النص الكامل لحلقة Bas Warmerdam - Unlocking Innovation Through Childlike Thinking

about? 72 00:04:19.779 --> 00:04:22.420 Oh, sorry, I think the connection got lost a bit. 73 00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:25.490 I think you asked where from, right? 74 00:04:29.370 --> 00:04:33.709 Right, sorry. Say that again. I do apologize for the incident. 75 00:04:33.790 --> 00:04:35.470 It's pouring down with rain here, and if there's a 76 00:04:35.509 --> 00:04:38.970 few clouds, it seems to make a problem. I asked 77 00:04:39.129 --> 00:04:45.670 how you first started the realization that children actually, their 78 00:04:45.730 --> 00:04:49.920 curiosity and wonder can actually be translated into the grown-up world? 79 00:04:51.300 --> 00:04:56.990 Yeah, thanks for that question. So maybe a slightly long answer, 80 00:04:57.000 --> 00:05:00.910 but then you'll totally understand. So my background is I 81 00:05:00.949 --> 00:05:03.750 got a degree in biopharmaceutical sciences. So it's got something 82 00:05:03.769 --> 00:05:06.990 to do with medicine development. Somehow I understand math, physics, 83 00:05:07.089 --> 00:05:11.579 stuff like that. That tricked me into becoming a strategy consultant, 84 00:05:11.699 --> 00:05:15.290 which I always explained to friends. We were just hired 85 00:05:15.329 --> 00:05:18.050 by organizations who had a problem, flown over there, pretended 86 00:05:18.089 --> 00:05:21.149 we knew how to solve stuff. And for some weird reason, 87 00:05:21.189 --> 00:05:24.649 we started wearing a suit. And by the way, get 88 00:05:24.709 --> 00:05:27.819 paid way too much money. But that was sort of 89 00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:31.759 the start of my career. And somehow I ended up 90 00:05:31.899 --> 00:05:35.759 reading about, you know, kids coming up with cool inventions 91 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:39.170 and You know, in my daily work life, I was 92 00:05:39.209 --> 00:05:42.129 running around with all these suits around me, these managers 93 00:05:42.209 --> 00:05:45.389 and pretending that the whole world was complex. And on 94 00:05:45.410 --> 00:05:47.850 the other side, you had these kids coming up with 95 00:05:47.949 --> 00:05:51.769 cool stuff and they hadn't done any MBAs and haven't 96 00:05:51.790 --> 00:05:54.120 got a clue what that is. And that for me 97 00:05:54.149 --> 00:05:58.079 was really intriguing. So what fascinated me was, can I 98 00:05:58.139 --> 00:06:01.939 connect that sort of fresh thinking of kids to the 99 00:06:02.019 --> 00:06:06.709 same complex problems we see in organizations? And I just 100 00:06:06.730 --> 00:06:09.189 wanted to try that. And about 10 years ago, I 101 00:06:09.230 --> 00:06:13.230 just started experimenting with that. And since then, I have 102 00:06:13.410 --> 00:06:14.459 way too much fun with it. 103 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:18.800 It's almost illegal, isn't it? You have too much fun. 104 00:06:18.810 --> 00:06:20.449 You think, I'm getting paid for this as well? This 105 00:06:20.540 --> 00:06:21.079 is crazy. 106 00:06:21.699 --> 00:06:23.639 It's brilliant, the

combination. 107 00:06:24.740 --> 00:06:26.699 I love it. Do you have children of your own? 108 00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:31.300 Yeah, we've got two kids. They're 14 and 16 as 109 00:06:31.319 --> 00:06:33.939 we speak. But when I kicked this off, they were 110 00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:34.620 two and four. 111 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:34.699 Oh. 112 00:06:35.819 --> 00:06:38.519 Perfect ages yeah they joined the whole journey so far. 113 00:06:38.420 --> 00:06:42.300 Yeah that's beautiful so i've got grandchildren who are one 114 00:06:42.459 --> 00:06:46.000 two and just four um and the one that's four 115 00:06:46.050 --> 00:06:47.910 year old i remember her distinctly at the age of 116 00:06:47.930 --> 00:06:52.449 about uh just past two she was like 24 25 117 00:06:52.449 --> 00:06:55.189 months old saying to me when i was like come 118 00:06:55.209 --> 00:06:57.209 on chop chop we've got to go we've got to 119 00:06:57.230 --> 00:06:58.910 miss this thing you're going to be doing the gluing 120 00:06:58.949 --> 00:07:00.389 and the sticking and it's going to be fun and 121 00:07:00.430 --> 00:07:02.790 come on you need to and she went nanny gee 122 00:07:03.819 --> 00:07:08.649 calm down yeah I was like out of the mouths 123 00:07:08.730 --> 00:07:12.269 of babes and I'm like Lila you're right nanny will 124 00:07:12.290 --> 00:07:16.790 calm down there's no stress here whatsoever and since then 125 00:07:16.949 --> 00:07:20.629 and so many other times previous to that I mean 126 00:07:20.689 --> 00:07:22.389 I used to be a primary school teacher so I've 127 00:07:22.449 --> 00:07:25.870 heard children tell me things that I've gone I've been 128 00:07:25.910 --> 00:07:29.819 gobsmacked of like where the hell did that come from 129 00:07:29.839 --> 00:07:32.829 how do you know this this stuff I mean, we 130 00:07:32.870 --> 00:07:36.550 had one guy in the class who had ADHD and 131 00:07:36.610 --> 00:07:41.730 various other letters after his name. And so he was, what, eight. 132 00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:46.740 And the only way that we could get him to 133 00:07:46.860 --> 00:07:50.139 sit down or do anything was get him to talk. 134 00:07:50.220 --> 00:07:54.689 He was so intelligent. His talking was ten times brighter than, 135 00:07:55.019 --> 00:07:58.290 you know, most adults. But he couldn't sit. He didn't 136 00:07:58.329 --> 00:08:01.430 have the ability, capacity to sit. So if he did 137 00:08:01.470 --> 00:08:03.730 an exam, it was with a video camera. If he 138 00:08:04.850 --> 00:08:06.529 had too much energy, we had to running around the 139 00:08:06.769 --> 00:08:09.310 sports field. But one of the things he said, I 140 00:08:09.310 --> 00:08:11.879 don't know if I can remember it. He started a 141 00:08:11.939 --> 00:08:14.240 story because all the others were writing their stories. And 142 00:08:14.259 --> 00:08:15.860 I said, right, off you go. What's your story? What's 143 00:08:15.879 --> 00:08:18.060 the beginning? What's your first sentence? I'll write it down 144 00:08:18.100 --> 00:08:20.300 for you. And he gave me this sentence that just 145 00:08:20.379 --> 00:08:24.120 blew my mind. It was, I wish I'd written it 146 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:27.029 down now. It was about a dream and closing your 147 00:08:27.189 --> 00:08:30.269 eyes and seeing another world. and imagining what it might 148 00:08:30.290 --> 00:08:34.330 be like to step into that world. And it was poetic. 149 00:08:34.490 --> 00:08:37.210 It was just so stunning that all the other children 150 00:08:37.250 --> 00:08:41.100 kind of went, what? You know, it was like, where 151 00:08:41.139 --> 00:08:43.659 did that come from? And we eventually made the whole 152 00:08:43.720 --> 00:08:48.419 story out. But it's understanding that there is this genius 153 00:08:48.460 --> 00:08:50.720 that's locked inside all of these children, and yet we're 154 00:08:50.759 --> 00:08:52.889 the ones telling them, this is how you do it, 155 00:08:53.820 --> 00:08:57.529 rather than letting them explore maybe another way to do it, 156 00:08:57.620 --> 00:09:01.200 whatever it is. is um and i remember at the 157 00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:04.080 time it was a classic um maths thing it's like 158 00:09:04.100 --> 00:09:05.940 well you can do uh two plus two this way 159 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:07.019 you could do it that way you could do it 160 00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:08.399 this way you could do it this way it's like 161 00:09:08.440 --> 00:09:10.759 wow let's blind them with science let them just find 162 00:09:10.940 --> 00:09:15.110 out how to you know have numeracy in their soul 163 00:09:15.750 --> 00:09:19.490 um i'm gonna stop talking now so what's when your 164 00:09:19.549 --> 00:09:22.529 children were young did you have any do you have 165 00:09:22.549 --> 00:09:24.620 you got any stories or have you got any concept 166 00:09:24.750 --> 00:09:28.710 of their genius and their understanding of life as they 167 00:09:28.730 --> 00:09:29.330 were growing up? 168 00:09:31.110 --> 00:09:34.409 Well, that's a good question that they kept surprising me, 169 00:09:34.429 --> 00:09:41.279 but especially linked to the way more important things in life. 170 00:09:41.299 --> 00:09:44.519 So it's similar to the example you just gave. So 171 00:09:44.559 --> 00:09:48.559 just relax, you know, have some fun, do some good stuff. 172 00:09:49.419 --> 00:09:54.519 Everything will be okay. And, and, and, More broadly, I've 173 00:09:54.590 --> 00:09:57.769 worked with more than 20,000 kids now around the globe. 174 00:09:57.889 --> 00:10:00.970 And what I notice is that they they have this 175 00:10:01.269 --> 00:10:05.240 cool view on things because they haven't worked in a 176 00:10:05.289 --> 00:10:08.460 task force before or they're not constrained or thinking about 177 00:10:08.669 --> 00:10:13.279 paradigm shifts about energy transition or whatever and that's just 178 00:10:13.379 --> 00:10:17.220 really cool and I heard you say

that the term 179 00:10:17.539 --> 00:10:19.700 genius a couple of times and it depends on how 180 00:10:19.720 --> 00:10:22.730 you define it or the definition, et cetera. But what 181 00:10:22.750 --> 00:10:25.789 I really noticed in the 10 or 12 years I've 182 00:10:25.809 --> 00:10:28.899 been doing this, it's this really cool combination of this 183 00:10:29.019 --> 00:10:32.580 fresh thinking of kids combined with the expertise of professionals. 184 00:10:32.679 --> 00:10:36.600 So for me, it's not about sort of genius. It's 185 00:10:36.919 --> 00:10:40.299 coming from a different perspective. And then something happens if 186 00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:44.070 you combine it with professional expertise. And that's where the 187 00:10:44.110 --> 00:10:44.730 magic happens. 188 00:10:46.470 --> 00:10:48.870 So what was it like the first time you took 189 00:10:48.909 --> 00:10:49.769 this into a company? 190 00:10:52.169 --> 00:10:59.220 Very exciting and a bit nerve-wracking and everything combined. Because basically, 191 00:10:59.340 --> 00:11:01.720 you know, the way I did it then, and it's 192 00:11:01.740 --> 00:11:04.080 still sort of 80% in the same way, but the 193 00:11:04.120 --> 00:11:06.350 way I did it is, you know, step one is 194 00:11:06.509 --> 00:11:09.570 understanding the complexity of the problem of that organization. Just, 195 00:11:09.610 --> 00:11:12.850 you know, as professionals among each other, explain it in 196 00:11:12.870 --> 00:11:16.409 the terminology you use to explain it. Step two is 197 00:11:16.450 --> 00:11:19.909 in translating it into something that kids can understand. So 198 00:11:19.929 --> 00:11:23.629 just writing a story about it in the language kids 199 00:11:23.649 --> 00:11:26.080 can understand, but also in a context kids can understand. 200 00:11:26.100 --> 00:11:30.779 So for instance, you have a big reorganizational challenge in 201 00:11:30.820 --> 00:11:33.279 a bank and you just transfer it into a cookie 202 00:11:33.320 --> 00:11:36.039 factory and you have the same dynamics, but suddenly it's 203 00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:39.720 in a context that's way more appealing to kids. And 204 00:11:39.759 --> 00:11:43.840 then step three is working with the kids. And my 205 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:46.570 idea was, okay, that's it. So the first time I 206 00:11:46.610 --> 00:11:48.389 did it, this was the way I did it. And 207 00:11:48.409 --> 00:11:51.090 the idea was, okay, kids come up with cool stuff. 208 00:11:51.690 --> 00:11:55.360 I just hand that over to the client and that's it. 209 00:11:56.179 --> 00:11:59.279 And what I noticed is that's not it. You need 210 00:11:59.320 --> 00:12:02.399 to have an additional translational step. So you need to 211 00:12:03.139 --> 00:12:07.019 sort of look at these ideas of kids as sparks 212 00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:10.850 or you know, things that are intriguing, but they're not 213 00:12:10.889 --> 00:12:13.269 complete answers. So you have to translate that back into 214 00:12:13.309 --> 00:12:17.809 something that also a professional can understand again. So I 215 00:12:17.830 --> 00:12:21.190 did it once and then recognized that, added that step, 216 00:12:21.590 --> 00:12:22.909 and I'm still doing it in the same way. 217 00:12:23.909 --> 00:12:25.730 So where do you get your kids from? 218 00:12:28.669 --> 00:12:30.940 I get that asked quite a lot, and I have 219 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:34.519 different answers depending on how well I know who I'm 220 00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:37.750 talking to, but I give the sort of, Okay version 221 00:12:37.789 --> 00:12:40.330 for it. No, no. 222 00:12:41.029 --> 00:12:44.990 You're not like the child catcher from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. 223 00:12:45.129 --> 00:12:47.769 That's one of the angles I love to play with, 224 00:12:47.830 --> 00:12:51.029 but it can also be a bit weird. But the 225 00:12:51.070 --> 00:12:53.590 way we do it, we work with school classes. And 226 00:12:53.610 --> 00:12:56.850 one is, you know, in the countries where we've been 227 00:12:56.870 --> 00:12:59.309 working for a longer time, one of them is being 228 00:12:59.350 --> 00:13:01.190 the Netherlands. We have a big network, so we can 229 00:13:01.210 --> 00:13:03.570 just approach schools. Hey, this is cool. You want to 230 00:13:03.590 --> 00:13:07.710 participate again? By the way, when we work with kids 231 00:13:07.750 --> 00:13:11.080 we teach them problem solving skills that's our way in 232 00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:13.820 so we teach them problem solving skills based on you 233 00:13:13.860 --> 00:13:16.220 know all the management books we read and we get 234 00:13:16.279 --> 00:13:18.620 from the you know the big firms but then just 235 00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:22.480 translate it into something that makes sense to kids um 236 00:13:23.240 --> 00:13:25.860 so one is the big network uh two which is 237 00:13:25.879 --> 00:13:28.899 really cool if we work for an organization we always 238 00:13:29.210 --> 00:13:31.690 ask the people there who has kids in the age 239 00:13:31.730 --> 00:13:35.620 range of nine to twelve so yeah an organization in London, 240 00:13:35.629 --> 00:13:38.460 a cool who has these kids in his age range, 241 00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:40.240 where do they go to school? Can you approach the 242 00:13:40.259 --> 00:13:43.799 school and do they want to participate? And the third 243 00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:48.379 one is just, you know, just called outreach. But once 244 00:13:48.419 --> 00:13:51.200 we approach a school in whatever way we do it, 245 00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:53.860 eight out of 10 of the schools want to participate. 246 00:13:54.980 --> 00:13:57.500 And what we get back, the reason why is one 247 00:13:57.580 --> 00:14:00.360 teaching problem solving skills, two is working on a real 248 00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:04.500 life challenge. There's no solution there yet. It's an open 249 00:14:04.539 --> 00:14:08.509 question because otherwise we

don't have to be there. We 250 00:14:08.549 --> 00:14:11.990 take over the school class for a morning so the 251 00:14:12.009 --> 00:14:14.830 teacher can do something else or view their kids from 252 00:14:14.850 --> 00:14:21.029 a different perspective. And it's fun. It's chaos. And that's 253 00:14:21.049 --> 00:14:23.850 why we get in. Yeah. 254 00:14:24.250 --> 00:14:27.009 What I like is that it's a win-win-win all round, 255 00:14:27.090 --> 00:14:28.590 isn't it? It's a win for the teachers. It's a 256 00:14:28.610 --> 00:14:31.370 win for the children because they're getting these additional skills 257 00:14:31.409 --> 00:14:35.299 they probably hadn't got. at a real-world level, and it's 258 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:39.039 a win for your client as well. I love that. 259 00:14:39.580 --> 00:14:41.799 That's the way the world should go around, really, isn't it? 260 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:46.629 Yeah. That would be great if you can come up 261 00:14:46.669 --> 00:14:52.409 with more of these types of concepts. At the same time, 262 00:14:52.789 --> 00:14:55.750 you're making a living and doing cool stuff. 263 00:14:56.470 --> 00:14:58.750 One of our members has got a really cool system 264 00:14:58.789 --> 00:15:03.710 in place where he sells sales training into businesses. and 265 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:07.149 the money or some of the money that he uses 266 00:15:07.309 --> 00:15:11.029 goes to a graphic novel that he's got that he 267 00:15:11.090 --> 00:15:14.169 teaches in schools which in essence is to teach the 268 00:15:14.210 --> 00:15:18.000 children that they are worthy they are valuable they are 269 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:22.000 you know so self-worth and then he teaches teenagers to 270 00:15:22.059 --> 00:15:25.480 teach the younger children yeah so it's this what goes 271 00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:27.620 around comes around but The people that are getting a 272 00:15:27.639 --> 00:15:31.259 sales training, yay, getting sales training is awesome and they 273 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:33.700 all get to know, but also they realize they're contributing 274 00:15:33.799 --> 00:15:36.460 to this wonderful thing that's going on at that school. 275 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:41.549 So it's a kind of a win-win-win or win-win-win, whatever 276 00:15:41.570 --> 00:15:44.029 which way you look at it. And I think that's 277 00:15:44.070 --> 00:15:46.909 the way, for me, businesses should be going in the future, 278 00:15:46.929 --> 00:15:52.049 not necessarily involving children per se, but creating something that 279 00:15:52.090 --> 00:15:55.169 you're not just selling the product, which is, oh, we'll 280 00:15:55.220 --> 00:15:55.980 solve your problems. 281 00:15:56.320 --> 00:15:56.440 Yeah. 282 00:15:56.850 --> 00:16:00.429 But it's that how you solve problems and how you 283 00:16:00.470 --> 00:16:05.259 can accommodate and support another entity outside of that. So, 284 00:16:05.320 --> 00:16:08.820 for example, when we talk about collaboration, it starts with 285 00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:11.000 three as far as we're concerned. Three is the magic number. 286 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:15.590 When you get three, five, 10, 20 people in that collaboration, 287 00:16:15.889 --> 00:16:16.990 when you get to the end of it and you 288 00:16:17.029 --> 00:16:19.490 review and go back, you can see why it works 289 00:16:19.529 --> 00:16:22.039 so well. And then you replicate it and you do 290 00:16:22.059 --> 00:16:23.700 it again and maybe you do it for a charity 291 00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:25.480 or maybe you do it for a new market or 292 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:27.419 maybe you do it and you gift it to somebody 293 00:16:27.460 --> 00:16:29.220 because this is how it works. We know what makes 294 00:16:29.259 --> 00:16:31.360 it work now. And it's like it has a life 295 00:16:31.419 --> 00:16:33.759 of its own and it then moves on. I think 296 00:16:34.100 --> 00:16:38.399 if businesses come together now, you know, to collaborate and 297 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:41.539 to create things that weren't there before, it's thinking about 298 00:16:41.580 --> 00:16:42.799 business in a different way. 299 00:16:43.340 --> 00:16:47.080 Yeah. No, I totally agree. And, you know, linked to 300 00:16:47.100 --> 00:16:50.909 the example you mentioned regarding collaboration is you We recently 301 00:16:50.929 --> 00:16:55.149 did a project that had an element of collaboration in it. Basically, 302 00:16:55.169 --> 00:16:57.549 it came down to you had these two managers of 303 00:16:57.570 --> 00:17:00.840 these two departments and they were going like this. We 304 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:03.059 had to solve that. At least it was one part 305 00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:07.660 of the puzzle. What we did is we got classes 306 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:10.579 involved where their own kids were going to school and 307 00:17:10.619 --> 00:17:14.039 we had these managers coming in at these sessions. I 308 00:17:14.059 --> 00:17:17.890 made the translation about the actual problem. wrote them in 309 00:17:17.930 --> 00:17:21.009 the story, but gave them different names. So the kids 310 00:17:21.029 --> 00:17:24.009 didn't know who was who, and only the managers knew. 311 00:17:24.829 --> 00:17:27.609 And then you had these kids reflecting on their behavior 312 00:17:27.630 --> 00:17:30.339 and how they could do things different. And one of 313 00:17:30.380 --> 00:17:33.559 the managers afterwards came to me and said, we actually 314 00:17:33.799 --> 00:17:37.180 changed into humans again. And it was such a nice phrase, 315 00:17:37.220 --> 00:17:42.009 because suddenly they sort of took up that professional thing. And, 316 00:17:42.410 --> 00:17:46.250 you know, at home, they're totally different. And This way 317 00:17:46.289 --> 00:17:48.609 of thinking just does that to them. And at the 318 00:17:48.650 --> 00:17:52.150 same time, these kids are proud because they are working 319 00:17:52.210 --> 00:17:55.660 on

something that we couldn't solve yet. And they're having fun. 320 00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:59.799 And so that's the win-win-win that I love most. You 321 00:17:59.839 --> 00:18:02.019 see these professionals opening up. Sorry, go ahead. 322 00:18:02.339 --> 00:18:03.720 No, I was just going to say, I think in 323 00:18:03.779 --> 00:18:06.119 my experience, when you go into the corporate world, there's 324 00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:09.690 a lot of people being very defensive and sticking to 325 00:18:09.730 --> 00:18:12.990 their ground and won't want to give an inch. And 326 00:18:13.329 --> 00:18:15.609 I think if you put that third element in there 327 00:18:15.670 --> 00:18:19.750 of the children, as you say, they become human, don't they? 328 00:18:19.930 --> 00:18:23.220 It's a way of looking at the world without having 329 00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:29.339 to be this uptight, strong, independent leader. They can actually go, well, 330 00:18:29.380 --> 00:18:33.000 I'm not really sure. I don't understand that bit, you know, 331 00:18:33.660 --> 00:18:35.930 which is what reality is. There's nobody at the top 332 00:18:35.970 --> 00:18:39.700 of the tree that knows everything. Yeah. um but it's 333 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:43.940 being able to to say ah i don't really yeah 334 00:18:43.980 --> 00:18:47.460 can you help me with that bit yeah and to 335 00:18:47.500 --> 00:18:49.869 be honest that's why you are a leader isn't it 336 00:18:49.910 --> 00:18:52.130 it's because you don't need to know all the answers 337 00:18:52.150 --> 00:18:53.670 you've got specialists around you that. 338 00:18:53.609 --> 00:18:56.990 Can help you yeah we for instance we we also 339 00:18:57.049 --> 00:19:01.609 do uh you know sessions with managers only or professionals 340 00:19:01.670 --> 00:19:04.339 only so there are no kids involved we we labeled 341 00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:07.640 that thinking like a child for professionals and Before the summit, 342 00:19:07.819 --> 00:19:10.779 I was in the financial district in London working with 343 00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:16.420 two clients there. And just imagine having 20, 30, 40 344 00:19:16.420 --> 00:19:18.940 professionals in the room. And I was just telling them 345 00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:20.839 my story. You know, this is the way I work. 346 00:19:20.900 --> 00:19:22.799 I work for big clients, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, 347 00:19:22.819 --> 00:19:26.960 this is the way it works. And then I challenged them, 348 00:19:26.980 --> 00:19:30.430 you know, just write down the most complex problem you're 349 00:19:30.470 --> 00:19:33.500 currently working on. No matter the complexity. So you had 350 00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:36.660 these big M & A things, governance, you know, the 351 00:19:36.680 --> 00:19:41.220 whole management lingo comes by. Yeah. And then share that 352 00:19:41.289 --> 00:19:43.569 with each other. So that already gives you an idea 353 00:19:43.609 --> 00:19:46.549 of what's going on in the room. That's already very insightful, 354 00:19:46.589 --> 00:19:48.829 but that's not the main goal. But what I did 355 00:19:48.869 --> 00:19:53.079 then is, okay. in 30 minutes time this whole group 356 00:19:53.140 --> 00:19:55.000 is going to change into 10 year olds so how 357 00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:58.279 would you now explain your problem you just presented in 358 00:19:58.319 --> 00:19:59.960 a way that a 10 year old can understand and 359 00:20:00.019 --> 00:20:03.339 is willing and able to help you solve it and 360 00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:05.160 i give them examples on how we do that and 361 00:20:05.180 --> 00:20:07.349 then they start working on it and the reason why 362 00:20:07.369 --> 00:20:11.630 i'm telling it because you're triggering me with the way 363 00:20:11.710 --> 00:20:18.009 professionals sometimes act. And we labeled that terminal seriousness, which 364 00:20:18.109 --> 00:20:21.730 I see quite often in organizations. And this thinking like 365 00:20:21.769 --> 00:20:25.049 a child is sort of the medicine against it because 366 00:20:25.069 --> 00:20:26.829 you really have to get to the core of what's 367 00:20:26.890 --> 00:20:30.170 going on without the whole mumbo jumbo with terms like 368 00:20:30.210 --> 00:20:34.019 governance and whatever. And then you also get to a point, 369 00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:37.000 this is a part I don't understand. And I always 370 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:41.569 emphasize that's okay. But don't pretend you know what's going on, 371 00:20:41.630 --> 00:20:44.789 but just say you don't know what's going on because 372 00:20:44.809 --> 00:20:48.069 that will make it way easier to solve it. And 373 00:20:48.109 --> 00:20:51.059 that's fun. And then you see people opening up. It's like, yeah, 374 00:20:51.539 --> 00:20:53.880 it's fun to sort of explain it to a 10-year-old, 375 00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:57.519 play with it, and they sort of start working on solutions, 376 00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:00.740 but then with a smile. And that's always what I love. 377 00:21:01.059 --> 00:21:02.900 Everyone kind of relaxes a little bit then, don't they? 378 00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:05.559 Because they're allowed to go, I don't understand that bit. 379 00:21:05.799 --> 00:21:10.220 Yeah, yeah. I remember. I also don't understand everything. So, 380 00:21:10.369 --> 00:21:13.789 and that's, that's, that's human, but don't sort of play, 381 00:21:14.109 --> 00:21:17.349 pretend you know it. And then we got some feedback 382 00:21:17.369 --> 00:21:20.970 from those sessions and you had a couple of those 383 00:21:21.009 --> 00:21:24.569 professionals stated. Now I finally understand what they're working on 384 00:21:26.329 --> 00:21:27.690 before they sort of pretend it. 385 00:21:27.710 --> 00:21:32.150 I have a similar scenario where when I first went 386 00:21:32.250 --> 00:21:36.509 into the business world, after I'd been a teacher, um 387 00:21:36.809 --> 00:21:38.710 i went to a meeting uh we were having a 388

00:21:38.779 --> 00:21:42.099 coach and we went to a group coaching session and 389 00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:43.440 i was sat there and the guy at the front 390 00:21:43.460 --> 00:21:46.400 there was about me one other lady and about 15 391 00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:49.519 guys around this massive big table and the guy at 392 00:21:49.539 --> 00:21:52.099 the front was sharing different stuff with us and said 393 00:21:52.140 --> 00:21:53.920 right today we're going to be talking about kpis i'm 394 00:21:53.940 --> 00:21:56.680 going to be doing this and and i'm like uh 395 00:21:56.740 --> 00:21:59.779 kpi what's the kpi i didn't so like and everyone 396 00:21:59.799 --> 00:22:01.180 else seemed to know what it was and i'm like 397 00:22:01.400 --> 00:22:03.359 oh i'll be the idiot in the room excuse me 398 00:22:04.039 --> 00:22:06.529 can you tell me what kpi is the key performance 399 00:22:06.589 --> 00:22:09.930 indicator I'm like oh okay good good good good right 400 00:22:09.970 --> 00:22:12.059 right right right and as I sort of sat back 401 00:22:12.099 --> 00:22:14.460 the guy sitting dead opposite me around this massive table 402 00:22:14.500 --> 00:22:19.359 was like don't you know that and I wasn't made 403 00:22:19.380 --> 00:22:20.960 to feel that this big and I was like oh 404 00:22:20.980 --> 00:22:22.960 okay sorry I didn't I didn't know I had to 405 00:22:23.059 --> 00:22:25.539 ask and then the guy over there went I didn't 406 00:22:25.619 --> 00:22:28.660 know yeah but he was not brave enough to ask 407 00:22:28.680 --> 00:22:32.359 the question so it's really strange that there was this ridicule. 408 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:34.329 So if imagine if you're in a boardroom and there's, 409 00:22:34.410 --> 00:22:36.289 you know, somebody that's going to ridicule you for going, 410 00:22:36.410 --> 00:22:39.470 I don't know something. So how many people are staying 411 00:22:39.529 --> 00:22:43.549 silent the whole time? But when you give them permission 412 00:22:43.609 --> 00:22:45.970 to think like a child, you're allowed to ask questions 413 00:22:46.059 --> 00:22:48.759 and allowed to, or even have the children ask those questions. 414 00:22:48.779 --> 00:22:50.440 I'm glad they asked that because I didn't know what 415 00:22:50.460 --> 00:22:51.039 that was either. 416 00:22:51.619 --> 00:22:55.200 Yeah. Yeah. Exactly that. And, you know, I see that 417 00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:58.869 happening in the classroom. So, So just sort of split 418 00:22:58.910 --> 00:23:01.609 two things. So one, we have consulting kids projects. That's 419 00:23:01.670 --> 00:23:03.690 where we work with kids. And we have the thinking 420 00:23:03.730 --> 00:23:06.640 like a child for professionals. And that's without kids. But 421 00:23:06.660 --> 00:23:09.920 that first consulting kids project, when we're in the classroom, 422 00:23:09.940 --> 00:23:11.779 we take these clients to the classroom. And then you 423 00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:16.019 see this interaction between kids and clients. And they ask stuff. 424 00:23:16.140 --> 00:23:19.319 And then sometimes you see a professional reacting, you know, 425 00:23:19.339 --> 00:23:22.490 taking five minutes for an answer. And then you see 426 00:23:22.509 --> 00:23:25.650 that same little hand going up. But what do you mean? Yeah. 427 00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:30.140 And that's cool because they have to get way more 428 00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:33.640 to the core of it. And once we kick off 429 00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:36.650 a consulting kids project, the first step is understanding what's 430 00:23:36.690 --> 00:23:39.869 going on. So in parallel to what you just mentioned 431 00:23:39.890 --> 00:23:42.769 with the KPIs, I have this client, I have these 432 00:23:42.930 --> 00:23:44.950 nine managers in a suit sitting in front of me. 433 00:23:45.470 --> 00:23:47.529 And they asked me, can you help us set up 434 00:23:47.549 --> 00:23:50.309 the governance for this and this? And I said, of course, 435 00:23:50.950 --> 00:23:54.380 really cool. But can somebody please explain what governance is? 436 00:23:54.440 --> 00:23:58.109 Because if I find something vague, that's it. And then 437 00:23:58.130 --> 00:24:00.009 you see these nine guys in front of me. They 438 00:24:00.049 --> 00:24:02.450 came up with nine different definitions. 439 00:24:02.750 --> 00:24:03.650 Whoa. 440 00:24:03.690 --> 00:24:05.779 So the first step is understanding what the hell is 441 00:24:05.799 --> 00:24:10.230 going on. And I can ask that in a nice 442 00:24:10.299 --> 00:24:12.680 way because I just say, I have to explain it 443 00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:16.099 to a 10-year-old. And suddenly they're open to discussing what 444 00:24:16.140 --> 00:24:19.420 it's really about. And that's the same dynamic that we 445 00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:22.900 see happening in those sessions, thinking like a child. You 446 00:24:22.940 --> 00:24:26.140 can't use a term governance to a 10-year-old. So explain 447 00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:31.990 what it is. You can't use strategic alignment to explain 448 00:24:32.009 --> 00:24:35.230 what it is. Yes. That's the way it works. 449 00:24:35.269 --> 00:24:39.250 I'm a bit like that. When people use technical jargon 450 00:24:39.309 --> 00:24:42.759 or any kind of jargon or any acronym, it just, 451 00:24:43.740 --> 00:24:47.140 talk in English, please. Just, you know, as you say, 452 00:24:47.180 --> 00:24:48.759 keep it. And I say, if you're going to pitch 453 00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:53.039 to me, like, you know, the infamous BNI 60-second pitch, 454 00:24:53.059 --> 00:24:57.109 those kind of things, people will pitch to me. And 455 00:24:57.150 --> 00:24:59.259 it means nothing. So one time I was at a 456 00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:03.440 meeting many, many, many years ago, and I was a 457 00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:06.099 visitor at this meeting. It might have been Chamber of 458 00:25:06.140 --> 00:25:09.079 Commerce or something. And somebody

was doing a presentation. And 459 00:25:09.160 --> 00:25:12.039 for 10 or 15 minutes, he was just holding court. 460 00:25:12.200 --> 00:25:14.470 And I sat there and I'm interested and I'm really listening. 461 00:25:14.609 --> 00:25:20.269 And I just couldn't get what he was saying. And 462 00:25:20.309 --> 00:25:21.950 at the end, I thought, I don't know what he 463 00:25:21.990 --> 00:25:23.910 does or who he is. And he hasn't even mentioned 464 00:25:23.930 --> 00:25:26.880 his name. So in the end, any questions? And everyone 465 00:25:26.920 --> 00:25:28.960 else was like, they just wanted to get away. And 466 00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:32.180 I'm like, yeah, who are you and what do you do? 467 00:25:33.069 --> 00:25:35.390 And I felt embarrassed. I was saying it out loud, 468 00:25:35.450 --> 00:25:37.930 but everyone else was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I didn't 469 00:25:37.950 --> 00:25:41.029 realise it. And this poor man, who I'd kind of embarrassed, 470 00:25:41.069 --> 00:25:42.569 but at the same time, if you don't tell him, 471 00:25:43.890 --> 00:25:46.529 he's never going to find out what the pomp that 472 00:25:46.569 --> 00:25:48.519 he had at the front of the room meant absolutely 473 00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:51.920 nothing to 90% of the people there. So what a 474 00:25:51.940 --> 00:25:54.000 waste of time he'd been doing every time he'd gone 475 00:25:54.059 --> 00:25:58.619 networking or doing Anything like that? It's crazy. 476 00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:03.200 I always love to stress to professionals, but then in 477 00:26:03.220 --> 00:26:06.019 a way with a nice, polite smile. But it's just, 478 00:26:06.420 --> 00:26:08.519 if you can't explain it to a 10-year-old, you don't 479 00:26:08.579 --> 00:26:11.339 understand it well enough. And that's okay. But again, be 480 00:26:11.380 --> 00:26:15.329 honest about it. I wrote a small book. It's only 481 00:26:15.369 --> 00:26:18.250 in Dutch, so no commercial here or anything. But if 482 00:26:18.630 --> 00:26:21.630 I translate the title to English, it's called Little Consultants. 483 00:26:21.990 --> 00:26:25.369 And it's basically explaining the way we do stuff. But 484 00:26:25.430 --> 00:26:29.069 I challenged myself, you know, what do I find really complex? 485 00:26:29.509 --> 00:26:34.990 And for me, that's about quantum mechanics, specifically quantum entanglement. 486 00:26:35.009 --> 00:26:37.589 So I started reading up about that. And I set 487 00:26:37.609 --> 00:26:40.490 up a story how I can explain quantum entanglement to 488 00:26:40.539 --> 00:26:43.299 kids so they can think along about how you can 489 00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:46.799 apply that. And I always give that example to organizations. 490 00:26:47.180 --> 00:26:49.460 You know, if this can be explained to a 10-year-old, 491 00:26:49.779 --> 00:26:52.819 then an organizational challenge is easy. Again, if you can't, 492 00:26:52.940 --> 00:26:55.539 then you don't understand it well enough. You know, that's 493 00:26:55.579 --> 00:26:58.140 just a fun way to sort of get them on board. 494 00:26:58.640 --> 00:26:58.920 Yeah. 495 00:26:59.299 --> 00:27:00.160 And get them going. 496 00:27:00.539 --> 00:27:02.920 And we are so used to making ourselves sound more 497 00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:04.829 important by using all that. 498 00:27:05.369 --> 00:27:05.660 Yeah. 499 00:27:05.789 --> 00:27:08.789 That hides everything. One of our members has written an 500 00:27:08.849 --> 00:27:11.789 alternative theory to the Big Bang. And he said, would 501 00:27:11.829 --> 00:27:13.990 you like to read it? And I was like, oh, 502 00:27:14.069 --> 00:27:18.210 I don't know. I said, is it in English? He went, yeah, Gio, 503 00:27:18.230 --> 00:27:20.450 I've written it just for you. It's definitely in English. 504 00:27:20.710 --> 00:27:22.769 So he sent it to me. And chapter by chapter, 505 00:27:22.809 --> 00:27:25.339 I got every single bit that was in there because 506 00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:27.119 it was written as though it was for a child. 507 00:27:27.140 --> 00:27:29.720 I mean, not that he specifically did it, but he 508 00:27:29.779 --> 00:27:32.029 got that if people can't read it and understand it 509 00:27:32.089 --> 00:27:34.160 like that, there's no point writing the damn thing. 510 00:27:34.180 --> 00:27:34.910 Yeah. 511 00:27:35.349 --> 00:27:38.329 And it was fascinating. I mean, you would absolutely love it. 512 00:27:38.809 --> 00:27:45.509 It's called Xerons, the answer to absolutely everything. But yeah, 513 00:27:45.630 --> 00:27:49.180 and his name is, oh gosh, it's gone from me. 514 00:27:49.940 --> 00:27:51.779 My head is cotton wool today. If I think about it, 515 00:27:51.779 --> 00:27:52.420 I'll come back to that. 516 00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:55.019 Yeah, no, if you share it later. Yeah, I will. 517 00:27:55.779 --> 00:27:58.200 I don't want anyone to listen to go and buy 518 00:27:58.220 --> 00:28:01.339 it because it's just fascinating, absolutely fascinating. But I know, 519 00:28:01.420 --> 00:28:04.529 so where do you see this going? Now you're obviously 520 00:28:04.549 --> 00:28:08.200 going out there and you're talking to bigger businesses and 521 00:28:08.220 --> 00:28:11.490 you're giving this, you know, so they've had you for 522 00:28:11.509 --> 00:28:13.890 the first, we've got this problem, this man's come and 523 00:28:13.910 --> 00:28:16.250 solved it, he's used kids to solve it. Do you 524 00:28:16.289 --> 00:28:20.509 see them using that? that they've just learned from you 525 00:28:20.829 --> 00:28:23.369 with children again? Or do you see them learning a 526 00:28:23.430 --> 00:28:27.329 different way of solving their problems? Or do you, how 527 00:28:27.349 --> 00:28:29.470 do you see this evolving for the next sort of 528 00:28:29.470 --> 00:28:30.660 10 years? Where do you want to take it? 529 00:28:31.490 --> 00:28:34.789 Yeah, for me, there are basically two elements in that 530 00:28:34.990 --> 00:28:37.539

question that you're mentioning. So one is if you look 531 00:28:37.579 --> 00:28:41.720 at one individual client, you know, it's first an introduction 532 00:28:41.779 --> 00:28:44.599 to the way we do it. And we need to 533 00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:47.859 help them because those two translational steps are fairly difficult. 534 00:28:48.099 --> 00:28:52.180 difficult for professionals so for clients we help them with 535 00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:54.700 a couple of projects and if they do a certain 536 00:28:54.769 --> 00:28:56.869 volume then we can sort of transfer how you do 537 00:28:56.900 --> 00:29:00.690 that and those sessions thinking like a child is really 538 00:29:00.750 --> 00:29:04.230 to sort of prime professionals to start thinking like that 539 00:29:04.349 --> 00:29:08.069 on their own on their own individual small big medium-sized 540 00:29:08.349 --> 00:29:12.950 problems so ideally sort of infect the whole organization to 541 00:29:13.900 --> 00:29:17.539 less terminal seriousness and solve some stuff and get some 542 00:29:17.579 --> 00:29:20.240 energy in there. If I look at the bigger picture 543 00:29:20.420 --> 00:29:24.240 for myself, you know, just dreaming out loud, we're currently 544 00:29:24.279 --> 00:29:27.119 doing this in the Netherlands, in Germany, doing a couple 545 00:29:27.140 --> 00:29:29.569 of things in the UK and also kicking off in 546 00:29:29.609 --> 00:29:34.650 the Middle East and in Northern America. That sounds bigger 547 00:29:34.670 --> 00:29:37.029 than it is. We have some cool people doing stuff there. 548 00:29:37.049 --> 00:29:39.910 So we're not like a multinational or anything, but just... 549 00:29:41.099 --> 00:29:44.339 sharing where we're going but i see we can do 550 00:29:44.380 --> 00:29:48.299 this everywhere um and i don't know why i i 551 00:29:48.339 --> 00:29:51.180 don't understand why we couldn't do that so i'm just 552 00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:55.269 going to try it but imagine we're doing this in 553 00:29:55.269 --> 00:29:57.569 20 locations around the world and we're working for a 554 00:29:57.609 --> 00:30:00.269 client in london How cool would it be if we 555 00:30:00.309 --> 00:30:04.000 can get kids involved in London on the same challenge, 556 00:30:04.039 --> 00:30:07.279 but also in Amsterdam, also in Toronto, also in Saudi Arabia, 557 00:30:07.339 --> 00:30:08.160 also in Uganda? 558 00:30:08.859 --> 00:30:09.000 Yeah. 559 00:30:09.400 --> 00:30:12.400 They kick off, they start off from the same translation 560 00:30:12.440 --> 00:30:16.359 we made. That's basically the platform they're thinking about. But 561 00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:20.009 you get those cultural differences, you get those different perspectives 562 00:30:20.630 --> 00:30:25.170 on board, but at the same time, teaching kids problem-solving 563 00:30:25.210 --> 00:30:31.549 skills around from Uganda to New York to wherever and 564 00:30:31.650 --> 00:30:34.910 not only sort of the high potential kids but every 565 00:30:34.930 --> 00:30:39.900 kid and in my experience I love working with sort 566 00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:43.960 of those high potential high intellect kids but only from 567 00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:46.880 a process point of view because they understand it fairly 568 00:30:46.920 --> 00:30:50.660 quickly but the cool ideas come from way different classes 569 00:30:50.970 --> 00:30:53.650 so it's really cool to have that diversity in the 570 00:30:53.690 --> 00:30:58.140 type of settings, schools, classes, you'll get involved. So for me, 571 00:30:58.160 --> 00:31:00.519 the bigger picture is, you know, spreading this around the 572 00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:05.410 world and doing a lot of those sessions, thinking like 573 00:31:05.430 --> 00:31:08.920 a child for professionals with professionals. Every time I do it, 574 00:31:09.349 --> 00:31:11.309 I find it fun. So that's the main reason why 575 00:31:11.329 --> 00:31:14.299 I'm doing it. But to see sort of those twinkle 576 00:31:14.339 --> 00:31:18.319 in the eyes of those professionals, that suddenly they're allowed 577 00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:22.450 to laugh about complexity. about the ridiculous scenes that are 578 00:31:22.470 --> 00:31:25.130 taking place within the organization, but at the same time, 579 00:31:25.849 --> 00:31:29.099 pushing it forward towards a solution. But then with a smile. 580 00:31:30.730 --> 00:31:31.900 Here's a cheeky question. 581 00:31:32.299 --> 00:31:33.160 Yeah, go ahead. 582 00:31:33.259 --> 00:31:36.720 Have the children ever failed at finding a solution? 583 00:31:38.059 --> 00:31:40.759 It's not a cheeky question. I get it quite often. 584 00:31:41.180 --> 00:31:45.319 And that was, for me, in the beginning, really scary, 585 00:31:46.039 --> 00:31:49.039 if that would happen. Right. basically it's a black box 586 00:31:49.559 --> 00:31:53.259 you're throwing in a question and hoping it goes it 587 00:31:53.299 --> 00:31:56.259 goes out okay but we've done this more than 300 588 00:31:56.259 --> 00:32:00.980 times now and it keeps working and of course there's 589 00:32:01.019 --> 00:32:03.079 a difference you know sometimes it's like whoa this is 590 00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:05.380 really cool and the other is sort of a seven 591 00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:08.990 or an eight or something if you scale of zero 592 00:32:09.029 --> 00:32:12.950 to ten um but it works every time but it 593 00:32:13.559 --> 00:32:16.079 But I also think it's due to the fact that 594 00:32:16.140 --> 00:32:18.579 it's got different levels in it. And what I mean 595 00:32:18.779 --> 00:32:22.880 by that is, one, it's intriguing solutions, but there's a 596 00:32:22.940 --> 00:32:27.269 big effect on people. There's a change angle to it. 597 00:32:27.289 --> 00:32:31.170 People open up to ideas way more. Energy is injected. 598 00:32:31.789 --> 00:32:35.329 You get communication. So it works on different levels why 599 00:32:35.789 --> 00:32:37.029 it creates value

anyway. 600 00:32:37.670 --> 00:32:41.170 Yeah, I can see that. It's this multi-leveled space where, 601 00:32:41.710 --> 00:32:44.059 You know, even if the children hadn't come up with anything, 602 00:32:44.450 --> 00:32:47.599 quite often it's a realisation about yourself half the time. 603 00:32:47.640 --> 00:32:47.900 Isn't it? 604 00:32:47.940 --> 00:32:50.900 When you know a bit more about you, that helps 605 00:32:50.940 --> 00:32:54.319 you to adjust and adapt to the people around you. Therefore, 606 00:32:54.359 --> 00:32:57.660 you can collaborate and effectively solve the problem yourselves without 607 00:32:57.680 --> 00:32:59.920 the children. But the children were needed in the first 608 00:32:59.960 --> 00:33:03.160 place before you realised who you were. And so it 609 00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:05.839 goes on. It's like a big elliptical circle. 610 00:33:05.859 --> 00:33:09.970 Yeah, I know. And that's also why, as I answered 611 00:33:09.990 --> 00:33:12.309 to that question, how did it work the first time, 612 00:33:12.329 --> 00:33:14.819 my idea was that kids come up, at that time, 613 00:33:14.859 --> 00:33:17.039 my idea was kids come up with sort of a 614 00:33:17.099 --> 00:33:21.660 full-fledged answer. But that's not it. It's those sort of small, 615 00:33:21.779 --> 00:33:25.380 intriguing parts that needs to be combined with the expertise 616 00:33:25.400 --> 00:33:27.099 in the organization. And then you get sort of a 617 00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:31.480 co-creation phase. So that's why it works every time. 618 00:33:32.539 --> 00:33:34.839 That's collaboration at its purest, I think. 619 00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:36.400 Yeah, yeah. Totally. 620 00:33:36.619 --> 00:33:39.539 I like that. I'm asking you about the future of 621 00:33:39.799 --> 00:33:45.720 this possibility. Has it ever struck your mind that it 622 00:33:45.769 --> 00:33:50.089 would be delightful if you were to take children into politics? 623 00:33:52.250 --> 00:33:54.250 Imagine around the world if children go, well, why don't 624 00:33:54.269 --> 00:33:56.599 you do it that way? What's wrong with doing it 625 00:33:56.630 --> 00:34:04.170 that way? I can't help but think that politicians are so... Yes, 626 00:34:04.190 --> 00:34:06.730 there are politicians out there that really are passionate about 627 00:34:06.769 --> 00:34:08.730 what they're doing and they're trying to help the little 628 00:34:08.769 --> 00:34:11.750 man and all of those things. But it feels more 629 00:34:11.829 --> 00:34:14.869 politicians today are career politicians who are just looking at 630 00:34:14.929 --> 00:34:18.190 these stepping stones towards getting more money and being successful 631 00:34:18.230 --> 00:34:21.610 and more powerful. But what children came in and went, well, actually, 632 00:34:21.650 --> 00:34:23.489 that's what you're trying to do is good for you, 633 00:34:23.530 --> 00:34:24.820 but it's not good for everybody else. 634 00:34:25.260 --> 00:34:25.929 Yeah. 635 00:34:26.969 --> 00:34:28.639 So I leave that with you. That's my gift to 636 00:34:28.699 --> 00:34:31.320 you to go in the future down the line when 637 00:34:31.340 --> 00:34:34.309 you're bored with going into corporate worlds. just take it 638 00:34:34.369 --> 00:34:37.519 into a country and a government and say, can we 639 00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:40.760 help solve your education problem or your health problem or your. 640 00:34:41.920 --> 00:34:44.679 You know. Maybe as a quick reaction to that, I 641 00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:49.510 think the splits currently is about 50-50. So 50% is corporates, 642 00:34:49.780 --> 00:34:53.909 business life, 50% is government. So we do a lot 643 00:34:53.949 --> 00:34:57.210 of things for the Dutch governments on a national level, 644 00:34:57.230 --> 00:35:01.510 but also on local level. And I love those more 645 00:35:01.570 --> 00:35:07.210 social challenges equally to strategic challenges within a bank or 646 00:35:07.230 --> 00:35:11.449 an energy company or whatever. And the link to a 647 00:35:11.489 --> 00:35:15.659 government is even bigger because it's really cool to involve 648 00:35:15.679 --> 00:35:19.420 sort of the future participants in those type of challenges. 649 00:35:19.480 --> 00:35:23.880 So that's an additional angle there. But it works in 650 00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:24.840 both environments. 651 00:35:24.860 --> 00:35:27.679 Oh, that's excellent. Oh, I'm so pleased that you're already 652 00:35:27.699 --> 00:35:32.960 doing that. Because it feels like it's a natural space 653 00:35:32.980 --> 00:35:36.570 to get into. And then of course, as and when 654 00:35:36.610 --> 00:35:40.690 you are making ground in that space, then you can 655 00:35:40.710 --> 00:35:42.849 do it in other countries as well, because you're now 656 00:35:42.869 --> 00:35:48.050 a global organization, aren't you? So exciting times ahead, Baz, 657 00:35:48.309 --> 00:35:50.489 when there's so much going on and you're never going 658 00:35:50.510 --> 00:35:53.650 to run out of children for your solutions. 659 00:35:53.789 --> 00:35:55.969 Are you? No, no, that's it. Unlimited. 660 00:35:56.750 --> 00:35:58.550 Have you got any stories where you've been in the 661 00:35:58.570 --> 00:36:01.250 room and one of the children have said something quite extraordinary? 662 00:36:03.090 --> 00:36:07.030 Uh, yeah, quite, quite a lot. Um, yeah, but maybe 663 00:36:07.050 --> 00:36:09.639 to give, to give two cool examples. So, so one is, 664 00:36:09.800 --> 00:36:12.619 you know, we did a, uh, a big challenge for, 665 00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:15.440 that was the Dutch railways and the Dutch railways had 666 00:36:15.460 --> 00:36:17.480 the challenge, you know, we have to buy new trains 667 00:36:17.559 --> 00:36:19.699 for a couple of billion euros, what should be in 668 00:36:19.719 --> 00:36:21.590 the train. So people would still like to go by 669 00:36:21.639 --> 00:36:25.309 train in 10 years time. Um, and I

still see 670 00:36:25.329 --> 00:36:28.710 these two nine-year-olds sitting in front of me. And one mentioned, uh, 671 00:36:28.750 --> 00:36:30.920 there are a lot of people in the train, um, 672 00:36:31.789 --> 00:36:34.860 That's not rocket science, but it was an element I 673 00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:38.239 didn't take into account. But what happened after that is 674 00:36:38.340 --> 00:36:42.440 her friend sitting next to her mentioned in her own words, okay, 675 00:36:42.539 --> 00:36:43.880 if there are a lot of people in the train, 676 00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:46.440 there are probably also a lot of smart people in 677 00:36:46.460 --> 00:36:49.409 the train. And that's a really cool element. So when 678 00:36:49.429 --> 00:36:53.030 we started thinking about that, if you hoover above a 679 00:36:53.050 --> 00:36:55.789 country and see all these trains going by, there's knowledge 680 00:36:55.829 --> 00:36:57.989 in there. So how cool would it be if you 681 00:36:58.030 --> 00:37:01.039 can chuck questions in there And you're basically creating a 682 00:37:01.099 --> 00:37:04.440 crowd thinking concept within public transportation. And you can do 683 00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:07.539 that in trains and buses. We're actually talking to a 684 00:37:07.579 --> 00:37:10.929 big airport at the moment to start piloting this while 685 00:37:10.969 --> 00:37:13.110 people are waiting for their planes to work on those 686 00:37:13.150 --> 00:37:17.090 sort of micro questions. But the trigger is from these 687 00:37:17.130 --> 00:37:20.050 two nine-year-olds going from a lot of people in a 688 00:37:20.070 --> 00:37:22.289 train to a lot of smart people in a train 689 00:37:22.329 --> 00:37:25.150 in their own words. And that's the way it works. 690 00:37:25.289 --> 00:37:28.289 So you get triggered and then You combine that with 691 00:37:28.409 --> 00:37:31.670 professional expertise, concept thinking, et cetera, and you build it 692 00:37:31.710 --> 00:37:35.429 towards stuff like that. And I think this is a 693 00:37:35.449 --> 00:37:39.619 real cool example that kids don't provide that 100% answer, 694 00:37:39.659 --> 00:37:43.320 but they trigger you to saying smart people in the 695 00:37:43.400 --> 00:37:46.360 train to, oh, that's really cool, and then you can 696 00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:46.800 build this. 697 00:37:47.920 --> 00:37:52.679 They're like the conduit, aren't they, to the potential of 698 00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:55.969 where it's going. I mean, it's... when you consider the 699 00:37:56.030 --> 00:37:58.469 adults out there that have a good idea and then 700 00:37:58.489 --> 00:38:01.170 they don't want to go to the next level because 701 00:38:01.190 --> 00:38:02.929 it's all of a sudden it seems complicated and it's 702 00:38:02.949 --> 00:38:04.750 a bit too big and it's big, but these children 703 00:38:04.769 --> 00:38:07.050 are having great ideas and somebody will take that and go, Oh, 704 00:38:07.110 --> 00:38:10.840 well I'll do that over there and move it forward. 705 00:38:10.880 --> 00:38:12.809 So it's just putting the two together really, isn't it? 706 00:38:13.400 --> 00:38:14.480 Taking them and moving it on. 707 00:38:15.139 --> 00:38:17.940 Yeah. And another thing that we, that we did, and 708 00:38:18.300 --> 00:38:20.480 it's not so much an example, but I think it 709 00:38:20.500 --> 00:38:22.909 sort of links to that, but, As I mentioned earlier, 710 00:38:23.489 --> 00:38:26.539 we work with more than 20,000 kids and we did 711 00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:29.679 an analysis on their way of thinking. And we identified 712 00:38:29.800 --> 00:38:33.619 four thinking mechanisms that we see that kids apply quite 713 00:38:33.679 --> 00:38:37.809 often to solve stuff. And we basically reteach those to professionals. 714 00:38:38.349 --> 00:38:42.989 But those thinking mechanisms, the first one is no rules. 715 00:38:43.230 --> 00:38:48.150 So we see that kids... that they're not they're not 716 00:38:48.190 --> 00:38:51.469 aware of that certain rules apply which is really fun 717 00:38:51.510 --> 00:38:54.380 because they sort of mention stuff that is not allowed 718 00:38:54.519 --> 00:38:57.559 and that that's really intriguing and the other thing is 719 00:38:57.659 --> 00:39:02.159 kids know that certain rules uh are there but they 720 00:39:02.199 --> 00:39:04.719 don't mind if they go through them anyway so that's 721 00:39:04.820 --> 00:39:07.389 that's a fun way to sort of think about solving 722 00:39:07.409 --> 00:39:12.190 stuff a second one is um So if you look 723 00:39:12.210 --> 00:39:15.880 at the results of the ideas of kids, about 80% 724 00:39:15.880 --> 00:39:19.119 of their ideas have an element of fun in there 725 00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:23.599 that makes them smile. And that's really cool because if 726 00:39:23.659 --> 00:39:27.590 you implement that into a solution, the chances increase that 727 00:39:27.630 --> 00:39:29.989 people start doing that, especially if they come up with it. 728 00:39:30.420 --> 00:39:33.820 themselves and they implemented that element the third one is 729 00:39:34.199 --> 00:39:38.900 do good um we notice that kids have a really 730 00:39:39.119 --> 00:39:42.699 cool sort of moral compass so if you if you 731 00:39:42.820 --> 00:39:45.400 ask them for a solution to think about everybody they 732 00:39:45.420 --> 00:39:49.219 want to do the good stuff But 30 seconds later, 733 00:39:49.340 --> 00:39:51.570 they're really evil. And then they switch back to doing 734 00:39:51.610 --> 00:40:00.110 good again. But in essence, they're really good. And the 735 00:40:00.190 --> 00:40:02.929 fourth one is no shame. And that's linked to, and 736 00:40:02.949 --> 00:40:05.429 that's why I'm telling you this, because it triggers to 737 00:40:05.469 --> 00:40:09.139 what you're saying. No shame is about sort of the 738 00:40:09.219 --> 00:40:13.989 extreme stuff. No limits. I'm just mentioning it. And if 739

00:40:14.030 --> 00:40:17.289 you can sort of re-teach that to professionals, it becomes 740 00:40:17.309 --> 00:40:21.760 way more fun. And that's a really cool way to apply. 741 00:40:22.579 --> 00:40:24.820 Yeah. Do you know what? These are some of our 742 00:40:25.480 --> 00:40:30.780 behaviors and mindsets around collaboration. Having fun. Otherwise, what's the point? 743 00:40:33.380 --> 00:40:36.320 Having the mindset around this. There's no shame. We talk 744 00:40:36.360 --> 00:40:39.099 about vulnerability and being able to go, I've had a 745 00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:41.000 bad day. This is awful. I don't know what to do. 746 00:40:42.260 --> 00:40:44.000 because there'll be somebody in the community that can help 747 00:40:44.039 --> 00:40:46.780 you so all of those kind of things and being 748 00:40:46.840 --> 00:40:51.119 curious and being creative and being courageous and thinking about 749 00:40:51.219 --> 00:40:54.710 the future and having a generosity of spirit as opposed 750 00:40:54.750 --> 00:40:57.309 to a spirit of generosity so it's being kind to 751 00:40:57.349 --> 00:40:59.349 those around you to see if you can help them 752 00:40:59.469 --> 00:41:01.610 to to come on board with what you're trying to 753 00:41:01.650 --> 00:41:06.269 do there are a lot of similarities along the way 754 00:41:06.409 --> 00:41:08.929 with this it's really interesting and do you know what 755 00:41:08.949 --> 00:41:13.349 it's it's not surprising really that there are similarities, I think, 756 00:41:13.409 --> 00:41:16.670 because everyone that I see at the moment are looking 757 00:41:16.750 --> 00:41:21.239 for different ways to do things and different ways from 758 00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:26.039 a place of let's help humanity rather than a different 759 00:41:26.079 --> 00:41:29.420 way to make money. And yeah, money will come along. 760 00:41:29.480 --> 00:41:31.679 That's fine. We all need to have a roof over 761 00:41:31.739 --> 00:41:34.699 our head and food in our bellies, but it shouldn't 762 00:41:34.739 --> 00:41:37.639 be the only criteria that you're heading for when you 763 00:41:37.659 --> 00:41:41.360 do these things. It can be about having fun. It 764 00:41:41.420 --> 00:41:43.900 can be about helping your fellow man. It can be 765 00:41:43.960 --> 00:41:46.380 about doing something that's a bit difficult, but you're going 766 00:41:46.400 --> 00:41:48.280 to give it a go just to see where it 767 00:41:48.320 --> 00:41:57.730 takes you. I just think the tide is turning or 768 00:41:57.750 --> 00:42:00.369 the tanker is turning from where we used to be 769 00:42:00.409 --> 00:42:02.769 in the society and where we are going now. And 770 00:42:02.849 --> 00:42:06.429 this kind of verifies it to me that there are 771 00:42:06.449 --> 00:42:09.070 more people like you and me out there that are 772 00:42:09.139 --> 00:42:11.659 doing things to make a difference in the world. And 773 00:42:11.880 --> 00:42:14.699 if that's problem solving with children, because they have an 774 00:42:14.760 --> 00:42:19.579 innate sense of what is good, what is right or wrong, 775 00:42:20.019 --> 00:42:25.070 what is something that could be utilized rather than the 776 00:42:25.110 --> 00:42:30.289 grownups who are just in a manipulative state where they're 777 00:42:30.309 --> 00:42:34.110 just trying to defend themselves and look good. Children haven't 778 00:42:34.150 --> 00:42:36.389 quite got to that stage yet. And let's please God, 779 00:42:36.409 --> 00:42:40.809 they never do. But I think the world of business 780 00:42:40.869 --> 00:42:43.360 is changing for the better. When I talk to people 781 00:42:43.400 --> 00:42:45.679 like you, it really gives me hope for the future. 782 00:42:45.699 --> 00:42:48.940 Yeah, no, I agree. And I hope it's going more 783 00:42:48.980 --> 00:42:52.679 in that direction. So we're on the same page there. 784 00:42:53.719 --> 00:42:56.969 Awesome. So listen, Baz, we know at Collaboration Global that 785 00:42:57.010 --> 00:42:58.630 you are going to be one of our guest speakers 786 00:42:58.869 --> 00:43:03.250 at our next session on the 29th of September, 2026. 787 00:43:03.250 --> 00:43:05.389 If anybody would like to come along, you're very welcome 788 00:43:05.489 --> 00:43:09.360 to go to collaborationglobal.org, click on events, and you'll be 789 00:43:09.400 --> 00:43:12.280 able to book yourself a space. It's an online session 790 00:43:12.420 --> 00:43:15.099 and it's free. Come and listen to this man's genius. 791 00:43:15.880 --> 00:43:18.940 And another time, find out more about what he's doing. Baz, 792 00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:21.420 if somebody's listening to this as a leader, looking at 793 00:43:21.519 --> 00:43:24.739 his sales team or his managers or his directors, and 794 00:43:24.760 --> 00:43:26.570 he's going, flip, I need this guy to come work 795 00:43:26.590 --> 00:43:30.710 with my guys. What's the easiest way for people to 796 00:43:30.750 --> 00:43:31.429 get in touch with you? 797 00:43:32.239 --> 00:43:35.190 I think the easiest way is just go to consultingkids.com 798 00:43:35.650 --> 00:43:40.170 or send me an email at bas, that's B-A-S, at consultingkids.com 799 00:43:41.170 --> 00:43:43.719 and just let me know what you're looking for. And 800 00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:45.820 I'll get in contact and we're going to have some fun, 801 00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:50.639 solve some stuff and create some action. Awesome. 802 00:43:50.900 --> 00:43:53.579 Thank you so much for this conversation. I've really enjoyed it. 803 00:43:53.679 --> 00:43:55.809 And like I say, it has given me hope for 804 00:43:55.849 --> 00:44:00.050 the future. If our next generation... can utilize all the 805 00:44:00.110 --> 00:44:04.800 problem-solving skills and keep their sense of wonder and curiosity, 806 00:44:04.860 --> 00:44:08.440 then the world is not lost. We will make it 807 00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:11.079 better along the way, one kid at a time. Thanks 808 00:44:11.119 --> 00:44:12.800 so much for your time. I really appreciate it. 809 00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:13.809 Thanks for having me.