النص الكامل لحلقة Data Centers

third-party uh facilities, much like direct link, where you can uh simply lease space, lease uh and by space not necessarily square footage, although it could come down to square footage, but you're leasing data space based on what your company needs are. 00:06:55.519 --> 00:06:59.839 Uh DirectLink, again, is a great uh a great example. 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:08.560 Uh the third, and this is what we are focused on, they're often referred to as supercomputing data centers or hyperscale. 00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:10.959 These are enormous. 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:21.600 They typically are at least 10,000 square feet, and in many cases can be hundreds of thousands of square feet in size. 00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:30.160 Uh they're owned largely by tech giants, AWS, Microsoft, Google, Meta, and others. 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:33.920 In some cases, they may be built speculative. 00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:48.720 Uh the one tour that I did uh is an entire campus uh up in Berwick, and that's all AWS, uh, and it's right next to uh a nuclear uh power uh plant. 00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:53.680 The one other type that I just want to touch on are called edge data centers. 00:07:53.839 --> 00:08:11.680 They're small, they're localized, they're positioned physically close to the end user, uh, and they it it is it's typically for smaller business or entity, but again, is separate but very, very close. 00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:19.839 The idea is it could be a building 50 feet away, uh, and they tend not to be that large. 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:26.319 Our focus is on the hyper data centers or the supercomputing. 00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:41.679 And one of the things I think will help our listeners understand why we're talking about that, if you think back when did we start talking about data centers in the last two to three years. 00:08:42.159 --> 00:08:50.720 It it traces right back to November of 2022, chat open AI, and multiple ones since then. 00:08:50.879 --> 00:09:04.960 Groc, uh if you look at Google has Gemini, uh Microsoft uh Copilot, uh Anthropic has Claude, and uh there are multiple others uh that are out there. 00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:13.600 And I think that's a very good point, Christian, because uh for a very long time the data centers operated under the radar. 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:18.960 Nobody they thought of them as maybe a small server farm that was accessory to a business. 00:09:19.039 --> 00:09:42.639 We would consider it an accessory use uh in land use terminology, and then uh it became a use in and of itself, and with heightened awareness because of the debate over warehouses, particularly in counties along interstate corridors like Burks County, that's when you saw the discussion start, is when they were in larger buildings, similar similar to the warehouses, only larger. 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:52.159 Yeah, uh when you look at that, it it's very easy for people to get some of the information. 00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:59.440 And I think in the beginning, what people began to hear is this is more than just a warehouse. 00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:05.919 Because let's be honest, warehouses uh were the bad thing for quite some time. 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:14.399 I'm not saying they've turned and become the thing that people want, but I've actually heard people say I'd rather have a warehouse than a data center. 00:10:14.639 --> 00:10:20.000 And I get that because now you're looking at completely different impacts with the warehouse. 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:21.200 What was the big thing? 00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:22.399 It was trucks coming. 00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:29.440 And it was traffic and no it was traffic and noise, but now the concern is the water and power usage. 00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:31.279 There's very little truck traffic. 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:35.440 And when you first heard about data centers, it was well, there's no truck traffic. 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:36.559 What's the downside? 00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:44.799 And then then you heard stories out of Texas and out of Northern Virginia about the water supply, wells, and power. 00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:46.639 Now we'll we'll talk about it later, I'm sure. 00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:49.039 Sound vibration vibration. 00:10:49.279 --> 00:10:49.519 Yep. 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:59.279 And that was the early days of it, but uh it's it's still out there as a as a big concern, and that's where our ordinances come in to abate those problems. 00:10:59.919 --> 00:11:01.759 And you mentioned uh Virginia. 00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:13.279 I know uh a couple of the uh commissioners uh in actually I believe their supervisors, uh Mike and uh Phyllis Randall's one I've known for a number of years. 00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:18.559 They actually trace their data center development back to the founding of AOL. 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:27.519 So even there, I early on made the mistake of saying Loudoun County, Virginia is the data center capital of the world. 00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:37.200 Now it is, but we have to be cautious that those data centers are not all the uh supercomputing data centers. 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:40.399 They literally go back to AOL. 00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:48.480 AOL uh kind of settled in that spot and uh never left and is still around. 00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:54.399 Uh so this brings up, I think, an important issue. 00:11:55.360 --> 00:12:03.679 We saw this in the county, uh all each of you probably from a little bit different perspective. 00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:16.000 Uh we saw it from discussions we had, uh discussions in the planning community, uh talking to communities that uh had other challenges. 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:28.960 Uh you saw it from the standpoint as people started showing up at supervisors meetings or commissioners in our uh second-class, uh, first class townships. 00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:40.480 And permitting, I don't know, we've you haven't done any permitting yet uh for a data center in Burks, a hyperscale data center. 00:12:40.799 -->

00:12:41.440 Yeah, not yet. 00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:42.000 Not yet. 00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:48.720 There's there's plans, but but you're you're aware of other ones in the state through your colleagues. 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:52.320 Uh you've been involved in the ordinance standpoint. 00:12:52.799 --> 00:13:15.039 Ashley, if you could talk to us, the county, I don't want to say we were in front of the curve, but we were ahead and still are ahead of where many counties are when it comes to addressing this and helping our municipalities uh understand what this is and what they can do and what they should do. 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:31.120 Yes, so as you said, you know, even starting way back in 2022, you know, four years ago, the planning association for planners um is always training and sticking with the emerging land uses and impacts of what they will be. 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:40.000 And so with that came a lot of research, a lot of webinars, um discussing about the impacts of these hyperscale facilities. 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:56.159 And so, in doing that, and and our role as a county of being a support system for our local municipalities, we created um in April of this year our planning advice for data centers, which which we could probably pop up onto the screen. 00:13:56.240 --> 00:14:09.759 Um, there's a link there, um, and also an image of the data advice, but really giving our municipalities the first outline of here's what you need to discuss and plan for and what you should consider when you're planning for them. 00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:11.440 And what why don't you take us through this? 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:12.240 We have time. 00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:14.399 This is a longer uh show. 00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:36.080 I think that this information is so important, not just what you provided, but talk a little bit about uh the research you did and your team did before you put out the document and uh how people can not only access the document, but access a lot of your sources of uh research. 00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:37.360 Yes, thank you. 00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:39.519 Um so you can find this. 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:46.799 Um the link is on the screen there, but it you can find it on the Planning Commission's main webpage under planning advice. 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:54.159 You if you scroll down from our main page, there will be a card there that says planning advice, and then you would look for the data center advice. 00:14:54.399 --> 00:15:02.399 But this really provided our municipalities, again, um 20 recommendations to consider. 00:15:02.799 --> 00:15:12.960 And so we have things about one talking about addressing it on a comprehensive planning level process, um, and then getting into the zoning. 00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:19.279 But if they chose to go with just their zoning and allowing that, we talked about things about overlay zonings. 00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:20.159 Uh zoning. 00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:33.759 Because these are kind of the big steps, and then we can uh get into some of the detail uh with what your recommendations are. 00:15:34.159 --> 00:15:34.399 Okay. 00:15:34.639 --> 00:15:38.639 Um so again, you want being proactive, that's the first thing. 00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:40.879 So plan before proposals arrive. 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:43.039 And really there's mechanisms in place. 00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:48.960 Joan could probably talk to that end, but really you want to plan before proposals arrive. 00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:51.679 So let's touch on that, the legal side of that. 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:53.039 Why is that important? 00:15:53.519 --> 00:16:01.919 Well, why can't we just say uh we'll deal with it when it when it arrives, or better yet, let's make them illegal. 00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:04.879 There there are there are two problems with that. 00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:40.720 Number one, uh a municipality under decisions of Pennsylvania courts and under the municipality's planning code, which is the statute under which uh all land use ordinances are written and decisions made, requires that a municipality uh provide for every lawful land use, or that a comprehensive plan area, a joint comprehensive plan area, if the zoning ordinances are uh consistent with each other, or a joint zoning ordinance area, that there be an area where every use is reasonably provided for. 00:16:41.279 --> 00:17:21.039 And the problem is that if you don't have a lawful use provided for and someone comes in with a plan, there is a possibility that your ordinance is deemed to exclude the use, and then a court can award what's called site-specific relief, and that is that the uh the court can decide that the location where the owner or developer wants to put the use, could be the data center, is an appropriate location for it, and uh they will get they will get their use, and there won't be any regulations in place for it, because that's an important part of what zoning and zoning ordinances do. 00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:30.640 The old saying is uh and it was from the uh Supreme Court decision that uh that enabled zoning, is you don't want the pig in the parlor. 00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:37.599 And uh it was um the Euclid, Euclid decision uh from the early 20th century. 00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:42.240 And this it puts every use in their place where it belongs. 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:50.960 For example, with data centers, very often that will be uh a district where industrial uses are allowed, such as uh warehouse uses. 00:17:51.119 --> 00:18:01.680 Uh often you will find that uh data centers are proposed for industrial areas where industry hasn't been there for quite some time and there's an abandoned industrial. 00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:06.319 Perfect Fort Brownfields is is another example of that. 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:21.519 Uh but it allows for regulations that can uh make that can mitigate some of the more negative effects you were talking about, sound and vibration, allows for setbacks, requires

buffering, requires noise canceling equipment, all of those things can be provided for. 00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:33.519 But if you don't have an ordinance on the books, there's no regulation for it, and it's the developer will be able to put in whatever, you know, what the the use however they want it. 00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:36.799 So you have to be able to put have reasonable regulation. 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:45.279 The other side of exclusionary zoning is if you have an ordinance, but it is so strict that it keeps the use out. 00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:54.640 Maybe it maybe it theoretically allows data centers, but the lot size is impossible or the restrictions make it impossible. 00:18:54.880 --> 00:19:08.000 And the courts in those cases can overrule those ordinances as exclusionary, either de facto exclusionary or exclusionary because it it actively keeps it, prohibits the use everywhere. 00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:11.759 So that's where that's where our land use ordinances come in. 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:16.319 Yeah, and there are many municipalities in Burks already working on them. 00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:19.680 Several have already passed their ordinances. 00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:30.799 And I would just say to the public, uh it's important for them to understand their municipality, at least in addressing it with an ordinance, they're doing the right thing. 00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:34.640 Now, what the ordinance says is also important. 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:40.480 So you want an ordinance in place before the data center is being uh proposed. 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:42.079 Talk about location. 00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:42.880 Right. 00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:58.000 And and and I think Joan touched on that as well of think about your location again, primarily industrial zoned areas, but maybe again lease impact, who the receptors will be, the the the adjacent land uses around it. 00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:02.240 Again, also looking at infrastructure, that's critical. 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:03.440 What infrastructure is there? 00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:07.039 Sewer, water, electric primarily, maybe natural gas. 00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:07.920 Yes. 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:26.720 Um location is key, access to, even thinking about in into the weeds a little bit about emergency access, again, with the type of infrastructure that's going to be built there and housed there, emergency service access to that uh is important to consider as well. 00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:35.119 And Dean, from a conservation district standpoint, you're focused very much on erosion, sediment control. 00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:45.119 Location that Ashley's talking about is particular zoning area, considering what's around that. 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:50.559 What aspects of location are important to the conservation district? 00:20:51.039 --> 00:21:08.799 Well, we're we're concerned with obviously water resources, uh, and if a data center is located to an exceptional value stream, high quality value stream, or wetland or things like that, that's where we take a little harder look at uh these these development projects in the county. 00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:11.119 And you come into play with the permitting. 00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:30.319 Just briefly explain the kind of permitting that comes into place because a township or a municipality may have a grade ordinance in place, and within that ordinance it's allowed in certain places, or we just had a municipality literally carve and say this place only. 00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:40.480 Uh what are you again are you looking at when that developer comes in and says, We we need your approval? 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:41.359 What is that approval? 00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:58.160 Yeah, so just a step back, uh the conservation district is delegated by the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection to review all uh new construction stormwater permits uh for you know land development projects in throughout the county. 00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:22.640 So when when a permit comes Comes in to us, we're looking at it from uh during the construction phase, we're mostly looking at it from uh erosion sediment control aspect uh to make sure that there are best management practices in place to capture the water runoff during the construction project, and so that it's not discharged into our streams and our wetlands here in Berks County. 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:32.880 And like we said, a project doesn't come to you until it's first gone uh to the township, and it's part of the overall permitting uh process. 00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:54.079 One other item on location, uh, and we talk briefly, but I want to emphasize the best location is a brownfield site where infrastructure already exists, where there's the ability to take a site, and I'm gonna give two examples in Berks County. 00:22:54.400 --> 00:23:00.799 NGK over in Muhlenburg Township, former beryllium facility, a lot of issues. 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:08.319 It's been cleaned up to a certain uh level, uh, but you can bring a data center in at a location like that. 00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:13.359 You're not really coming up against much in the way of residential. 00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:32.240 Uh pretty, I mean you have a cemetery on one side surrounded by uh streets on uh four sides and some commercial uh activity, but you now get that cleaned up to even a greater uh standard, and you have arguably your utilities there. 00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:34.559 Titus Station is the other one. 00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:45.119 Uh Titus Station was a power plant uh up until maybe 10, 12 years ago, somewhere in there when it was uh shut down because it was no longer efficient. 00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:47.440 Uh that is important. 00:23:48.319 --> 00:24:03.359 Uh most people don't want to see any type of industrial work in the middle of a farm, in the middle of a township where all you might have is a township road. 00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:11.920 You don't have the sewer, you don't have

the water, you don't have uh the the uh scope of electric power available. 00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:17.519 So that's another aspect of location as a township uh looks at that. 00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:36.559 And it's also better for the data center developer itself, too, because if they don't have those resources, if they don't have the water, the power in particular, or the sewer, they have to extend all of those all of those items to the site. 00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:43.920 And many ordinances that's one of the key points of the ordinance is you must bring your own water to the site. 00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:55.680 You must be connected to the public sewer, and you must have sufficient power because we want to mitigate those potential impacts on our power, our power rates, and our water for our community residents. 00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:57.599 And that's the third point here. 00:24:57.839 --> 00:25:00.799 Determine how resources are protected for the future. 00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:02.000 Talk about that, Ashley. 00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:08.720 Um so again, it it all plays into all you can see the pieces here of the ordinance. 00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:19.599 Um, but again, thinking about how if there's not enough um water and soar resources there, how is that going to impact in the future? 00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:22.000 How does that impact the community? 00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:34.799 Um, you're also talking about though your water resources, your woodlands, your steep slopes, all of that, the ecosystem resources that we want to pay attention to and address as we're developing the ordinances. 00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:39.519 And really the responsibility also is part of this. 00:25:39.759 --> 00:26:08.160 This responsibility for power uh in our uh recommendations, but in virtually any of the good uh ordinances out there, rest of the country, most of these are county-level ordinances, here they're municipal, require the data center to either provide its own power, and we're probably three to five years away from on-site uh mini-nuclear generation. 00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:12.480 Uh and I that's controversial with some people, uh, not with me. 00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:14.799 Uh I think that makes a whole lot of sense. 00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:34.000 But in the interim, they have to prove and have from the local power company uh documentation that they have the power available without impacting in any way other commercial or residential property owners. 00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:51.359 So you can't come in and the and the power company is saying everybody's rates are going up because XYZ Data Center is uh needs this, or water rates are going up because XYD, XYZ Data Center uh needs these resources. 00:26:51.519 --> 00:27:08.079 You gotta you have we have to determine what the resources are that need to be protected, and the responsibility, enforcement is the responsibility of government, but the responsibility of the payfor has to be the data center. 00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:39.599 And one of one of the key points uh that many municipalities have in their ordinances, and I believe that Penn Futures has in the model ordinance that many uh many residents and advocacy groups and township uh officials have seen, and municipal officials have seen, is not only does the uh data center developer in the application process have to provide the will serve letter for power uh in particular, also also for water, but that that's another issue. 00:27:39.759 --> 00:27:58.240 Uh but they have to have a study, uh, an actual impact study at the phase of a land use approval to show, signed and sealed by a qualified engineer whose license is on the line, uh, to show that it's not going to affect power rates. 00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:08.400 And uh same with same with water, uh, although some of the newer data centers are less likely to use as much water because of different types of cooling systems that recycle. 00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:09.119 Right. 00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:11.200 And we'll we'll get into that. 00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:24.960 Uh let's touch a little bit on uh when we look at the building itself, how it's being uh not the building, but the functionality. 00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:27.839 Water has been mentioned several times. 00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:34.960 Water's probably the biggest thing that the conservation district deals with. 00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:42.160 Because we live in the Northeast United States, we're largely spoiled when it comes to water. 00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:48.880 We have a drought now and then, a drought to us, uh, you know, we we got a burn ban. 00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:51.200 If it's really bad, we get a burn ban. 00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:57.279 And if it's really bad during the summer, uh farmers get hit with it. 00:28:57.599 --> 00:29:10.880 But most of the country has a water shortage, and when you get to the west and southwest, uh there are questions about certain industries surviving long term because of the lack of water. 00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:20.240 As a result, many, and I believe a vast majority of the newer data center proposals coming through are not water-cooled. 00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:26.880 They are air-cooled, uh, which leads to sound and vibration issues, these huge fans. 00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:32.640 But where they are water-cooled, our recommendation is a closed loop. 00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:33.519 Closed loop system. 00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:40.640 Closed loop system, yeah, which uh makes a big difference on your end of the picture. 00:29:40.799 --> 00:29:45.519 If you want to talk a little bit how that changes the way you look at it from the district. 00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:56.480 Yeah, that that those that's huge if they can, you know, do a closed loop system because they're not extracting water from the ground or from streams or lakes, things like that. 00:29:56.720 --> 00:30:06.240 You know, Pennsylvania is water rich, and that's one of the why some of the reasons why they're attracted to

Pennsylvania is because of our water resources. 00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:15.200 So if they can, you know, have a closed loop system, that is much less of a demand on our water resources here. 00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:19.039 We've took talked a lot about the infrastructure. 00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:23.119 Let's talk a little bit about managing the community impacts. 00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:30.319 We've all touched on it, but could you look at the ordinance and just share some of the types of things? 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:43.039 We talked just briefly about buffers, but buffers, buffers can be distances, buffers can be physical uh buffers, uh buffers can be architectural requirements. 00:30:43.200 --> 00:31:02.000 Some of the newest data centers have uh uh new architectural designs along the roof, a parapet that drives the sound back into the building roof area versus just a flat roof with a lot a lot of uh fans. 00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:03.440 Can you talk about that, Ashley? 00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:23.759 So yeah, again, different mechanisms for as they design these buildings, like so you do have buffers, but even the way the building's designed, even talking about like again, using if it's gonna be a massive structure, you know, a hundred plus thousand square feet uh square foot building, um, what can they do? 00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:26.559 So like mitigating heat island effect, right? 00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:27.920 Heating, heating measures. 00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:29.759 How are how can they do that? 00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:39.359 Um, you know, uh you can also uh talk about um you know, renewable energy to the extent possible. 00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:45.359 Can you put solar panels on top of the facility to help some of generate some of that energy? 00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:50.640 And again, won't impact the entire community infrastructure for electric. 00:31:50.960 --> 00:32:05.759 Um again, looking at lighting even and and things of those mechanisms, what is the standard for that and what what has been established for those zones and making sure, you know, again, these are secured facilities most often than not. 00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:10.079 So, what will be the impacts of of lighting of the facility? 00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:19.680 Um but talking also too about the community impacts of the use and what it will bring. 00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:22.640 You talked uh we talked about traffic in warehouses, right? 00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:25.680 Data centers don't necessarily generate traffic. 00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:27.519 They don't even have truck docks. 00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:29.119 Right. 00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:39.200 Uh so so there's things things like that where it's like, okay, you know, you you're mitigating that part of the infrastructure of the roads for the community. 00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:50.079 Um but again, more looking at those natural resource impacts, but also to inf the the water and soar impacts and the electric and natural gas, all of that. 00:32:50.640 --> 00:33:01.119 And even the from the location, uh I highlighted brownfields in large part because people don't, as a rule, live next to brownfields. 00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:09.519 Uh people in Lauraldale might argue with me, the old X side building is still there, the county is still engaged with EPA on that. 00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:29.680 Uh but generally speaking, uh when we talk about the impacts, we're trying to look at every potential impact and saying how do we either eliminate that issue or significantly control that issue through an ordinance. 00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:33.119 Uh the last area on the list, long-term accountability. 00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:33.759 Mm-hmm. 00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:45.440 So, and this comes into, I know that some of the other ordinances that we've seen for review at the County Planning Commission level um have talked about different um pre-construction impact studies. 00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:54.559 So, again, looking at noise, looking at um vibration, um there's long-term monitoring that could be uh required. 00:33:54.720 --> 00:34:05.920 And you said I'm sure Dean can speak to monitoring as far as water resources, like monitoring uh groundwater wells and aquifer, uh also surface water. 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:21.280 So those are long-term kind of accountability things that municipalities can consider both prior to the pro you know, prior to the project being constructed, but then working into their ordinance language of after that building's there and what that will look at. 00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:21.920 Right. 00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:49.039 And in ordinances that uh I have seen and worked with, for example, with the issue of noise, there's required to be a noise impact study during the uh the zoning process, the conditional use or special exception process, and uh one also after it's been in operation, a noise study to ensure that it's not exceeding the requirements. 00:34:49.119 --> 00:35:10.159 And and one area where ordinances can can be the most helpful and can most mitigate the impacts is by having quantifiable standards, a certain number of decibels uh that can be heard at the property line and no more, uh, that takes into account uh the area where it's in what's called ambient noise. 00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:19.440 You're going to have a different uh standard uh next to an interstate highway as opposed to in a more quiet rural area. 00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:23.280 Uh and are they meeting that quantifiable standard? 00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:27.920 Both are they able to with the impact study based on equipment that they use? 00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:30.000 Are they using noise canceling equipment? 00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:32.079 Are they using landscape buffering? 00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:35.440 Certain natural buffering is noise absorbent. 00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:40.960 There are sound barriers similar to what you see along highways that can be that can be used. 00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:44.320 So there noise is

just one example of this. 00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:46.159 So, what about vibrations? 00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:52.559 Um, I'm familiar with a case in Loudon County, Virginia a couple of years ago. 00:35:52.719 --> 00:36:03.760 Uh with the new switch from water cooling to air cooling, it wasn't just a sound issue, it became a vibration issue. 00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:19.920 And because they had standards on vibration in their ordinance when the plant uh data center started up, they had a town two miles away where people could feel the vibrations. 00:36:20.079 --> 00:36:33.760 They were able to shut the operation down immediately and force them to put in new a new fan system that uh dramatically lowered uh the vibrations. 00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:45.039 There's an example, if you don't know that from some other example, you potentially miss that and you've got uh a rough situation on your hands. 00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:47.280 Long-term accountability. 00:36:47.440 --> 00:36:59.199 There's another issue, and I know I was one that brought this up early this year to uh our planning uh commission, and I've had this discussion at the national level. 00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:09.760 There's two concerns that I have about uh the types of structures that are going up. 00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:17.920 While a lot of people don't like warehouses, warehouses can be adapted to a lot of different uses. 00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:26.239 On 61 Leesport, there it's not a huge warehouse, but uh I believe it was a moving and storage, it's now a church. 00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:29.599 Uh very easily was retrofitted to a church. 00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:40.960 Data centers are designed for one purpose, uh and they're not easily uh adapted to some other use. 00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:44.000 So the issue of decommissioning comes into place. 00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:46.639 And I think it comes in two flavors. 00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:59.599 One, and this is my personal belief, uh I remember talking about the changes in financial rules for tech companies at the end of the last century. 00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:09.679 People began to finally say around 1999, well, I guess it isn't about whether you're making money or not, it's your stock value. 00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:24.559 And those I think all of us are old enough to remember, maybe not actually, but uh that there were companies that their stock was worth several times any kind of assets that they had. 00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:36.159 And about the time people believed the rules had changed, and that was okay, March of 2001 came and we had the tech bubble burst. 00:38:36.639 --> 00:38:42.000 I believe there's a possibility for the same thing to happen with generative AI. 00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:57.920 Uh, everyone is jumping on the AI, and again, generative AI bandwagon, and there are there are even more companies that are utilizing the services of these major AIs as the backbone for something new. 00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:18.960 How do we deal with decommissioning in the case where a company goes bankrupt uh that owns a building, or decommissioning in that 20 years, 30 years from now, there's a completely different model that no longer requires a data center. 00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:20.400 Right. 00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:37.199 So we do talk about in our planning advice um to our municipalities about discussing decommissioning, and I will tell you that decommissioning is kind of um a question amongst the planning community of is it necessary for these facilities? 00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:45.840 Because we've also seen decommissioning for other um large land use impacts like solar array farms and and and things of that. 00:39:46.159 --> 00:39:57.039 So um, but we we do recommend it and and what we do want it's more to think about again the safe shutdown of of the equipment and the removal of that equipment. 00:39:57.199 --> 00:40:03.440 Again, there's um you're talking as we know, we we do have an electronic waste collection here in Berks County. 00:40:03.519 --> 00:40:04.800 We're fortunate to have that. 00:40:05.119 --> 00:40:19.519 But there are other waste materials for this specific use that shouldn't be the responsibility of the community, the municipalities exactly to take care of when and if that use is forfeited. 00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:24.239 Um and so we talk about that again, recycling of those materials. 00:40:24.559 --> 00:40:31.039 Also talking about site restoration and thinking about the you know best management practices for stormwater and water. 00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:41.440 How can we reclaim some of that and how can we have that that that owner be responsible for that um besides being added to a brownfield list at some point? 00:40:41.679 --> 00:40:45.280 Um so yeah, that's been mentioned and discussed. 00:40:45.679 --> 00:41:00.239 Yeah, we uh in our in ordinances uh we have in place uh financial security requirements where bonds or a letter of credit is put in place for uh a hundred percent of the amount of decommissioning at present value. 00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:06.559 And in in one ordinance that I've worked with, it is uh re-evaluated every five years. 00:41:06.880 --> 00:41:08.159 That's a great idea, really. 00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:18.880 And it uses uh a technical publication, the engine engineering news record, to determine uh what is the appropriate amount to be placed for decommissioning. 00:41:19.039 --> 00:41:25.119 Uh, because it this isn't this isn't the first use or the only use where there are decommissioning requirements. 00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:35.039 In the late 90s, we used them for cell towers for the fear that we would they would be abandoned as technology changed and the municipality would be left to take them down. 00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:51.840 Uh in with uh some solar farms they're used to make sure that the surface is reclaimed because lots of times that is agricultural land and it uh should be reclaimed if if possible as as agricultural land to make

sure that the panels are are removed. 00:41:52.320 --> 00:42:09.440 And with data centers, it is important that because these are such spec so specialized that uh it's not flex space and it it needs to be able to be uh to be demolished safely, components removed, and there are also uh materials. 00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:18.400 Some of the water that's used for the closed loop system contains uh coolants, glycol-based coolants that need to be uh need some special handling. 00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:32.719 Uh so there it's for the protection of the public, not just the aesthetics, but also uh also the safety of the public uh in some cases to have decommissioning financial security in place and have it within the ordinance. 00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:39.519 So people go on to the website, uh the these are the core outlines. 00:42:39.679 --> 00:42:47.280 If you could uh take us a little bit into the document where they get that and how they might utilize it. 00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:53.440 Uh first of all, you sent this almost immediately, I believe, in April to all the municipalities. 00:42:53.840 --> 00:42:54.559 Yes, that's correct. 00:42:54.719 --> 00:43:05.360 So, yes, this is shared, uh was shared with all the municipalities when we do our required municipal planning codes review of all the ordinances. 00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:09.519 We have been referencing this if we haven't seen it in what has been prepared. 00:43:09.679 --> 00:43:18.639 Um, as Joan just pointed out about the decommissioning costs being reviewed every five years, that actually was on our advice for um the municipalities. 00:43:18.880 --> 00:43:25.599 So this is housed again on the Planning Commission's uh website under our planning advice uh page. 00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:36.000 And on that page, besides just you're able to download the PDF of the actual planning advice document, you also have the resources that we use. 00:43:38.079 --> 00:43:41.519 We're not talking about two or three websites. 00:43:41.840 --> 00:43:48.239 There are maybe twenty or more links, and you've broken them out into different categories. 00:43:48.719 --> 00:43:49.440 Yes, yes. 00:43:49.599 --> 00:44:07.599 So we have um I don't have the web page right in front of me, but um we've broken it down of like again some state local references, some out of state references again, talking about Maryland and Northern Virginia and slides that have been taken from different presentations that we've attended. 00:44:09.039 --> 00:44:13.360 But yes, that is all of that is there, and we will be regularly updating that. 00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:22.719 I don't think I know one thing like we want to make sure that we have the governor's grid standards, but then also like a reference to the governor's executive order about data centers. 00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:23.760 So yes. 00:44:24.239 --> 00:44:26.239 So I I have that in front of me. 00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:39.599 Uh the the first category, and I won't read through all of them, are

probably 10 or more links that are Pennsylvania county resources, documents, uh websites, et cetera. 00:44:40.159 --> 00:44:46.480 Then you have uh another section of Pennsylvania municipality resources. 00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:48.639 I I should point this out. 00:44:48.800 --> 00:44:54.079 In most cases, the ordinance itself will reside with the municipality. 00:44:54.480 --> 00:45:04.719 The rare exceptions would be in some of our more rural areas where there's an unincorporated municipality, and then the county in Pennsylvania is doing that work. 00:45:05.199 --> 00:45:09.280 There's also Pennsylvania State Resources, again, a number of links. 00:45:09.519 --> 00:45:12.480 You have links to Loudoun County, Virginia. 00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:17.119 Uh again, I do not want to become Loudoun County, Virginia. 00:45:17.360 --> 00:45:31.679 I've heard them talk uh extensively about the tax uh benefit for the rest of their residents and uh uh entities paying property tax, that's great, but I don't want to be the data center capital of the world. 00:45:31.840 --> 00:45:49.679 Uh we also have the American Planning Association resources, and then Penn State University has a website, Villanova University has a website, and then there are a number of environmental uh resources that are also uh listed. 00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:58.960 One of the things that I come back to uh is what we said at the beginning, and I'm gonna ask Dean to weigh in on this. 00:45:59.360 --> 00:46:13.679 Uh the utility-grade solar industry was ahead of the planning with municipalities in Pennsylvania. 00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:29.199 One of the messages, and and probably the key message I want to say to the public in Berks County, your municipality needs a good enforceable data center ordinance. 00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:39.199 To not have that in place, you're negotiating from a position of weakness and may end up with a lot of different problems. 00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:59.119 We don't need to uh identify the site, but there is a utility-grade solar uh operation up and running that uh really didn't follow best practices, created some serious issues for their neighbors. 00:46:59.280 --> 00:47:04.960 Uh it does appear, and I literally went past it on uh Saturday. 00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:09.679 Uh I was out at East Bend Manufacturing, and it looks great now. 00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:21.280 But during construction and even a couple years after construction, it still had not uh met the permitting requirements. 00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:31.280 Just explain how does that happen and help everyone understand why it's so important to get this stuff established up front, the ordinances. 00:47:31.760 --> 00:47:41.119 Yeah, well the solar project you're talking about and even data centers disturb hundreds, sometimes hundreds and hundreds of acres of earth. 00:47:41.440 --> 00:47:49.599 And the way they're constructed, sometimes they'll just go in and just strip the entire earth uh of all vegetation. 00:47:49.760 --> 00:48:08.159 Um and that's what will happen out at the site that you're referencing, and it just caused all kinds of runoff problems because obviously vegetation holds precipitation in place, and it slowly lets it release or go into the ground, um, which reduces the stormwater runoff. 00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:22.480 Uh but this site uh again stripped hundreds of acres at once, created a basically a big parking lot, uh, and uh the the runoff, the amounts of runoff that were coming off that were were very problematic. 00:48:23.360 --> 00:48:25.440 Not only to that site, but also neighbors. 00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:26.480 The adjacent farm. 00:48:26.639 --> 00:48:26.960 Yeah, neighbors. 00:48:27.440 --> 00:48:28.159 Preserved farm. 00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:29.199 Yeah. 00:48:29.440 --> 00:48:33.119 So uh those that those kind of situations are very problematic. 00:48:34.159 --> 00:48:34.480 Go ahead. 00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:55.039 I think one thing maybe to touch on is that again, uh especially with data centers, not only is the technology of how they're cooled and and coming together and and and whatnot, but lessons learned though from that solar farm project that we had is there's some processes that have been put into place. 00:48:55.360 --> 00:49:00.639 So for any um solar array that comes into the county, there should be a pre-application. 00:49:01.199 --> 00:49:05.360 Um we've recommended and we do have an adva a planning advice document for that example. 00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:07.599 It's right next to the data centers. 00:49:08.239 --> 00:49:16.880 And we've updated and modified that where we talk about um meeting with the conservation district prior to the their permit application even going in. 00:49:17.199 --> 00:49:27.199 Um we've talked about phasing development, because again, with that project they came in and just clear cut and removed the vegetation, whereas we recommend phasing that. 00:49:27.360 --> 00:49:34.320 So maybe start, okay, start one big huge section, but leave this as is for right now until you're ready to move on. 00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:37.519 Um so there's been things that we've all learned, right? 00:49:37.599 --> 00:49:40.639 Um with projects that have come in and at this scale. 00:49:41.280 --> 00:49:45.280 And being aware of pre-existing conditions, that was another issue. 00:49:45.440 --> 00:50:08.400 There was a uh propensity for flooding from one side of this road through a culvert and flooding the farmer's area, but it was few and far between because it had uh vegetation, and when they stripped that, it became a raceway. 00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:17.920 And to the extent that the farmer had to dig redig multiple wells, his wells for his dairy herd uh were fouled. 00:50:18.239 --> 00:50:24.400 Uh it can really cause problems if you don't do this properly. 00:50:24.639 --> 00:50:42.719 Yeah, and part of also when I'm on the other side of the table with any type of real estate development, whether it's

commercial or or residential, I always recommend have that staff meeting with the municipality first as part of the before you submit the plan. 00:50:43.519 --> 00:51:14.400 Spend the time and a lot less money than an engineered preliminary plan to do the concept plan and have that meeting, uh that hour meeting with the township staff and maybe a member of Borough Council or the Board of Supervisors or City Council, because they they know the area, they know what the pitfalls might be of a specific piece of property, they also uh will know uh uh what the pros and cons might be of that property and where the opposition would be and how you can address that early. 00:51:14.559 --> 00:51:22.320 That that first meeting is is so valuable that pre-application meeting is is critically, critically important. 00:51:23.199 --> 00:51:34.960 And Dean, you you um give the same advice, these large projects kind of explain it's it's similar, it's a little different relative to the community, but uh why it's important. 00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:59.840 Yeah, we we definitely advocate for uh what we call a pre-application meeting to come in, talk to us, uh lay out what you're planning and and what kind of practices you're putting on uh to control runoff, obviously, uh and we can help them move through the regulatory process and make sure that they meet the regulations that they're that they're required to. 00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:22.559 Yeah, these these projects are complicated, and when a developer, really in any large project, takes that time, it not only uh in the case of a township can help the community not deal with a lot of back and forth and concerns, it can actually save a developer money. 00:52:22.880 --> 00:52:39.199 Because if they don't do things properly and they don't know what's going on, or they propose something in an area that is just absolutely not going to fly with the conservation district, uh they're paying to go back and forth and back and forth. 00:52:39.440 --> 00:52:41.119 Engineers get paid. 00:52:41.280 --> 00:52:44.800 In the case of the township, it's engineers and and attorneys. 00:52:45.039 --> 00:52:49.519 So that is a I think an important uh piece in the process. 00:52:49.840 --> 00:53:12.559 In the time that we have left and uh a handful of minutes, I'd like uh each of you to kind of give a closing thought, a minute or so, excuse me, of what you would say uh to the public and uh to municipal leaders uh from your area of expertise. 00:53:12.880 --> 00:53:13.519 Start with Joan. 00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:15.039 Okay, thank you, Commissioner. 00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:24.480 It's data centers uh are a new use, uh, but they have been around for quite some time as as we started the program with. 00:53:24.719 --> 00:53:29.119 They're not going away, and you can't legislate them away. 00:53:29.360 --> 00:53:41.840 However, you can mitigate the impacts, and you can do that by carefully drawn ordinances, and you can do that uh in your application

of the ordinances in a way that's fair. 00:53:42.079 --> 00:53:44.159 There's going to be opposition from the public. 00:53:44.320 --> 00:53:51.599 There's a lot of public fear, there's a lot of rumors that go around on uh social media and websites. 00:53:51.920 --> 00:53:59.360 Uh there's a lot of good to the internet, and there's a lot of good to social media, but unfortunately it also spreads misconceptions and rumors. 00:53:59.679 --> 00:54:07.199 And municipal officials need to really have good open communication uh with the residents. 00:54:07.360 --> 00:54:11.280 It does a lot to build trust, and trust is key. 00:54:12.880 --> 00:54:14.239 So let's keep going here. 00:54:14.719 --> 00:54:20.559 Yeah, I just want to let your viewers know that the conservation district is very concerned about these type of development projects. 00:54:20.719 --> 00:54:24.719 However, we can't advocate for or against anything like this. 00:54:24.880 --> 00:54:35.679 We just are here to make sure that they meet the regulatory requirements and the development is done in a way that is it reduces the impact as much as we possibly can. 00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:40.000 I would just like to echo the sentiment. 00:54:40.159 --> 00:54:43.760 So the County Planning Commission welcomes your calls, your emails. 00:54:43.840 --> 00:54:50.880 You can email us at our general email box if you have any questions or concerns, we invite that um conversation. 00:54:51.039 --> 00:55:09.360 Um but I think to to kind of talk about the items or talking about a development or or potential proposals for data centers, um, as part of our role at the county, we track every land development proposal that comes into our office from the municipalities for review. 00:55:09.599 --> 00:55:19.039 Um so to check that out and to understand what is being built in Berks County, you can visit our What is Burks Building subdivision and land development dashboard. 00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:22.239 Um I think that if we can, we can share that on the screen. 00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:27.519 But again, you will find that uh right on our main webpage for the County Planning Commission. 00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:31.360 Um and so I direct you there to get some answers and understand. 00:55:31.519 --> 00:55:36.159 And if you want more answers or you have questions, please feel free to contact us. 00:55:36.719 --> 00:55:50.880 Well, thank you to our guest, uh Joan London, uh shareholder with Kozlov Stout, Dean Druckenmiller, Executive Director with the Berks County Conservation District, and Ashley Showers, Director of the Berks County Planning Commission. 00:55:51.039 --> 00:55:59.360 If you want more information from any of our guests, uh the information is up on the screen to contact any one of them. 00:55:59.679 --> 00:56:17.519 And I hope that you've learned something valuable about not just data centers, but more importantly, the process and why it is critical that every municipality in Berks County adopt an enforceable data center ordinance. 00:56:17.760 --> 00:56:26.639 I'm your host, Berks County Commissioner Christian Leinbach, thanking you for joining us for another edition of County Connection.