النص الكامل لحلقة Chad Harbach, The Brightness

you've started to polish yet for The Brightness? 00:03:55.787 --> 00:03:58.194 No, this is my great, this is my great, great weakness. 00:03:58.300 --> 00:04:14.133 In fact, the whole time that I was working on the book, I had a very, very hard time honing the elevator pitch because it's a book with, I think, a lot of different- plot lines and elements that all make sense when you read the book, but they're very hard to boil it down into 15 seconds, at least for me. 00:04:14.175 --> 00:04:23.225 Well, let me, let me see if I can help this, to basically say- y- first of all, for readers who have never read The Art of Fielding, you don't have to have read The Art of Fielding to read The Brightness. 00:04:23.228 --> 00:04:24.920 It really much does work as a standalone. 00:04:25.312 --> 00:04:39.274 But I will say, as someone who did read The Art of Fielding, that makes this experience personally, it was so much more enriching to kind of see this, uh, collection of characters, a very small group from the first book, kind of where they are. 00:04:39.274 --> 00:04:45.596 And a lot of the book focuses on one of the women from the first book, Pella, and her friend Irma, and follows them over the course of some time. 00:04:45.865 --> 00:04:48.718 In 2004, you co-founded n+1, which... 00:04:48.745 --> 00:04:49.874 Is it N plus one? 00:04:49.887 --> 00:04:50.333 I'm sorry. 00:04:50.343 --> 00:04:51.449 N plus, N plus 1, yeah. 00:04:51.494 --> 00:04:51.617 Mm-hmm. 00:04:51.617 --> 00:04:53.127 N plus 1, yeah, it's a literary magazine. 00:04:53.132 --> 00:05:05.404 And, and I have to read this because I was going through the website and it said,"N plus 1 was founded in 2004 in opposition to an intellectual scene that felt disturbingly fragmented even as the US launched one horrific war after another. 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:13.062 Literary magazines didn't discuss politics, while political magazines didn't care about literature, and big ideas had to be buried in tiny book reviews. 00:05:13.334 --> 00:05:22.343 The founding editors at n+1 looked back towards the dormant American tradition of politically engaged literary magazines in order to intervene in the present and to change it. 00:05:22.735 --> 00:05:50.293 For all the remarkable growth and ongoing transformation, n+1's editorial mission remains the same: to encourage writers new and established to take themselves as seriously as possible, to write with as much energy and daring as possible, and to connect with their own deepest concerns with the broader social and political environment, that is, to write while it happens, a history of the present day." I read that and I was like,"That literally could have been the thesis that you set out with your novel." 00:05:51.723 --> 00:05:52.108 Oh, wow. 00:05:52.418 --> 00:05:52.744 Mm-hmm. 00:05:53.865 --> 00:06:00.901 I mean, it really, it really, it, it really is, and we'll get into some of that specifically of what I think or what I meant by that. 00:06:00.901 --> 00:06:04.389 But so how soon was it afterwards that you started to dive in? 00:06:04.396 --> 00:06:10.497 You said a few months or before you really started to think about this, and what ultimately made you decide to return to some of these characters? 00:06:10.514 --> 00:06:29.149 Yeah, so you know, when I finally, you know, post, um, post-Art of Fielding mania, when I finally sat down and, you know, the way I begin anything, the way I do most of my writing is just with a pen and a notebook and, um, you know, try to just get away from everything and get into just as kind of deep a space as possible. 00:06:29.161 --> 00:06:32.446 I'm trying to bring something up from a much deeper place, right? 00:06:32.446 --> 00:06:38.031 I'm trying to get past- Yeah my kind of surface everyday thoughts and just, and actually connect to something deeper. 00:06:38.069 --> 00:06:46.591 And at that time, I, I absolutely had no intention of going back to Westish College, the world of The Art of Fielding. 00:06:47.012 --> 00:06:54.033 Um, I felt like I, you know, I spent 11 years working on The Art of Fielding, spent a couple more years talking about it. 00:06:54.079 --> 00:06:59.911 I had zero intention of, of going back there, and didn't think it would be a good idea. 00:06:59.925 --> 00:07:02.473 I didn't think my publisher would like that idea. 00:07:02.524 --> 00:07:03.826 I didn't like that idea. 00:07:04.129 --> 00:07:16.514 Um, but as I j- as I sat there with my notebook for a few, uh, weeks or months, um, I just really kept going back to Pella from The Art of Fielding. 00:07:17.019 --> 00:07:40.012 Um, you know, and I felt- You know, she's one of the five central characters in The Art of Fielding, but just because of the structural demands of that story, um, you know, and the way that it centers around the baseball team, um, and the way that I, you know, wanted to really keep the story moving along, there wa- there was a lot about Pella that I had, um, thought about, scribbled about, that wasn't able to make it into The Art of Fielding. 00:07:40.329 --> 00:07:47.800 You know, so I already felt that there were a lot of depths to her character that, um, just weren't, weren't in that book. 00:07:47.877 --> 00:07:58.884 And then furthermore, you know, at the, at the end, well, I don't, I don't wanna give too many spoilers about The Art of Fielding, maybe for people who haven't read it, but I also found her to be in a fascinating situation at the end of The Art of Fielding. 00:07:58.923 --> 00:08:21.927 So I found myself thinking a lot about what's gonna be next for Pella, um, as she finds herself at Westish College as a 24-year-old freshman who's coming from, you know, much more metropolitan East Coast and now is in this little town in Wisconsin, starting college six years older than the other freshmen. 00:08:22.172 --> 00:08:26.795 Um, a lot of other major events have happened in her, in her life recently. 00:08:26.862 --> 00:08:32.284 So I

just was kind of entranced with, uh, writing about Pella, and that was the germ of it. 00:08:32.316 --> 00:08:41.299 Irma is kind of the other central figure in this book, who is, is Pella's friend and is younger, um,'cause she started college in a traditional kind of trajectory. 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:46.089 I just thought this was such an interesting choice to have these two, and sure, people are friends of all ages. 00:08:46.105 --> 00:08:53.996 I, but I found it just an interesting thing because they are at v- very different places in Pella's life versus Irma, who's just kind of starting out on this journey. 00:08:54.105 --> 00:09:02.442 But to kind of share this friendship where they're coming at things at seemingly very different times in their life and going on it, I thought that was a really cool thing that you did. 00:09:02.452 --> 00:09:02.719 Yeah. 00:09:02.760 --> 00:09:18.979 I started to feel very early on that, you know, The Art of Fielding is really, um, a book about male friendship and, male relationships across the, across the spectrum, you know, from a full-on romance, rivalry, um, just, you know, best friendship, the camaraderie of a team. 00:09:19.034 --> 00:09:28.552 Uh, you know, I really felt all along that The Art of Fielding was a book primarily about male friendship, and I very early on realized that this book, The Brightness, is about female friendship. 00:09:28.570 --> 00:09:33.006 You know, and so it's kind of, um, been- inversion of that theme. 00:09:33.100 --> 00:09:37.851 And so that was just one of the kind of central cores that was running throughout for me. 00:09:37.980 --> 00:09:40.897 Yeah, and of course Pela- Pel and Irma are at the center of that. 00:09:40.927 --> 00:09:43.788 You know, Pela's 28, and Irma's 21. 00:09:44.221 --> 00:10:02.158 Uh, they're from very different backgrounds, but they have this, they have this, um, very beautiful and also at times fraught friendship, which I think, you know, when you have, um, two friends who are at slightly different life stages, there's a, a lot of navigation of, um... 00:10:02.581 --> 00:10:13.158 You know, Pela often will put herself in the position of Irma's kind of mom or big sister in a way that Irma sometimes likes, but sometimes it really rubs against her, rubs her the wrong way. 00:10:13.485 --> 00:10:22.486 Um, you know, so you have to, you navigate how to have a kind of equal relationship, but also to acknowledge the, the different places that you, that, that you're at in your life. 00:10:22.881 --> 00:10:29.409 Reading this, I remember years and years and years ago when, um, Wally Lamb, I think, published his first book. 00:10:29.410 --> 00:10:34.186 It was either She's Come Undone or, um, but it was, it was a female protagonist. 00:10:34.453 --> 00:10:37.705 And I remember people would talk all the time, and they'd say,"I can't believe a man wrote this. 00:10:37.730 --> 00:10:39.729 I can't believe a man." And it's such a n- funny thing. 00:10:40.135

--> 00:10:46.022 But I kept thinking about that at times with you and this, and I think primarily it's because of what you were talking about with The Art of Fielding. 00:10:46.304 --> 00:10:50.619 It was such a, you know, a, a male book, male friendship, the whole idea of baseball. 00:10:50.965 --> 00:10:52.936 And this is so... 00:10:53.371 --> 00:11:10.591 I got through this and I, my first thought when I finished this, I thought,"I wonder if you went into this, you had any idea that you were writing a book that dealt so heavily with feminism?" You know, maybe you don't see, and maybe you don't see it that way, but I, I look at so many of the women in this book. 00:11:10.605 --> 00:11:33.995 You've written so many strong women kind of at the core of this story and, and their individual journeys, and women who are in male spaces and in spaces that traditionally are male-dominated, whether it's the art world as one of the characters, you know, later, even the, like the literary world in a lot of ways is so male forward. 00:11:34.039 --> 00:11:42.801 But I, I, I was kind of just in awe And I, and I, and I understand intellectually, well, that's the, that's what the job of the writer is, right? 00:11:42.801 --> 00:11:50.063 It is to get into the minds and the emotions of whatever character it is, much to the same way, um, an actor will do that with a role. 00:11:50.394 --> 00:12:03.371 But I really, I so marveled the kind of turn that you did and that you were able to so successfully navigate and flesh out so fully these women in such a beautiful way. 00:12:03.434 --> 00:12:03.839 I don't know. 00:12:03.839 --> 00:12:09.092 It sounds almost reductive, and I don't mean it to sound that way but, uh, because I'm really, I'm, I'm kind of blown away. 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:09.625 Thank you. 00:12:09.880 --> 00:12:18.229 Yeah, I, um, I, you know, I, I d- I, I mean, it's, uh, I certainly explicitly f- you know, a lot of the book is explicitly about feminism, you know? 00:12:18.471 --> 00:12:18.951 Um- 00:12:19.003 --> 00:12:19.272 Yeah 00:12:19.273 --> 00:12:24.462 you know, I began with Irma and Pella's friendship, you know, in, in 2013. 00:12:24.485 --> 00:12:30.298 I would say by 2015, the book was just, was very explicitly about feminism. 00:12:30.398 --> 00:12:38.000 Um, you know, the, the prank that Irma and her friends like pull at the college, uh, this kind of provocation that they do is like very explicitly about feminism. 00:12:38.394 --> 00:12:39.754 I wound up reading a lot. 00:12:39.785 --> 00:12:46.005 There, there's a lot of hearkening back to, um, you know, American second wave feminism of the'70s. 00:12:46.039 --> 00:12:51.687 At a certain point, around probably 2015, I did a lot of reading in that zone, and, um, you know what I mean? 00:12:51.688 --> 00:12:59.941 It's hard to s- it's, it's hard to say why, why the book went there so fully, but it just really, um, you know, just something in me really wanted to... 00:13:00.336 --> 00:13:02.625 Uh, that's where my heart was at, you know? 00:13:02.667 --> 00:13:04.159 And it's just that world opened up. 00:13:04.162 --> 00:13:06.827 I just, just- went deeper and deeper 00:13:06.876 --> 00:13:11.960 You, you alluded to this prank that Irma and her friends play. 00:13:11.982 --> 00:13:19.922 One of them, one of her friends, who's such an amazing character, Dahlia, um, who is so fantastic. 00:13:19.971 --> 00:13:32.837 But I kept thinking you were like a soothsayer, or you have the most incredible publicity in- built in immediately for this book because of the Cornell Seven and everything that's been going on with Cornell. 00:13:33.293 --> 00:13:49.952 And of course, again, we're not gonna give anything away with this book, but so many of the arguments that start to come up about women, about men, about women coming up against men i- in the workplace, in life, in so many areas. 00:13:50.477 --> 00:13:50.993 I had a... 00:13:51.017 --> 00:13:53.870 There was a quote that I love that Dahlia says. 00:13:53.870 --> 00:14:09.062 She's talking to this guy on campus, his name's Molina, and, um, Molina says,"The college's enrollment is 56% female." Woman said,"Women are hardly a powerless minority." And Dahlia says,"We're not a minority." Dahlia straightened and released her shins. 00:14:09.302 --> 00:14:10.509 "We're an underclass. 00:14:10.735 --> 00:14:16.865 56% female means if everyone was straight and paired off, there'd be hundreds of women fighting over the last douchebag. 00:14:17.125 --> 00:14:19.076 It makes the men feel even more entitled. 00:14:19.076 --> 00:14:23.922 They believe they're embattled because they're surrounded by women who win all the prizes and get better grades. 00:14:24.243 --> 00:14:52.756 They don't quite realize they're becoming obsolete, but deep down, they're aware, and that abs- unsettles them." And I was like, oh my God, that quote alone, it's like the entire argument that seems to be going on in this country right now with young men and feeling relevant against women and Again, you never saw this coming, so you could have never known, but God, did you hit the nail on the head. 00:14:52.958 --> 00:14:53.285 Yeah. 00:14:53.287 --> 00:14:57.620 I mean, in that, in that moment, the DA is actually saying that to the, to the president of the college. 00:14:57.629 --> 00:15:01.746 He's sitting in the, in the president's office, um, kind of, uh, spouting off. 00:15:01.943 --> 00:15:08.929 You know, I mean, I'll say, um, I mean, you know, obviously the situation at Cornell is extremely terrible and unfortunate. 00:15:08.981 --> 00:15:14.250 Um, and also, you know, it's not really precient on my part, right? 00:15:14.332 --> 00:15:17.155 These are just, these are perennial, perennial problems. 00:15:17.969 --> 00:15:18.365 Yeah. 00:15:18.416 --> 00:15:18.816 Yeah. 00:15:18.865 --> 00:15:36.947 No, uh, uh, 100% and incredibly unfortunate, but I was like,"Wow, this totally plays in." Another character that

appears in the book, um, is Owen from The Art of Fielding, and I don't think it's much of a spoiler to say that we find out very early Owen's a successful writer and, and in fact penned a book called The Art of Fielding. 00:15:37.538 --> 00:15:52.826 Um, but I wondered if for you, part of what his, with him is, uh, bringing him into the story was a great way to bring Pella into the kind of whole New York literati scene and this whole other world. 00:15:53.292 --> 00:15:54.599 I'm just so curious about that. 00:15:54.648 --> 00:15:54.895 Yes. 00:15:54.951 --> 00:15:57.650 So Owen has written a novel called, called The Art of Fielding. 00:15:57.740 --> 00:16:03.655 Um, and yeah, this is, this is some of the first stuff, some of the first stuff I wrote in the book. 00:16:03.669 --> 00:16:10.177 Like, I was really fascinated by the relationship between Pella and Owen. 00:16:10.537 --> 00:16:21.191 Um, and- The way that Pella helped Owen write his book, you know, she, um, you know, part of the, part of the... 00:16:21.206 --> 00:16:22.743 You know, it's a kind of a roman à clef. 00:16:22.750 --> 00:16:24.155 It's partly based on Pella's own life. 00:16:24.162 --> 00:16:28.138 She's a character in the book, you know, but also she really helped Owen work on it. 00:16:28.144 --> 00:16:42.808 She read his early draft, and, um, you know, and Pella is like a, a voluminous reader of novels, and she read this, um, kind of crazy thing that Owen had written and really helped him to shape it into the book that it became. 00:16:42.989 --> 00:16:54.413 And Pella was, you know, very engaged, like creatively very close to Owen through this process, but then, um, doesn't quite realize that Owen's, Owen intends to s- to, um, publish this book. 00:16:54.664 --> 00:17:00.595 And then on the one hand, Owen gets all the credit, and Pella's, uh, kind of left behind in that sense. 00:17:00.841 --> 00:17:04.390 And also, the book is partly about her and partly about her father. 00:17:04.711 --> 00:17:05.933 Um, so I was just... 00:17:05.955 --> 00:17:06.265 I... 00:17:07.095 --> 00:17:24.179 All that part of the book kind of came from, you know, my fascination with that dynamic and, and how, you know, what it's like to be close to a project, participate in a project, but then see all the kind of plaudits and credit go elsewhere. 00:17:24.567 --> 00:17:35.518 You know, which of course is just like a, a very common phenomenon in our world and, you know, this is sometimes referred to or ob- as, you know, kind of feminine labor, the kind of unseen, hidden labor behind the scenes. 00:17:35.929 --> 00:17:46.112 Um, so that's where that part of the book comes from, and then what it turns into in the book is that, uh, Owen is getting married, having a big fancy wedding on Block Island. 00:17:46.409 --> 00:17:58.276 Um, and yeah, Pella, Pella goes to the wedding to kind of be the, the best woman in this wedding and is introduced to a whole new world that really, um, captures her attention quite profoundly. 00:17:58.333 --> 00:17:58.608 Yeah. 00:17:58.609 --> 00:18:20.862 And also, again, it goes back to what we were saying in the beginning because Irma comes with a friend, uh, another friend, the, one of the, the two women's friends, uh, to the wedding, and her version of that wedding, like what Irma experiences there versus what Pella experiences there is fascinating because Irma is that much younger, and Irma has, has had a sheltered life, so to speak, before something like this. 00:18:20.942 --> 00:18:31.650 So to suddenly be someone who's a writer for Irma, to be in this environment with all these heavy hitters and bigwigs, I loved all that. 00:18:31.689 --> 00:18:35.957 You captured it so well, um, kind of that feeling of being like... 00:18:35.970 --> 00:18:48.623 Oh my God, I, I remember when I was an a- when I was an actor, I had a friend who, he's one of the Hollywood foreign press journalists, and so I got to go one year to the, the Golden Globes, which was a great thing'cause it's not just... 00:18:48.650 --> 00:18:50.074 It's movies and television. 00:18:50.520 --> 00:18:55.663 But it was in a ballroom, so you weren't in a, a theater per se where everyone was in seats. 00:18:55.674 --> 00:19:01.965 So everyone was mingling with everyone, and I was able to just be in that and walk around. 00:19:02.448 --> 00:19:07.634 And I remember just feeling like you're on the edge of something, right? 00:19:07.651 --> 00:19:15.241 You're feeling like you're, you're touching- Well, I started to say you're touching the brightness, um, in a way. 00:19:15.277 --> 00:19:19.200 You know, you're right on the cusp of that, and I think that's what she very much... 00:19:20.015 --> 00:19:29.575 Both of them are doing, but it's, it's interesting watching the way the two of them handle that and, and, and, and what it means to them. 00:19:29.589 --> 00:19:29.847 Yeah. 00:19:29.849 --> 00:19:40.556 I mean, Irma grew up in rural Wisconsin and, has not, you know, seen hardly anything of the world, and then, yeah, finds herself, as you say, in this, uh, in The Brightness. 00:19:40.596 --> 00:19:48.594 And, um, you know, I'd say a lot of that, a, a lot of that aspect to Irma's, um, you know, life and character just comes from direct experience on my part. 00:19:49.409 --> 00:19:50.041 I'm sure. 00:19:50.057 --> 00:19:52.949 How much of this did you really start to, to kind of outline? 00:19:52.959 --> 00:19:59.740 Or are you someone who starts with something, you're starting, say, with Pella, and just start to write and see where it takes you? 00:19:59.979 --> 00:20:05.132 Or are you someone who's very detail-oriented and says,"Let's break out these beats and try to see it where, where we're going"? 00:20:05.141 --> 00:20:05.320 Yeah. 00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:09.891 In The Brightness, I tried to do the latter more, or I let myself do the latter more. 00:20:09.934 --> 00:20:22.234 You know, I think with The Art of Fielding, um, I had a, um, a

pretty strong sense of the big mo- the big late moments in the book pretty early on. 00:20:22.451 --> 00:20:22.633 Mm-hmm. 00:20:22.653 --> 00:20:25.698 Uh, and it was, you know, I mean, it was a lot of work to shape it. 00:20:25.700 --> 00:20:29.954 I mean, I'm just, I'm, I, I like to be very meticulous about plot. 00:20:29.999 --> 00:20:36.134 I do, I do like to see exactly how everything's woven together, uh, at every moment. 00:20:36.174 --> 00:20:37.146 But The Brightness is... 00:20:37.172 --> 00:20:40.635 I think there is just, there was just so much story here. 00:20:40.669 --> 00:20:48.240 I think I could have written a very rich novel about the Pella and Irma half of the story, if you will. 00:20:48.336 --> 00:20:54.553 Um, and I could have written a very rich novel about the Irma and Dahlia half of the story. 00:20:54.643 --> 00:21:01.178 Um, and somewhat perversely, I real- I wanted to put both of these things in the same book, you know? 00:21:01.179 --> 00:21:01.458 So I... 00:21:01.459 --> 00:21:09.621 So that required a really, really long time to figure out how to, how to weave all the threads together tightly. 00:21:10.792 --> 00:21:12.471 And how much did you have to cut? 00:21:13.833 --> 00:21:14.316 Oh, man. 00:21:14.332 --> 00:21:14.763 Did you? 00:21:15.483 --> 00:21:16.705 I mean, oh, I, I wrote... 00:21:17.667 --> 00:21:21.647 You know, I think this book is, in its final form, about 200,000 words long. 00:21:22.371 --> 00:21:24.711 I wrote millions of words, millions of words. 00:21:24.731 --> 00:21:25.296 Wow. 00:21:26.181 --> 00:21:27.167 Yeah,'cause it's so funny. 00:21:27.167 --> 00:21:29.155 I have to say, like, I could have kept going. 00:21:29.195 --> 00:21:29.973 I really could have. 00:21:30.008 --> 00:21:39.721 Like, I, um, sometimes you get into a, a big book and you're like, there are points when you're like, okay, you have lulls, and then it picks back up, and I never felt that with this. 00:21:40.234 --> 00:21:44.334 And I really was so invested in these people that I wanted... 00:21:45.167 --> 00:21:46.440 I really could have kept going. 00:21:46.548 --> 00:21:57.924 You know, I got to the end of this thing, and I could s- and I said, like, I could see a third book that was, like, Owen and his life and what happens, or I could see there were so many facets of so many of these people. 00:21:58.523 --> 00:22:07.838 One of them, one of them I, I do just wanna talk about for a second'cause she's, she's a supporting character, but she's such a critical character, is Dahlia. 00:22:08.448 --> 00:22:25.738 Um- And I imagine that she was so much fun to write'cause she is this hardcore, you know, anti-patriarchy, anti-capitalism feminist, just gives no fucks, takes no prisoners kind of character. 00:22:26.099 --> 00:22:28.286 And I'd love for you just to talk about her for a second. 00:22:28.310 --> 00:22:35.727 Yeah, I mean, I think she, I think she may have simultaneously been the most fun character to write- Mm-hmm

and the hardest, and the hardest character to write. 00:22:35.808 --> 00:22:37.939 I'm actually getting a little emotional, like, thinking about Dahlia. 00:22:38.006 --> 00:22:47.799 Um, I mean, just her, um, yeah, her, her courage, her reverence, her, as you say, just like, um, giving no fucks. 00:22:47.849 --> 00:22:57.489 Like, she just, she's, she's so astute, she's so, and w- you know, politically minded in a way, or just like getting, you know, kind of action, action-oriented. 00:22:57.949 --> 00:23:13.647 Um, but she also is just kind of always cutting against- The dogma or the sentiment or the kind of conventional way of seeing it, um, you know, in a way that I think is just, is just really terrific. 00:23:13.667 --> 00:23:20.512 I mean, her story is, is complicated, and I, I felt like I had to sort of get every moment of Dahlia just right in the end. 00:23:20.513 --> 00:23:20.523 Mm. 00:23:20.523 --> 00:23:32.811 And so there was like, uh, there was, uh, I think in my own thinking about it, in my own revision, there was maybe, you know, just like a really intense effort on my part to try to get everything she says and does just right. 00:23:32.894 --> 00:23:38.703 But yeah, I mean, you kind of, you quoted that passage where she's sitting in the president's office and she just, like, gives zero fucks. 00:23:38.789 --> 00:23:40.038 She's just gonna say her piece. 00:23:41.499 --> 00:23:42.451 She's fearless. 00:23:42.932 --> 00:23:43.128 It... 00:23:43.136 --> 00:23:54.453 and, and again, you talk about, like, the title, The Brightness, and I think it, it also, to me, The Brightness not only represents, in a literal sense, The Brightness is a literary, uh, journal in the story. 00:23:54.486 --> 00:24:03.344 But it also, to me, is something that is about people and what they have, and, and it's like celebrity again, right? 00:24:03.673 --> 00:24:04.516 There are people... 00:24:04.526 --> 00:24:13.020 Like, this is such a weird thing, and go with me on this in regards to Dahlia, but it's kind of like the first time anyone ever saw Lady Gaga. 00:24:13.836 --> 00:24:16.718 Um, and she came out, and she was in a meat dress, and she was... 00:24:17.057 --> 00:24:34.724 Like, I remember seeing her the first time, and I was like,"Who is this freak of a person?" But there are those celebrities, whether they're a, a, a, a singer, an actor, a writer, who are so themselves in a way that draws a kind of... 00:24:35.048 --> 00:24:36.200 It's just special. 00:24:36.492 --> 00:24:36.721 It... 00:24:36.721 --> 00:24:46.170 You know, we talk a lot, up in casting, like, people would always ask,"H- how do you know, how can you tell if someone's, like, has that extra thing, that star quality?" And I said,"You... 00:24:46.179 --> 00:24:47.919 It's palpable." Like, you feel it. 00:24:47.965 --> 00:24:48.259 You... 00:24:48.272 --> 00:24:50.468 It's, it's in who they are. 00:24:50.718 --> 00:24:53.324 They're not apologizing for anything they are. 00:24:53.651 --> 00:24:55.250 They're completely individual. 00:24:55.250 --> 00:24:58.067 And you always try to say to actors, you know,"We want you to be you. 00:24:58.073 --> 00:25:00.330 Don't try to be something you think we want you to be." Right. 00:25:00.787 --> 00:25:01.694 And that's Dahlia. 00:25:01.727 --> 00:25:19.248 Dahlia is, she is that person who is like a, a really bright burning star, that she's gonna pull people, and she's going to, you know, I say seduce, but I mean that strictly in the context of make people want to be around her for everything she is. 00:25:19.250 --> 00:25:23.914 And, uh- That's why, oh my God, she's, she's just fantastic. 00:25:24.152 --> 00:25:42.193 There's a point in New York where Pella meets a, a writer who was one of her father's favorite writers, and they're talking for a moment about writing, and he says to her,"Look, I don't know whether you're talented or not, and I'll probably never find out. 00:25:42.218 --> 00:25:45.541 Everybody's got something, but nobody wants to sit down and do the goddamn work. 00:25:45.852 --> 00:25:48.423 Tell me, do you ever think?""Do I think?" Pella said. 00:25:48.484 --> 00:25:52.107 "Incessantly.""Well, that's all writing is," Perfect said. 00:25:52.173 --> 00:25:53.335 "No more or no less. 00:25:53.336 --> 00:25:55.471 Do you think you have writer thoughts and non-writer thoughts? 00:25:55.525 --> 00:25:56.008 Wrong. 00:25:56.294 --> 00:25:57.663 You have one kind of thought. 00:25:57.695 --> 00:25:59.127 You could write them down or not. 00:25:59.459 --> 00:26:01.276 Frankly, it's the same to me either way. 00:26:01.413 --> 00:26:02.955 My little hourglass is running out. 00:26:02.965 --> 00:26:14.880 I'm happy to spend my last grain of sand reading Shakespeare." I wondered if that's kind of how you view writing and, and, and, and your own view of it, kind of what he says of putting it down and doing the work, and that's how you view it. 00:26:14.898 --> 00:26:15.674 Yes, absolutely. 00:26:15.674 --> 00:26:22.348 And I think, uh, I mean, I think that's also what I have learned over the past twenty five years of doing this. 00:26:22.459 --> 00:26:45.134 Um, you know, and I think as a, as a young writer, I did what I see a lot of, see a lot of young writers or even old writers doing, which is, trying to, um, trying to write something much smarter than I was or, you know, try like, like really reaching for something and thinking that, thinking that, you know, writing is coming up with... 00:26:45.176 --> 00:26:47.503 Like, if I can come up with it, it's not writing, right? 00:26:47.506 --> 00:26:50.569 I think that's how I've, for a long time kind of viewed it. 00:26:50.609 --> 00:26:55.082 It's like, if Tomas Mon thought of it, it's writing, and if I think of it, it's just garbage, right? 00:26:55.096 --> 00:27:00.461 And like there's this, um- there, there's this, this kind of false thing going on there. 00:27:00.515 --> 00:27:06.097 so, you know, and of course it's, which

is not to say that what's in my novel is like exactly how I speak. 00:27:06.103 --> 00:27:11.378 Of course, of course you're doing a certain condensation, you're doing a certain elevation. 00:27:11.457 --> 00:27:18.361 You're like a, a novel certainly is like a kind of heightened form of speech in some ways, just as you're saying about an actor. 00:27:18.696 --> 00:27:20.157 I mean, it's exactly true in a novel. 00:27:20.159 --> 00:27:24.520 Like the more you that you are, the more it's gonna shine on the page. 00:27:24.548 --> 00:27:40.921 It's so interesting when I started doing this podcast and I was, uh, um, because I, in my head- perceive all writers to be masters of language and, uh, masters of word, and all of them are going to be incredibly eloquent. 00:27:41.208 --> 00:28:08.759 And it was always, um, pushing into me, like I'd get on and think,"Oh, I'm gonna sound like such a moron all the time." And that I was fascinated with suddenly, as I would go back to edit, the amount of writers who would come on who would just be talking, and it was peppered with likes and ums and everything that we do as humans just in speech,'cause we're not all prepared to go out and, you know, give this wonderful, prepared, uh, uh, talk. 00:28:09.185 --> 00:28:24.021 So it was just kind of this moment I thought"Wow, writers, they're just like us." Um, I have to ask you, what is happening, I know'cause it's been through so many iterations, of the Art of Fielding movie? 00:28:24.032 --> 00:28:24.525 Anything? 00:28:24.537 --> 00:28:25.227 Yes. 00:28:25.298 --> 00:28:26.069 I mean, so there... 00:28:26.157 --> 00:28:28.615 I think it hasn't, I think it hasn't been announced yet. 00:28:29.010 --> 00:28:30.486 Um, but, uh- Well, tell 00:28:30.486 --> 00:28:31.391 me if we can't say it. 00:28:31.452 --> 00:28:32.613 Can we say this or not say it? 00:28:32.613 --> 00:28:33.934 Um- You can tell me and I can cut it. 00:28:34.338 --> 00:28:35.617 Uh, no, it's done. 00:28:35.644 --> 00:28:40.671 I mean, I just think I can't, I, I can't give specifics because it, uh- Yes I think it's, I think it's gonna be announced soon. 00:28:41.030 --> 00:28:52.326 But, um, yeah, we are working on a TV s- series- Oh, I'm so- that ideally, ultimately, uh, knock on wood, will, would encompass both books. 00:28:52.666 --> 00:28:55.454 Hey, that's what I was hoping you were gonna say, actually. 00:28:55.474 --> 00:28:56.767 I was really hoping you were gonna say that. 00:28:57.415 --> 00:29:02.433 Um, and I'll just say on a side, a side note that I, and I know you can't say anything, I hope it's either HBO or Apple TV. 00:29:02.762 --> 00:29:11.501 But, um, anyway, yeah, I was really hoping that'cause I thought, oh, this would work so well as a series and could keep going between the two books. 00:29:11.913 --> 00:29:14.286 So that's, that's really exciting. 00:29:15.676 --> 00:29:18.298 Well, Chad, like I said, the book is, is... 00:29:18.326 --> 00:29:20.300 it's just, it's beautiful. 00:29:20.605 --> 00:29:21.844 It's so full. 00:29:21.868 --> 00:29:25.247 It is quite a meal, and I felt so satisfied at the end of it. 00:29:25.510 --> 00:29:26.938 Everybody, please go out and get it. 00:29:26.939 --> 00:29:29.836 And buy independent if you're able to buy independent. 00:29:30.183 --> 00:29:34.355 Um, I also, I will say I listened to some of this on audio, and it's a great audiobook as well. 00:29:34.355 --> 00:29:35.635 She does an amazing job. 00:29:35.903 --> 00:29:38.682 But it's, it's really an exquisite novel. 00:29:38.711 --> 00:29:43.088 I will for sure in the notes put the N Ones, N Plus One stuff thank you so much. 00:29:43.090 --> 00:29:44.221 This was, this was great. 00:29:44.221 --> 00:29:47.480 I'm, I'm, I'm so happy you're back. 00:29:47.480 --> 00:29:49.751 I'm so happy that you have this book. 00:29:49.760 --> 00:29:51.767 It's just, it's really gorgeous. 00:29:51.784 --> 00:29:52.541 So congrats. 00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:54.364 Thanks, Brett I really appreciate it. 00:29:54.768 --> 00:29:55.865 Thank you again, Chad. 00:29:56.292 --> 00:30:05.095 If you liked today's episode or other episodes of Behind the Stack, please consider liking and subscribing so that you never miss an episode. 00:30:05.125 --> 00:30:12.508 Also, what would be really helpful to me is if you can go to your podcast platform of choice and give the show five stars. 00:30:12.508 --> 00:30:19.258 In addition, if you have the time, what would be so incredibly helpful is if you can give the show a review. 00:30:19.307 --> 00:30:27.550 I will be back in two weeks with another episode, and until then, you can always find me on Instagram, YouTube, and Substack at Brett's Book Stack. 00:30:27.664 --> 00:30:29.616 And as always, thanks for listening