النص الكامل لحلقة The Dancing Plague: Mass Hysteria or Medical Mystery

00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:37.439 It's my primary source of hydration. 00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:39.199 There is hydration in there. 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:41.120 Yeah you cannot discredit that. 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:42.560 We love you, Diet Coke. 00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:46.160 I I like it for a little burst of caffeine when I need it. 00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:47.120 Mm-hmm. 00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:49.920 Just a little one of my go-to headache recoveries. 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:53.920 Black coffee, Diet Coke, and a glass of wine if I'm not doing anything important. 00:04:54.399 --> 00:04:56.720 Glass of wine is your headache recovery sometimes. 00:04:57.040 --> 00:04:57.519 Or beer. 00:04:57.759 --> 00:05:02.879 Uh glass of wine sometimes for me too, which I know can cause it, but I think it's more the headache. 00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:05.199 Attention headache. 00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:06.879 Let's get into it. 00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:09.279 Disclaimer. 00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:20.079 All of the thoughts and opinions shared in this podcast are a reflection of our own thoughts and beliefs and not a reflection of our employers who shall remain unnamed. 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:20.639 Yeah. 00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:22.000 Okay, friends. 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:23.279 I'm locked in. 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:24.879 We have a weird one today. 00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:25.519 Ooh. 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:32.160 And when we say weird, we mean people in the 1500s literally could not stop dancing. 00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:34.560 I I I relate already. 00:05:34.639 --> 00:05:34.879 Yeah. 00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:37.360 Colleen, this one's for you. 00:05:37.439 --> 00:05:38.319 Picture this. 00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:39.360 Yes. 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:42.240 You're in Strasbourg in 1518. 00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:44.160 You've got no electricity. 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:44.720 Okay. 00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:46.000 No TikTok. 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:46.639 Boring. 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:47.920 No Spotify. 00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:48.800 Oh my God. 00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:52.879 And frankly, your options for entertainment are pretty limited. 00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:57.920 And then one day a woman walks out into the street and just starts dancing. 00:05:58.160 --> 00:05:58.319 Oh. 00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:00.720 And she just keeps dancing. 00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:02.160 She got ants in her pants. 00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:03.759 It was a woman who started it. 00:06:03.920 --> 00:06:07.600 I'm immediately thinking they're gonna call call like she's a witch. 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:08.319 Well. 00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:09.199 A witch. 00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:09.600 Okay. 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:12.160 Like you're probably thinking, Barbara's having a moment. 00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:13.759 We'll just let her work it out, right? 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:14.160 No. 00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:17.519 Except that Barbara does not work it out. 00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:18.879 She dances it out. 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:22.879 And then somebody else. 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:30.879 And suddenly you have dozens, nay, hundreds, of people dancing uncontrollably through the streets. 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:31.519 Well. 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:35.839 Some accounts say people dance for days, collapsing from exhaustion. 00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:38.079 There are even reports of deaths. 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:47.839 So today we're going to put on our extremely questionable medieval detective hats and try to figure out what the hell happened during the dancing plague of 1518. 00:06:48.160 --> 00:06:54.000 So, guys, I'm gonna kind of tell you the story here, and then we're gonna get into a medical discussion at the end, okay? 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:54.959 Yeah, okay. 00:06:55.360 --> 00:07:17.279 According to the legend, uh in Strasbourg in July 1518, which is now part of France, but at the time was part of the Holy Roman Empire, according to the legend, a woman named Frau Trofea stepped into the cobblestone streets on July 14th and just started to dance without any musical accompaniment. 00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:20.800 Her husband begged her to come in for hours, but she refused. 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:27.680 She danced and danced until she collapsed with exhaustion, then she would rest before resuming the frenzied activity. 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:30.240 This continued for nearly a week. 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:39.519 Authorities sent her thirty miles by wagon to Severn to be cured at the shrine of Saint Vitus, a saint they believed had cursed her. 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:42.240 Let me pause for a moment and tell you about Saint Vitus. 00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:49.759 He was supposedly a young Christian martyr from Sicily, believed to have died around 303 AD during the persecution of Christians. 00:07:49.920 --> 00:08:00.959 According to a traditional story, he was only about twelve years old, and he was subjected to various tortures and was eventually thrown into a cauldron of boiling oil, yet miraculously he survived that particular torture. 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:02.000 What the hell? 00:08:02.240 --> 00:08:06.160 He became known for the way that he bopped around while being boiled alive. 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:08.000 God, he probably lost all his skin. 00:08:08.240 --> 00:08:14.959 He became associated with involuntary movements and dancing, which eventually gave us the term Saint Vitus' Dance. 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:17.040 Oh my god, because they burned him. 00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:29.120 He's traditionally associated with protection against epilepsy, Korea, animal attacks, snake bites, lightning, oversleeping, dancers, actors, and comedians, and even dogs. 00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:29.839 So St. 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:33.360 Vitus's dance is a term they use for two different phenomena. 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:39.919 The one is this epidemic I'm talking to you about, the best known, most famous dancing epidemic, not the only one though. 00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:42.159 And the second is Didn't Ham

Korea. 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:53.200 So this is a neurologic complication of group A Streptococcus, usually occurring several weeks after strep throat and characterized by sudden involuntary jerky movements, often affecting the face, hands, and limbs. 00:08:53.440 --> 00:09:05.200 It is considered a manifestation of acute rheumatic fever caused by an autoimmer spots in which the antibodies mistakenly target parts of the brain involved in movement, and then most people recover completely, but these symptoms may persist for months. 00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:07.519 St. 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:12.159 Vitus dance has been confirmed as a strep reaction to some type of strep infection. 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:12.480 Okay. 00:09:12.639 --> 00:09:15.039 But sometimes that does not but people also talk about St. 00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:19.039 Vitus's dance when they talk about this dance plague. 00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:19.440 Okay. 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:23.120 And while theories might be they were one and the same, we don't know that for sure. 00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:24.240 It kind of sounds like it. 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:25.120 Back to our story. 00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:31.279 They whisk our dancer off to the shrine of Saint Vitus in an attempt to break his curse on them because again, they're like, I think St. 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:32.639 Vitus has cursed you. 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:37.360 Before she could return a cured woman, dozens had begun to replicate her movements. 00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:38.000 Whoa. 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:41.759 Physicians blamed hot blood and said they needed to dance it out. 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:46.000 So the community arranged for like dance halls to be built. 00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:46.960 Oh my god. 00:09:47.519 --> 00:09:52.399 Brought in musicians to accompany the dancing and professional dancers to help the afflicted continue dancing. 00:09:52.639 --> 00:09:54.720 Hot blood makes me think were they feverish? 00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:56.399 There was no evidence of that. 00:09:57.120 --> 00:09:59.360 This is a quote from somebody's record of this. 00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:07.679 Carpenters and tanners were ordered to transform their guild halls into temporary dance floors and set up platforms in the horse market and in the grain market in full view of the public. 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:19.919 So to keep these patients, these dancers in motion and to exploit their recovery, dozens of musicians were paid to play drums, fiddles, pipes, and horns, with healthy dancers brought in for further encouragement. 00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:24.080 The authorities hope to create optimal conditions for the dance to exhaust itself. 00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:28.320 The problem with this is it actually led to an increase. 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:29.519 Yeah, it's in the world. 00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:30.960 That was one big party, right? 00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:32.879 This is the opposite of COVID era. 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:34.399 Let's all just get together

and have a dance. 00:10:34.879 --> 00:10:37.360 I'm thinking respiratory infection spread through air. 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:44.000 But how vastly did it spread? 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:49.440 We went from one to dozens and then dozens to four hundred within one month. 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:50.559 Okay. 00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:57.200 And these dancers were collapsing from sheer exhaustion, with some even dying from strokes and heart attacks. 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:02.159 Then the council, who had come up with this whole plan, was like, bad idea. 00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:03.200 Dance at home. 00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:07.200 No, we are now going to ban dancing. 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:08.000 Oh god. 00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:10.240 Which feels very footloose. 00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:11.919 I feel like I saw this in a movie. 00:11:12.080 --> 00:11:23.919 They said, quote, if honorable persons wish to dance at weddings or celebrations of first mass in their house, they may do so using stringed instruments, but they're on their conscience not to use tambourines and drums. 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:27.919 So obviously they thought the drums were like setting off the dancing plague. 00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:28.720 The beat. 00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:34.559 What I want to know is like, what was the personality during the dancing? 00:11:34.720 --> 00:11:35.679 Were they joyful? 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:39.120 Were they like, I'm so exhausted, but I can't stop. 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:40.399 I'm were they flipping. 00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:41.759 Yeah, were they miserable? 00:11:42.639 --> 00:11:46.000 Yeah, like what is the what was their countenance? 00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:49.039 They were talking, screaming, and praying. 00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:52.480 In the meantime, Frau Trophea. 00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:53.919 Let's just call her trofe. 00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:54.559 Okay. 00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:57.440 She comes back and she is cured. 00:11:57.840 --> 00:12:00.320 From the she went to the shrine of St. 00:12:00.559 --> 00:12:00.960 Vitus. 00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:06.320 And so now that they're like, well, dancing it out didn't cure them of the hot blood. 00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:12.799 So maybe we need maybe they really are all cursed, and we need to send all these sufferers to the shrine to be cured. 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:16.240 So they would send them on again on this 30-mile trek. 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:19.919 They gave them small crosses, they gave them red shoes to wear. 00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:23.440 Um, eventually this worked, and the people were cured. 00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:28.559 This plague lasted nearly two months and at its peak was killing 15 people per day. 00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:29.279 Whoa. 00:12:29.840 --> 00:12:32.080 And this is not the only place this happened. 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:38.799 Smaller scale episodes took place in Switzerland, Germany, and Holland, but this episode was the deadliest and the most well documented. 00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:40.639 And

like I said, we have like notes from it. 00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:50.559 So someone recorded many hundreds in Strasbourg began to dance and hop women and men in the public market in alleys and streets, day and night, and many of them ate nothing until at last the sickness left them. 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:51.919 This affliction was called St. 00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:53.120 Vitus's Dance. 00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:58.399 Another recording from not long after this happened said that there occurred among men a remarkable and terrible disease called St. 00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:05.519 Vitus' Dance, in which men and their madness began to dance day and night until they finally fell down unconscious and succumbed to death. 00:13:06.159 --> 00:13:08.720 So I want to hear about the people who lived. 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:13.440 I want to know how long were they dancing for for the ones that did live? 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:15.919 Like when did they start showing signs of relief? 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:18.720 I want to know And what was related to that? 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:22.720 I want to know was there any relapse at any point? 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:32.240 Did and come back, and was it like an environmental thing where they left and because they weren't exposed to that environmental trigger? 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:33.360 Yeah. 00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:38.480 Like could it be like a chemical, like mercury poisoning or something like that in the environment? 00:13:38.720 --> 00:13:41.120 Right, like in like some sort of mineral in the water. 00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:44.559 Or like an aerotoxin and the dirt, the soil. 00:13:44.720 --> 00:13:45.120 I don't know. 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:47.519 You bring up an interesting point, both of you. 00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:48.559 Kids and adults. 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:55.519 Because if we think about, if we think about, I told you this is not this was the largest and most famous outbreak, but not the only one. 00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:55.919 Right. 00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:59.679 And so if we look at where, if we map them, where did they occur? 00:13:59.919 --> 00:14:11.120 They all occurred somewhere along the Rhine and Moselle rivers, areas linked by water, but they had different climates and different crops that they ate, like that they grew. 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:17.120 So trying to figure out like what is the connection, all they could really find is that they're they are on this. 00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:20.080 But what was there a trade route through this? 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:21.200 Good question. 00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:21.759 Good question. 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:23.440 That they were I'm sure there was. 00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:28.879 That yeah, that they were like, I don't know, some sort of good was being passed. 00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:30.879 But also, were they drinking that water? 00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:34.559 Is that their source of drinking water, that river? 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:35.440 We don't know. 00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:37.279 Yeah, these are good ones. 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:42.720 I just again want to go back to what did they what did they look like? 00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:48.559 Was it like they were dancing and like it was like a a complete personality change? 00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:49.120 Yeah. 00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:54.159 Like they're dancing and they're like, I don't know why my legs won't stop. 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:58.399 Like And were there any other symptoms building up before the dancing? 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:10.000 It does not sound as though there were any preceding symptoms because the story is that they just walked out and started dancing, like walked out, and her husband was like, Enough, come on in. 00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:12.720 And she was like, I'm dancing. 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:21.039 I'm with you though, Kate, because I was like, are they like having like spastic movements that were like, oh, it's dancing, or are they boogieing? 00:15:21.279 --> 00:15:24.000 I have like I would like more specifics as well. 00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:32.879 And I want to know, like, were the dancing movements similar at all to anyone else's movement? 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:33.600 Yeah. 00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:36.399 They present the same way, I guess. 00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:37.440 That's a good point. 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:40.080 So you really want your you want your old carts. 00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:45.759 You want to know about what it came on, what the procedure associated symptoms were. 00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:50.879 When did it like nothing relieved or exacerbated it that we know of? 00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:52.799 What did the people who survived do differently? 00:15:53.200 --> 00:15:54.320 And what's our demographic? 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:55.759 Is there a certain age? 00:15:56.080 --> 00:15:59.200 Okay, well let me ask you this before I give you the theories. 00:15:59.440 --> 00:15:59.840 Mm-hmm. 00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:04.320 What are your what are your differentials here? 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:12.000 Um, I think we said like neurotoxin, something in the drinking water or in their food or in the minerals. 00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:13.600 Could be respiratory spread. 00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:15.039 It could be respiratory spread. 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:34.559 Yeah, I'm thinking either neurotoxin or some sort of infectious like a neurotoxin from contaminated water, food, something they're ingesting in their environment some sort of infectious cause that's attacking spinal cord where your risk stems from. 00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:37.679 Yeah, is this a type of meningitis situation? 00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:43.679 But again, we the only symptom that we have that we know of is quote dancing. 00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:46.159 We have no idea what the symptom looks like. 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:51.200 Again, I I just wish we had more understanding of the symptomology. 00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:53.279 So this happened today. 00:16:53.759 -->

00:16:55.039 600 years later. 00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:55.360 Uh huh. 00:16:55.759 --> 00:17:03.919 Other than doing a much better old parts review of system and physical exam, is there any kind of diagnostics we we would be getting? 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:07.680 We can't I think immediately you're getting a CBC BMP. 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:09.200 Let's look at these electrolytes. 00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:10.799 Are are lights off? 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:13.519 Or are they having like a white count? 00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:16.480 Are they showing blood work reflective of infection? 00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:25.839 But I tell you that they they've gotta have if they're all dying, they've gotta be dying of like rhabdo, dehydration, kidney injuries. 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:26.319 Yes. 00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:27.839 So you know they're electrolytes. 00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:29.039 Blood sugar whack. 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:30.319 Blood sugar. 00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:32.400 Everyone knows the first thing you do is check a blood sugar. 00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:32.799 Yeah. 00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:36.640 I think you do an LP, see if there's anything in the CSF. 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:40.400 Would we even be able to if they're non-stop flexing and moving? 00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:42.240 Or you can sedate them. 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:42.960 Well, yeah. 00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:46.480 Well, but do their twitching stop completely if they're sedated? 00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:48.079 You would paralyze it. 00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:49.039 Yeah, okay. 00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:49.920 So paralytic. 00:17:50.160 --> 00:18:06.000 Or you but also if it is some sort of like like seizures like propofol, we're gonna get we're gonna check our blood count to look for kind of any kind of infection, and then check our electrolytes and our kidney function, and we're gonna get a lumbar puncture to look if there's any infection in our spinal fluid. 00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:10.079 Yeah, can you jump straight to an LP or do you have to do imaging at all first? 00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:13.119 I would get an MRI. 00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:14.640 Is that an MRI here? 00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:18.960 I I think an MRI is good, but I think you gotta paralyze them to do an MRI. 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:20.079 Yeah, yeah. 00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:22.559 I don't think that the dancing patient is gonna get an MRI. 00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:24.319 Yeah, they're not going into the tube. 00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:25.039 Yeah. 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:29.359 Uh I guess you could get a CT, but what's that really gonna show? 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:32.480 Well, it may it tells you that they're not gonna hurt the NLP. 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:34.319 Yeah, and then you can get an MRI. 00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:37.920 I think we need an EEG, and we definitely need like a toxicology screen. 00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:39.759 Oh yeah, tox screen for sure. 00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:44.079 So maybe in 2026 we could solve this mystery. 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:45.920

But oh, you think they were all gonna next? 00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:49.119 These 1500s, like the they're all on Molly. 00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:50.079 Oh. 00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:54.240 But I mean, I'm talking about toxicology, like I'm looking like chemical exposure. 00:18:54.880 --> 00:19:01.119 I know, but like what if what if they was maybe maybe they all grew some shrooms in general? 00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:03.839 Maybe we could have had some success diagnosing this. 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:07.440 Still would have been a diagnostic challenge, but maybe we could have figured it out. 00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:15.039 Unfortunately, we have none of that information that we just sell it remains a mystery. 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:17.920 So they prayed the gay away, you know. 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:20.960 Let me tell you about the leading theories. 00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:21.359 Okay. 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:26.319 The first one, like a mass hysteria or a mass psychogenic illness. 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:31.759 Do we have actual documented mass psych illnesses like this? 00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:32.319 Yes. 00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:33.200 Okay. 00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:57.839 So mass psychogenic illness or mass hysteria is not not in the DSM 5, but in general, the medical literature describes it as the rapid spread of similar physical symptoms through a cohesive group in the absence of an identifiable infectious, toxic, or other organic cause, often in association with shared beliefs, anxiety, or a triggering event. 00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:06.640 So again, this is a constellation of symptoms that suggest an organic illness, but lack any kind of identifiable cause. 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:09.200 So, yes, it's a diagnosis of exclusion. 00:20:09.279 --> 00:20:10.400 You have to rule everything else out. 00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:10.640 Right. 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:14.480 And well, they weren't really able to rule anything out here in the 1500s. 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:26.079 The World Health Organization similar describes it as a rapid spread of medically unexplained signs and symptoms within a group or setting, with affected people interpreting these symptoms as evidence of a serious physical illness. 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:30.000 So again, this these symptoms are not fake. 00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:32.240 The patients are not making them up. 00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:38.559 They are truly experiencing these symptoms, but they are a physical manifestation of something psychological. 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:42.480 Do you have to have a triggering event to make that diagnosis? 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:44.319 To call it her hysteria. 00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:47.839 Okay. 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:50.640 Is there any historical event in that era? 00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:51.920 That is such a good question. 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:53.519 There was a lot of stressors happening. 00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:55.440 Again, this is the most accepted theory. 00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:56.720 This is what most

people believe. 00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:11.279 But in order to say there was not an organic cause identified and that this is maybe a psychogenic illness, we really would have to rule out an infectious cause, toxic exposures, environmental causes, metabolic abnormalities, neurologic disease, medication effects, and other medical explanations. 00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:14.160 All the things you pointed out, which unfortunately we can't do. 00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:17.359 But most people believe that this is a hysteria. 00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:17.759 Yes. 00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:18.079 Okay. 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:25.119 But I part of that though is because they were like, like one person was like, she went out and danced, and her husband was like, come inside and she didn't come inside. 00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:26.640 And she just wanted to embarrass him. 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:27.519 Like, really? 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:30.960 I think because it was a lot of female, they were just like these crazy women. 00:21:31.119 --> 00:21:32.000 Oh man, that's awesome. 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:34.400 They all need to go be put in a tent, right, Kate? 00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:36.880 Oh, I really wish there was still period tents. 00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:38.240 That sounds lovely. 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:41.680 This is so the no one got this thing for three days. 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:50.960 So the basic idea is that extreme psychological and social stress produced genuine involuntary symptoms in susceptible people, and then those symptoms spread through the community. 00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:59.759 And at this time, Strasbourg had been dealing with famine, disease, disease, specifically smallpox and syphilis are what. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:30.400 were rampant at the time of this hey I wonder if there's a syphilis uh component specifically in females but they better make sense they didn't get and it was very rapid like syphilis usually takes takes a while yeah famine disease there was a lot of poverty there's a lot of social upheaval and there was intense religious anxiety and then they said on top of that historians feel like there people already had this cultural framework for what was happening because there was already this widespread belief that Saint Vitus could curse people with uncontrollable dancing. 00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:42.480 So in theory the stress created the vulnerability and then this cultural belief provided the form the illness took and then as you see other people affected it kind of perpetuates the outbreak. 00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:46.160 Oh okay so it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. 00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:47.039 Exactly. 00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:55.359 Yeah okay well that's one theory I just wish we we had more to prove the other things weren't possible. 00:22:55.839 --> 00:22:58.880 This is a cliffhanger because we're never going to be able to say no to those. 00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:07.359 If you believe this theory this kind of gets into our third our

throwback Thursday episode that's coming up this week which is about fully ado. 00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:08.000 Oh yeah. 00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:17.680 Remember we talked about the Eric subtraction and they had this shared psychosis and this idea is that two people who are really close can end up sharing the same delusional beliefs. 00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:23.039 One person may essentially reinforce what the other person is thinking until they're both operating that same reality. 00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:32.400 The difference is that that fully ado is like two people right a very small group and this mass hysteria mass psychogenic illness like hundreds is in a much larger group. 00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:38.079 So that's the that's the most believed theory okay what do you guys think about that? 00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:42.000 It's again it feels like they're working with what they got. 00:23:42.319 --> 00:25:05.200 What we know based on like the evidence or what was documented sure that checks every box but we also can't uh we can't check off infections yeah the second is ergot poisoning so ergot is a fungus that can grow on grain such as rye and produces compounds similar to LSD oh capable of causing hallucinations spasms and other neurological symptoms hold on and this is also a theory that the Salem witch trials yeah had I was like ring a ding ding this sound is a cause hold on who said neurotoxin along a trade route you think they're trading bread yes grain yes a hundred percent especially you said they they live in different yeah environments one of these environments 100% yeah so the exposure to ergot is called say Anthony's fire it involves twitching jerking and hallucinations and it's also causes burning pain spasms hallucinations seizures here's the problem with this the other thing it causes is gangrene from severe blood vessel constriction these people just dropped there wasn't any these people were not like usually right if all of a sudden your blood vessels constrict you don't get blood flow to your hands and your feet right your hands and feet are gonna fall but these people were like not losing hands and feet. 00:25:05.440 --> 00:25:06.960 They were but they were dying fast. 00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:12.880 They had all these symptoms except the gangrene and constriction. 00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:17.599 Well with ergot poisoning how quickly does the gangrene occur? 00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:19.119 Like what's the timeline? 00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:24.400 Because these people have just been so poisoned that they died too quickly for the ischemic changes. 00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:45.839 That's true yeah you're right yeah you're right never mind and does it is it seen in every case of ergot poisoning is it related to how much you're exposed to we ask great questions it doesn't look like there's really good rates of how many people but it sounds like that's sort of like the textbook symptom gangrene like this vasoconstriction. 00:25:46.079 --> 00:26:02.559

So I think if not for that this would be a very if they're dancing so much that they're not eating and they're dying of like dehydration starvation exhaustion they're pumping their blood then I feel like it should wear off right like those should shift and then they should be over it. 00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:05.440 I'm also thinking like are they producing urine and poop? 00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:10.960 Because what if they're burning it but not actually producing waste well that goes into like were they in renal failure. 00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:33.599 Yeah I was like were their kidneys dead yeah I mean I'm thinking about an LSD trip it's is like twelve hours maybe right I guess if if they're like LSD'd out they dance for 12 hours they get exhausted they sit down they have a piece of bread and then they trip again maybe but it just seems like you would have it wouldn't be like six weeks straight of dancing dancing. 00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:37.839 You would dance and eat at the same time as someone who's done it. 00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:59.680 Oh trust me I have pocket bread and I dance finger foods this is also people who are in like manic episodes like how do you help people who are manic who can't sit still you have to feed them finger foods right because we're not gonna just sit down and eat a full meal with a fork or knife but give them a chicken finger they can eat that and dance. 00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:01.359 You know what I mean? 00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:09.119 Yeah it's like a thing okay another possibility is that at least some of the dancing was connected to religious belief or ritual. 00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:17.119 Oh like may have believed they were cursed possessed or required to dance as part of a religious experience or attempt at healing. 00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:42.160 So if people again if these people thought that they had to dance to like heal it doesn't necessarily mean they were pretending the behavior again could have been like embedded in the cultural religious expectations and so maybe it was a mix of like that psychogenic illness and this culturally scripted behavior where they believed they had to dance to my only argument for that is like these people were dancing till they died. 00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:47.759 I don't think anybody has like the the will to dance like I think they would just faint. 00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:51.519 I don't think they would I'm gonna say I don't think they would dance themselves into rhabdo. 00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:57.680 I think in the 1500s people were a little tougher than our generations. 00:27:58.079 --> 00:28:01.200 I mean now people can't tolerate any discomfort. 00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:04.079 No but what I'm saying is like I think they would just end up fainting. 00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:05.599 I don't think they would die. 00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:08.480 I think that there would be periods of rest as well. 00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:14.400 Yeah I feel like it would be like let's dance and pray periods of

rest will be progen. 00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:18.160 And then finally it could have been a neurologic or infectious disease. 00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:18.640 Yeah. 00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:32.720 So this could be something like epilepsy or chorea encephalitis uh which is like an inflammation of the brain but the problem is I would say that none of these really explain the phenomenon like so what everyone just had epilepsy right? 00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:36.240 Yeah it makes no sense that those are not generally like transmissible. 00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:42.400 That's I think Kate's theory with something being transported down the river goods through trait. 00:28:42.799 --> 00:29:02.960 I think too with these neurologic conditions like again epilepsy doesn't really just like come and then go without any real like treatment right encephalitis doesn't usually there's preemptive get better without you know immunosuppression or antibiotic also none of them go like from like nothing to dancing. 00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:06.000 Again or as I mentioned this could have been a combination of factors. 00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:24.559 So it could have been kind of an interaction of the challenges they face this like mass psychogenic illness the kind of accepted cultural behavior and kind of religious you know views at that time and they all just kind of came together into this perfect storm at the exact wrong time and and that's what happened. 00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:36.079 I want to know more yeah I have questions and I want to go back to the the ergot you said it it was was it all peripheral vasculatus or was it like major blood vessels? 00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:36.559 I don't know. 00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:39.039 I guess it would be worse if it was major blood vessels. 00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:46.559 Well well some of them did yeah you said like had heart attacks and strip maybe there's other funguses that cause these things though. 00:29:46.960 --> 00:30:05.599 Do you think that like the neurosymptoms of like spasic movements and like quote dancing that sort of like offset like a vasculitis type like to because you your body is like put trying to give blood to your muscles. 00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:13.200 And flowing from that could they have been twitching and dancing because they were in pain you know what I mean like trying to shake it into their footers. 00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:24.960 They were shaking their hand out for you have no idea what they were doing Megan okay I'm just trying to picture their hand hurt so bad I'm just thinking ooh my finger my toes hurt my toe or like my toes feel numb. 00:30:25.039 --> 00:30:26.559 Let me shake it shake that thing. 00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:40.000 I just I just wish what was beside I yes I know I keep coming back to like there has to be more than just dancing and there was a lot of talk about their feet being shredded and bleeding and they were screaming about the pain in their feet. 00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:50.480 Okay so gangrenous but I don't think it's gangrenous as much as like blistering because you've been dancing for or they have such arterial pain that they're trying to shake the blood back into it. 00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:55.119 Yeah you know when people are in that much pain they don't sit still that's true. 00:30:55.279 --> 00:30:59.920 Like I'm thinking sickle cell they're twitchy because they're every part of them hurts. 00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:15.359 Arterial plane they're moving because it hurts but I guess I'm constantly rubbing this person in a bed and I don't but I feel like I've I've seen that but I don't know if that equates to dancing but also you don't know that they were for sure dancing. 00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:23.440 They were also reciting Christian deities praying frantically and speaking in tongues and they were unable to hold a normal sane conversation. 00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:31.279 They were crying out like help me to stop because that was the only way they knew how to get help that could be a reason. 00:31:31.839 --> 00:31:37.359 I don't think it necessarily points to you know mania. 00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:48.079 I think it's ergant yeah I don't I don't discredit I I'm definitely still leaning more towards infectious or neurotoxic along a trade route. 00:31:48.400 --> 00:32:02.960 You're welcome I'm just thinking okay infection it would have to be what viral yeah they didn't get treated with any antibiotic or antifungal or just infectious it would have to be people with strong immune systems survived. 00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:03.920 That's true. 00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:08.000 It's funny that they called it the hot blood always the hot blood. 00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:15.359 I guess I just think about we always treat neuroinfections like encephalitis. 00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:36.720 It's always either like turn down the immune system right like immunosuppressants or it's like there's an infection you got to treat the infection a cycloder antiviral uh you know antibiotics for for bacterial antifungal if we think it's a fungal but they didn't have those things I I just don't think of any patient yeah but they got better is what I'm saying. 00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:49.759 Because though it's Darwinism those that could survive survived you could have bacteria in your brain and you don't need antibiotics and you could like beat it on your own that feels inaccurate. 00:32:50.000 --> 00:33:15.119 How do you think we still have people after the plague they weren't giving medicine to the people in the plague but they were giving antibiotics then and people still survived smallpox people still survived I'm just saying we have evidence of people surviving without modern day treatment so yeah I agree with Colleen how else do you think the human race survived we would not be here today if people weren't Darwinism with stronger immune systems. 00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:33.359 Also we don't but they could have been eaten moldy bread they could have been self-medicating with

without knowing you know what I mean they could have had natural penicillin without even knowing that's right too and I guess the bugs have all gotten stronger right because they didn't have and they didn't have penicillin so we didn't have resistant organisms. 00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:43.039 And there's probably people who might have gotten infected but not to that severity so before dancing and beat the lesser infection so then didn't get re-exposed. 00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:43.759 You know what I mean? 00:33:43.839 --> 00:34:05.279 Like you don't know you haven't given your opinion well because I don't know I guess I really was on the ergot and then I was like that there's no vasoconstriction and everyone is like that is like the textbook symptom and there's no story like these people were dancing and then they and then their legs fell off right yeah it doesn't talk about but we can that also doesn't mean it didn't happen. 00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:24.480 I feel like that would make the story though I think if they were writing a story if people are recording like I saw these people dancing what are the they also would have written fingers and toes were falling are the sources religious people though because if they wanted you to believe it was religious causing this they're not gonna write everything down. 00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:26.400 Can you trust your narrator? 00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:27.760 Oh that's a good point. 00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:35.119 And I also think there's something to be said about like the only people that were probably writing anything down were men. 00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:36.000 Yeah. 00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:40.480 So I don't think you can trust everything when we're talking about historical events like this. 00:34:40.719 --> 00:34:45.440 No I I agree but I I guess I'm just thinking that like a first hand account. 00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:49.199 Well they're gonna think that's gross to talk about so I'm not gonna write that down. 00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:53.199 There's an argument for that there is no I I I agree. 00:34:53.599 --> 00:34:55.360 I think it's very not likely. 00:34:55.519 --> 00:35:03.360 I think you we're I'm sure they probably weren't losing fingers and toes but there's an argument we can't completely say no to that. 00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:13.920 I mean bleeding feet Megan I mean they did write about the bleeding feet yeah that's but bleeding feet is not the same as vasoconstriction with black toes. 00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:18.719 You don't go from zero to black toes there's an im there's a middle ground there. 00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:26.079 Yeah I I guess I'm just what you're thinking like early when it's just looking like bruised or you develop an ulcer before it dies off. 00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:33.519 I'm really just trying to think about all the vasopressor injuries I've seen and I feel like they start purpling like like a bruise. 00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:45.840 So maybe maybe it was a mass psychogenic illness I guess I

maybe mint I it sounds like Megan is not on board with ergot but Colleen and I are on board with ergot yeah I think fungal I think fungal had a part to play. 00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:46.400 Okay. 00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:48.880 Or something that was passed down the trade route. 00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:53.199 Yeah neurotoxin down the trade route that's my final answer. 00:35:53.519 --> 00:36:05.679 Okay yeah and Megan doesn't like to theorize about anything so no Megan can't handle no hard well if I had a if I had a strong feeling then this wouldn't be a mystery would it? 00:36:06.159 --> 00:36:16.719 No well yeah but that's what we're doing we're trying to solve mysteries and that's solved in my brain erg okay all right well I might go so I might go psychogenic illness. 00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:21.840 Okay all right she sounds uncon she just like I have to choose an answer. 00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:23.599 She's upset that we had good points. 00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:36.960 I think that's gonna be most likely of the options we've talked about if you give me if you say our top two are most likely are I would say erg and and psychogenic that I think I would have to say of those two I was psychogenic. 00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:38.719 Okay. 00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:42.400 So you just like everybody got stressed and started dancing. 00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:47.679 Of all the things I feel like you are more black and white than that. 00:36:48.079 --> 00:37:02.960 Well I don't know now you're shaming me I just feel like you're always like there's gotta be a different answer than that but you know I mean we believed fully a do that's true but that was different. 00:37:03.280 --> 00:37:27.039 That was different fully ado came off different but regardless I think this was a lot a fun discussion okay I'm sorry I can't but you know what it sounds like if we just go by decorum here ergut wins hey who's to say that ergot hasn't developed a a new sort of symptomology in 500 years. 00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:29.360 That's a good point Kate that's also true. 00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:31.280 What if it's evolved on its own? 00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:56.800 Yeah because of the the resistance okay okay there you go Megan um well I mean I think it's I think erg ergot no longer really it's like incredibly rare now by the way it's like okay well fungus is gonna kill us I believe that fullheartedly think we're all gonna be zombies by fungus there's not enough medication to treat fungal we're gonna just start giving people bacteria that's how you're gonna treat fungus. 00:37:57.119 --> 00:38:15.679 What if that what was that is like okay now we have to give people MRSA that's how it's gonna end yeah MRSA really what we thought was gonna doom us it's our safest our savior after all you guys remember when MRSA was like the thing wherever it was like oh my gosh MRSA that was before COVID. 00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:16.960 All right BC. 00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:25.440 Guys just a reminder don't forget to check out our Facebook and Instagram pages at three scheme queens that's the number three scheme queens all one word. 00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:40.400 We're also on Reddit same username if you want to check out our website go to threschemqueens.com and you can find links to our social media accounts our BuzzSpour page all of our episodes additional content and our contact page where you can engage with us and share any updates on the topics that we have discussed. 00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:42.800 Let us know how we're doing and what you want to hear next. 00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:47.840 There are also opportunities to financially support us with links to buy us a cup of coffee and links to our merch store. 00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:52.880 As always if you choose not to financially support us we appreciate the follows the downloads the listens the likes. 00:38:53.119 --> 00:38:54.239 Kate what should the people do? 00:38:54.400 --> 00:39:03.280 Yeah so if you like this episode and you like this new format that we're doing I want you to pull out your phone and text three people that you think would enjoy this discussion that we had. 00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:21.599 And then I want you to scroll on down leave us a five star review like us on Instagram share us on your social medias interact with us on our social media platform and yeah all right thanks for listening good see you next Tuesday see you next Tuesday see you next Tuesday