00:31:24.269 --> 00:31:29.130 as easily as a field of flowers and be happy 00:31:29.130 --> 00:31:31.069 as long as there's something interesting in there. 00:31:31.390 --> 00:31:33.970 And then there's the people who are like, I have 00:31:33.970 --> 00:31:36.910 no investment at all unless I feel like my decisions 00:31:36.910 --> 00:31:39.369 are changing the story. I'm trying to play an 00:31:39.369 --> 00:31:42.750 RPG here. I want to get into the mind of a character. 00:31:44.210 --> 00:31:47.549 So for like the video game world, I guess you'd 00:31:47.549 --> 00:31:51.170 be like, okay, The one is like Call of Duty, 00:31:51.329 --> 00:31:54.809 the gamified. Then there's Minecraft and then 00:31:54.809 --> 00:31:58.569 there's, I don't know, like... RPGs? Uncharted 00:31:58.569 --> 00:32:03.009 or Skyrim or... I would say the... What were 00:32:03.009 --> 00:32:04.970 the first two you were saying? I said Call of 00:32:04.970 --> 00:32:08.630 Duty. Call of Duty is a gamified one. Well, as 00:32:08.630 --> 00:32:10.170 long as you're not playing the campaign. Who 00:32:10.170 --> 00:32:14.089 plays the campaign? Yeah, I think for a situation 00:32:14.089 --> 00:32:16.529 one, I feel like something like Legend of Zelda 00:32:16.529 --> 00:32:19.720 would be... Pretty like it's just a whole world 00:32:19.720 --> 00:32:23.440 that you're like just discovering stuff. Well, 00:32:23.500 --> 00:32:25.799 I just thought something like Minecraft as well 00:32:25.799 --> 00:32:28.880 was like the really hard towards the point where 00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:31.660 it's like it's literally just about exploring 00:32:31.660 --> 00:32:34.579 the world. Yeah. Minecraft is very much a situation. 00:32:34.779 --> 00:32:37.460 And for like narrative focus, something like 00:32:37.460 --> 00:32:40.400 a telltale game, maybe. We're like, oh, yeah, 00:32:40.420 --> 00:32:42.900 like the story is it. You're on a very linear 00:32:42.900 --> 00:32:46.859 path and like your choices. uh affect the outcome 00:32:46.859 --> 00:32:50.220 of things but you're on a very okay we're just 00:32:50.220 --> 00:32:54.440 here for the story yeah and it's not really like 00:32:54.440 --> 00:32:57.359 uh there's no gameplay really it's most of those 00:32:57.359 --> 00:32:59.400 telltale games are just like oh you you click 00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:01.480 the button or react to this you make that you 00:33:01.480 -->

00:33:03.759 make a lot of decisions that change things pretty 00:33:03.759 --> 00:33:06.880 significantly but other than that it's there's 00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:10.240 not a heck of a lot to the game side yeah so 00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:13.369 i think that's a good example of a trifecta Call 00:33:13.369 --> 00:33:16.210 of Duty, Minecraft, or your average Telltale 00:33:16.210 --> 00:33:21.849 game. What kind of gamer are you? What do you 00:33:21.849 --> 00:33:24.410 want to focus on at your table? Well, and I guess 00:33:24.410 --> 00:33:29.349 that kind of does make sense because I do lean 00:33:29.349 --> 00:33:32.450 towards games like, like I do like Telltale games, 00:33:32.650 --> 00:33:36.069 but I also have sunk way more hours into a game 00:33:36.069 --> 00:33:39.190 like Minecraft or, you know, games that are more 00:33:39.190 --> 00:33:46.859 exploratory. Yes. And I do enjoy some of the 00:33:46.859 --> 00:33:49.660 systems. So I can kind of see it when I put it 00:33:49.660 --> 00:33:51.880 like that, it actually helps me to kind of be 00:33:51.880 --> 00:33:54.740 like, yeah, I actually do see that I do fall 00:33:54.740 --> 00:33:57.099 in that corner, like not the corner of the triangle, 00:33:57.160 --> 00:34:00.859 but leaning towards that way. Yeah. And I definitely 00:34:00.859 --> 00:34:04.059 fall onto the side of collaborative storytelling. 00:34:04.599 --> 00:34:10.360 I enjoy a situational world to explore, but I 00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:14.139 also care for... characters and stories that 00:34:14.139 --> 00:34:15.840 I'm making up with my friends. I don't need a 00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:19.219 game component for that. I could basically just 00:34:19.219 --> 00:34:21.719 say, all right, here's the map full of stuff 00:34:21.719 --> 00:34:25.079 we might find and like somebody to referee us 00:34:25.079 --> 00:34:27.039 and we're just going to improv a story together. 00:34:27.219 --> 00:34:29.460 I'd be happy to sit around a table and do that 00:34:29.460 --> 00:34:34.440 without dice. The dice just give it a more concrete 00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:37.280 reason of, okay, somebody's setting a difficulty 00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:40.820 check and, you know, your dice say you succeeded 00:34:40.820 --> 00:34:45.639 or not. Okay, that's why I like D &D. I can get 00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:50.300 behind just luck deciding whether I made it or 00:34:50.300 --> 00:34:56.280 not. Luck plus modifiers that the game gives 00:34:56.280 --> 00:34:58.539 me. It would almost be interesting to try something 00:34:58.539 --> 00:35:04.840 that's even less gamified, like less numbers 00:35:04.840 --> 00:35:08.320 to do with it and see how that... Like if you 00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:11.239 simplify the game even further. I know 5e is 00:35:11.239 --> 00:35:15.199 designed to be pretty simple. Like the most simple 00:35:15.199 --> 00:35:20.159 experience to get into D &D and tabletop RPGs 00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:24.239 in general. It's a fairly balanced

system with 00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:30.139 enough versatility that you can play it however 00:35:30.139 --> 00:35:32.500 you want. And I think that's why it's so popular. 00:35:33.500 --> 00:35:36.800 A lot of other games are... Because they lean 00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:40.099 more towards certain sides of the pyramid, they're 00:35:40.099 --> 00:35:45.260 a little less accessible to everybody. That's 00:35:45.260 --> 00:35:48.119 why D &D is kind of your gateway drug into DTRPGs 00:35:48.119 --> 00:35:52.539 for most people. It's like, okay, here's a pretty 00:35:52.539 --> 00:35:55.940 good general system that's fairly balanced in 00:35:55.940 --> 00:35:59.440 a lot of regards. And, okay, what do I like most 00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:02.039 about this? And then you discover other games. 00:36:02.809 --> 00:36:04.869 And I think that's where we're at right now is 00:36:04.869 --> 00:36:07.130 we played D &D for so many years and then we 00:36:07.130 --> 00:36:09.929 branched off into Pathfinder, a very gamified, 00:36:10.130 --> 00:36:16.269 crunchy sort of system. And like, not necessarily 00:36:16.269 --> 00:36:18.969 for me, I can find enjoyment in that, but is 00:36:18.969 --> 00:36:22.269 that a system I would like double down on? I 00:36:22.269 --> 00:36:26.230 don't know. So I, you know, I play Pathfinder 00:36:26.230 --> 00:36:28.269 and that makes me want to go back to like the 00:36:28.269 --> 00:36:30.710 D &D center. I like the versatility and more. 00:36:31.400 --> 00:36:33.980 like rule of cool nebulousness of it though sometimes 00:36:33.980 --> 00:36:37.340 i like when you know a rule's a rule when you're 00:36:37.340 --> 00:36:39.320 playing and you're like okay i wish dnd would 00:36:39.320 --> 00:36:42.420 just have a rule for that sometimes but it also 00:36:42.420 --> 00:36:47.579 makes me want to branch out to other places because 00:36:47.579 --> 00:36:50.699 i i love your idea for you know our next dnd 00:36:50.699 --> 00:36:57.880 game of um a more situational setting where your 00:36:57.880 --> 00:37:02.739 characters can cycle in and out and we're just, 00:37:02.780 --> 00:37:06.440 we're set in a world and it's going to be dangerous 00:37:06.440 --> 00:37:09.159 and you're just going to find what you find. 00:37:09.300 --> 00:37:11.539 And I really want to try a game like that because 00:37:11.539 --> 00:37:14.400 - Hang out with your friends, do quests, find 00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:17.360 loot. I think that's the one of the trifecta 00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:20.300 that I haven't really experienced in DTRPG. We've 00:37:20.300 --> 00:37:22.599 done the gamified game. We've done narrative 00:37:22.599 --> 00:37:24.639 focused games, but we haven't really done the 00:37:24.639 --> 00:37:28.039 sandbox game yet as gamers. Not really. We got 00:37:28.039 --> 00:37:31.289 like a taste of it, but not really. And I think 00:37:31.289 --> 00:37:33.250 the only time we really got a taste of that was 00:37:33.250 --> 00:37:38.010 like

our early days of our campaign. Well, basically 00:37:38.010 --> 00:37:42.250 like D &D starter sets kind of is like, here's 00:37:42.250 --> 00:37:44.309 a whole list of quests that they could do to 00:37:44.309 --> 00:37:47.670 get to this level. Here's all the little small 00:37:47.670 --> 00:37:49.690 quests they could pick from from the quest board 00:37:49.690 --> 00:37:52.570 to get to level four. Yeah. So that's what I'm 00:37:52.570 --> 00:37:57.269 learning is we need to play more styles of TTRPG. 00:38:00.139 --> 00:38:03.059 mess around maybe i should maybe i should look 00:38:03.059 --> 00:38:06.039 into a system that lean that like an actual system 00:38:06.039 --> 00:38:09.699 that leans towards what i want to do because 00:38:09.699 --> 00:38:12.980 it sounds like there's so many out there if you 00:38:12.980 --> 00:38:16.659 can understand it finding a system that benefits 00:38:16.659 --> 00:38:19.679 your the play style like especially as the gm 00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:24.659 to find a system that actually helps you run 00:38:24.659 --> 00:38:31.309 the game because the gm has the going to make 00:38:31.309 --> 00:38:34.289 your job easier the game's gonna go better if 00:38:34.289 --> 00:38:36.389 it plays to your strength but it's also kind 00:38:36.389 --> 00:38:39.530 of the about the players too you got to find 00:38:39.530 --> 00:38:43.590 a system that makes all enough of your players 00:38:43.590 --> 00:38:46.309 happy but also plays to your strength as a game 00:38:46.309 --> 00:38:49.530 runner well yeah i guess like not everybody's 00:38:49.530 --> 00:38:52.170 going to be happy with with each way of playing 00:38:52.170 --> 00:38:54.989 if you lean away from center yeah like at our 00:38:54.989 --> 00:38:57.590 table i feel like we all lean into different 00:38:57.590 --> 00:39:00.380 areas like the Like you, me and our friend Joe 00:39:00.380 --> 00:39:03.639 are the only ones who've run games at our table 00:39:03.639 --> 00:39:06.659 so far. And I feel like we all lean slightly 00:39:06.659 --> 00:39:11.219 different ways. You're more of a situationist. 00:39:11.239 --> 00:39:14.840 I'm more of a narrativist. And I nearly want 00:39:14.840 --> 00:39:18.440 to say Joe leans into the gaming area because 00:39:18.440 --> 00:39:21.780 he kind of he knows that narrative and gaming. 00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:24.739 He's like in the narrative gaming block of the 00:39:24.739 --> 00:39:29.670 area. But I feel like he knows D &D way better 00:39:29.670 --> 00:39:35.510 than us. And he'd probably love Pathfinder. Probably. 00:39:36.809 --> 00:39:39.650 But that's the thing. We've talked about it before 00:39:39.650 --> 00:39:42.269 where it's like that group wouldn't... Pathfinder 00:39:42.269 --> 00:39:43.889 wouldn't work with that group because... Yeah. 00:39:44.070 --> 00:39:45.969 It would not work with that group, but I feel 00:39:45.969 --> 00:39:49.389 like it would work great for him as a GM. I think 00:39:49.389 -->

00:39:54.849 he would love that. But it's... Yeah, you gotta 00:39:54.849 --> 00:39:58.019 find what's... Something to suit your strengths. 00:39:58.440 --> 00:40:02.320 Well, I did learn something today. I feel like 00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:08.960 I did know next to nothing because I kind of 00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:12.360 thought it was game and storytelling and there 00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:15.000 was a balance in between there. You told me there's 00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:16.820 a whole... There's a whole other section. There's 00:40:16.820 --> 00:40:19.099 a whole thing and it's a whole triangle, which 00:40:19.099 --> 00:40:21.980 is... And it even goes deeper than that once 00:40:21.980 --> 00:40:25.179 again, but that's like the simplified... version 00:40:25.179 --> 00:40:29.000 that i've seen of okay here's basically what 00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:31.880 it boils down to so now instead of playing dnd 00:40:31.880 --> 00:40:34.420 maybe i'll find a system that leans the way that 00:40:34.420 --> 00:40:36.659 i want to play and try to play that with our 00:40:36.659 --> 00:40:39.500 group that way experiment a little bit maybe 00:40:39.500 --> 00:40:43.460 yeah do a lot more one shots with the group and 00:40:43.460 --> 00:40:48.679 see what we all gel with or what you as a game 00:40:48.679 --> 00:40:53.860 master gel with I think we could all stand to 00:40:53.860 --> 00:40:58.719 benefit. Because I think we've all played enough 00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:03.599 at our table that we can branch out. We played 00:41:03.599 --> 00:41:08.239 D &D as a group for four years. And I know some 00:41:08.239 --> 00:41:10.019 of us would be disappointed if we didn't get 00:41:10.019 --> 00:41:13.500 to play a lot of the other D &D modules. But 00:41:13.500 --> 00:41:16.059 I'm at the point where I want to try something 00:41:16.059 --> 00:41:19.570 different. Either a different play style or a 00:41:19.570 --> 00:41:21.670 different game altogether? Well, I think considering 00:41:21.670 --> 00:41:26.070 we've played the way we've played for four years, 00:41:26.210 --> 00:41:30.630 well, three, four years, basically, it is time 00:41:30.630 --> 00:41:33.530 to kind of switch things up a bit and play something 00:41:33.530 --> 00:41:35.670 different. And then you can go back. There's 00:41:35.670 --> 00:41:39.170 nothing. I guess that's the thing is, with all 00:41:39.170 --> 00:41:43.230 these TTRPGs, like, when you go and play video 00:41:43.230 --> 00:41:46.880 games, Do you exclusively play one game all the 00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:50.360 time forever? No. You switch games. You play 00:41:50.360 --> 00:41:53.820 different games. You can go back and forth. You 00:41:53.820 --> 00:41:57.659 can play a different TTRPG for a bit. And then 00:41:57.659 --> 00:41:59.739 you can go back and play D &D again if you want 00:41:59.739 --> 00:42:02.320 to run another module like that. You can bounce 00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:05.360 all over the place. Especially once you've

played 00:42:05.360 --> 00:42:08.079 it long enough that the rules are so ingrained 00:42:08.079 --> 00:42:11.989 already that... I can drop into any D &D game 00:42:11.989 --> 00:42:16.230 at any time and I know what to do. I think that's 00:42:16.230 --> 00:42:19.130 also the biggest drawback to narrative -focused 00:42:19.130 --> 00:42:22.769 games is you kind of need to remember what's 00:42:22.769 --> 00:42:26.030 going on. Well, yeah. I don't mean bounce between 00:42:26.030 --> 00:42:28.670 every week you're switching systems. That's what 00:42:28.670 --> 00:42:31.929 I'm saying as a benefit to situational games. 00:42:32.050 --> 00:42:34.610 You can just drop into those games and play the 00:42:34.610 --> 00:42:37.960 game. It's like, I think that's what... used 00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:41.699 to be the beauty of TTRPGs is they were a little 00:42:41.699 --> 00:42:44.440 less daunting back in the day if you were willing 00:42:44.440 --> 00:42:47.079 to understand some rules because it was like 00:42:47.079 --> 00:42:51.880 okay I can just roll up a ranger and drop into 00:42:51.880 --> 00:42:54.019 this world and fight some monsters with some 00:42:54.019 --> 00:42:57.059 dice rolls okay I can like you know take half 00:42:57.059 --> 00:42:59.460 an hour and make a character and and just play 00:42:59.460 --> 00:43:03.070 the game and now people put so much onus on Oh, 00:43:03.110 --> 00:43:04.969 I got to write a whole backstory. I got to write 00:43:04.969 --> 00:43:07.449 a whole novel's worth of backstory and lore about 00:43:07.449 --> 00:43:09.570 me, but I'm probably going to throw out the window 00:43:09.570 --> 00:43:12.389 session one anyway. You might just die. At level 00:43:12.389 --> 00:43:14.710 one, you just die sometimes. You might, yeah, 00:43:14.809 --> 00:43:16.969 you might just die anticlimactically or change 00:43:16.969 --> 00:43:19.010 your mind. I feel like that's something where 00:43:19.010 --> 00:43:22.550 I wonder if that's the pattern because, you know, 00:43:22.550 --> 00:43:25.530 the more we've leaned towards like critical roles, 00:43:25.610 --> 00:43:30.380 lean things towards storytelling. the more common 00:43:30.380 --> 00:43:32.320 it's been that people are like yeah we start 00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:35.059 our campaigns at level four or higher because 00:43:35.059 --> 00:43:38.599 it's like oh at level one you just die you want 00:43:38.599 --> 00:43:41.960 that longevity to keep things going yeah whereas 00:43:41.960 --> 00:43:44.960 level one exists because the world is supposed 00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:47.599 to feel dangerous and unpredictable but if 5e 00:43:47.599 --> 00:43:53.019 is designed to be more balanced or kind of leaning 00:43:53.869 --> 00:43:57.269 Yeah. Towards gamify and. Situations. Situational. 00:43:57.269 --> 00:43:59.949 Like it's kind of leaning that way. So in a way, 00:43:59.969 --> 00:44:04.690 by starting at level one, that actually hinders 00:44:04.690 --> 00:44:10.070 your. Narrative. Your narrative. Because most 00:44:10.070 --> 00:44:12.130 of the time, level one characters don't make 00:44:12.130 --> 00:44:14.989 it. Well, think about the initial starter set 00:44:14.989 --> 00:44:19.070 in 2014 with the very first round of the very 00:44:19.070 --> 00:44:24.820 first starter set for 5e. Infamously, like, you 00:44:24.820 --> 00:44:27.199 know, total party kills happen all the time in 00:44:27.199 --> 00:44:30.079 that module. To the point where they're like, 00:44:30.179 --> 00:44:33.380 yes, if everybody dies, just pretend everybody 00:44:33.380 --> 00:44:36.139 got knocked out and they lose a bunch of money 00:44:36.139 --> 00:44:38.699 and then they follow the trail afterwards. Good 00:44:38.699 --> 00:44:41.739 luck starting a story when the very first module 00:44:41.739 --> 00:44:45.599 of your very first new edition is... Everybody 00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:50.340 dies immediately. Well, that sucks. Yeah. But 00:44:50.340 --> 00:44:52.619 I think that's the thing is that... is that maybe 00:44:52.619 --> 00:44:56.320 that's maybe that you know staying away from 00:44:56.320 --> 00:45:00.019 the early levels is is a result of leaning towards 00:45:00.019 --> 00:45:02.500 storytelling because now you have a chance like 00:45:02.500 --> 00:45:06.460 going from 1 to 20 is like pretty much unheard 00:45:06.460 --> 00:45:10.880 of never happens but like like a lot of characters 00:45:10.880 --> 00:45:15.019 don't make it from 1 to 4 it's a very dangerous 00:45:15.019 --> 00:45:18.539 part of the game So it's kind of hard to be like, 00:45:18.619 --> 00:45:20.699 oh, I'm going to write my whole backstory up. 00:45:20.739 --> 00:45:24.860 I got four pages worth of story. And then you're 00:45:24.860 --> 00:45:27.760 like, and then you die session one. I really 00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:29.659 like that insight. I'm going to offer another 00:45:29.659 --> 00:45:33.559 one that's more obvious as a counterpoint. So 00:45:33.559 --> 00:45:35.800 the narrative based reasons are the reason we 00:45:35.800 --> 00:45:38.039 don't really do one to three. But I think it's 00:45:38.039 --> 00:45:40.579 well known that gamify reasons are the reasons 00:45:40.579 --> 00:45:45.360 we don't usually go 12 to 20. Because. Because 00:45:45.360 --> 00:45:48.900 the numbers are too complex. Because the numbers 00:45:48.900 --> 00:45:51.179 get out of whack and the game starts falling 00:45:51.179 --> 00:45:54.199 apart. The balance starts to break. Your divide 00:45:54.199 --> 00:45:57.739 between the top power and the bottom power is 00:45:57.739 --> 00:46:01.139 pretty big at that point because you could be 00:46:01.139 --> 00:46:05.380 built really poorly. Yeah, so 8 to 20, you can 00:46:05.380 --> 00:46:07.699 still get a good story, but the game falls apart. 00:46:07.860 --> 00:46:11.519 Whereas levels 1 to 3, the game is optimized, 00:46:11.639 --> 00:46:15.440 but you're... Probably not going to get invested 00:46:15.440 -->

00:46:17.780 into it because you're probably dead. So like 00:46:17.780 --> 00:46:20.440 D &D is a case study. The sweet spot is 4 to 00:46:20.440 --> 00:46:24.699 12. Yeah, so D &D is a case study. Either the 00:46:24.699 --> 00:46:27.199 game or the narrative side falls apart on either 00:46:27.199 --> 00:46:32.400 side of your level gap. Oh, that's interesting. 00:46:33.769 --> 00:46:36.570 Yeah, we're breaking down why level 4 to 12 is 00:46:36.570 --> 00:46:39.050 the optimum in all these modules. I never understood 00:46:39.050 --> 00:46:42.469 it fully. Well, yeah, they're always like, yep, 00:46:42.489 --> 00:46:45.409 it's meant for X amount of players at levels 00:46:45.409 --> 00:46:47.829 4 and runs till 12. I never understood that, 00:46:47.909 --> 00:46:50.090 but now it's kind of adding up. Reverse engineering 00:46:50.090 --> 00:46:56.150 it? That would be why, probably. It's not because 00:46:56.150 --> 00:46:59.050 they want you to tag on a starter set. It's because 00:46:59.050 --> 00:47:04.409 levels 1 to 3 suck. You die. You can't tell a 00:47:04.409 --> 00:47:11.610 story that way. Yeah. All right. Well, that's 00:47:11.610 --> 00:47:16.030 about all I have to say on that. It's a complex 00:47:16.030 --> 00:47:18.909 web that we're only touching the surface of. 00:47:19.469 --> 00:47:25.909 Getting into really intricate game designs and 00:47:25.909 --> 00:47:30.409 theories behind game design. Which we're only 00:47:30.409 --> 00:47:33.090 starting to understand. We'll have to get back 00:47:33.090 --> 00:47:35.989 to you in like four years when we have more experience 00:47:35.989 --> 00:47:38.429 with a whole bunch of different TTRPG systems 00:47:38.429 --> 00:47:40.789 and we'll be like, yeah, that triangle theory, 00:47:40.949 --> 00:47:45.070 that was all, that was dumb. Basic. Basic. That 00:47:45.070 --> 00:47:47.989 triangle theory is nothing. Which I saw a lot 00:47:47.989 --> 00:47:50.329 of people say before I even got into this today. 00:47:50.449 --> 00:47:52.349 They're like, yeah, that was pretty foundational 00:47:52.349 --> 00:47:56.199 20 years ago, but it's... Expanded since then. 00:47:56.300 --> 00:47:59.059 So in like four more years when we understand 00:47:59.059 --> 00:48:02.079 it better, we'll make another video where Joe's 00:48:02.079 --> 00:48:04.280 going to say, you think you know stuff about 00:48:04.280 --> 00:48:08.219 D &D and tabletop RPGs, Justin? Well, you don't. 00:48:08.219 --> 00:48:10.659 You're stupid again. That triangle thing, it's 00:48:10.659 --> 00:48:13.739 garbage. And I'll be like, well, I guess we're 00:48:13.739 --> 00:48:15.360 doing another video where you're going to explain 00:48:15.360 --> 00:48:22.960 the decahexagon star chart. No, we're getting 00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:25.599 into the Dan Harmon story circle at that point. 00:48:25.679 --> 00:48:29.719 Oh, no. The hero's journey of gaming with a triangle 00:48:29.719 --> 00:48:36.219 in the middle. No. It's not just a triangle. 00:48:36.260 --> 00:48:39.139 It's going to be like a triforce. There you go. 00:48:39.260 --> 00:48:43.539 Yeah. Three triangles with a secret hidden triangle 00:48:43.539 --> 00:48:47.219 in the middle. And then you find out it's actually 00:48:47.219 --> 00:48:50.639 a pyramid. There's a whole separate dimension. 00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:53.239 We were looking at it in 2D when it's really 00:48:53.239 --> 00:48:58.119 a 3D structure. We're just scratching the surface 00:48:58.119 --> 00:49:00.440 here, people. Stick with us on this journey. 00:49:00.739 --> 00:49:03.639 Four years. If we're still making this podcast 00:49:03.639 --> 00:49:06.159 in four years, that would be incredible. We'll 00:49:06.159 --> 00:49:10.260 get back to it with more knowledge. That's a 00:49:10.260 --> 00:49:12.380 lot of this podcast. Look back to a couple years 00:49:12.380 --> 00:49:14.760 ago. We're more knowledgeable about the same 00:49:14.760 --> 00:49:22.019 things. You understand more. I don't. Well, you're 00:49:22.019 --> 00:49:26.119 still new. Oh. Yeah, this is like my 10th episode 00:49:26.119 --> 00:49:28.280 or something. You understand. You've been on 00:49:28.280 --> 00:49:30.039 this for like a year. You understand more than 00:49:30.039 --> 00:49:33.119 you did a year ago. Yeah. About film criticism 00:49:33.119 --> 00:49:37.019 and podcasting. I speak more than five words. 00:49:38.300 --> 00:49:42.420 And on that note, shut up. And where can we find 00:49:42.420 --> 00:49:46.039 you? No, you don't shut up. You plug first and 00:49:46.039 --> 00:49:50.420 then you shut up. Or get mic muted. Oh, well, 00:49:50.500 --> 00:49:53.340 that's sad. Well, you can find me on Instagram 00:49:53.340 --> 00:49:56.639 at jchurchtpm. And I get tired. Things fall apart. 00:49:56.860 --> 00:50:00.260 I'm sorry. Check out thoughtplane .ca for hundreds 00:50:00.260 --> 00:50:05.139 of written reviews and film posts for free. We 00:50:05.139 --> 00:50:07.619 hope to see you on the next close up. Till next 00:50:07.619 --> 00:50:11.320 time. And come back in four years for the follow 00:50:11.320 --> 00:50:11.579 up.