النص الكامل لحلقة A Decent Life: Morality for the Rest of Us | Dr. Todd May

view, and I know that 34 00:02:10,649 --> 00:02:14,159 book. And and so the editor said, "Look, I like you to write 35 00:02:14,219 --> 00:02:19,289 that book, right? The most you could do for sane people, right? 36 00:02:21,629 --> 00:02:21,829 That's a 37 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:22,579 PJ Wehry: great ask. 38 00:02:23,690 --> 00:02:26,810 Unknown: Immediately, I knew what you meant. Right. So the 39 00:02:27,140 --> 00:02:31,490 idea was that most of us are not going to become moral exemplars. 40 00:02:31,640 --> 00:02:35,120 Right. There are reasons I talk about them in the book why maybe 41 00:02:35,660 --> 00:02:39,230 we we shouldn't all become moral exemplars. But then the question 42 00:02:39,260 --> 00:02:43,330 is, how do you frame morality? How do you frame our moral tasks 43 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:48,190 if you're not thinking in terms of like the best life or the 44 00:02:48,340 --> 00:02:51,400 good life? And what you know, for Aristotle, it's it's the the 45 00:02:52,030 --> 00:02:57,220 telus of a life. For Kant, it's ways in which to become like a 46 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:02,190 completely virtuous person. How might we frame it? And PJ, what 47 00:03:02,220 --> 00:03:06,180 happened was I started to frame it differently, and so the book 48 00:03:06,390 --> 00:03:09,600 offers a different frame for thinking about our moral lives. 49 00:03:10,290 --> 00:03:13,920 That's that's it's distinct from the kinds of things you see with 50 00:03:14,010 --> 00:03:17,370 traditional moral philosophy, and I just call it decency. 51 00:03:17,970 --> 00:03:23,030 Right, you can get a little bit, people can get a little little 52 00:03:23,630 --> 00:03:26,480 weird about the word decency because you know, if you go out 53 00:03:26,570 --> 00:03:30,320 for like to a really good restaurant and they say how was 54 00:03:30,350 --> 00:03:33,800 the meal and you say it was decent, that's not a great 55 00:03:34,010 --> 00:03:38,540 thing, right? So I'm thinking of decency as like better than 56 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,550 mediocrity, right? Less than being a moral exemplar. 57 00:03:43,810 --> 00:03:50,860 PJ Wehry: Yeah, absolutely. I so I'm a devout Christian. I grew 58 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:55,750 up that way, and so a lot of the examples I think of things come 59 00:03:55,840 --> 00:04:03,390 from Scripture. One of the the I was reading Teresa Avila, the 60 00:04:03,930 --> 00:04:09,330 Interior Castle, and so I understand there's some there's 61 00:04:09,390 --> 00:04:13,710 some moral implications about the the whole story, but one of 62 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:15,840 the things that as I was reading, and she's like this 63 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,990 moral exemplar of like this incredible you know mystical 64 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,740 union, and she's given she's a nun, and she's given everything 65 00:04:21,890 --> 00:04:24,080 up, and she's even fighting through like against the 66 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:29,570 Inquisition, and she's referencing positively Elijah, 67 00:04:31,730 --> 00:04:37,460 and that that her whole order praises Elijah. Their motto is 68 00:04:37,700 --> 00:04:40,190 Elijah saying, "I am zealous for the Lord. I have been zealous 69 00:04:40,250 --> 00:04:44,440 for the Lord, and but actually, in the context, the the story. I 70 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:46,630 don't know if you're familiar with the story. Elijah has this 71 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:54,400 big confrontation with with these child sacrificing. Maybe 72 00:04:54,430 --> 00:05:00,090 they're errors. The the prophets of Baal, and he he wins the. Day 73 00:05:00,870 --> 00:05:03,570 and then he still gets persecuted by the king and 74 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:05,880 queen. They're trying to kill him, and he flees into the 75 00:05:05,970 --> 00:05:08,940 desert. And he's basically really depressed. And everyone 76 00:05:08,970 --> 00:05:10,950 talks about God coming to talk to him, but the first thing 77 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,890 happens is God makes him fall asleep and gives him a snack, 78 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,980 which I think is a great talking about you know just like good 79 00:05:17,070 --> 00:05:19,050 common sense. It's like if you're depressed, let's start 80 00:05:19,110 --> 00:05:23,780 with yeah with that. And he and he says, "I am so zealous. I am 81 00:05:23,930 --> 00:05:27,140 I am so zealous for you, God. And no, I am the last one. No 82 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:31,730 one else is faithful. And God's response is, "There's 7000 other 83 00:05:31,820 --> 00:05:35,240 people that no one thinks or talks about over here who are 84 00:05:35,330 --> 00:05:39,080 faithful to me. It's like you know, it's like you just had 85 00:05:39,140 --> 00:05:42,040 this great like miracle and all these things, and you're you're 86 00:05:42,340 --> 00:05:45,070 talking to King Queen. There's 7000 people will never see 87 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:49,720 miracles, and they're living good, decent lives over here. 88 00:05:50,650 --> 00:05:53,800 And what's interesting is everyone looks at Teresa Avila 89 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,650 as like, oh, this amazing person, and she is. But it's 90 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,840 also it's like that, like literally in the story, it's 91 00:06:00,840 --> 00:06:04,410 like there's 7000 people who God is happy with over here, just 92 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:08,130 like farming, having families, and not. I don't. Anyways, 93 00:06:08,430 --> 00:06:11,070 that's that's what I thought. Is that a is that a kind of like 94 00:06:11,340 --> 00:06:14,820 tracking a little bit with kind of the the purpose of your book? 95 00:06:15,330 --> 00:06:17,430 Unknown: Yeah, I think Paige, but I want to be a little 96 00:06:17,490 --> 00:06:19,770 careful about one aspect of it. So yeah, 97 00:06:20,700 --> 00:06:20,960 PJ Wehry: go for 98 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:22,550 Unknown: it. These 7000 people, 99

00:06:23,570 --> 00:06:23,720 PJ Wehry: yes, 100 00:06:24,650 --> 00:06:28,610 Unknown: they can be living decent lives, or they can be 101 00:06:28,790 --> 00:06:35,060 living exemplary lives. Except nobody knows it, right? So also 102 00:06:35,210 --> 00:06:35,300 true. 103 00:06:35,510 --> 00:06:35,660 PJ Wehry: Yes. 104 00:06:35,990 --> 00:06:39,200 Unknown: Right. So what I want to press on is the first thing, 105 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,130 right? Right. There, these people are trying their best. 106 00:06:42,610 --> 00:06:46,240 They're making mistakes. They're they're not famous, but they're 107 00:06:46,330 --> 00:06:51,310 also not perfect. And yet, and still, right? They're trying to 108 00:06:51,460 --> 00:06:56,140 frame how to live decently in a world that doesn't always 109 00:06:56,230 --> 00:06:56,710 welcome that. 110 00:06:58,450 --> 00:07:02,250 PJ Wehry: And I think, and what I wanted to highlight, and I, 111 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,090 sorry, not trying to hijack everything here. It was that 112 00:07:06,330 --> 00:07:08,640 everyone tells the stories of Elijah. They tell the story of 113 00:07:08,700 --> 00:07:12,540 Teresa, you know, of Avila, Mother Teresa, you know, Peter 114 00:07:12,690 --> 00:07:15,540 Singer. It's he's like this guy gave his kidney because that, 115 00:07:15,810 --> 00:07:18,900 you know, and you're like, that's a lot to give a kidney, 116 00:07:19,050 --> 00:07:24,950 right? It's like, and I think that, anyways, I um, uh, that 117 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:29,240 that really connected with me. But maybe I've thrown us off a 118 00:07:29,300 --> 00:07:31,400 little bit. So my apologies if that was a little bit out of the 119 00:07:31,430 --> 00:07:35,510 blue. I what are the and I think that kind of leads into what you 120 00:07:35,630 --> 00:07:38,240 hinted at in the book you give. What are some of the reasons for 121 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:39,770 not becoming a moral exemplar? 122 00:07:40,670 --> 00:07:44,560 Unknown: Well, Susan Wolf, the philosopher from UNC, right, has 123 00:07:44,710 --> 00:07:49,240 written on this, and she has just this great article called 124 00:07:49,270 --> 00:07:53,230 "Moral Saints, and she said, "Look, if we were all moral 125 00:07:54,580 --> 00:07:57,610 saints, what kinds of things would go by the boards, right? 126 00:07:57,850 --> 00:08:00,720 You know, a lot of music would go by the boards because music 127 00:08:01,140 --> 00:08:04,590 doesn't always cause the most overall good, right? A lot of 128 00:08:04,650 --> 00:08:06,810 friendships would go by the board because they don't 129 00:08:06,930 --> 00:08:10,530 necessarily cause the most overall good. So there are lots 130 00:08:10,830 --> 00:08:14,490 of aspects of our lives that involve things that we value, 131 00:08:15,540 --> 00:08:20,070 and our lives might be less meaningful if we didn't have 132 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,620 access to these, or didn't cultivate these. So we should 133 00:08:24,830 --> 00:08:28,970 think of moral values and acting morally as a really important 134 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:33,590 part of our life. But it's not clear that we should subsume all 135 00:08:33,680 --> 00:08:37,550 of our lives, or to put it another way, subsume everything 136 00:08:37,610 --> 00:08:44,230 that we value under the rubric of is it moral or is it not? So 137 00:08:44,260 --> 00:08:46,630 I think there's some good reasons not to be moral 138 00:08:46,660 --> 00:08:49,450 exemplars, but I want to be a little bit careful here, PJ. 139 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,080 It's probably good to have some moral exemplars out there. Yeah, 140 00:08:53,110 --> 00:08:56,440 yeah, right. Yeah. So it's it's not like nobody should try to be 141 00:08:56,560 --> 00:08:59,560 a moral exemplar, but if everybody tried to be a moral 142 00:08:59,590 --> 00:09:03,900 exemplar, there is a lot that we value that would go by the 143 00:09:03,900 --> 00:09:04,200 boards. 144 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:09,390 PJ Wehry: I feel like there's two distinct ways that could be 145 00:09:09,540 --> 00:09:12,870 taken, and I'm curious which one. So when you talk about the, 146 00:09:14,070 --> 00:09:19,980 it would be it'd be okay to lose those things. Like one one way 147 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,010 of thinking about is that it'd be okay to lose those things if 148 00:09:22,100 --> 00:09:23,930 everyone could be moral exemplars, but it's okay that's 149 00:09:24,020 --> 00:09:28,040 not. Or are we saying, or I'm just trying to understand here, 150 00:09:28,910 --> 00:09:33,620 is it more that would be bad if we lost these things by everyone 151 00:09:33,680 --> 00:09:35,600 becoming moral exemplars? Does that make sense? 152 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:36,710 Unknown: Yeah, option B. 153 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,450 PJ Wehry: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, yes, all right. Yeah, 154 00:09:40,540 --> 00:09:42,640 which is the stronger claim, right? Yeah, like the 155 00:09:44,289 --> 00:09:48,699 Unknown: yeah, yeah. The the I mean, and and I know what Peter 156 00:09:48,819 --> 00:09:51,039 Singh is going to say to stuff like that. He's going to say, 157 00:09:51,099 --> 00:09:54,579 yeah, but is it worth it? And actually, what he's going to 158 00:09:54,579 --> 00:09:57,489 say, what he he has said, right? Is it worth it to have things 159 00:09:57,639 --> 00:10:04,199 like opera and? And and and various music and art when at 160 00:10:04,199 --> 00:10:09,629 the expense of people starving, and I and and I think that you 161 00:10:09,659 --> 00:10:14,939 know I think that's a powerful point, right? But I also think 162 00:10:15,089 --> 00:10:20,069 that we get that what happens to our lives involves lots of 163 00:10:20,159 --> 00:10:23,629 different things that might be might contribute to our 164 00:10:23,689 --> 00:10:28,909 meaningfulness, and it it seems to me a bit much to ask us to 165 00:10:28,999 -->

00:10:36,979 sacrifice all those things in favor of a moral view that seems 166 00:10:37,069 --> 00:10:38,869 very strict and very austere. 167 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,520 PJ Wehry: Yeah, I think that austerity has always been the 168 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,550 thing that struck me about Peter Singer's framework. Right? It's 169 00:10:48,610 --> 00:10:51,940 like I don't know that I want to live in that world, even if you 170 00:10:51,940 --> 00:10:54,640 know. It's like yeah, yeah. 171 00:10:56,500 --> 00:10:58,360 Unknown: And that's that's where the notion of decency comes 172 00:10:58,420 --> 00:11:02,400 from. Right? Trying to try and provide an alternative that 173 00:11:02,460 --> 00:11:08,700 allows us to keep a rich moral life, right? Without having to 174 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,940 live in an austere, overly moralized world. 175 00:11:14,550 --> 00:11:17,820 PJ Wehry: And I think we've kind of been talking about this, 176 00:11:17,940 --> 00:11:20,600 anyways, without the terminology. But in the first 177 00:11:20,630 --> 00:11:23,450 chapter, you talk about the difference between altruism and 178 00:11:23,540 --> 00:11:26,810 decency. Can you tease that out a little bit so that we have 179 00:11:26,900 --> 00:11:29,300 that that kind of working vocabulary you have in the book? 180 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:34,490 Unknown: Yeah, altruism is is self sacrifice generally 181 00:11:34,610 --> 00:11:39,470 considered self sacrifice from moral lands, and so the idea is 182 00:11:39,620 --> 00:11:43,450 that other aspects of your life that that contribute to its 183 00:11:43,510 --> 00:11:46,240 being meaningful are not that important, right? You let them 184 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:52,840 go, and decency, by contrast, is the attempt to be a good person 185 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,340 but not necessarily a moral exemplar, right? To integrate 186 00:11:57,610 --> 00:12:01,830 morality right into your life in such a way that it that it has 187 00:12:01,950 --> 00:12:05,250 an important role to play, but not everything has to be 188 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:11,250 subsumed right to it. One of the things I say a little bit later 189 00:12:11,670 --> 00:12:15,480 that's probably worth bringing up now is I introduce the notion 190 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,800 of of moral grace or moral gracefulness, right? And if we 191 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:25,880 think of morality as something that something that should 192 00:12:26,030 --> 00:12:30,770 dominate our lives, so that becomes such a burden. Then we 193 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,070 become a little bit more alienated from our lives, right? 194 00:12:34,190 --> 00:12:39,170 But if we think of morality as offering us opportunities to 195 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:43,750 make the world better, opportunities to help where we 196 00:12:43,930 --> 00:12:48,190 can that won't dominate our lives in the same way, and so we 197 00:12:48,340 --> 00:12:53,320 can move with a little moral gracefulness through the world, 198 00:12:54,100 --> 00:12:58,600 right? Rather than carrying our morality as a burden, we can see 199 00:12:58,990 --> 00:13:03,420 it more as an opportunity. Now there will be moral burdens in 200 00:13:03,450 --> 00:13:07,500 our life. That's you know that's just taken for granted, but we 201 00:13:07,740 --> 00:13:12,360 don't want to think of all of morality as this burden that we 202 00:13:12,450 --> 00:13:15,840 have to shoulder, right? From the time we can figure out what 203 00:13:15,900 --> 00:13:18,060 morality is until the time we die. 204 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:23,000 PJ Wehry: Yeah. Is there? And I'm I'm trying to just make sure 205 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,120 I'm tracking with you here. One is that when we talk, when you 206 00:13:26,150 --> 00:13:29,420 talk about alienated, that's connected to that austerity. 207 00:13:30,050 --> 00:13:35,300 Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So I I understand that is in some ways 208 00:13:35,570 --> 00:13:40,310 it sounds like morality works better if I'm understanding you 209 00:13:40,340 --> 00:13:42,580 correctly when it's inspirational rather than 210 00:13:43,630 --> 00:13:47,380 obligation, or it's generative rather than obligatory. 211 00:13:48,340 --> 00:13:51,100 Unknown: I would say that's often the case. I want to be a 212 00:13:51,100 --> 00:13:54,490 little careful here, right? Yeah, you know the ancient 213 00:13:54,490 --> 00:14:00,270 philosopher Aristotle often said that certain things he was 214 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:05,100 saying were true, and used the phrase true in general and for 215 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:05,760 the most part. 216 00:14:06,630 --> 00:14:07,800 PJ Wehry: Yes, I 217 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:09,420 Unknown: love that phrase, right? 218 00:14:09,690 --> 00:14:09,750 PJ Wehry: Yeah. 219 00:14:10,470 --> 00:14:14,220 Unknown: So I don't want to say that it's always the case, 220 00:14:14,820 --> 00:14:19,470 right? That inspirational morality that comes out of 221 00:14:19,500 --> 00:14:22,670 inspiration is going to be better than maladap that comes 222 00:14:22,850 --> 00:14:27,080 off out of a sense of burden, but I think in general and for 223 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,270 the most part, right, it will be better. 224 00:14:30,379 --> 00:14:34,009 PJ Wehry: One of the examples you give is in Copenhagen: the 225 00:14:34,009 --> 00:14:37,429 the difference in the way they view the subway versus people in 226 00:14:37,489 --> 00:14:44,889 New York. Yes, and one of the things that occurred to me, and 227 00:14:44,949 --> 00:14:50,769 I think I have some idea of how you'd answer this. It one 228 00:14:50,799 --> 00:14:53,319 there's the building up, and maybe this is part of being 229 00:14:53,469 --> 00:14:55,929 decent, is that you are encouraging people not to all be 230 00:14:56,019 --> 00:14:58,749 moral exemplars, but to be decent and to raise kind of the 231 00:14:58,839 -->

00:15:02,339 culture up where. That becomes the norm where people look at 232 00:15:02,399 --> 00:15:05,429 you weird when you do something indecent, right? You're like, 233 00:15:05,759 --> 00:15:09,059 why? Why would you do that? And and so lifting up the whole 234 00:15:09,239 --> 00:15:14,969 culture of it is there, and and maybe this is about difficult 235 00:15:15,029 --> 00:15:18,389 times and moral and the call to being a moral exemplar just in 236 00:15:18,629 --> 00:15:21,709 the the time and the place, but when your whole culture is 237 00:15:21,919 --> 00:15:25,699 problematic, like so, for instance, I mean the classic 238 00:15:25,819 --> 00:15:30,739 moral, you know, case is the Gestapo is coming, and you have 239 00:15:30,799 --> 00:15:34,039 to make a choice to either give the Jews over or to hide them in 240 00:15:34,069 --> 00:15:38,899 your house, right? In that case, it feels like you're being 241 00:15:39,049 --> 00:15:43,629 forced into a moral exemplar situation, or do you like how 242 00:15:43,749 --> 00:15:46,299 does how does decency fit into those situations, or is that 243 00:15:46,359 --> 00:15:49,749 just not? Are you talking about more like the building up of 244 00:15:49,839 --> 00:15:50,169 culture? 245 00:15:50,770 --> 00:15:55,720 Unknown: Good, no, it's a really good question, PJ. The the let 246 00:15:55,720 --> 00:16:00,450 me step back and and introduce a concept from the philosopher 247 00:16:00,540 --> 00:16:04,020 Thomas Nagel, and then swing back to the question. Right, so 248 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,950 Nagel's got this great essay, "Moral Luck, and he talks about 249 00:16:08,070 --> 00:16:12,000 four different kinds of moral luck. Right, and one of the 250 00:16:12,150 --> 00:16:14,850 kinds of moral luck is, I think, is I think he uses the word 251 00:16:14,940 --> 00:16:19,080 conditional. Right, it's the conditions that you find 252 00:16:19,110 --> 00:16:22,280 yourself under. So that there may be certain conditions you 253 00:16:22,370 --> 00:16:26,810 find yourself under that you are morally required to sacrifice 254 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,320 more than you would be under other conditions, and he uses 255 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:35,090 the the Nazi example, right? I say something about that in the 256 00:16:35,180 --> 00:16:39,410 book relative to the climate crisis. So in the climate 257 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:43,540 crisis, right, we are, I believe, called to do things 258 00:16:43,660 --> 00:16:47,260 that are going to be more inconvenient for us than they 259 00:16:47,380 --> 00:16:50,650 might otherwise be. Certainly, more inconvenient than if we 260 00:16:50,770 --> 00:16:54,070 were not in a situation of a climate crisis. So I think that 261 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:59,710 there are situations where you have this word "conditional. We 262 00:17:00,100 --> 00:17:03,300 have this conditional or situational moral luck that we 263 00:17:03,510 --> 00:17:08,040 find ourselves in a situation in which more is required of us now 264 00:17:09,270 --> 00:17:12,900 than would be required under other conditions. I actually 265 00:17:12,990 --> 00:17:16,110 think in the U.S. to bring the example a little bit closer to 266 00:17:16,260 --> 00:17:23,600 home, right? We often some places are in a situation of 267 00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:29,090 conditional moral luck, and that's when ICE comes through 268 00:17:30,020 --> 00:17:34,040 and starts arresting people, arresting your neighbors, 269 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:39,920 throwing them in cages. That those people have an obligation 270 00:17:39,980 --> 00:17:43,510 to do something that might actually expose them to some 271 00:17:43,570 --> 00:17:47,830 kind of harm that people who are not in that situation don't 272 00:17:47,890 --> 00:17:52,330 have. So people say in Minneapolis, they this was not 273 00:17:52,420 --> 00:17:54,400 comfortable for them. It was dangerous. Obviously, it was 274 00:17:54,430 --> 00:17:58,600 dangerous. Two people were murdered, but there was an 275 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,610 obligation that they had that say I'm living in Asheville and 276 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,540 we haven't had a surge yet, right? That we don't have that 277 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:11,100 obligation. But if this comes to Asheville, right, we will have 278 00:18:11,130 --> 00:18:15,270 an obligation, right, to make ourselves more vulnerable than 279 00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:20,160 we would otherwise, right? So it's right, I think PJ, to say 280 00:18:20,490 --> 00:18:23,660 that decency, right, is not something that we can always 281 00:18:23,690 --> 00:18:28,670 just claim a get out of jail free card with, right? Yeah. 282 00:18:29,210 --> 00:18:32,510 Sometimes we're just called upon, given the conditions, to 283 00:18:32,570 --> 00:18:33,260 do something more. 284 00:18:35,570 --> 00:18:38,870 PJ Wehry: As an example, and I, I believe I read this in the 285 00:18:39,050 --> 00:18:42,550 biography. You did some work with apartheid, anti-apartheid. 286 00:18:42,940 --> 00:18:49,450 Yeah, yes, yeah. Sorry, anti-apartheid. That's how. I I 287 00:18:49,540 --> 00:18:53,500 hope everyone understood what I was saying there. But that would 288 00:18:53,530 --> 00:18:56,920 be like living in South Africa during that time. That was, I 289 00:18:56,950 --> 00:19:00,700 mean, clear. Sure. At that point, battle lines are drawn, 290 00:19:00,790 --> 00:19:06,360 right? Like, I mean, like cultural, like it becomes a you 291 00:19:06,420 --> 00:19:08,880 have to make a choice. You can't you can't if sitting on the 292 00:19:08,940 --> 00:19:13,110 sidelines would have been would have been making a choice as 293 00:19:13,230 --> 00:19:15,150 well. If that makes sense, would that be fair? The 294 00:19:15,900 --> 00:19:18,900 Unknown: civil rights movement in in the South in the 1950s and 295 00:19:18,900 --> 00:19:21,770 1960s.

That's another example of that. If you're white in the 296 00:19:21,770 --> 00:19:25,940 South, you have obligations that that may make you vulnerable. 297 00:19:27,260 --> 00:19:30,980 That people in the North right didn't have at that moment. 298 00:19:34,070 --> 00:19:37,730 PJ Wehry: And so you you move like, and I love this movement 299 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,010 here through the book. You start out with just like, so we have 300 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:46,270 like these edge cases, and you know that's. I apologize, you 301 00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:48,610 know that's the classic philosophy question. It's like, 302 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,890 well, let's talk about like the really difficult cases. You're 303 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,590 like, well, kind of the book's about like how can you be better 304 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:56,620 with the people. You know, I love you start this way, the 305 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:58,750 people right around you, and like, no, I don't want to do 306 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:05,190 that. That's actual like. Work, like, can you talk a little bit 307 00:20:05,190 --> 00:20:08,340 about that movement? And and I think even at the end of the 308 00:20:08,430 --> 00:20:11,100 book, you talk a little bit about how this will give people 309 00:20:11,100 --> 00:20:13,410 the chance to become moral exemplars. Like, there's that in 310 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:18,360 between stage, but it really starts with like we don't want 311 00:20:18,390 --> 00:20:21,140 moral exemplars who aren't good to the people around them, 312 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:23,720 right? We don't want to like like this kind of like oh you 313 00:20:23,780 --> 00:20:26,840 shoot off into the stratosphere and actually you're a jerk. But 314 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,450 we because of the publicity because sometimes acting. 315 00:20:29,750 --> 00:20:32,720 Anyways, I digress. Yeah, go ahead. 316 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:38,420 Unknown: Well, the the structure actually came from some of my 317 00:20:38,870 --> 00:20:43,150 reading of David Hume and his view of morality. So for Hume, 318 00:20:43,630 --> 00:20:48,190 morality begins in sympathy, and the idea is to extend it out. 319 00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:49,420 PJ Wehry: Yeah. 320 00:20:49,660 --> 00:20:53,410 Unknown: So the structure of the book starts with right common 321 00:20:53,500 --> 00:20:59,080 decency to people who are around you, and then it moves to to 322 00:20:59,380 --> 00:21:02,550 people who are not around you. Maybe people who are people who 323 00:21:02,550 --> 00:21:05,610 are more distant in space, or people more distant in time, 324 00:21:05,970 --> 00:21:08,940 generations that aren't here yet, right? And then it moves 325 00:21:09,060 --> 00:21:13,830 out further to non-human animals, right? Our relationship 326 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:19,050 to to them. So what I tried to was start close, and then move 327 00:21:19,260 --> 00:21:23,810 out, which which I think parallels in a way Hume's idea 328 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:29,210 of taking our sympathetic relationship to people who are 329 00:21:29,300 --> 00:21:32,780 around us and figuring out how to extend that out. So that's 330 00:21:32,810 --> 00:21:37,010 the structure, and in doing that, right, I start with the 331 00:21:37,250 --> 00:21:41,890 idea of common decency, holding a door for people, the people in 332 00:21:41,980 --> 00:21:45,520 Copenhagen who who when the when people are getting off the 333 00:21:45,670 --> 00:21:48,160 train, they stand to the side. They don't try to crowd in and 334 00:21:48,190 --> 00:21:55,840 get a good space. I think I talked about when your kid does 335 00:21:55,900 --> 00:21:59,800 something that's really irritating, right? Taking taking 336 00:21:59,890 --> 00:22:02,880 a breath and looking at them, actually looking at them in the 337 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,230 face, right? I try to do that. By the way, also, oftentimes 338 00:22:07,380 --> 00:22:11,040 when people who are who are unhoused on the street, right, 339 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,550 and ask for money, right, even when I can't give it to them, I 340 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,090 try to look at them, right, and say something to them, right. 341 00:22:18,390 --> 00:22:22,280 See them, see them as a fellow human being, right? The one 342 00:22:22,820 --> 00:22:27,020 example that got pushback, although it was an example that 343 00:22:27,020 --> 00:22:32,570 I saw a couple places, was somebody sitting next to you, a 344 00:22:32,660 --> 00:22:36,710 colleague with hot coffee, and they leave the room, and you 345 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,380 take a napkin and put it over their cup, so it keeps the the 346 00:22:39,830 --> 00:22:41,920 coffee warm, right? I was going to 347 00:22:42,010 --> 00:22:42,940 PJ Wehry: ask you about it. So I thought it 348 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,500 Unknown: was a good example. Some people think some people 349 00:22:47,500 --> 00:22:53,680 like, oh, that's gross, right? So I, you know, I'm not going to 350 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:58,120 die on that particular hill, but I think it's a, I think it's an 351 00:22:58,150 --> 00:22:59,050 interesting example. 352 00:23:01,180 --> 00:23:03,960 PJ Wehry: I maybe it's because there's no culture. I've never 353 00:23:04,020 --> 00:23:06,990 seen someone do that before, and so messing with someone else's 354 00:23:07,110 --> 00:23:10,560 food without asking, I could see. I don't. I understand the 355 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,870 thought, and it's not. It's not gross. There's nothing wrong 356 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,080 with it. It's just. I think people are like, if I came back 357 00:23:16,170 --> 00:23:20,910 and I was like, whom has my coffee? Right. Yeah. That's 358 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,320 really. Here's the other thing, PJ. Is like we're all we're all 359 00:23:24,500 --> 00:23:27,260 working with to go cups with the

plastic thing on top, so no, you 360 00:23:27,290 --> 00:23:32,180 can't even do it anyway. Well, but if we're if we're listening 361 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,210 to the climate crisis properly, then we should be. Right, right. 362 00:23:35,390 --> 00:23:35,480 Fair 363 00:23:35,930 --> 00:23:36,050 Unknown: enough. 364 00:23:39,230 --> 00:23:43,180 PJ Wehry: No, that's that kind of derailed me a little bit. 365 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,660 That was funny. I love one thing. This connects with my 366 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:51,250 previous guest. It'll be the episode right before this one. I 367 00:23:51,310 --> 00:23:55,300 actually had on to talk about the ethics of dog ownership, and 368 00:23:56,050 --> 00:23:58,690 still on the one hand, I love that you know that kind of 369 00:23:58,690 --> 00:24:01,590 extends out. Dog ownership is interesting because the 370 00:24:01,710 --> 00:24:05,430 non-human animal side-it's like actually they're very close to 371 00:24:05,550 --> 00:24:08,880 us. But the the other thing that's interesting is what she 372 00:24:09,270 --> 00:24:14,310 put it. Kind of the foundation of it is at the the and I think 373 00:24:14,340 --> 00:24:19,890 this this is very congenial to your project. To be curious is 374 00:24:20,190 --> 00:24:26,420 the foundation of of ethics, and so that idea of stopping and 375 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,450 actually paying attention, like when your dog is barking, not 376 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,120 just being like "stop that, but like "Okay, why is the dog 377 00:24:32,210 --> 00:24:36,650 barking? Very similar. I I have five kids and we homeschool, so 378 00:24:37,610 --> 00:24:41,530 when you talk about that breath, I've heard that I needed the 379 00:24:41,620 --> 00:24:46,360 reminder, so thank you. But that, how does does being 380 00:24:46,450 --> 00:24:49,960 curious is? I think in some ways that kind of sounds similar to 381 00:24:50,230 --> 00:24:53,860 sympathy. Is that is that a useful addition, or do you have 382 00:24:53,980 --> 00:24:54,760 a pushback on that? 383 00:24:55,390 --> 00:24:58,960 Unknown: No, no, no. Let me step back to to talk about an early 384 00:24:59,050 --> 00:25:01,680 frame, and then come back. Forward to to curiosity. Sure, I 385 00:25:01,740 --> 00:25:03,240 think it's related, right? So 386 00:25:03,450 --> 00:25:03,990 PJ Wehry: yeah, at 387 00:25:04,620 --> 00:25:07,470 Unknown: the end of the book, you know, I what I say that 388 00:25:07,950 --> 00:25:13,050 people decent. The fundamental decency is recognizing that 389 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,350 there are others out there who have lives to live, right? That 390 00:25:16,410 --> 00:25:20,810 they they need shelter, they need food, they don't they don't 391 00:25:20,810 --> 00:25:23,270 want to feel isolated. They want to feel that their lives mean 392 00:25:23,420 --> 00:25:27,980 something to someone. That and that what we need to to do is 393 00:25:28,100

--> 00:25:32,450 recognize that, right? And that that that our that moral decency 394 00:25:32,870 --> 00:25:36,920 emerges first and foremost from that recognition, right? But if 395 00:25:36,980 --> 00:25:40,420 we start there, right, then you can see that that's going to 396 00:25:40,450 --> 00:25:43,840 lead toward curiosity, right? Because I'm going to recognize, 397 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,990 okay, that that personality isn't simply there for my needs, 398 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,190 right? And I and I don't even know always what that person 399 00:25:51,250 --> 00:25:54,070 wants. Well, what that person is about. What's meaningful to that 400 00:25:54,130 --> 00:26:00,370 person? So, in that sense, from the principle that I've started, 401 00:26:00,850 --> 00:26:04,110 I started the book with. I think it's a short space to say 402 00:26:04,260 --> 00:26:07,680 curiosity is going to play an important role because you you 403 00:26:07,950 --> 00:26:11,670 assume that you don't always know what that other person is 404 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:13,500 about because they're not you. 405 00:26:15,030 --> 00:26:17,850 PJ Wehry: And I feel like curiosity and sympathy are not 406 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,470 the same thing, but they're adjacent. I think that curiosity 407 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,070 will lead to sympathy. It's just her focusing on a different step 408 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,170 in the process. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 409 00:26:27,350 --> 00:26:27,950 Unknown: I think that's right. 410 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:30,560 PJ Wehry: And I did want to ask about this, and this might be 411 00:26:30,620 --> 00:26:35,360 getting too granular. But as we look at the table of contents, 412 00:26:35,900 --> 00:26:39,530 I'm looking at the chapter titles, and I one nine rules for 413 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,370 moral decency that should be followed strictly and without 414 00:26:42,430 --> 00:26:45,550 exception is a hilarious way to end. So thank you for that. I 415 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,900 love that title, especially because the coffee cup thing. 416 00:26:50,650 --> 00:26:55,570 Anyways, that was you know I'm not saying philosophers are 417 00:26:55,630 --> 00:26:58,120 never funny, but it's always a little bit of humor in 418 00:26:58,150 --> 00:27:01,080 philosophy is always enjoyable. Sometimes it doesn't show up, 419 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:07,470 but when we talk about decency toward those around us, I notice 420 00:27:07,500 --> 00:27:10,530 that you you capitalize that differently from the other 421 00:27:10,620 --> 00:27:11,460 chapters in the book. 422 00:27:13,380 --> 00:27:17,220 Unknown: Nobody's pointed that out before. I I would say I 423 00:27:17,340 --> 00:27:18,990 would say blame the copyright person. 424 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,100 PJ Wehry: Oh yeah. Well, it looks intentional. 425 00:27:22,610 --> 00:27:23,810 Unknown: Yeah. What's the what? Yeah, 426 00:27:24,170 --> 00:27:27,830 PJ

Wehry: it's it looks intentional. It's decency toward 427 00:27:28,100 --> 00:27:29,420 those around 428 00:27:30,380 --> 00:27:30,830 Unknown: us. Okay. And 429 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,130 PJ Wehry: so you have decency capitalized, those capitalized, 430 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:35,180 and us capitalized. 431 00:27:35,930 --> 00:27:39,620 Unknown: Yeah. That's yeah. That's that's the copy edit, 432 00:27:40,070 --> 00:27:43,390 right? Oh, the copy of the talk. I ran 433 00:27:43,690 --> 00:27:44,590 PJ Wehry: so much into that. 434 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:52,420 Unknown: Yeah. No. Okay. Yeah. No. I thought you were like 435 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:52,810 making a 436 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,540 PJ Wehry: comment about like the other or 437 00:27:57,460 --> 00:28:01,920 Unknown: no, no, no. It's it's the the the no the copy the copy 438 00:28:01,980 --> 00:28:05,430 editor says, "Hey, look, right. This this is what gets 439 00:28:05,490 --> 00:28:11,070 capitalized, and this is what gets lowercase. And um, and far 440 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,030 be it for me to argue that fits into the point with the copy 441 00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:15,270 editor. 442 00:28:15,570 --> 00:28:20,900 PJ Wehry: Okay, got you. I I got you. Sorry, that's really funny. 443 00:28:21,230 --> 00:28:24,110 I was really excited about that question. I was like, I think I 444 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:25,010 noticed something. No, 445 00:28:25,580 --> 00:28:27,290 Unknown: that's really disappointing. But 446 00:28:28,250 --> 00:28:30,440 PJ Wehry: oh no, no, that's that's fine. That's really this. 447 00:28:30,620 --> 00:28:41,020 This in some ways is even better. Sorry, so we go from 448 00:28:41,260 --> 00:28:44,620 decency toward those around us, and then the next chapter is 449 00:28:44,770 --> 00:28:48,190 widening the circle, and then widening the circle again. Yeah, 450 00:28:48,460 --> 00:28:52,540 and I think there's good philosophical reasons, kind of 451 00:28:52,540 --> 00:28:55,450 the history of philosophy, why even though dogs may be close to 452 00:28:55,540 --> 00:28:59,620 us, they're still the step after other humans because that's the 453 00:28:59,770 --> 00:29:03,150 way that we have organized, yeah. Our though at least 454 00:29:03,210 --> 00:29:06,360 Western society is that that fair say? 455 00:29:06,750 --> 00:29:09,540 Unknown: That's right. It's you know, and that you know that was 456 00:29:10,230 --> 00:29:14,460 a point of reflection. I just thought it's going to be easier 457 00:29:14,550 --> 00:29:18,750 for people to see if I start with people who are more distant 458 00:29:18,750 --> 00:29:24,020 in space and in time, and then move toward. beings that can 459 00:29:24,140 --> 00:29:25,250 feel more distant to us. 460 00:29:26,420 --> 00:29:29,090 PJ Wehry: I'm curious. When you, I would love to just hear in 461 00:29:29,180 --> 00:29:33,410 general more about space and time. But you talked about in 462 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,530 time thinking about generations in the future. 463 00:29:37,220 --> 00:29:37,310 Unknown: Is 464 00:29:37,670 --> 00:29:42,190 PJ Wehry: there? Do we have any obligations, or is there a sense 465 00:29:42,250 --> 00:29:44,260 of decency towards people in the past? 466 00:29:44,830 --> 00:29:46,990 Unknown: Yeah, this is an important issue, and I don't 467 00:29:47,020 --> 00:29:52,210 think I take it up in the book. The obviously we have some sense 468 00:29:53,710 --> 00:29:57,190 of it of decency. So, for instance, right when someone 469 00:29:57,670 --> 00:30:01,560 dies, right, we we don't just. Like throw them in a in a wood 470 00:30:01,620 --> 00:30:05,940 chipper, right, right, right. We we think that the that there's 471 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:11,520 some obligation to them, and that that you know if if our 472 00:30:11,610 --> 00:30:14,010 feelings for them are not entirely negative, right, some 473 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,010 obligation when we're talking about them to say something 474 00:30:17,070 --> 00:30:24,980 respectful, right. That and there is a book by David Boonen, 475 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:30,860 philosopher in Colorado, called "Dead Wrong. And Boonen argues 476 00:30:31,010 --> 00:30:33,560 that we have a number of obligations toward the to the 477 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,670 dead, and he uses an analogy, which I think is a really 478 00:30:37,730 --> 00:30:42,880 interesting one. He said, "Look, suppose it was the case that 479 00:30:43,390 --> 00:30:47,740 somebody is, say, in a long-term relationship with someone else. 480 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:52,030 Let's say they're married, or the and the person that, and I'm 481 00:30:52,090 --> 00:30:55,870 going to use he and she just to to make it easier for the 482 00:30:55,900 --> 00:31:00,510 example. So, so he's married to her. She has had a series of 483 00:31:00,660 --> 00:31:05,040 affairs that he doesn't know about, never knows about, never 484 00:31:05,190 --> 00:31:10,620 finds out about. It violated their understanding, but he 485 00:31:10,740 --> 00:31:16,320 never found out about it. And and Boonen says, "Look, would we 486 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:22,370 say that his life went worse? Now, if we take a purely 487 00:31:22,550 --> 00:31:25,790 subjective view, his life didn't go worse because he never knew. 488 00:31:27,050 --> 00:31:30,560 But if we say, "Look, there's something about that that 489 00:31:30,770 --> 00:31:34,610 diminishes the relationship, and in that way diminishes his life, 490 00:31:35,750 --> 00:31:40,400 right? Then we say there's there that that our experience doesn't 491 00:31:40,550 --> 00:31:44,380 simply reduce to the subjective experience. There's something 492 00:31:45,310 --> 00:31:48,010 outside our subjective experience that contributes to 493 00:31:48,460 --> 00:31:53,860 making our life go better or worse. Right now, if if we 494 00:31:54,070 --> 00:31:57,760 ratify

that, and I think Woonin is right here, then you can see 495 00:31:57,910 --> 00:32:02,550 the translation over into into the past, people who've died, 496 00:32:02,610 --> 00:32:08,520 right? That if if that their lives can go a bit have, I want 497 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:13,200 to be careful about how I put this. Their lives might have 498 00:32:13,410 --> 00:32:20,370 gone worse, right, or will have gone worse if we disrespect them 499 00:32:20,700 --> 00:32:25,640 afterwards, right? Even though they won't experience it, right? 500 00:32:25,820 --> 00:32:29,270 There's still something about that, right? That diminishes 501 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:37,850 their life, right? And and this also goes weirdly to the climate 502 00:32:37,910 --> 00:32:44,560 crisis, right? Right. So I'm a boomer, right? We are the worst 503 00:32:44,710 --> 00:32:47,650 generation on the climate crisis. We complete, and I will 504 00:32:47,770 --> 00:32:49,930 say this when I teach. I teach climate crisis a lot to my 505 00:32:49,990 --> 00:32:53,440 students, right? We really screwed it up, right? We we we 506 00:32:54,700 --> 00:32:58,450 had the opportunity. We messed it up, right? We knew, right? 507 00:32:58,570 --> 00:33:01,050 But we didn't take care. And I won't get into the history of 508 00:33:01,050 --> 00:33:07,410 why we knew and the dates and stuff, but we knew. Let's say 509 00:33:07,620 --> 00:33:14,610 Gen Z, right, or Gen Alpha comes along, and everybody from the 510 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:21,860 Boomer generation dies, and people in say Gen Alpha or Gen 511 00:33:22,010 --> 00:33:28,310 Beta, people resent us. Right, they're angry at us for what 512 00:33:28,370 --> 00:33:31,670 we've we've done. I think that diminishes us, even if we're not 513 00:33:31,790 --> 00:33:36,050 there. Right, that diminishes our generation. It diminishes 514 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:43,150 the lives of people in our generation. So the what it's a 515 00:33:43,270 --> 00:33:49,120 it's a weird kind of backwards causality, right? But I I think 516 00:33:49,420 --> 00:33:53,290 that actually when you reflect on it, it makes some sense. All 517 00:33:53,380 --> 00:33:57,100 of which is to say, right, that I think that there can be 518 00:33:57,250 --> 00:34:01,470 decency and indecency toward people in the past, people whose 519 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,680 lives are are no longer there, and of course, you know, a lot 520 00:34:04,710 --> 00:34:08,010 of indigenous groups, right, already recognize that they they 521 00:34:08,190 --> 00:34:12,390 see themselves as connected to their ancestors and needing to 522 00:34:12,420 --> 00:34:17,220 respect their ancestors, and I and I think that's a more say a 523 00:34:17,310 --> 00:34:22,700 more spiritual expression of something that that captures a 524 00:34:22,730 --> 00:34:25,940 phenomenon that I think is there for us. Again, I didn't discuss 525 00:34:26,030 --> 00:34:29,840 in the book. I didn't

think I've thought about this more since 526 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,270 then. But I think you're right in asking the question. 527 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,540 PJ Wehry: Yeah, I had Joel Harrington on. I'm hoping to 528 00:34:35,570 --> 00:34:38,930 have him back on sometime in the upcoming months, and he's a 529 00:34:39,020 --> 00:34:42,700 historian, and his main focus in history is to humanize the past. 530 00:34:43,060 --> 00:34:48,640 So that was, anyways, that's a and your one. Your answer was 531 00:34:48,700 --> 00:34:51,940 great. Thank you. And it's really interesting to see it 532 00:34:52,030 --> 00:34:55,510 translated across disciplines to hear like the similarities, but 533 00:34:55,540 --> 00:34:57,610 also like the different argumentation. So I really 534 00:34:57,610 --> 00:35:07,050 appreciate it. So then, how? And this is interesting. I think the 535 00:35:07,260 --> 00:35:09,930 coffee, the coffee thing is still sticking with me. But the 536 00:35:11,850 --> 00:35:15,840 do you get a lot of pushback on the non-human animals part, or 537 00:35:15,900 --> 00:35:19,620 do you feel like that is something that most people 538 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:24,020 understand? And what is your main focus in when you're 539 00:35:24,110 --> 00:35:26,030 talking in that chapter about non-human animals? 540 00:35:26,630 --> 00:35:30,560 Unknown: Okay, so the focus is on you know on our relationship, 541 00:35:30,860 --> 00:35:33,350 and there are these various debates that have occurred. So 542 00:35:33,410 --> 00:35:38,780 there's one position that I have some sympathy with is called 543 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:43,150 moral individualism, right? And moral individualism is the view 544 00:35:43,270 --> 00:35:47,950 that you that you treat each creature not according to its 545 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:54,250 species but according to its particular abilities. And Peter 546 00:35:54,370 --> 00:35:59,920 Singer is an example of a moral individualist. And the the one 547 00:36:00,370 --> 00:36:05,940 of the implications of that is that the experience of, say, an 548 00:36:06,030 --> 00:36:11,550 adult chimpanzee can be as rich as the experience of, say, a 549 00:36:11,700 --> 00:36:16,170 three-year-old human, which means, and this is his argument, 550 00:36:16,590 --> 00:36:19,410 we shouldn't do anything to a chimpanzee that we wouldn't be 551 00:36:19,530 --> 00:36:22,040 willing to do to the three-year-old, right now, some 552 00:36:22,070 --> 00:36:24,980 people say that that involves cruelty to the three-year-old, 553 00:36:25,010 --> 00:36:27,410 but I think that's getting the argument the wrong way around, 554 00:36:27,740 --> 00:36:27,860 right? 555 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:28,220 PJ Wehry: Yes, 556 00:36:28,610 --> 00:36:31,310 Unknown: right. I think, but I don't think that's where he's 557 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,290 headed, right? But 558 00:36:33,860 --> 00:36:34,850 PJ Wehry: start using three-year-olds for 559 00:36:34,850 --> 00:36:36,470 experimentation. Yeah, I don't think that was 560 00:36:36,590 --> 00:36:36,680 Unknown: his 561 00:36:36,980 --> 00:36:37,100 PJ Wehry: point. 562 00:36:37,460 --> 00:36:40,630 Unknown: Exactly. Although he hasn't always been on good on 563 00:36:40,660 --> 00:36:45,490 disability, but we'll put that one to the side, right? But in 564 00:36:45,490 --> 00:36:47,800 any of this, that's that's that's moral individual, and I 565 00:36:47,860 --> 00:36:51,190 have I have some sympathy with that. I don't think I've thought 566 00:36:51,190 --> 00:36:54,340 it through enough to say how much I ratify, but I think 567 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:59,170 there's there seems something right about that position. The 568 00:36:59,830 --> 00:37:02,310 of course there are complications in trying to 569 00:37:02,310 --> 00:37:05,880 compare the richness of something in one species versus 570 00:37:05,970 --> 00:37:09,750 the richness of a life in another species. But I think 571 00:37:09,930 --> 00:37:13,740 that that in this very difficult terrain, right? I think that 572 00:37:13,890 --> 00:37:17,910 stakes out a place that that has has some significance, right? 573 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,970 Now, having said that, I haven't gotten a lot of pushback, PJ. 574 00:37:23,810 --> 00:37:28,310 But I teach at Warren Wilson. Warren Wilson is a college that 575 00:37:28,310 --> 00:37:30,800 is well to the left, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, 576 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:30,860 PJ Wehry: yeah. 577 00:37:32,959 --> 00:37:38,929 Unknown: And but I have gotten I have gotten pushback from a 578 00:37:39,049 --> 00:37:44,829 couple of students at Warren Wilson in denying that trees 579 00:37:45,159 --> 00:37:50,529 have the right neural structure to feel pain, right? Right. So 580 00:37:50,950 --> 00:37:51,460 PJ Wehry: yeah, yeah, yeah, 581 00:37:51,940 --> 00:37:53,980 Unknown: yeah. Like if I'm getting pushback, I'm getting 582 00:37:54,010 --> 00:37:55,120 pushback from the other end. 583 00:37:56,020 --> 00:37:56,620 PJ Wehry: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 584 00:37:57,790 --> 00:38:04,650 Unknown: But I, I, I think that most people. Let me be careful. 585 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,830 I think that a lot people, certainly a lot more people, 586 00:38:08,670 --> 00:38:12,600 have come to realize the richness of our fellow 587 00:38:12,720 --> 00:38:16,350 creatures. Many of our fellow creatures over the last, say, 588 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:21,440 1015, 20 years, and as that richness has been recognized, I 589 00:38:21,620 --> 00:38:25,820 think that what I'm saying, although people might not agree 590 00:38:25,970 --> 00:38:31,160 with it in in in total, but it's going to resonate for them to 591 00:38:31,310 --> 00:38:32,090 one extent or another. 592 00:38:33,110 --> 00:38:35,930 PJ Wehry: Yeah, and I I sense that from at least from when I 593 00:38:35,990 --> 00:38:38,240 was a kid, the way that

people talked about animals, I think 594 00:38:38,270 --> 00:38:42,130 there's a more awareness, and I and if you talk at an abstract 595 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:46,450 level, I generally find people agree. It's when you start you 596 00:38:46,510 --> 00:38:48,130 start saying, "Well, we shouldn't be doing this, and 597 00:38:48,130 --> 00:38:51,970 people are like, "But I like that, you know. It's like, but 598 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,600 that's that's very common in morality, and it it takes time, 599 00:38:55,660 --> 00:38:58,630 I think, for the the abstract to filter down. If that 600 00:38:59,260 --> 00:39:01,410 Unknown: also there's complications here, PJ. So, for 601 00:39:01,770 --> 00:39:06,930 instance, right? I mean, farm factory farm maniples involve 602 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:13,830 just scads of cruelty, all kinds of cruelty, right? Yes. But if 603 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,970 we stop tomorrow, right? There are people who live in food 604 00:39:18,030 --> 00:39:22,130 deserts who won't be able to afford to buy food, right? Yeah, 605 00:39:22,310 --> 00:39:26,810 right. Because the the food they buy has to be cheap enough, and 606 00:39:26,870 --> 00:39:31,610 factory farming is what makes animals cheap enough for them to 607 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:36,470 be able to afford them, right? So the these issues in the 608 00:39:36,710 --> 00:39:40,130 abstract, I think we can agree to the principles, and I think 609 00:39:40,190 --> 00:39:44,440 we should, but I think it also becomes more complicated how you 610 00:39:44,620 --> 00:39:48,490 translate the abstract into concrete policy. 611 00:39:49,870 --> 00:39:55,270 PJ Wehry: Well, changes to the system often will involve some 612 00:39:55,390 --> 00:39:57,940 small sacrifices for those who are doing well in the system, 613 00:39:58,030 --> 00:40:03,180 but they often involve hardship for. Those like a lot of, I've 614 00:40:03,240 --> 00:40:05,280 heard people talking about this with climate change and what we 615 00:40:05,370 --> 00:40:10,770 should be telling India to do, and it's like, like I the us 616 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,800 giving up things here in the West are very different from 617 00:40:14,550 --> 00:40:19,500 like the the certain parts of India and their reliance on 618 00:40:19,620 --> 00:40:25,520 coal, for example, like that, are radically bettering their 619 00:40:25,610 --> 00:40:28,490 lives in ways that we just take for granted. Is that 620 00:40:29,179 --> 00:40:31,009 Unknown: that's that's the same kind of thing, yeah. 621 00:40:34,129 --> 00:40:39,289 PJ Wehry: And so, and you know, not. I love to end an interview 622 00:40:39,349 --> 00:40:42,429 on something just like not controversial at all. Your your 623 00:40:42,519 --> 00:40:47,589 last chapter before you kind of sum it all up is on politics and 624 00:40:47,649 --> 00:40:51,759 decency, and it's really it's interesting that you get more 625 00:40:51,879 --> 00:40:56,559 pushback from the the left. I live in Central Florida, so my 626 00:40:56,709 --> 00:41:02,609 my conversations are very very different. But when you talk 627 00:41:02,639 --> 00:41:07,019 about politics and decency, what does decency look like in the 628 00:41:07,259 --> 00:41:10,649 political structure? And is there? And I think what you're 629 00:41:10,679 --> 00:41:13,469 talking about for for the rest of you know morality for the 630 00:41:13,589 --> 00:41:13,889 rest of 631 00:41:14,669 --> 00:41:14,909 Unknown: us. Yeah, 632 00:41:15,300 --> 00:41:17,190 PJ Wehry: it seems to be what does what does politics look 633 00:41:17,250 --> 00:41:20,010 like at the the neighborhood level, at the at the city level, 634 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,660 at the hey, I get to vote once every four years, and I mean, 635 00:41:23,720 --> 00:41:26,240 how powerful is that vote, anyways? Those kinds of 636 00:41:26,300 --> 00:41:26,720 questions. 637 00:41:27,199 --> 00:41:30,979 Unknown: Yeah, and and I think this is very specific to the 638 00:41:32,059 --> 00:41:35,989 kinds of situations people find themselves in, right? Right. We 639 00:41:35,989 --> 00:41:39,229 we talked earlier about the issue of ice and and the climate 640 00:41:39,259 --> 00:41:45,639 crisis, And it's it's not that everybody needs to drop what 641 00:41:45,699 --> 00:41:49,449 they're doing, right, and then throw themselves into into 642 00:41:49,599 --> 00:41:53,139 politics. I've done a lot of organizing, and and I've done a 643 00:41:53,229 --> 00:41:57,429 lot of grassroots organizing training. And one of the things 644 00:41:57,549 --> 00:42:03,029 I said, you'll be unsurprised to hear that after November of 645 00:42:03,059 --> 00:42:12,539 2016, I was asked to do a lot of organizing training, and and so 646 00:42:13,229 --> 00:42:16,709 when I did the training, one of the things that that I brought 647 00:42:16,769 --> 00:42:20,219 up before people was: look, Trump's going to do something 648 00:42:20,369 --> 00:42:24,709 outrageous or say something every day, right? Yep. And if 649 00:42:24,949 --> 00:42:28,639 you and if you follow, you're going to burn out if you get 650 00:42:28,849 --> 00:42:32,389 outraged every time this happens. So what you should 651 00:42:32,449 --> 00:42:36,499 probably do is think, okay, what's an important political 652 00:42:36,619 --> 00:42:43,059 element or political campaign to engage, and how many hours do I? 653 00:42:43,809 --> 00:42:49,179 And say take those couple hours a week, right, and just do that 654 00:42:49,359 --> 00:42:53,139 thing that will make that particular issue better, right? 655 00:42:53,919 --> 00:42:58,809 That seems to me an aspect of decency. I will say, right, that 656 00:42:58,929 --> 00:43:04,649 when I was doing those trainings in 2017 and in 2018, I ended by 657 00:43:04,769 --> 00:43:09,419 saying, "Look, if if you do this, right, four years from 658 00:43:09,479

--> 00:43:14,579 now, right, you'll he'll be gone and you'll still be here. Boy, 659 00:43:14,759 --> 00:43:15,299 was I wrong! 660 00:43:17,759 --> 00:43:21,229 PJ Wehry: Well, kind of, because we had the anyways. That's all 661 00:43:21,349 --> 00:43:25,159 over the place. Yeah, it's it's been a wild ride. 662 00:43:27,259 --> 00:43:31,579 Unknown: Yeah, and I did. And I I did spend 31 years in the 663 00:43:31,639 --> 00:43:34,189 upstate of South Carolina, so I do know what you're talking 664 00:43:34,189 --> 00:43:35,089 about. It was Central Florida. 665 00:43:35,870 --> 00:43:42,370 PJ Wehry: Yes, yes, yes. It's very yes, and I lived in in 666 00:43:42,580 --> 00:43:45,670 Wisconsin, and I you know I've spent time in New England, and 667 00:43:46,240 --> 00:43:50,380 yeah, I one of the things I've enjoyed about the World Cup is 668 00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:54,370 watching Europeans realize how big America is, and I think one 669 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,760 of the things that Americans sometimes don't realize unless 670 00:43:57,850 --> 00:44:00,870 they do travel and just spend time in this place is like just 671 00:44:00,900 --> 00:44:05,910 how different the culture is, and I I think that idea of the 672 00:44:06,330 --> 00:44:11,400 idea of decency is a is a helpful. I don't know that it's 673 00:44:11,430 --> 00:44:17,160 healthy to take a moral exemplar in North Carolina or in New 674 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:21,380 England and transplant it to Florida. It would be a very 675 00:44:21,860 --> 00:44:25,880 different. It would work itself out differently. Is that a fair 676 00:44:25,970 --> 00:44:26,780 way to think about this? 677 00:44:27,140 --> 00:44:28,670 Unknown: I think that's right. That's and that's where the 678 00:44:29,330 --> 00:44:32,180 particularly in talking about politics, where the the local 679 00:44:32,270 --> 00:44:33,290 character of this comes in. 680 00:44:36,770 --> 00:44:39,410 PJ Wehry: Now, and so you end with our stories and our values, 681 00:44:39,530 --> 00:44:46,060 and that's kind of besides your amazing list of nine strictly 682 00:44:46,810 --> 00:44:50,080 strict and without exception rules, you talk about our 683 00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,770 stories and our values. How does that help us kind of sum all 684 00:44:53,860 --> 00:44:55,060 this up? 685 00:44:55,180 --> 00:45:01,110 Unknown: Well, we we often tell stories about our. Right, we're 686 00:45:02,580 --> 00:45:05,490 mostly narrative type creatures. There, there, there, there are 687 00:45:05,580 --> 00:45:08,730 people who are exceptions. There's a fluster, Galen 688 00:45:08,790 --> 00:45:12,330 Strawson, who wrote a book against narrativity, just saying 689 00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:19,830 that we don't have to be narrative, right? But, but we we 690 00:45:19,830 --> 00:45:23,960 we tell stories, and in telling those stories, oftentimes our 691 00:45:24,020 --> 00:45:28,640 values come out, and this often gives us a chance to reflect on 692 00:45:28,670 --> 00:45:34,160 those values. to To say, look, right, this story that I told 693 00:45:34,250 --> 00:45:38,210 you reveals aspects of me that I might or might not want to 694 00:45:38,930 --> 00:45:44,440 endorse as mine, but they are expressions of things that I 695 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:51,280 value. I I can't remember if I used the example of the car 696 00:45:51,430 --> 00:45:54,550 pulling out in front of me slowly. I I know I've used it. 697 00:45:54,790 --> 00:45:57,490 Did I use that in the book? I don't 698 00:45:57,580 --> 00:45:57,790 PJ Wehry: remember. 699 00:45:58,420 --> 00:46:00,190 Unknown: Okay, I can't remember the use of them because I was I 700 00:46:00,190 --> 00:46:04,860 remember talking about this around that time, but the so I 701 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:10,830 was driving home from the gym. This was in South Carolina, and 702 00:46:10,860 --> 00:46:15,120 this car pulls out very slowly in front of me, and I have to I 703 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:19,320 have to slam on my brakes, right? And the car just keeps 704 00:46:19,380 --> 00:46:24,080 going slowly on the road, and I hit the horn, right? And I 705 00:46:24,290 --> 00:46:29,090 don't, I, I, the horn stays on. I, I, I kept the horn on the 706 00:46:29,330 --> 00:46:34,310 whole time. This guy's on the road, right? And I came home and 707 00:46:34,370 --> 00:46:38,510 I told, I this guy did this, and I kept the horn on him the whole 708 00:46:38,570 --> 00:46:41,950 time, and sort of thought about it later, and I thought, you 709 00:46:41,980 --> 00:46:46,390 know, this kind of macho value here that I'm expressing is not 710 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:50,440 something that I actually should be proud of, right? But I was 711 00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:57,280 expressing a value, right? That that I was actually I was 712 00:46:57,310 --> 00:47:01,630 expressing the value in in laying on the horn, right? Yeah, 713 00:47:01,720 --> 00:47:05,490 and and that was a value that I don't think I really should have 714 00:47:05,550 --> 00:47:09,990 been expressing. Right, so oftentimes the ways in which we 715 00:47:10,110 --> 00:47:13,950 talk about ourselves reveal the kinds of things that we value. 716 00:47:14,670 --> 00:47:18,780 So in being curious, sometimes we ought to be curious about our 717 00:47:18,810 --> 00:47:21,920 own stories and what and what those stories are saying about 718 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:25,910 PJ Wehry: us? Do you think there's value even as you? 719 00:47:27,740 --> 00:47:29,780 Sometimes it just becomes apparent as you tell the story 720 00:47:29,900 --> 00:47:32,840 and saying it out loud to somebody and having is is a 721 00:47:32,870 --> 00:47:36,380 great thing. And there's also, as you were talking, I think 722 00:47:36,470 --> 00:47:39,290 about retelling the story from a different perspective. How does 723 00:47:39,380 --> 00:47:44,170 that make me look? Is that is

that useful? Is that useful as 724 00:47:44,260 --> 00:47:44,410 well? 725 00:47:45,339 --> 00:47:47,709 Unknown: Yeah, yeah, right, right. Oh, you're right, right. 726 00:47:47,889 --> 00:47:50,859 I mean, this is the idea. Like, okay, when you're talking to 727 00:47:50,889 --> 00:47:54,069 somebody and you ask them, well, okay, if somebody did that to 728 00:47:54,189 --> 00:47:58,659 you, right, what would that be like for you, right? All right, 729 00:47:58,779 --> 00:48:01,619 and that's switching to the outside perspective, right, and 730 00:48:01,709 --> 00:48:05,429 looking at yourself, right, from the outside and telling telling 731 00:48:05,519 --> 00:48:06,719 the story differently. Yeah. 732 00:48:08,130 --> 00:48:10,800 PJ Wehry: Well, so even and I appreciate your vulnerability, 733 00:48:10,890 --> 00:48:14,700 including the story about laying on the horn. But like from the 734 00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,520 other person's perspective, was that likely to you know it's 735 00:48:17,670 --> 00:48:20,130 like it's like you're driving along and you've you've made a 736 00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,090 mistake and you're going very slow for some unknown reason, 737 00:48:23,540 --> 00:48:27,080 and someone just lays on the horn. How does that, you know, 738 00:48:27,470 --> 00:48:30,680 does that does that cause you to change? I yeah. So to be 739 00:48:30,830 --> 00:48:33,380 vulnerable with you, this is a this is a constant struggle for 740 00:48:33,410 --> 00:48:37,910 me in traffic of like people cut me off, and then I'm like, I 741 00:48:37,970 --> 00:48:41,080 start thinking about how I could, you know, I get angry, 742 00:48:41,290 --> 00:48:43,720 and then I'm like, "How could I? You know, what what could I do? 743 00:48:44,170 --> 00:48:47,020 And I'm like, "There's no there's no scenario where I can 744 00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:49,780 communicate with that person that ends well, right? It's 745 00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,510 like, and so all I'm doing is I'm just sitting in my in my car 746 00:48:52,540 --> 00:48:55,420 and fuming, right? Like at least I know well enough not to like 747 00:48:55,750 --> 00:48:58,150 get you know pull over with them, get out of the car, talk 748 00:48:58,180 --> 00:48:59,080 to them. You know, you see, like, 749 00:49:00,249 --> 00:49:00,309 Unknown: yeah, 750 00:49:00,699 --> 00:49:03,869 PJ Wehry: that's that's that's unhealthy. But to sit there and 751 00:49:03,899 --> 00:49:05,729 be like, well, they really shouldn't do that, and it's 752 00:49:05,729 --> 00:49:08,369 like, okay, and now what? And I'm like, well, and I'm just 753 00:49:08,429 --> 00:49:10,859 fuming with my kids in the car, and they're watching me do that, 754 00:49:11,339 --> 00:49:11,489 right? 755 00:49:12,299 --> 00:49:12,359 Unknown: Yeah, 756 00:49:12,870 --> 00:49:16,200 PJ Wehry: it's like I was like, is that wait? It's like I I just 757 00:49:16,230 --> 00:49:16,860 look like an idiot.

758 00:49:18,150 --> 00:49:21,710 Unknown: Yeah, yeah, you know, and in a case like this, right, 759 00:49:22,250 --> 00:49:26,360 like, like you know, hitting the horn is something they should 760 00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:28,940 have done, not just out of my irritation, but they made a 761 00:49:28,970 --> 00:49:31,730 dangerous move. Like, so you say, look, that was dangerous, 762 00:49:32,180 --> 00:49:32,360 right? 763 00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:32,810 PJ Wehry: Oh yes, 764 00:49:34,250 --> 00:49:36,500 Unknown: and but you know, there's there's a limit, right? 765 00:49:37,070 --> 00:49:38,960 Right. Plus, it's South Carolina. Half the people 766 00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:40,630 driving in front of me have guns anyway. 767 00:49:42,399 --> 00:49:54,279 PJ Wehry: Yes, very much so. Wait, yes. So I wanted to ask 768 00:49:54,279 --> 00:49:56,529 you about the nine rules, but I think that that's just something 769 00:49:56,619 --> 00:50:00,989 that someone should read your book and enjoy. And think about 770 00:50:01,229 --> 00:50:04,379 whether they should put napkins on people's coffee or not. But 771 00:50:07,290 --> 00:50:09,060 Unknown: if people take away nothing from this book, they 772 00:50:09,180 --> 00:50:09,750 really should think 773 00:50:12,300 --> 00:50:20,960 PJ Wehry: about the. Is besides my and I apologize because I did 774 00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,560 the I have the Kindle, so I don't have the the beautiful 775 00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:27,320 yeah. So I don't get you know it's it's not the same showing 776 00:50:27,380 --> 00:50:29,420 the audience and being like hey look you can get on Kindle but 777 00:50:29,720 --> 00:50:34,640 um so besides buying and reading your excellent book which 778 00:50:34,730 --> 00:50:35,240 everyone should do 779 00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:36,320 Unknown: thank you 780 00:50:36,530 --> 00:50:39,140 PJ Wehry: what is something what is something that you would 781 00:50:39,230 --> 00:50:42,280 recommend that people do in response, or they should 782 00:50:42,370 --> 00:50:45,010 meditate on over the next week in response to this conversation 783 00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:45,280 we've had. 784 00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:51,669 Unknown: I guess there's there's lots of things you could 785 00:50:53,379 --> 00:51:00,489 recommend, but one thing, and this doesn't this isn't like of 786 00:51:00,609 --> 00:51:03,869 greater importance than others, but I think it's one thing that 787 00:51:03,929 --> 00:51:08,849 we often forget to do, which is to look at people, right? To 788 00:51:09,059 --> 00:51:14,729 look to look at their faces, and I think it's easier to see the 789 00:51:14,789 --> 00:51:18,509 humanity there if you actually look at their faces. So that's 790 00:51:18,539 --> 00:51:20,519 something that people can think about, right? 791 00:51:20,970 --> 00:51:23,900 PJ Wehry: Yes. Which is is that the first or the second rule? 792 00:51:24,110 --> 00:51:26,990 It's it's one of the one of your first rules. I really love that. 793 00:51:27,290 --> 00:51:27,380 But 794 00:51:27,380 --> 00:51:29,360 Unknown: the idea of just looking at somebody, I think, is 795 00:51:29,450 --> 00:51:34,730 really is really important, right? And you know, somebody 796 00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,880 who is unhoused, right? Somebody who you're irritated with, 797 00:51:40,250 --> 00:51:42,730 somebody who might need some help crossing the street, 798 00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:46,000 whatever. But but to look at look look into people's faces, I 799 00:51:46,090 --> 00:51:51,280 think is is a good practice. I don't do it enough myself, but I 800 00:51:51,370 --> 00:51:53,050 try I try to try myself to do it more. 801 00:51:55,300 --> 00:51:58,390 PJ Wehry: A great and practical answer, and I think a great 802 00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:03,570 start to being truly decent, Todd, Dr. May. Absolute joy 803 00:52:03,720 --> 00:52:04,800 having you on today. Thank you. 804 00:52:05,279 --> 00:52:06,839 Unknown: Well, thanks, B.J. Thanks, thanks for the 805 00:52:06,899 --> 00:52:08,069 interview. It's been a delight.