النص الكامل لحلقة Paul Wallace

work-wise to Limerick, uh, went to Crescent to rugby school, and it really sort of took off from there when I was sort of under 16, and I got into the senior team sort of a few years early, and then it's I suppose got on to the becoming a rugby player and not as much sailing, unfortunately. 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:23.759 But I've been able to rectify that in recent years. 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:29.839 And rugby's in your family, your brothers, like your older brother, played, and your younger brother. 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:33.920 So three of you played at a high level, and the fourth who made it club level. 00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:38.240 But it's obviously a drive in your house for rugby and sport and competition. 00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:39.759 Yeah, two older brothers. 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:49.120 So Henry and Richard played for Irish colleges, would have been first, and then I played for Irish schools in what, 89? 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:51.920 So I was about a year young for that, so I played a couple of years. 00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:58.720 So from that age, I think all of us were were fully head down on the rugby side of things. 00:04:58.879 --> 00:05:10.160 Uh, David was uh uh four years younger than me again, so he was a little bit behind that that curve till you know he probably came into his own when I was over in London playing uh with my brother Richard. 00:05:10.319 --> 00:05:41.759 But uh yeah, having Richard ahead of me again, another four years ahead in um you know those sort of uh national senior team setups and the training, etc., it was a great influence on me to with regards to the sort of training and the the work rate that was involved in a real transitional time when remember turning up for my first Munster senior training session and uh up at the front doing laps and the uh the looks I was getting from some of the other folks who is this young little student chap here now. 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:45.600 I I could tell there was uh that you're not meant to be doing that for me. 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:47.759 Yeah, yeah. 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:53.759 But I I suppose there was there was a start of that whole transition within within Irish rugby at that stage. 00:05:53.839 --> 00:06:01.519 And my brother Richard was probably most was certainly the most professional in the monster squad at that stage when it came to weight training, athletics, etc. 00:06:01.759 --> 00:06:15.279 So and I think that that sort of transitioned, and now you look at the how professional every player is, but it it it was that they were the first tentative steps, I think, where it was nearly frowned upon to be too keen in the training stakes. 00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:19.680 Willie Duggan would have wouldn't have liked that too much in the yeah, yeah. 00:06:19.759 --> 00:06:22.079 I I'd eat her on the way up and we woke up. 00:06:22.240 --> 00:06:22.639 That's yeah. 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:28.560 And then so the with the whole change of the game, this thing called professionalism was coming as well. 00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:31.759 So you had an opportunity to go over to the UK, didn't you? 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:33.360 Yeah, and do you know what? 00:06:33.519 --> 00:06:42.959 With the All Ireland League at that stage, the fact that I'd come through the the RFU systems from from the age of 17, we trained as professionals. 00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:46.319 I was working in First National Building Society and Treasury. 00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:54.560 They gave me a lot of freedom as sponsors of BlackRock back then, but the training we would do was we were almost professional, except doing a day job as well. 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:56.560 So that transition was well underway. 00:06:56.639 --> 00:07:08.319 But in 1996, when the game was fully professional and I got offered a few contracts in the UK, it was at a completely different level in England, the premiership there compared to Irish rugby. 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:18.639 And to go over to a club like Saracens, where he had the great Philippe Sela, Michael Lina, Richard Hill, you know, Peanut, the list goes on, lucky to play like the Castanier Horn, etc. 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:42.319 It was just here on Bracken, the just it was the number of Galacticos of the club, but also had a a real old school vibe about it, as was the the poor man of of English first division rugby, and was always been uh relegated, promoted, relegated some fantastic characters there that and we're still really, really close the whole club, even from the generation before, generation after. 00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:51.519 You know, there's a lot of been a lot of badly informed, bad press about the club over, especially in Ireland, I I've felt over the last while. 00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:53.759 But I tell you what, it it is a fantastic club. 00:07:53.839 --> 00:07:59.920 And anyone who's ever gone there and played there has a real genuine affection for the club, even if they played a number of number of clubs. 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:04.959 Saracen's always very close, and the way they've looked after players, etc., has been a credit to them. 00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:06.959 And where did you play in the games in those days? 00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:16.000 Well, my first thing is when we moved from Southgate, which was our training ground, which was a council pitch, basically, and we moved to Enfield Football Club with a huge capacity of 3,000. 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:20.480 So I remember playing against our first home game against Leicester Tigers, who had won the won the league. 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:22.000 We we beat them that day. 00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:34.080 And you know, they were full of the infamous ABC Club in the front row, Dean Richards, Martin Johnson, Neil Back, you know, Joel Stransky at 10, you know, there was all these superstars, and to be playing instead of in this little stadium. 00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:38.720 But the following year, then we moved to Vickerage Road uh and shared

the ground with Watford. 00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:42.080 And the following season we were very successful when the cup should have won the league. 00:08:42.159 --> 00:08:44.720 We lost out on, I think it was one one league point. 00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:51.440 There was no playoffs back then, and you know, which which was quite difficult because a lot of players were in international duties and that. 00:08:51.519 --> 00:08:54.320 So it wasn't a true reflection we thought of the league. 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:58.240 And when Newcastle won, I think we picked Leicerton for for third. 00:08:59.200 --> 00:09:00.480 It was quite competitive then. 00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:03.279 But at that stage, we were beginning to start getting 20,000. 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:12.879 So the fact that the club was able to grow so hugely, and uh a lot of the credit down was down to Peter Deacon, who was the guy who created Super League. 00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:16.399 Uh, he was a real fantastic sports marketeer. 00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:24.399 And I think most of English clubs and then uh Northern European rugby marketing strategies have all come from what Peter Deacon was doing. 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:28.639 You know, he recreated the Bradford Bulls, Sale Sharks, he certainly did it for Saracens. 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:30.720 Now he needed success on the pitch as well. 00:09:30.879 --> 00:09:34.639 Uh, you know, he unfortunately Peter died quite a few years ago. 00:09:34.799 --> 00:09:44.559 A wonderful man, and uh it just showed you where rugby could get to when from the amateur marketing to that professional slick marketing that he was doing. 00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:53.679 Yeah, we tend to forget that now with the passage of time of how not backward, but where the game was then and what people did to make it so professional and appealing. 00:09:53.759 --> 00:10:00.480 You know, even moving to a soccer stadium like Vickers Road, which I used to go and watch Watford Watford play, you know, tight and base, you know. 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:04.000 Yeah, we we were getting bigger crowds than Watford than occasion. 00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:05.919 Yeah, Graham Taylor's a good friend of mine. 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:09.279 I wouldn't want to say he's gone now, I wouldn't want him to hear that. 00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:13.600 Well, I I tell you, I I we used to go to the Hornets uh to watch some of the games. 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:26.639 One of the best lines I ever heard was when uh Gorn Ericsson was there and uh they the crowd started singing they'd rather have a turnip than a suede as his as him Taylor's nickname was turnip pet. 00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:27.200 That's right. 00:10:27.360 --> 00:10:30.559 I just thought it was one of the wittiest lines I've heard at a football match. 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:30.879 Yeah. 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:32.639 He came to my wedding in Melangar. 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:37.759 Turnip was served at the wedding, and he shouted at me, Why do you serve turnip?

00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:43.919 He's a lovely man, but I always remember Vickers Road as a nice place, and you wear the funny hats, Indian territories. 00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:45.440 Yeah, the Fez hat. 00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:50.399 It started with the kicking teeth coming on, all the music, you know, the men in black when you come out. 00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:54.799 All these sort of things were completely novel to to the Which take it for granted now, yeah. 00:10:55.039 --> 00:10:56.559 Yeah, I all take them for granted. 00:10:56.639 --> 00:11:02.639 But there was so much, and yeah, all from Peter Deakin, uh I would have said brought all that into rugby union and and really drove it on. 00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:09.360 You know, the at one stage we had more people in the commercial department than we had players because you had to create all your own money. 00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:15.919 There was no uh as in the Irish system where you you've got the unions financing the players and etc. 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:18.320 You're literally on your own there to create that. 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:24.639 And what Nigel Ray and the the his the other owners like Nick Leslow and that did, you know, they would they were losing money. 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:28.799 And as Nigel always said, all he ever wanted to do is make the club sustainable. 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:30.480 You know, never in a very quick buck. 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:36.480 There was a lot of very successful business people who went in thinking there would be quick buck to be made in professional rugby. 00:11:36.799 --> 00:11:40.960 All those guys pulled out after a year or two, realizing that that was not the case. 00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:47.840 You know, to this day, I guess financially the English club system still still finds it quite difficult to to survive. 00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:54.240 As we seem with all with the amount of liquidations of uh of rugby clubs and salary costs growing up, yeah. 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:54.639 Yeah. 00:11:54.720 --> 00:12:07.519 So uh not not enough uh credit's been given to to those benefactors that were there for the good of the game and the good of the clubs and and not looking for uh to see if they could make a profit on uh turning a club around like we see in soccer so much these days. 00:12:07.759 --> 00:12:08.159 Yeah. 00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:16.399 And for you, was becoming professional a mindset, uh way of life, was a harder to do to be professional. 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:25.200 You know, you got paid, but you had to have a mindset to be working 24-7 at being professional, which wasn't natural, uh even though you were training professional. 00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:26.720 Yeah, it's pressure, isn't it? 00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:34.960 Well, funnily enough, I I I had sort of offers to go to Bristol Newcastle and I decided to go to Saracens to continue a banking career and to work in London. 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:38.240 But I soon found out it was part of my contract that I'd be able to work. 00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:46.559 And that first season I was still playing European rugby with Leinster, back for Ireland games, and playing toward Saracens as well, all at the same time. 00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:48.480 So it was three different teams on the go. 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:52.480 So that so that that banking career sort of had to be parked. 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:57.519 But no, I loved it, the fact that you could just focus on rugby, you know, 24-7. 00:12:57.919 --> 00:13:05.840 And like the the big thing is Philippe Sella, who's probably my my hero in rugby, he was 36, he was just a class act back then, on and off the pitch. 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:12.559 And uh Philippe, you know, he the most important thing he should he never never lifted a weight, he was a farmer for such a classy, elegant player. 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:17.519 He was just so strong, and but he never ever did weights, which was quite interesting. 00:13:17.679 --> 00:13:19.200 But his was all about rest. 00:13:19.279 --> 00:13:49.679 He had to have an hour's rest in the middle of the day in between sessions, and it was it taught you whereas Addie Johns, who I recently had a conversation doing a rowing event with him, we were there at the same time, my brother Richard Paddy and myself, and uh he got into he caught a virus, uh his overtraining caused a lot of us to break down because we were doing these Irish programs still playing the doing your your Saracen's training, and the thought was you're a professional now, you should be training every moment of the day. 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:55.840 But rest uh, you know, the the sell away of rest and just focused training was what it was all about. 00:13:56.080 --> 00:14:04.879 I suppose that the hardest thing back then was the number of games we played, so we were never really able to have a good off-season because you you play 50 odd games a year. 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:14.960 You know, I remember playing France twice, I think we played a full game and 70 minutes, flying back and playing a half the next day against Watts in a league game, you know, we're at a very high level. 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:19.440 You know, you asked the guys to do that now, you know, he didn't play three or four days later. 00:14:19.600 --> 00:14:23.519 You'd regularly play a Saturday, you might fit in a Wednesday game and the following Saturday. 00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:26.159 Uh it was it was fairly relentless. 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:37.679 And uh even, you know, we used to play on a Sunday and you'd arrive on a Monday, and most players would have played on a Saturday, and in Irish training sessions it was a full-on heavy session. 00:14:37.840 --> 00:15:05.840 So it was yeah, there was sometimes the the there wasn't enough joint up thinking, it was said, which you see nowadays is a fantastic balance that they have, and you see that with the success of the Ireland and the players in the way they're given that time to

to be physically at the top of their game and mentally as well, because um, as you see with the you know, after Alliance tour and so many Irish players involved, it's so difficult mentally to stay at the top of your game to burn out. 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:08.159 And people say is that an intent? 00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:08.960 It isn't. 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:10.320 You just you just can't. 00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:11.360 People can try and do it. 00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:23.120 You can see in every sport, no matter what a competitor you are, and sometimes I think the likes of Andy Farrell knows how to do it with a little leave you out of this team or squad, uh, and that that generally gets a bit of a reaction. 00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:29.519 So um, you know, I I I think it's it's fantastic the way they're managing it now, both uh physically and mentally. 00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:32.799 And we understand recovery a lot better and scientifically. 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:35.120 You need that time mentally and physically, as you say. 00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:41.279 Yeah, and you know, the the other thing is you get a couple of weeks off, you can do some really heavy training within the season. 00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:45.440 You know, uh uh we had about a three-week window before you're back in playing games. 00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:48.000 And then after that, you couldn't really do that much hard work. 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:52.639 So we had about a three-week, three to four-week, you know, preseason, and then that was it. 00:15:52.720 --> 00:16:03.840 Where nowadays you've got all these little blocks that you can go away and and they're all like mini pre-seasons, so you can be at you know, physically at a at another level where you had to keep yourself fresh for games and couldn't be burning yourself out. 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:10.799 You know, you're recovering, then you'd one day you could have a semi-hard day, and then you're preparing for the next game so you couldn't be going too hard. 00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:20.240 So yeah, and and everyone wanted their their piece of you, whether it'd be the national team, the club team, or at that stage as well, Leinster uh would have been there as well with Europe. 00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:22.720 And playing for Ireland was still consistent. 00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:32.559 You didn't do you suffer from live playing in the UK in a premiership in terms of availability for Ireland, or was that a myth that people said at the time, be out of mind, out of sight, out of mind? 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:44.000 It was unofficial, but they certainly made a call after the 99 World Cup of things, after we we'd a big loss to England that uh if you were overseas, you weren't being going to be picked. 00:16:44.080 --> 00:16:50.960 Uh which was quite unfair with players who are already under contract um to do that retros you know, retrospectively. 00:16:51.360 --> 00:16:54.639 They they should have left you play out your once you made a commitment to come back. 00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:56.080 I could see why they would have done that. 00:16:56.159 --> 00:17:06.799 You know, I when I negotiated to come back to Leinster, uh I remember Asuka said, Look, I know if it's 6040, you'll uh pick the Irish-based guy, and I was told 90-10 Wally, you know. 00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:09.440 So that's but that wasn't but that wasn't on the record. 00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:10.640 But that's that's that's something. 00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:12.960 No, I know there's always a sense though. 00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:17.680 Sometimes you meditate against you, but weren't you imagining as punters, you know? 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:21.599 There was there was a little bit of uh politics as well, as there always was, you know. 00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:28.000 When I first started out, you go to Conn, Core Codden for your task, and then it was maybe Shannon or Gary O, Mike, Carry it all. 00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:30.640 The Munster teams seemed to have a good good control on it. 00:17:30.799 --> 00:18:03.359 And I think even with Munster Lens to they were pushing for their own players, which do you know what is it probably stood for Irish rugby uh quite well, but I thought it was fairly unfairly enforced that all the you know international players that are trying to better themselves by playing at a higher level league as it was back then in in the UK or in England were were suddenly just you know jettisoned out, which was look in in the long run it's it suited Irish rugby, but I think even in that medium-short term it would have been better to integrate, keep the players involved, and just say, right, you've got to come back. 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:11.359 It would have had a much stronger depth of players and maybe would have had a bit more success, even though in that sort of O'Driscal era there was great success. 00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:18.319 But unfortunately, I was just retiring, I broke my leg just as as Brian was breaking onto the scene. 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:37.200 I and not just him, but the you know, that length to back lines and the monster forwards coming through to us but I think if we had stronger depth and it I I I know most of the English-based players came back, but and there was a year or two where they were left out in the cold, which I I thought would have been was not to the betterment of of Irish rugby. 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:37.759 Yeah. 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:40.319 And is Irish this important to you? 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:45.440 Being Irish and living in England or travelling, is that something you carry as a badge? 00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:46.640 Is it important or not? 00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:46.960 Yeah. 00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:48.319 Hugely, usually. 00:18:48.559 --> 00:19:08.079 When I suppose as an Irish player and as an ambassador for Ireland from, you know, way back, you won a school's triple crowned, you know, at that early age, what that meant to me, especially in Oxford and Iffley Road

against a very strong English team with Kieran Bracken, Mark Regan, I think Sean DeLalio on the bench, you know, was uh a pretty, pretty strong side. 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:20.400 And from that, just touring, whether it was you know, Student World Cup in Italy or toured Africa with an Irish development team, you always just felt you were an ambassador for the Irish team, and especially when you got to the senior level. 00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:20.880 Yeah. 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:26.400 And it was always uh like we we might have had the most success, but we were definitely the most fun national team. 00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:28.319 And wherever we went, we were we were very light. 00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:38.000 So I think we were we we were we we generally got a lot of the locals on our side as opposed to some other teams that might be touring, and especially down in South Africa or Australia, New Zealand. 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:46.799 But you know, even post-rugby, I've been lucky to do a lot of after dinner speaking in Asia and America, you know, further feel Australia, New Zealand. 00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:48.960 And you always feel, you know, it's great. 00:19:49.039 --> 00:20:02.240 People just always want to, you know, we've got string such a strong diaspora, but also I think other people neutrals there always seem to enjoy, and you can get a a bit of a free ride being Irish around the world, to be honest. 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:07.279 There's that you know, people are on your side before you before they even meet you, which is which is great. 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:08.960 And there's a reason behind that. 00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:22.799 I think it's a lot of the great things and you know, the Irish people being very uh the empathy that I think the the humour and general understanding of other people's cultures, I think are very indicative of the Irish people. 00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:25.599 And you know, I think that's that's really stood for us for a long time. 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:29.039 Yeah, I lived in London early in mid-80s. 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:38.319 It was slightly different than there was a bit of anti, but I love the place, but you're always more self-conscious than you would have been living in Boston, for example, where I was for ten years. 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:45.119 And Irishness carries itself differently in different places, and you just have to be kind of uh self-conscious about it sometimes. 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:49.519 And you know, in London it was still it was called paddy, like a lot of people just call you paddy. 00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:52.640 Uh and it was I don't think it was even meant to be derogatory. 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:54.400 No, I don't I don't think it really is. 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:56.480 You can't I I never take offense to that. 00:20:56.720 --> 00:20:57.039 Yeah. 00:20:57.200 --> 00:21:04.400 Well, there was there was a lot of uh teammates uh for the catchment area from Essex, yeah, and they would always

go, Go on, Mike, say 30. 00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:08.400 Not realizing they could pronounce it themselves. 00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:08.720 Yeah. 00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:11.200 So I got it, yeah, you you you'd have a good laugh at that. 00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:12.000 And you know what? 00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:16.079 I everyone had a good, you know, good slag off each other, good sense of humour. 00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:19.279 You you you never took it s too seriously. 00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:30.640 You'd always know, you know, some of my best friends now are English players that I would have played with, you know, over the years as Harrisons as well, and you know, just brilliantly genuine people who would always have your back. 00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:41.839 Well, we claim Karen Bracken anyway, so even though he is And setbacks, Paul, I know you've had your series of injuries over the years and actually ended your career in a way. 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:46.960 How do you deal with them and where'd you get the resilience to battle through them? 00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:51.519 I was pretty lucky with injuries, considering the amount of mileage I was going through. 00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:59.839 Tended to to get away until I had when I was twenty nine, had a really bad break of my ankle on a frozen pitch in in Ravenhill up in Belfast. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.079 Fast for Sarsons against Ulster. 00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:03.920 And yeah, that put me back. 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:09.839 I was out for about a year and be put me back, came back to Leinster because there's, you know, to be better looked after, fewer games, etc. 00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:16.559 And also at that stage, I mean pointed out to me, if you want to play for Ireland again, you want to be back in Ireland. 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:23.599 So even though I was probably only half the player when I came back, I was straight into the squad again, which just showed the yeah. 00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:25.359 If you're available, you're in. 00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:30.240 Yeah, where I was playing my best rugby before I broke my ankle and I couldn't get in the squad. 00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:36.799 Uh like best by a long mile, better than my lines form, better than anything, and I was just being ignored because I was with Saracens. 00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:39.839 But uh with a broken leg, I was never quite the same player again. 00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:42.319 And then eventually that that sort of broke out. 00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:56.720 But you know, it it thought me a lot as a player, you know, over in Saracen's those years, a lot of players who had a lot of injury problems who were out for six, you know, eight months, they're just in there in the gym training on their own. 00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:04.079 And it's it's a bit like I guess if you're in the military and you don't want to think about the people that are hurt. 00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:06.960 You just got to think the positive stuff that you never get hurt. 00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:08.559 And you have this mindset. 00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:19.680 But coming back from that injury and the amount of of time, you know, it's myself and uh Brezi, actually, who is on a Linster contract as well, obviously went on to music and everything else. 00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:24.799 But the two of us stuck in the gym for about six months, you know, just doing our own rehab and that. 00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:31.759 And what I had to do just to get on the training pitch every day and recovery afterwards, just so I could get on the training pitch. 00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:33.440 It's the hardest I've ever worked. 00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:36.960 And when I got back playing, we we won the the Celtic League final. 00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:47.759 I got back for about the quarterfinal stage and went on and won that, and got back and had a few games for Ireland off the bench, uh, even though I thought I wasn't quite right. 00:23:48.000 --> 00:24:01.039 But to work to get to that level again, it was probably the proudest achievement, you know, personally, that I've had, not not winning anything, but just the work and effort that went in to get me to that stage. 00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:06.400 And even though I couldn't play anywhere near my best, yeah, that that was huge for me. 00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:09.119 Like I was doing a cycling event there recently. 00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:12.319 I were in the middle of the night with Rob Wainwright and Martin Johnson. 00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:13.920 You're up in the Welsh Mountains. 00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:21.759 And all of a sudden, uh one of the guys said, just as we did it was about minus two, minus three, and this is in the daddy cycle. 00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:25.039 And one of the guys behind me through and says, Your brakes dropping. 00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:26.400 I said, Oh, it's not scrambled. 00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:29.599 Anyhow, bang, bang, just started dropping, dropping, dropping. 00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:35.119 And I was going to get off, and then I realized, geez, there's no one behind me out of the middle of the Welsh Mountains on my own. 00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:41.519 And I said, Well, I'll do a car, something will come along, or I'll go back down the hill to where we came from. 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:47.279 And then I I just said, Look, if whatever you do, get to the top of the mountain, and then you can give up. 00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:50.319 And it was sort of uh an analogy. 00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:55.920 So there I headed off with the brake rubbing up the mountain and got up there to the top. 00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:59.359 And next thing you see, the van has pulled in waiting. 00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:05.039 So went there, they fixed the brake and caught up and got back in it and was able to finish the whole thing. 00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:07.759 But I I guess it was a bit like that with the injury. 00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:13.680 You know, I just went, just things are down, get to the best you can

be, and then you can be happy when you finish. 00:25:13.839 --> 00:25:18.240 Now, as it as it happened, it was the the the surgeon told me, that's it, you can't. 00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:21.279 I I literally couldn't put any weight on it anymore. 00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:22.960 So um that was that. 00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:26.319 I was very proud of the way that you know I pushed myself. 00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:34.799 I still, I suppose, would have expected uh five, six years if I hadn't broken my my ankle uh more in my career, so it was probably mid-career. 00:25:35.039 --> 00:25:40.079 Yeah, and and there was a Lions tour coming up in 2001 in Australia, which I really wanted to get on. 00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:46.480 I'd had such a wonderful time from a rugby and a social sense with the the guys in '97. 00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:49.599 So that that that was just quite heartbreaking at that time. 00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:55.440 But to fight back and get there and you know, wear the Irish jersey again was just where'd you go meant be to keep yourself? 00:25:55.759 --> 00:26:03.440 You you make it sound mechanical in the way you just go and train every day six months, but there's some m some days you just don't feel you have it. 00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:07.839 So where do you dig to get that energy or drive to do it? 00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:11.119 Is it just automatic or there's pride? 00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:22.240 There's there was a do you know, uh, because of what had happened, uh, where I felt I was should far and away the best player in my position at the time in Ireland. 00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:22.720 Yeah. 00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:26.319 And and I was playing my best rugby and I wasn't getting a shot. 00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:31.759 There was a real anger, and I guess I was harnessing that anger to get myself back. 00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:37.359 It was proving a point, and I guess being quite a stubborn person, probably what to get. 00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:39.839 And you need to have that stubbornness, I think. 00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:42.720 And it's you can have your anger, it's how you harness it. 00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:48.240 Yeah, and then to get it to be and just saying, right, well, I'm gonna do everything I can. 00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:54.880 And I'd realize then, you know, in this whole recovery phase, how easy I'd had it when I wasn't being injured. 00:26:55.039 --> 00:27:06.000 But when you're injured, trying to get back, it's you know, and and my empathy now for players with long injuries, it's it's just gone went through the roof from that day when you go through that process. 00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:09.680 It was, you know, the guys used you used to laugh at me. 00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:15.839 I I remember when my first training session back, I managed to run a short line just and I was running through him. 00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:19.440 A great friend of mine who played all the way up from schools at Liam Toland. 00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:22.720 And next thing he jumps out of the way and he goes, Liam, what can you tackle him? 00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:25.039 And Tolie just says, I can't tackle a cripple. 00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:27.359 I was hoping I laughed so hard. 00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:30.480 I went down, I didn't have the flexion, drop the ball over the line. 00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:32.480 I was laughing so hard, you know. 00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:34.480 But yeah, that that was it. 00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:35.519 But what can you do? 00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:41.200 You can do the best you can, you can redefine what the best you can do is. 00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:47.359 Try and raise yourself to that level, and if you can't, then you can you know finish with your your head up high. 00:27:47.599 --> 00:27:56.319 Yeah, we touched upon you know, channel that frustration, negative energy potentially in the right way to do something for you in the good side rather than the bad side, isn't it? 00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:02.640 Yeah, and you you'll always have a little bit of a come down period when you get bad news and you know it work, anything family. 00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:12.720 There's always little things that happen, but you know, I I suppose my mindset is I might go into myself for a day or two and be a little bit depressed or whatever, very angry about it. 00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:19.279 And and then I just get this sort of anger and then just try and really push that on and say, right, okay, stop feeling sorry for yourself. 00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:26.880 Try and remember some of Jim Telfer from the Lions tour, his some of his lines, his like stop feeling sorry for yourself. 00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:41.200 You know, there's two types of people in the world, those that feel sorry for themselves, and then who just get up and sort it out and make sure you can you can feel a bit sorry for yourself, but you just gotta get right back out and come back twice as hard then and to make sure you're gonna you get there. 00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:45.920 Just what what you think your best is, you gotta go and better that again and make sure you're gonna be able to do that. 00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:55.119 And describe to me being in that room when when Jim gives those those famous speeches that we know now watching '97 or whatever, of digging that deep. 00:28:55.279 --> 00:28:59.440 Is it that intense and scary, motivating, listening to him speak? 00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:00.079 Yeah. 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:00.960 You know what? 00:29:01.119 --> 00:29:04.319 Well, the nerves and that, and most of those were before test matches. 00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:17.599 And can I add, Ian McEakin was just as inspirational, but there's something about Jim Telford's voice, his character, that just absolutely inspires. 00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:22.640 You know, even in training sessions, he he would do things that kickoffs were too slow. 00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:24.079 And we said, We're we're sprinting flat. 00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:35.440 But he would

make ways where you start back an extra five meters and you're you know, and you'd get there, and he'd always manage to get you think you think you're 100%, you're only doing it about 90, he'll get to at least to 95. 00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:41.680 And it was always that way, and it was a mental hardness, just don't feel sorry for yourself attitude. 00:29:41.839 --> 00:30:05.279 In Scotland, I guess when you had Jim every session, some of the forwards uh weren't the biggest fans of coming in kind of turning against this, but in a one-off occasion, whether it be Johnson, you know, Delali, especially the forwards, I think, you know, Woody, Myself, Hilly, Jeremy Davis, we were all absolutely enthralled for him to just push and push and push. 00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:10.240 But I think because as a team, we were it was like he was one of the players with us on the pitch. 00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:13.519 And of course, he had great leadership of Martin Johnson as well. 00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:17.759 It was a man of fewer words, but when he said spoke, everyone listened. 00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:24.400 Even a look from John O could tell you would be more than uh, you know, some players like to talk a lot, some captains' leaders. 00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:31.119 Uh John's a man of few words, but I would say much more influential than the others. 00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:31.680 Yeah. 00:30:31.839 --> 00:30:40.799 And that sliding doors moment when you didn't think you were going to make it to South Africa and you passed your opponent in the Heathrow and end up playing three tests. 00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:43.039 Do you find that remarkable looking back? 00:30:43.359 --> 00:30:46.559 Yeah, look, I I was again, you talk about disappointment. 00:30:46.799 --> 00:30:51.680 I felt I was playing very well in Saracens at the time. 00:30:51.839 --> 00:31:02.799 Uh in Ireland, we played against Scotland in the last game of the Six Nations, lost that match, and I we would have been expected to dominate up front. 00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:09.119 I was up against Tommy Smet, the late Tommy Smit, who became a great friend of mine and played in the Lions team with me. 00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:13.599 Uh, like as I like to say it, uh I didn't lose my spot on the Lions tour. 00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:16.640 I got I got Tommy his spot on the Lions tour. 00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:19.519 But he he he was like he's like a little temp peg. 00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:22.640 The more you pushed him, the more you'd like pushing him into the ground. 00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:26.480 So he wasn't the most aggressive guy to go at you, but to get dominance was very difficult. 00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:29.119 And then he was such a great player around the park. 00:31:29.359 --> 00:31:47.440 And yeah, that that disappointment and uh not getting selected, I suppose, was again a benefit to me because I came, not thinking I'd have a chance because you had Di Young, who had who had played in the Australian Test Series uh eight

years before, Jason Leonard had played four years before uh tied. 00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:54.240 So I was thinking I'd be lucky to get a few games, and it was just about give everything and just show that you should have been on the tour. 00:31:54.400 --> 00:32:02.799 But to uh break into the test team, I I always felt I was good enough, but I didn't think I'd ever get the opportunity to actually make a good run at it. 00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:11.759 And of course, passing Claw who didn't call CPU show was yeah, we look, we we had a we had a ding-dong every time we played at each other. 00:32:11.920 --> 00:32:17.119 You know, I was the young pretender coming through at Munster, and then it was Munster Leinster or Saracens and that. 00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:19.680 So we had a good ding down, was very competitive. 00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:25.119 Like uh Claw was never quite like the young fellow coming to let him arm around and try and bring you through. 00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:28.079 He's gone, I'm fighting you two to the hill for the spot. 00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:32.000 And uh God, we we had some sparks uh around the pitch over the years. 00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:38.559 Yeah, but you got in there and you meant that lovely man Ost Durant in your Yeah, big Oz, yeah. 00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:41.759 And yeah, funnily enough, I got carried away with myself. 00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:43.839 I was going quite well in the midweek team. 00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:51.519 We were out scrummaging all the competition, and I was going now I've got the big English, you know, back five along with Jeremy Davidson. 00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:55.279 You know, it was Rod Burr, Delalio Hill, Johnson, Jeremy. 00:32:55.519 --> 00:33:09.440 There's a big lot of weight in there, a lot of physical size, not countenancing that the springbok back five are even bigger than went too high, tried to power scrummage, one penalty against us, which I take the scrum height was my fault. 00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:11.920 Uh next one, another penalty, they're 3-0 up. 00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:12.799 I'm under the post. 00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:14.480 You know, it mentioned Martin Johnson. 00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:15.759 He just gave me one look. 00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:19.599 It was the this round and the way look he can give you. 00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:28.640 And I went, right, cop on, you've been too arrogant trying to power scrummage against this giant Oz, you know, uh Oz means ox in Afrikaans. 00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:37.279 And to be called that in the high value, to be nicknamed, is is just that, you know, they're they're huge men at the best of times. 00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:38.880 But yeah, and a wonderful guy. 00:33:38.960 --> 00:33:45.519 But from then on, one side, you know, scrummaged, you know, scrummaging is about it's a former wrestling, and they're trying to take that out of the game. 00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:54.640 And it's about technique and getting a guy into a bad position and then exerting your your your power and strength as opposed to just trying to do it the other way around. 00:33:54.799 --> 00:34:06.319 So that and unfortunately it's the skill and talent that's been taken out of the game, I think, in the Northern Hemisphere, mainly due to interpretation of laws from the Southern Hemisphere who never had that ability um over the years. 00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:24.400 By doing that and just sticking what you're good at and not getting carried away with yourself, then we, you know, we pretty much dominated the scrum from there on in, and you know, we got all the scrum angles that we needed, you know, including Matt Dawson's famous try in in the first test, which was probably the game breaker. 00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:30.960 You know, so it was yeah, and back then you you know you played 80 minutes and a big man you could wear him down. 00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:33.920 There's a lot more scrums than there are these days. 00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:43.199 So if you just kept working and working and working at the the big giant, you could eventually wear them down, as I was David to the Goliath, as it were. 00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:44.639 But yeah, it was great. 00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:46.000 Uh, you know, a wonderful guy. 00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:52.320 One thing I'd say about the Springboks used to always have a bit of a bad reputation because of the Africaners post apartheid and that. 00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:57.440 But the sportsmanship, they were always fantastic and changing a jersey or meeting after a game. 00:34:57.679 --> 00:35:13.119 And even though there was a huge rivalry, especially the following year when he toured at Ireland in '98, where there's uh the Battle of Pretoria and and that, which was quite famous, they were always great guys, and I must say, of yeah, and great sportsmen and uh just very, very physical. 00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:21.519 And funnily enough, where we thought we were the opposite to the South Africans, uh, work with a lot of South Africans now, and we're actually very, very similar, I believe. 00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:24.800 And there was no of those 99 call moments. 00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:29.280 It was all very friendly compared to the old days on the highway. 00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:32.400 Uh oh, no, there was quite a few, quite a few. 00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:40.320 Um well, we we had Andre Venter, who was probably the best athlete, probably still one of the best athletes to play the game at number six. 00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:44.000 He plays sevens, he was about six foot four, five, you know. 00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:50.079 He was really fast but incredibly big and powerful, and all he wanted to do was fight all day. 00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:54.880 So we said it's better he was doing that than running over Jerry Guscat and 13 channels. 00:35:55.039 --> 00:35:58.480 So uh we kept him busy in the uh in the tight exchanges. 00:35:58.719 --> 00:35:59.039 Yeah. 00:35:59.199 --> 00:36:10.320 And that was would you say that was on your

iconic iconic moments, your good moments you look back on of the touring party, the good moments of the the panel of the team, the high moments of your career? 00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:13.119 It is until coming back from my injury. 00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:14.480 Like I always swore. 00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:21.840 I said, This I was in the back of the bus coming out of King's Park with Jerry Guscott, and I turned to Cherry who'd who'd always also won a series in Australia. 00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:27.360 I said, Jesus, this better than than Australia, and he goes, That they're all different, different occasions, you can't compare them. 00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:29.840 And I said, Right, I'm I was 25. 00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:33.599 I said, This is not going to be the the top of my career. 00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:35.119 I'm just far too early. 00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:37.840 And I remember saying to me, This is just the start. 00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:39.519 I'm gonna get it's gonna be better. 00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:41.519 I'm gonna move on to the next level. 00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:45.360 And you know, I one of my biggest regrets is we lost the third test. 00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:51.679 You know, we're gonna now a lot of guys had injuries and and cried off, but that was a certainly an opportunity. 00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:57.199 We certainly did a lot of partying as well up in Vanderbilt Park in the middle of nowhere uh for a few days. 00:36:57.280 --> 00:37:03.440 But yeah, we probably played our best rugby as well in that third test, but just things didn't come off, and then they'd go to the length of the pitch and score. 00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:09.760 But we certainly played some great rugby, which we only did in fits and bursts in the first two tests. 00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:18.320 Okay, and around Christmas table of the three Wallace brothers who played for the Lions, who is the greatest inverter comms according to themselves when you meet. 00:37:18.559 --> 00:37:28.639 Well, I'm the I d I'm the only one that won a series, so I can I can uh David with his grand slams and Griffith with his turn down, they can they can make that and yeah, yeah. 00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:30.639 Beats them all. 00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:31.599 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:37:31.679 --> 00:38:08.480 No, look, they David in particular has had so much success with Ireland and he's had two lines tours and just been put on the lines board as well, which is he played in that series, which like one of the best games I've ever been to was in Loch Desverswald in Pretoria, that second test, which unfortunately we lost uh when Brian Adriscal and Adam Jones had that head injury, I think we'd have we could have won the series, you know, and and series can they're so tight when you're playing the likes of New Zealand and South Africa in particular away that even no matter how well you play, you need a bit of good fortune as well. 00:38:08.960 --> 00:38:17.840 And you know, we we probably got a bit with honeyball

missing a few kicks, but we we also, you know, it was swings and roundabouts, uh, and you create your own luck as well. 00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:20.960 And uh at the end of the day, it's it's you know, that's the result. 00:38:21.199 --> 00:38:23.519 You win or you lose, and you just gotta accept it and move on. 00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:33.920 And in real life, how sport is predictable in vertical and life, how do you adapt to life after sport, trying to make your own way in business or whatever? 00:38:34.079 --> 00:38:35.039 Good, barren, different. 00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:38.320 Do you find that a very different world to walk in than sport? 00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:42.639 Yeah, there's a big change, and I'm probably luckier than some of the others in that. 00:38:42.719 --> 00:38:51.280 I had, you know, finished university, I'd started working before I went professional, so coming back was probably not as tough walking into an office job. 00:38:51.519 --> 00:39:03.280 The confidence is a big thing because you've been out of the loop for, you know, at one stage I I found it I I'd start writing something, and my spelling and everything had gone because when you're playing rugby all day, you're not you're not writing. 00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:03.519 Yeah. 00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:05.199 You're not typing. 00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:12.079 You know, this is we were in London without mobile phones, internet was only just broke in in the latter years. 00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:15.280 So it was funny, you weren't writing letters home or anything. 00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:16.559 It was just all on the phone. 00:39:16.719 --> 00:39:20.719 And I found things like that and my skill set and then confidence to go with it. 00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:26.800 And I think there's a there's an issue as well, and I've seen it when I've chatted with a lot of players who've retired. 00:39:27.039 --> 00:39:28.400 You really want to prove yourself. 00:39:28.480 --> 00:39:35.679 You know, there's a lot of smart guys, but then try and overprove themselves, where to be honest, you're starting off again and you're there to learn. 00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:45.599 But people want to try and prove themselves by jumping in and maybe jump in too far rather than getting in and having someone that they can learn from and go to next levels. 00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:48.880 You know, take it as a phase thing, a transition couple of years. 00:39:49.039 --> 00:39:50.960 Now it's the competitive spirit as well. 00:39:51.039 --> 00:39:57.119 And you know, when you've been, you know, people come in, look if you're autographed for 10 years, and all of a sudden you're you're being dictated. 00:39:57.519 --> 00:40:02.239 Uh as I would say to some of the guys, yeah, you've got a boss there, you've got a couple of bosses, right? 00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:07.519 But that's you know, you're in a rugby club, you've got different coaches, you know, you've got the CEO, they're they're your bosses as well. 00:40:07.599 --> 00:40:11.119 It's just the way you're treated, whatever the culture uh of the organization. 00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:22.079 So yes, it was very difficult initially coming back, and then obviously the whole Celtic tiger imploding as well was was not great. 00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:24.559 But then you know, you learn from it, you move on. 00:40:24.639 --> 00:40:43.360 And I would say by going through those tough times post-rugby has helped me immensely in my career now, and yeah, and my ability to bounce back from Knox is greatly, greatly uh increased, Jeff. 00:40:43.599 --> 00:40:45.039 Yeah, well, time teaches you that. 00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:45.920 When did you come back? 00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:54.559 In 2001, 2022, something in 2003 I retired and I went to work for Jones Lang LaSalle in commercial property. 00:40:54.719 --> 00:41:04.000 So we were investing for probably syndicates and uh private banks and um individuals into mainly around Europe. 00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:15.039 And thankfully a a lot of what we did was in Germany, and those clients all managed to come through the tiger one way, uh, you know, pretty much uh you know, not too badly affected. 00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:18.320 And yeah, it was a whole divestment strategy for companies that were. 00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:23.519 And how do you keep your mojo going into this new phase of new way of doing things? 00:41:23.599 --> 00:41:27.280 You weren't on a playing field where you physically thought you could control it. 00:41:27.679 --> 00:41:30.639 Mentally, do you find that tough to keep motivating yourself? 00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:31.519 Yeah, yeah. 00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:45.920 No, you you certainly did, and you you probably didn't have the confidence, exude confidence, probably more so, where you're trying to push someone to do something because you know what's right, uh, and you say this guy's been in the business for 30 years, you're two, three years in. 00:41:46.079 --> 00:41:49.440 But you might have done the research on something and say, Yeah, you should go to this. 00:41:49.599 --> 00:41:52.239 But yeah, and and that's like Was it intimidated, though? 00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:53.599 Yeah, a little bit, a little bit. 00:41:53.679 --> 00:41:54.320 It was, yeah. 00:41:54.559 --> 00:41:54.719 Yeah. 00:41:54.960 --> 00:41:59.920 Because most sports people have a difficulty in stepping into what we we know is real life. 00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:02.800 I've done with soccer players, I've seen other sports people. 00:42:03.039 --> 00:42:19.519 It's very different to us, is granted, these things happen, but for you sports people, I think it's more challenging in reading people, understanding situations, as you say, not being used to do basic office things, you do feel intimidated, or the other people know more than you do. 00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:26.079 Yeah, when you've been out of it for for so long and then back into it, yeah, and getting that experience and moving on. 00:42:26.239 -->

00:42:36.719 And then obviously we you hit the the Celtic Tiger years and and I moved on into the debt side, which is probably with an economics background, is where I had wanted to be. 00:42:36.880 --> 00:42:38.960 But then it was just there was just no comeback. 00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:41.519 The Irish market was just so dead for such a long time. 00:42:41.679 --> 00:42:55.679 Um yeah, and thankfully over the last few years created a VAT review data analytics business, and that's going fantastic in that we've uh it's one of those niche industries where you've got no competition and it's a no-find, no fee basis. 00:42:55.760 --> 00:43:13.360 So we we've been very successful uh over the last two years, and I guess I wasn't a natural salesperson, but when you know something is that good and there's no real competition to what we're doing, then uh yeah, it's very easy to become a good salesman when you you've got real belief in the world. 00:43:13.519 --> 00:43:14.239 You believe in yourself. 00:43:14.880 --> 00:43:18.000 Don't talk too much about it, because people might listen and do the same. 00:43:18.639 --> 00:43:19.280 Yeah. 00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:24.239 Well, there's a there's there's 20 years of that analytics to to to get through, so we're so you're safe. 00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:26.079 A bit of time. 00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:27.360 And there's music. 00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:29.280 I'll be retired in 20 years. 00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:31.119 I'll go away at that. 00:43:31.280 --> 00:43:33.760 And you there's music floating about Paul. 00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:35.920 Yeah, but a a bit of everything. 00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:37.599 I really yeah. 00:43:39.199 --> 00:43:44.320 You didn't go to you didn't go to test matches with big headphones on, listen to music down the tunnel. 00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:45.440 It was different then. 00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:56.159 Yeah, I I remember before the World Cup in ninety nine, Warren Gatlin decided we're gonna put have you uh put a song on a little uh MP3 player for each one of you, right? 00:43:56.239 --> 00:43:58.960 And we're gonna do it right and we'll give him one. 00:43:59.119 --> 00:44:03.039 And mine Was something like uh oh what's the name of the band? 00:44:03.119 --> 00:44:04.480 It's like take your head off. 00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:07.760 Uh um it'll come back to the eddy. 00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:15.280 I was just really up peace tempo, and all the forwards it would be like either heavy metal, it was just something like you know, grunge or something like that. 00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:20.239 Uh and then it came to Davy Humphreys and overheard him. 00:44:20.320 --> 00:44:21.360 He had Celine Dia. 00:44:25.039 --> 00:44:32.880 The difference between forwards and backs, you know, it's just relaxing, calming music, and how it was uh dump dump dump manic, bit manic. 00:44:33.039 --> 00:44:35.760 I suppose ACDC I should have probably gone for as well. 00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:40.159 But uh yeah, no, I said uh the jam when I was growing up, big fan. 00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:43.199 My older brother Henry was into them and into that. 00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:49.199 My brother Richard was a ska, so it was a bit of you know, madness, bad manner specials, uh, and that. 00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:56.239 So, you know, but anything from Van Morrison to Queen to yeah, yeah, I'm very varied. 00:44:56.400 --> 00:45:03.840 Um there's some modern uh music as well, but uh to be honest, I I probably 80s, 90s is still where I'm at. 00:45:03.920 --> 00:45:09.760 Um every time they come back, like they were in the paper mode recently, and I'm just going, you know, they weren't even one of my top bands. 00:45:10.159 --> 00:45:12.320 They they're better than anything that's out there at the moment. 00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:17.679 And uh I'm sure everything I'm sounding like my dad would have my kid's age. 00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:20.960 Yeah, uh wait till your kids start slang your music. 00:45:21.280 --> 00:45:22.159 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:36.239 But I like Nina Simone, I go back as far as there, and I and I would listen to a lot of modern music as well, um, especially with my eight-year-old daughter, really getting into whatever, whatever it might be. 00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:50.880 So yeah, I I I yeah, I thought I'm fairly open mind, and I wouldn't classify myself as with any particular genre, but I certainly have uh it's probably time and mood that I would change to to to to what I'd listen to. 00:45:50.960 --> 00:45:57.679 But if you're to say anyone that I'd love to see, it would be Paul Weller back with the jam, not coming here on his own. 00:45:57.920 --> 00:45:58.159 Yeah. 00:45:58.639 --> 00:45:59.920 Well, fingers crossed for that. 00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:08.079 And is any poems or words of wisdom apart from what you learned from Jim Telfer that you would run to as a quote that motivates him? 00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:11.679 Or is Jim Telfer's climate ever's the place where it's at? 00:46:11.920 --> 00:46:17.039 Yeah, well, yeah, that there's another Henry Ford one, a good courtman. 00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:20.960 A scatter brain is one who never has an unspoken thought. 00:46:21.199 --> 00:46:22.800 I I'm a bit of a scatter brain. 00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:28.079 You know, sometimes I I don't take the time to think and just blurt it out. 00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:36.719 I saw it once in an Irish Times article where it was as a slight on someone, just uh a quote about the person who said, Never an unspoken thought. 00:46:36.880 --> 00:46:39.039 And just wonderful put down. 00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:42.239 But it it's probably one that I got to learn myself. 00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:43.280 Probably never will. 00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:48.159 It's not in my persona, but uh yeah, yeah, it's um it is it is a good one. 00:46:48.239 --> 00:46:53.119 There's there's a lot of things that I I wish I thought a bit more about before I actually spoke. 00:46:54.400 --> 00:47:02.320 And finally, when you look back on your career, life, and business, are you surprised at where it uh worked out how successful you were? 00:47:02.480 --> 00:47:06.239 Or was it given in your mind that you'd be get to where you are now? 00:47:06.559 --> 00:47:14.079 I remember being a a student in UCC and saying, Oh, I'm gonna play for Ireland in about three years' time, which I went ahead and did. 00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:17.280 Uh I know I always had this focus to do that. 00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:26.000 I suppose in business life I had that uh it was greatly interrupted with the sport, but would I ever exchange it? 00:47:26.239 --> 00:47:27.039 Definitely not. 00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:27.360 No. 00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:29.920 There's sort of regrets that I couldn't do both. 00:47:30.079 --> 00:47:40.159 You know, I think back of a lot of people who went into investment banking when you're an international rugby player, sort of helps you along in you know, in that level in your business and you can jump straight back into it. 00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:47.039 But when you take that time out for eight, ten years and then try and go back and start building you, you never quite get there. 00:47:47.119 --> 00:47:49.360 But you know, slowly but surely getting there. 00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:57.039 And you know, it's it I guess success is all about the real reward from it is what you've put into it to get yourself there. 00:47:57.199 --> 00:48:09.360 And I think that's something, you know, you go back talking about Telfer, is if you put everything in, even if it's uh a loss but a great performance, well, that's success as well. 00:48:09.599 --> 00:48:28.000 So you want to get the win, but the thing is getting the best out of yourself and getting yourself and always knowing that you can get more out of yourself and uh you can be better, and never really relaxing on what you think is is optimal performance and just pushing, pushing about. 00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:41.119 You know, in sport it would have been I changed my diet, uh, which was a big thing, when on a zone diet, and which improved things greatly, changed the the way I was training, sleep habits, all these little things just to get that little bit more. 00:48:41.360 --> 00:48:53.519 I guess it's the same with, you know, I suppose disciplines in working life as well and family life as well, and in what you're going to do, you know, getting to bed earlier so you're you're up earlier with your children before you get to work and and things like that. 00:48:53.760 --> 00:49:06.960 So there are a lot of a lot of things, but I suppose it's it's just ever you always have to be trying to improve yourself one way or another, and especially by doing things that you don't really want to do. 00:49:07.280 --> 00:49:11.280 Paul Wallace, thank you very much for joining us today on our nine discs. 00:49:11.679 --> 00:49:12.639 My pleasure, Rafa. 00:49:12.880 --> 00:49:14.079 It's been great chatting.