النص الكامل لحلقة Tiling Towns with Joy, Community HeART

own. Even if it's like a birthday party, I'd much 67 00:04:32,060 --> 00:04:36,020 rather share it with somebody else. So I think that's where my 68 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,620 love of community art comes from, and I feel, especially 69 00:04:39,620 --> 00:04:44,320 after the pandemic, a real recognition of that social 70 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,820 isolation is real. There aren't many opportunities for people to 71 00:04:48,820 --> 00:04:53,140 meet other people and have those small or large conversations 72 00:04:53,140 --> 00:04:57,040 that I think are so important to us as human beings and to share 73 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:01,200 experiences. So I think with Social isolation comes 74 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:05,220 loneliness and unhappiness. And when I was working with a group 75 00:05:05,220 --> 00:05:09,240 of women who have arrived in this country and are trying to 76 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,120 learn English, they said one of the hardest things is just 77 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,660 finding people to actually talk to, because even if you go get 78 00:05:15,660 --> 00:05:18,480 your shopping, it can be click and collect and you may not even 79 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:24,680 speak a word to somebody else. So I think any sort of community 80 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:31,040 activity, be it art or sport, dance, shopping, gardening, 81 00:05:31,100 --> 00:05:34,040 allotments, all those things are really important for human 82 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:39,500 contact. And so I think that's where my desire for community 83 00:05:39,500 --> 00:05:44,620 art comes in is just to sort of combat social isolation and 84 00:05:44,620 --> 00:05:49,780 loneliness, which I think a real sort of problem in our society 85 00:05:49,779 --> 00:05:53,799 today. Yeah, no, I completely agree, and it's really 86 00:05:53,799 --> 00:05:59,079 understanding how relevant arts and crafts are for social 87 00:05:59,079 --> 00:06:03,299 connectivity as well as personal enjoyment. And I was curious, 88 00:06:03,299 --> 00:06:07,799 Jane, in terms of your own courage, because it was 89 00:06:07,799 --> 00:06:12,419 interesting to read, and this is in relation to the fabulous 90 00:06:12,419 --> 00:06:17,999 tiles of happiness project that you only really had the courage 91 00:06:18,239 --> 00:06:22,939 to do an art project like Tiles of Happiness, because you had 92 00:06:22,939 --> 00:06:27,739 moved to Margate, and I wondered what that move gave you, what 93 00:06:27,739 --> 00:06:31,699 was that shift that helped you find the courage? 94 00:06:31,819 --> 00:06:35,299 I mean, the pandemic was a horrible thing. I was working in 95 00:06:35,299 --> 00:06:40,539 London, and it was, it was a dreadful thing. But there's also 96 00:06:40,959 --> 00:06:44,199 positivity in that as well. You know, like changing your 97 00:06:44,199 --> 00:06:48,099 routines and your daily activities and your patterns and 98 00:06:48,099 --> 00:06:52,419 behavior and just having to look at your life differently, I 99 00:06:52,419 --> 00:06:54,699 think that's what the pandemic gave me. It gave me an 100 00:06:54,699 --> 00:06:58,839 opportunity to look at the fact that I was just doing not 101 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,519 Groundhog Day, that wasn't my life at all, but I'd got into 102 00:07:02,759 --> 00:07:09,239 routines and doing things and and wasn't necessarily satisfied 103 00:07:09,479 --> 00:07:13,859 or challenged or really, you know, questioning what I was 104 00:07:13,859 --> 00:07:17,639 doing. And I also have two amazing daughters who were 105 00:07:17,639 --> 00:07:21,439 growing up into incredible independent women with their own 106 00:07:21,439 --> 00:07:25,579 lives, and I was really experiencing empty nesting, 107 00:07:25,819 --> 00:07:28,939 which is another thing that's real. I think the pandemic gave 108 00:07:28,939 --> 00:07:33,499 me an opportunity to shift the focus onto my own life and make 109 00:07:33,499 --> 00:07:38,959 me look at what I was doing and what I wanted to achieve. And I 110 00:07:38,959 --> 00:07:42,039 was, I was looking at, you know, what was I was doing in this 111 00:07:42,039 --> 00:07:46,119 part of my life as I turned 50, what was I actually doing and 112 00:07:46,479 --> 00:07:49,119 wasn't having a crisis and thinking, Oh, my God, I've got 113 00:07:49,119 --> 00:07:51,639 to do something and get a big car. I didn't have the money to 114 00:07:51,639 --> 00:07:54,219 do that anyway. I'm not very materialistic, actually. And I 115 00:07:54,219 --> 00:07:58,059 just kind of thought, what, what do I want to achieve? And I felt 116 00:07:58,059 --> 00:08:02,699 like I'd achieved beyond what I could ever expected as a 117 00:08:02,699 --> 00:08:05,279 parent, and, you know, as a mother of two daughters. But 118 00:08:05,399 --> 00:08:08,759 what did I want to achieve for myself? And I started to look at 119 00:08:08,759 --> 00:08:12,059 where I was living and where else I could live and and I took 120 00:08:12,059 --> 00:08:15,419 the opportunity to move out of London and put myself somewhere 121 00:08:15,419 --> 00:08:18,539 else, because I was teaching violin online, and I could do 122 00:08:18,539 --> 00:08:22,819 that anywhere. And I'd ended up in London partly because of my 123 00:08:22,819 --> 00:08:25,399 daughters and their education, because, you know, you can't 124 00:08:25,399 --> 00:08:29,539 move children once they get to a certain age. They hate you 125 00:08:29,539 --> 00:08:33,499 forever. And I'm from Yorkshire, so I'd ended up in London, like, 126 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:37,939 a massive amount of my life, you know, over half my life, yeah, 127 00:08:37,939 --> 00:08:41,439 and so I looked at other places, and I was drawn to I'd always 128 00:08:41,439 --> 00:08:44,499 wanted to live by the sea, and the sea up in Yorkshire is 129 00:08:44,499 --> 00:08:47,619 beautiful, but it's cold, so I still had that London 130 00:08:47,619 --> 00:08:50,319 connection. I mean,

it's amazing, and getting to London 131 00:08:50,319 --> 00:08:53,919 in like 90 minutes from here, so I still had the best of both 132 00:08:53,919 --> 00:08:57,939 worlds. I had London and I could live by the sea. And I didn't 133 00:08:57,939 --> 00:09:01,079 realize when I moved to Margate what an art scene was going to 134 00:09:01,079 --> 00:09:04,379 grow. I mean, you're forever, you know, bumping into art and 135 00:09:04,379 --> 00:09:07,799 creativity, not just in Margate, in the whole of Thanet, you 136 00:09:07,799 --> 00:09:11,939 know, Ramsgate is a fantastic town, and Folkestone as well. 137 00:09:11,939 --> 00:09:16,019 Folkstone's got so much going on. So we're south, you know, 138 00:09:16,019 --> 00:09:20,959 surrounded by all this bubbling stuff happening in music and 139 00:09:21,019 --> 00:09:27,739 arts and theater. Yeah, it's great. And the LGBTQ plus 140 00:09:27,739 --> 00:09:32,659 community here in Thanet is really thriving and injecting so 141 00:09:32,659 --> 00:09:36,499 much creativity into where we live. Yeah, it's a great place 142 00:09:36,499 --> 00:09:39,499 to be, you know, yeah, and I don't know about the other 143 00:09:39,499 --> 00:09:42,699 seaside towns, I imagine that there's things happening there 144 00:09:42,699 --> 00:09:45,879 too, you know, especially like places like Blackpool and 145 00:09:45,879 --> 00:09:49,359 Morecambe getting the New Eden. And so there's all these things 146 00:09:49,359 --> 00:09:52,779 that are happening in our seaside towns. But seaside towns 147 00:09:52,779 --> 00:09:55,479 are just they're just great places, aren't they? They're so 148 00:09:55,479 --> 00:09:59,559 iconic. And yeah, with my tiles that I make myself, I love 149 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,059 seeing landmarks that we become really affectionate 150 00:10:03,059 --> 00:10:06,599 towards and that become really important. And I love those sort 151 00:10:06,599 --> 00:10:10,499 of peculiar things that we attach ourselves to. And of 152 00:10:10,499 --> 00:10:13,379 course, it seems to be full of those. Yeah, 153 00:10:13,380 --> 00:10:17,820 exactly because Margate and the Isle of Thanet, as it is known, 154 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:22,820 it's packed with heritage. Unfortunately, you know, there's 155 00:10:22,820 --> 00:10:26,900 been a significant need for regeneration over several 156 00:10:26,900 --> 00:10:31,040 decades, but nevertheless, it's packed with heritage. I mean, 157 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:35,540 Margate was a jewel in the crown for Victorians. It was high 158 00:10:35,540 --> 00:10:41,060 status holiday making, certainly as a child throughout the 70s, 159 00:10:41,660 --> 00:10:45,460 you know, our summer holidays couldn't have been any better, 160 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:49,780 just for living in Margate or nearby. And also in terms of 161 00:10:49,780 --> 00:10:54,460 heritage and world class artists, Ramsgate was home to 162 00:10:54,460 --> 00:10:58,900 Vincent van Gogh for a very short time, you know. So there's 163 00:10:58,900 --> 00:11:02,580 such significant history there, and it seems to me that Margate 164 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:06,900 helped unlock meaning for you. In your mind, you know what you 165 00:11:06,900 --> 00:11:11,040 wanted to do in meaningful ways. And perhaps that's a good point 166 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,820 to talk about, the tiles of Happiness Project. Perhaps you'd 167 00:11:14,820 --> 00:11:18,420 like to illustrate for the listeners how the idea came 168 00:11:18,420 --> 00:11:22,040 about and what's taking place, what your ambition is for the 169 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:23,060 project I 170 00:11:23,060 --> 00:11:25,820 love that. You call it Tiles of Happiness. I'm happy with that. 171 00:11:26,060 --> 00:11:28,700 It's actually Tiles of Joy, okay,I've read 172 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:35,000 both, but both are such winning titles. This is great. 173 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,480 We'll go with that as well. Tiles of Joy was, Well, what 174 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:42,280 happened was the the Mermaid Army was part of the Power of 175 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:46,180 Women Fringe Festival. Power of Women is this great festival in 176 00:11:46,180 --> 00:11:49,000 Thanet, the Mermaid Army was part of the fringe. And so that was 177 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:53,680 2022, and then the year later, they did an open call out for an 178 00:11:53,680 --> 00:11:57,880 ambitious community arts project. So along they trundled to the 179 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,500 meeting, as you do, and said, Oh, I've got an idea, what about 180 00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:04,860 making a big collage, sort of like patchwork quilt, if you 181 00:12:04,860 --> 00:12:08,040 like, of ceramic tiles to celebrate women. Because the 182 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:15,120 actual POWs theme that year in 2023 was joy. So we did this 183 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,900 workshop, and it was to celebrate women, and it was at 184 00:12:18,900 --> 00:12:21,440 Margate caves, the amazing Margate caves. 185 00:12:21,680 --> 00:12:24,800 Incredible even more history. Yeah, I couldn't 186 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:25,640 believe it. I 187 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,820 really panicked that people weren't going to come, and my 188 00:12:28,820 --> 00:12:32,840 friends still teased me about it today, because 86 people turned 189 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:37,040 up to make tiles, and it was mad, but the cave staff were 190 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,300 incredible. They just kept letting people come in, and we 191 00:12:40,300 --> 00:12:44,260 made all these tiles. But what was even more amazing was it 192 00:12:44,260 --> 00:12:48,160 wasn't just women that came to make tiles to celebrate women. 193 00:12:48,580 --> 00:12:53,920 It was dads and it was partners and it was sons and brothers, 194 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,140 and it was amazing. And then that's 195 00:12:56,140 --> 00:12:59,200 so significant, isn't it? Yes away. 196 00:12:59,260 --> 00:13:02,280 You know, I

had to look at the fact that it didn't need to be a 197 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:06,480 gendered project. It could just be Tiles of Joy. 198 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:12,120 And so it started there, and it just it just got bigger 199 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,360 and bigger and bigger. And I just really felt like I was just 200 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,300 sort of steering the project as best as I could. I didn't have 201 00:13:18,300 --> 00:13:21,500 any funding other than little bits of funding here and there, 202 00:13:21,500 --> 00:13:25,460 and I was paying for it by selling my own tiles. So when I 203 00:13:25,460 --> 00:13:29,060 made my own tiles, I was offsetting the costs by putting 204 00:13:29,060 --> 00:13:33,740 my tiles that I was selling in with the community art tiles. So 205 00:13:33,740 --> 00:13:37,280 that's how I was making it work. Wow. And as it got like 1000 206 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:42,640 tiles, I couldn't really sustain that, but also I couldn't pay I 207 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:46,360 had to go at tiling myself, and wasn't very good. It's actually 208 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,840 harder than you think, because I had to create these 209 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:53,140 installations. The idea was always to have a constellation 210 00:13:53,140 --> 00:13:58,540 of tiles, and it had temporary displays in in amazing places. 211 00:13:58,540 --> 00:14:03,120 So 161 Northdown Road, there's an amazing little gallery there. 212 00:14:03,300 --> 00:14:07,440 That's where the first display of the tiles was, and then 213 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,580 Margate caves did a display, and it went from two boards to four 214 00:14:11,580 --> 00:14:16,080 boards to six boards, and each board had 96 tiles on them. We 215 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:20,280 were doing workshops in the street in Cliftonville, and 216 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,660 people would just come and make tiles. It was great. It was 217 00:14:23,660 --> 00:14:24,560 amazing. It was mad. 218 00:14:24,740 --> 00:14:29,480 You've really evidenced an appetite, a willingness and a 219 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,720 need, haven't you, that people want to be able to 220 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:37,880 participate and also respond to something positive. I think it's 221 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:42,400 incredibly significant that you could highlight, you know, men, 222 00:14:42,460 --> 00:14:46,540 boys, granddads, dads, sons all wanted to join in. Because, 223 00:14:46,780 --> 00:14:52,420 unfortunately, there is an issue where men, and particularly 224 00:14:52,420 --> 00:14:57,220 regarding mental health, there can be such an exclusion from 225 00:14:57,220 --> 00:15:01,920 where they feel they can participate. Or open up or do 226 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:06,300 those healthy things that just help with social activities and 227 00:15:06,300 --> 00:15:08,580 connection. Yeah, I 228 00:15:08,580 --> 00:15:12,900 was very honored that one of the workshops that we did, a man 229 00:15:12,900 --> 00:15:17,400 actually took the time to come to me quietly and say how much 230 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,960 it meant to him because he was trying to recover from a drink 231 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:26,960 problem he'd lost, in his words, his family and his job, and he 232 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,320 found it really difficult finding places to socialize or 233 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,320 meet other people, and being able to come to one of those 234 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:37,160 workshops was a stepping stone for him, and he went on to 235 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:41,980 actually find a night school class to do pottery, to meet 236 00:15:41,980 --> 00:15:45,760 other people. He said how difficult it was. His background 237 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,600 had been in laboring and things, but also in rugby. So all his 238 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:54,280 activities seemed to be alcohol linked socially. So he found it 239 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,220 very, very difficult to meet people in a different setting. 240 00:15:57,220 --> 00:16:00,420 And he said, as a man, it was particularly difficult as well. 241 00:16:00,420 --> 00:16:04,620 So this was a real stepping stone, and I felt so honored to 242 00:16:04,620 --> 00:16:07,380 have been part of that, you know, and for him to take the 243 00:16:07,380 --> 00:16:09,540 time to tell me as well. Yeah, 244 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,960 which was brave of him, because it's opening up emotionally and 245 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:13,620 personally, 246 00:16:14,220 --> 00:16:17,760 there's been a few instances like that where, you know, we've 247 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,440 done drop in workshops in places like Dreamland, and dads 248 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:23,900 will sort of drop their kids off, and they'll go, Oh no, it's 249 00:16:23,900 --> 00:16:26,780 not, not my kind of thing. Their mum will do it with them. And 250 00:16:26,780 --> 00:16:29,420 then the children look at their dad and go, Oh, come on, dad. 251 00:16:30,500 --> 00:16:33,740 And, you know, with a little bit of encouragement, you know, dads 252 00:16:33,740 --> 00:16:35,960 go on to do some of the best tiles. 253 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,740 Yeah, I mean, these are gold dust stories, particularly the 254 00:16:39,740 --> 00:16:44,980 example of the man brave enough to open up about his recovery 255 00:16:44,980 --> 00:16:49,960 from alcoholism and still finding the courage to take part 256 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:54,400 in new things. Because actually, would you agree, in general, 257 00:16:54,460 --> 00:16:59,200 that it does sometimes take courage for somebody to take 258 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,820 part in something new. So a community arts workshop, let's 259 00:17:02,820 --> 00:17:06,780 make tiles from the outside, that just seems very fun. And 260 00:17:06,780 --> 00:17:11,520 why not? But actually, that can be a huge step to take for 261 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:17,400 somebody, because it's not about art in terms of, I must

be 262 00:17:17,460 --> 00:17:21,080 artistic, I must be especially talented. It's really what 263 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,380 you're highlighting, isn't it? It's about the joy, the fun and 264 00:17:24,380 --> 00:17:25,880 the connectivity. Yeah. 265 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,720 There's two things there to take from that. 266 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,420 I think, you know, getting people over a threshold of a 267 00:17:32,420 --> 00:17:36,980 workshop is one of the hardest things. You know, to sign up is 268 00:17:36,980 --> 00:17:41,260 difficult enough, and then to actually get into somewhere new 269 00:17:41,260 --> 00:17:45,040 and be put into that position. And, you know, social anxiety. 270 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,340 Lots of people struggle with social anxiety, and I know I 271 00:17:48,340 --> 00:17:51,460 experienced it after the pandemic. I remember walking 272 00:17:51,460 --> 00:17:54,040 down more getting thinking, Oh, I'm not sure I want the pandemic 273 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,580 to really end. You know, I quite like not having to go out, you 274 00:17:57,580 --> 00:18:00,960 know, quite like being a bit inclusive. So I think that's 275 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,140 definitely something that's still a hangover for a lot 276 00:18:04,140 --> 00:18:08,640 of people. And I think another thing that has been said to me 277 00:18:08,820 --> 00:18:13,980 more than once through this project is how rarely we are 278 00:18:13,980 --> 00:18:18,720 asked what makes us happy or what brings us joy, and more 279 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,160 rarely are we given the opportunity to express it in any 280 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:27,920 way. And so it's been really quite something to give people 281 00:18:28,700 --> 00:18:32,780 200 grams of clay and get them to turn it into a tile and just 282 00:18:32,780 --> 00:18:35,180 say, Look, you just have to put on there whatever makes you 283 00:18:35,180 --> 00:18:38,000 happy or brings you joy. No one can tell you it's wrong, even if 284 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,780 it's just playing with the clay and that's made you happy. 285 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:45,640 That's actually enough. So it's been a really accessible project 286 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:47,800 for people. We've also encouraged people to do 287 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,920 something that they might not have done normally. So we got 288 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:55,840 invited to Seasalter yesterday, to the Christian Center there to 289 00:18:55,900 --> 00:19:01,380 they had a special gathering of churches, and I'm not quite sure 290 00:19:01,380 --> 00:19:06,240 what I signed myself and my my helpers up to my assistants up 291 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:10,860 to we turned up three of us yesterday, and we made 100 tiles 292 00:19:10,860 --> 00:19:16,980 in two hours with the most incredible group of people that 293 00:19:16,980 --> 00:19:20,660 the generosity of their spirit and their creativity and the 294 00:19:20,660 --> 00:19:24,320 stories they shared with us was something else. But even in that 295 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:26,900 environment where you've got this wonderful community, this 296 00:19:26,900 --> 00:19:31,400 religious community of people supporting each other, there was 297 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,120 people who were reluctant and but it didn't take much. It 298 00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:37,640 didn't take much to go. Oh, just, you know, give it a go. It 299 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:40,840 doesn't matter if it doesn't work, and sure enough, they will 300 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:45,160 do it, you know, even if they just write on a tile piece that 301 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:49,960 feels some joy. And I think just giving having the opportunity is 302 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:51,100 so rare. 303 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:55,600 Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it's a terrible, terrible deprivation. 304 00:19:55,600 --> 00:20:00,780 In fact, spaces that help communities connect to help 305 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:05,400 social cohesion, to help mental health, and like you say, 306 00:20:05,580 --> 00:20:10,980 simply, help happiness and joy. I think that statement you made 307 00:20:10,980 --> 00:20:15,180 is particularly powerful that people are rarely asked what 308 00:20:15,180 --> 00:20:19,380 makes them happy, and even more, rarely are they asked to 309 00:20:19,380 --> 00:20:23,480 document it. It's something we're almost forgetting to think 310 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:28,700 about or to assert. I wondered, Jane, what kind of statements of 311 00:20:28,700 --> 00:20:32,900 joy are you seeing appear on these tiles? I imagine there's 312 00:20:32,900 --> 00:20:34,820 such a range. We do 313 00:20:34,820 --> 00:20:35,840 have repeats. 314 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,900 I actually jokingly said, right, that's no more rainbows. No more 315 00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:45,940 rainbows. We have lots of sunsets. We have lots of birds. 316 00:20:46,300 --> 00:20:49,420 Obviously, we live near the sea, so the sea makes people happy. 317 00:20:49,660 --> 00:20:51,820 But then we have, like, mountains, and we have 318 00:20:51,820 --> 00:20:55,180 countries. My favorite ones are always when somebody does their 319 00:20:55,180 --> 00:20:59,980 mum, it's just amazing. My mum makes me happy. Family appears a 320 00:20:59,980 --> 00:21:06,660 lot. Bicycles at Christmas. Obviously, Santa was big. The 321 00:21:06,660 --> 00:21:10,260 sun storms now storms years ago, when we've had a couple of 322 00:21:10,260 --> 00:21:13,860 storms, and I like a storm, we did two workshops at Dreamland, 323 00:21:13,860 --> 00:21:16,560 which were Dreamland themes. So they were beautiful because they 324 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,180 were lots of memories, and yeah, and romance, lots of love 325 00:21:20,180 --> 00:21:24,380 hearts. Yeah, love makes people really happy. So, yeah, 326 00:21:24,380 --> 00:21:27,380 occasionally we get the odd one that no one's done before. We've 327 00:21:27,380 --> 00:21:29,900 had two

dragons, which is quite interesting, but we've had 328 00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:35,900 snakes, which is cool, skateboarding, football. We've 329 00:21:35,900 --> 00:21:39,920 got a few teams in there that bring people joy. No one's done 330 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,880 Margate FC yet, which is a bit disappointing. 331 00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:46,720 Well, I think being a kid from Margate, I would surely have to 332 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,620 come up with a mod or a Vespa, because for listeners who aren't 333 00:21:50,620 --> 00:21:54,640 familiar with this iconic seaside town, bank holiday 334 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:59,680 Mondays could not have been more distinct, because every mod in 335 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,420 the world would descend on Margate or Ramsgate or Broadstairs 336 00:22:03,420 --> 00:22:08,040 and it's one of my most fond and nostalgic childhood 337 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:12,780 memories. Yeah, it's creating a lovely story, isn't it? It's a 338 00:22:12,780 --> 00:22:16,380 beautiful story. The trail is a story as well as statements of 339 00:22:16,380 --> 00:22:18,720 what makes people happy. Yeah. I 340 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:23,180 mean, we had a lady yesterday who was visibly impaired, and 341 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,540 she's like, I think I can't do this. And I have actually been 342 00:22:26,540 --> 00:22:29,720 working with Kent Association for the Blind to adapt this 343 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:34,640 project. And she I was like, No, you'll be fine. You'll be fine. 344 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,600 Just just make marks. Clay loves you making marks. And she 345 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,080 started off really tentative, and but about the end she'd made 346 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,680 this beautiful tile, that it's got to be so beautiful to feel. 347 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,900 And so I think that's another thing, you know, just sort of 348 00:22:46,900 --> 00:22:51,580 the other senses. I've had a lovely message from Mencap. 349 00:22:51,580 --> 00:22:55,060 There's a group of adults who walk past one of the tile 350 00:22:55,060 --> 00:22:58,600 installations in Margate, and they always stop to feel the 351 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:03,660 tiles. How amazing is that? Yeah? And inclusive the tiles, 352 00:23:04,020 --> 00:23:07,500 yeah, and discuss them, and they see a different tile every day. 353 00:23:07,860 --> 00:23:10,260 Yeah, that's just really lovely. Yeah, 354 00:23:10,260 --> 00:23:13,380 it's wonderful. And, and of course, it's so inclusive, and 355 00:23:13,380 --> 00:23:16,980 so much to your credit, including your own generosity, 356 00:23:16,980 --> 00:23:20,780 to have found a way to personally fund this project at 357 00:23:20,780 --> 00:23:25,280 the same time whilst pursuing funding. And obviously a big 358 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:30,320 shout out to benefactors everywhere. Jane, I'm interested 359 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:35,060 now that you live in Margate, you've got this fabulous project 360 00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:41,080 underway, you're obviously going to be very aware of Margate as a 361 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:46,180 significant arts destination now in the UK. In fact, the founder 362 00:23:46,180 --> 00:23:50,380 of Freeze Art Fair, he's now the new chair of Turner Contemporary 363 00:23:50,860 --> 00:23:55,600 stated, Margate is now one of the UK's most important art 364 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,740 destinations. What's your experience of that balance 365 00:23:59,740 --> 00:24:07,380 between significance as an art destination and regeneration and 366 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:12,180 connecting with local people and not just an international 367 00:24:12,180 --> 00:24:13,680 visitor footprint. 368 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:19,980 Oh, gosh. Well, I do believe that arts do regenerate areas in 369 00:24:19,980 --> 00:24:24,080 a positive way. I'm from Bradford. So this year, Bradford 370 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:31,400 is the Cultural City 2025 and when a city or a town embraces 371 00:24:31,460 --> 00:24:37,100 its creative population, and it has a knock on effect, it brings 372 00:24:37,100 --> 00:24:41,740 other people to the towns. I think every town, you know, 373 00:24:41,740 --> 00:24:45,040 every school should be an art school, and every town should 374 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:49,000 have a gallery. It's just really important to 375 00:24:50,500 --> 00:24:53,440 offer that creativity, and I think 376 00:24:54,700 --> 00:24:58,120 it's up to artists and creatives, and it's not just 377 00:24:58,120 --> 00:25:01,440 art, it's not just visual art, it's. Dance, and it's theater 378 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,800 and it's sport as well, all these things that bring people 379 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:10,020 together, because it's not just one size fits all. You know that 380 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:15,960 we have to have a variety of ideas and things going on in all 381 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,860 our towns and all our cities. They're quite soulless. They've 382 00:25:19,860 --> 00:25:23,900 become car parks. A lot of our towns and cities, people quite 383 00:25:23,900 --> 00:25:27,080 often go from one car park to another. I'm sort of wary of 384 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,140 regeneration in some ways, because it can actually exclude 385 00:25:30,140 --> 00:25:33,740 people as well. It can make towns and cities too expensive 386 00:25:33,740 --> 00:25:36,800 to live in, and there, therefore the people who were involved in 387 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,860 regenerating things can't afford to live there sometimes and have 388 00:25:39,860 --> 00:25:43,480 to move so it's, it's quite a complicated one for me to 389 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,200 answer, because there's, there's pros and cons to regeneration. I 390 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,100 think regeneration is often seen now as quite a negative thing, 391 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:56,320 but it's how we manage that. It's how we put life back into 392 00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:00,360 our towns

and cities. Because I think before we really relied on 393 00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:03,660 high streets and retail. You know, we need to, we need to 394 00:26:03,660 --> 00:26:08,220 look at how we can reuse our high streets and repopulate them 395 00:26:08,820 --> 00:26:12,480 in our towns, and make sure that people can afford to still live 396 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,660 in those towns that become popular, in those cities that 397 00:26:15,660 --> 00:26:18,540 become popular, and if I couldn't afford to go buy 398 00:26:18,540 --> 00:26:22,160 somewhere in Bradford, yeah, you know, after it being City or 399 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,760 Culture, there's something amiss there, if that happens, yeah, 400 00:26:25,820 --> 00:26:29,180 that's right. And it is. This is a significant issue, isn't it, 401 00:26:29,180 --> 00:26:33,020 in terms of how these plans are rolled out. And of course, the 402 00:26:33,020 --> 00:26:36,920 Turner Contemporary Art Gallery in Margate is of huge 403 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:43,600 significance. Was a major, major addition to the town and as a 404 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:48,040 catalyst for the regeneration of the town, the Turner 405 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,280 Contemporary Art Gallery has also been supportive of your 406 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,820 work. Could you tell us about the pop up you had with the 407 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:56,140 Mermaid Army? 408 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:00,180 Yeah, it was amazing. It was an amazing opportunity that 409 00:27:00,180 --> 00:27:03,960 happened through a wonderful woman who works for Kent 410 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:09,000 Association for the Blind, Mandy Bodemeaid. She actually 411 00:27:09,060 --> 00:27:12,960 said she came to see the Mermaid Army when it was exhibited at 412 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,080 Lidos Stores as part of the Power Thanet Fringe Festival. 413 00:27:16,620 --> 00:27:18,960 And she came, and she was like, this should have been in the 414 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,980 Turner Open. And I was like, Well, I wasn't actually living here, 415 00:27:21,980 --> 00:27:25,160 but she encouraged me to get in touch with Turner. I did it, 416 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:30,440 and it was amazing. They offered me the space in the retail 417 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:36,080 section, so right by the doors to set up the Mermaid Army and 418 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,560 to be there for 10 days talking to the public. I was exhausted 419 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,960 after every day, and I have such a such a respect for the people 420 00:27:44,020 --> 00:27:47,380 who work on the ground at Turner and in the shop. They are 421 00:27:47,380 --> 00:27:52,540 incredible. It is exhausting. Yeah, yeah. People really do 422 00:27:52,540 --> 00:27:55,360 want to engage and talk. And what an honor that people do 423 00:27:55,360 --> 00:27:59,860 want to do that. So yeah, the Mermaid Army was in Turner 424 00:27:59,860 --> 00:28:07,620 Contemporary for two weeks in November 2022 I think

it already 425 00:28:07,860 --> 00:28:12,300 been to Bridlington as part of the Art Waves Festival, and it 426 00:28:12,300 --> 00:28:16,920 been to Western Super Mare, and then it ended up in Turner in 427 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,900 the November. And it's just been amazing. It was amazing. Still 428 00:28:20,900 --> 00:28:25,280 amazing to me, that people have really connected with this 429 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,700 project. Want to talk about it. 430 00:28:28,700 --> 00:28:32,480 Do you think people are responding to the importance of 431 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:36,080 memory sharing? Memory sharing achievements, offering 432 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:37,100 inspiration. There's 433 00:28:37,100 --> 00:28:40,900 a number of themes. I think that the main, the main feedback I 434 00:28:40,900 --> 00:28:44,980 got from men and women and non binary. So it's a very gender 435 00:28:44,980 --> 00:28:47,980 inclusive project, and I think that's really important. But the 436 00:28:47,980 --> 00:28:55,840 main feedback I got from people was that older people are very 437 00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:02,400 rarely represented in art in such a positive way and and such 438 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:07,560 an active way, I did sketches using photographs and videos 439 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:12,720 that people sent me or or that they'd taken themselves. And I 440 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,960 did that deliberately, because people were showing me how they 441 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:20,540 wanted to be seen. So by using people's photographs and 442 00:29:20,540 --> 00:29:24,140 sometimes videos and making collages and then making my 443 00:29:24,140 --> 00:29:29,240 sketches. From that, I was using how people wanted to be seen, 444 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,020 and I think that made a difference. It wasn't just how I 445 00:29:33,020 --> 00:29:37,580 saw them, it's how they saw themselves. And people were 446 00:29:37,580 --> 00:29:40,840 people were incredibly generous. They'd send me all sorts of 447 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:45,820 photographs, naked photographs, sometimes, and photographs very, 448 00:29:45,820 --> 00:29:48,880 you know, very generous, honest photographs in swimsuits. 449 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,520 Yeah, which is quite courageous, isn't it? When you would 450 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,060 normally, or quite often, you would feel very exposed, yeah. 451 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,540 So it was, yeah, it was a real honor. So the Mermaid Army was 452 00:29:58,540 --> 00:30:02,760 made up of men and women and non binary and drag queens 453 00:30:02,820 --> 00:30:06,060 of how they wanted to be seen. And that was that was quite 454 00:30:06,060 --> 00:30:09,540 something. And I think that really came across. So that was 455 00:30:09,540 --> 00:30:13,680 something that resonated with people. I think men, comments 456 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,460 that I got from men were really interesting, because alongside 457 00:30:17,460 --> 00:30:21,800 the Mermaid Army, I did a series of plaques using my 458 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:26,180 sketches where I invited people to comment, to make comments 459 00:30:26,660 --> 00:30:30,860 about things that had been said about their bodies, because the 460 00:30:30,860 --> 00:30:33,980 Mermaid Army started from somebody being called Chunky 461 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:38,360 when they were training to swim the channel. So a friend of 462 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,640 mine, who was in Felixstowe, somebody came up to her and 463 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,340 said, Oh, you you don't look like somebody who'd swim the 464 00:30:45,340 --> 00:30:49,840 channel. You're quite chunky. And she wrote about this, and I 465 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,780 was like, What a nerve. And I didn't really know how to 466 00:30:52,780 --> 00:30:56,260 respond other than to sculpt her. So I did. I sculpted her, 467 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,260 and that's how it kind of started, and then I ended up 468 00:30:59,260 --> 00:31:03,840 sculpting other swimmers, and I had these plaques. Every time I 469 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,380 exhibited the Mermaid Army, I had these plaques and invited 470 00:31:07,380 --> 00:31:09,480 people to write and share comments that have been made 471 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:14,040 about their bodies. And, you know, men were really, really 472 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,580 interested in when they sort of discussed the mermaid army with 473 00:31:17,580 --> 00:31:20,420 me, because they quite often said, you know, it's not, it's 474 00:31:20,420 --> 00:31:23,540 not often us that make these negative comments. Quite often. 475 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,600 You know, women are often the worse about commenting on other 476 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:31,640 women or other people's bodies, and that was a hard one to take 477 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,440 but, you know. But 478 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,440 women are pressurized all the time, aren't they? There are 479 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,720 these unobtainable images the digital world has created 480 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:45,040 completely false expectations of what we could or apparently 481 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:51,640 should look like, and there is very much a need for women to 482 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:57,640 feel more empowered to be who they are and to set their own 483 00:31:57,700 --> 00:31:59,200 identity. Yeah, well, 484 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,860 somebody, somebody, somebody made a really good comment, 485 00:32:01,860 --> 00:32:04,860 which was something that really stuck with me. We've all got a 486 00:32:04,860 --> 00:32:09,420 bit of body dysmorphia, and where does that come from? We're 487 00:32:09,420 --> 00:32:12,420 not born with that. So these are all learned behaviors. So I 488 00:32:12,420 --> 00:32:17,460 think what the Mermaid Army did was give people an opportunity to 489 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,740 talk about that and engage about that in a way that perhaps, you 490

00:32:21,740 --> 00:32:25,700 know, I think because all my work as a narrative behind it, 491 00:32:25,940 --> 00:32:29,300 that I that people can find for themselves, and they've all got 492 00:32:29,300 --> 00:32:31,700 their own narratives and their own stories and their own 493 00:32:31,700 --> 00:32:34,700 memories and their own feelings and emotions that they then can 494 00:32:35,060 --> 00:32:37,460 express. I think it allows that to happen. 495 00:32:37,940 --> 00:32:43,480 I wondered, actually, if you would like to expand a little on 496 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:49,000 Gill Castle, because creating one of your mermaid sculptures, 497 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:54,100 and in relation to Gill being the first person ever to swim 498 00:32:54,100 --> 00:32:59,020 the channel with a stoma, and raising significant awareness of 499 00:32:59,020 --> 00:33:03,600 childbirth injuries, what that impact was like for her, that 500 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:08,820 you also wanted to support that achievement in a very visible 501 00:33:08,820 --> 00:33:09,780 way. Yeah, 502 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:15,180 oh, Gill's amazing. I'd put the sculptures on Instagram. I can't 503 00:33:15,180 --> 00:33:18,060 remember who it was now, if this person's listening, please get 504 00:33:18,060 --> 00:33:22,280 back in touch with me, because I I'd love to thank them, but they 505 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,940 sent me a message. You must get in touch with Gill Castle. I 506 00:33:25,940 --> 00:33:29,060 didn't know who Gill Castle was, so I did. I got in touch with 507 00:33:29,060 --> 00:33:31,820 her, and I explained to her what I was doing, and would she? 508 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:36,200 Would she let me sculpt her? And she goes, yeah. So she sent me 509 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:40,120 all these pictures, and we we like quite kindred spirits, as 510 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,240 it turns out, and we got, you know, we were sharing messages. 511 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,120 I've never met this woman, you know, we're both northerners, 512 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,940 but she had, she'd actually been a policeman in Bradford, so we 513 00:33:48,940 --> 00:33:51,700 had all this shared history as well. So it was just incredible. 514 00:33:51,700 --> 00:33:54,400 So we were, we were sharing all this information, and I did this 515 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,300 sculpture of her. And one of the most amazing things was all the 516 00:33:58,300 --> 00:34:02,040 messages we shared. When it came to me sculpting the stoma bag, 517 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,100 because I'd never seen a stoma bag in my life, and so I didn't 518 00:34:05,100 --> 00:34:07,560 know quite what I was doing and where it should go. And we had 519 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,760 all these amazing conversations. And then she came, when she was 520 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,940 training, she came down, and she stayed with us here. She came 521 00:34:14,940 --> 00:34:18,900 and stayed with me here. And when she turned up at my door, I 522 00:34:18,900 --> 00:34:22,400 was like, Oh, my God, you're smaller than me. I'm only five 523 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,220 three, then she was smaller than me. And I don't know why, I'd 524 00:34:25,220 --> 00:34:28,400 expected this huge, gigantic woman, 525 00:34:28,940 --> 00:34:32,660 like, really, and and to take on the channel. Perhaps you do 526 00:34:32,660 --> 00:34:36,740 imagine someone, yeah, you know, with huge strength. Yeah, 527 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,560 and I'd made her one of the tallest sculptures in the 528 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,460 Mermaid Army, and she's actually probably the shortest person, 529 00:34:43,720 --> 00:34:48,280 fabulous. So it was because the all the sculptures are actually 530 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,400 about 40 centimeters, the original Mermaid Army, not the 531 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,280 Summer Swimmers. That's another selection of swimmers. But 532 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,160 they're all about 40 centimeters. They're all they're 533 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,300 all the same sort of size, just looking at different 534 00:35:00,300 --> 00:35:03,900 shapes, because all body shapes are beautiful. Oh, my goodness, 535 00:35:03,900 --> 00:35:07,920 we did laugh. And so it was amazing, because from the 536 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:12,540 Mermaid Army, the merchandise that I made, I was asked to make 537 00:35:12,540 --> 00:35:16,320 posters or postcards. Well, it was suggested, and I thought, 538 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,560 Oh, I don't want to make posters or postcard. So I use in my 539 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:26,480 sketches. I made tiles, and I made a tile of her, which we 540 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:31,100 sold. And, yeah, that went towards raising awareness and 541 00:35:31,100 --> 00:35:36,020 raising some funds as well, towards the work that she does, 542 00:35:36,020 --> 00:35:38,840 the amazing work she does, helping women in Kenya and the 543 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:39,440 UK. 544 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,300 Yeah, it's fantastic. It's a lovely union, isn't it? 545 00:35:43,780 --> 00:35:49,420 Oh, amazing, yeah, supportive. I actually saw her off on her 546 00:35:49,420 --> 00:35:54,340 swim. We actually did the video of her leaving. Oh, wow. It was 547 00:35:54,460 --> 00:35:59,380 the most amazing thing. Yeah, I didn't want you to go. I was 548 00:35:59,380 --> 00:36:00,660 kind of like you don't have to go! 549 00:36:03,660 --> 00:36:07,860 Yes a big, a big shout out to Gill, because it's tremendous 550 00:36:07,860 --> 00:36:11,760 courage, and it's very, very purposeful what she's doing in 551 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:16,020 her own right. And I love the union between you both how art 552 00:36:16,260 --> 00:36:20,540 is helping to add visibility to such important and and 553 00:36:20,540 --> 00:36:24,320 courageous work. It's a lovely union. And of course, you 554 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:29,000 continue to show solidarity and support. And I think, 555

00:36:29,180 --> 00:36:34,220 currently with your mermaid tour, you're also supporting the 556 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,360 campaign. This Ends Now. Would you like to share something on 557 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:39,260 that? All these 558 00:36:39,260 --> 00:36:42,160 things tend to happen by accident, you know? So my friend 559 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:47,140 Sam, who's amazing on Instagram, she sent me a link. She said, 560 00:36:47,140 --> 00:36:50,020 Oh, you've got to do this, Jane, you've got to apply for this. 561 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:55,300 And it's the campaign This Ends Now, which I urge people to look 562 00:36:55,300 --> 00:36:58,480 at on Instagram. It's an extraordinary campaign. And 563 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,520 linked to that was an exhibition called Words Matter in Newport 564 00:37:02,580 --> 00:37:10,140 in Wales. So I I submitted the plaques from the Mermaid Army as 565 00:37:10,140 --> 00:37:15,300 something that might be nice for the exhibition, because all the 566 00:37:15,300 --> 00:37:17,880 words that had been written on the plaques, and also I had 567 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,860 plaques that still needed to be to be written on, didn't really 568 00:37:21,860 --> 00:37:24,320 think too much of it. Sent the submission in, and they were 569 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,860 like, Oh, that would be great. Yeah, please. So I posted them 570 00:37:27,860 --> 00:37:32,600 to Newport. This was probably about a year ago, I think yes, 571 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,600 it would have been last International Women's Day, and 572 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:41,200 it was so well received that it has gone on to do a tour of 573 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:46,000 police stations working with the police as to how crimes are 574 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:51,340 reported in the press and how words are used by the police can 575 00:37:51,340 --> 00:37:55,120 make a difference. Incredible, incredible to be part of this, I 576 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:59,080 told myself, and then I got an email last night that there's 577 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,760 actually going to be an exhibition in Pontypridd museum 578 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:09,120 from February 25 to April the 4th of the group exhibition 579 00:38:09,180 --> 00:38:15,420 of all the pieces of work that deal with how women are reported 580 00:38:15,420 --> 00:38:18,420 and how words are used with regards women and violence 581 00:38:18,420 --> 00:38:22,760 towards women in an exhibition. And I'm just like, blown away 582 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,120 that, yeah, that was a great achievement. Yeah, it's a great 583 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:26,960 achievement. 584 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:32,420 Is still going and making a difference, and that the plaques 585 00:38:32,420 --> 00:38:36,680 are actually part of that. Yes, just it's mind blowing. So, yes, 586 00:38:36,740 --> 00:38:40,180 it's amazing, because I think the premise behind my work has 587 00:38:40,180 --> 00:38:45,400 never been to actually

sell work or make money out of my work. 588 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,120 I've been very fortunate that I have sold a lot of tiles that 589 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,660 have helped do projects like this and the community art 590 00:38:52,660 --> 00:38:55,960 project, but it was never what was behind it. It's always been 591 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,740 connections with other people. I've always had a bit of my own 592 00:38:59,740 --> 00:39:02,820 sort of mantra that with creativity, one thing leads to 593 00:39:02,820 --> 00:39:08,100 another if you allow it. And so that's kind of how it how it 594 00:39:08,100 --> 00:39:09,060 goes, Really, 595 00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:12,720 yeah, yeah. And I think that's really interesting, just to 596 00:39:12,720 --> 00:39:17,640 touch briefly, if you like, on the sewing resistance. Because 597 00:39:17,940 --> 00:39:22,940 what interested me about that was how you came to be part of 598 00:39:22,940 --> 00:39:29,360 the sewing resistance. But also I saw you refer to the example 599 00:39:29,420 --> 00:39:35,720 of how quilting and patchworking and textiles have, of course, 600 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:40,040 been a very significant form of voice for women, and 601 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:45,280 particularly an example from Chilean women and how they used 602 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,720 it to create messages. And this was during Pinochet's very cool 603 00:39:49,720 --> 00:39:54,340 dictatorship, which was between '73 and 1990 I wondered if you 604 00:39:54,340 --> 00:39:59,080 would just like to touch on that, because I love how what 605 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:03,840 you can do currently can have such a long history that 606 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,780 continues to connect with women? Yeah, 607 00:40:06,780 --> 00:40:11,280 when I found those Chilean, Chilean patchworks in Tate 608 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,160 Modern actually, that's where I found them, when I when I 609 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:19,440 learned about them, I started to research knitting and resistance 610 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:23,120 and so sewing and resistance and the fact that it was a real 611 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,940 thing, you know, like people used to use knitting as, almost 612 00:40:25,940 --> 00:40:31,460 like a code, a coding system. These women risked their lives 613 00:40:31,460 --> 00:40:35,000 knitting passing on messages using stitches and things and 614 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,780 patterns were used. Knitting patterns had had messages in 615 00:40:38,780 --> 00:40:42,460 them and things. I was, like, blown away that textiles could 616 00:40:42,460 --> 00:40:47,980 be so powerful. And around the world, I just turned 50, and I 617 00:40:47,980 --> 00:40:51,640 bought, for the first time ever, I actually bought a sewing 618 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:56,920 magazine I'd had aborted on numerous occasions, sewing I'd 619 00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,620 sort of like, Oh, I'm going to be a sewer. I'd got patterns 620 00:40:59,620 --> 00:41:02,040 like, with my children, my poor children, had to wear these 621 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:06,540 things that I made. And I made all their Builder Bear clothes. 622 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,440 So I kept having these attempts at sewing and kept aborting them 623 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,640 because they were dreadful. But then in 2020, I got this sewing 624 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,600 magazine, and it had Sew over 50 in it. And I thought, oh, maybe 625 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:22,460 I'll have another go at sewing. And and I did, and I sort of 626 00:41:22,460 --> 00:41:26,540 joined so over 50 which is this movement on Instagram. It's 627 00:41:26,540 --> 00:41:28,700 brilliant, actually, it's a brilliant community on 628 00:41:28,700 --> 00:41:32,960 Instagram. And I met some fantastic people around the 629 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:37,340 world, some of them who I've met. I recently met Judith, who 630 00:41:37,340 --> 00:41:41,260 I'd who I'd been sewing with in who's in New Zealand, I met her 631 00:41:41,260 --> 00:41:44,560 for the first time, actually, just a couple of weeks ago in 632 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:48,520 Dunedin. So imagine that. Imagine, imagine meeting 633 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,580 somebody who you've been sewing with online, and then you go 634 00:41:51,580 --> 00:41:53,500 meet them in real life. Yeah, 635 00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,920 another example of the the wonderful connections that are 636 00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,260 made through arts and crafts, yeah. And 637 00:41:59,260 --> 00:42:02,400 also, you know, the internet. The internet's not all bad. It's 638 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:06,120 a great way of connecting people. So we, you know, made 639 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:10,260 friends with two fantastic women, Tina in Australia and 640 00:42:10,260 --> 00:42:13,920 Christine in Holland. Christine actually got me into a Dutch 641 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,400 museum by making one of the national skirts, which, wow, 642 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,480 which is incredible, absolutely incredible. I've actually, I'm 643 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,120 actually in a Dutch Museum, which is extraordinary. Yes, 644 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:29,300 fantastic. And so Vintage Tina and Stein Makes, that's their 645 00:42:29,300 --> 00:42:32,900 Instagram names. We just for fun because we it was the pandemic 646 00:42:32,900 --> 00:42:36,680 and we had nothing else to do. We started the Sewing Resistance 647 00:42:36,740 --> 00:42:40,820 as just a fun thing, and we did these quite silly, fun things. 648 00:42:40,820 --> 00:42:43,480 And it was a way of kind of bringing people together, I 649 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:48,580 think. And, yeah, it's just incredible that I think the 650 00:42:48,580 --> 00:42:51,460 sewing embarking on the sewing and the Sew Over 50 in the 651 00:42:51,460 --> 00:42:55,540 community and and the people that I met through sewing around 652 00:42:55,540 --> 00:42:59,680 the world started

me off actually, I think building my 653 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:04,560 confidence to actually explore my own art and creativity, 654 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,620 because I'd been doing ceramics since my eldest daughter was 655 00:43:07,620 --> 00:43:12,060 born. So Millie was born in 1998 and so for 26 years, I've been 656 00:43:12,060 --> 00:43:15,900 doing ceramics, but it was my girls and some friends and these 657 00:43:15,900 --> 00:43:20,340 experiences that sort of encouraged me to have a go at 658 00:43:20,340 --> 00:43:24,440 just going out there and exhibiting work and, heaven 659 00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:27,980 forbid, maybe even trying to sell it. I wouldn't have had the 660 00:43:27,980 --> 00:43:31,760 confidence before. So they all kind of built up. And the sewing 661 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:36,380 resistance and the silly things that I did with friends online, 662 00:43:36,740 --> 00:43:40,180 we did all sorts of crazy, crazy, silly things. But this 663 00:43:40,180 --> 00:43:43,420 is a lovely result of, if you like healthy curiosity, isn't it 664 00:43:43,420 --> 00:43:46,060 being prepared to try something new? And 665 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:49,840 I'll just quickly, it was just fun. That was the thing, you 666 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:50,140 know, yeah, 667 00:43:50,140 --> 00:43:53,020 again, it goes back to the importance, doesn't it, of fun 668 00:43:53,020 --> 00:43:58,240 and joy and celebration? Yeah. I'll just quickly interject for 669 00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:03,540 the listeners, because we were referencing the significance of 670 00:44:03,540 --> 00:44:07,980 Chilean women in the past and their textiles to convey 671 00:44:08,340 --> 00:44:12,840 messages of human rights violations during the Pinochet 672 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:16,740 regime. That in this same season, season eight, I've also 673 00:44:16,740 --> 00:44:21,980 interviewed Professor Erica Verber, who is the biographer of 674 00:44:22,700 --> 00:44:28,160 Violeta Parra who is Chile's most famous woman artist and 675 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:34,280 activist. Prior to her death in 1967 she was responsible for not 676 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:40,220 only protest songs, all sorts of artwork, painting, tapestries, 677 00:44:40,220 --> 00:44:45,340 ceramics, but equally, using textiles and art to convey 678 00:44:45,340 --> 00:44:48,640 truth, to give voice. So I just thought I'd make that 679 00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:52,000 connection, if listeners would like to explore that Chilean 680 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:54,520 history in further depth. 681 00:44:55,720 --> 00:44:59,500 Ravelry was a great one. Ravelry the Pussy Hat Movement and 682 00:44:59,500 --> 00:45:02,940 things like. That all these things are just so so fantastic. 683 00:45:02,940 --> 00:45:08,280 It's such a great way to protest and join together and organize 684 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:13,140 groups of people. It, yeah, it's quite incredible. The I, I'm 685 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,740 just trying to remember some of the things that that people 686 00:45:16,740 --> 00:45:19,260 submitted to the Sewing Resistance. There was fantastic 687 00:45:19,260 --> 00:45:23,540 things about bees and women's rights, and people put together 688 00:45:23,540 --> 00:45:26,840 these amazing things, but they did it through patchworks on 689 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:30,500 their clothes. And, oh, it's just great. It was really fun. 690 00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,280 It was really fun, and and it just brought people together. 691 00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:36,680 And, yeah, it was really empowering, actually. And I 692 00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:40,780 think it one of these things. I know one of my friends from that 693 00:45:40,780 --> 00:45:45,700 has gone on to dye her own wool. Then she she sells it in markets 694 00:45:45,700 --> 00:45:49,420 now, you know, in up north and and another woman changed her 695 00:45:49,420 --> 00:45:53,380 job. It's just fantastic. You know, I think we gave each other 696 00:45:53,380 --> 00:45:57,700 that confidence. And, you know, we had each other's backs to, 697 00:45:57,700 --> 00:46:00,540 kind of like, encourage each other to do different things and 698 00:46:00,900 --> 00:46:04,260 and inspired each other. You know that you could do things, 699 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:10,200 yeah, yeah. And it's new pathways and owning your own and 700 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:14,880 developing your own identity, a bit like the man you mentioned, 701 00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:18,660 who was recovering from alcoholism, who from a tile 702 00:46:18,660 --> 00:46:21,440 workshop, went on to do a pottery. Course, these are all 703 00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:26,180 significant pathways for change, and actually in terms of 704 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:31,940 identity and empowerment, this is a good time to mention your 705 00:46:31,940 --> 00:46:35,780 current exhibition, which is at the Liminal Gallery in Margate 706 00:46:36,140 --> 00:46:40,420 called Long and I understand you're exploring through 707 00:46:40,420 --> 00:46:44,440 ceramics, the cultural significance of long hair in 708 00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:48,340 relation to femininity, identity and power. I wondered if you'd 709 00:46:48,340 --> 00:46:51,280 like to share a little on that with the listeners. Yeah, 710 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:56,140 it's I'm still pinching myself from yesterday of how many 711 00:46:56,140 --> 00:47:01,860 people came to look at this little installation and shared 712 00:47:01,860 --> 00:47:07,260 their own stories with me and their own experiences. It was 713 00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:11,640 quite something. So the installation is inspired by a 714 00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:15,360 photograph that I inherited from my grandma. It's my maternal 715 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:19,140 family. So it's my great grandma, Emily, and the stories 716 00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:22,760 that my grandma, my grandma, Phyllis used to tell me when I 717 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:26,540 was a teenager. So I'm

from Bronte country. I think that's 718 00:47:26,540 --> 00:47:27,560 quite important. 719 00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:28,880 I'm from the grim north. 720 00:47:30,140 --> 00:47:32,900 I think you said you were born in a snowstorm where birds 721 00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,280 fly backwards. Yes, born on the Moors in a snowstorm. March the 722 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:41,080 first. It's true. It's actually true. I can't believe my mum 723 00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:45,820 told me that, but it is true. And my Nana Phyllis used to tell 724 00:47:45,820 --> 00:47:49,060 me these stories. She, you know, she had these photographs. 725 00:47:49,060 --> 00:47:51,760 Unfortunately, I don't have all the photographs. I inherited, 726 00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:55,120 about a dozen that she said I had to look after, but she used 727 00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:58,540 to get this tin of photos out. And my nan had been a chorus 728 00:47:58,540 --> 00:48:01,740 girl, and she'd but she'd burnt most of the photographs when my 729 00:48:01,740 --> 00:48:06,540 granddad died, but she had these photos that she kept. And as 730 00:48:06,540 --> 00:48:11,760 people died, she'd cut their faces out. And it apparently is 731 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,160 quite a thing. You know it was, it was respectful, because you 732 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:17,700 were letting their spirit rest. That was her philosophy. How 733 00:48:17,700 --> 00:48:20,720 interesting. Yeah. So she had these, like photographs with 734 00:48:20,720 --> 00:48:24,020 faces cut out, and she used to tell me all the stories behind 735 00:48:24,020 --> 00:48:26,900 the photograph. Now, as a teenager, I was little Gothic 736 00:48:26,900 --> 00:48:30,260 teenager in Leeds, Bradford, you know, was into the cure and the 737 00:48:30,260 --> 00:48:34,280 cult, but I still, still struggled with my Nana's Gothic 738 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:39,200 stories. She'd tell me all these stories, and it'd be the same 739 00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:42,940 story and over and over again. And I adored my Grandma. She was 740 00:48:42,940 --> 00:48:46,660 so funny. But then, but then, she had these photographs of her 741 00:48:46,660 --> 00:48:49,600 mother, of my great grandma, Emily. And, you know, she used 742 00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:54,100 to have this incredible long hair, and she had a photograph 743 00:48:54,100 --> 00:48:57,400 of her with her hair long, and a photograph with her hair up. And 744 00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:59,920 she'd tell me, you know, about, you know, oh, she wouldn't get 745 00:48:59,920 --> 00:49:04,320 it cut, and it killed her, you know, it killed her. And, and 746 00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:07,080 she'd say things like, she got new money, she got pneumonia 747 00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:09,960 more than once, because I'd be plaiting her hair in front of 748 00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:12,960 the fire, and she'd go out with it wet. And, and I remember 749 00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:16,740 thinking, Oh, nanny is, you know, so dramatic. And then I 750 00:49:16,740 --> 00:49:19,680 got these photos out, and I was showing my own children them. 751 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:23,420 And I just, I don't know. I just, I think, I don't know how 752 00:49:23,420 --> 00:49:26,780 your phone does this, but it starts feeding you information. 753 00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,980 And there's an amazing Instagram account called History with Amy. 754 00:49:30,980 --> 00:49:33,980 It's fantastic. If you haven't seen it, have a look at it. And 755 00:49:33,980 --> 00:49:38,060 she did this thing about Victorian women and long hair. I 756 00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:40,840 was like, Oh, my God, that's out the photograph of my great 757 00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:44,800 grandma, Emily, and it turns out that they did get these terrible 758 00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:49,060 headaches. They did die. And I started doing a bit of research, 759 00:49:49,060 --> 00:49:53,080 and the chances are that my grandma, you know, while being 760 00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,020 probably a little bit dramatic, was actually there was some 761 00:49:56,020 --> 00:49:59,620 truth in that, you know, she did have terrible headaches. She did 762 00:49:59,620 --> 00:50:03,900 get. Pneumonia and things and and who knows whether her hair 763 00:50:03,900 --> 00:50:07,680 did kill her or not, but she did die young. And then I found out 764 00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,620 things like Empress Elizabeth of Austria, who has the most 765 00:50:10,620 --> 00:50:14,760 amazing quote, which is, "I'm a slave to my hair." And she used 766 00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:18,420 to get her hair combed, and if, if hairs came out, the 767 00:50:18,420 --> 00:50:22,040 attendants had to put it into a ceramic bowl for her to examine. 768 00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:29,540 Oh, wow. And this was time of my great grandma, Emily. It's 769 00:50:29,540 --> 00:50:32,780 exactly the same time, yeah. And these, there's a number of these 770 00:50:32,780 --> 00:50:37,040 photographs. I found a few of them now, and they're very 771 00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:39,740 intimate. So these photographs were taken and they were 772 00:50:39,740 --> 00:50:42,340 intimate photographs. They weren't for public display. They 773 00:50:43,660 --> 00:50:47,980 were very private. And you know my grandma, when she when she 774 00:50:47,980 --> 00:50:50,800 turned into a teenager, my great grandma would have had to have 775 00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:55,900 her hair up and it would have had to been covered. And I just 776 00:50:55,900 --> 00:50:59,860 by looking at my own heritage and my own culture, I kind of 777 00:50:59,860 --> 00:51:03,600 can see parallels with other cultures now, where women are 778 00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:08,100 expected to have their hair up or covered, and we seem so far 779 00:51:08,100 --> 00:51:11,820 removed from that, but we're not really, because it is in our in 780 00:51:11,820 --> 00:51:16,200 our own ancestry, our own grandparents. So so it's been 781 00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:18,660

really interesting to look at that. With this particular 782 00:51:18,660 --> 00:51:21,620 installation. I'm only looking at my own heritage and my own, 783 00:51:21,620 --> 00:51:25,820 my own culture and my own, my own sort of ancestry, my own 784 00:51:25,820 --> 00:51:30,260 grandparents. But everybody's got a relationship with hair in 785 00:51:30,260 --> 00:51:33,800 some way, and so having the mirror there, you can see 786 00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,080 yourself, and you can start questioning your own 787 00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:40,660 experiences, your own history, with your own hair, but also our 788 00:51:40,660 --> 00:51:44,080 own prejudices as well. And one of the I've been really 789 00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:50,140 fortunate to have four living, long haired people who who are 790 00:51:50,140 --> 00:51:54,520 my Muses and models in this exhibition. And they've all 791 00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:58,660 they've been amazing, amazing women, and they've all provided 792 00:51:58,660 --> 00:52:03,720 me with great quotes and great stories. And one of the stories 793 00:52:03,780 --> 00:52:08,340 is that somebody actually, this particular person, was there in 794 00:52:08,340 --> 00:52:13,080 the room with their long hair. And a person actually had the 795 00:52:13,140 --> 00:52:17,040 audacity to say another woman came in bit disheveled, and he 796 00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:21,020 actually said, "You can always tell how mad a woman is by how 797 00:52:21,020 --> 00:52:29,060 long her hair is." Wow. And how, like, you know, people will, you 798 00:52:29,060 --> 00:52:31,940 know, describe them as, oh, that person with the long hair, or 799 00:52:32,780 --> 00:52:36,020 one of the models is actually a redhead, so she brings a whole 800 00:52:36,020 --> 00:52:37,700 new sort of, like story. 801 00:52:38,660 --> 00:52:44,020 Yeah, so many preconceived ideas and prejudices. Yeah, and, 802 00:52:44,020 --> 00:52:47,500 you know, and women are guilty too of judging men by whether 803 00:52:47,500 --> 00:52:51,280 they do or don't have hair. So that's another great angle to 804 00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,580 the whole installation. My narrative in it is actually 805 00:52:54,580 --> 00:52:58,540 quite small. You know, the mirror provides a much bigger 806 00:52:58,540 --> 00:53:02,700 narrative, which people bring to it with their own stories and 807 00:53:02,700 --> 00:53:06,660 their own ideas and and then, yeah, you know, their own 808 00:53:06,660 --> 00:53:10,980 experiences. Yeah, it's relatability, which I think all 809 00:53:10,980 --> 00:53:15,840 of your work is, is so good at offering. And a big shout out to 810 00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:20,840 the Liminal Gallery in Margate for supporting local artists so 811 00:53:20,900 --> 00:53:25,400 positively, yeah, it's an amazing, amazing space. We're so 812 00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:29,660 fortunate to have Liminal Gallery and, yeah, amazingly 813 00:53:29,660 --> 00:53:34,820 curated by Louise Fitzjohn, who

runs that, that gallery, in that 814 00:53:34,820 --> 00:53:38,300 gallery space and the online space and the podcast. She's so 815 00:53:38,300 --> 00:53:41,980 encouraging and so incredible and so professional. Yeah, to 816 00:53:41,980 --> 00:53:46,240 have this opportunity, I literally am kind of like just 817 00:53:46,240 --> 00:53:47,560 checking I'm really alive. 818 00:53:49,420 --> 00:53:52,720 It's really positive, it's really exciting. And so Jane, 819 00:53:52,720 --> 00:53:57,280 because, because we've crept over time, I should move to the 820 00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:01,860 last question, which I ask everybody, which is the series 821 00:54:01,860 --> 00:54:05,040 question, Can art save us? 822 00:54:06,060 --> 00:54:12,060 Yeah, definitely, definitely, I think it does, you know, 823 00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:18,420 the arts. So, art, music, drama, theater, literature, yeah, they 824 00:54:18,420 --> 00:54:23,180 can even, you know, reading a book can save you. Being 825 00:54:23,180 --> 00:54:27,140 involved in in any sort of art projects, arts projects, going 826 00:54:27,140 --> 00:54:32,000 to the theater, so many things can save you. You know how they 827 00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:36,800 save you is up to you, really. They can save you in lots of 828 00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:39,500 ways. They can make you rethink something. 829 00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:43,660 And I think as your work illustrates it, can save you 830 00:54:43,900 --> 00:54:47,620 simply through the power of connection and social 831 00:54:47,620 --> 00:54:48,460 connection. 832 00:54:48,700 --> 00:54:53,140 And I know that art saved me on more than one occasion, 833 00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:56,020 sometimes just looking at something, reading something, 834 00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,560 watching something the telly, binge watching the telly, can 835 00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:03,600 save you. You, and that's art. You know, so many things can 836 00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:08,760 save you. Graphic Art can save you. You know, advertising, 837 00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:13,680 there's so many, art is such a big thing. And community arts just 838 00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:16,920 one little bit of it. But yeah, listening to it, listening to a 839 00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,140 piece of music that changes your mind. 840 00:55:19,860 --> 00:55:23,480 It's about the relationship, isn't it, how we respond to any 841 00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:24,980 of the art forms? Yeah, 842 00:55:25,220 --> 00:55:28,820 yeah. I always joke with some of the young people that I've sort 843 00:55:28,820 --> 00:55:32,900 of taught and been lucky enough to watch grow up and things, and 844 00:55:32,900 --> 00:55:36,200 I've said one of the best dates you can have, honestly, is go to 845 00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:38,840 an art gallery with somebody, because you'll you'll definitely 846 00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:41,420 know whether it you know that somebody you want to spend time 847 00:55:41,420 --> 00:55:45,580 with or not. And I think it's been able to have a conversation 848 00:55:45,580 --> 00:55:48,940 about something, whether you agree or disagree, what your 849 00:55:48,940 --> 00:55:52,120 opinions are, what you might feel or think about something. 850 00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:56,440 And the arts can do that. Music can do that. Reading can do 851 00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:59,500 that. Telly can do that. You know, opening up those 852 00:55:59,500 --> 00:56:02,940 conversations where you can learn more about each other and 853 00:56:02,940 --> 00:56:07,140 learn more about yourself. All that, I think, saves us. 854 00:56:07,260 --> 00:56:11,280 But all of the examples are so positive because it is just 855 00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:16,200 about opening up dialog and understanding and relatability 856 00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:19,380 and sharing. So I think everything you touched on really 857 00:56:19,380 --> 00:56:23,480 highlights those values. It's been so useful to talk to you 858 00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:27,980 about all of these projects. Jayne, I know we're over time, so 859 00:56:27,980 --> 00:56:30,500 I can't thank you enough for fitting this in, particularly 860 00:56:30,500 --> 00:56:32,660 when you've had a particularly hectic time. Yeah, 861 00:56:32,660 --> 00:56:36,440 I hope I've made sense. I'm kind of a bit blurry, still waking up. 862 00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:36,680 No, 863 00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:39,620 not at all, not at all. It's been really interesting to 864 00:56:39,620 --> 00:56:45,100 talk this through. So sending lots of love to Margate, where I 865 00:56:45,100 --> 00:56:50,080 grew up as a kid. Yes come back soon. Yeah, no, I continue 866 00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:55,900 to visit. I still have family. and friends there. And you know 867 00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:59,620 all the luck in the world as your projects continue, and 868 00:56:59,620 --> 00:57:03,780 particularly the Tiles of Joy, which will continue throughout 869 00:57:03,780 --> 00:57:07,440 this year and also to the listeners, thank you, of course, 870 00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:11,280 for joining us. Please remember to share this free to listen 871 00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:15,360 series wherever you can, or any of the episodes you like to help 872 00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:19,140 make the arts all of ours. Thank you again, Jayne. I really 873 00:57:19,140 --> 00:57:20,720 appreciate your time. Thank 874 00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:23,240 you, thank you for your time and thank you for everybody who's 875 00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:23,840 listened.